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Room with a view
07-10-2009, 11:29 AM
the deleuze thread and the k-punk one ?

Can anyone here help? I have been browsing the swatches of k-punk that can be found on the internet. I find it difficult to understand from these what k-punk is.

Is k-punk a sacred cow ?

should i read previous philosophies first before attempting to decipher his. is there 'a beginners guide to' or 'a k punk for dummies primer' i could attend?

The questions posed in that other thread were genuine. Is he someone i should follow, study, understand. is that what he wants, is that his purpose?

am i playing into his/your trap, about to be labelled a troll or grey vampire?

help

massrock
07-10-2009, 12:28 PM
He's got a book coming out. That might help. Or you could email and ask.

Actually I thought it was kind of interesting that he allowed this possibly quite sensible response from a reader on his blog recently.

If there's a new organizational model of the "Gods Gardeners" it is "live it, now." You may think that's mumbo jumbo when the potential for a real transformation is seemingly non-existent. But I am perplexed why many left-wing bloggers I read aren't aware of new organizational models that actually exist right now, especially for food. One can dream of utopia while living in a cold world, thinking of the lack of transformative capabilities that exist--or one can also activily participate right now in models that seek to emulate (even a little bit) what a better world would actually be like. It's not that doing so means that you believe in "Mother Earth", reek of patchouli oil and are ignorant of what a true transformation *for everyone* would actually be like and what that transformation would actually require-----it's more that if you don't act and don't create "new modes of organization and management" *right now* you'll feel like you'll life will have been wasted.
Has something changed?

massrock
07-10-2009, 12:44 PM
I'm answering you seriously but really just read what the guy has on his blog. Do you think he's actually saying something? Do you think he knows what it is?

Room with a view
08-10-2009, 04:41 AM
he says an awful lot which i find obfuscates what he wants me to know. makes me think maybe he doesnt know either. what is the purpose ? revolution ? against what ?

the powers that be created the current global scenario by dumbing things down, using mass media and the education system to manipulate its zombies. its the zombie masses who consume flesh and body and force change, not the enlightened hi brow academics he appeals to. they arent going to revolt against anything. they might suggest something to replace the old with, but what is that?

generation why is looking for something to believe in, is he it ? is there a simple catchcry or a memorable slogan, to accompany the book, something i can wear on a tshirt or badge - 'turn on, tune in drop out', that sort of thing. if only 'turn on, boot up, jack in' weren't taken, then again maybe it doesn't matter who said what first. It's the thought that counts.

Sick Boy
08-10-2009, 05:45 AM
am i playing into his/your trap, about to be labelled a troll or grey vampire?


hahaha
I like this guy

john eden
08-10-2009, 09:44 AM
Unfortunately us "dope smoking dissensus dads" were a great disappointment to K-Punk.

So I suspect he would be loathe for us to defend him or explain what he is on about.

Even if we wanted/were able to.

Pestario
08-10-2009, 11:37 AM
"dope smoking dissensus dads"

ha yes I remember this

good times

Mr. Tea
08-10-2009, 11:56 AM
ha yes I remember this

good times

Whatwhatwhat? [/Kyle's mom]

You've only been here a couple of years, I thought this happened ages ago, when I was a wee n00b myself? Link, anyone?

Pestario
08-10-2009, 11:57 AM
I've been lurking for a long time

john eden
08-10-2009, 11:59 AM
http://dissensus.com/showthread.php?t=3893

vimothy
08-10-2009, 12:21 PM
K-Punk is heroic.

padraig (u.s.)
08-10-2009, 12:43 PM
reading K-punk almost makes me want to root for capitalism. tho tbf, I get that feeling from a lot of theory-heavy [insert brand name of Marxism]. the sheer ivory tower irrelevance of it all can be kinda overwhelming.


Politeness is the first line of defence for the existing order

yes, let's all be jerks to each other. surely that will bring the murderous spectre of Kapitalism to its knees.

john eden
08-10-2009, 12:56 PM
yes, let's all be jerks to each other. surely that will bring the murderous spectre of Kapitalism to its knees.

I think there might be a point in there about bourgeois morality and manners being repressive.

But obviously that doesn't have to mean a total rejection of civility - even it if sounds weally wadical.

In any case, being a shouty cunt is also a bulwark of kapitalism.

padraig (u.s.)
08-10-2009, 01:02 PM
I think there might be a point in there about bourgeois morality and manners being repressive.

nah, I've picked up on that. I just find it amusing that it's always bourgeois intellectuals who think that manners are (solely) a bourgeois affectation. quite easy to shout for chaos & upheaval from the sidelines.

surely worrying about people being too nice to each other is a sign of having too much time on your hands?

vimothy
08-10-2009, 01:08 PM
Maybe you could look at liberalism as a political philosophy that could be caricatured as "politeness" -- everyone is free to have their own opinions as long as they don't impinge on anyone else. But this it is precisely this politeness that prevents anything more radical from emerging and disrupting the capitalist real. K-Punk is at war with liberalism (aka being polite).

john eden
08-10-2009, 01:24 PM
Maybe you could look at liberalism as a political philosophy that could be caricatured as "politeness" -- everyone is free to have their own opinions as long as they don't impinge on anyone else. But this it is precisely this politeness that prevents anything more radical from emerging and disrupting the capitalist real. K-Punk is at war with liberalism (aka being polite).

You could look at it like that I guess, but I don't see that as being very useful. I think what k-punk was doing was basically justifying his preferred mode of discourse - it's fine to shout at people and misrepresent their positions, and demand people are banned (because that is "antagonistic", which is good, mkay?)

But it isn't ok to take the piss out of people who do that for being wankers, or to suggest that they are banned.

Also, shouty and impolite disruption has been thoroughly commodified since punk, surely?

massrock
08-10-2009, 01:31 PM
K-Punk is at war with liberalism (aka being polite).
Did you ever see the episode of Futurama where Zap Brannigan declares war on the Neutral Planet?

vimothy
08-10-2009, 01:34 PM
It would be difficult to say of anyone whether their philosophy was constructed to justify their preferred social mode, or vice versa. How could you know? I couldn't even say that for sure about myself.

Re K-Punk specifically, I'm not in agreement--just trying to describe a position and that's what I see. He who shall not be named as well.

vimothy
08-10-2009, 01:37 PM
Did you ever see the episode of Futurama where Zap Brannigan declares war on the Neutral Planet?

"Live Free or Don't."

STN
08-10-2009, 01:57 PM
I do often wonder how many of the people who grandstand about antagonistic discourse and flouting bourgeouis manners would actually be prepared to be rude or aggressive in person. I suspect not very many.

I read k-punk's blog and it is interesting - I wouldn't live my life by it, and I doubt he seriously expects me to.

Mr. Tea
08-10-2009, 03:31 PM
Maybe you could look at liberalism as a political philosophy that could be caricatured as "politeness" -- everyone is free to have their own opinions as long as they don't impinge on anyone else. But this it is precisely this politeness that prevents anything more radical from emerging and disrupting the capitalist real. K-Punk is at war with liberalism (aka being polite).

But* this is just another stupid false dichotomy: that the only alternatives are on the one hand "liberalism" (in the perjorative sense used by the significantly-more-radical-than-yow, which means speaking only when spoken to, minding Ps and Qs, not rocking the boat, and every other cliche of PC MOR milquetoaste inoffensive** relativism); and on the other hand, screaming "FASCIST!!!" in the face of anyone with the temerity to question your convictions. I mean, whatever happened to vigorous (but civilised) and impassioned (but informed, reasoned, mature) debate? I mean, I hope that's not a totally oxymoronic idea, is it?


Also, the word 'bourgeois' cracks me up. Especially when people use it, invariably as an insult, without realising that this is pretty much the most bourgeois thing you can possibly say. It's like hipsters banging on all the time about how awful hipsters are, or something.


*obvs I'm aware you're not arguing your own position here exactly
**that said, I think the near-orthodoxy that the worst thing you possibly do is offend someone is extremely damaging to the standard of political discourse in this country

vimothy
08-10-2009, 03:56 PM
I don't think that anyone will disagree with that. [EDIT: Ha!] But I think that the more interesting aspects of this concern the position of the radical left. What is it and what can it do in the 21st century? Social graces aside, K-Punk's stance is that even radical opposition to Capital has to concede ground to constitute itself. To be radical is ok, pretty cool even, as long as nothing else is touched by this radicalism. Stay in your bubble and do what you want and make sure that you don't prevent other people from doing the same--the essence of "discussing Checkov and weaving their own fucking yoghurt" Guardianism. Liberalism is the new opiate; the cover that Capital advances under--don't rock the boat and you have the possibility of a moderately stimulating existance and even plenty of stuff to distract you from the gnawing abyss at the centre of your existance. Or something.

Tentative Andy
08-10-2009, 04:09 PM
Stay in your bubble and do what you want and make sure that you don't prevent other people from doing the same.

But surely K-punk's strategy of 'refusing politeness' and being either antagonistic or uncommunicative towards his ideological opponents will only reinforce this situation in the long run? I.e., in my experience (and confirmed by the way that many people on this board have responded to k-punk) if all you ever do is shout at people and call them names then quickly enough they'll get pissed off and just ignore anything you have to say, leaving you both trapped back in you isolated little spheres. Whereas if you have the patience to engage in reasoned, civillised debate with them then you just might manage to change their mind about a few things. You'd think that someone who is so vocally committed to 'rationalism' could realise that...

Edit: mind you, perhaps even at this level, there is a distinction to be made between the established, socially accepted forms of 'political impoliteness' - writing angry and provocative journal articles, blog posts, message board replies etc - and more public, active forms of antagonism - i.e. civil disobedience/direct action. However, even then I'm not sure, the lesson of various political summit protests over recent years seems to be that this form of protest is also quite easily contained. Also, unlike some sectors of the radical left, I'm very wary about glorifying/condoning violence of any kind.

john eden
08-10-2009, 04:23 PM
Which is fine except that I have been "doing things" outside a radical bubble and haven't found K-Punk's material to be of any use whatsoever - except perhaps as a signal of how not to do things.

