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View Full Version : bleep 'n' bass -- an anachronistic term?



dominic
10-03-2005, 12:47 AM
that is, did people actually refer to lfo, unique three, etc, as "bleep n bass" back in 1990?

or was the term invented at some point in the mid-90s (perhaps after term "drum n bass" gained currency) to describe the earlier sound?

that is, would all that is now called "bleep n bass" have been called "house music" in 1990?

certainly in the states the only terms were house music, techno music, rave music

curious to know as my use of the term was challenged the other day by a manc friend of mine who likes to lord his uk credentials over me . . . .

nomos
10-03-2005, 12:57 AM
I remember a Sweet Exorcist interview where Richard Kirk talked about coming up with the word 'Clonk' (IE: 'Clonk's Coming' 1990) as a joke after people started going on about the 'bleep' sound. So 'bleep' on its own was definitely in use but I have a feeling 'bleep and bass' may be a post drum n bass coinage.

soul_pill
10-03-2005, 05:47 AM
Yeah, it was definitely "bleep".

Nick Gutterbreakz
10-03-2005, 09:13 AM
True, true. It was just Bleep music at the time, or simply House/Techno etc. There were not as many micro-terms as there are today. The nearest reference to Bleep and Bass would be the Breaks, bass and bleeps (http://www.discogs.com/release/50464) compilations that came out in 1990. Cool thread. Needed to be addressed...

Gerard
10-03-2005, 09:27 AM
Network released two comps. called "Dance music with bleeps" in '90/'91. Detroit stuff alongside Nexus 21 and Rythmatic. These records turned me on to techno. My friend Al used to call it Ping Pong techno.

Canada J Soup
10-03-2005, 02:44 PM
There was an NME cover with LFO on it circa Frequencies with the caption "Don't fear the bleep" that I remember being annoyed by because I thought the term bleep was demeaning. I thought 'techno' sounded much cooler.

blissblogger
10-03-2005, 05:14 PM
might actually be my fault, i think i misremembered the term and added the bass

bleep was definitely the more common term at the time you're right Dom

but as bass was such a salient and massive part of the music it's good to have it added on

and yeah there was that comp title too

that is one of the great periods, i don't know why it's not more highly prized (the records can still be found fairly cheap, perhaps a lot of them were pressed cos they sold well), you don't get bleep'n'bass nights like you get oldskool rave nights. i would love to hear a whole set of sweet exorcist/unique 3/abilty II/rob gordon type stuff.

Dubquixote
10-03-2005, 06:04 PM
this is a great topic... i remember reading an interview w/ lfo or nightmares on wax (i believe in your book simon) where they were obsessing over how many layers/frequencies of massive bass they could squeeze onto a single record. this moment in the house continuum where a reggae-inspired fixation on bass in its own right seems to have taken hold seems really important. i was always intrigued by that track on the warp history compilaton by ital rockers called 'rockers revenge' which seems to have been made by dub reggae producers on the tail end of UK digi-dub experimenting with acid techno.

Nick Gutterbreakz
10-03-2005, 06:55 PM
i would love to hear a whole set of sweet exorcist/unique 3/abilty II/rob gordon type stuff.

Well, if you wanna book me a venue in NYC and pay for my plane ticket I'll be happy to obligue Simon! :D

And yes, now I think of it the first time I saw the term Bleep n Bass was probably in Energy Flash.

Canada J Soup
10-03-2005, 07:48 PM
i would love to hear a whole set of sweet exorcist/unique 3/abilty II/rob gordon type stuff.

I've been feeling like this was just around the corner for a while. It somehow seemed like a logical progression from the revisiting of old skool / jungle techno (partly because the records are still so cheap second hand and partly because the bleep stuff segues so well sonically with contemproray techno / electrohouse / microhouse / whateverthefuck), but the closest it seems to have come is with soundalike records (Donnacha Costello's Colorseries for eg).

blissblogger
10-03-2005, 07:54 PM
yer on nick

(only kidding)

i have thought a few times when i' ve had a chance to dj that i would do a bleep set, but seeing as i can't actually mix, thought better of it.

the other one that's ripe for bigging up -- and nick's done this a bit already -- is the belgian shit

mms
10-03-2005, 08:01 PM
saw one of the unique 3 lot dj bleep only recently (oddly finshing with inner city life) it was good there are some awesome tracks from that genre, i often wonder what happened to rob gordon, who had a huge history before warp, at fon studios as fon force and also as part of the age of chance etc, he did a couple of eps as black knight which were really good then nothing else.

nomos
10-03-2005, 08:25 PM
yes more belgian shit please, nick. i've been wating patiently over here. ;)

Oh and a request for the Gutterbreakz Beatbox, if you don't mind. "Test Three" - I was so happy to get that from you and then my hard drive died and I lost it.

notoriousJ.I.M
10-03-2005, 09:56 PM
Network released two comps. called "Dance music with bleeps" in '90/'91. Detroit stuff alongside Nexus 21 and Rythmatic. These records turned me on to techno. My friend Al used to call it Ping Pong techno.

They were the Biorhythms comps. I love this stuff too, Nexus 21's Rhythm of Life album on Blue Chip records (89) and the Unique 3 album Jus' Unique on 10 records (90) show the transition from acid to bleep perfectly. I would love to know what happened to Rob Gordon too, this compilation 'Rob Gordon Projects' (http://www.discogs.com/release/72152) came out in 96 but I think it was a round up of older stuff.

dominic
11-03-2005, 01:36 AM
I would love to know what happened to Rob Gordon too, this compilation 'Rob Gordon Projects' (http://www.discogs.com/release/72152) came out in 96 but I think it was a round up of older stuff.

in addition to the forgemasters record on network ("everybody clap your hands"), i have an old electro record on label called "serious gold" -- the act is "cosmic touch" and the track "nothing ever changes" -- came out in 1983 -- produced by j. clarke, r. gordon, c. harris -- can't help but wonder if this is the same rob gordon

also used to have a copy of forgemasters on the hubba hubba label -- very mexican type sound, similar to mexican stuff by black dog/plaid -- but foolishly sold the record -- came out in 1992 -- got rid of it b/c i thought it too "progressive house," i.e., i went through a phase where i purged my record collection of things i deemed too anti-rave-ist (largely b/c of my reading of SR, an o/w benign influence which in this instance proved malevolent -- merely joking!)

