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tyranny
19-03-2010, 12:59 PM
Gays blamed for Srebrenica defeat


Dutch government officials reacted angrily today to claims by a retired US general that Dutch forces were overrun in Srebrenica in 1995 in part because of the presence of gay soldiers.

At a US congressional hearing yesterday on allowing gay soldiers to serve openly in the military, former Supreme Allied commander John Sheehan said there was a link between having homosexuals in the Dutch forces and the massacre at Srebrenica.

Bosnian Serb forces overran lightly-armed Dutch soldiers in the United Nations-designated enclave of Srebrenica in July 1995 and subsequently massacred more than 7,000 Muslim men and boys.

Reports on the hearing said Mr Sheehan blamed a post-Cold War effort by European nations to "socialise" their forces by, among other things, letting gays serve.

"That led to a force that was ill-equipped to go to war. The case in point that I'm referring to is when the Dutch were required to defend Srebrenica against the Serbs," Mr Sheehan said.

"The battalion was under-strength, poorly led, and the Serbs came into town, handcuffed the soldiers to the telephone poles, marched the Muslims off, and executed them."

Carl Levin, chairman of the US Senate's Armed Services Committee, asked: "Did the Dutch leaders tell you it was because there were gay soldiers there?"

"Yes, they did. They included that as part of the problem," Mr Sheehan said, according to a webcast on the website of the Senate Armed Services Committee.

The Dutch Defence Ministry issued a statement calling Mr Sheehan's claims "absolute nonsense" and adding that gay Dutch soldiers routinely co-operate with the US military in the Nato mission in Afghanistan.

Renee Jones-Bos, the Dutch ambassador to the United States, said in a statement, "I couldn't disagree more" with Mr Sheehan, adding there was no evidence of his claims in the extensive record of research on Srebrenica.

Dutch press agency ANP quoted the head of the military union AFMP, Wim van den Burg, as saying Sheehan's comments were "ridiculous" and "out of the realm of fiction".

The events in Srebrenica remain a sensitive subject in The Netherlands, where a six-year investigation into the massacre led to the government's fall in 2002.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0319/breaking29.html


Just..... Wow.

:mad:

vimothy
19-03-2010, 01:06 PM
Oh come one, you've got to laugh at that--it's a hairs breadth away from "attracts enemy radar":


Homosexuals can't swim, they attract enemy radar, they attract sharks, they nudge people when they're trying to shoot, they always insist on sitting at "The Captain's Table"... they *muck about*. Imagine... the fear... when you go to sleep with a gay man on board and think "Oh God, when I wake up, will everyone be dead?" You can't run a ship like that.

tyranny
19-03-2010, 03:21 PM
Oh and laugh at it I did, especially given how spectacularly ill-timed it was given that the Dutch government has just collapsed over the fallout of their involvement with the Afghan adventure and their political support of the Iraq invasion - not to mention the fact that the Srebrenica enquiry back in 2002 also caused a Dutch government to collapse.

Never cease to be amazed at the sort of person who seems to be able to make the grade and become a high ranking General in the US high command though - they've had some proper old crackpots over the years...

scottdisco
19-03-2010, 03:29 PM
i blame the Bosnian Serb and federal Yugoslav governments myself.

crackerjack
19-03-2010, 03:40 PM
When I saw this headlined on the Times I assumed it was some idiotic throwaway comment. Turns out it was evidence to the Senate committee on gays in the military, so although it's still idiotic, he actually thought this through beforehand. This bloke, Major Hasan, where do the US military get their right-wing morons ;)?

tyranny
19-03-2010, 03:57 PM
i blame the Bosnian Serb and federal Yugoslav governments myself.


Were they gay as well?

scottdisco
19-03-2010, 04:06 PM
Were they gay as well?

secretly Jewish too.

scottdisco
19-03-2010, 04:15 PM
to treat tyranny's thread w the seriousness it deserves, does anyone know how likely Obama is to able to repeal 'don't ask, don't tell'?

(i know he rightly regards it as an anachronism.)

does anecdotal evidence (obv there's no other kind, i assume) suggest most serving US soldiers tend to back it?
are ambivalent?
think it should be dropped? etc.

given this loon's prior superiority one can only assume his words will carry a degree of weight.

tyranny
19-03-2010, 04:27 PM
to treat tyranny's thread w the seriousness it deserves, does anyone know how likely Obama is to able to repeal 'don't ask, don't tell'?

(i know he rightly regards it as an anachronism.)

does anecdotal evidence (obv there's no other kind, i assume) suggest most serving US soldiers tend to back it?
are ambivalent?
think it should be dropped? etc.

given this loon's prior superiority one can only assume his words will carry a degree of weight.