Admittedly much of the internet and indeed left wing politics is a load of specialist self-supporting matey navel gazing. Chatting about Studio One matrix numbers or the merits of the Kronstadt uprising have exactly the same impact on the lives of ordinary people, but the former doesn't present itself as anything other than a hobby.

But, flippin' 'eck, it's not like K-Punk et al didn't construct a little matey philosophy/theory/bloggage network for themselves, is it?

Many of us Dope Smoking Dads have experienced some severe antagonism in our lives and workplaces. Sometimes circumstances force us to be beligerant. The idea that the high water mark of our political consciousness should be measured by how we conduct ourselves on an internet message board is farcical and misses the point of why I come here.

vimothy
08-10-2009, 04:31 PM
Andy: Naturally, I agree with that too. [More Ha!] An ostensible reason for a position, stance or pose is not the sum total of the story. If you were going to start out with an abstract image of a political philosophy and a network of people plugged into it, decide that this philosophy is both correct in its analysis and urgent in its prescriptions, then decide on a set of strategies that best realise this philosophy—perhaps you would be shocked when comparing the abstract ideal to the reality in the Zizekian blogregore. But why expect consistency from others? They’re just frail humans like the rest of us. I bet K-Punk is simply cantankerous and unsocial. Of course, I could be wrong. Maybe the story he tells is true. Maybe he’s embodying cold rationalism right down to his very core, even in the most mundane social interactions of internets message board etiquette. Heroism. Very impressive, sir. No other way to describe it. But it's just… well, that’s only a story and I’m a cynic. That’s all.

massrock
08-10-2009, 05:03 PM
the lesson of various political summit protests over recent years seems to be that this form of protest is also quite easily contained.
To be fair, of course it is, where is it supposed to go? That's not really the point of those protests though is it? Actually as long as protest happens it hasn't been contained at all, and I think a lot is learned from such demonstrations and encounters.

john eden
08-10-2009, 05:15 PM
To be fair, of course it is, where is it supposed to go? That's not really the point of those protests though is it? Actually as long as protest happens it hasn't been contained at all, and I think a lot is learned from such demonstrations and encounters.

There isn't a coherent reason why protests take place, so different people will have different views about what success is.

So for some going on a protest against the G20 summit is a way of bringing your grievances to the attention of those in power.

For others it is more about actually confronting those in power and perhaps even disrupting the summit itself (which was certainly the case at Seattle and Genoa).

(as well as banding together with likeminded people, having a pop at the old bill, trying to pull, and all the other covert reasons people go to these things...)

martin
08-10-2009, 05:20 PM
I think the problem's more to do with people projecting what they want or expect K-Punk to be onto the blog, it's not like he's set up as some guru to tell you how to go about your life. I actually think a lot of his stuff's very astute and humorous, maybe I haven't 'got it' 'properly', but do any of you seriously expect any one individual or source to give you all the 'answers' anyway?

massrock
08-10-2009, 05:38 PM
There isn't a coherent reason why protests take place, so different people will have different views about what success is.
Oh yeah of course, but whatever the reasons I don't think anyone (well...) would expect a protest to result in sudden 'revolution'.

nomadthethird
08-10-2009, 05:40 PM
I do often wonder how many of the people who grandstand about antagonistic discourse and flouting bourgeouis manners would actually be prepared to be rude or aggressive in person. I suspect not very many.

I read k-punk's blog and it is interesting - I wouldn't live my life by it, and I doubt he seriously expects me to.

I'm rude all the time and say and do whatever I please. What I write here is pretty much exactly what I'd say in real life, and exactly the way I'd phrase it, too.

Seriously.

K-punk has fun taste is music and films, but I tend to take him "seriously" in an inverse proportion to how seriously he takes himself. IF you know what I'm driving at.

nomadthethird
08-10-2009, 05:43 PM
But* this is just another stupid false dichotomy:

It's also not based in reality, at all, at least according to what liberalism means in the states: the "liberals" here (by which, I assume, you mean the free-market fundamentalists-- liberal usually means socialist leaning democrat here, but I understand it's the opposite in Europe) are the most obnoxious, rude, riduclous hyperbole spouting cretins on the planet.

Exhibit A: Fox News.

vimothy
08-10-2009, 05:51 PM
"Liberal" as in liberal democracy--the whole system, not a particular party.

nomadthethird
08-10-2009, 05:55 PM
"Liberal" as in liberal democracy--the whole system, not a particular party.

Well, then, the whole thing falls apart, doesn't it?

Cultural is local in many respects. In the American south, you have a culture where people put on a very dramatic show of "politeness" and genteel, gracious hospitality, but where, when no one's looking, they backstab like you wouldn't believe. In the northeast, and in NY in particular, nobody is polite, few people waste their time with conventional manners, people tend to be very blunt and impatient with phonies and hypocrites, and frankness is considered a virtue over being "nice". But there's a lot of comraderie and such, probably more than there is where people are "polite"...

There isn't really one way of being in the world because of Kapital or whatever.

padraig (u.s.)
08-10-2009, 06:56 PM
full of gems, this one is.


K-Punk is at war with liberalism (aka being polite).

yes, I get that. but liberalism does not equal "being polite", nor vice versa. in any regard, surely the front lines of such a war would be struggles against austerity programs in the 3rd/developing world/Global South (whatever the right term is these days) or somesuch, not on message boards utilized largely by lefty Euros & Americans.

not to mention it's a war that was lost a long time ago. such a crushing defeat that the victors can't even be bothered to get irritated at the agonal respirations of Marxism etc.


the word 'bourgeois' cracks me up....It's like hipsters

being a Marxist seems, on the whole, quite like being a hipster. but minus the fun, which is the only positive to hipsterism in the first place.

an inverse corollary to the "bourgeois" bit would be that anyone who refers to "the workers" or "labor" or "proles" is almost certainly not any of those things (which, admittedly, is a bit like getting after primitivists for using the Internet to spread their ideas about primitivism).


I tend to take him "seriously" in an inverse proportion to how seriously he takes himself.

this is a good rule of thumb for all "serious" political discourse, really.

padraig (u.s.)
08-10-2009, 06:57 PM
Actually as long as protest happens it hasn't been contained at all, and I think a lot is learned from such demonstrations and encounters.

everything John E said. but, also, having been to several "such demonstrations" - I'm pretty skeptical of any supposed lessons. every one I've ever been too has gone pretty much the same; a bunch of mostly white, middle-class people (if it's not obv, that includes me) converge on a city, make a token effort to connect whatever it is they're doing to people who aren't white, middle-class activists, everyone hangs out at the convergence center, there's the actual demo, some people get into it with the fuzz, most don't, there's jail solidarity, people write articles about the demo on lefty/anarcho websites, start organizing for the next demo. repeat ad nauseam.

massrock
08-10-2009, 08:40 PM
As it happens I was thinking more of direct action protests like reclaim the streets and the road protests. Seeing that you can have an immediate [positive] collective effect can be very empowering and gives people a valuable sense of possibility. It's also an opportunity to find out where shared values, oppositional and affirmative, might actually lie, in amongst the ambiguity, and to fine tune ideas and commitments in the heat of a situation. That's aside from any successes or failures in relation to ostensible primary aims or publicity for causes.

But the same applies to the anti-capitalism / globalisation (ill defined as those may be) protests. Andy said they were 'easily contained', the alternative scenario is that they immediately precipitate some kind of total societal transformation, but of course nobody actually expects this.

To me a 'demonstration' is more a demonstration to ourselves and to each other than a message aimed at any putative powers-that-be. That's not such a bad thing by the way, even if we all should happen to be white and middle class. ;)

I can agree with the scepticism to an extent, although that's really quite a banal thing to say wrt mass protests (and also sounds not unlike a hipster dismissal of hipsters...), but the gestures are still important in a number of ways I think, even if it's 'just' about young people sorting out their collective political compasses.

Whatever, this all sounds way to serious, but I do believe in people going out there and showing that they care about something or condemn something even if they can't quite agree on what that is.

Room with a view
08-10-2009, 08:45 PM
it all sounds a bit tired and untrue and altogether babyboomerish.

is it possible to organise 'the revolution' via web 2.0? blogging and twittering and youtubing and facebooking it into existence or will it only be a virtual armchair revolution as easily supressed with close circuit cameras at the push of a button with trial by established media. are there lessons to learnt from the supressions in china and iran?

if so what are they?...that the war is lost, abandon hope or is the lesson in insurgency and assymetric warfare in places like afghanistan and palestine?

what are the tools and weapons i should be arming myself with?... a good education some well connected and highly paid friends? a belief that god is on my side? not believing in god at all?

does anyone think k-punk has my answers ?

nomadthethird
08-10-2009, 08:59 PM
untrue

Isn't this the name of a Burial album?

padraig (u.s.)
08-10-2009, 11:20 PM
As it happens I was thinking more of direct action protests like reclaim the streets and the road protests.

as it happens, I've been to those too. not road protests, b/c they were/are much more of a British thing, but RTS, many Critical Masses, even some w/o catchy names, etc it's not much different. less people, more confused (or irate, if you're blocking them getting to/from work) stares from onlookers. and they're usually not very "direct".


To me a 'demonstration' is more a demonstration to ourselves and to each other than a message aimed at any putative powers

yeh, temporary autonomous zone, blah blah blah, spare me. I wish someone would've told me that the point wasn't actually to, yunno, protest the policies of the WTO or whatever, but to make us all feel good about ourselves. cos there's easier to ways to do that than catching a baton upside the head. of course if it makes you or anyone else feel personally empowered then fantastic. I find that, for me, teaching ESL classes or serving free food are 1,000,000x more worthwhile in every sense than marching around with a placard and/or getting into it with riot cops in some town you don't live in; if you're protesting something in the abstract, that's likely a bad sign. but that's just me, and maybe I'm just a sad auld jaded bastard.

padraig (u.s.)
08-10-2009, 11:32 PM
i
if so what are they?...that the war is lost, abandon hope or is the lesson in insurgency and assymetric warfare in places like afghanistan and palestine?

the idea of leftist bloggers attempting to practice "insurgency" is grimly hilarious (solid black comedy there for someone to make). 1st world insurgents have a terrible, terrible track record anyway - you can't be a fish with no sea to swim in - and they have roughly nothing to do with "places like Afghanistan & Palestine".

and incidentally I know I've disparaged K-punik a bit but asking some random dude with a blog to "have the answers" is a bit much, don't you think? I mean, dude, go get your own answers.