dubplatestyle
11-03-2005, 02:14 AM
i have a feeling belgian shit might be the next hipster zone of accquisition. i was reading some dj magazine (it might have even been "dj magazine" come to think of it) (anyway one of those awful dance mags) (the ones that are left) (i have too much free time at work) and they had some thing where they asked some up and comer what he plays and, amongst all the usual punk funk neo electro hoo hah, he was name checking like aum80 (80aum?) and t99 and such. which is fine by me!

dominic
11-03-2005, 02:32 AM
i have a feeling belgian shit might be the next hipster zone of accquisition

actually i've been trying to id & track down this record that goes "we are taking every precaution" over a breakbeat -- and then it has another sample that goes something like "over wakka-wakka-hot, over wakka-wakka-hot" -- and then a looped piano riff that is at once funky & militant ------ i had been working on the assumption that it was uk proto-junglistic, but a friend recently suggested to me that this may be a frank de wulf track -- came out in late summer 1991, as i used to tape this show called "hillbilly house" that caned it for like two or three months straight back then ------- does anybody here have any idea what track i'm talking about???

but yeah stuff like "where is your evidence," "the noise," "get down everybody," "here comes malcolm rushing in" ------- absolutely wicked

kidkameleon
11-03-2005, 02:59 AM
Well, how 'bout a mix, Gutterbreakz? I'm serious. Last time you broke out the turntables a month ago it was with excellent results. I can tell that so much of this stuff is right there in my musical history, lurking about three layers down, but damned if the only thing I own is my treasured original (given to me for FREE!!!) copy of LFO (Leeds Warehouse Mix). Everything else I know comes from Generation Ecstacy. Plus too, this stuff doesn't hang around in America the way you can walk into a Reckless Records in London and see bits of it here and there. But go for it, Nick, the only way I'm gonna hear it is through mixes like that.

"i have a feeling belgian shit might be the next hipster zone of accquisition." You really think Jess? This stuff resonates with the dissensus crowd, but what large group of American's would really get much of the reference/significence. No, my bet for hipsterism is big rave tune mashups. A la this (http://www.turntablelab.com/real2/dm/winkvsusl-higherplace-a.ram) . A "mashup" (not really, OK, a reference) of Higher State of Conciouness, which if you went to a rave in the mid 90s in America that track is burned into your brain. Uncharted territory for cross-sonic thefting mashupery, but one I'd like to hear more of and that I think a large group of people would get.

dominic
11-03-2005, 03:15 AM
"i have a feeling belgian shit might be the next hipster zone of accquisition." You really think Jess? This stuff resonates with the dissensus crowd, but what large group of American's would really get much of the reference/significence.

i think belgian hardcore actually had a pretty long run in america, longer than in britain -- the really massive belgian hits that came out in 1991 -- stuff that was on the verge of being commercial -- were still be played in places like st louis in 1994 -- stuff like T99, stuff like the track that got played on the film "basic instinct," stuff like james brown is dead -- and the reason for this is that a lot of the rave crowd, especially in the midwest, had been into wax trax industrial stuff

dominic
11-03-2005, 03:30 AM
indeed the belgian stuff was pretty much what was played in clubs -- this stuff had the widest exposure -- with the caveat that even club scene was kinda underground in early 90s

and then the underground rave scene would typically have djs playing all varieties of dance music -- house, jungle, teutonic stuff, acid stuff, california stuff

only in 1994/1995 did "connoisseur" house music take over midwestern clubs (excepting chicago, which of course had very different dynamics)

dominic
11-03-2005, 03:51 AM
about clubs i'm making a midwest/east coast distinction . . . .

but even in washington, dc, i think the belgian stuff had a wide & enduring profile

northeast (nyc, new jersey, connecticut, philly) obviously had an indigenous house tradition

but people like frankie bones, adam x took the belgian hardcore angle and persisted in that stance for quite some time

have absolutely no knowledge, however, about the west coast or southern states

Diaz
11-03-2005, 04:14 AM
mmm yes please on the vote for a set of this stuff. it's delicious!

i first heard anything remotely i n this genre when i picked up the Warp 10+1 Influences (http://www.discogs.com/release/10194) cd when it first came out, and it blew me away! I was in high school and mostly listened to gimpy breakbeat trance, hardcore/speedcore/gabber and squarepusher, and the stuff had a feel to it that was completely removed from all else I was hearing...it was so very spare, and yet didn't feel empty at all, quite the opposite.

Is the Warp collection a good list to start collecting from? No one I've asked in my little world knows a whole lot about what else to look for. I'll start looking for things mentioned here though...

Been thinking about trying to mix it in to sets forever, but it's difficult because it overpowers a lot of other kinds of music, and i'm just not good enough at layering my mixes (ok, i'm absolutely terrible!) to do any of it justice. and my personal barometer, my little brother, loves it too, so i know it'd be worth it.

dubplatestyle
11-03-2005, 04:47 AM
yeah i think dominic is right irt the wax trax/industrial connection. it's not <i>that</i> big of a leap between nodes from t99 to vitalic, is it? (i think the optimo guys already play some belgian stuff, but then they play everything.)

really it's only when the speeded-up breakbeats start going in that i think we're going to see a wall going up in williamsburg.

kidkameleon
11-03-2005, 06:07 AM
i think belgian hardcore actually had a pretty long run in america, longer than in britain -- the really massive belgian hits that came out in 1991 -- stuff that was on the verge of being commercial -- were still be played in places like st louis in 1994 -- stuff like T99, stuff like the track that got played on the film "basic instinct," stuff like james brown is dead -- and the reason for this is that a lot of the rave crowd, especially in the midwest, had been into wax trax industrial stuff

OK, cool, yeah, I'll buy that, and stuff like James Brown is Dead also kinda fits in with I was mentioning before for mashups. For sure that was what I was hearing at "Raves" (In the south south, dominic, so maybe that partially answers your question). But, and forgive my ignorence, I was 11 at the time, isn't that stuff pretty different sonically from what I thought SR was referring to as bleep and bass ... I got the feeling that stuff was all stark and cold, but with overtones of dub, at least, dub-echo effects, and electroee bouncy beats, 808 cowbells and such ... you know, early warp ... that sounds different to me than wailly, grinding along, churning "Rave" stuff (does anyone remember the rave version of bethoven's 5th?) and those over the top keyboard lines. I dunno ... is that bleep n bass?

