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routes
05-04-2010, 02:13 PM
Eugene Terre'blanche killed..... AWB spokesperson says "The death of Mr Terre'Blanche is a declaration of war by the black community of South Africa to the white community that has been killed for 10 years on end." (i realise noone gives a fuck about the AWB but this is still pretty shit......i mean, noone gives a fuck about the AWB, right? right?!)

Julius Malema, very popular leader of the ANC youth league, sings an old apartheid song about shooting boers at an ANC rally and is mouthing off at every opportunity about how SA has a long way to go until it catches up with Zimbabwe...

Zuma calls for calm...

mistersloane
05-04-2010, 02:59 PM
I think it's just colonialist media trying to prove that Africa is still the heart of darkness really, see this article from the Guardian this weekend :

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/apr/01/south-africa-world-cup-blikkiesdorp

The focus was always going to be on SA in the drive toward the World Cup, that Africa isn't 'worthy' of hosting other nations. One farmer getting killed - regardless is who he was - isn't really anything.

I realise I'm a bit biased and defensive about this though.

routes
08-04-2010, 12:06 PM
interested to know what you mean by 'colonialist media'? do you mean UK media? do you mean English-language SA media? both?

the AWB says they have signed up over 3000 new members in the last week.. :confused: De Klerk has reportedly written to Zuma asking him to get Malema to shut up or risk causing a "violent incident" but he won't/can't do anything. Malema has publicly broken with Zuma's ANC line before so...? there was nearly a riot when he spoke at Cape Town university at the end of last year...

i love the story about the government investing gazillions in a massive fleet of super-taxis for the Cape Town WC tourists but then the project mysteriously ran out of budget so they were unable to finalise the infrastructure, timetable, implement the traffic changes, recruit drivers, etc etc. the word is that a few of the local taxi companies got together and threatened to cause problems during the WC if the Super-Taxi plan went ahead... but obviously that doesn't get reported by SABC, Cape Times, etc cos they're all ANC channels...

either way, some amusing 'heart of darkness' UK headlines - "World Cup Fans Face Bloodbath", "Race War Declared In SA", "World Cup War: Machete Threat to England Fans" Juju clearly doesn't give much of a shit (http://www.timeslive.co.za/local/article392446.ece/Malema-kicks-out-BBC-journalist) tho -

"We want the mines. They have been exploiting our minerals for a long time. Now it's our turn to also enjoy from these minerals. They are so bright, they are colourful, we refer to them as white people, maybe their colour came as a result of exploiting our minerals and perhaps if some of us can get opportunities in these minerals we can develop some nice colour like them."

Mr. Tea
08-04-2010, 12:47 PM
The focus was always going to be on SA in the drive toward the World Cup, that Africa isn't 'worthy' of hosting other nations. One farmer getting killed - regardless is who he was - isn't really anything.


In fairness, wasn't one of the African teams targeted in an ambush last year, bunch of people AK'd to death...? It wasn't in SA, but pretty :eek: nonetheless.

baboon2004
08-04-2010, 12:55 PM
In fairness, wasn't one of the African teams targeted in an ambush last year, bunch of people AK'd to death...? It wasn't in SA, but pretty :eek: nonetheless.

At the ACN at the start of the year. The Togolese team were travelling through an area of eastern Angola that was a known 'rebel' stronghold, just over the border from the DRC (in the midst of a seemingly endless 'civil' war - with numbers of deaths comparable to the holocaust - that it seems in Western interests not to give two shits about due to the mineral wealth there and the possibilities of extraction amidst the chaos etc etc), that they were specifically advised not to go through. As I understand it.

The Western obsession with simultaneously raping and demonising Africa goes on...

Edit: And as Sloane says, these are just incidents that happen everywhere anyway. Did anyone consider the 2012 Olympics to be too dangerous to go to when Menezes was shot dead in cold blood at a tube station by state operatives in 2005? Etc etc.

Edit 2: Also (and I thinkt his is important) 2 people died in that incident (I think I'm correct in saying). Tragic and horrific, but not a massacre by any stretch.

crackerjack
08-04-2010, 01:28 PM
Edit: And as Sloane says, these are just incidents that happen everywhere anyway. Did anyone consider the 2012 Olympics to be too dangerous to go to when Menezes was shot dead in cold blood at a tube station by state operatives in 2005? Etc etc.

