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View Full Version : Is anyone in Grime/NUKG/Garage actually making any money?



Tactics
16-03-2005, 12:19 PM
I mean seriously - I mean apparently average vinyl sales are 500 - that aint really something that sounds ready for crossover imo. This is jus a thought so if anyone can offer anything else please do so. Its jus too many of these guys are always talking about p's but then I find out there still on giro's lol!!

Anyone?

3underscore
16-03-2005, 01:35 PM
The thing with the 500 copies angle is misleading.

Most of these 500 copies are sold from about five or ten shops - distribution is only just starting to span out a little with boomkat showing some records. Secondly, it is strictly vinyl, which encourages all those people who look for CDs more than happy to acquire the music online because it isn't available in their immediately preferred format. Third, there isn't really the press for the scene yet - as Sov started to get press (I know how this name will upset some folk, but...) sales went up to 3000 or so.

Generally, the signs are that given the opportunity, it could become viable.

Pearsall
16-03-2005, 02:04 PM
I'd be curious to find out how many copies the mix cd's/dvd's do. I think the vinyl sales are really low because the status of the dj is below that of the mc for the first time in the whole London continuum (I think the big jungle releases used to do tens of thousands of copies).

Plus vinyl prices have increased by a lot more than inflation. When I started buying records (late '95) they cost about 4.50 a shot, now it's like 7 standard. Big price jump.

Tactics
16-03-2005, 02:13 PM
CALLING LOGAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

he might be able to help with the sales of the DVD's and mixtapes...

p.s this has nothing to do with anything but I jus discovered a old N.A.S.T.Y set on my drive when they had D Dubs, Footsie and Monkey w/ Kano, Ghetto and the rest broadcast on 1xtra dated 31 12 03 during a series called 'East Is East' - mad...theres one bass mash up of 'Ground Zero' that is jus amazing....I might have to upload it somewhere....

dev79
16-03-2005, 10:34 PM
u should def upload that set!!!

Tactics
17-03-2005, 12:23 AM
im listening to a playback of Richie 'Vibe' Vee and Alias (with their swag selves) said they shifted 3000 of 'Gladiator' and 2000 of 'Warriors' so perhaps there is....

Logan Sama
17-03-2005, 08:21 AM
Wile does around 2000 whites per release.

Most good tracks do between 750 and 1200 units.

DVDs get sold to shops for between 6 and 8 pounds each and sold on for 12-18 pounds. So the makers and the shops make a lot of profit off DVDs

Tactics
17-03-2005, 02:22 PM
Wile does around 2000 whites per release.

Most good tracks do between 750 and 1200 units.

DVDs get sold to shops for between 6 and 8 pounds each and sold on for 12-18 pounds. So the makers and the shops make a lot of profit off DVDs


i know about the dvd dealer prices having done work experience inna west end music shop but how much are they actually selling? e.g. 1000 units more or less?

if you have mixtape info that would be good too

Logan Sama
17-03-2005, 03:02 PM
Between 2 and 8 thousand units of DVDs

Mix cds is a bit different.

They have just started selling Guns n Roses in HMV so that should skew the figures in a positive direction

Tactics
17-03-2005, 03:09 PM
Between 2 and 8 thousand units of DVDs

Mix cds is a bit different.

They have just started selling Guns n Roses in HMV so that should skew the figures in a positive direction


8000!!!! F****** Hell!!! Do you how they got it in HMV cos I remember when UK Hip Hop companies like Fast Forward (R.I.P) were struggling to get stuff in there - I mean im sure it is illegal cos have ruff sqwad got the necessary license to duplicate thousands of units aswell as sample clearance for some those beats...I doubt it...

pls see my other thread cos I would like to hear Target today....

xero
17-03-2005, 03:21 PM
8000!!!! F****** Hell!!! Do you how they got it in HMV cos I remember when UK Hip Hop companies like Fast Forward (R.I.P) were struggling to get stuff in there - I mean im sure it is illegal cos have ruff sqwad got the necessary license to duplicate thousands of units aswell as sample clearance for some those beats...I doubt it...

pls see my other thread cos I would like to hear Target today....