DannyL
08-10-2009, 11:46 PM
I think there might be a point in there about bourgeois morality and manners being repressive.

But obviously that doesn't have to mean a total rejection of civility - even it if sounds weally wadical.

In any case, being a shouty cunt is also a bulwark of kapitalism.

I ofen read these things in terms of the emotional tone being expressed (kinda derived from Reich). If someone is ceaselessly shouty and aggro, and can't show any "give" or compassion, then I'm not that interested. I think this kind of thing is incredibly under-rated and overlooked. A bit like the "covert reasons" Eden mentions for involving oneself in activism above

Mr. Tea
09-10-2009, 12:13 AM
I wish someone would've told me that the point wasn't actually to, yunno, protest the policies of the WTO or whatever, but to make us all feel good about ourselves.

The one that really gets me is the classic anti-war "Not in my name", which to me sounds a bit too much like "Go bomb the fuck out out of whoever you like as long as there's no stain on my impeccable liberal conscience". I dunno, am I reading too much into it? Almost certainly.

But anyway, this thread made me look back at the Anarchism thread, where most of the posters (and no offence to anyone intended) were like "Well I read some Bakunin..." and "...is Kropotkin good?", and then padraig started talking about all these things he'd been involved in, local community schemes and work with in Mexico, and (without wanting to sound like a suck-up) I have a really massive respect for that. (Edit: that thread also had some top notch comedy relief courtesy of mistadubalina; I urge anyone who hasn't read it to have at least a quick flick through his posts and the response to them.)

I know other people on here have been do-ers too as well as readers and talkers too. :cool:

massrock
09-10-2009, 03:03 AM
yeh, temporary autonomous zone, blah blah blah, spare me. I wish someone would've told me that the point wasn't actually to, yunno, protest the policies of the WTO or whatever, but to make us all feel good about ourselves.
You should have worked that one out. The WTO or your government or whoever are not generally that affected by a few protests, but it is still sustaining for people to be able to come together and affirm what they share by way of concerns and desires and commitments, especially in the face of a culture of insecurity and atomisation. Normal people as well, not just 'professional' activists.

maybe I'm just a sad auld jaded bastard.
More like an adolescent snob who's so over those 'childish' things.

padraig (u.s.)
09-10-2009, 05:14 AM
You should have worked that one out.

but the point is to protest actual, concrete things. otherwise it's not worth doing. who are you reclaiming the streets from, exactly? and who are you reclaiming them for? how are they yours to reclaim in the first place? "affirming what they share..." - don't make me laugh, half the dudes are just there trying to pull chicks for crissakes (macktivists, as they say). that stuff kills me - oh yeah we're not here to actually do anything, just feel good about ourselves. symbolism is a waste of time, truly, unless it's grounded in something real.

now, am I saying that every protest against anything ever was a stupid waste of time? no, clearly not.


More like an adolescent snob who's so over those 'childish' things.

like water off a duck's back, bro. you're right though, I am over that stuff. I'm moved on to things that I can see having an effect with my own 2 eyes. and that don't require me to deal with the reams of subcultural nonsense.

anyway, I'm not stopping you or anyone else from fighting the "culture of atomization" as you put it so if that's your fancy then hop to it & more power to you.

vimothy
09-10-2009, 10:52 AM
Apropos protest movement, this looks interesting: http://www.amazon.com/Direct-Action-Ethnography-David-Graeber/dp/1904859798

massrock
09-10-2009, 12:00 PM
but the point is to protest actual, concrete things.
Well yeah, but not only or always. Sometimes there's an instinctive reaching, sometimes it's art. Different contexts as well, I'm sorry your experience seems to have been so unremittingly tawdry. :p

The road protests were/are about defined environmental and social issues but an awful lot more emerged from that.

I wasn't at Twyford Down or Newbury but friends were. Naturally I was behind the actions but I had my questions about the complexities and whether they knew exactly what they were doing or why, which they didn't, not entirely. For good or bad it did feel to an extent like something I wasn't very well placed to understand properly; I didn't live in those places, I didn't know why they were so interested or where they were getting their information from. But it wasn't about ideology or even strategy at that point.

In some ways of course these may be said have 'failed' but in my experience things like the Claremont Road protest (...spontaneous community, urban experiment, social support system, living art project, training ground, big ole party...), and the early London Reclaim The Streets parties (and yes, less visibly branded gatherings) continue to be inspiring and energising. Thousands of people attended and caught a view of something, even lived it for a time, right there in the city.

Reclaim the streets was initially about critiquing the privilege of motor vehicles and through-ways in city centres and assumptions about the way public space can be used. Reclaiming the streets for people and communities from noisy, polluting, dangerous levels of traffic. And the 'revolution of everyday' life, I won't denigrate the importance of that, of saying we can party here today if we want to. Ooh, a little inconvenience? (oh spare me the situationism, lol).

massrock
09-10-2009, 12:04 PM
The fact that disobedience makes people horny, despite the appalling levels of personal hygiene often involved, I don't know, I take that as a good sign.

massrock
09-10-2009, 12:14 PM
That does all sound a bit historical, I don't mean to mythologise anything, far from it. What I mean to say is, I might have moved on from certain things as well but that doesn't mean I can't see their value for others. Rites de passage, etc. etc.

john eden
09-10-2009, 12:24 PM
That does all sound a bit historical, I don't mean to mythologise anything, far from it. What I mean to say is, I might have moved on from certain things as well but that doesn't mean I can't see their value for others. Rites de passage, etc. etc.

I think it's also encumbent on people to have a historical overview though - certainly I benefitted from talking to people who had been through things before me when I was a youngster.

And it seems pretty clear that most protests against the g20 are a charade compared to things like the protests against the poll tax and even the big anti-war march.

Reclaim the streets I have a bit more time for but its tactics were contained pretty quickly - kettling, which has been a staple for these things ever since Mayday 2000.

There are numerous critiques of activism floating around - the idea that the most important thing is to be "doing something", especially if it brings people together and makes them feel good.

As padraig has said - there is nothing wrong with this if you just want to call it a rite of passage like passing your driving licence or losing your virginity or taking hallucinogens.

There isn't anything wrong with having a party, but it is a bit weird if that is the main legacy of the anti-capitalist movement.

padraig (u.s.)
09-10-2009, 01:22 PM
I'm sorry your experience seems to have been so unremittingly tawdry

do me the favor of not referring to "my experience", as you don't know the first goddamn thing about it. thanks.

"thousands of people caught a view of something"...yeah & that's just the problem. there's nothing there but smoke. 99% of that stuff don't mean nothing when push comes to shove. tell me man, what does that "view of something" do pay medical bills, look after children, deal with peoples' legal problems, psychiatric problems? does it even address any of the problems it's supposed to be critiquing? does it do anything for anyone besides provide a bunch of kids with an excuse to have a party? & look if that's what you want to do, again, fantastic, but let's not pretend it's anything earth-shattering and revelatory.

"the revolution of everyday life" is one those phrases that sounds nice & means nothing. a Situ speciality (see also; "be reasonable, demand the impossible", "beneath the pavement, the beach", etc) tho not unique to them. if you won't denigrate it, I certainly will. that attitude is ridiculous, fiddling while Rome burns, let's have a party! it's kind of creepy the way failures like Paris '68 (the Spanish Civil War is another one) get fetishized. I think a lot of times 1st world radicals would rather lose nobly, or worse have a good time losing, than win; I guess it makes sense, cos they generally don't have very high stakes in the game, relatively speaking.

I know the purpose of RTS & Critical Mass & all that. you didn't answer my questions. what gives you the right to reclaim anything from anyone? for "people & communities"? says you. what people? what communities? "assumptions about the way public space can be used" is another meaningless phrase, it's so vague & broad. whose assumptions? yours, I guess.

massrock
09-10-2009, 01:23 PM
And it seems pretty clear that most protests against the g20 are a charade compared to things like the protests against the poll tax and even the big anti-war march.
In the same way that wonky and funky are a charade compared to things like jungle and ukg? :p

Recuperation and commodification isn't it. But the poll tax and the Iraq war are much more straightforward things to get a grip on than whatever the G-20 are up to.

There are numerous critiques of activism floating around - the idea that the most important thing is to be "doing something", especially if it brings people together and makes them feel good.
It's easy enough to see pitfalls and drawbacks. Even something like the perception of having balanced news coverage can apparently allow people to feel as if things are being taken care of. The dangers of 'liberalism' again?

As padraig has said - there is nothing wrong with this if you just want to call it a rite of passage like passing your driving licence or losing your virginity or taking hallucinogens.
It's not like everybody should be doing or thinking the same things at the same time.

There isn't anything wrong with having a party, but it is a bit weird if that is the main legacy of the anti-capitalist movement.
I think everyone is waiting for K-Punk's book to come out so they can find out what anti-capitalism even means. ;)

padraig (u.s.)
09-10-2009, 01:28 PM
The fact that disobedience makes people horny, despite the appalling levels of personal hygiene often involved, I don't know, I take that as a good sign.

you'll excuse me if I don't find skeezy creeps trying to use the heady emotions demos bring up to worm their way into women's pants to be a good sign of anything.

john eden
09-10-2009, 01:32 PM
what gives you the right to reclaim anything from anyone? for "people & communities"? says you. what people? what communities? "assumptions about the way public space can be used" is another meaningless phrase, it's so vague & broad. whose assumptions? yours, I guess.

The RTS at Tottenham (same day as the Brixton one which I was at) was criticised explicitly for not making any links to local struggles and basically being a bunch of people from outside the area having a party there - messing the place up and even pissing in residents' front gardens.

This ties in with my recent comments about social centres: http://www.uncarved.org/blog/2009/09/hackney-council-vs-banksy/

everybody knows it can be hard work relating to people outside of a subculture. It is good that some people do recognise its importance, but pretending you are doing it when you are not (or actually, deluding yourself that you are) is the worse sort of narcissism.

john eden
09-10-2009, 01:44 PM
In the same way that wonky and funky are a charade compared to things like jungle and ukg? :p

Recuperation and commodification isn't it. But the poll tax and the Iraq war are much more straightforward things to get a grip on than whatever the G-20 are up to.

