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mistersloane
27-10-2009, 01:45 AM
I'm doin a thing and it's gonna be shown at the Tate Modern on Saturday, and I wouldn't normally do this, but if anyone's got anything to say on telepathy, or remote viewing, or psychic experiences, then I'd like to hear it.

Is it OK to say that if anyone doesn't want their experiences potentially used as subtitles to a film then don't post? I've got most of what I'm using ( as 'material') already but I kinda thought, well, may as well ask everyone on here cos I really appreciate everyone who is on here. It's not a big thing, it'll just be used as projections in the turbine hall and I'm not getting paid, and I doubt I'll use the work again, so no payment, but I'll credit anyone, but it might be brief and oh god whatever.

Anyway.

Well, when my mum died, I was in Manchester and I keeled over - not knowing she was dead - and was sick, and subsequently have had alot of experiences whereby when someone has died that I've known (not even personally, i.e. Michael Jackson) I've been sick, spontaneously. What's that about?

nomadthethird
27-10-2009, 03:37 AM
I'm doin a thing and it's gonna be shown at the Tate Modern on Saturday, and I wouldn't normally do this, but if anyone's got anything to say on telepathy, or remote viewing, or psychic experiences, then I'd like to hear it.

Is it OK to say that if anyone doesn't want their experiences potentially used as subtitles to a film then don't post? I've got most of what I'm using ( as 'material') already but I kinda thought, well, may as well ask everyone on here cos I really appreciate everyone who is on here. It's not a big thing, it'll just be used as projections in the turbine hall and I'm not getting paid, and I doubt I'll use the work again, so no payment, but I'll credit anyone, but it might be brief and oh god whatever.

Anyway.

Well, when my mum died, I was in Manchester and I keeled over - not knowing she was dead - and was sick, and subsequently have had alot of experiences whereby when someone has died that I've known (not even personally, i.e. Michael Jackson) I've been sick, spontaneously. What's that about?

Congrats! Sounds fun. I have lots of stories like that but they're all pretty standard and boring...

muser
27-10-2009, 09:32 AM
load of bollocks.

mistersloane
27-10-2009, 10:17 AM
load of bollocks.

that's such a genius sentence to project in the turbine hall

pattycakes
27-10-2009, 12:04 PM
on the 31st of august 1997 i woke up at about 5am and for some reason instinctively went straight to turn my tv on and saw that lady diana had just died.

hmm

massrock
27-10-2009, 12:14 PM
Terence McKenna liked to point out that we forget how remarkable it is that we can project thoughts from one mind to others by issuing special sounds from our mouths.

swears
27-10-2009, 01:21 PM
Once when I was chonged out of my mind I thought I could hear my mate's thoughts, it was really exciting... then i realised he was actually just talking to me.

zhao
27-10-2009, 01:27 PM
it is belief in loads of bollocks like this, and spirits flying about, and the yeti, and astrology, that is obstructing humanity's path to a future rational utopia where logic is the sole guiding principle of life. anyone who believes in bollocks like this should be, sorry to be blunt, lined up and shot.

massrock
27-10-2009, 01:33 PM
http://blarblar.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/spock-scotty-mind-meld.jpg
logikal telepathik facepalm

martin
27-10-2009, 01:35 PM
Telepathy's real, but I've always been rubbish at remote viewing. Like most folk, deaths and births tend to trigger it, but I've also used it to: inform someone I'd run out of credit on my pay as you go phone, prompting them to call me immediately; persuade three cops to leave me alone and run off down a side-road instead; wish a missing person happy birthday; piss about with Zener cards and look 'well deep'; secure toys I wanted as a child - it's all pretty mundane, really, nothing you couldn't do with a mobile. I've also had numerous wake-up calls when certain people were in trouble (or more often than not, having a melodramatic panic) at inconvenient hours.

However, it seems the older you get (especially if you drink regularly), the more your reception deteriorates in quality. Still, last week, I was standing at the bar and I suddenly had this crystal clear thought, "IT MUST BE FUN TO ROB A BANK". Then this guy next to me turns round to his girlfriend and says, "I'd love to rob a bank". Like a psychic mexican wave.