HMV can carry bootlegs & other copyright-infringing material with impunity because they are so large an organisation with so much power in the record industry and financial resource at their disposal that no one is able to sue them for it

blissblogger
17-03-2005, 04:33 PM
so what's the profit margin on a 12 inch that retails at 7.99?

the store presumably takes it at 4 or at most 5 quid. if there's a distributor in between that lessens what goes to the producer/label

with a pressing of 1000 or less, the per unit cost of production must be quite high

seems (from my gueestimates) the producer could make between 1000 quid and 2000 quid per release tops

what about MCs, do they get a cut for their performances? how big? is it a one-off payment or a cut based on sales?

DVDS --what are the per unit costs of a DVD? do the dozens of performers and producers involved all get paid?

i can see why the scenes churns out stuff, it must be the only way to see any $$$

hard graftin!

Pearsall
17-03-2005, 05:22 PM
Profit margin on vinyl is not great, especially on runs of 500-1000 copies (above that per unit cost goes down, economies of scale and all that). I think that's why so many of the grime guys distribute their stuff by themselves, because it takes the middleman out of the equation and means more money for them.

I know a guy who runs a hardcore label and generally he presses about 500 copies per release, and then presses another 500 or sometimes more as demand dictates. He does the distribution himself, but production costs eat up over a pound per release. He sells a lot of his stuff directly off his website, which keeps him breaking even, but there isn't much profit in vinyl, it all just goes towards other releases.

I'd be surprised if many of the grime guys made money off of vinyl releases. I think they serve as calling cards more than anything, and that there's more money to be made in mix cd's and dvd's and from licensing fees for tracks being played on the radio and being licensed to legal compilations.

Tactics
17-03-2005, 05:30 PM
the thing is how many legal compilations are there? not many plus im sure many of these guys aren't even signed to PRS and MCPS cos of the fact that a lot of the tunes sample illegally plus they dont have the correct licence to be pressing up such quantities...

i think dealer price for vinyl is 3.50 tops - I know Uptown does that at least. I think the biggest earner is still raves where the biggest names can still earn in one big night the equivalent of 1000 units sometimes. Other than that: 'hi ho hi ho, its off to the block we go'...........

Pearsall
17-03-2005, 05:34 PM
Yeah, I was thinking of dance music in general (where the big money is in events and compilations). Grime/whatever hasn't had many compilations, and what has been released has been ruthlessly pirated. Plus there don't seem to be that many events, certainly far less than jungle events when jungle was at its height both of popularity and notoriety, plus there's so many more mc's these days than then.

What is interesting is how much we all talk about it versus how big it actually is in reality. I guess its the potential, plus the fact that its new, so there's new shit to say about it.

Tactics
17-03-2005, 05:46 PM
Yeah, I was thinking of dance music in general (where the big money is in events and compilations). Grime/whatever hasn't had many compilations, and what has been released has been ruthlessly pirated. Plus there don't seem to be that many events, certainly far less than jungle events when jungle was at its height both of popularity and notoriety, plus there's so many more mc's these days than then.

What is interesting is how much we all talk about it versus how big it actually is in reality. I guess its the potential, plus the fact that its new, so there's new shit to say about it.


sorry about that - here's me being all grime centric lol....

to stop the piracy, I think, when promoting only hand out specials ie. tunes with the DJ's names featuring cos if someone boots it then at least you know who. Tough (you cant do every DJ) and time consuming I know but could pay off in terms of first week sales....

its true though - I was telling someone last week that London isn't entirely locked on to and supporting the sound yet so how is it supposed to go worldwide? It's not even at the point where there's a event every week...the only way its surviving is on pirate radio and whats gonna happen when they turn off analogue?

The potental though is very much still in the balance imo. People need to start seriously thinking why there in this and then set their goals accordingly.

Grievous Angel
17-03-2005, 05:47 PM
Like yer style

My calculation:

RRP: 8
Dealer margin: 40%
Retained margin: 4.80
Distributor commissing: 1.50 (but I think most of this is done direct)
Pressing: 1 (could be easily be more like 1.50 -- I'm assuming they buy in Poland)

Net for producer 2.30 X 500 = 1,150
Net for producer 2.30 X 1000 = 2,300

Assume you go direct and the net is 3.80, which = 1,900 to 3,800 for 500 / 1000 units.

As for DVDs, dupe and on body print for 1000 will cost around 2 a unit. For 8000 I reckon this would drop to about 1.60. With a dealer price of between 6 and 8 pounds each and a sell-through of 8,000, retained margin would be between 26,400 and 51,200 assuming they go direct to the shop and they make it themselves. Now, that's more like it, but you can't sell that many a year, not in volumes of 8,000, and you'd probably need to split the take between a number of people. (I presume there's lots of different artists on each... you could pay the performers say 200 a time for rights in perpetuity...)

