Africans in Grime

Woebot

Well-known member
This is Luka's idea, but it got stuck on the end of some thread here ages ago, so I'm bringing it back with the hope someone can help fill in the gaps/plump up the theory a bit more.

His assertion is that what differentiates Grime in the history of UK Dance Music (OK, lets be explicit, the Ardkore Continuum) is the high percentage of second generation Africans who constitute its ranks.

Luka's observation is that the African community is possibly more ambitious, more deliberately self-motivated and aspiartional than the historic Afro-Caribbean community here. OK this may be contentious but I think there must be a lot of truth in this. The Afro-Caribbean population came here en-masse in the 50s and early 60s to fulfill a shortage in low-paid work; they volunteered for a better life in the UK, only to be gradually disillusioned. Its this nature of their arrival here that many people have argued qualifies their relationship to the host country, less troubled than that of the Africans who were enslaved and brought to America, but still not exactly happy (even at points miserable and opressed).

The first generation Africans who came here on the other hand came looking for a better life entirely of their volition. They're determined to "succeed" here, and here I'm just guessing, I suspect they may even represent the higher ranks of their own middle classes at home, or at least those whose ambitions are frustrated by the status quo in their own original countries.

The Afro-Caribbean community in London has traditionally centred on the West of London, certainly up untill the eighties in Notting Hill Gate, though that community has been shattered by the rise of house prices. The rise of Newham and E3 (the East) must surely be significant as a re-orientation in the orientation of UK Black Street Politix, and the theory goes that (at least within the framework of Grime) this is because the African community makes up a large portion of the population there. The fierce East-West battles internal to London may be better understood within this context, as a tussle between two hegemonies, the old Afro-Caribbean one and the new African one (though I may be reading too much into things here)

Luka's sleuthery centres on the high proportion of second generation Africans within Grime. I know Lethal B (Maxwell Owusu) is one such character, we locked horns as to whether D Double was a second-gen African (Luka, probably correctly insists he isnt, family hails from St.Lucia, though I could have sworn he says something which contradicts on the AIm High DVD). I cant remember which other examples Mnsr. Bisto gave, though I'd be grateful if he refreshed my memory.

I suppose its one of those assertions that, while it doesnt change anything, throws an interesting light on proceedings. I'm also intrigued by the ramifications it might have for my "Shanty House TM" theory. Certainly one couldn't even begin to align something as parochial as drum and bass within a Global Ardkore community. It might also shed light on Desi's inclusion within the schema, perhaps some kind of gutter post-colonial cosmopolitanism (scuse the expression), an 'off-world' non-local perspective is what characterises these musics vis a vis Desi's still-strong links to Bollywood consumerism, even Dancehall Ragga's now pan-Caribbean aspect (strong flavours of Mento/Reggaeton/Calypso/The Clave etc).

Also makes me ponder whether this trans-Global Cosmopolitanism, while once the preserve of the ruling classes, is now quite the opposite essentially that which binds the post-colonial proletariat. You could even argue that the ruling class now aspires to a super localism.
 
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simon silverdollar

Guest
nice one matt. i was hoping someone was going to bring this up again.

some questions;
how big was the african influence over jungle? wasn't that an east london, rather than west london, sound, at least initially- coming from the same areas as grime, with the same (relatively) high proportions of african immgirants?
also, some people like to point out the links between african polyrhythms and jungle, don't they? how much truth is there in that?

also, just how far was the case that african immigrants 'came of their own volition', in so far as that implies a reasonable choice situation? weren't many trying to escape civil war and political oppression? [rwanda, somalia, sudan, idi amin in uganda etc- actually, isn't dizzee's mum from uganda?] so, if african immigrants ARE particularly ambitious or optimistic, could there be another reason for this than the one you highlight?


also, you can see grime as the closest the london underground sound has ever got to dancehall- sonically, lyrically and also uh 'structurally' [MCs giving their own cut of a popular rhythm track, a focus on clashing and competition etc]. so could grime be seen as the most caribbean, or even jamaican, of all the 'nuum sounds, rather than a distinctly african take?
 

Pearsall

Prodigal Son
I passed out while I was waiting for 24 to come on, so now I'm awake, so now I'll say something about this. ;)

Going back to this thread I said:

One thing I'd like to hear would be African-influenced grime/dubstep. After all, a lot of the people involved in the scene are from African backgrounds (Lethal B, much of Ruff Squad, Remerdee from Essentials, and many more I'm sure) and there's lots of stuff that's obviously inlfuenced by Jamaican music.

and Luke said:

i've beeen suggesting someone write something about the influece of african immigraion on grime since 2001 or whatever, i'd do it but i'm very white although my stepmum/bruv.sis/are african someone step up#its important

As far as I know guys who are definitely the children of African immigrants include Lethal B, most of Ruff Squad afaik (Tinchy's real name is Kwesi, for instance), JME, and Remerdee. I also found this thread on RWD, which doesn't really clear things up.
 
why can't people just focus on the music? why does this anthropological stuff have to creep into everything? bunch of white guys talking about the relative qualities of african vs. afro-caribbean communties, no matter how informed, comes across as a bit off.
 