But then again, I once did an ESP test and scored 0 out of 15 - apparently 3 is 'lower than average', 0 is like having the intuition of a wheelbarrow.

mistersloane
27-10-2009, 02:12 PM
Like a psychic mexican wave.
.

Genius

rob_giri
27-10-2009, 02:51 PM
Yea I have loads of stories, don't really know where to start. I 'am' 'a psychic', and have spent many years experiencing, integrating and developing this sort of awareness. Mays well just write some shit.

Telepathy and psychic perception are a form of communication and perception (respectively) that are more 'accelerated' than that of dualistic, mundane thinking and writing. Though the idea may seem farcifal, these things are really just natural extensions of everyday perception and are and have been a naturally occurring part of human consciousness for tens of thousands of years.

Quantum physics (bell's theorem) proves that particles can co-exist and/or be in complete communication with each-other regardless of their place in space and time - and it was this idea that inspired Robert Anton Wilson to say that the only thing faster than light itself, is Consciousness - in that exchanges of information from point a to point b are possible not via a local route, but rather by non-local co-existing sources of information and energy.

Virtually every tribal group the world over has developed their own language and mythology to relate to various forms of accelerated perception, including long-distance telepathy. The 'Bush Telegraph' is the modern Australian aboriginal phrase to relate to this phenomena, where various tribal groups would communicate with each-other through the intelligence of the trees via the natural magnetic fields of the earth.

Carlos Castaneda, whom most know for disseminating information of this ilk, coined the terms 1st and 2nd Attention - to relate to distinguishing between 'everyday' perception (tonal) and 'psychic' perception (nagual).

Antero Alli has developed this definition further, to say that whereas 1st attention is the attention that is used to assign meaning and value to experienced information (using the intellect or 'lower' mind) 2nd attention is the attention that is linked directly with energy and phenomena, with no assigning of meaning and with no symbolic fixation - it is the pure perception of 'seeing' things as they are beyond all of the filters of symbolic perception (higher' mind). Herein lies the difference between the Symbolic and the Real.

The interesting thing is, of course, that both perceptions are neccessary. This correlates pefectly to the Astrological mapping of Gemini and Sagittarius and/or the 3rd and 9th House of the horoscope. Sag/9th House relates to experiencing the energy of life on a personal level, and Gem/3rd House relates to processing and communicating of that energy to the world at large. Intuition and Intellect - the Intuition needs to be grounded and served by the Intellect, just as the Intellect needs to be informed and guided and Intuition.

bla bla

Lichen
27-10-2009, 02:56 PM
Once when I was chonged out of my mind I thought I could hear my mate's thoughts, it was really exciting... then i realised he was actually just talking to me.

All we need to do is listen.

rob_giri
27-10-2009, 03:07 PM
I like that McKenna quote someone posted above too. This highlights the fact that in actual fact, our bodies are deeply complex instruments, constantly communicating with eachother (in social settings etc), irrespective of the fact that our conscious minds might be elsewhere. It has been said, if you could find a way of seeing in which you could see how it is that people communicate with eachother's bodies on a subconscious level, it would blow your mind.

Someone also mentioned that births and deaths trigger it. In the Tim Leary's 8-Circuit Brain model (also explored by Robert Anton Wilson and currently being explored and promoted by Antero Alli) it shows how things like psychic perception (Circuit 6) and telepathy (Circuit 7) can act as 'shocks' to their lower correlaries of emotional intelligence (Circuit 2) and intellectual intelligence (Circuit 3).

