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Woebot
25-04-2010, 05:00 PM
Where did this start?

As slang I mean.

[It's rapidly in danger of becoming the new "bling".]

So and so "owns" so and so.
Such and such "owns" such and such.

Not nice.

mistersloane
25-04-2010, 05:05 PM
I would have said it was gaming but doin a wiki brought up hackers :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Owned

I quite like the pwned one though, I like the idea of mistakes becoming vernacular, regardless of their inherent meaning.

Sectionfive
25-04-2010, 05:36 PM
Prison ?

Mr. Tea
25-04-2010, 08:16 PM
I find it quite amusing - but then, some would call me easily amused, I'm sure.

Whatever its origins, it's certainly gained widespread currency as a result of online gaming.

Edit: I agree with mistersloane, "pwned" (rhymes with "boned") has a pleasing ring to it too. And can be used to construct a watertight form of logical argument: modus pwnens. (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=modus%20pwnens)

zhao
25-04-2010, 09:10 PM
similar to the reggae "control" no? like so and so selecta controls to the fullest.

for sure better than the frat boy "dominate".

how do you feel about "sonned" woebot.

nomadthethird
25-04-2010, 09:56 PM
I find it quite amusing - but then, some would call me easily amused, I'm sure.

Whatever its origins, it's certainly gained widespread currency as a result of online gaming.

Edit: I agree with mistersloane, "pwned" (rhymes with "boned") has a pleasing ring to it too. And can be used to construct a watertight form of logical argument: modus pwnens. (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=modus%20pwnens)

Everytime I read "modus pwnens" I always think "modus LOLens" for modus tollens as well.

grizzleb
26-04-2010, 12:54 AM
I quite like the pwned one though, I like the idea of mistakes becoming vernacular, regardless of their inherent meaning.+1. Think about this alot. Like language being made up entirely up of mistakes.

Dr Awesome
26-04-2010, 03:02 AM
The idea of pwned/pwnd is that you don't pronounce the P in spoken language (it's said simply as owned), the P is entirely a written vernacular.

computer_rock
26-04-2010, 07:12 PM
The idea of pwned/pwnd is that you don't pronounce the P in spoken language (it's said simply as owned), the P is entirely a written vernacular.

being that it originated from an error can we really say there is an idea behind it?

Woebot
26-04-2010, 07:28 PM
how do you feel about "sonned" woebot.

yikes. not heard that one.

Woebot
26-04-2010, 07:31 PM
actually now that i know it has its roots in gaming (nerdy) it bothers me a lot less. i thought it was gang slanguage. kind of like capitalism infects everything (see Mark Fisher's Capitalist Realism book)

nomadthethird
26-04-2010, 09:04 PM
actually now that i know it has its roots in gaming (nerdy) it bothers me a lot less. i thought it was gang slanguage. kind of like capitalism infects everything (see Mark Fisher's Capitalist Realism book)

So, when white men engage in macho posturing it's ok.

It's only bad when the scary black men does it?

I hope that's not what you're saying, but it sure sounds that way...

woops
26-04-2010, 09:48 PM
oh never mind

Mr. Tea
26-04-2010, 10:32 PM
Yup, just last year the Met launched Operation Pwnage to tackle the scourge of white-on-white gaming-related violence in London. :eek:

Dr Awesome
27-04-2010, 12:23 AM
being that it originated from an error can we really say there is an idea behind it?

Well.... yes. Groups that modify their own lexicon surely have the right to define pronunciation?
Check out these (http://www.purepwnage.com/home_outside) guys and note how the name is pronounced.
I believe it's similar to people saying "el oh el" out loud (IRL, IMO, TBH).

mistersloane
27-04-2010, 01:49 AM
being that it originated from an error can we really say there is an idea behind it?

Surely the fact that it did originate from an mistake is the idea behind it? Is an unwanted pregnancy worth keeping if you think the kid might grow up to be used by the whole world?

zhao
27-04-2010, 07:25 AM
come to think of it, i also wonder why a gaming origin of the word makes Woebot feel better about it than if it came from street gangs. surely both would equally be cases of capitalism infecting everything?

