South Africa in the year 2010

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routes

we can delay.ay.ay...
Eugene Terre'blanche killed..... AWB spokesperson says "The death of Mr Terre'Blanche is a declaration of war by the black community of South Africa to the white community that has been killed for 10 years on end." (i realise noone gives a fuck about the AWB but this is still pretty shit......i mean, noone gives a fuck about the AWB, right? right?!)

Julius Malema, very popular leader of the ANC youth league, sings an old apartheid song about shooting boers at an ANC rally and is mouthing off at every opportunity about how SA has a long way to go until it catches up with Zimbabwe...

Zuma calls for calm...
 
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mistersloane

heavy heavy monster sound
I think it's just colonialist media trying to prove that Africa is still the heart of darkness really, see this article from the Guardian this weekend :

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/apr/01/south-africa-world-cup-blikkiesdorp

The focus was always going to be on SA in the drive toward the World Cup, that Africa isn't 'worthy' of hosting other nations. One farmer getting killed - regardless is who he was - isn't really anything.

I realise I'm a bit biased and defensive about this though.
 
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routes

we can delay.ay.ay...
interested to know what you mean by 'colonialist media'? do you mean UK media? do you mean English-language SA media? both?

the AWB says they have signed up over 3000 new members in the last week.. :confused: De Klerk has reportedly written to Zuma asking him to get Malema to shut up or risk causing a "violent incident" but he won't/can't do anything. Malema has publicly broken with Zuma's ANC line before so...? there was nearly a riot when he spoke at Cape Town university at the end of last year...

i love the story about the government investing gazillions in a massive fleet of super-taxis for the Cape Town WC tourists but then the project mysteriously ran out of budget so they were unable to finalise the infrastructure, timetable, implement the traffic changes, recruit drivers, etc etc. the word is that a few of the local taxi companies got together and threatened to cause problems during the WC if the Super-Taxi plan went ahead... but obviously that doesn't get reported by SABC, Cape Times, etc cos they're all ANC channels...

either way, some amusing 'heart of darkness' UK headlines - "World Cup Fans Face Bloodbath", "Race War Declared In SA", "World Cup War: Machete Threat to England Fans" Juju clearly doesn't give much of a shit tho -

"We want the mines. They have been exploiting our minerals for a long time. Now it's our turn to also enjoy from these minerals. They are so bright, they are colourful, we refer to them as white people, maybe their colour came as a result of exploiting our minerals and perhaps if some of us can get opportunities in these minerals we can develop some nice colour like them."
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
mistersloane said:
The focus was always going to be on SA in the drive toward the World Cup, that Africa isn't 'worthy' of hosting other nations. One farmer getting killed - regardless is who he was - isn't really anything.
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In fairness, wasn't one of the African teams targeted in an ambush last year, bunch of people AK'd to death...? It wasn't in SA, but pretty :eek: nonetheless.
 
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baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
Mr. Tea said:
In fairness, wasn't one of the African teams targeted in an ambush last year, bunch of people AK'd to death...? It wasn't in SA, but pretty :eek: nonetheless.
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At the ACN at the start of the year. The Togolese team were travelling through an area of eastern Angola that was a known 'rebel' stronghold, just over the border from the DRC (in the midst of a seemingly endless 'civil' war - with numbers of deaths comparable to the holocaust - that it seems in Western interests not to give two shits about due to the mineral wealth there and the possibilities of extraction amidst the chaos etc etc), that they were specifically advised not to go through. As I understand it.

The Western obsession with simultaneously raping and demonising Africa goes on...

Edit: And as Sloane says, these are just incidents that happen everywhere anyway. Did anyone consider the 2012 Olympics to be too dangerous to go to when Menezes was shot dead in cold blood at a tube station by state operatives in 2005? Etc etc.

Edit 2: Also (and I thinkt his is important) 2 people died in that incident (I think I'm correct in saying). Tragic and horrific, but not a massacre by any stretch.
 
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crackerjack

Well-known member
baboon2004 said:
Edit: And as Sloane says, these are just incidents that happen everywhere anyway. Did anyone consider the 2012 Olympics to be too dangerous to go to when Menezes was shot dead in cold blood at a tube station by state operatives in 2005? Etc etc.
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No, because regardless of de Menezes (and, you might add, the 52 murdered on 7/7), the UK's murder rate is a fraction of SA's. Last figs I can find - these are 10 years out of date, more recent can prob be found if you have the time - show it as the 2nd highest in the world.
 
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baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
crackerjack said:
No, because regardless of de Menezes (and, you might add, the 52 murdered on 7/7), the UK's murder rate is a fraction of SA's. Last figs I can find - these are 10 years out of date, more recent can prob be found if you have the time - show it as the 2nd highest in the world.
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That is true - prob should have worded more carefully, but was just immediatley referring to the specific incident Mr Tea referenced.

But seriously - consideration as to WHY the South African murder rate might be that high, would be worth much more than looking up further statistics. it is not a fact that exists in south Africa in isolation from the rest of the world - in fact, the rest of the world has been EXTREMELY instrumental in setting up the specific social conditions that exist in south Africa (and many other countries).
 
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crackerjack

Well-known member
baboon2004 said:
That is true - prob should have worded more carefully, but was just immediatley referring to the specific incident Mr Tea referenced.

But seriously - consideration as to WHY the South African murder rate might be that high, would be worth much more than looking up further statistics. it is not a fact that exists in south Africa in isolation from the rest of the world - in fact, the rest of the world has been EXTREMELY instrumental in setting up the specific social conditions that exist in south Africa (and many other countries).
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True, of course. But while that's certainly worth pointing out, esp to those starting down the Heart of Darkness line, it shouldn't be allowed to cloud the fact that Malema is, by almost all accounts, a dangerous racist cunt.
 