The Psychic intelligence of circuit 6 shocks the Emotional intelligence of circuit 2 with increasing levels of uncertainty, destabilizing the certainty brought on by emotional investment. In the same way, the territorial-fixations and subsequent emotional certitude of circuit 2 can act as an Anchor to the accelerated psychic perceptions of circuit 6. The more you know where you are certain in your life (reclaiming emotional-territorial intelligence for yourself) the more you can permit more uncertainty in your life. The more you learn to permit uncertainty (circuit 6), the more your perception of the world around you will EXPAND

The Mythic/Telepathic intelligence of circuit 7 shocks the conceptual intelligence of circuit 3 with increasing levels of indivisibility. Intellectual intelligence excells by comparing things to one another, setting up cognizance by a system of dualistic rationale. Having sudden experiences of 'Circuit 7' unity (deeply mystical experiences that people refer to when they talk about 'oneness', the kind of experiences that reveal our place as part of greater living organism of planet earth, for example) SHOCK the processes and formations of our personality on a conceptual level - literally blowing our minds. However, the more we can learn to solve our own problems and develop receptivity via things like meditation, learning to listen more to whats going on around us by paying attention (instead of wasting energy by drifting off in our thoughts), the more we can become receptive enough to the emanations of circuit 7 mythic intelligence. Our minds then become receptor vessels for a large intelligences to speak through us. Engaging, embodying and living out this sort of process - is what people refer to when they talk about Genius - and anyone in history or anyone we know who we refer to when we use this word, is the sort of person who has come to a good relationship with the parts of their being symbolized by circuit 3 and circuit 7 in this model imparticular.

What you think?

vimothy
27-10-2009, 03:11 PM
Surely you already know.

Mr. Tea
27-10-2009, 06:07 PM
...persuade three cops to leave me alone and run off down a side-road instead...

I hope our very own droid has used this one: "I'm not the droid you're looking for", etc. etc.

luka
28-10-2009, 09:30 AM
farcifal is a good word.

woops
28-10-2009, 09:56 AM
farcifal is a good word.

yeah, it's like the fall guy at the court of King Arthur

rob_giri
28-10-2009, 11:16 AM
interestingly, i automatically wrote that word and then had it challenged by the spellcheck - prompting doubt. it is a word, right ?

woops
28-10-2009, 11:19 AM
interestingly, i automatically wrote that word and then had it challenged by the spellcheck - prompting doubt. it is a word, right ?

it is now!
farcical / fanciful?

rob_giri
28-10-2009, 11:28 AM
i really can't find any mention of it anywhere on the net. it seems so natural

rob_giri
28-10-2009, 11:29 AM
oh no:

"Its so farcifal it could be straight out of a Monty Python sketch"

rob_giri
28-10-2009, 11:30 AM
Perhaps this is an example of my/our conceptual intelligence acting as a receptor and transformer of mytho-genetic intelligence. The DNA code has spoken, and thus - we have a new word !

mistersloane
29-10-2009, 12:23 AM
martin, I'm gonna use your sentences on saturday if that's ok

i'll post up what i've written after

i never really understood what leary was on about, unfortunately. I'm sure it's great, but i just never got it, and kinda wished i did i think.

mistersloane
29-10-2009, 12:30 AM
unfortunately I'm not allowed to use 'what a load of bollocks' at the tate apparently cos it's an open event, and there will be children there, and, um, children don't swear? i have no idea, i don't want to question the Ministry Of Art.

Mr. Tea
29-10-2009, 01:06 AM
As long as you don't use rob_giri's line about quantum mechanics, that's fine, because otherwise I will have no choice but to hunt you down and kill you.

His astrology looks sound, however.

rob_giri
29-10-2009, 10:58 AM
?

Perhaps I could have articulated it a bit clearer and not sounded so credulous. You don't see the value of understanding psychic and spiritual experiences with something like bell's theorem?

rob_giri
29-10-2009, 11:08 AM
Well Leary, despite other aspects of his history that discredit him (although nearly all of these are by his interpreters which either didn't understand him to begin with or simply hounded him as a poster-boy for a drug epidemic), probably offered the world the most with his 8-circuit brain model. It is astoundingly veritable, and is the most up-to-date model for understanding and reconciling various aspects of scientific and psychological reason with the millenia of esoteric information that there is available. This is not to mention the new forms of perception that are being birthed as a result of the infomation age and the like.