Woebot
27-04-2010, 09:20 AM
come to think of it, i also wonder why a gaming origin of the word makes Woebot feel better about it than if it came from street gangs. surely both would equally be cases of capitalism infecting everything?

i suppose - on the face of it - spotty geeks are less threatening than organised criminals?

luka
27-04-2010, 09:23 AM
i hate all this new internet derived slang. it makes me sick.
fail
is another one, maybe even more obnoxious

woops
27-04-2010, 09:24 AM
capitalism infects everything (see Mark Fisher's Capitalist Realism book)

it's a business owntology

Mr. Tea
27-04-2010, 12:59 PM
it's a business owntology

Blehahaha, excellent.

Mr. Tea
27-04-2010, 01:05 PM
i hate all this new internet derived slang. it makes me sick.
fail
is another one, maybe even more obnoxious

Aw cmon, "facepalm" has a certain charm. You're pretty fond of that one yourself. It works beautifully if you imagine it as a sticky, burning chemical weapon you want to drop on people when they say dumb things on the internet: "I love the smell of facepalm in the morning..."

grizzleb
27-04-2010, 03:21 PM
I've got to admit, I don't really like the internet related chat when spoken aloud. It conveys a certain gaucheness when used in every day conversation imo.

massrock
27-04-2010, 03:28 PM
It's funny (stupid) when people say 'lol' but don't actually laugh. Lol.

This is how language evolves though.

Owntology, yeah that's good. :)

woops
27-04-2010, 03:36 PM
I like to convey a certain gaucheness.
Facepalm is funny yes but I would rather actually palm my face than say the word.
Fail is obnoxious I agree. Win is kind of funny though. Or am I just mindlessly positive?
I listened to Lil Wayne and Pharrell's 'Yes' radio edit and at one point Wayne says 'IMHO'
It was bleeped to 'im--'

4linehaiku
27-04-2010, 05:58 PM
I've got to admit, I don't really like the internet related chat when spoken aloud. It conveys a certain gaucheness when used in every day conversation imo.

Yeah that's exactly why I do it. I never use LOL online, it's meaningless. Much more amusing when spoken.

Something I have noticed from some of the more internet-y / nerdy corners of the web is that the lol -> rofl -> lmao progression has reached a point of such over-saturation that people now say things like "I laughed IRL" as the next level of intensifier. I really enjoy this, and cannot wait until it is inevitable shortened to LIRL and the whole cycle can repeat.

joe.dfx
27-04-2010, 06:10 PM
i've been saying this since high school and that was in the past century.

maybe it's a stateside thing? dunno...nothing new really though?

Mr. Tea
27-04-2010, 06:34 PM
It's funny (stupid) when people say 'lol' but don't actually laugh. Lol.


Thing is, if you say "lol" out loud then you've "lolol'd", haven't you?

And there's nothing stopping you (other than innate human decency or the threat of a sound beating, I suppose) to stop you saying "lolol" out loud...it's an infinite regress. :eek:

massrock
27-04-2010, 06:37 PM
.it's an infinite regress. :eek:
Yes, you know where that particular hall of mirrors leads to don't you?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oavMtUWDBTM

massrock
27-04-2010, 06:40 PM
a point of such over-saturation that people now say things like "I laughed IRL" as the next level of intensifier.
Or I LOL'd IRL.

4linehaiku
27-04-2010, 06:57 PM
Exactly. Next step: ROFLIRLing.

woops
27-04-2010, 07:58 PM
and LMRAO

Mr. Tea
27-04-2010, 08:38 PM
http://uraffuruse.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/LMAO.jpg

nomadthethird
27-04-2010, 09:43 PM
i suppose - on the face of it - spotty geeks are less threatening than organised criminals?

From an economic/capitalist point-of-view, the geeks have a lot more power than some black men fighting over drug turf do.

Believe it or not.

Mr. Tea
27-04-2010, 09:52 PM
Because anyone who plays computer games is probably going to be the next Bill Gates...?

It's a meaningless statement. Define "power".

Slothrop
27-04-2010, 09:54 PM
i suppose - on the face of it - spotty geeks are less threatening than organised criminals?
Also, given that (probably like a lot of people on here) I'm culturally closer to being a spotty geek than being a gang member, I probably feel a bit less daft using the word 'owned' to describe something fairly stupid and immaterial that occurs in my daily life than I would appropriating something with a much darker and more, er, real reality to it...

nomadthethird
27-04-2010, 09:55 PM
Because anyone who plays computer games is probably going to be the next Bill Gates...?

It's a meaningless statement. Define "power".

Access to goods, services, capital, education, jobs, wealth, security, food, legal services, medical services, justice in court, respect, freedom from institutionalized racism...