BTW I can't help thinking that a retail price of 8 puts a pretty stringent limit on the market...

[But you have to account for cashflow especially VAT, on dealer price -- so if you do one 12" a month and sell a thousand of each, every quarter you need ready cashflow of 840 (3 X 4,800 X 17.5% = 840). That cash could be difficult for a small firm to find if the shops don't pay on time.]

Grievous Angel
17-03-2005, 05:49 PM
HMV can carry bootlegs & other copyright-infringing material with impunity because they are so large an organisation with so much power in the record industry and financial resource at their disposal that no one is able to sue them for it
I think it's more that responsibility for sample clearance lies with the producer and duplicator ("the publisher"), not with the retailer.

Pearsall
17-03-2005, 05:52 PM
to stop the piracy, I think, when promoting only hand out specials ie. tunes with the DJ's names featuring cos if someone boots it then at least you know who. Tough (you cant do every DJ) and time consuming I know but could pay off in terms of first week sales....

On a RWD thread (I'll need to find it) someone (maybe Plasticman?) was talking about how a lot of the big dnb dj's do little tweaks for when they give out cd's to different dj's like adding an extra high-hat in certain places or taking out a bass not, things that people wouldn't notice, but so that they can easily find out who leaked the tune if it makes its way onto a p2p service well before release.


its true though - I was telling someone last week that London isn't entirely locked on to and supporting the sound yet so how is it supposed to go worldwide? It's not even at the point where there's a event every week...the only way its surviving is on pirate radio and whats gonna happen when they turn off analogue?

I had completely forgotten they were doing the switch-over to digital. When's that happening?

Tactics
17-03-2005, 06:04 PM
4 years time I think...it sounds like a long time but it aint especially with D.T.I going beserk recently their money will get smaller and smaller which will jus sort the wheat from the chaff ie. your Aftershock from your Musical Mob lol

Tactics
17-03-2005, 06:08 PM
I think it's more that responsibility for sample clearance lies with the producer and duplicator ("the publisher"), not with the retailer.


in the states though I remember shops and even pressing plants getting shut down for selling and pressing mixtapes with un cleared material during one of their copyright blitzses. That is america though not england cos the system has way more cracks here....

hint
17-03-2005, 06:26 PM
I think it's more that responsibility for sample clearance lies with the producer and duplicator ("the publisher"), not with the retailer.

correct - sample clearance is down to the artist, label and publisher. but pressing plants can still get in trouble for pressing uncleared material because it should all be "above board" and registered with MCPS before pressing commences. so in order for material with uncleared samples to be pressed up, everybody in the chain is technically liable - the artist should point out samples to the label, who should clear them and then register the publishing info, which should then be submitted to and checked by the pressing plant... if that makes sense... but, of course, when it comes to uncleared samples it's all about the liklihood of being caught so all sorts gets put out there.

the issues with HMV is that (as I understand it) the punishment for selling bootlegs is a flat fine. they can easily afford this and, I assume, sell enough of the illegal material to still make money even after paying the fine, so they carry on regardless. but let's be clear that by bootleg I mean unofficial mo'wax pressings and the like, not material with uncleared samples - the latter has no effect on the retailers whatsoever.

blissblogger
17-03-2005, 06:57 PM
blimey, paul, that's an incredible breakdown, you sound like you know your p&D & retail shit inside out

so i guess someone like Wiley, who puts out something every month seemingly, could be quite well-off? yet must also have to invest in his gear?

it's a vicious circle perhaps -- selling less, so you have to up the mark-up to get a good return on small-runs of vinyl, leading to people be more picky about what they buy... you could call it the Dead C syndrome

when i go through stuff in black market or uptown, i'm inclined to give a release i'm not 100 sure about, the NON-benefit of the doubt whereas jungle days i would do the opposite (resulting in a lot of tunes i subsequently was unable to work out why exactly i bought them)

presumably a lot of the vinyl is only bought by djs and aspiring MCs

the fact that the music even more than jungle really comes alive and reaches fruition in the mix, on air, with guys shouting over it, must incline people to stick with their pirate tapes, or wait for the DVDs

i was talking to jammer the other day (no i was, honestly, in a williamsburg cafe where he looked kinda uncomfortable) and he said there was only about 4 grime pirates -- and way more other ones. the other ones he said, had better broadcast radiuses, better rigs, cos they were more established and had older experienced people running them -- anybody know if this is true? he's probably got an East-centric viewpoint though

it is a smaller scene clearly, than it would appear from the amount of noise it generates

