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Diaz
17-03-2005, 12:04 PM
I'm a big big fan of what i think of as hardcore of the techno/rave strain but it's different from a lot of non-americans think of as hardcore (esp. Brits)...dumb speedcore and cheesy deathcore (stuff like tron or delta nine or australia's mark n or los angeles' own ron d core). stuff really appeals to the dumbass stoner d&d/skater boy in me, i guess. Anywayz does this have a place in anyone else's curriculum? does anyone else think bruce lee sampled into breakbeats is Flawless Victory, or what?

Pearsall
17-03-2005, 02:58 PM
You mean like the Deathchant stuff?

Diaz
18-03-2005, 12:13 AM
You mean like the Deathchant stuff?
yeah deathchant included - hellfish and producer were on the first cd of electronic music i ever bought, ron d core's medical mayhem.

they used to do a lot of stuff out here in l.a., i'd see them flyered up for the big events back in the day when they had hardcore rooms.

kingofcars
18-03-2005, 01:44 AM
there was a pretty big scene for hardcore/gabber here in the states from say...96/97 til about 00/01.
ron d core in la, deadly systems in colorado, drop bass and later addict/distort in the milwaukee area, industrial strength in ny... probably some other scenes, too...
near as i can tell, as the marginal rave scene in the states (further) collapsed, a lot of these producers turned to other genres - idm, techno, hip hop, breakcore, ebm, etc. i know delta nine put a record out on drop bass last year, which was more or less old school midwest hardcore, but there really doesn't appear to be much in that vein being made at all now (outside of some french stuff and the deathchant scene, bloody fist is still somewhat active, i guess...)

as far as that being part of a continuum - it's easy enough to trace its roots (dutch gabber, metal, videogames), but i'm not entirely sure where the music goes after that. the planet mu take on it, hybridizing dnb, hardcore, and idm seemed to be the last real gasp there, and that stuff has been dead for 2-3 years anyway, yeah?
maybe im bein cynical...


...of course, i LOVE the stuff! ;)

dubplatestyle
18-03-2005, 02:02 AM
does the scud/praxis stuff fit in here too somewhere? (though i remember scud saying he cleared the floor of a lot of speedcore gigs he played.)

i love this stuff too. "real" gabba can get pretty draining after about 15 minutes, and no one really plays the "atmospheric" stuff. but this stuff is pretty good at maintaining interest.

ripley
18-03-2005, 02:36 AM
Oh man, Hellfish & Producer. genius! I'm no expert by any means, but I love how the H&P tracks keep changing, new samples, new beats, always ridiculous but not the same for too long.

kingofcars
18-03-2005, 02:46 AM
does the scud/praxis stuff fit in here too somewhere? (though i remember scud saying he cleared the floor of a lot of speedcore gigs he played.)

i love this stuff too. "real" gabba can get pretty draining after about 15 minutes, and no one really plays the "atmospheric" stuff. but this stuff is pretty good at maintaining interest.


the ambush/praxis contingent is something of a separate, but affiliated branch, imo.
some of the first real speedcore/deathcore releases are arguably the disciples of belial records on praxis (circa 94/95).... praxis didn't really stick with that sound obviously (and fortunately)... and some of scud's first releases are pretty speedcore oriented (check the awesome 12" he did as rude boy on kool.pop).
additionally, there were a lot of shared distribution networks for fringe speedcore, breakcore, and similarly uh...maligned genres in the late 90's.

the simple "shock" agenda of a lot of this stuff (i mean dj tron, late 90's industrial strength, kotzaak, bloody fist, etc) is what really separates it from the more complicated politics of scud, fringelli, hecate, and company - who, even on a fairly surface level, confront a lot of race/class/gender issues (and in a much more intelligent and tasteful way than DHR ever really managed to)...

Pearsall
18-03-2005, 03:57 AM
Yeah, Hellfish & Producer are geniuses.

J-j-j-ack the ripper, King Hercules, Professor of Death and the Seven Seas (sic) bwowbwowbwowbwowbwow

minikomi
18-03-2005, 04:04 AM
bloody fist is no more... system corrupt and black lotus appear to be taking up the reins in oz, albeit a little tentatively.

Pearsall
18-03-2005, 04:25 AM
Lenny Dee's gone back to playing straight-up techno as well.