It isn't just old men having a go at young people - a bit of perspective does show you that things ebb and flow.

Objectively the 80s was a time when people actually made the UK ruling class shit their pants. Perhaps the high point of this was the huge resistance to the poll tax.

From what I know the period after the 2nd world war was also pretty good, as were the mid 70s.

The anti- war movement had the potential to kick off (and it certainly put the pressure on).

What we have now is a damp squib in comparision, but I am sure if I looked hard enough I could find some internet ranting from a 1st year university student suggesting that the G20 stuff this year and the death of Ian Tomlinson and the furore about kettling, and the climate camp are all proof that things are about to escalate into some kind of pre-revolutionary situation.


It's not like everybody should be doing or thinking the same things at the same time.

Live and let live maaaaaaaaaan? ;)

Well maybe let us be bitter and twisted critics, then...

john eden
09-10-2009, 01:47 PM
But the poll tax and the Iraq war are much more straightforward things to get a grip on than whatever the G-20 are up to.

This is a central point really.

I think you need the right tools for the job.

matt b
09-10-2009, 01:48 PM
The RTS at Tottenham (same day as the Brixton one which I was at) was criticised explicitly for not making any links to local struggles and basically being a bunch of people from outside the area having a party there - messing the place up and even pissing in residents' front gardens.


I've had arguments with RTS members over their policy of 'reclaiming' streets on a friday afternoon, thus pissing off everyone who wanted to go home and reclaim their lives, rather than on a monday morning when their employers would be pissed.

john eden
09-10-2009, 01:56 PM
I've had arguments with RTS members over their policy of 'reclaiming' streets on a friday afternoon, thus pissing off everyone who wanted to go home and reclaim their lives, rather than on a monday morning when their employers would be pissed.

but Matt, surely they are consumer zombies who need to be shocked out of their capitalist stupor and shown that it is possible to live life in another way, involving juggling, swearing at the old bill and fierce techno?

Anyway, there is no way you would get a reasonable turn out for an RTS event on a Monday morning, everyone's still in bed aren't they?

matt b
09-10-2009, 02:01 PM
but Matt, surely they are consumer zombies who need to be shocked out of their capitalist stupor and shown that it is possible to live life in another way, involving juggling, swearing at the old bill and fierce techno?


tru dat.

massrock
09-10-2009, 02:02 PM
I know the purpose of RTS & Critical Mass & all that. you didn't answer my questions. what gives you the right to reclaim anything from anyone? for "people & communities"? says you. what people? what communities? "assumptions about the way public space can be used" is another meaningless phrase, it's so vague & broad. whose assumptions? yours, I guess.
The thing about RTS style actions for me personally is that was then (mid 90s), it had it's moment and it's context and it felt important and relevant at the time.

These were things that happened in my town though, not someone else's. What community? A very good question and a big part of the reason. Crowded cities divided by cars, environments blighted by unnecessary road schemes. By nature of simply seeing that and agreeing a number of people decide to do something about it, take an executive decision. I mean it's only for a few hours, and it is essentially symbolic, but blimey what a transformation, how different it could be if more streets were pedestrianised. I can see how this is probably very different in an American context than in London. But in any city environment is hugely important. Architecture, road layouts, etc. are so key in fostering ways of life. I mean that should be obvious but sometimes a little intervention, a dramatic but peaceful gesture is felt to be needed as a reminder. These are our streets, these are our communities and cities.

I should say though that Claremont Road and semi-permanent spaces like Cooltan were more important than the RTS events for me. But they were all kind of a piece as people were finding their way with these things at the time.

matt b
09-10-2009, 02:07 PM
These were things that happened in my town though, not someone else's. What community? A very good question and a big part of the reason. Crowded cities divided by cars, environments blighted by unnecessary road schemes. By nature of simply seeing that and agreeing a number of people decide to do something about it, take an executive decision. I mean it's only for a few hours <snip>

That's the whole point- it was only for a few hours and didn't work.

A few people piss off a lot of people, rather than engaging with them (just because you are in a car, does not mean that you are loving it), or setting up practical traffic calming/car free areas within the local communities they are part of.

I'm glad you found it useful in some way, but it was no more productive than crying and wanking

john eden
09-10-2009, 02:19 PM
That's the whole point- it was only for a few hours and didn't work.

A few people piss off a lot of people, rather than engaging with them (just because you are in a car, does not mean that you are loving it), or setting up practical traffic calming/car free areas within the local communities they are part of.


What is striking to me is how completely different the process is to get something permanent and widespread operating.

Round my way there are annual street parties and various people campaiging to make roads one way. We had a bash on our common a few weekends back and various other people I know are involved with park user's groups, campaigins to stop pubs being turned into flats and all sorts of other things.

All of this has to be done completely openly, with full support of a broad cross section of people. There has to be accountability and long term relationships have to be established across a defined geographical area.

Also, I used to worry a lot more about social atomisation in my twenties - probably precisely because I was tied into subcultural stuff rather than wider society.

These days I know all sort of people round where I live - neighbours, people from my kids school, people I've bumped into on the street a few times, people who work in shops.

matt b
09-10-2009, 02:26 PM
Round my way there are annual street parties and various people campaiging to make roads one way. We had a bash on our common a few weekends back and various other people I know are involved with park user's groups, campaigins to stop pubs being turned into flats and all sorts of other things.

All of this has to be done completely openly, with full support of a broad cross section of people. There has to be accountability and long term relationships have to be established across a defined geographical area.


ugh, that's so boring, you square.

john eden
09-10-2009, 02:32 PM
ugh, that's so boring, you square.

yes I have to say that opportunities for it all "kicking off", doing graff, or taking pills are sadly absent from the equation.

DannyL
09-10-2009, 02:37 PM
yes I have to say that opportunities for it all "kicking off", doing graff, or taking pills are sadly absent from the equation.


John, it's Friday, you've got me number, let me show you a good time. We'll tick all of those boxes.

Tentative Andy
09-10-2009, 02:37 PM
Hmmm, things seem to spin off on a tangent since I mentioned direct action. I prob didn't explain things very well and certainly didn't mean to dismiss the whole thing out of hand.
The main reason I brought it up was just that it occured to me in passing that there might be more to the 'political refusal of politenes' or whatever we want to call it than just how you conduct yourself in conversation, spoken or written. I suppose I was trying to see k-punk's ideas in a sympathetic light, trying to find some application of them that might be more productive than what he himself appears to practice.
(To be fair, I don't know a great deal about what he does when he's not blogging or writing books. He might be involved in all sorts of practical political things, though part of me kind of doubts it. I do know that he attempted for a time to implement some of his ideas through his college teaching, but if I understand his recent blog entrys correctly then he has given this up because of frustration at the wider structure of academia and further education. That's obviously a shame in may ways, though I can understand where he's coming from, similar feeling were part of the reason why I never attempted to go into teaching after graduating).
But yeah, public protests... I am aware that a vast range of different things could fall under that (very vague) rubric, that they can generate some productive outcomes, and that they can have many valid aims that go beyond some dream of instant revolution/riot/meltdown of the city/whatever (which I'm not sure if I support, anyway). Simply gaining publicity for your cause by showing your presence can be a legitimate aim. Temporarily disrupting an activity you are opposed to can also be worthwhile, in that it can show the powers that be the depth of your opposition, and perhaps give them a bit of a scare, even if you know there's no real prospect of making the disruption permanent. And of course beyond this, there's the way that large public protests can bring people and groups together who may have similar beliefs but not previously had contact or been aware of their solidarity.
However, despite all this, part of me is a bit cynical and despondent about the way 'the public protest' seems to have become ritualised, become a spectacle where every group involved knows their role and plays up to it. The protestors get to meet up, have a bit of a party/sing-along, know that they're likely to get messed about by the police in a way that gives them a feeling of validation in their efforts, but also with the knowledge of their being a limit to the level of risk and danger they'll have to expect. The police know that they can contain the protestors easily, and get the opportunity to trample right over people's ordinary civil liberties, as long as they hold back from any proper physical stuff that might land them in prosecutions or bad publicity. I suppose in this regard the G20 was a bit of a surprise in that the police 'went too far', inflicted more actual damage than would be usual these days, at least when there's cameras present...

matt b
09-10-2009, 02:38 PM
yes I have to say that opportunities for it all "kicking off", doing graff, or taking pills are sadly absent from the equation.

and the shagging, don't forget the shagging.





k-punk would really despair of this thread rot.

massrock
09-10-2009, 02:39 PM
That's the whole point- it was only for a few hours and didn't work.
Well as I say, that was then. It might have been naive and idealistic but again I don't think anyone expected it to 'work' in any other way. I certainly didn't, I mean I went along because I was interested in seeing what people were trying to do, was well aware of the contradictions and the jugglers. The M41 party was fun though. But I think you'd have to slot it into a wider network of cause and effect to see how it did work as a step towards other things for participants. Even if it was a bit silly.

matt b
09-10-2009, 02:41 PM
(To be fair, I don't know a great deal about what he does when he's not blogging or writing books. He might be involved in all sorts of practical political things, though part of me kind of doubts it. I do know that he attempted for a time to implement some of his ideas through his college teaching, but if I understand his recent blog entrys correctly then he has given this up because of frustration at the wider structure of academia and further education

Was dep. editor at the Wire until recently, I think.

I doubt his poor FE students were overly happy being at the receiving end of his political experiments ;)

DannyL
09-10-2009, 02:46 PM
Personally, I like a lot of the Hakim Bey derieved critques which encourage you look for creative opportunities in your relationships with others - I like the emphasis on creativity and everyday interactions, rather than fantasising about the revolution though, I recognise it's not the same as the pragamtic work that Jon is talking about though.

I wouldn't want to throw this perspective out of politcs, why can't you have both? As Jon points out the mass mobilisations of the early rave scene made the powers that be shit themselves.

DannyL
09-10-2009, 02:48 PM
Was dep. editor at the Wire until recently, I think.

