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don_quixote
10-12-2009, 10:46 PM
y'know, i respect them for putting their lives on the line and stuff, but the 'our boys' tubthumping and the heroes stuff makes my stomach turn. it's not conscription folks.

Mr. Tea
10-12-2009, 11:46 PM
True...but there are areas where unemployment is so high and general career prospects so poor that joining the army can seem like the only realistic alternative to a life of dole and/or petty crime.

At least, this is an argument that's often put forward. I'm not talking from personal experience here.

scottdisco
10-12-2009, 11:58 PM
True...but there are areas where unemployment is so high and general career prospects so poor that joining the army can seem like the only realistic alternative to a life of dole and/or petty crime.

At least, this is an argument that's often put forward. I'm not talking from personal experience here.

anecdotal, but

certainly take up has gone up in areas of high unemployment during this recent slump (eg a lot of lads from Stoke signing up, apparently), and definitely have you noticed the last few years the massive upswing in pub toilet adverts for infantry (i can only speak for the gents, granted), but, certainly round the northwest, pub toilets have all those Queens Lancashire or whatever, no doubt lads needing a pee in the midlands get some Mercian regiment advert in front of them etc. just to the north of the porcelain

MAKE GREAT MATES
ACCOMO PAID FOR
LOTS OF HOLIDAYS
LEGS BLOWN OFF

oh, that fourth one i added myself
:slanted:

crackerjack
11-12-2009, 09:12 AM
anecdotal, but

certainly take up has gone up in areas of high unemployment during this recent slump (eg a lot of lads from Stoke signing up, apparently), and definitely have you noticed the last few years the massive upswing in pub toilet adverts for infantry (i can only speak for the gents, granted), but, certainly round the northwest, pub toilets have all those Queens Lancashire or whatever, no doubt lads needing a pee in the midlands get some Mercian regiment advert in front of them etc. just to the north of the porcelain

MAKE GREAT MATES
ACCOMO PAID FOR
LOTS OF HOLIDAYS
LEGS BLOWN OFF

oh, that fourth one i added myself
:slanted:

Hmm, the pubs near me mostly have signs up saying "it's not the flu, it's the vaccine", courtesy of David Icke's mad footsoldiers.

On the whole, I'd rather be in Aldershot.

luka
11-12-2009, 09:24 AM
id never rather be in aldershot.

its not just a money issue. a lot of people are genuinely aggressive. they like beating and killing and dominating.
some of my good friends are like this. im not being judgemental. the army is a good home for them.

baboon2004
11-12-2009, 10:35 AM
id never rather be in aldershot.


classic.

For an overview of this kind of thing, and a truly jawdropping televisual experience, watch 'Danny Dyer's Britain's Most Dnagerous Men' (or something like that). It's like seeing humanity die in front of your eyes.

Mr. Tea
11-12-2009, 12:32 PM
Aldershot soon to be renamed Alderblown-up?




(sorry)

sufi
11-12-2009, 12:40 PM
id never rather be in aldershot.

Military towns are shit;

Warminster,
Portsmouth (spent a night there this week - fucking grim... and i am usually not a badmouther)
wooton bassett has apparently got some good shopping, but it's only semi-military cos of that airbase...
any others?
in fact is there any military town that is nice??/?


(apparently excellent facilities at Diego Garcia)
http://carlvillanueva.tripod.com/0d216a10.jpg

vimothy
11-12-2009, 01:53 PM
This thread--yeesh.

sufi
11-12-2009, 02:30 PM
This thread--yeesh.
it was doomed from the start, can anyone rehabilitate?

vimothy
11-12-2009, 02:35 PM
No, let's pile on the generalisations--soldiers are all a bit thick and common, and they like getting drunk and causing fights! Except for the commisioned officers--they're all homosexual upper class toffs, nyah!

sufi
11-12-2009, 02:39 PM
i met a new neighbour in my block the other day,
perfectly charming chap
apropos of nothing at all, he says,
"yeh i'm just back from the army, i done my 5 years in the french foreign legion, check this bullet wound i got in afghanistan"
i was er taken aback to say the least

scottdisco
11-12-2009, 03:44 PM
nice one Vim, heh

well Soof your neighbour sounds friendly :cool:

i was playing pool w a US marine once and i asked him what he thought of British counterparts out in the field, and he said he liked those guys, but he could never get over their haircuts

@Crackerjack, where do you drink? yeesh. i'd be tearing those sorts of posters down i think, i can't stand Lizard Boy's barmy framework, really annoys out of all proportion i must be honest :o

crackerjack
11-12-2009, 03:56 PM
@Crackerjack, where do you drink?

at home, mostly :eek:

scottdisco
11-12-2009, 04:01 PM
^ haha nice one :D

yes that was rather personal in hindsight..

padraig (u.s.)
11-12-2009, 06:32 PM
This thread--yeesh.

with ya 110, buddy. except our officers aren't "homosexual upper-class toffs", they're "white xtian dudes from the South". I guess the stereotypes about common soldiers - dumb & aggro - are pretty much universal.

padraig (u.s.)
11-12-2009, 06:38 PM
in fact is there any military town that is nice??]