No, because regardless of de Menezes (and, you might add, the 52 murdered on 7/7), the UK's murder rate is a fraction of SA's. Last figs I can find - these are 10 years out of date, more recent can prob be found if you have the time (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita) - show it as the 2nd highest in the world.

baboon2004
08-04-2010, 01:39 PM
No, because regardless of de Menezes (and, you might add, the 52 murdered on 7/7), the UK's murder rate is a fraction of SA's. Last figs I can find - these are 10 years out of date, more recent can prob be found if you have the time (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita) - show it as the 2nd highest in the world.

That is true - prob should have worded more carefully, but was just immediatley referring to the specific incident Mr Tea referenced.

But seriously - consideration as to WHY the South African murder rate might be that high, would be worth much more than looking up further statistics. it is not a fact that exists in south Africa in isolation from the rest of the world - in fact, the rest of the world has been EXTREMELY instrumental in setting up the specific social conditions that exist in south Africa (and many other countries).

crackerjack
08-04-2010, 01:57 PM
That is true - prob should have worded more carefully, but was just immediatley referring to the specific incident Mr Tea referenced.

But seriously - consideration as to WHY the South African murder rate might be that high, would be worth much more than looking up further statistics. it is not a fact that exists in south Africa in isolation from the rest of the world - in fact, the rest of the world has been EXTREMELY instrumental in setting up the specific social conditions that exist in south Africa (and many other countries).

True, of course. But while that's certainly worth pointing out, esp to those starting down the Heart of Darkness line, it shouldn't be allowed to cloud the fact that Malema is, by almost all accounts, a dangerous racist cunt.

baboon2004
08-04-2010, 02:00 PM
True, of course. But while that's certainly worth pointing out, esp to those starting down the Heart of Darkness line, it shouldn't be allowed to cloud the fact that Malema is, by almost all accounts, a dangerous racist cunt.

Will have to read a bit about Malema, but there are dangerous, racist cunts in every society, and in most they exist near to, or in, positions of power. Just sometimes they are rather less outspoken about their beliefs.

Mr. Tea
08-04-2010, 02:03 PM
That is true - prob should have worded more carefully, but was just immediatley referring to the specific incident Mr Tea referenced.

But seriously - consideration as to WHY the South African murder rate might be that high, would be worth much more than looking up further statistics. it is not a fact that exists in south Africa in isolation from the rest of the world - in fact, the rest of the world has been EXTREMELY instrumental in setting up the specific social conditions that exist in south Africa (and many other countries).

Well yeah, I mean anyone who isn't an idiot can see this - but merely being aware of it isn't going to protect anyone there during the WC, be they black or white, player, tourist or SA citizen.

And yes, innocent people can and do get killed in any and every city, both by regular 'criminals' and agents of the state. Though as crackerjack says, there's no quantitative comparison between the murder rate in London and that in Jo'burg or Cape Town.

baboon2004
08-04-2010, 02:10 PM
Um, true - but the general historical logic of the West in this goes : grind countries into utter poverty and disorder through repeated actions (including in this case of course enabling the white minority in south Africa to seize/continue to own the economic means of power in the early 90s, while everyone went on about political power), and then blame and ostracise said countries for being quite fucked up and 'unable to stage events' (or whatever).

i mean, the only argument worth having here is a historical one. Take history out and why SA is as it is becomes incomprehensible.

Mr. Tea
08-04-2010, 02:20 PM
Um, true - but the general historical logic of the West in this goes : grind countries into utter poverty and disorder through repeated actions (including in this case of course enabling the white minority in south Africa to seize/continue to own the economic means of power in the early 90s, while everyone went on about political power), and then blame and ostracise said countries for being quite fucked up and 'unable to stage events' (or whatever).

i mean, the only argument worth having here is a historical one. Take history out and why SA is as it is becomes incomprehensible.

Sure, agreed on all counts. In the absence of a historical view, Africa as a whole just looks "inherently" violent, unstable, war-torn, poor...which is clearly nuts.

baboon2004
08-04-2010, 02:26 PM
Sure, agreed on all counts. In the absence of a historical view, Africa as a whole just looks "inherently" violent, unstable, war-torn, poor...which is clearly nuts.

i'm lucky enough to have access to a university library at the moment, so getting hold of this stuff is easier, but let's just look at google books for a second....

hmm, no luck on a preview of the book, but this one:

http://books.google.com/books?id=8xtHAAAAMAAJ&q=hoogvelt&dq=hoogvelt&cd=1

has a really interesting section (pp37-41 IIRC) on how colonialist creatin of a clientelist state (combined with divide-and-conquer strategies) ensured many African states would descend into chaos when economic times were hard.