When I lived in Edinburgh I used to go to those sort of events occassionally. Fun (especially watching all the neds on whizz go all blurry dancing).

hamarplazt
18-03-2005, 08:48 AM
bloody fist is no more...
They had just celebrated their ten year birthday, and then pulled the plug. A shame, as it was one of the most consistent labels in that scene. Mark Ns Overcast-album, 3:PM Eternal, was a brilliant way to end things from him - heavy, groovy hip hop-cut up-influenced doom electro. Or something. Quite far from the speedcore mayhem most people expect from Bloody Fist.

hamarplazt
18-03-2005, 08:58 AM
near as i can tell, as the marginal rave scene in the states (further) collapsed, a lot of these producers turned to other genres - idm, techno, hip hop, breakcore, ebm, etc. i know delta nine put a record out on drop bass last year, which was more or less old school midwest hardcore, but there really doesn't appear to be much in that vein being made at all now (outside of some french stuff and the deathchant scene, bloody fist is still somewhat active, i guess...)

There's a die hard following in Germany too, as far as I've heard. And probably other places as well. Sound Base has a lot of new stuff in this vein still: www.sbm-online.de

Anyway, I used to be really into it, always searching for the fastest, noisiest, most brutal record yet made. A dead end, obviously, but somehow fun while it lasted. I still listen to some of it, but not often the really "stupid" stuff any more. The Fischkopf label remains my all time favorite in this field, but they had a much more experimental approach. Real avant gabber. Anyone should listen to Poka Michelsons No Name-records on Fischkopf and get blown away. They're as strange and scary and far out as any old musique concrete, but at the same time with a heavy physical impact.

Diaz
18-03-2005, 05:25 PM
Mark N hated playing in Los Angeles. He was at the 3rd rave I ever went to, one of them big sellout massives, I think it was Oracle 2, and people -his fans, ostensibly- threw beer bottles at him. ...first time i ever heard music live that scared, thrilled and made me want to do anything other than pretend to be a rock star. He played this adorable little toon with a speak 'n' spell...and was saying i believe 'fuck la' with it.



king of cars, it's not entirely dead- doormouse, fr'instance, is doing a lot of releases, though he's now out of miami and has a baby girl! and L.A.'s own Baseck and Minion and the related darkmattersoundsystem are doing some wicked wicked parties and productions. there's the mashup sound-system too, who've done some neat things. they're in europe somewhere right now. www.neomod.com is a decent distributor of a lot of this stuff, i believe dr freecloud's is opening a new store and though they are focusing more on breaks and house and such I believe they still stock hardcore, and

the hardcore/breakcore/speedcore stuff is doing a lot of cross over to the idm/noise kids, but it makes sense that a lot of the kids who first turned on to idm and laptop glitchy stuff here in socal were coming out of that lunatic *core scene and chilled out and got jobs or whatever. philadelphia supposedly has some good stuff going, and i hear the midwest still rocks it, although it's not not 220 bpm breakbeats and DMT anymore- but what is these days?

kingofcars
18-03-2005, 06:33 PM
The Fischkopf label remains my all time favorite in this field, but they had a much more experimental approach. Real avant gabber. Anyone should listen to Poka Michelsons No Name-records on Fischkopf and get blown away. They're as strange and scary and far out as any old musique concrete, but at the same time with a heavy physical impact.


fischkopf is indeed a fabulous label! amiga shock force, burning lazy persons, taciturne - they're all brilliant.
don't overlook stella michelson's work, either (poka's sister). she recorded as auto-psy and mouse, and also released a few records on fischkopf (as wel as on anticore, reverse, and probably some others)

there's a lot of similar french speedcore and broken electronics. check the hangar's liquides label and cavage records for equally bonkers, lysergic material.

kingofcars
18-03-2005, 06:51 PM
the hardcore/breakcore/speedcore stuff is doing a lot of cross over to the idm/noise kids, but it makes sense that a lot of the kids who first turned on to idm and laptop glitchy stuff here in socal were coming out of that lunatic *core scene and chilled out and got jobs or whatever. philadelphia supposedly has some good stuff going, and i hear the midwest still rocks it, although it's not not 220 bpm breakbeats and DMT anymore- but what is these days?