I doubt his poor FE students were overly happy being at the receiving end of his political experiments ;)

Can anyone link to anything where he talks about this? I have the impression (perhaps entirely wrong) that he was massively "disappointed" by his students - if this is true, he's doing something wrong. I tend to find them pretty inspiring but I'm not trying to project my political programme onto them.

john eden
09-10-2009, 02:49 PM
John, it's Friday, you've got me number, let me show you a good time. We'll tick all of those boxes.

It's good to know you have my back, danny!

padraig (u.s.)
09-10-2009, 02:49 PM
Crowded cities divided by cars, environments blighted by unnecessary road schemes...what a transformation, how different it could be if more streets were pedestrianised. I can see how this is probably very different in an American context than in London. But in any city environment is hugely important. Architecture, road layouts, etc.

you don't need to tell me. I've been a riding a bike day in & day out for the last 10+ years - it is, if anything, much worse in most American cities than it is London. the issue isn't whether the critique is valid or not, but whether or not the tactics & general mindset are effective in any way. which, clearly they aren't, but whatever. at least everyone caught a glimpse of your alternate reality before it got paved over.

I've been to exactly one effective RTS-type thing. it was in 2003, a Critical Mass on the morning of the day after the Iraq War kicked off, in a large city on the eastern seaboard. there was actually a surprising amount of support, b/c there was a clear goal & it got a point across. then in typical clueless fashion a bunch of people decided to do it every day - lasted abt a week, in which they managed to totally squander the impact of the original effort & piss commuters off to no end. didn't stop the war either, but you probably know that.


These are our streets, these are our communities and cities.

this is the kind of attitude - willfully self-deluded is maybe the best way to describe it - that I'm getting after. who is the "us" in "our"? I'm always skeptical about things like that, esp. when it leads to aforementioned white, middle-class activists (making no assumptions about you personally, as I've no idea) claiming to speak for some undefined "our". something is ours if I know you, we have some kind of connection, not b/c we have a supposed "community" as decided by you. community may be the most-abused words of the millennium.

that executive decision line is pants, btw. what it boils down to is that you (or your activist mates, or whoever) know better, know what's good for people even if they don't.

bob effect
09-10-2009, 02:52 PM
....a duck?

















one of its legs are both the same!

john eden
09-10-2009, 02:55 PM
Personally, I like a lot of the Hakim Bey derieved critques which encourage you look for creative opportunities in your relationships with others - I like the emphasis on creativity and everyday interactions, rather than fantasising about the revolution though, I recognise it's not the same as the pragamtic work that Jon is talking about though.

I find it hard to get past all the paedo shit with Bey and I don't like the secret society stuff either.

But leaving that to one side there is something worthwhile in the immediatist stuff about potlatches and exchanging things which you have made yourself. I think this and trying to be creative in every day life, crossed with general solidarity with people is actually very important in the things I do...

Sharing produce from allotments/gardens and organising creative spaces for kids, perhaps.

Of course the main way Bey is consumed is to organise a rave in a squat and neck loads of ketamine. You can then call this a Temporary Autonomous Zone.

DannyL
09-10-2009, 03:01 PM
True dat. But you can't blame him for that (oh, alright you can a bit maybe).

Everything is of it's time and I remember how exciting the rave scene seemed back in the late 80s - an explosion of potential - the TAZ idea seemed to chime with this. You could say the the padeophile undertones I guess - references other trends in radical culture - the "Kids Lib" stuff which happened in the 70s. I remember the Anarchist press being full of furious letters about this.

padraig (u.s.)
09-10-2009, 03:02 PM
Round my way there are annual street parties and various people campaiging to make roads one way. We had a bash on our common a few weekends back and various other people I know are involved with park user's groups, campaigins to stop pubs being turned into flats and all sorts of other things.

All of this has to be done completely openly, with full support of a broad cross section of people. There has to be accountability and long term relationships have to be established across a defined geographical area.

...Also, I used to worry a lot more about social atomisation in my twenties - probably precisely because I was tied into subcultural stuff rather than wider society.

not too much to add to this, it's all dead on (only I'm still in my 20s, I'm not one of you pot-smoking dads yet! though I'm quite looking forward to senility & all that;))

and it really doesn't take a tremendous effort to break out of the subcultural ghetto. I promise.

massrock
09-10-2009, 03:03 PM
Simply gaining publicity for your cause by showing your presence can be a legitimate aim. Temporarily disrupting an activity you are opposed to can also be worthwhile, in that it can show the powers that be the depth of your opposition, and perhaps give them a bit of a scare, even if you know there's no real prospect of making the disruption permanent. And of course beyond this, there's the way that large public protests can bring people and groups together who may have similar beliefs but not previously had contact or been aware of their solidarity.
Thanks for saying this better than I did.

However, despite all this, part of me is a bit cynical and despondent about the way 'the public protest' seems to have become ritualised, become a spectacle where every group involved knows their role and plays up to it.
Actually I think it was the sense of this starting to congeal in the 90s that was part of what led to people wanting to do odd little unsanctioned protests like reclaim the streets.

I suppose in this regard the G20 was a bit of a surprise in that the police 'went too far', inflicted more actual damage than would be usual these days, at least when there's cameras present...
Happened during the anti-poll tax demonstrations as well. Bad enough that it lead to criticisms of the Police and by extension a degree of sympathy with the protesters' positions from sections of society that might otherwise not have been too bothered. I mean that's part of what the tactic of confrontation is about isn't it?

padraig (u.s.)
09-10-2009, 03:09 PM
The protestors get to meet up, have a bit of a party/sing-along, know that they're likely to get messed about by the police in a way that gives them a feeling of validation in their efforts, but also with the knowledge of their being a limit to the level of risk and danger they'll have to expect.

tbf, this really depends on where/who. in quite a few places it's not unusual for demonstrations to wind up with people being killed. granted, you're talking specifically about anti-globalization things in wealthy countries where cops etc cannot get away with that stuff, mostly - not forgetting Carlo Giuliani. some people may also remember, from another thread, my old friend who got shot in the face with a tear canister by the Israeli Border Police at a protest against the Wall (speaking of which, theIsraeli govt declared his shooting an "act of war" (http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2009/08/18/18616513.php) - an unarmed man at a civilian protest - & so absolved the soldiers responsible. meanwhile, he's been in a coma since March. sorry to get OT but it makes my f**king blood boil)

even getting smacked with a baton, getting gassed, sucks. so does catching felony charges. one of the shittiest things is realizing that once the immediate jail solidarity is over you're pretty much on your own & good luck to you. the focus has moved on down the road to the next demo.


I wouldn't want to throw this perspective out of politcs, why can't you have both? As Jon points out the mass mobilisations of the early rave scene made the powers that be shit themselves.

I don't think the "powers that be" scare that easily.

john eden
09-10-2009, 03:10 PM
Can anyone link to anything where he talks about this? I have the impression (perhaps entirely wrong) that he was massively "disappointed" by his students - if this is true, he's doing something wrong. I tend to find them pretty inspiring but I'm not trying to project my political programme onto them.

there was something on his blog or possibly here where he was talking about a student who insisted on keeping his earphones in during class, even though there wasn't any music coming through them.

I seem to remember he interpreted this as kids having to be connnected to the matrix at all times yadda yadda.

But it now occurs to me that said student was in fact subverting conventional deference to teachers. ;)

IdleRich
09-10-2009, 03:13 PM
"I do know that he attempted for a time to implement some of his ideas through his college teaching"
If that's true it's pretty sinister and just wrong. Though maybe anytime someone imparts knowledge there is some kind of inherent subconscious bias or world view implicit in the process, it still seems much worse to deliberately try to force your ideas on to young people.
Do you have any evidence that he was doing that?

john eden
09-10-2009, 03:24 PM
Thanks for saying this better than I did.

Actually I think it was the sense of this starting to congeal in the 90s that was part of what led to people wanting to do odd little unsanctioned protests like reclaim the streets.


RTS was just as ritualised as any other protest after the first few, though.

1) Get crowd, get space, get soundsystem.

2) party and/or defend space.

3) Have ruck with cops.

john eden
09-10-2009, 03:25 PM
not too much to add to this, it's all dead on (only I'm still in my 20s, I'm not one of you pot-smoking dads yet! though I'm quite looking forward to senility & all that;))

and it really doesn't take a tremendous effort to break out of the subcultural ghetto. I promise.

Ha ha, but dissensus is pretty subcultural, is it now? :D

I figured you were older, padraig - in a good way!

john eden
09-10-2009, 03:28 PM
True dat. But you can't blame him for that (oh, alright you can a bit maybe).

Everything is of it's time and I remember how exciting the rave scene seemed back in the late 80s - an explosion of potential - the TAZ idea seemed to chime with this. You could say the the padeophile undertones I guess - references other trends in radical culture - the "Kids Lib" stuff which happened in the 70s. I remember the Anarchist press being full of furious letters about this.

different thread I guess - there was an interesting piece in the Guardian last saturday about this and the polanski stuff. Cohn-Bendit was quoted I think with some kids-lib stuff he definitely regrets now.

rave stuff is interesting - a great example of people doing something to have a good time and almost ending up being subversive by accident.

DannyL
09-10-2009, 03:40 PM
there was something on his blog or possibly here where he was talking about a student who insisted on keeping his earphones in during class, even though there wasn't any music coming through them.

I seem to remember he interpreted this as kids having to be connnected to the matrix at all times yadda yadda.

But it now occurs to me that said student was in fact subverting conventional deference to teachers. ;)


I remember that well. I thought it was of the most awful accounts about working in education ever - was desperately fishing for some kind of counter to this.


I don't think the "powers that be" scare that easily

I'm not too sure... don't know how well versed you are in UK politics etc but I think you can see the Government's reaction to the rave scene and the subsequent legislation against it, and the harrassment of "new age" travellers (John Major: "Not in this age, not in any age") as part of a continumn, that began with the Heath Government losing to the miners in the strike in 1974 - this moved through the Greenham Common peace protests, stopping off to bash heads at "The Battle of the Beanfield" and onto the Miners Strike. This is why I don't think you can segregate off partying from political protest, easily. When executed on a mass scale, it is scary to the powers that be...and in this instance, provoked a clear reaction.