Am I showing my age?

-KK

dominic
11-03-2005, 06:40 AM
But, and forgive my ignorence, I was 11 at the time

only reason i know is b/c i was 18 in 1990!!! -- but certainly i've never been into rave music to near the extent as you, so please don't use the term "ignorance" -- as in almost all cases it will attach to my name!!!!! ----- seriously massive respect to you and ripley


isn't that stuff pretty different sonically from what I thought SR was referring to as bleep and bass ... I got the feeling that stuff was all stark and cold, but with overtones of dub, at least, dub-echo effects, and electroee bouncy beats, 808 cowbells and such ... you know, early warp ... that sounds different to me than wailly, grinding along, churning "Rave" stuff (does anyone remember the rave version of bethoven's 5th?) and those over the top keyboard lines. I dunno ... is that bleep n bass?


the thread was initially about bleep 'n' bass -- and i think you describe bleep 'n' bass well -- though it's not necessarily cold and stark in all instances -- but you've got the idea right

what's confusing you is that dubplatestyle then introduced to the conversation his belief that 91/92 belgian hardcore will be the next zone of hipster appropriation -- and yeah, 91/92 belgian hardcore is whiter-than-white, mid-range riffage -- though not monolithically so -- that is, "get down everybody" has sub bass tones (or at least a sine-wave drop) -- and if the "we are taking every precaution" track that i'm tyring to ID is indeed by frank de wulf, then that to my mind is proto-junglistic despite being from belgium . . . .

but to get back to basic terms . . . . bleep n bass is from north of england, think sheffield and leeds, think techno meets jamaican soundsystems ---- this sound peaked in popularity in 1990 ------------ if you go to the "everything begins w/ e" website, you can find a lot of cool mixes from 1990, which typically mix northern bleep n bass with london shut up and dance type stuff (check especially top buzz & rat pack mixes)

and then belgian hardcore is the mid-range stuff, some of it quite mad, other parts very aggressive, out of belgium & netherlands, but not exclusively -- think also early underground resistance and joey beltram and frankie bones and john + julie ------ this stuff peaked in popularity in 1991 (check the "second chapter" compilation on xl records, which is very easy to find) ----- and it would inform ny hardcore techno for many years to come, as well as the gabba scene, plus wisconsin drop bass, and you could even say that 1992/93-era trance came out it ----------- moreover, belgian hardcore directly fed into the 91/92 uk hardcore sound, and so was an important sonic source for 93 darkside and the no-u-turn sound, etc, etc, etc

dominic
11-03-2005, 07:04 AM
does anyone remember the rave version of bethoven's 5th?

or anastasia???? yeah, the bombastic symphonic stuff, the operatic stuff -- all of that was belgian or else belgian inspired -- and that sound had wide exposure in u.s. clubs for a good number of years

don't seem to recall beethoven's 5th, however

mms
11-03-2005, 07:42 AM
or anastasia???? yeah, the bombastic symphonic stuff, the operatic stuff -- all of that was belgian or else belgian inspired -- and that sound had wide exposure in u.s. clubs for a good number of years

don't seem to recall beethoven's 5th, however

there was an alien christ record which sampled beethoven,
dunno the one you are talking about but there was a classical sampling record on the drugs episode of morse.
i knew girl who used to collect them.
there is that sakamoto sampling shut up and dance record which i think was on a drug advert too

mms
11-03-2005, 07:45 AM
Well, how 'bout a mix, Gutterbreakz? I'm serious. Last time you broke out the turntables a month ago it was with excellent results. I can tell that so much of this stuff is right there in my musical history, lurking about three layers down, but damned if the only thing I own is my treasured original (given to me for FREE!!!) copy of LFO (Leeds Warehouse Mix). Everything else I know comes from Generation Ecstacy. Plus too, this stuff doesn't hang around in America the way you can walk into a Reckless Records in London and see bits of it here and there. But go for it, Nick, the only way I'm gonna hear it is through mixes like that.

"i have a feeling belgian shit might be the next hipster zone of accquisition." You really think Jess? This stuff resonates with the dissensus crowd, but what large group of American's would really get much of the reference/significence. No, my bet for hipsterism is big rave tune mashups. A la this (http://www.turntablelab.com/real2/dm/winkvsusl-higherplace-a.ram) . A "mashup" (not really, OK, a reference) of Higher State of Conciouness, which if you went to a rave in the mid 90s in America that track is burned into your brain. Uncharted territory for cross-sonic thefting mashupery, but one I'd like to hear more of and that I think a large group of people would get.


it was the brooklyn lot that did all the orig mashups of uk and us dance tunes with an 808 behind them etc, famous one is women beat their men that nicks voodoo ray, he was pissed off about that.

soup
11-03-2005, 10:58 AM
it was the brooklyn lot that did all the orig mashups of uk and us dance tunes with an 808 behind them etc, famous one is women beat their men that nicks voodoo ray, he was pissed off about that.

Yeah I remember there being a certain amount of resentment towards Frankie Bones at the time from various quarters. Though a significant part of the out put from Brooklyn at the time were DJ tools rather than mashups. Mash ups seem to stand up as tracks on their own whereas stuff like the Bonesbreaks series were used in running mixes, introducing the breakbeat to 4 to the floor tracks, upping the ante/intensity and imo became a major influence on uk breakbeat/hardcore.