it's good to hear that there are still factions producing that kind of music. doormouse, especially, appears to have achieved a modest amount of fame and respect - which he certainly always deserved. i think its sort of a shame that the scene so decidedly cross-bred with the idm/noise scene, tho - it moves the music one step further away from the dancefloor.

hamarplazt
18-03-2005, 07:48 PM
fischkopf is indeed a fabulous label! amiga shock force, burning lazy persons, taciturne - they're all brilliant.
Don't forget Eradicator ( = E-de Cologne = Patric Catani = Candie Hank).



don't overlook stella michelson's work, either (poka's sister). she recorded as auto-psy and mouse, and also released a few records on fischkopf (as wel as on anticore, reverse, and probably some others)

Stella is great too, but I've never been quite as amazed by her stuff, probably because she's so straightforwardly punishing, where Poka is polymorpheus and psychedelic. The Mouse EP on Homicide from last year, though, is really really great... almost cosmic in a very cold and scary way.



there's a lot of similar french speedcore and broken electronics. check the hangar's liquides label and cavage records for equally bonkers, lysergic material.
Don't know if I'd call Cavage similar... it's usually much more breakcore than anything Fischkopf ever made... sometimes even with rap on it. But certainly brilliant. Hangars Liquides is the obvious heir to Fischkopf. If only their stuff wasn't so hard to track down.

kingofcars
18-03-2005, 08:26 PM
Don't forget Eradicator ( = E-de Cologne = Patric Catani = Candie Hank).


Stella is great too, but I've never been quite as amazed by her stuff, probably because she's so straightforwardly punishing, where Poka is polymorpheus and psychedelic. The Mouse EP on Homicide from last year, though, is really really great... almost cosmic in a very cold and scary way.


Don't know if I'd call Cavage similar... it's usually much more breakcore than anything Fischkopf ever made... sometimes even with rap on it. But certainly brilliant. Hangars Liquides is the obvious heir to Fischkopf. If only their stuff wasn't so hard to track down.


oh, i wouldn't want to over look eradicator! 'fucking bitch called walker' ;)

i missed the recent mouse record. the last one i picked up was on reverse, and it came out maybe 01/02... i agree, poka is the superior producer.... it's shocking they aren't better known or more respected.
is hangars liquides defunct now? the attila 12" they put out a few years ago still gets a lot of play from me... so fucking weird!
i think i used to get my hangars liquides records from either history of the future or from doormouse's msasive record source...i don't know where you woudl find that stuff now...

i've only got the first 5 or so releases on cavage, and they aren't too break heavy - more freaked out psychedelic electronics, some noise, some hardcore. not all that fischkopf-esque, but definitely possessing some of the same acid-damaged sensibilities as the michelson sisters....
i remember reading interviews with uht/saoulaterre years ago, where they talkd about the parties they were throwing in catacombs. their goal with these parties was to summon the rats from the sewers to take over the streets!!!!

hamarplazt
18-03-2005, 08:50 PM
i missed the recent mouse record. the last one i picked up was on reverse, and it came out maybe 01/02... i agree, poka is the superior producer.... it's shocking they aren't better known or more respected.
is hangars liquides defunct now? the attila 12" they put out a few years ago still gets a lot of play from me... so fucking weird!
Damn, I've not heard that one...

Well, anyway, the last they did, at least as far as I've heard, was releasing a CD/DVD-concept-art-project kind of thing by La Peste called WTCXTC. Much more experimental electronica/glitch/classic avant garde stuff than hardcore. La Peste's a big Xenakis fan.



i've only got the first 5 or so releases on cavage, and they aren't too break heavy - more freaked out psychedelic electronics, some noise, some hardcore.
Ah, that explains it, I've mostly heard the newer ones. In particular Cavage08 and 09 is where I really think they're peaking. There's also the related label called Night on Earth, in particalar the compilation Night on Earth #2 is worth tracking down. More moody, downtempo stuff. Some of it actually really, really beautiful.

kingofcars
18-03-2005, 10:55 PM
Damn, I've not heard that one...

Well, anyway, the last they did, at least as far as I've heard, was releasing a CD/DVD-concept-art-project kind of thing by La Peste called WTCXTC. Much more experimental electronica/glitch/classic avant garde stuff than hardcore. La Peste's a big Xenakis fan.