Also Walter Rodney's book is just superbly eye-opening, and IS free on the net:

http://www.marxists.org/subject/africa/rodney-walter/how-europe/index.htm

routes
08-04-2010, 02:35 PM
'history' is exactly where this live televised debate between sleb political analyst Lebohang Pheko and Secretary General of the AWB Andre Visagie broke down.... broadcast on e.TV (http://www.etv.co.za/), they were there to “discuss race relations in South Africa in the wake of Terre’Blanche’s murder.” fast forward to about 0.30...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmMj72bQuDI

routes
08-04-2010, 02:36 PM
also.... touch me on my studio has become some kind of meme already..... WTF?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Igyivto-XY

vimothy
08-04-2010, 02:37 PM
I'm not sure about this stuff. It does seem rather circular.

crackerjack
08-04-2010, 02:44 PM
'history' is exactly where this live televised debate between sleb political analyst Lebohang Pheko and Secretary General of the AWB Andre Visagie broke down.... broadcast on e.TV (http://www.etv.co.za/), they were there to “discuss race relations in South Africa in the wake of Terre’Blanche’s murder.” fast forward to about 0.30...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmMj72bQuDI

God, poor man, no one told him the end of apartheid means blacks now have interrupting rights. Doesn't giving it the big 'I am' work any more? ;)

scottdisco
08-04-2010, 04:46 PM
we can all rightly cite chapter and verse on the legacy of colonialism (which is obviously to African history bigger than history itself, the entire 'super-fact' in many ways, far vaster than Lennon's bluesy chair), structural injustice, and how best to frame all these fundamental issues wrt the often rapacious (or at best disinterested) west, but none of this alters the achingly contemporary and relevant truths that RSA has a horrific violent crime rate, is about to host some beano in a few months, and that Malema is a dangerous racist cunt* who lives in the RSA.

* as are the AWB, of course, although they are far less influential these days, even despite their relatively recent, despicable history of active bloodshedding.

vimothy
08-04-2010, 04:50 PM
Well said.

baboon2004
08-04-2010, 04:53 PM
we can all rightly cite chapter and verse on the legacy of colonialism (which is obviously to African history bigger than history itself, the entire 'super-fact' in many ways, far vaster than Lennon's bluesy chair), structural injustice, and how best to frame all these fundamental issues wrt the often rapacious (or at best disinterested) west, but none of this alters the achingly contemporary and relevant truths that RSA has a horrific violent crime rate, is about to host some beano in a few months, and that Malema is a dangerous racist cunt* who lives in the RSA.

* as are the AWB, of course, although they are far less influential these days, even despite their relatively recent, despicable history of active bloodshedding.

But what's the conclusion that follows from the high crime stats being relevant? Some non-South African people who have chosen to visit for a sporting event are going to be in the same kind of danger (well, apart from staying in nice hotels and avoiding the 'bad areas' and stuff) as lots of people who have to deal with that every day? Should FIFA therefore not hold the WC in SA?

I can't recall much of this hysterical talk going on when the Lions fans visited SA last year, as a side point. obv it's not the World Cup, but still a major, major sporting occasion.

scottdisco
08-04-2010, 05:17 PM
But what's the conclusion that follows from the high crime stats being relevant? Some non-South African people who have chosen to visit for a sporting event are going to be in the same kind of danger (well, apart from staying in nice hotels and avoiding the 'bad areas' and stuff) as lots of people who have to deal with that every day? Should FIFA therefore not hold the WC in SA?