Re: the bleep. There is a (very live) mix on the Warp site by Winston Hazel using '10+1 INFLUENCES' AND '10+2 CLASSICS' that covers a lot of the more popular tracks.

hamarplazt
11-03-2005, 12:06 PM
and then belgian hardcore is the mid-range stuff, some of it quite mad, other parts very aggressive, out of belgium & netherlands, but not exclusively --

No, certainly not exclusively, a huge part of these producers was actually german and italian. As for the italians, I think it was mostly professionals, who used to make italo disco and piano house, simply jumping the bandwagon - and doing it brilliantly. The german part of it is the most fascinating I think, they had their own style to begin with, highly influenced by electro and EBM (not surprising, as the german rave scene more or less developed from/fused with the industrial scene), sounding like a missing link between bleep and belgium. This is a style that I would really like to see revisited.

Ach!
11-03-2005, 04:11 PM
'Bad Lieutenant' was on Channel 4 the other night, and in the club scene (which goes on for a fair few minutes) it has Lords Of Acid's 'Let's Get High' playing - which I hope is vaguley on topic.

blissblogger
11-03-2005, 04:18 PM
the other X factor in bleep alongside dub and techno is electro -- like unique 3 i think were a hip hop crew who went acid, and on their album they do a few kinda-weak rap tracks which if you had a mind to you could see a distant ancestors for grime -- and LFO were into breakdancing and all that in their teens -- there's a 808 ancestry there

one mystery to me is why i love bleep''n'bass so much but not digidub when... they get quite close sometimes

the crucial classical referent for Belg-core would be 'carmina burana' i think, and maybe Wagner too -- but 'carmina burana' is one of the most popular pieces of classical music isn't it, and possibly entered the folk-memory on account of being in an ad for aftershave with images of crashing surf -- something about that choral sound perhaps evoke a multitude-in-harmony perhaps but also tempestuous, so fits the vibe of a rave -- dark feeling of exultation -- not sure about Carl Orff's politics but i suspect something a bit dodgy going on too -- it's that nietzche-wagner-hitler line -- some old house heads found the Belgian Wagner-fanfare thing quite threatening, associated it with the mob mentality

redcrescent
11-03-2005, 05:35 PM
not sure about Carl Orff's politics but i suspect something a bit dodgy going on too -- it's that nietzche-wagner-hitler line
I don't know too much about Orff's political intentions, but the Carmina Burana (~1230 A.D.) itself is a collection of Old Middle/High German texts, with subject matter ranging from the highly spiritual to the raunchy and degenerate, drinking songs and the like.
But yes, it does have much of Wagner's threatening vibe.

Carmina Burana does pop up in a lot of places. Wasn't most of one of those Enigma albums, Screen Behind the Mirror or something, based on it? Cod-Gregorian chanting over Vangelis synthscapes and faintly pulsating beats, absolute megasellers in Europe for reasons which remain a mystery to me.

notoriousJ.I.M
11-03-2005, 06:05 PM
the other X factor in bleep alongside dub and techno is electro -- like unique 3 i think were a hip hop crew who went acid, and on their album they do a few kinda-weak rap tracks which if you had a mind to you could see a distant ancestors for grime -- and LFO were into breakdancing and all that in their teens -- there's a 808 ancestry there


Not to mention Nightmares on Wax's 'I'm For Real' which samples Newcleus 'Jam on It'. There's also the Man Machine (http://www.discogs.com/release/78961) record which features Forgemasters (Rob Gordon again) and is clearly influenced by Kraftwerk. I think the Unique 3/grime thing is interesting. If you check out the track Rhythm Takes Control with Karin on vocals there's definately something grimey about it. I've got a Horsepower Prods 12" (what we do - remix) which samples 'testone' by Sweet Exorcist as well.

redcrescent
11-03-2005, 06:07 PM
Addendum re. Orff and the Third Reich. It's pretty certain today that he was not a Nazi or a Nazi sympathizer. In fact, at the 1937 premiere of Carmina Burana, the Völkischer Beobachter [Nazi propaganda daily] criticized its use of Latin and even detected 'touches of jazz' (!). A second performance was given only in 1940. Though Orff's work was never banned, it never met with the approval of the ruling regime, and Orff himself kept a low profile and preferred to work with other artists who were critical of the Nazis.
As Mendelssohn's score to Shakespeare's A Midsummer Nights Dream had been banned, Orff completed his own score during WW2, allowing the piece to be performed. He later admitted this had been a mistake, though his primary motive had been artistic (he'd begun work on the score before the Nazi era) and not political.

From early 90s Belgianisms to 13th Century cantatas... that's Dissensus for ya!

blissblogger
11-03-2005, 06:08 PM
off The Grove Concise Dictionary of Music

"He studied at the Munich Academy and later, in 1920, with Kaminski. In 1924, with Dorothee Günther, he founded a school for gymnastics, music and dance, and out of this came his later activity in providing materials for young children to make music, using their voices and simple percussion instruments. His adult works also seek to make contact with primitive kinds of musical behaviour, as represented by ostinato, pulsation and direct vocal expression of emotion; in this he was influenced by Stravinsky (Oedipus rex, The Wedding), though the models are coarsened to produce music of a powerful pagan sensual appeal and physical excitement. All his major works, including the phenomenally successful Carmina burana (1937), were designed as pageants for the stage; they include several versions of Greek tragedies and Bavarian comedies. "

Sounds well ravey.

and from wikipedia


"As a historical aside, Carmina Burana is probably the most famous piece of music composed and premiered in Nazi Germany.... While Orff's association, or lack thereof, with the Nazi party has never been conclusively established, Carmina Burana was hugely popular in Nazi Germany after its premiere and received numerous performances (although one Nazi critic reviewed it savagely as "degenerate" — entartete — implying a connection with the contemporaneous, and infamous, exhibit of Entartete Kunst)....
Orff was a personal friend of Karl Huber, one of the founders of the resistance movement Die Weiße Rose (the White Rose), who was executed by the Gestapo in 1943. After the war Orff claimed that he was one of the members of the group, and himself involved in the resistance, but unfortunately there was no evidence for this other than his own word, and other sources dispute his claim (for example [1] (http://www.h-net.org/~german/articles/dennis1.html))."