Pensacola (Florida, on the Gulf, at the very tip of the panhandle near Mobile) is pretty nice.

Attelaawabe
12-12-2009, 05:07 AM
There is really no way of knowing whether or not the stimulus was worth it, in terms of jobs either created or NOT lost without going back and re-living the last 9 months without it.
Calling plays after the game is always a pretty easy job. Anyone, republican or democrat, have any better ideas than the stimulus bill at the time? Where were they?


As to the inaccuracies on the website, well:

mistersloane
12-12-2009, 11:54 AM
We did our best gig in Portsmouth. It was in a room above the main nightclub there (called something like Disco Inferno or something) and it was free entry, so anyone from the nightclub below (which was fun, I danced to 'Umbrella') could come up and see what we were doing.
At one point a squaddie-type guy came up looking very smart - white cashmere V-necked jumper, looking very pilled or veeeeery drunk and stood next to me as a noise musician was doing a set accompanied by an avant-garde dancer.

After a couple of minutes :

(Him) "'Scuse me m8."
(Me) "Alright?"
(Him)"Er.....what are they doin?"
(Me)" Well, (points) he's making noise from his guitar. (points again) and she's dancing to it"

Silence.

(Him) "Oh. Right"

Walks off.

It was brilliant. I think I love Portsmouth.

don_quixote
12-12-2009, 12:00 PM
can i make it clear i have no beef with people in the army, i just have beef with the diefication and untouchability of them, whilst other public servants are vilified in comparison to them (apart from nurses!)

sufi
12-12-2009, 12:59 PM
- norfolk virginia -
:mad:

sufi
12-12-2009, 01:00 PM
can i make it clear i have no beef with people in the army, i just have beef with the diefication and untouchability of them, whilst other public servants are vilified in comparison to them (apart from nurses!)

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/davidhughes/100019275/how-many-border-agency-bosses-have-died-in-action-mr-woolas/

immigration and nationality martyrs brigade

scottdisco
13-12-2009, 03:10 PM
can i make it clear i have no beef with people in the army, i just have beef with the diefication and untouchability of them, whilst other public servants are vilified in comparison to them (apart from nurses!)

i hear ya on this very important issue wrt our tabloids etc but how many public servants put themselves in harm's way to the extent a soldier does every day?

many of my mates are public servants and i know teachers get assaulted, i know revenue office contact centre front-desk people get assaulted, i know police officers and firefighters (a leonine calling, clearly) and hospital personnel have it rough, and i quite agree it is a national disgrace how some of our tabloids manufacture outrage wrt some of the public sector, but at least the press are on the govt's back about relative lack of post-conflict support for de-mobbed soldiers etc, and if one way to keep feeding this is the somewhat simplistic diefication, then i say keep it coming.

scottdisco
13-12-2009, 03:20 PM
- norfolk virginia -
:mad:

i met a gorgeous businesswoman from there in Dublin last year, so, on that solipsistic basis, i call Norfolk alright ;)

they pronounce it a bit different to the good old English county i note, accents, fascinating stuff

Gavin
13-12-2009, 03:59 PM
i hear ya on this very important issue wrt our tabloids etc but how many public servants put themselves in harm's way to the extent a soldier does every day?

Soldiers are not public servants.

I see plenty of soldiers from every branch in DC. Always with a grim look on their face. Think that's the nature of the soldiers stationed here, more the careerist type (like everyone in DC) than the people who just want college tuition/healthcare.

scottdisco
13-12-2009, 04:11 PM
my apologies, i meant w specific regard to the British Army, who are managed by the UK govt agency the MoD and so are hence a public body.

clearly the likes of nurses and teachers have far greater impact on UK society, granted.

mms
13-12-2009, 08:42 PM
A guy i used to know, was a pub bouncer in Aldershot until he got glassed in the face, Totally fearless bloke, kick boxing champ but that made him give it up.

Yeah military towns, union street in Plymouth is a classic deathtrap, Navy one end, Army the Other, military police on constant watch, the two alleys that run on either side of it are just brothels.

I thought about joining the army once, what a thought that was!

zhao
14-12-2009, 09:10 AM
one of my best friends from highschool was court martialed from the Marines for, long story short, refusing to sign away his DNA as property of the US government, and leading a petition and movement against the then new practice. i'm unclear on the details but the legal battles were long and bitter... last i heard he is now a noise musician with a long beard (back to the man i knew and loved)

padraig (u.s.)
14-12-2009, 01:58 PM
refusing to sign away his DNA as property of the US government

do you know what year that was, roughly? I wonder if he was part of the Mayfield v. Dalton lawsuit. it's been mandatory since the early 90s that every service member provide a DNA sample. they're mainly used for identification of combat casualties in situations where fingerprints &/or dental records won't suffice but there is a kinda dubious special exception clause - enacted by Congress, not the military, following a rape at Fort Hood in 2002 - that allows the sample to be used for identification in prosecution of a felony or a non-felony sexual offense. in the lawsuit 2 Marines refused to give samples b/c they were afraid they might used to find risks for certain diseases & so on - which was never allowed under USMC policy (& which is explicity illegal following the GINA bill last yr). neither of them was, AFAIK, court-martialed. the case kinda simmered out cause they both went off active-duty & thus were no longer required to provide DNA samples. I don't know about a "movement" against it, but as a result of the case you can now have your DNA sample destroyed upon leaving the military.