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baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
crackerjack said:
True, of course. But while that's certainly worth pointing out, esp to those starting down the Heart of Darkness line, it shouldn't be allowed to cloud the fact that Malema is, by almost all accounts, a dangerous racist cunt.
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Will have to read a bit about Malema, but there are dangerous, racist cunts in every society, and in most they exist near to, or in, positions of power. Just sometimes they are rather less outspoken about their beliefs.
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
baboon2004 said:
That is true - prob should have worded more carefully, but was just immediatley referring to the specific incident Mr Tea referenced.

But seriously - consideration as to WHY the South African murder rate might be that high, would be worth much more than looking up further statistics. it is not a fact that exists in south Africa in isolation from the rest of the world - in fact, the rest of the world has been EXTREMELY instrumental in setting up the specific social conditions that exist in south Africa (and many other countries).
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Well yeah, I mean anyone who isn't an idiot can see this - but merely being aware of it isn't going to protect anyone there during the WC, be they black or white, player, tourist or SA citizen.

And yes, innocent people can and do get killed in any and every city, both by regular 'criminals' and agents of the state. Though as crackerjack says, there's no quantitative comparison between the murder rate in London and that in Jo'burg or Cape Town.
 
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baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
Um, true - but the general historical logic of the West in this goes : grind countries into utter poverty and disorder through repeated actions (including in this case of course enabling the white minority in south Africa to seize/continue to own the economic means of power in the early 90s, while everyone went on about political power), and then blame and ostracise said countries for being quite fucked up and 'unable to stage events' (or whatever).

i mean, the only argument worth having here is a historical one. Take history out and why SA is as it is becomes incomprehensible.
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
baboon2004 said:
Um, true - but the general historical logic of the West in this goes : grind countries into utter poverty and disorder through repeated actions (including in this case of course enabling the white minority in south Africa to seize/continue to own the economic means of power in the early 90s, while everyone went on about political power), and then blame and ostracise said countries for being quite fucked up and 'unable to stage events' (or whatever).

i mean, the only argument worth having here is a historical one. Take history out and why SA is as it is becomes incomprehensible.
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Sure, agreed on all counts. In the absence of a historical view, Africa as a whole just looks "inherently" violent, unstable, war-torn, poor...which is clearly nuts.
 
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baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
Mr. Tea said:
Sure, agreed on all counts. In the absence of a historical view, Africa as a whole just looks "inherently" violent, unstable, war-torn, poor...which is clearly nuts.
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i'm lucky enough to have access to a university library at the moment, so getting hold of this stuff is easier, but let's just look at google books for a second....

hmm, no luck on a preview of the book, but this one:

http://books.google.com/books?id=8xtHAAAAMAAJ&q=hoogvelt&dq=hoogvelt&cd=1

has a really interesting section (pp37-41 IIRC) on how colonialist creatin of a clientelist state (combined with divide-and-conquer strategies) ensured many African states would descend into chaos when economic times were hard.

Also Walter Rodney's book is just superbly eye-opening, and IS free on the net:

http://www.marxists.org/subject/africa/rodney-walter/how-europe/index.htm
 
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routes

we can delay.ay.ay...
'history' is exactly where this live televised debate between sleb political analyst Lebohang Pheko and Secretary General of the AWB Andre Visagie broke down.... broadcast on e.TV, they were there to “discuss race relations in South Africa in the wake of Terre’Blanche’s murder.” fast forward to about 0.30...

 
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crackerjack

Well-known member
routes said:
'history' is exactly where this live televised debate between sleb political analyst Lebohang Pheko and Secretary General of the AWB Andre Visagie broke down.... broadcast on e.TV, they were there to “discuss race relations in South Africa in the wake of Terre’Blanche’s murder.” fast forward to about 0.30...

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God, poor man, no one told him the end of apartheid means blacks now have interrupting rights. Doesn't giving it the big 'I am' work any more? ;)
 
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scottdisco

rip this joint please
we can all rightly cite chapter and verse on the legacy of colonialism (which is obviously to African history bigger than history itself, the entire 'super-fact' in many ways, far vaster than Lennon's bluesy chair), structural injustice, and how best to frame all these fundamental issues wrt the often rapacious (or at best disinterested) west, but none of this alters the achingly contemporary and relevant truths that RSA has a horrific violent crime rate, is about to host some beano in a few months, and that Malema is a dangerous racist cunt* who lives in the RSA.

* as are the AWB, of course, although they are far less influential these days, even despite their relatively recent, despicable history of active bloodshedding.
 
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baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
scottdisco said:
we can all rightly cite chapter and verse on the legacy of colonialism (which is obviously to African history bigger than history itself, the entire 'super-fact' in many ways, far vaster than Lennon's bluesy chair), structural injustice, and how best to frame all these fundamental issues wrt the often rapacious (or at best disinterested) west, but none of this alters the achingly contemporary and relevant truths that RSA has a horrific violent crime rate, is about to host some beano in a few months, and that Malema is a dangerous racist cunt* who lives in the RSA.

* as are the AWB, of course, although they are far less influential these days, even despite their relatively recent, despicable history of active bloodshedding.
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But what's the conclusion that follows from the high crime stats being relevant? Some non-South African people who have chosen to visit for a sporting event are going to be in the same kind of danger (well, apart from staying in nice hotels and avoiding the 'bad areas' and stuff) as lots of people who have to deal with that every day? Should FIFA therefore not hold the WC in SA?

I can't recall much of this hysterical talk going on when the Lions fans visited SA last year, as a side point. obv it's not the World Cup, but still a major, major sporting occasion.
 
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