Well I do know the gay soldiers who were arrested yesterday after the protest in front of the White House are still in custody...

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2010/03/19/gay-soldiers-remain-in-custody-after-white-house-stunt/

tyranny
19-03-2010, 04:31 PM
His wiki entry gives a bit more context on the rest of his statements to the Senate hearings.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_J._Sheehan


In 2010 he testified under oath to the US Congress that according to the chief of staff of the Dutch army at the time of the incident, the fall of Srebrenica was caused by lack of readiness related to the Dutch allowing openly homosexual men to serve in the military together with unionization and a decision to take a peace dividend because the Soviet threat was gone. During the same testimony, Sheehan stated that sexual attraction between servicemembers of the same sex would have a negative impact on readiness, while attraction between men and women in gender-integrated units would not.[1][2][3] Dutch Minister of Defense van Middelkoop, member of parliament at the time of the 1995 incident, stated that Sheehan's statement was "disgraceful," "unworthy of anyone in the military,". [4]General van den Breemen, Dutch chief of staff at the time of the Srebrenica genocide, called Sheehan's comments "total nonsense" and denied Sheehan's claim he himself would have suggested to Sheehan that having gays in the army has played a role in the Srebrenica massacre.[5] Prime-Minister Balkenende of the Netherlands stated during a press conference that Sheehan's words are "shameful", "unthinkable" and "beneath anything".[6]

padraig (u.s.)
20-03-2010, 04:31 AM
wonderful, wonderful. best thing since hearing the endless string of old white Senators accuse Sonia Sotomayor of being a racist, while failing spectacularly to pronounce her name.

I would note that not all military leaders here are so out of touch with reality. Mullen & Gates both came out in favor of repealing the insanity that is DADT. This dude Sheehan is retired, i.e. a lot freer to spout crazy nonsense. it's a bit of a rear-guard action, anyway, as DADT is going to get repealed sooner rather than later. pretty appalling to hear if you're Dutch tho, especially if you happen to have been one of those gay Dutch soldiers at Srebrenica.


"attracts enemy radar":

I didn't know that but it certainly explains why the Japanese had such great success in sinking all those gay battleships during World War II.

Mr. Tea
20-03-2010, 09:52 AM
Well the pink-n-purple camo patterns are a dead giveaway, let's face it.

craner
20-03-2010, 10:05 PM
Are Dutch generals trying to cover the fact that they were pro-Serb?

tyranny
22-03-2010, 04:17 PM
Are Dutch generals trying to cover the fact that they were pro-Serb?


http://www.johannhari.com/2004/06/24/the-strange-unexplored-overlap-between-homosexuality-and-fascism

^ This old Johann Hari article might put a cat amongst the pigeons

:eek:

crackerjack
22-03-2010, 05:32 PM
http://www.johannhari.com/2004/06/24/the-strange-unexplored-overlap-between-homosexuality-and-fascism

^ This old Johann Hari article might put a cat amongst the pigeons

:eek:

gaystapo, queer as folk...gag-a-minute stuff

cheers for this, great article - no idea Rohm was quite so blatant about his sexuality


Rohm often referred to the ancient Greek tradition of sending gay solider couples into battle, because they were believed to be the most ferocious fighters. The famous pass of Thermopylae, for example was held by 300 soldiers – who consisted of 150 gay couples.

can't believe they cut that out of the movie

padraig (u.s.)
22-03-2010, 08:05 PM
can't believe they cut that out of the movie

that's b/c it's not actually true. read down to the bottom. Hari confused the Spartans at Thermopylae with the Sacred Band of Thebes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_Band_of_Thebes), a military unit b/c of a hundred years later which was composed of homosexual couples. the Spartans at Thermopylae may have had gay lovers but most of them were full citizens and thus likely married to women. that's not to say 300 didn't "straightwash" the Spartans, b/c it did, very much so. that ridiculous line where the king mocks the Athenians for being "boylovers", when the Spartans were if anything moreserious about their boyloving, in general. plus treating the Persian king as a like evil transsexual. all combined with the over-the-top homoeroticism. all of that stuff is from the original graphic novel by Frank Miller, who isn't exactly known for having progressive stances on gender & sexuality issues.