mms
11-03-2005, 06:10 PM
Not to mention Nightmares on Wax's 'I'm For Real' which samples Newcleus 'Jam on It'. There's also the Man Machine (http://www.discogs.com/release/78961) record which features Forgemasters (Rob Gordon again) and is clearly influenced by Kraftwerk. I think the Unique 3/grime thing is interesting. If you check out the track Rhythm Takes Control with Karin on vocals there's definately something grimey about it. I've got a Horsepower Prods 12" (what we do - remix) which samples 'testone' by Sweet Exorcist as well.

both genres take a live soundsystem experience a bit further, empting out the vocals and leaving the dub sirens and the bass and drum shell.
i remember my my mate martin making a home made outer-rhythm shirt, that label was dope an all, network too from birmingham i think.

ambrose
11-03-2005, 11:23 PM
i often wonder what happened to rob gordon

rob gordon is still around sheffield! he used to go out with my friend. You can still see him if you go to Headcharge or something, at leat thats where I last saw him. Was 3 yrs ago mind. I think he was sorting out their PA or something. Hes got lots of records in his house............

dominic
12-03-2005, 03:45 AM
a huge part of these producers was actually german and italian. As for the italians, I think it was mostly professionals, who used to make italo disco and piano house, simply jumping the bandwagon - and doing it brilliantly

do you mean stuff like anticappella???

dominic
12-03-2005, 03:56 AM
The german part of it is the most fascinating I think, they had their own style to begin with, highly influenced by electro and EBM (not surprising, as the german rave scene more or less developed from/fused with the industrial scene), sounding like a missing link between bleep and belgium. This is a style that I would really like to see revisited.

not sure what you're talking about . . . .

stuff like westbam i always thought pretty weak

i liked the slower, more trippy german stuff -- or what i *imagined* to be german -- stuff like slot's "accelerate" on the leptone label -- or "we came in peace for all mankind" -- this is a sound that evoved into trance music by 1992 ---------- and yet a definite connection here to bleep n bass, the bleep part, not the bass part

dominic
12-03-2005, 04:10 AM
it was the brooklyn lot that did all the orig mashups of uk and us dance tunes with an 808 behind them etc, famous one is women beat their men that nicks voodoo ray, he was pissed off about that.

actually there's an appallingly bad mash-up of "voodoo ray" and kelis' "milkshake" out & about right now ------ take two brilliant songs, mash them together, and get a really poor result

michael
12-03-2005, 04:12 AM
Normally when people are chatting about 'Carmina Burana' they're referring only to 'O Fortuna', which opens the whole thing, and which is over in about 1 1/2 minutes.

As might be obvious from the title, it's a hymn to the goddess Fortune (http://www.classical.net/music/comp.lst/works/orff-cb/carmlyr.html#track1). Lyrically not exactly chirpy, but nothing that strikes me as Nazi. Not that I've ever read or heard Nazi propaganda, so not sure if these kinds of themes abound or what.

To digress further... Blissblogger cited Carmina Burana getting called "entartete" (degenerate). Holger Czukay of Can described his own music as entartete and sought to create music that might fit the term. I wonder if the term was used a bit in Nazi era Germany, and if it means more than just if an english speaker announced s/he was intending to make "degenerate music". Perhaps like if an American said s/he was making "Unamerican music"... there's these implications of anti-fascist that would be known to those who know some history, whereas the surface meaning is a bit different.

Couldn't find anything on Czukay's site (http://www.czukay.de/), but doing a bit of a google gave me links that suggest it is a term like "Unamerican", which subversive artists attempted to reclaim as a reaction against an oppressive state.

michael
12-03-2005, 04:19 AM
BTW, was Apotheosis's 'O Fortuna' a Belgian record? Is that what's being referred to above as the "the crucial classical referent for Belg-core" by Blissblogger?

dominic
12-03-2005, 04:37 AM
BTW, was Apotheosis's 'O Fortuna' a Belgian record? Is that what's being referred to above as the "the crucial classical referent for Belg-core" by Blissblogger?

yes

Melchior
12-03-2005, 05:55 AM
As might be obvious from the title, it's a hymn to the goddess Fortune (http://www.classical.net/music/comp.lst/works/orff-cb/carmlyr.html#track1). Lyrically not exactly chirpy, but nothing that strikes me as Nazi. Not that I've ever read or heard Nazi propaganda, so not sure if these kinds of themes abound or what.

I have read a lot of nazi propaganda, and it doesn't ave very much in common with the themes you find there at all. No reference to blood, soil, people etc.

hamarplazt
12-03-2005, 11:28 AM
off The Grove Concise Dictionary of Music

"He studied at the Munich Academy and later, in 1920, with Kaminski. In 1924, with Dorothee Günther, he founded a school for gymnastics, music and dance, and out of this came his later activity in providing materials for young children to make music, using their voices and simple percussion instruments. His adult works also seek to make contact with primitive kinds of musical behaviour, as represented by ostinato, pulsation and direct vocal expression of emotion; in this he was influenced by Stravinsky (Oedipus rex, The Wedding), though the models are coarsened to produce music of a powerful pagan sensual appeal and physical excitement. All his major works, including the phenomenally successful Carmina burana (1937), were designed as pageants for the stage; they include several versions of Greek tragedies and Bavarian comedies. "

Sounds well ravey.


Yeah, but most of his stuff isn't ravey at all though. His later works are some of the most static, brooding pieces of classical music I've ever heard - theatrical greek recitation and almost silent percussion and not much else... for hours!!!

hamarplazt
12-03-2005, 11:48 AM
do you mean stuff like anticappella???

Don't know, I don't know anticapella.

Some examples: Antico: We Need Freedom; Tortura: Disco Damnation; Tech - Maker: Trackin' Stuff; UXO: Submariner; Double Z: Snap Tech; F15: Feel the Beat; PMW: Are You Ready to Move; RTFR: Extrasyn; MIG 23: Mig 23...