Pearsall
17-03-2005, 07:03 PM
(no i was, honestly, in a williamsburg cafe where he looked kinda uncomfortable)


OT but which one? Verb? That's pretty funny.

blissblogger
17-03-2005, 07:09 PM
i can't remember the name, it was near N 6th and Whythe, kind of a teashop vibe, a little garden with a fountain in the back. Quite near Academy Records.

He and the MCs asked for coca colas, spurning the array of machiatos, lattes and mochas on offer. i guess it's not the sort of place they'd probably go to in england.

hint
17-03-2005, 07:16 PM
if you're pressing up 1,000 and shops are selling at 7.99 you only really need to sell about 300 to break even on production costs - and that's if you're giving a cut to a distributor and getting a sleeve and printed labels too.

so a one-man operation (producer pressing his own 12"s and self-distributing) putting out white labels could do quite well out of 700-800 sales... enough to make it worthwhile and fund the next release, at least.

the higher retail price helps you pull in more cash for relatively low sales (obviously)... but does it mean fewer sales due to overpricing, though?

mms
17-03-2005, 07:44 PM
if you're pressing up 1,000 and shops are selling at 7.99 you only really need to sell about 300 to break even on production costs - and that's if you're giving a cut to a distributor and getting a sleeve and printed labels too.

so a one-man operation (producer pressing his own 12"s and self-distributing) putting out white labels could do quite well out of 700-800 sales... enough to make it worthwhile and fund the next release, at least.

the higher retail price helps you pull in more cash for relatively low sales (obviously)... but does it mean fewer sales due to overpricing, though?


there is a probably a big hike between the sales price and the dealer price and alot of guessing/dealing/bluffing going on.
if the w/labels were getting sold to hmv which they ain't, there would probably be a demand from the shop to cut the dp so the sales price is cheaper, ie relelntless sold forward riddim at a more reasonable price in hmv singalong doesn't get remotley near it unfortunatley
fact is when the indie garage stores are the only people selling the records they can afford to have 'import price' eps, overheads for stores in soho etc are probably massive as well i imagine.
It's another issue that will need to be met when shops start to ask for the records etc unless of course some ridiculous standard is set by the very expensive prices of grime records which will become a hinderance.

Grievous Angel
17-03-2005, 08:09 PM
blimey, paul, that's an incredible breakdown, you sound like you know your p&D & retail shit inside out
I used to when I was doing music multimedia licensing and distribution deals in the mid-nineties... I keep cmy hand in a bit cos I'm involved in Dust. Martin's really switched on about it now. Suddi from Together and Tom C from Headspace over at UKD really know their shit.

Key distribution clause to watch out for: shrinkage / wastage. They'll write in the contract that they can lose up to 15% of volume to "wastage" without paying you for it. So 15% of your stuff can be broken, nicked out the warehouse, or just sold and not paid for, and there's nothing you can do about it. See also P&D deals with inflated production costs.

so i guess someone like Wiley, who puts out something every month seemingly, could be quite well-off?
Potentially. But for how long? The point made up-thread about the value of shows is well-made: they're lucrative. But there aren't that many shows.

yet must also have to invest in his gear?

That's cheap. Studios to finish things off are pretty cheap too. I mean, DIzzee finished Boy off round the corner from me in Sheffield. Cheap as chips for a pro sound.

it's a vicious circle perhaps -- selling less, so you have to up the mark-up to get a good return on small-runs of vinyl, leading to people be more picky about what they buy... you could call it the Dead C syndrome

That's why I keep banging on about the economics of dance music in general and garage in particular having changed in scale utterly since 1999. Retail outlets, media outlets, venues, radio, above all scale of audience, none of it is what it was then, as far as I can tell.

the fact that the music even more than jungle really comes alive and reaches fruition in the mix, on air, with guys shouting over it, must incline people to stick with their pirate tapes, or wait for the DVDs