I think the Government were frightened by the mass mobility aided by new technology in the early 90s - 10,000+ people turning up at Castlemorten - thus the Criminal Justice Bill and the harrassment of the travellers. The whole "alternative culture" that they represented seems to me to have been driven off the map - in part because it represented a challenge to hegemony.

massrock
09-10-2009, 04:08 PM
you don't need to tell me. I've been a riding a bike day in & day out for the last 10+ years - it is, if anything, much worse in most American cities than it is London.
Maybe in some ways. London is relatively crowded and a lot of roads are old and not very wide. Pavements are squashed and narrow, cars inevitably take up a lot of the available space. There's often not enough room for people to park their cars near where they live.

At the time also, and still but to a lesser extent, public transport in London was rubbish and expensive, and there were next to no cycle lanes. It seemed that funding and planning was heavily weighted in favour of private car drivers, for whatever reason.

claiming to speak for some undefined "our". something is ours if I know you, we have some kind of connection, not b/c we have a supposed "community" as decided by you.
Neighbourhoods can be a lot more local than the size of a city might suggest. We who live around here, nothing wrong with saying there's an overall community.

But actually in practice that's not how those (first few) street things manifested. Somewhere like Camden Town really has the feel of public space. It's so busy, it doesn't belong to anyone. And I was a local. It was nice, Camden could be great with less traffic.

that executive decision line is pants, btw. what it boils down to is that you (or your activist mates, or whoever) know better, know what's good for people even if they don't.
Nah, it's a bit of prankery, and trying to express something in the face of not knowing. Nobody was dictated to and nobody's life was messed up. It provided a bit of street theatre and novelty.

massrock
09-10-2009, 04:25 PM
Danny, worth noting I think that some of the exact same people who were already on the road and/or involved with the rave and free festival scenes, and who caught some at the beanfield etc., were instrumental in organising subsequent direct action environmental protests, they may have been involved before but being specifically targeted and criminalised had a certain catalysing effect, including I believe the much maligned RTS. I mean there was a certain momentum and unlikely solidarities emerged across cultural lines. Things that might seem now like ill conceived gestures at the time were parts of a wider response to what was felt as cultural suppression, for want of a better term.

massrock
09-10-2009, 04:28 PM
mass mobility aided by new technology in the early 90s
New technology? Portable generators :slanted:

bob effect
09-10-2009, 04:50 PM
I remember that well. I thought it was of the most awful accounts about working in education ever - was desperately fishing for some kind of counter to this.



I'm not too sure... don't know how well versed you are in UK politics etc but I think you can see the Government's reaction to the rave scene and the subsequent legislation against it, and the harrassment of "new age" travellers (John Major: "Not in this age, not in any age") as part of a continumn, that began with the Heath Government losing to the miners in the strike in 1974 - this moved through the Greenham Common peace protests, stopping off to bash heads at "The Battle of the Beanfield" and onto the Miners Strike. This is why I don't think you can segregate off partying from political protest, easily. When executed on a mass scale, it is scary to the powers that be...and in this instance, provoked a clear reaction.

I think the Government were frightened by the mass mobility aided by new technology in the early 90s - 10,000+ people turning up at Castlemorten - thus the Criminal Justice Bill and the harrassment of the travellers. The whole "alternative culture" that they represented seems to me to have been driven off the map - in part because it represented a challenge to hegemony.

This.

The free party/ traveller/ protest axis that originally had its roots in the sixties counter-culture has been completeley wiped out in this country. I remember a bit in CJ Stone's Fierce Dancing where he talks about thousands of people on the road in the early nineties, you can see why the authorities clamped down hard. It isn't exaggerating to say the government saw this axis as a threat, not because they thought that Parliament was in imminent danger of being stormed by hippies, but just by existing they prove there's an alternative way of doing things. And this is NOT ALLOWED.

vimothy
09-10-2009, 04:55 PM
I don't think that it's correct to say that it's been completely wiped out.

padraig (u.s.)
09-10-2009, 05:49 PM
don't know how well versed you are in UK politics...I don't think you can segregate off partying from political protest, easily. When executed on a mass scale, it is scary to the powers that be...and in this instance, provoked a clear reaction.

decently well versed, not with the strike of '74, definitely with the '84 strike & the old free party scene/Criminal Justice Act stuff.

honestly I dunno how different it is* from the U.S., the big parallel being the original Summer of Love. one of the problems with phrases like "powers that be" is how vague they are. the point is that - whatever politicians may have said in the media - there never was any serious "challenge to hegemony", certainly not from kids getting together & taking LSD or ecstasy. which, fine, but don't pretend it's something it's not. as if the great majority of these people weren't going to back to their studies/jobs & wind up buying back their youth in neatly packed nostalgia 10 or 20 years on, the same way the hippies cleaned up & become stockbrokers. honestly it's not as if the govt really had to do much to stamp it out anyway.

that's the problem with youth subcultures; everyone grows up.

I'm not deadset against parties, or against mixing party & protest. I'm saying, don't conflate hedonism with action. don't hand me some vague claptrap about "glimpsing an alternate way of existing" or whatever. there's too much deadly serious stuff going in every day in the real world.

(*one difference that should be noted is the power of labor, which was largely broken or bought out in the U.S. well before the 80s. Reagan did break the air traffic controllers, of course, but that's hardly comparable to the Miners Strike).

padraig (u.s.)
09-10-2009, 06:01 PM
We who live around here, nothing wrong with saying there's an overall community.

you're definining what the community. look, it's not that you're having your street party. it's that you're doing it in the name of something - which you're using for credibility. because "our communities" sounds a lot better than "activists having a street party". perhaps you are the exception (though I doubt it) but in my experience activists who bang on about "their community" have little to nothing to do with whatever they're claiming affiliation with.

I've been to plenty of real community festivals of the type John's described, they have almost naught to do with RTS-style business. they're usually a much better time. for one, no one's worried about being cool.


Nobody was dictated to and nobody's life was messed up. It provided a bit of street theatre and novelty.

that's not the point, it's the attitude it stems from, that arrogance. the assumption that your ideas are the good ideas. that was a problem I always had with activist culture, the assumption of rightness & the lack of critical self-examination (as opposed to guilt-tripping).

matt b
09-10-2009, 06:37 PM
there was something on his blog or possibly here where he was talking about a student who insisted on keeping his earphones in during class, even though there wasn't any music coming through them.

I seem to remember he interpreted this as kids having to be connnected to the matrix at all times yadda yadda.

But it now occurs to me that said student was in fact subverting conventional deference to teachers. ;)


found it:

http://k-punk.abstractdynamics.org/archives/007656.html


1st google result when you search: kpunk student earphones matrix :)

IdleRich
09-10-2009, 08:58 PM
whatever politicians may have said in the media - there never was any serious "challenge to hegemony"
That's true of course - but that doesn't mean that politicians or whatever weren't scared, if the kids could truly believe (erroneously) that they were going to smash the system isn't it possible that their elders did too?

massrock
09-10-2009, 09:00 PM
you're definining what the community. look, it's not that you're having your street party. it's that you're doing it in the name of something - which you're using for credibility. because "our communities" sounds a lot better than "activists having a street party".
Right well, this was nearly 15 years ago in another country, you don't know what my relationship to it is or was.

That said I think it's obvious, if it was framed that way at all by the rts people at the time, that community means all the people that live somewhere, perhaps specifically in that context people as opposed to heavy traffic passing through. But I don't even think those actions were intended to be justified or sanctioned on those terms. Take it up with them if you like.

But while we're on it I don't think people would have had a problem talking about 'activists having a party' either, except that I don't recall that many 'activists' as distinct from 'people'. Just like people weren't especially trying to be cool, well no more than is usual. That's actually one thing that made them good events, they were very unpretentious really.

I've been to plenty of real community festivals of the type John's described, they have almost naught to do with RTS-style business. they're usually a much better time. for one, no one's worried about being cool.
Oh jolly good for you. :)

It's not like these things are mutually exclusive or indeed haven't fed into each other though. Actually I can tell you that at the time of the aforementioned reclaim the streets stuff, which was one approach among many, some excellent local festivals in London (Debtford Urban Free, Clissold Park, Clays Lane, no doubt tons I wasn't aware of) were being organised with the involvement of many of those same people who happened to have energy, enthusiasm and resources. Yeah those same pain in the arse arrogant 'activists'.

massrock
09-10-2009, 09:14 PM
in my experience activists who bang on about "their community" have little to nothing to do with whatever they're claiming affiliation with.
Your experience, OK.

Sounds a bit weird though. I think people know where they live and what they are a part of. Are you trying to say that people aren't part of a community because they are 'activists'?

Anyway talk about your experience by all means but give the self righteous preaching a rest.

padraig (u.s.)
09-10-2009, 10:24 PM
Your experience, OK.

yeah, as described by me, not some dude who's never met me and reduces a good chunk of my life to being "unremittingly tawdry".

just about everything I've said about the pitfalls of activism could have been applied to me & most of the activists I've known, if that somehow wasn't clear.

I'm not sure about being accused of self-righteous preaching (anyway, guilty as charged, I'm sure) by a dude who can't stop turning people dancing around a soundsystem into some kind of gateway to an alternate existence. it would be farcical if it weren't so depressing.


Are you trying to say that people aren't part of a community because they are 'activists'?

more that activists often aren't part of "communities" they claim to be part of & that they often claim to be part of them for self/cause-serving reasons. though what you say is sometimes directly true as well; go to any radical bookstore/social center and see how connected it is to the neighborhood it's in.

anyway, we're just going around in circles, so. the dislike is clearly mutual, why don't we just agree to disagree. you can get on with your road protests, or whatever you're up to these days, and best of luck. I'll get back to what I'm up to these days. I'd say in 20 years we could meet up & compare notes & see how your "catalyzing effect" on a "certain momentum" or whatever worked out, but I'd just as soon skip that part.

hucks
09-10-2009, 10:53 PM
I like how people aren't being polite to each other in this thread. Meta

massrock
09-10-2009, 11:45 PM
yeah, as described by me, not some dude who's never met me and reduces a good chunk of my life to being "unremittingly tawdry".