Ah, that explains it, I've mostly heard the newer ones. In particular Cavage08 and 09 is where I really think they're peaking. There's also the related label called Night on Earth, in particalar the compilation Night on Earth #2 is worth tracking down. More moody, downtempo stuff. Some of it actually really, really beautiful.


i i have wtcxtc on mp3 somewhere...it's good, yeah, but i prefer the older stuff, i think...

i checked over at www.c8.com for the night on earth mp3's....giving no 2 a listen right now... it's great! maybe not quite as head-scratchingly brilliant as the early cavage stuff, imo, but way better than anything being put out in the idm world. i'm gonna go digging through the crates tonight looking for old uht/saoulaterre 12"s....


btw - what kind of scene is the weirder french stuff being played at now? is there still any sort of free teknival movement that supports this kind of stuff? does cavage still do catacomb parties? or is it all the province of music nerds and rave-casualties?
i know people like manu le malin, radium, epiteth records, and that kind of harder straightforward french stuff still gets play at gabber oriented events... but where would one go to hear the new mouse 12", for instance?

hamarplazt
19-03-2005, 10:03 AM
btw - what kind of scene is the weirder french stuff being played at now? is there still any sort of free teknival movement that supports this kind of stuff? does cavage still do catacomb parties? or is it all the province of music nerds and rave-casualties?
i know people like manu le malin, radium, epiteth records, and that kind of harder straightforward french stuff still gets play at gabber oriented events... but where would one go to hear the new mouse 12", for instance?
I actually always thought that the free teknivals was playing the straightforward "hardtek"-stuff rather than the weirdness. Don't know how big the catacomb parties actually were... maybe that was music nerds too... Some activity definitely still going on though, it seems Stella Michelson and La Peste are playing some joint gigs now and then.

As for uht/saoulaterre, the newest Cavage that I've heard (#12) is a straight saoulaterre/DXMedia collaboration, and really great... almost electro-ish in a way. The only early cavage I've heard is #03... how's that compared with the other ones from that period?

Diaz
19-03-2005, 11:14 AM
I actually always thought that the free teknivals was playing the straightforward "hardtek"-stuff rather than the weirdness. Don't know how big the catacomb parties actually were... maybe that was music nerds too... Some activity definitely still going on though, it seems Stella Michelson and La Peste are playing some joint gigs now and then.


last i heard about the teknival stuff was they threw a couple of big profile parties that really didn't end up as planned and it soured a lot of peeps. that could all be nonsense for what i know, but it seems likely as anything - esp. with reports i'd heard about their parties getting busted, or at least uncovered, like that one at the mental asylum south of paris. anybody else have a better clue on that track?

FWIW, there was a pretty packed ...house, for lack of a better phrase ( it was in an old meat locker! so nice!) for doormouse's last l.a. show and it wasn't advertised much; a few posts on slsk, some email notes a few days before and word of mouth mostly. but the kids seemed into it. like the days of yore, there were cholos and punks bumping into each other and not minding, and i saw some very drunk, very circular (his measurements were almost limited to r,d and pi you know?) and very mohawked guy waving two dollars at the water table going "I HAVE TWO DOLLARS CAN I GET SOME BREAKCORE?!??!" and getting a loud 'HELL YEAH" response from everyone in ear shot.

maybe it was dumb but man, that made my night.

omg also thanks for dropping names y'all my curiosity is almost as chronic as my verbosity. *scurries off in search of more beatage*

kingofcars
20-03-2005, 12:27 AM
FWIW, there was a pretty packed ...house, for lack of a better phrase ( it was in an old meat locker! so nice!) for doormouse's last l.a. show and it wasn't advertised much; a few posts on slsk, some email notes a few days before and word of mouth mostly. but the kids seemed into it. like the days of yore, there were cholos and punks bumping into each other and not minding, and i saw some very drunk, very circular (his measurements were almost limited to r,d and pi you know?) and very mohawked guy waving two dollars at the water table going "I HAVE TWO DOLLARS CAN I GET SOME BREAKCORE?!??!" and getting a loud 'HELL YEAH" response from everyone in ear shot.
*

ha! that sounds great!

regarding the weird french stuff: http://c8.com/c8/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4143
so i guess stuff in that vein is definitely still hapening.


i, too, would love to hear more regarding the current teknival scene. anyone w/ any info?