Yes. And DVDs are an interesting product extension in Grime, borrowed from Happy Hardcore I think! It's an extension of the desktop revolution. If your computer can do music, it can probably do DVDs.

mms
17-03-2005, 08:17 PM
Key distribution clause to watch out for: shrinkage / wastage. They'll write in the contract that they can lose up to 15% of volume to "wastage" without paying you for it. So 15% of your stuff can be broken, nicked out the warehouse, or just sold and not paid for, and there's nothing you can do about it. See also P&D deals with inflated production costs.

so i guess someone like Wiley, who puts out something every month seemingly, could be quite well-off?
Potentially. But for how long? The point made up-thread about the value of shows is well-made: they're lucrative. But there aren't that many shows.

yet must also have to invest in his gear?

That's cheap. Studios to finish things off are pretty cheap too. I mean, DIzzee finished Boy off round the corner from me in Sheffield. Cheap as chips for a pro sound.
.


if you have a knowledgeble accountant you can probaby claim back spending on gear in income tax as well.
wastage and also returns are real fuckery.
fuck knows what kinda deal roll deep have sprung for their album but i reckon they will steadily roll out with the underground releases and may pull the whole thing up, maybe bring down the price .

lot of cash to be made from licencing and publishing, maybe these guys are into this, i saw get meby bruiser on a tv advertised cd in my local tesco's the otherday.

hint
17-03-2005, 08:27 PM
there is a probably a big hike between the sales price and the dealer price and alot of guessing/dealing/bluffing going on.

Yeah - I suppose so... I guess it's clear if you look at the difference in price between whites on juno and the same whites in uptown... but it's always been the case that some shops add 40%, some 30%



if the w/labels were getting sold to hmv which they ain't, there would probably be a demand from the shop to cut the dp so the sales price is cheaper, ie relelntless sold forward riddim at a more reasonable price in hmv singalong doesn't get remotley near it unfortunatley

on a slight side note - I noticed singalong on zzonked's promo list and that doesn't come cheap... who's behind the label?



It's another issue that will need to be met when shops start to ask for the records etc unless of course some ridiculous standard is set by the very expensive prices of grime records which will become a hinderance.

perhaps once it expands beyond london (in retail terms) we'll see more variation in price - r'n'b is even more expensive in uptown than grime...! :eek: "london tax"

mms
17-03-2005, 08:36 PM
perhaps once it expands beyond london (in retail terms) we'll see more variation in price - r'n'b is even more expensive in uptown than grime...! :eek: "london tax"

well, everything at import prices eh?
a shop that sells us hip hop and r and b imports will probably not think about costing grime at the same price. its a bit of a bluff i think.
as for singlong on szzonked's mailing list, did you check what label it was on, maybe its been signed by a major?
either that or some fresh faced at zzonked has saif they'll do the press for free or cheap in good faith.

hint
17-03-2005, 08:47 PM
well, everything at import prices eh? a shop that sells us hip hop and r and b imports will probably not think about costing grime at the same price. its a bit of a bluff i think.

it's what led me to think that there's just a (relatively high) flat percentage being slapped on. domestic 12"s come out at 7, imports at 9... rather than 5 and 7 in less specialist stores with similar stock.



as for singlong on szzonked's mailing list, did you check what label it was on, maybe its been signed by a major?
either that or some fresh faced at zzonked has saif they'll do the press for free or cheap in good faith.

still in the hood or whatever the label's called... got artwork as well on the copies in independance and blackmarket, so there's a definite push going on. quite right too.

might be "doing a casual" - that sunship / warrior queen 12" has only just been properly released, hasn't it? did the rounds in the specialist shops and on promo quite a while ago.

mms
17-03-2005, 08:56 PM
i has only just been properly released, hasn't it? did the rounds in the specialist shops and on promo quite a while ago.

yeah i didn't realise this was the case till i got some record shop mailouts on monday.
btw skreamz has done a remix that is just amazing on no uncertain terms.
i'm not sure whether it will ever get a public press tho
too much inertia there maybe.

my feeling is gype is being pumped several google pages of shop listings

hint
17-03-2005, 09:04 PM
yeah - heard the screamz mix... you know I always check jay da flex :D

seems to be a little acapella-refix industry growing around his show... stuff like ce'cile, warrior queen, bugz, sovereign... all getting reworked by a few different people. might try and fish for a few plays from him myself, cos I'm always sticking acapellas on tracks I intend to send to MCs (eventually).