LOL, come on you were being so derisive I had to take the piss.


I'm not sure about being accused of self-righteous preaching (anyway, guilty as charged, I'm sure) by a dude who can't stop turning people dancing around a soundsystem into some kind of gateway to an alternate existence.

Ha, really. No the thing is that I'm well aware of the criticisms of those events (though RTS isn't the only thing we've been talking about here) and I could have pointed out many of the problems and contradictions which made me uncomfortable with them at the time, it's not new information by any means. But I'm not a snob about it, I don't feel the need to make a show of distancing myself from all that. I can see the value it had and I can cherish some of those times as well. I had some friends involved in those things and there were some idiots as well. Many people attended just because the government had decided to turn dancing outdoors in the sunshine into a political act in itself. But obviously we are not talking about quite the same things in the same contexts. That's not a relative judgement, just a fact. No-one's trying to push anything on you or sell any idea but it remains that those events had significance for some people and were tied up in various ways with wider goings-on.

Anyway yes, this is all not only off-topic but quite possibly very boring as well.

I think people should actually try and get to grips with what they think of the k-punk oeuvre in this thread, that could be much more interesting. Take it easy padraig.

woops
10-10-2009, 01:33 AM
1st google result when you search: kpunk student earphones matrix :)

have you seen the carbon footprint of a google search, matt?

nomadthethird
10-10-2009, 04:07 AM
have you seen the carbon footprint of a google search, matt?

Nowhere near what you breathe out on a regular basis I'd guess...

Room with a view
10-10-2009, 08:01 AM
found it:

http://k-punk.abstractdynamics.org/archives/007656.html


1st google result when you search: kpunk student earphones matrix :)

wow...just WOW! now thats what i'm talking about. ties in nicely with this

http://www.newswithviews.com/Yates/steven.htm

forget the four walled classroom. is it not possible to make the net your classroom and teach/mobilise kids on line without the ethical dilemma of inflicting your personal politics on real 'kids'?

fuck reclaiming the streets, reclaim the schools, only make the school a blog, a forum, a network, a matrix. create one within the other and reclaim the matrix

so i'm getting that maybe k-punk is not the one, the neo, but rather he is morpheus, searching for the one and able to empower him with the tools to overthrow the machine.

or maybe he's 'eyes only' from dark angel. How does he seem himself i wonder?

scottdisco
10-10-2009, 09:53 AM
read his forthcoming book, maybe that'll instruct. it all goes back to Badiou doesn't it for K-P?

can i just say i think this thread is the first time i've seen where Massrock has a greater percentage of serious posts as against piss-taking ones ;)

john eden
10-10-2009, 10:12 AM
can i just say i think this thread is the first time i've seen where Massrock has a greater percentage of serious posts as against piss-taking ones ;)

Yeah, he really needs to up his game, I think.

;)

Room with a view
10-10-2009, 11:02 AM
read his forthcoming book, maybe that'll instruct. it all goes back to Badiou doesn't it for K-P?


i will. i just hope the instructions aren't coded for white middle class intellectuals. he seems to have been hinting at answers for a while though having spent a looooong time identifying the problem and framing the questions.

i just wiki'd badiou:). seems he was french so his works in english are transliterated. how faithful then are the concepts when thats done given the subtle nuances and slight misunderstandings of language from culture to culture? equating that to say the bible, in that the king james is a medieval copy of greek scripts translated from hebrew or something like that,shit is bound to get lost in translation.

sure the kernel of truth remains shrouded by the language so is it not possible to translate badiou for the hiphop generation? could k-punk do that?

nomadthethird
10-10-2009, 08:19 PM
sure the kernel of truth remains shrouded by the language so is it not possible to translate badiou for the hiphop generation? could k-punk do that?

he's probably not the first person who comes to mind as the go-to guy for translating things into hip-hop-ese

Room with a view
10-10-2009, 10:35 PM
to counter the dumbing down of the general populace requires translating higher concepts into easy to digest language. so continental philosophy/critical theory if it wants to be understood across a broader section and beyond needs transliterated again into lowest common denom language. for me thats hiphop and i'm not suggesting nerdy white rap ala the CERN thing.

in which case, who would you recommend nomad and do you think badiou or k-punk or whoever is necessary reading/hearing for young people of all ethnicities? if so then what format would you take for delivery of their message cos 4 walled classrooms dont cut it anymore unless you augment them just like waving placards around on the street is a bit of joke.

zhao
10-10-2009, 10:50 PM
do you think badiou or k-punk or whoever is necessary reading/hearing for young people of all ethnicities?
mark fisher is not in the same league as badiou is he. most of his stuff seems to be, as someone said, seductive but ultimately empty.

Room with a view
10-10-2009, 11:08 PM
he seems pretty hit and miss when his cyber-rhythm is not tuned to the mainstream wavelength but when it is, it's pretty inspiring. there was a 2006 period which i resonated with quite well.

its like he's still dancing round the fire instead of jumping through it. funny but i dont equate mark fisher to k-punk. its like the dual consciousness thing needs resolving between the virtual persona and the real person.

nothing says seductive and empty more than a militant dysphoriac living in the cold world :p

luka
11-10-2009, 07:59 AM
me and craner had a moment of terror when we first realised that k-punk could in fact be a genius. i remember it well. its when it first occured to us that the whole thing could be a joke. and that when we thought we were laughing at him, he was secretly laughing at us. taken as a comedy routine the whole thing is just perfect.

craner
11-10-2009, 06:40 PM
I remember that revelation. I think it was just outside London City Airport. We went white for a good 10 minutes.

Room with a view
11-10-2009, 09:19 PM
God i hope he's not a joke. on a personal note, i dont mind people laughing at me online but try doing it in real life and its an entirely different story.:p

http://static.bookdepository.co.uk/assets/images/book/large/9781/8469/9781846943171.jpg (http://www.bookdepository.co.uk/book/9781846943171/Capitalist-Realism)

in asking the question "is there no alternative", my hope is that he answers it with an emphatic NO, then proceeds to tell me what the alternative is and what i should do. is that too much to ask for ?

it'd be great if the alternative were as simple to initiate as my personal REVOLUTION. (http://dissensus.com/showthread.php?t=10019)

Mr. Tea
11-10-2009, 10:02 PM
I'm fairly sure rapping about continental philosophy would be pretty much the worst idea anyone has ever had.


Maybe it would be better if vimothy wrote some black metal lyrics instead (ignoring the fact that it all sounds like "EEEAAAARRRGHGHGHGHGH!!!!!" anyway).


Edit: can someone tell me what "capitalist realism" is? I mean, where does the "realism" come in?

Room with a view
11-10-2009, 10:41 PM
depends whos doing the rapping. surely it wouldn't be much different but probably as cryptic as the nation of gods and earths 5percent philosophy (http://comp.uark.edu/~tsweden/5per.html).

the trick would be to get someone like kanye or weezy to spit them.

Slothrop
12-10-2009, 12:28 AM
to counter the dumbing down of the general populace requires translating higher concepts into easy to digest language. so continental philosophy/critical theory if it wants to be understood across a broader section and beyond needs transliterated again into lowest common denom language. for me thats hiphop and i'm not suggesting nerdy white rap ala the CERN thing.
I thought that for a lot of continental philosophy, breaking it down in to terms that can be easily understood by the Brainwashed Masses (tm) without effort on their part would pretty much negate the point. It'd be like making punk rock that's nice and tuneful and doesn't have bad language, in order to make it more accessible to mass audiences...

Mr. Tea
12-10-2009, 12:47 AM
It'd be like making punk rock that's nice and tuneful and doesn't have bad language, in order to make it more accessible to mass audiences...

That actually describes a lot of the Clash's best songs, though.

Room with a view
12-10-2009, 01:01 AM
and the clash were the shit! the point is, for all they go on about language barriers obstructing truth, why not use the language of the masses and at least give truth a fighting chance to be heard. no one really gives a fuck how many big words you use do they ? depends who you want to get your props from i suppose. to use hiphop as an example, i like the highly verbose abstract stuff but i can dance better to the stupid fresh shit.

is it me or does k-punks recent shit seem more stupid fresh and way more danceable?

scottdisco
12-10-2009, 01:20 AM
you would like Josef K, Room.

mistersloane
12-10-2009, 01:32 AM
is it me or does k-punks recent shit seem more stupid fresh and way more danceable?

That's a brilliant line.

Badiou's work is very well translated, they explain veeeeery carefully what the nuances are between his language and that which is being translated, exemplary translations in fact, if you want to go there.

I wouldn't get too caught up in not reading stuff cos it's in a different language, because it's a self-reductive self-argument.

Room with a view
12-10-2009, 02:33 AM
if i want to go there, where would be a good entry point and is josef k, room...this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Trial)?

scottdisco
12-10-2009, 09:44 AM
Josef K is quality and missed. he plays squash with Zhao and supports Arsenal football club and wrote a book (or is writing a book, or has written books, or is writing books).

here (http://stereogram.tumblr.com/), here (http://stereogram.wordpress.com/), here (http://www.dissensus.com/showthread.php?t=9038), here (http://www.dissensus.com/showthread.php?t=8701) or here (http://www.dissensus.com/showthread.php?t=8695), for starters.

IdleRich
12-10-2009, 09:54 AM
"so continental philosophy/critical theory if it wants to be understood across a broader section and beyond needs transliterated again into lowest common denom language"
Big if.


"Josef K is quality and missed. he plays squash with Zhao"
Really? Who wins?

matt b
12-10-2009, 10:53 AM
then proceeds to tell me what the alternative is and what i should do.

you are taking the piss?

zhao
12-10-2009, 11:08 AM
just got an email from josef that he is leaving berlin... but hopefully he'll come back around here.

IdleRich
12-10-2009, 11:18 AM
But who is best at squash?

zhao
12-10-2009, 12:50 PM
you know, both of us being stoner slackers, we never got around to playing squash... anyone else in these parts interested in getting their ass whooped get in touch.

IdleRich
12-10-2009, 01:05 PM
"you know, both of us being stoner slackers, we never got around to playing squash... anyone else in these parts interested in getting their ass whooped get in touch."
Hmm, the second part of the sentence is somewhat undermined by the first. I would love to play if I were in Berlin - my playing partner introduced me to the game, got me addicted and then injured himself so he can't play. I'm having terrible withdrawal symptoms.