I can't recall much of this hysterical talk going on when the Lions fans visited SA last year, as a side point.

tbf the comparison between the fairly minor - when you brass tack it - sport of rugby, and the most popular spectator sport on the planet by a veldt mile, w the attendant large differences in incoming spectators, cachet, etc is a fairly big leap.

tbc, i'll just re-clarify, we're all on the same 'side' here (i think Sloane and Baboon know that of me for sure via private chat!), i am just pointing out the obvious. (as we all are, although not obvious enough for much of our traditional media.)

the Terreblanche murder has re-ignited media stupidity and lack of proportion for sure on this issue. (in the same way - and here i am not making this up - my beloved Daily Express * had a few days once covering Sudan in quite a bit of depth following that whole English teacher teddy bear incident. the next week i gratefully anticipated coverage of the CPA, an upsurge in communal violence in the south, al-Bashir's indictment and so on. alas, not. they had moved back to Diana.)

if that slaying had occurred prior to previous Rainbow Nation-hosted world rugby or cricket tournaments, i'm sure we would have got more of it then in the red tops (and some of the 'quality' papers).

we'll get a lot more of this obviously, alas, and i may flatter myself by including me with the rest of you, but everyone on this thread has a brain, which is not the case for ignorants in the pub mouthing off about violent Africans (as if the continent arrived fully formed in its present condition w no relations w other parts of the world prior to now) :cool:

* longtime somedisco readers know i am not a fan

mistersloane
09-04-2010, 12:32 AM
interested to know what you mean by 'colonialist media'? do you mean UK media? do you mean English-language SA media? both?

Juju clearly doesn't give much of a shit (http://www.timeslive.co.za/local/article392446.ece/Malema-kicks-out-BBC-journalist) tho -

"We want the mines. They have been exploiting our minerals for a long time. Now it's our turn to also enjoy from these minerals. They are so bright, they are colourful, we refer to them as white people, maybe their colour came as a result of exploiting our minerals and perhaps if some of us can get opportunities in these minerals we can develop some nice colour like them."

I was specifically riled by that Guardian piece; you take a whole bunch of homeless people, house them, and then get criticised for it by the English media. It's just not what anyone needs, and not what I expect from the Guardian; I found it pernicious at best and I'd personally like to see that journalist taken off their payroll, I thought it was a deeply offensive, hyper-critical article.

W/regard to Juju, I mean SA has always had a particularly radical youth faction; I personally wouldn't want to see it any other way. Vimothy's right though, talking about it does just go round in circles.

scottdisco
09-04-2010, 01:01 AM
I was specifically riled by that Guardian piece; you take a whole bunch of homeless people, house them, and then get criticised for it by the English media. It's just not what anyone needs, and not what I expect from the Guardian; I found it pernicious at best and I'd personally like to see that journalist taken off their payroll, I thought it was a deeply offensive, hyper-critical article.

W/regard to Juju, I mean SA has always had a particularly radical youth faction; I personally wouldn't want to see it any other way. Vimothy's right though, talking about it does just go round in circles.

i'm pretty sure the Guardian will have criticised the limited pace of improvements in Afghan life (of course not as fast as anyone would like, but they are there) since the Taliban were removed to give just one other example; sometimes there is a real moon-on-a-stick vibe i get from them.

despite slagging off Juju earlier, i liked this bit


Malema said..."When you are in my house you must behave,"

it amuses me. i hope he wagged his finger.

mistersloane
09-04-2010, 01:56 AM
Moon-on-a-stick is a great phrase, I know what you mean, and yeah, maybe it's expecting instant fixes - "you're hosting the WORLD CUP!!! Please sort out your political system, your poverty and while you're at it, cure HIV, will you? There's a good chap".

I guess I should write to the Guardian (the horror of complaining...) rather than take it out on you lot, I was horrified by that article though. It was front page. It's just such reductionism. "South Africa in poverty and violence shock"....Would you rather have the teenage prostitutes getting fucked by all the football fans? Or would you like to move them to somewhere (stated as temporary) and less liable for abuse? I just don't know what that article was saying at all - or rather, I infer I do - and it just stinks of liberal disgust at a country that isn't doing what 'we're' doing.

Like we're not gonna have mass steamings out East come the Olympics. It's just look at the idiocy surrounding policies in our own backyard - the new stadium and their inability to be able to let West Ham take it on without keeping the fucking running track as an example... try and give positive criticism to a country that's at least trying, for god's sake. It was a completely damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't article; I expect that from the Mail.

Sorry, rant over. And Capetown isn't that heavy, at all. Jo-burg's a different matter though.

crackerjack
09-04-2010, 09:05 AM
Would you rather have the teenage prostitutes getting fucked by all the football fans?

Can't they move all the prostitutes out of town and leave the fans with no one to fuck but each other?

That would be a truly rainbow World Cup

baboon2004
09-04-2010, 10:23 AM
That Guardian article is terribly confused, like someone waving a finger at the situation and going 'bad!'