Diaz
20-03-2005, 01:22 AM
Val and Xanopticon might be there too.

oh neat, xanopticon's pretty decent.

http://www.freetekno.fr/ is back up! OMG THE UNDERGROUND IS BACK


these guys are damn inspirational. parties in morgues, cellars, hospitals...

anyone up for a trip to france? it's less commitment for you brits but i'll do it if we can all cram into a 'bus' and i can smoke indoors.

originaldrum
20-03-2005, 05:39 AM
They had just celebrated their ten year birthday, and then pulled the plug. A shame, as it was one of the most consistent labels in that scene. Mark Ns Overcast-album, 3:PM Eternal, was a brilliant way to end things from him - heavy, groovy hip hop-cut up-influenced doom electro. Or something. Quite far from the speedcore mayhem most people expect from Bloody Fist.


did you know that mark n won the oz dmc's once, time ago --- also, does the bezerker from australia fit in here somewhere?

Diaz
20-03-2005, 11:30 AM
did you know that mark n won the oz dmc's once, time ago --- also, does the bezerker from australia fit in here somewhere?


berzerker is triply awesome because a) los angles hardcore loves him b) aussie hardcore loves him and c) los angeles skaters who don't know hardcore but seem to like it anyways loves him.

that is in a funny way the total victory for me- when someone who has totally no cool agenda at all loves something that i ( practically minister of cool agendas) love too.

hamarplazt
20-03-2005, 11:33 AM
did you know that mark n won the oz dmc's once, time ago --- also, does the bezerker from australia fit in here somewhere?
Well, I don't know what oz dmc is, but I know he once won some kind of DJ/mixing/scratching contest... is that it?

Not really sure about bezerker, don't think I've heard him... but there's lots of hard/speed/noise/break/acid-core in Australia - the Hardliner label, System Corrupt, Null Object, Rage Reset etc...

kingofcars
20-03-2005, 09:41 PM
berzerker is big on the speedcore/metal crossover scene. did that speedcore anthem that sampled the 'my love for you is like a truck BERZERKER' bit from clerks.
i think he had a release on earache, maybe???

most of the rest of the aussie hardcore scene is more interested in hip hop, dnb, old school, or acid than they are in metal. i'd say the berzerker is more in line w/ german or u.s. acts, who get a kick out of grunty deathmetal vocals and slayer samples ;)
xtreme, dude!



@ diaz - thanks for linking to freetekno.fr!

minikomi
20-03-2005, 10:45 PM
haha you might think so... except that about a month back there was a huge show where all the top boys of breakcore played with the top boys of grindcore! check it out here for photos etc:

http://breakcore.info/forum/viewtopic.php?t=745

i think someone got a recording.. i hope so! i wasnt able to attend, being in adelaide and all.

subvert47
20-07-2006, 10:29 AM
Stella is great too, but I've never been quite as amazed by her stuff, probably because she's so straightforwardly punishing, where Poka is polymorpheus and psychedelic. The Mouse EP on Homicide from last year, though, is really really great... almost cosmic in a very cold and scary way.

the Lick My Pussy EP on Underground Perversions is better still :)

wonk_vitesse
20-07-2006, 05:41 PM
you can catch Toecutter? maybe on nofixedabode (http://nofixedabode.info)
or on our podcast Ely muff (http://podcasts.resonancefm.com/archives/category/shows/redzero/)

in terms of "where did it go" you could no worse than follow da Muff!

mixed_biscuits
11-04-2008, 09:22 PM
What's the best London record shop for this stuff, O All Knowing Forum?

Am particularly keen on the mighty DJ Producer's bits.

thirdform
03-04-2019, 11:13 PM
Anyway, I used to be really into it, always searching for the fastest, noisiest, most brutal record yet made. A dead end, obviously, but somehow fun while it lasted. I still listen to some of it, but not often the really "stupid" stuff any more. The Fischkopf label remains my all time favorite in this field, but they had a much more experimental approach. Real avant gabber. Anyone should listen to Poka Michelsons No Name-records on Fischkopf and get blown away. They're as strange and scary and far out as any old musique concrete, but at the same time with a heavy physical impact.