Tentative Andy
12-10-2009, 02:13 PM
^^ Ok, hopefully clearing up some more confusion - when I said about k-punk implementing his ideas through his teaching I didn't mean he was operating some kind of mind-control to turn kids over to the kyber-punk program, just that he taught courses about things he was interested in like Spinoza, Badiou and so forth. It was an example that occured to me of something practical he was doing for a time outside of the blog/message board/on-line mag/specialist publication network with which he's usually associated.

scottdisco
12-10-2009, 02:19 PM
[...] things he was interested in like Spinoza [...]

you certainly can't get more practical than a lens grinder!

vimothy
12-10-2009, 02:33 PM
"...the soft narcosis, the simstim eternity, the comfort food oblivion of Playstation, all-night TV and marijuana. Capital's interpassive nihilism."

scottdisco
12-10-2009, 03:06 PM
http://www.booksshouldbefree.com/images/big/Consolation-of-Philosophy.jpg

vimothy
12-10-2009, 03:57 PM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/67/Confederacy_of_dunces_cover.jpg/200px-Confederacy_of_dunces_cover.jpg

Room with a view
12-10-2009, 10:53 PM
you are taking the piss?

no, i'm entirely serious. i'm getting a bit over people highlighting problems without offering solutions. and i'm not talking grand solutions requiring the immediate overthrow of the state to implement the new new world order. i want to be shown something personal to do (http://dissensus.com/showthread.php?t=10019) that might make a difference and change things for the better in the long term even if it means making things worse in the meantime.

i'm hoping k-punk can tell me what that is. does he have a grand plan and he's slowly indoctrinating us in a piecemeal fashion ? if not then whats his point, his purpose, his raison d'etre ? does he need to put up or shut up and basically walk the talk so others may follow or is he doing enough as it is ?

Mr. Tea
13-10-2009, 12:11 AM
k-punk: "Look. You've got it all wrong. You don't need to follow me. You don't need to follow anybody! You've got to think for yourselves. You're all individuals!"

Room with a view (et al): "YES! WE ARE ALL INDIVIDUALS!!!"

john eden
13-10-2009, 12:11 AM
no, i'm entirely serious. i'm getting a bit over people highlighting problems without offering solutions. and i'm not talking grand solutions requiring the immediate overthrow of the state to implement the new new world order. i want to be shown something personal to do (http://dissensus.com/showthread.php?t=10019) that might make a difference and change things for the better in the long term even if it means making things worse in the meantime.

i'm hoping k-punk can tell me what that is. does he have a grand plan and he's slowly indoctrinating us in a piecemeal fashion ? if not then whats his point, his purpose, his raison d'etre ? does he need to put up or shut up and basically walk the talk so others may follow or is he doing enough as it is ?

It's not about individuals. It isn't about you, it isn't about k-punk.

do you seriously think we are all sitting here with THE answer for YOU, but we won't reveal it because you haven't asked the question in the correct manner?

Or that if you read k-punk's book or blog carefully enough that the answer will reveal itself? If you have questions for him, then ask him...

lanugo
13-10-2009, 12:21 AM
"...the soft narcosis, the simstim eternity, the comfort food oblivion of Playstation, all-night TV and marijuana. Capital's interpassive nihilism."

Where's that from?

luka
13-10-2009, 12:47 AM
its from kpunks blog

Room with a view
13-10-2009, 01:32 AM
I
do you seriously think we are all sitting here with THE answer for YOU, but we won't reveal it because you haven't asked the question in the correct manner?

no i think most of you have no idea and are too scared to say what the answer MIGHT be for fear of losing face


Or that if you read k-punk's book or blog carefully enough that the answer will reveal itself? YES


If you have questions for him, then ask him...

i bloody well will. all in good time

baboon2004
13-10-2009, 02:01 AM
i'm hoping k-punk can tell me what that is. does he have a grand plan and he's slowly indoctrinating us in a piecemeal fashion ? if not then whats his point, his purpose, his raison d'etre ? does he need to put up or shut up and basically walk the talk so others may follow or is he doing enough as it is ?

i think he probably needs a tv show, or at least an hour on rinse every week. if possible, rapping continental philosophy, which is actually the BEST idea anyone has ever had.

Room with a view
13-10-2009, 02:21 AM
yeah i thought woebot tv would have been a brilliant format for him to co-opt ?

Mr. Tea
13-10-2009, 02:51 AM
Yo, check my man Badiou, I tell ya he ain't no foo'
get down with Saussure, he'll wise you up fo' sure
chill with Habermas, get critical on yo ass
kick back with Nietzsche, that dawg'll teach ya
but word up homie, I don't roll with Heid-igga
cuz that Nazi shit just don't figga for a nigga

Room with a view
13-10-2009, 07:24 AM
^ayo dont give up ya dayjob!

john eden
13-10-2009, 08:10 AM
no i think most of you have no idea and are too scared to say what the answer MIGHT be for fear of losing face

I have no idea what the answer is for you, which is hardly surprising as I'm not a guru and I don't know anything about you.

I also have no idea what k-punk is on about most of the time and am not really all that keen on his approach to things. This has been the case for about ten years now.

If you think I'm scared to say that, then you clearly know even less about me than I know about you.

matt b
13-10-2009, 12:18 PM
If you think I'm scared to say that, then you clearly know even less about me than I know about you.

http://www.dissensus.com/showthread.php?p=207424#post207424

troll

Mr. Tea
13-10-2009, 01:30 PM
^ayo dont give up ya dayjob!

Well I'm actually looking for one at the moment...could be that I've found my vocation? :cool:

massrock
13-10-2009, 01:47 PM
i think he probably needs a tv show, or at least an hour on rinse every week. if possible, rapping continental philosophy, which is actually the BEST idea anyone has ever had.
"Bad Meaning Badiou"

crackerjack
13-10-2009, 04:25 PM
http://dissensus.com/showthread.php?t=3893

blimey, they don't make em like that anymore

Room with a view
13-10-2009, 11:02 PM
I have no idea what the answer is for you, which is hardly surprising as I'm not a guru and I don't know anything about you.

I also have no idea what k-punk is on about most of the time and am not really all that keen on his approach to things. This has been the case for about ten years now.

If you think I'm scared to say that, then you clearly know even less about me than I know about you.

sorry, maybe i am looking for answers in all the wrong places and from the wrong people:(

luka
14-10-2009, 12:35 AM
maybe you're just a thick cunt.

baboon2004
14-10-2009, 12:44 AM
"Bad Meaning Badiou"

I say "I think", you say "therefore I am"!

Room with a view
14-10-2009, 01:36 AM
maybe you're just a thick cunt.

maybe i'm a product of the environment or my mother didn't love me enough or any number of excuses. i'd hate to think it was a simple as me being simple.

vimothy
14-10-2009, 04:25 PM
The pitfalls of tolerance (http://leninology.blogspot.com/2009/10/pitfalls-of-tolerance.html)--Lenin's Tomb

scottdisco
14-10-2009, 04:29 PM
maybe i'm a product of the environment or my mother didn't love me enough or any number of excuses. i'd hate to think it was a simple as me being simple.

here we go, back to where it started, any number of faffing about can not disguise Nigel Clough waltzing through the Dell as if he were Chrissy Waddle ambling through the AC Milan back four (before the floodlights went out)

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/03Tcr5Q-F74&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/03Tcr5Q-F74&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Room with a view
15-10-2009, 10:51 PM
The left should leave behind "spontaneity" along with all the other relics of 68, which weigh so heavily on the brains of would-be militants. The alternative is not Stalinism, even if it might involve elements of conspiratorialism (how could any effective political strategy not involve some element of this?); and it will certainly entail a disciplined withdrawal from particular communicative circuits. What is certain is that it is imperative to escape the binaries that "democratic" communicative capitalism has imposed on our thinking.

http://k-punk.abstractdynamics.org/archives/011328.html

what are these binaries we need to escape from ? and if 'the left' leaves behind spontaneity then it should start planning/conspiring the revolution...no?

if you look at it like planning a gig, then

a) pick a date...20/12/2012 is as good as any.
b)pick a venue...your local bank would suffice and makes a nice change from your local university
c)pick your performers...fuck it "YOU ARE A STAR"
d) promote the shit out of it...whats the point in 'disciplined withdrawal from particular communicative circuits'?

...pimpin aint easy!!!

and the alternative ?...well its not stalinism, so by process of elimination we will eventually deduce that " that which it is not so must it be" a form of occams razor ?
'entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity'.

given that its a 'new' orthodoxy we're hurtling towards. is it then impossible to predict it's form or can we mould it ?

and who are we anyway...to the left to the left, everything i own in a box to the left ?

Room with a view
23-10-2009, 11:48 PM
Modernism After Postmodernism: Is there a future beyond capitalist realism?

November 11th 2009

2:00pm - 5:00pm
UEL Docklands Campus

Room EB.3.19

(third floor, main building, turn left upon entering the main square after leaving Cyprus DLR. Cyprus DLR is literally situated at the campus)

Free, All welcome

Has the idea of ‘postmodernism’ left any legacy but that of a generalised capitulation to the demands of liberal capitalism? What can contemporary urbanism learn from the era of unabashed ‘militant modernism’? Is the most controversial living philosopher, Alain Badiou, with his radical re-conceptualisation of Truth, Event and Subject, to be understood as advocating a neo-modernist programme, or something quite different? Can there be any progressive radicalism that does not ultimately embrace the revolutionising logic of modernism?

http://k-punk.abstractdynamics.org/archives/2009_10.html

this looks interesting, anyone going to this and reckon it'll be streamed or youtubed for those in the outer reaches?

massrock
24-10-2009, 01:05 AM
Room with a view, did you ever look at this?

http://www.cinestatic.com/trans-mat/Fisher/FCintro.htm

Room with a view
24-10-2009, 01:22 AM
no but funnily enough, i just watched 'surrogates' with bruce willis last night and first impressions are, that the resonations with your link seem to be in phase :D

remote control taken to the extreme or maybe dorian grey in reverse?