The italians never really made any of the big hits, but they pumped out tons of scenious stuff.

hamarplazt
12-03-2005, 11:56 AM
stuff like westbam i always thought pretty weak

I actually bought his first LP some time ago, and yeah, pretty weak despite some good momets. But he was much more a kind of hip house thing back then. I'm thinking of stuff like Time Modem, Friends/Enemies of Carlotta, Recall IV, Klangwerk, Scrot, 9-10 Boy (Tanith), O/Cybex Factor (Martin Damm)... I think most of these were lapsed EBM-producers turned to techno through New Beat.


"we came in peace for all mankind" -- this is a sound that evoved into trance music by 1992
Yeah, that was Dance to Trance. Not what I'm thinking of here, but a great track nevertheless. "Freaks" too. In many ways, trance is a EBM descendant too.

dominic
13-03-2005, 12:21 AM
Don't know, I don't know anticapella.

Some examples: Antico: We Need Freedom; Tortura: Disco Damnation; Tech - Maker: Trackin' Stuff; UXO: Submariner; Double Z: Snap Tech; F15: Feel the Beat; PMW: Are You Ready to Move; RTFR: Extrasyn; MIG 23: Mig 23...

The italians never really made any of the big hits, but they pumped out tons of scenious stuff.

yeah -- too obscure for me!!! -- which isn't to say i haven't heard it (standard match the memory w/ track name game)

so you must have already been a serious record buyer back in 1991??? or perhaps even a dj?

or rather, one of the things that always struck me about uk student life -- and i lived in uk as student back in 92/93 -- was the fact that all these students rec'd money from the govt at the start of each trimester and would then used the money to buy records!!! -- athough i'm probably putting the cart in front of the horse on this one, as there were surely many working class kids who didn't go to university (and so rec'd no check from govt) also buying records -- the entire generation was mad for 12" records

ALSO -- isn't it weird that italians made so much rave music when there wasn't even a rave scene in italy -- or if there was a scene, certainly not on same scale as uk or belgium ------ or am i ignorant of the actual facts? ----- that is, isn't it an important part of the "scenius" theory that the producers hit the clubs and raves each weekend to see which tracks are cracking, which tracks work, etc, etc -- so with the italians you had scenius w/o the scene!!!!! -- or perhaps that's why they were eclipsed, i.e., they had the dance know-how from italo disco and black box times -- but once rave scene exploded elsewhere, they got eclipsed by populist creativity

jimbackhouse
13-03-2005, 01:15 AM
actually i've been trying to id & track down this record that goes "we are taking every precaution" over a breakbeat -- and then it has another sample that goes something like "over wakka-wakka-hot, over wakka-wakka-hot" -- and then a looped piano riff that is at once funky & militant ------ i had been working on the assumption that it was uk proto-junglistic, but a friend recently suggested to me that this may be a frank de wulf track -- came out in late summer 1991, as i used to tape this show called "hillbilly house" that caned it for like two or three months straight back then ------- does anybody here have any idea what track i'm talking about???


it's called 'precaution' by exposure to little electronic noises; on stealth records. it's on the first 'reactivate' compilation too, and the first 3 or 4 volumes of that are as good a primer on bombastic belgian rave as you can get (just avoid the other 15+ volumes!)

dominic
13-03-2005, 08:39 AM
it's called 'precaution' by exposure to little electronic noises; on stealth records. it's on the first 'reactivate' compilation too, and the first 3 or 4 volumes of that are as good a primer on bombastic belgian rave as you can get (just avoid the other 15+ volumes!)


brilliant!!! -- thanks -- not sure why it never before occurred to me to try to have dissensus people id tracks for me -- but prepare yourselves for a glut of vague descriptions of obscure records!

Nick Gutterbreakz
13-03-2005, 10:13 PM
By special request, Sweet Exorcist's "Test Three", plus "Dissonance" by Xon (Richard H Kirk and Robert Gordon) which still sounds like the future to me. Nice appropriation of Cybotron's "Techno City" in there too.

Sheffield 1990-91: Frankly, I still haven't recovered.

hamarplazt
14-03-2005, 09:51 AM
so you must have already been a serious record buyer back in 1991??? or perhaps even a dj?
No no, I was just slowly beginning to buy records back then, and not even techno yet (didn't begin with that until '93). The thing is that I just love the old school rave sound so much that I buy almost everything I can find + I once got a huge load of records from someone who actually was a serious record buying DJ back in '91.



ALSO -- isn't it weird that italians made so much rave music when there wasn't even a rave scene in italy -- or if there was a scene, certainly not on same scale as uk or belgium ------ or am i ignorant of the actual facts? ----- that is, isn't it an important part of the "scenius" theory that the producers hit the clubs and raves each weekend to see which tracks are cracking, which tracks work, etc, etc -- so with the italians you had scenius w/o the scene!!!!! -- or perhaps that's why they were eclipsed, i.e., they had the dance know-how from italo disco and black box times -- but once rave scene exploded elsewhere, they got eclipsed by populist creativity
I think there was a scene, but mostly a holiday scene - all those places like... emm... well, I don't know the names of such places, but those beach party towns for young people who had taken a week off to drink and dance and so on.... I think they played rave back then... at least, thats's where they hached italo disco and piano house I'm pretty sure. But the know how is certainly a part of it too... basically, if you take an italo piano track and exchange the piano vamps with buzzing, agressive synth sounds, make the overall sound a bit more harsh, and the tempo a bit faster, you've got an old school rave track. And those italian producrs was professionals more than anything... if a new sound was ruling and money could be made, they just changed their style.

blissblogger
14-03-2005, 01:35 PM
Rimini was the centre of it, i think

nomos
14-03-2005, 01:52 PM
Lovely. Thanks Nick. :D

Pearsall
14-03-2005, 02:14 PM
I think the Italians have had a rave scene for a while (they were always heavily represented at London free parties when I was into that scene), it just never broke as big there as it did in northern Europe. Italy is home to a large amount of today's hardstyle and hardcore, too.