I don't really have a problem w/any of it so long as everyone's clear about it going in. it makes sense for the military to have a DNA repository. I'm not crazy about the special exception clause but OTOH if you're not committing felonies or sexual assault you don't have anything to worry about.

padraig (u.s.)
14-12-2009, 02:05 PM
my apologies, i meant w specific regard to the British Army, who are managed by the UK govt agency the MoD and so are hence a public body.

no, he's right, soldiers still aren't public servants under that definition. the U.S. military is overseen by the DoD but civil service is specifically defined as everyone working for the government who's not in the military. it's the same in the UK, although you guys use the term "public/civil servant" informally a bit more broadly I think.

anyway, it was kind of a silly point to begin with b/c no one goes around comparing - detrimentally or otherwise - firefighters or nurses or even bureaucrats to soldiers.

scottdisco
14-12-2009, 02:22 PM
no, he's right, soldiers still aren't public servants under that definition. the U.S. military is overseen by the DoD but civil service is specifically defined as everyone working for the government who's not in the military. it's the same in the UK, although you guys use the term "public/civil servant" informally a bit more broadly I think.

anyway, it was kind of a silly point to begin with b/c no one goes around comparing - detrimentally or otherwise - firefighters or nurses or even bureaucrats to soldiers.

ha! i actually PM'ed Gavin to apologise for being a cock semantics wise, as i was only playing that out w specific regard to some of the UK tabloids (and didn't mean to explicitly make such a unsubtle analogy but y'all know my phrasing is sometimes a bit messy), who do actually routinely vilify teachers, bureaucrats, etc and will often attempt to shut down debates about unions etc w an aside about 'look at our boys in Afghanistan, now you shut up, you greedy pinko' (not too far from the actual commentary in the Express and Mail in particular, tbh)

one recent example of this is the cash pot shared in bonuses among loads of Security Service personnel, the fact that most of the dough consisted of sweeteners going to junior analysts pegging between about 16K and into the 20's etc (and most have to be based in London, hardly the cheapest city on earth) didn't figure into the manufactured outrage (and they really were going to town on it) from our Middle England sirens

very interesting wrt Mayfield v Dalton

zhao
14-12-2009, 02:52 PM
do you know what year that was, roughly? I wonder if he was part of the Mayfield v. Dalton lawsuit. it's been mandatory since the early 90s that every service member provide a DNA sample. they're mainly used for identification of combat casualties in situations where fingerprints &/or dental records won't suffice but there is a kinda dubious special exception clause - enacted by Congress, not the military, following a rape at Fort Hood in 2002 - that allows the sample to be used for identification in prosecution of a felony or a non-felony sexual offense. in the lawsuit 2 Marines refused to give samples b/c they were afraid they might used to find risks for certain diseases & so on - which was never allowed under USMC policy (& which is explicity illegal following the GINA bill last yr). neither of them was, AFAIK, court-martialed. the case kinda simmered out cause they both went off active-duty & thus were no longer required to provide DNA samples. I don't know about a "movement" against it, but as a result of the case you can now have your DNA sample destroyed upon leaving the military.

I don't really have a problem w/any of it so long as everyone's clear about it going in. it makes sense for the military to have a DNA repository. I'm not crazy about the special exception clause but OTOH if you're not committing felonies or sexual assault you don't have anything to worry about.

my friend is Mayfield... i guess i remembered wrong they faced court martial but then took another route or something....

padraig (u.s.)
14-12-2009, 06:14 PM
my friend is Mayfield... i guess i remembered wrong they faced court martial but then took another route or something....

no you may be right - they may have initiated the lawsuit to avoid facing court martial (as they were refusing a direct order when they declined to give a DNA sample). big hassle either way, I'm sure. I dunno everything about it, I just have a friend in law school who mentioned the case to me after I started talking to the USMC. the policy about DNA samples was enacted in, I think, '93, so I'm guessing your friend enlisted prior to that. small world & all that, anyway.

padraig (u.s.)
14-12-2009, 06:26 PM
who do actually routinely vilify teachers, bureaucrats, etc and will often attempt to shut down debates about unions etc w an aside about 'look at our boys in Afghanistan, now you shut up, you greedy pinko'

wow, that's nuts. certainly soldiers are routinely praised, and bureaucrats & unions among others vilified, in the U.S., but not in direct comparison to each other. that's actually a rather bizarre line of thought, not that one would expect flawless logic from right-wing British tabloids, I guess. esp. as the war is so deeply unpopular in the UK.

I guess that's kind of the flipside of the stereotyping soldiers as stupid & thuggish - holding them up as idealized paragons of virtue to satisfy or political agendas. the latter is, I think, even worse than the former b/c it's so exploitative & ultimately cynical.