Pearsall

Prodigal Son
WOEBOT said:
The Afro-Caribbean community in London has traditionally centred on the West of London, certainly up untill the eighties in Notting Hill Gate, though that community has been shattered by the rise of house prices. The rise of Newham and E3 (the East) must surely be significant as a re-orientation in the orientation of UK Black Street Politix, and the theory goes that (at least within the framework of Grime) this is because the African community makes up a large portion of the population there. The fierce East-West battles internal to London may be better understood within this context, as a tussle between two hegemonies, the old Afro-Caribbean one and the new African one (though I may be reading too much into things here)

You're forgetting South london here, plus I don't think that East-West has much to do with Caribbean vs. African; its just standard neighborhood stuff (consider the pitched battles of the 70's and 80's between different football firms from different parts of London - the participants of which were mostly of the same white English backgrounds just differentiated by area). It's not like there's a clear-cut difference in terms of where the two groups live (see map here). I think it's simply a matter of 'repping your ends' as opposed to some kind of regional background conflict (consider how much Ruff Squad, who are mostly from African backgrounds, work with Roll Deep, the black members of which are mostly from West Indian backgrounds as far as I know). Sometimes you can read too much into things.
 
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Pearsall

Prodigal Son
b/v said:
why can't people just focus on the music? why does this anthropological stuff have to creep into everything? bunch of white guys talking about the relative qualities of african vs. afro-caribbean communties, no matter how informed, comes across as a bit off.

I don't agree with this at all. These are interesting issues, and in general its quite fun to look at music and refract out to where people come from.

If you want a white example (since you are waving the dread 'off' about), it's not like you can seriously talk about country music without discussing American history, the White South, industrialization vs. pastoralism, transplanted Ulster Presbyterianism, Appalachian individualism, the frontier mentality, and so on.
 

luka

Well-known member
that's a quote
'from jamacia not st. lucia' -d double e.-
east londons black population is not just african either, there's a significant west indian population too. it's a result of rising house prices, until recently you could afford to live in newham and tower hamlets. as prices rise there areas like ilford and dagenham are getting their own black populations. east london is the new power base.

the crux of this idea is that london's black population became a lot bigger as a result of african immigration in the 80s. if you look at grime's core audience, its young teenagers born in the 80s, in many cases the children of those same african immigrants or otherwise the children who grew up in a london changed by that wave of immigration. when i was at primary school in stratford and then plaistow africans were a rarity. you had white kids, afro-carribean kids and pakastani/indian kids and that was pretty much it. being african then had more of a stigma attached to it, i don't know how true that still is.

i think contrary to what simon claimed grime is actually the closest the continuum has come to US hiphop culture and my feeling is that hiphop represents something black kids of both west indian and african heritige can unite under. dancehall is still a huge influence of course but nothing like as big as it was in jungle, not even close. in jungle days people were wearing click suits and string vests now its akadmiks and new era and air force ones. and i think thats a significant shift and a telling one.

its not part of my argument to suggest grime is influenced by african music, i don't think it is.

it's saying grime is a symptom of a change in what it means to be black in london.

i wouldnt be suprised if a lot of ruff squad are first generation.

theres a much bigger african population in south than east too incidently.
 
Pearsall said:
These are interesting issues, and in general its quite fun to look at music and refract out to where people come from.

fair enough. i think the jargon and term coining puts me off, but i recognise that there's an audience for this discussion. i'll just stop reading, and let you get on with it.
 
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simon silverdollar

Guest
luka said:
my feeling is that hiphop represents something black kids of both west indian and african heritige can unite under. .

that's an interesting point
 

gumdrops

Well-known member
luka said:
my feeling is that hiphop represents something black kids of both west indian and african heritige can unite under.

you could say this about soul, ragga, reggae, whatever.
 
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Pearsall

Prodigal Son
redcrescent said:
Agreed, but didn't reggae do this before hiphop?

I'd imagine what Luke meant was that hip-hop can be sort of a 'neutral ground', that neither group is directly connected to.
 

Grievous Angel

Beast of Burden
gumdrops said:
you could say this about soul, ragga, reggae, whatever.
No, I think that sentiment lacks precision. Many Africans in the past have identified with reggae, and some have found common currency with other diasporic black communities. I suspect that today African reggae is more what the parents of African immigrants would have been into. I could imnagine that rap has a lot more common cultural currency today. And don't forget the sometimes extreme divisions and conflicts that can exist between carribean and African imigrants in London and elsewhere. These issues are not easy to analyse and I submit should not be dismissed too easily, or "understood" too quickly.
 

gabriel

The Heatwave
luka said:
dancehall is still a huge influence of course but nothing like as big as it was in jungle, not even close. in jungle days people were wearing click suits and string vests now its akadmiks and new era and air force ones. and i think thats a significant shift and a telling one.

yeah true but all the dancehall artists are now wearing these clothes too.. i'd imagine that if elephant man, vybz kartel and co were still wearing string vests (or anything else that us hip hop people don't wear), a signifcant number of young londoners (both grimy & not) would be as well...

plus lyrically, sonically and structurally grime surely owes much more to dancehall (style & pattern of rhyming, types of beats, use of patois and uk bastardisations of patois expressions, soundclashes, riddims etc) than hip hop.
 
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