Antero Alli, acting as the current proponent of the model (and Robert Anton Wilson who died 3 years ago) offer simply the most distilled version of the model - and, aside from the late G.I Gurdjieff, offer (unfortunately) one of the only genuinely no-bullshit systems of understanding and engaging with the 'psychic and telepathic' thing you are talking about. Unfortuneately, everything else you read on the subject is mostly complete tripe. I do not blame anyone for being aggressively critical of metaphysical themes - what else to do when most of it is utter crap.

mixed_biscuits
29-10-2009, 11:23 AM
I ran a preliminary experiment on my (in)ability to sense whether someone behind me is staring at me or not - I guessed correctly 8/9 times (there is a 2% probability of getting 8 or more correct (?)). I couldn't guess whether they were nodding or shaking their head: 0/5 correct. Will do 100 trials tomorrow, using a random number generator to produce the staring behaviour.

mistersloane
29-10-2009, 12:28 PM
Well Leary, despite other aspects of his history that discredit him (although nearly all of these are by his interpreters which either didn't understand him to begin with or simply hounded him as a poster-boy for a drug epidemic), probably offered the world the most with his 8-circuit brain model. It is astoundingly veritable, and is the most up-to-date model for understanding and reconciling various aspects of scientific and psychological reason with the millenia of esoteric information that there is available. This is not to mention the new forms of perception that are being birthed as a result of the infomation age and the like.

Antero Alli, acting as the current proponent of the model (and Robert Anton Wilson who died 3 years ago) offer simply the most distilled version of the model - and, aside from the late G.I Gurdjieff, offer (unfortunately) one of the only genuinely no-bullshit systems of understanding and engaging with the 'psychic and telepathic' thing you are talking about. Unfortuneately, everything else you read on the subject is mostly complete tripe. I do not blame anyone for being aggressively critical of metaphysical themes - what else to do when most of it is utter crap.

I should probably have explained it better, I mean I've read Prometheus Rising and read alot of Gurdjieff - who I rate highly - I just never really got into breaking down systems of being into, um, systems of being, I don't really get it is the best way I can put it.

I understand about the Psionic Mind and I understand about True Emotional and True Intellectual states and whatever, but for me it's all such a masculine way of doing things, breaking things down into little compartments, which is I guess what I don't understand. I see why one would do it, but I'm not entirely sure that breaking things down like that isn't just a False Intellectual state in itself, y'know?

rob_giri
29-10-2009, 02:43 PM
To respond as best I can: Abso-fucking-lutely

Maps such as the 8-circuit brain and gurdjieff's are exactly what they are: maps. They are useful for navigational strategies, and that alone. Gurdjieff's entire premise was the fallacy of deluding yourself into thinking you have achieved something merely by intellectual understanding alone. You have to work at it to get results - and for that work, maps can be useful.

As Nick Pell recently said in relation to working with muscular tension, 'if you aren't changing the body directly, you're just programming your mind with more and more bullshit'

Antero Alli has said often that the whole reason he wrote Angel Tech 20 years ago, and indeed his new book The Eight Circuit Brain, is because he felt that in Leary's excessive theoretical masturbation and in Wilson's excessive anthropological explanations - what was missing was a hands-on manual for accessing the states and territories of consciousness that the model itself highlights. A working manual that is biased towards the authority of direct experience, not any mere map or model.

Etc etc.

So if you've read a lot of Gurdjieff and Wilson, what was missing for you? Was it just that you're not that interested in the theoretical side of it? These days I tend to think that being too invested in the theory is a disease of the mind, so from what you've said perhaps your right on track

rob_giri
29-10-2009, 02:50 PM
In the context of both these models - it can be said this way.

Working with understanding a map can be useful if it is helping your mind become more flexible to the value of indivisibility. In the context of the 8cb - that means rendering Circuit 3 (the intellect) more flexible so that it might anchor the emanations of Circuit 7 (the cosmos). The trick is that this also takes meditation to achieve, which is the 'act' of developing receptivity (non-action) so that the mind might be put at rest and 'surrendered' to serve a force higher than itself.

In any case - one learns the intellect is only useful if it learns to 'understand' the emotional centre, just as our volatile emotions can only be useful if we learn to tame them to the reason of our intellect.

In the case of Gurdjieff, the false intellectual centre is put to work alongside the emotional and physical centre - towards surrendering to the responses of the physical body and the movements of the emotions. Once a syncrony has been developed enough and false-identification weeded out, crystallisation of the higher emotional and intellectual centres can be 'achieved'.