'Andile Mngxitama, a political commentator and columnist, is about to publish a pamphlet entitled "Fuck the World Cup".'

That bit did make me laugh though.

Can anyone recommend a good book that explains how the 'handover' at the end of apartheid went so disastrously wrong, economically speaking. I got the impression Mbeki was heavily to blame for giving away the prime economic institutions to entrenched (white) interests far too cheaply, but need to read more.


On another issue: Does War on Want describe itself as an 'anti-poverty charity'? Seems very reductionist - surely what it's trying to do is more than that, in challenging the structures/institutions which cause world inequalities. The difference between fighting poverty from a technician's standpoint and a political standpoint is huge.

vimothy
09-04-2010, 10:57 AM
If you think the Guardian's reporting was bad, you should try reading the same story in the Sun.

routes
09-04-2010, 11:34 AM
NEWSFLASH! Die Zonne in irresponsible journalism shocker! see the couple of recent 'heart of darkness' headlines upthread... people i speak to in SA can't believe the shit the UK media get away with. even the beebeesee website is still helpfully shoving all news from 'Africa' into one tidy basket (casket?) ..

that Guardian article was almost triumphant in the way it vacantly singled out Blikkiesdorp. it just isn't news, it's hype. there are hundreds of crumbling 'Mandela towns' dotted all over the country. that's the way it is. i drove past one near Bredasdorp and the image of this absolutely massive decaying rainbow-coloured sign advertising Carling Black Label on the top of a hill over-looking the town and motorway is one that will stay with me..

crackerjack
09-04-2010, 11:36 AM
On another issue: Does War on Want describe itself as an 'anti-poverty charity'? Seems very reductionist - surely what it's trying to do is more than that, in challenging the structures/institutions which cause world inequalities. The difference between fighting poverty from a technician's standpoint and a political standpoint is huge.

Right, but it's probably also the difference between being a charity and a political pressure group. There are, akaik, strict laws governing how deeply they can get involved in politics without losing their charitable (ie tax-free) status?

baboon2004
09-04-2010, 11:56 AM
Right, but it's probably also the difference between being a charity and a political pressure group. There are, akaik, strict laws governing how deeply they can get involved in politics without losing their charitable (ie tax-free) status?

I don't know, in all honesty, and I should do. I guess for WoW it is indeed a way of getting around that, but the law is an ass.

zhao
10-04-2010, 12:09 PM
also.... touch me on my studio has become some kind of meme already..... WTF?

yeah i was sent a (pretty cheasy deep house) tune which samples it yesterday...

routes
11-04-2010, 05:00 PM
yep. obligatory 'make the circle bigger' version here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOFkSktQDFQ)

also, 'Homosexual Link to Terre'blanche Murder Examined'
(http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2010/04/11/world/international-uk-safrica-terreblanche.html?_r=2) from the NY frickin Times...

routes
20-04-2010, 09:33 AM
malema off the hook (http://www.timeslive.co.za/local/article410766.ece/Malema-off-the-hook-as-Zuma-makes-U-turn)... what a surprise...

routes
22-11-2011, 06:55 AM
2011... SA about to (probably) pass a new Freedom of Information act that will set the country back generations. today is a sad day tbh.

zhao
22-11-2011, 07:45 AM
2011... SA about to (probably) pass a new Freedom of Information act that will set the country back generations. today is a sad day tbh.

i don't know anything about this... presuming it's a little more than an anti-censorship thing? or why is it bad?

routes
22-11-2011, 08:28 AM
as ever Zapiro (http://www.zapiro.com/cartoon/589725-111122tt) says it best

it hasn't been reported in the UK either. even the BBC's 'Africa' subsection doesn't mention it. tbh SA doomsayers have been predicting ever since Zuma got in.

mistersloane
01-12-2011, 01:45 PM
as ever Zapiro (http://www.zapiro.com/cartoon/589725-111122tt) says it best

it hasn't been reported in the UK either. even the BBC's 'Africa' subsection doesn't mention it. tbh SA doomsayers have been predicting ever since Zuma got in.

We were in Grahamstown for Black Tuesday - I wore black, one guy was walking down the street just buzzing a tazer, up and down the street. Everyone in SA is super depressed about the Bill, and its coverage overseas is appalling. It's the only thing any of the print media - even the Voice and the tabloids - are talking about.