Simon's right, Rimini has been pretty central. I've been there many years ago (out of season though) and it's basically an Italian Blackpool. I can't remember where I read it, but I remember reading an interview with an English dj who had spent some summers working as a resident at one of the clubs in Rimini, and apparently they are (or at least were) very ostentatious and fancy, because they were all owned by mafiosi who used them for money-laundering (as well as as status symbols).

mms
14-03-2005, 04:49 PM
I think the Italians have had a rave scene for a while (they were always heavily represented at London free parties when I was into that scene), it just never broke as big there as it did in northern Europe. Italy is home to a large amount of today's hardstyle and hardcore, too.

Simon's right, Rimini has been pretty central. I've been there many years ago (out of season though) and it's basically an Italian Blackpool. I can't remember where I read it, but I remember reading an interview with an English dj who had spent some summers working as a resident at one of the clubs in Rimini, and apparently they are (or at least were) very ostentatious and fancy, because they were all owned by mafiosi who used them for money-laundering (as well as as status symbols).



yeah rome had some wicked techno labels, very hard dark druggy stuff. stuff like sounds never seen. acv,
artists, d'arcangelo, leo anibaldi, marco passarani and lory d, marco lenzi.
lory was a particuar favorite in rome, an amazing dj and a big hero.
the italians in london came from silverfish, alex silverfish who ran the shop and put on lots of good,heavy eurotechno nights is now a mid op transexual, which is odd cos he was always a big guy, now he's a skinny woman who dj's at nag nag nag.
marco lenzi now helps run eukatech which is next gen italian stuff and eurotechno.

Pearsall
14-03-2005, 05:10 PM
Wasn't there a band called Silverfish as well? Were they connected? Reaching well back now into my memory now. ;)

Yeah, Eukatech is a great shop, probably the best place for techno in London.

Italy has always put out a lot of good quality dance music, imo they're probably the third best in Europe in terms of consistency over the years after the Brits and the Germans.

mms
14-03-2005, 05:19 PM
Wasn't there a band called Silverfish as well? Were they connected? Reaching well back now into my memory now. ;)

Italy has always put out a lot of good quality dance music, imo they're probably the third best in Europe in terms of consistency over the years after the Brits and the Germans.


they were a (rather good, female vocalled up) hardcore band, no connections i think.
i'd agree with you about italy, altho alot of italo came out of canada, and alot of the ebm type bands

dominic
14-03-2005, 06:14 PM
i completely agree that the italians have made a lot of great dance music, though had been unaware of their talent for dark techno

i just didn't think there was much of a rave scene there in 90/91/92 -- i always thought that rimini was british tourists, same as ibiza -- the flying records/cowboy records crowd and that sort of thing, which was contemporaneous w/ belgian hardcore

i'm perhaps too eager to pigeonhole

Pearsall
14-03-2005, 06:18 PM
As far as I know Rimini is mainly an Italian resort, the British contingent is fairly negligible compared to their presence on the Spanish islands and Costa del Sol and on Cyprus.

mms
14-03-2005, 06:49 PM
i completely agree that the italians have made a lot of great dance music, though had been unaware of their talent for dark techno

i just didn't think there was much of a rave scene there in 90/91/92 -- i always thought that rimini was british tourists, same as ibiza -- the flying records/cowboy records crowd and that sort of thing, which was contemporaneous w/ belgian hardcore

i'm perhaps too eager to pigeonhole

http://www.discogs.com/label/Sounds+Never+Seen
the original sound of rome


http://www.discogs.com/label/ACV including robert armani and lots of consequential chicago crossover, plus leo anibaldi

hot trax sublabel of acv
http://www.discogs.com/label/Hot+Trax


fact people, william bennet from whitehouse dj's under the name dj benneti from rimini, for his italo sets. he's a huge italo collector

http://www.discogs.com/label/Molecular italio anglo.

dominic
14-03-2005, 09:00 PM
am definitely taking notes -- thanks

also i should mention that some of the better club nights in nyc are run by italians -- but the music is on the organic side of things, not standard dissensus stuff

DigitalDjigit
17-03-2005, 10:46 PM
Sorry, just to take it back a bit.

There is very little of that bleep stuff around. I think pretty much all of it was already named in this thread, 3-4 labels and a couple compilations encompass pretty much all of it. It would be kinda hard for a revival to happen.

The Germans...they didn't do much techno either, until 1992. I really cannot name a single artist aside from Westbam and Acardipane (who released through Belgian channels) that made anything that was notable until 1992. I think Germany only became a big player on the techno scene with the hardtrance (Harthouse, Overdrive) stuff and hard acid (Jammin' Unit & Dr. Walker, Labworks) shortly after. I do remember one now, that Force Legatto - System track, that only highlights Germany's conspicious absense and the ebm-type sound there were into.

Italy did release a lot of rave tunes in the very early 90's, I think all those producers must have switched to euro-dance after the success of 2 Unlimited. They were probably too hung up on melody to really make an impact later on anyway.

notoriousJ.I.M
17-03-2005, 11:26 PM
Here's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yorkshire_Bleeps_and_Bass) a rather neat summary of Yorkshire Bleeps and Bass c/o the Wikipedia and written by a friend of a friend who hails from Leeds. The scene was localised and the sound was indeed short lived, but as has been noted elsewhere in this thread and in the article, it was influential on the later 'ardkore and jungle sound. As such the lineage through early UK 'speed garage' which similarly used breaks and sub bass, through to the current sublow/dubstep and grime scene can't be ignored. The origins in soundsystem culture and the electro scene are clear too but the true origin of the 'bleep' sound is YMO's 'Computer Game'. It's interesting that the YMO Remix album Hi-Tech/No Crime (http://www.discogs.com/release/146536) was overseen by Mark Gamble and Robert Brydon of Sheffield's FON force along with Graham Massey.

michael
18-03-2005, 12:36 AM
I still find it weird that Mark Brydon makes the kind of music he does now with Moloko, coming from this background with FON and the bleep scene and so on.

Sorry, yet another tangent.

dominic
18-03-2005, 01:41 AM
I still find it weird that Mark Brydon makes the kind of music he does now with Moloko, coming from this background with FON and the bleep scene and so on.