I could go on forever.

nomadthethird
27-04-2010, 09:58 PM
Also, given that (probably like a lot of people on here) I'm culturally closer to being a spotty geek than being a gang member, I probably feel a bit less daft using the word 'owned' to describe something fairly stupid and immaterial that occurs in my daily life than I would appropriating something with a much darker and more, er, real reality to it...

It's still bullshit macho posturing, though.

I mean, I've said it myself. Plenty of times. It's also just a silly internet meme.

But it originates in macho posturing.

The idea that black men are some kind of dark and terrifying threat to us spotty geeks is sort of strange... I mean, to one another, because they have to fight for precious resources-- yes, sadly, that's probably true.

That Dizzee Rascal video from the MIA thread would fit here, too.

grizzleb
28-04-2010, 01:03 PM
Access to goods, services, capital, education, jobs, wealth, security, food, legal services, medical services, justice in court, respect, freedom from institutionalized racism...

I could go on forever.Not neccesarily true (not all of it anyway). Much of the geeks today, especially those who have grown up playing games/using the internet have found themselves heavily isolated and ostracized from much of social life - the japanese phenomenom of 'hikkikomori' has some relevance here. Of course, I don't mean that they aren't treated insitutionally differently in many ways, but access to capital, education, jobs, wealth, respect, security amongst white working-class geeks in britain at any rate isn't so obvious. I'm not trying to pick a tet a tet back and forth with you nomad, it's just that the problems that emerge out of 'pc/internet culture' as something that acts to isolate and ostracise people from mainstream society is something that I haven't really heard discussed anywhere at any length, I'm just trying to maybe probe and get some thoughts off other people. (another qualifying statement to avoid petty squabbling again - black people have had it much worse and still do!!!)

grizzleb
28-04-2010, 01:15 PM
More generally there's a problem with saying that only one group is a victim of society, that you can only talk about one group being a victim as any others are less, it totally removes any of the subtleties and intricacies that societal problems entail and creates a situation where injustice generally is ignored, because only one problem is historically significant enough to warrant ones outrage.

It's like Israel and their implicit claim that no-one can know grief like them, that they are the sole owners of grief - it's a dangerous thing that creates a victimhood which dampens any other injustices that other peoples or groups have experienced, lessening their impact of whatever has happened - i.e the structure is - your injustice is less than ours (which may well be wholy true) and so your injustice is nothing (which is bullshit).

Just a thought.

nomadthethird
02-05-2010, 06:18 PM
More generally there's a problem with saying that only one group is a victim of society, that you can only talk about one group being a victim as any others are less, it totally removes any of the subtleties and intricacies that societal problems entail and creates a situation where injustice generally is ignored, because only one problem is historically significant enough to warrant ones outrage.

It's like Israel and their implicit claim that no-one can know grief like them, that they are the sole owners of grief - it's a dangerous thing that creates a victimhood which dampens any other injustices that other peoples or groups have experienced, lessening their impact of whatever has happened - i.e the structure is - your injustice is less than ours (which may well be wholy true) and so your injustice is nothing (which is bullshit).

Just a thought.

Yeah, except pointing out that a class of former slaves has it worse than geeky middle class white men is nothing like saying Israel has a right to Palestinian land.

scottdisco
02-05-2010, 08:00 PM
More generally there's a problem with saying that only one group is a victim of society, that you can only talk about one group being a victim as any others are less, it totally removes any of the subtleties and intricacies that societal problems entail and creates a situation where injustice generally is ignored, because only one problem is historically significant enough to warrant ones outrage.

fair comment.

Mixed_Biscuits and Polystyle have some interesting thoughts from page 4 of that cultural differences thread (http://www.dissensus.com/showthread.php?10749-a-few-cultural-differences/page4) that kind of fit w Grizzleb bringing up hikikomori. (though i know you were on that thread too, G.)