Mr. Tea
29-10-2009, 03:31 PM
?

Perhaps I could have articulated it a bit clearer and not sounded so credulous. You don't see the value of understanding psychic and spiritual experiences with something like bell's theorem?

No. For two reasons:

A result called the no-communication theorem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-communication_theorem) (the link is pretty technical but the first paragraph gives a basic description of the premise) shows that it's impossible to use entangled states to actually transmit information instantaneously, or at any speed faster than light. That's not to say that entangled states can't be used for other cool applications like quantum encryption, but here the information is still transmitted by light down an optic fibre in the normal way.

Secondly, it's incredibly difficult to maintain an entangled state between two particles over distances much greater than the size of an atom, because the moment either particle interacts with its environment, the state collapses and entanglement is lost. There's no way a particle in one person's head could be entangled with another particle in the next brain cell along, let alone with a particle in someone else's head.

I don't actually mind the the occult and the mystical, or the fringe psych stuff like Leary's 8-circuit brain - it's the pseudoscience that really drives me up the wall.

mistersloane
29-10-2009, 03:43 PM
No. For two reasons:

A result called the no-communication theorem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-communication_theorem) (the link is pretty technical but the first paragraph gives a basic description of the premise) shows that it's impossible to use entangled states to actually transmit information instantaneously, or at any speed faster than light.

Secondly, it's incredibly difficult to maintain an entangled state between two particles over distances much greater than the size of an atom, because the moment either particle interacts with its environment, the state collapses and entanglement is lost. There's no way a particle in one person's head could be entangled with another particle in the next brain cell along, let alone with a particle in someone else's head.

I don't actually mind the the occult and the mystical - it's pseudoscience that really drives me up the wall.

Um haven't talked much about quantum physics but did mention the theory by Penrose-Hameroff, which I think people are still arguing about, but only kinda mentioned it in passing that that was what they thought, not that it held as any 'fact'. I think I want to marry Roger Penrose, I bet he does shitloads of really good hallucinogens.

Mr. Tea
29-10-2009, 03:45 PM
Yeah, sorry, I know you didn't, but rob brought it up in one of his long-ish posts on the last page.

Penrose is indeed The Man.

mistersloane
29-10-2009, 03:49 PM
To respond as best I can: Abso-fucking-lutely

Maps such as the 8-circuit brain and gurdjieff's are exactly what they are: maps. They are useful for navigational strategies, and that alone. Gurdjieff's entire premise was the fallacy of deluding yourself into thinking you have achieved something merely by intellectual understanding alone. You have to work at it to get results - and for that work, maps can be useful.

As Nick Pell recently said in relation to working with muscular tension, 'if you aren't changing the body directly, you're just programming your mind with more and more bullshit'

Antero Alli has said often that the whole reason he wrote Angel Tech 20 years ago, and indeed his new book The Eight Circuit Brain, is because he felt that in Leary's excessive theoretical masturbation and in Wilson's excessive anthropological explanations - what was missing was a hands-on manual for accessing the states and territories of consciousness that the model itself highlights. A working manual that is biased towards the authority of direct experience, not any mere map or model.

Etc etc.

So if you've read a lot of Gurdjieff and Wilson, what was missing for you? Was it just that you're not that interested in the theoretical side of it? These days I tend to think that being too invested in the theory is a disease of the mind, so from what you've said perhaps your right on track

I must check Antero Alli, I got to him in my reading 'travels' but never delved, the *-Circuit Brain looks like fun.

I was very interested in the theoretical side for about 10 years. I think I stopped wanting to read didactic tracks by men (Wilson aside, who was so obviously fun) who I just thought I'd really hate if I met them in real life. As much as I think Gurdjieff was probably the only original thinker in that realm in the 20th century, I didn't want to learn what he wrote, it's the master/disciple thing. I agree with the maps thing - 777 etc are amazing too. I think I just got bored actually, which coincided with me starting to make my own work, which I found changed my brain and made me much more aware than reading someone's elses thoughts on their own brain.

I think ultimately I find it all really subjective, put forward as objective, and it just pisses me off.