I though the column generally - while making a good point - was kinda swag. not only the mixup about the Spartans, but also all the parts about skinheads, as if all skinheads were fascists, or gay skinheads were fascists. I think Bruce LaBruce might have something to say about that.

craner
22-03-2010, 09:46 PM
One minor point, Pim Fortuyn wasn't actually a "fascist".

craner
22-03-2010, 09:52 PM
The rest is accurate, and big + points for quoting that master of Nazi historiography, Joachim Fest. Proves Hari is reading good books.

craner
22-03-2010, 10:01 PM
On fascism and homosexuality, I urge you to read this masterpiece (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Fascist-Revolution-Toward-General-Fascism/dp/0865274355/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1269294859&sr=1-2) and this too (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Image-Man-Creation-Masculinity-Sexuality/dp/0195126602/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1269294938&sr=1-2).

George L. Mosse was an openly gay, Jewish academic exile from Germany who ended up at the Uni of Winsconsin and wrote some of the most profound books on Nazi and Fascist ideology ever written, eschewing right and left perspectives and mining archive material, like his mentor and associate, Renzo de Felice. Both these guys have been erased from intellectual history (outside of Italy) but their books are quite essential, I think, in tracing and analysing the bizarre meld of ideas and prejudice that led to fascism, Nazism, and their ultimate failure.

craner
23-03-2010, 09:23 PM
The absurd Mussolini (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lICQ1fZTM4o)

Silly and vicious regime.

Anyone seen The Conformist?

crackerjack
23-03-2010, 09:32 PM
Anyone seen The Conformist?

si

craner
23-03-2010, 09:34 PM
Great film, right?

crackerjack
23-03-2010, 09:45 PM
Great film, right?

right

i've enjoyed this conversation - it's good to cut through the verbiage

craner
23-03-2010, 09:48 PM
Outside! Now!

baboon2004
23-03-2010, 10:35 PM
http://www.e-z.net/wtv/v-icht-4.htm

Er...

padraig (u.s.)
24-03-2010, 02:13 PM
http://www.e-z.net/wtv/v-icht-4.htm

Er...

clearly - well, I hope - no one's meant to take that seriously, but just to be sure, The Pink Swastika is absolutely not a work of scholarship. it's just an anti-gay diatribe by a couple of Evangelical jerkoffs. here's a link (http://www.defendthefamily.com/) to the other author's ministry, "Defend the family" & "natural values" & so on. you can even buy a pamphlet on how to defeat the "gay argument".

Mr. Tea
24-03-2010, 04:13 PM
...but Ollie: how did you come to be so interested in the history of fascism/national socialism? Not that it isn't an inherently fascinating subject in its own right, of course, with plenty of morbid-curiosity value to (jack)boot - just wondering how you got so into it, is all. You seem to know a hell of a lot about it.

Edit: actually not that far off-topic, as from what I understand from Milosevic's Serbia its politics was more or less national-socialist in all but name.

tyranny
31-03-2010, 04:57 PM
http://www.e-z.net/wtv/v-icht-4.htm

Er...




Oh boy, where to even BEGIN

:eek:


One thing that always appalled me was the fate of the homosexual prisoners after the war and how they were made to serve out their full sentences by the allied liberators.

IdleRich
31-03-2010, 08:11 PM
Oh boy, where to even BEGIN.
How about with this bit


Variables: NUMBER WHO DIED IN THE CAMPS..... Jews: As many as 6 million. Homosexuals: Probably less than 6,000.
Should be fewer than 6,000 as homosexuals are measured discretely.

IdleRich
31-03-2010, 08:14 PM
clearly - well, I hope - no one's meant to take that seriously, but just to be sure, The Pink Swastika is absolutely not a work of scholarship. it's just an anti-gay diatribe by a couple of Evangelical jerkoffs. here's a link to the other author's ministry, "Defend the family" & "natural values" & so on. you can even buy a pamphlet on how to defeat the "gay argument".
Nice. Giving it away would be bad enough but charging for it really takes the piss.

mistersloane
31-03-2010, 10:03 PM
Dunno where else to put this at the moment, but Cameron totally gets owned by Popplewell here, it's revealing I think :

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/mar/24/david-cameron-stumbles-gay-rights#start-of-comments

crackerjack
31-03-2010, 10:25 PM
Dunno where else to put this at the moment, but Cameron totally gets owned by Popplewell here, it's revealing I think :

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/mar/24/david-cameron-stumbles-gay-rights#start-of-comments

wow, he fluffs it, he's trying a boris imitation there.

anyone else noticed how often he and osbourne take a sip of water when asked questions they're not too sure about?

god, what an ending! "can we stop cos i want to answer your question, but i'm not sure how and you've got the camera on and it's not fair" - can you imagine the flak if that was brown?

on reflection, that's not boris it's him (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5jr33wiVZQ)

crackerjack
31-03-2010, 11:07 PM
Cam was probably scared of what Norman might say

http://liberalconspiracy.org/2010/03/30/tebbit-cameron-too-busy-saving-african-homosexuals/