Grizzleb's legitimate quibbles w some aspects of Nomad's generally sound definition of power aside (ie white w/c geeks in the UK hardly have a fine old time of it structurally speaking in that country), i think she is rather pwning this thread ;)

(sorry, i'll get my coat)

but re problems emerging out of internet/pc culture that work to isolate people, i agree Grizzleb, it's something we hear very little about. granted, i don't have anything to add i'm ashamed to say, as it's not an area i know of (despite spending a fair bit of time online my online usage is mostly geared toward reading Fancy a Pint reviews so i can see which pub to meet that mate at this time, or arguing about politics/football which i then repeat when i'm out and etc etc etc) :o

i wonder if a higher percentage (relative to another income bracket background) of low income kids 'choose' to withdraw as geeks

or a higher percentage (ditto) of middle income kids 'choose' to withdraw, and so on.

if there was some way of factoring in that to a discussion about internet/pc culture, that might be the basis of an interesting group of stats. i mean, i know kids escape into fantasy when the real world is too cruel or indifferent to want to work with (or for a million and one reasons, i'm sure), but that can cover a multitude of withdrawn folk from a wide range of backgrounds etc.

sorry this is all rather amateur hour sociology but hey!

matmustard
03-05-2010, 12:35 AM
i thought it was gang slanguage.


So, when white men engage in macho posturing it's ok.

It's only bad when the scary black men does it?

why the assumption that gang = black? woebot made no mention of race.
are all "scary black men" in gangs?

grizzleb
03-05-2010, 02:38 AM
why the assumption that gang = black? woebot made no mention of race.
are all "scary black men" in gangs?Haha. Are all geeks white?

@nomad - I'm just pointing out the problems with every conversation about people who aren't in a position of status/wealth/power tending towards "but they aren't black, their problems are lesser" or equivalent.

Does the geek shut in who has x, y mental health problems, no qualifications, heavy social problems have it better off than the big G who makes a reasonable living off the back of punting drugs? (I'm being facetious but the point remains).

scottdisco
03-05-2010, 09:49 AM
does anyone know any geeks? i mean in the classical, stereotyped sense of people who game a lot, sustain themselves socially through online gaming networks etc almost exclusively?

(stop me if this is a one-dimensional or plain wrong view of what you can call geek culture. i mean, there are coffee geeks, pasta geeks, cricket geeks, techno geeks, etc, but i mean the online gamer kind, as i've known of a few down the years - not in contact no more - and one could always see how choices made virtually about another hour on the machine impacted negatively on their real-life commitments etc. anecdotal, of course.)

zhao
03-05-2010, 10:09 PM
what about "caned". haven't heard that one too often, might be an older generation thing?

last read on a text message from a friend who just finished a gig in Sweden: "we caned them!"

zhao
03-05-2010, 10:10 PM
i'm a geek and a gangster at the same time.

scottdisco
03-05-2010, 10:17 PM
haha caned is great, i do like that one! 'tanned' is a similar one. i used to use them both myself a lot.

i don't know about other Anglophone countries but certainly in the UK caned is also a synonym for drunk. (or i guess other substances too.) and if you are caning it you are imbibing.

massrock
03-05-2010, 10:19 PM
what about "caned". haven't heard that one too often, might be an older generation thing?

last read on a text message from a friend who just finished a gig in Sweden: "we caned them!"
In Brit slang to be 'caned' usually means either very wasted (typically on marijuana), or to cane something is to do / use / indulge in a lot of it.

nomadthethird
03-05-2010, 10:23 PM
No, the point does not remain.

White people do not, no matter who they are, or how lowly their social status, deal with the same basic level of institutionalized racism that minorities do *every day*, *all the time*, in *every walk of life*.

Goddammit, the whole "but what about the poor white meenzz?" internet shtick is so ridiculous.


why the assumption that gang = black? woebot made no mention of race.
are all "scary black men" in gangs?

Snort. No, but most gangs are black men or other minorities. What I said does not require that all gangs are black, but simply that most gangs are made of minorities, and most often, black men.

The fact that some white people have it rough in no way mitigates or negates the fact that the vast majority of ethnic majorities in post-colonial diasporas are disadvantaged socially, economically, and otherwise. This is what "white privilege" means-- all white people have it, simply by virtue of being seen as "white" by society, without even trying. A poor white person, even at the same income/poverty level as a black person, has a better shot at economic opportunities and social parity than their black counterpart does.

The logical 'abilities' of people on here gets to me sometimes. Think through what you say... think, am I maybe trying to sweep racism under the rug by shutting down any discussion of the fact that it exists?

massrock
03-05-2010, 10:23 PM
An American once told me that geeks are simply people with a strong interest in something, as Scott suggests. This is not necessarily the same as a nerd at all. I never thought it applies solely to gamers. That would be like Otaku, right?