Speaking of avant-gabba. just found this atomhead mix from 2005 on the hd. psychedelic wizzing sounds to send ur brain into a swirl at 200 bpm. like at least 10 years before that whole concepttronica axis... the french and belgians were on some mad shit in the 00s. maybe too manic for some of todays tory dissensus contingent, who knows...

https://www.dropbox.com/s/4fn10h827y5xhit/redZEROradio_-_Atomhead.mp3?dl=0

thirdform
03-04-2019, 11:24 PM
Promo mix for the upcoming event at the Black Swan, Bristol - The Evil Within. Presented by Napalm Soundsystem, covering all factions of darkside rave.
Enjoyed digging out some classic technodrome, early frenchcore, breakcore, terror, hard drum + bass and throwing it all in the pot - apologies for any brain damage caused!
Tracklist:
The DJ Producer - Research + Development (21st Century Core)
The DJ Producer - Damage By DJ (Part 1)
Matrix + Wargroover - Neutron Bomb
Micropoint - Human Freak Box
Radium - Brain Police (Part 3)
Tripped - USA Holls
Akira - Fast + Akkurad (The DJ Producer's Tortured Dynamics Edit)
Doormouse - American Honda Finance Corporation
Kontroversy396 - Limp Razor Rash
Leto Process - Violon Dingue
Duran Duran Duran - Foursome Aktion
De-Koder - Knife (1995 Original Mix)
Current Value - Brainwash (Hidden Memories)
Current Value - The Unspoken
Technical Itch - The Legend (Evol Intent Remix)
Numek - Cardiac Lesion
I:Gor - Death's Sadistic Design
Venetian Snares - Befriend A Child Killer

https://soundcloud.com/martin-poison/napalm-the-evil-within-promo-mix

Don't worry lads its not that dumb metal shit its strictly industrial badness.

thirdform
03-04-2019, 11:34 PM
Created for the Darkfloor website and Mantis Radio program, which aired the mix back in March 2014 (darkfloor.co.uk/mantisarchives/). This brings together some of our favourite rhythmic noise tracks. It moves in a rough chronological order from early innovators like Esplendor Geometrico, through the 1990s and up to the present. We've focused on artists and tracks that use elements of techno and electro, and put less emphasis on the many other excellent artists in this scene whose work is closer to dark ambient, breakcore and musique concrete.
Tracklist
Esplendor Geometrico – Trans Umma [Apocalyptic Vision, 1988]
Dive – Bloodmoney [Minus Habens, 1993]
P.A.L. – Concrete Rage [Ant Zen, 1995]
Sonar – Head Down [Daft Records, 1996]
Imminent Starvation – Lost Highway 45 [Ant Zen, 1997]
Winterkalte – Incinerator [Hands, 1997]
Synapscape – Deliverance [Ant Zen, 1997]
Hypnoskull – Rhythmusmachine Eins-Zwei [Ant Zen, 1998]
Morgenstern – Salvation [Ant Zen, 1998]
Vromb – L’objet [Ant Zen, 1999]
Orphx – Nullity v2.2 [Hands, 1998]
Huren – Tinseltown [Zhark, 1999]
Kareem – Black September [Zhark, 1999]
Somatic Responses – Ucircumflex [Hymen, 1999]
Asche – Riding on the Atomic ICE [Ant Zen, 2000]
Monolith – The Inner Core [Sleepless Records, 2011]
Roger Rotor – Maniac Monger [Ant Zen, 2012]
Converter – Flower [Ant Zen, 2000]
Mono No Aware – Worms [Hands, 2000]
Iszoloscope – The Sum of Us All [Ant Zen, 2001]
Punch Inc – Taste This [Hands, 2001]
Nullvektor – Rueckwirkung [Hands, 2011]
Cervello Elettronico – Last Words [Hands, 2013]
Geistform – Atlas [Hands, 2012]

https://soundcloud.com/orphx/darkfloor-dj-set-2014

thirdform
03-04-2019, 11:36 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NjNd79p0Kw&fbclid=IwAR2R_3FlZ3b8kG9JdqjVKbSjkvTzEC7RsQAX08pGV NfpdjzLjRS0BmYYT68

thirdform
04-04-2019, 02:04 PM
mark n - something else to bitch about 1998. https://www.dropbox.com/s/h116fy5hg44enpw/Mark%20N.%20-%20Something%20Else%20For%20You%20To%20Bitch%20Abo ut.mp3?dl=0

thirdform
05-04-2019, 08:02 PM
I answered all yer questions in this thread lads.