Sorry, yet another tangent.

tangents are good

and i think k-punk's pretty keen on moloko -- i recall him doing a piece on them once

kingofcars
18-03-2005, 02:30 AM
The Germans...they didn't do much techno either, until 1992. I really cannot name a single artist aside from Westbam and Acardipane (who released through Belgian channels) that made anything that was notable until 1992.

don't mean to be too nitpicky here, but wasn't acardipane releasing through pcp in 90? and force inc. was putting out stuff by thomas heckmann, ian pooley, etc in 91... and tresor was around in 90/91 (right?). not sure how this stuff was distributed back then, but its existence is indicative of there being at least something of a scene...


as far as the romans - the sounds never seen stuff is truly great and should not be missed! (i've got a couple of the later 12"s - anyone know where one can find the early stuff????? wishful thinking, i'm sure...)
the romans are still releasing some good stuff - passarani's label pigna does ok chicago/italo inspired stuff, and i think nature records is still putting stuff out...

hamarplazt
18-03-2005, 09:34 AM
There is very little of that bleep stuff around. I think pretty much all of it was already named in this thread, 3-4 labels and a couple compilations encompass pretty much all of it. It would be kinda hard for a revival to happen.
Have anyone mentioned Ubik yet? The System Overload EP is pretty great. But their album Just add People isn't all that.



The Germans...they didn't do much techno either, until 1992. I really cannot name a single artist aside from Westbam and Acardipane (who released through Belgian channels) that made anything that was notable until 1992. I think Germany only became a big player on the techno scene with the hardtrance (Harthouse, Overdrive) stuff and hard acid (Jammin' Unit & Dr. Walker, Labworks) shortly after. I do remember one now, that Force Legatto - System track, that only highlights Germany's conspicious absense and the ebm-type sound there were into.
But the EBM-thing is the whole point... When rave arrived Germany allready was a major techno player, simply because they allready had a techno scene - clubs where they danced to heavy EBM-stuff. What happened in 90-92, in addition to early stuff from PCP and Force Inc and Air Liquiede etc., was that acid/rave (mainly belgian New Beat) and EBM/industrial had a kind of power struggle of who was to dominate the scene, and that resulted in an odd, but really fascinating, fusion of the two styles (as well as a fraction of the EBM-scene going in its own direction, Germany is still a leading country for this kind of music). You could say that EBM played the same role in Germany as hip hop/dub did in England. And to say that this isn't notable is ridiculous. Genetic material from EBM live on in hardcore/gabber as well as trance and the neo electro of today.

There's several good compilations with the early german electro/EBM-tinged rave sound. The best is probably the first of the "Techno Trax"-series. This is what got me into techno. It contains the Force Legato track as well, even though it's far from the best example. Eventually, Force Legato was one Oliver Lieb, later to gain some fame, and a lot of condenscending remarks from detroit purists, as trance (if you could even call it that) producer Spicelab. One of the great unsung heroes IMO.

DigitalDjigit
19-03-2005, 02:21 AM
If you look at Tresor releases they are mostly Detroit stuff, especially the early ones: Jeff Mills, Blake Baxter etc. The few examples you can name...what's that compared to what Germany unleashed on the world in 1992.

I am not saying Germany didn't make good music or anything I am just saying that they didn't make any impact on the Techno scene per se until 1992. They had their own little thing going. Or so it seems to me from reconstructing the history, I wasn't around back then. So if I am incorrect about this then tell me. All the old mixes I hear from that period have british, belgian and italian tunes but nothing from Germany. I think it had a bigger impact in America, it seems that a lot of the clubs that played EBM switched over to techno/acid house/rave in the early 90's and took a lot of people with it. So they probably got associated together a lot. That's what Adam X is doing these days apparently, bringing the EBM back into techno.

hamarplazt
19-03-2005, 09:37 AM
I am not saying Germany didn't make good music or anything I am just saying that they didn't make any impact on the Techno scene per se until 1992. They had their own little thing going. Or so it seems to me from reconstructing the history, I wasn't around back then.
But isn't this because you equate the techno scene with the british techno scene? I think a german could say something like "well, the british had their own little thing going, but they didn't make any impact on the techno scene per se until '92", because very little british music filtered into Germany until then, even though belgian and italian music did (at least if you're to use german compilation albums from the time as evidence).

dominic
19-03-2005, 05:29 PM
i mentioned this record earlier in the thread but gave the wrong label . . . .

the label is cyclotron and the act is called slot and the record is "dance" btw "accelerate" -- it's german from 1991

i listened to this record last night and it really holds up well -- it sounds "german," but there's more going on in the bass than i recalled -- i mean this record is only a hair's breadth away from sounding like northern bleep 'n' bass

i have another record on the same label by the rising high people -- "the head ep" -- really wicked jungle but with some ambient space in the production (and yet you'd be mistaken to say it anticipates 95 artcore, i.e., it's a different kind of ambient feel)

in fact cyclotron appears to have licensed several records from rising high back in 1991 -- so perhaps there was some kind of weird cultural exchange going on b/w the two camps

here's the discogs link:

http://www.discogs.com/label/Cyclotron

dominic
19-03-2005, 05:33 PM
in fact looking at the cyclotron records on discogs, it would appear that underground resistance camp was also involved

so you kinda had a detroit-frankfurt-rising high menage a trois going on

DigitalDjigit
19-03-2005, 06:37 PM
But isn't this because you equate the techno scene with the british techno scene? I think a german could say something like "well, the british had their own little thing going, but they didn't make any impact on the techno scene per se until '92", because very little british music filtered into Germany until then, even though belgian and italian music did (at least if you're to use german compilation albums from the time as evidence).

Touche.

dominic
21-03-2005, 04:38 PM
also about the belgians . . . .

i remember reading somewhere that "father forgive them" by holy noise (on hithouse in 1990) was the first rave track to use the amen break

holy noise went on to make such belgian classics as "get down everybody" and "the noise"

DigitalDjigit
22-03-2005, 06:44 PM
That depends of "We are IE" came out in 1989 or not. But really, the Amen break was just another break until Jungle came along. Weren't italians using Think break all over the place in 1989. There's even a trance track "Summer '89" by California Sunshine (done in the mid-90's, some kinda nostalgia thing I guess) that has that break.