Actually maybe I just got lazy.

mistersloane
29-10-2009, 03:50 PM
Yeah, sorry, I know you didn't, but rob brought it up in one of his long-ish posts on the last page.

Penrose is indeed The Man.

Ah no I meant in this thing I've been writing for the Tate!

Mr. Tea
29-10-2009, 03:58 PM
Ah no I meant in this thing I've been writing for the Tate!

Yeah I just checked back through the thread and realised that, sorry! :o

Penrose's ideas are really exciting, I mean trying to meld together a neural basis for consciousness with QM (edit: quantum GRAVITY, no less!), like he's chosen the two most weird and poorly-understood areas of science and tried to use one to explain the other...proper genius-cum-nutter stuff.

Your thing sounds pretty cool, I've got nothing on during the day so I might well pop along. Is it a one-off event?

muser
29-10-2009, 05:09 PM
unfortunately I'm not allowed to use 'what a load of bollocks' at the tate apparently cos it's an open event, and there will be children there, and, um, children don't swear? i have no idea, i don't want to question the Ministry Of Art.

wetty!

mistersloane
30-10-2009, 09:48 AM
Yeah I just checked back through the thread and realised that, sorry! :o

Penrose's ideas are really exciting, I mean trying to meld together a neural basis for consciousness with QM (edit: quantum GRAVITY, no less!), like he's chosen the two most weird and poorly-understood areas of science and tried to use one to explain the other...proper genius-cum-nutter stuff.

Your thing sounds pretty cool, I've got nothing on during the day so I might well pop along. Is it a one-off event?

It's in the evening from 7 - 10, www.tate.org.uk/youngtate

I feel like such a Glitter for doing something at a 'young people's' event. I'm sooooo far from that. There's bands (my nephew's band!) and um, Bill Oddie's daughter's band.

mistersloane
30-10-2009, 09:48 AM
wetty!

Yup, I think wetty might pass through the Ministry of Art :)

rob_giri
30-10-2009, 11:17 AM
Mr Tea:

Fair enough, I don't know anything about the link you've posted and don't know enough really about quantum mechanics and the like to talk about it from a confident place of authority - rather, I like talking about it in relationship to esoteric matters because it aids in keeping a more realistic and critical mind and certainly, the sense you get from reading this stuff greatly verifies the experiences. It is a feeling. I agree that the pseudoscience is a sham, and find it irritating in the extreme the jerks who think that any of the QM stuff can 'prove' anything like this.

In any case - I don't particularly need science to 'prove' or 'disprove' these things - as I rely on the authority of my direct experience, which I believe is the final source of authority.

Mistersloane:
"I think I just got bored actually, which coincided with me starting to make my own work, which I found changed my brain and made me much more aware than reading someone's elses thoughts on their own brain."

Brilliant. You shouldn't have it any other way

mixed_biscuits
31-10-2009, 04:39 PM
Short experiment with my brother today (sadly not requiring any invasive procedures):

17 coin tosses, correct predictions by brother before the coin landed: 9/17
17 coin tosses, correct predictions by brother after the coin landed; coin hidden to me: 9/17
17 coin tosses, correct predictions by brother after the coin landed; coin visible to me: 15/17

Chance of 15 or more correct guesses: 0.1%; *fanfare* telepathy exists :cool:

nomadthethird
31-10-2009, 04:40 PM
Short experiment with my brother today (sadly not requiring any invasive procedures):

17 coin tosses, correct predictions by brother before the coin landed: 9/17
17 coin tosses, correct predictions by brother after the coin landed; coin hidden to me: 9/17
17 coin tosses, correct predictions by brother after the coin landed; coin visible to me: 15/17

Chance of 15 or more correct guesses: 0.1%; *fanfare* telepathy exists :cool:

Chuckle.

All you'd have to do is guess right once and that'd be enough proof for some people.

mixed_biscuits
31-10-2009, 04:44 PM
All you'd have to do is guess right once and that'd be enough proof for some people.

We had to stop at 17, to limit wear and tear to my flicking finger.

We're still to do the 'is he staring at the back of my head test' - that's the one to get excited about.