3underscore
17-03-2005, 10:34 PM
I agree pretty much with Paul's calculations, though the Poland route isn't without its difficulties. I actually think the price for Poland may be a bit low compared to the prices I used to get in the Czech Republic.

It sounds (off the vinyl) likely that a lot of them use Eastern Europe. They will press off a four-track tape recording if you want them to, and it is often the only way to make a small scale release viable. I don't know how it is now, but Eastern Europe always used to involve quite a fair amount of hassle either getting someone to deal with your vinyl (at about 100 fee, something I doub would be entertained) or a shit-load of paperwork at the airport (my prefered option!).

When I priced up 1000 twelves in London a few years back, you were talking about 1500 with just white labels. My guess is that is the way a lot of this goes - it is so much less hassle. I wouldn't be surprised if the better presented labels (Terror Rhythm, Big Apple) were going east europe - the release may actually cost them less, irrespective of the label design, coloured vinyl or whatever.

All the same, I found that releasing 12" vinyl is a very quick way to spend a student loan. 40% mark up in shops sounds like someone getting a good deal from a shop from my experience - outwith Uptown, I reckon they will get hit worse.

Pearsall
17-03-2005, 10:49 PM
I remember Logan saying that somewhere in Hackney would do 500 whites for 500 quid. Let me find it.

Edit: Found it! (http://www.dissensus.com/showthread.php?t=412&page=2&pp=15&highlight=hackney)


We use JTS in Homerton, near Hackney

It's on Digby road

Speak to freddie regarding mastering. 499 for 500 whites, paying with cash.

02079853000

xero
17-03-2005, 11:46 PM
correct - sample clearance is down to the artist, label and publisher. but pressing plants can still get in trouble for pressing uncleared material because it should all be "above board" and registered with MCPS before pressing commences. so in order for material with uncleared samples to be pressed up, everybody in the chain is technically liable - the artist should point out samples to the label, who should clear them and then register the publishing info, which should then be submitted to and checked by the pressing plant... if that makes sense... but, of course, when it comes to uncleared samples it's all about the liklihood of being caught so all sorts gets put out there.

the issues with HMV is that (as I understand it) the punishment for selling bootlegs is a flat fine. they can easily afford this and, I assume, sell enough of the illegal material to still make money even after paying the fine, so they carry on regardless. but let's be clear that by bootleg I mean unofficial mo'wax pressings and the like, not material with uncleared samples - the latter has no effect on the retailers whatsoever.

that's it, almost every shop sells stuff with uncleared samples but HMV always seems to stock dodgy re-pressings and the like which other big shops don't - I remember Brian of MVE being ultra careful about not selling bootlegs, even in a secondhand shop - guess those flat rate fines would have hit him hard

simon silverdollar
18-03-2005, 09:31 AM
i was talking to jammer the other day (no i was, honestly, in a williamsburg cafe where he looked kinda uncomfortable) and he said there was only about 4 grime pirates -- and way more other ones. the other ones he said, had better broadcast radiuses, better rigs, cos they were more established and had older experienced people running them -- anybody know if this is true? he's probably got an East-centric viewpoint though




yeah that's true- there's still loads of 4/4 and old skool garage on the pirates. there's obviously still a big audience for it. the only pirates i can pick up who predominantly play grime are raw uk and On top. i guess the biggest pirate, rinse, plays a lot of grime, but it has a fair number of ukg + drum n bass + dubstep shows as well.

having said all this, tho, i live in south west, and can't pick up some of the pirates that people say play a lot of grime, like crews control and heat.

but really, there's a lot of grime being played out there, and there's a huge number of crews and DJs with regular slots, so it's not like there's this feeling of 'aww, only 4 stations?' for me, at least.

probably the most common stuff you hear on pirate radio, though, is dancehall, hip hop and r n b.

a station near me plays really odd portugese folk music.

Tactics
18-03-2005, 12:41 PM
a quick plug - simon if you listen to On Top listen out for 4N Format. BreakBeat Productions, my peoples affiliate DJ, DJ Gummer, plays with them and he plays a lot of our stuff esp. Nii-O's. Keep an ear out and tell me what you think!!

Grievous Angel
18-03-2005, 12:42 PM
http://www.uk-dance.org/knowledge/music_making/000066.html

couple of suggestions of pressing plants in Europe.