I like how in that interview (with Tony Wilson?) Iggy Pop almost equates nerds with twits. Funny to hear Americans using such British words in slightly the wrong way. Like how it's nearly always funny when a yank says 'wanker', or 'bollocks'.

nomadthethird
03-05-2010, 10:40 PM
I like how in that interview (with Tony Wilson?) Iggy Pop almost equates nerds with twits. Funny to hear Americans using such British words in slightly the wrong way. Like how it's nearly always funny when a yank says 'wanker', or 'bollocks'.

The only American I've ever heard say either of those words is Padraig, on here.

How is "nerd" an English word and not an American one? Or are you saying twit is? Because nobody here says that, either.

massrock
03-05-2010, 10:45 PM
Padraig usually gets the Brit slang almost right, tbf. ;)

Iggy says 'nerd' (in reference to himself) and then concerned that Brit audiences may not know the word fumbles around for an equivalent, coming up with 'twit'. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6sx0QV-fA2c

4linehaiku
03-05-2010, 10:46 PM
does anyone know any geeks? i mean in the classical, stereotyped sense of people who game a lot, sustain themselves socially through online gaming networks etc almost exclusively?

(stop me if this is a one-dimensional or plain wrong view of what you can call geek culture. i mean, there are coffee geeks, pasta geeks, cricket geeks, techno geeks, etc, but i mean the online gamer kind, as i've known of a few down the years - not in contact no more - and one could always see how choices made virtually about another hour on the machine impacted negatively on their real-life commitments etc. anecdotal, of course.)

I'm just finishing up a four year computer science related degree, so yeah I know quite a lot of proper old school geeks. Though of course they are surrounded by people with similar interests so I guess the sustain themselves socially via games alone part might be missing. The result of my ethnographic studies: they are much like any other group of people with strong interests in things I don't really care about, and are no more or less boring / socially inadequate than people who bang on about football or whatever.

Though actually now I think about it I know another couple of guys who work part-time in a supermarket and outside of work do literally nothing but smoke weed and play Starcraft. They definitely did fall into online-identity only stereotype. I didn't take any precise scientific readings of their abstract 'power' though, so I'm not sure I can help settle the debate. They were fucking good at Starcraft though I can tell you that much.

Edit: Geeks / Nerds / Whatever. I don't know what the differences are.

4linehaiku
03-05-2010, 10:49 PM
Also "caned' is excellent. Usually in the context of going very fast though.

scottdisco
03-05-2010, 10:55 PM
I'm just finishing up a four year computer science related degree, so yeah I know quite a lot of proper old school geeks. Though of course they are surrounded by people with similar interests so I guess the sustain themselves socially via games alone part might be missing. The result of my ethnographic studies: they are much like any other group of people with strong interests in things I don't really care about, and are no more or less boring / socially inadequate than people who bang on about football or whatever.

Though actually now I think about it I know another couple of guys who work part-time in a supermarket and outside of work do literally nothing but smoke weed and play Starcraft. They definitely did fall into online-identity only stereotype. I didn't take any precise scientific readings of their abstract 'power' though, so I'm not sure I can help settle the debate. They were fucking good at Starcraft though I can tell you that much.

Edit: Geeks / Nerds / Whatever. I don't know what the differences are.

all fair comment, i sounded like a bit of a cock earlier, my bad. i just meant, the two chaps you know of there who literally fall into an online-only stereotype, well, i guess i was running rather too imprecisely w something someone else brought up earlier... (some of my phrasing in this thread is fucking embarrassing, tbf)

scottdisco
03-05-2010, 11:06 PM
This is what "white privilege" means-- all white people have it, simply by virtue of being seen as "white" by society, without even trying.

true. but does Grizzleb have to make these (totally accurate) caveats every time they want to raise some point about the economic status of poor w/c British whites specifically? it is going to be in all our minds when we discuss it, i just don't think we necessarily need to insert these caveats on the board.

(though i appreciate context is all, and so not being mindful of white privilege would obviously be a massive oversight, to say the very least.)

natch, their white privilege means all the things you said, but i did quite enjoy the way Grizzleb tackled talking about society's victims earlier, seemed fair to me...

4linehaiku
03-05-2010, 11:38 PM
Ah I only just clocked the point you were making re: the geeks. I kind of skipped over it, and just responded blindly to your "anyone know any?" post. The University types aren't really withdrawing, they're just students. Soon to imminently employable ones at that, with IBM internships etc, so they certainly don't count as left behind by society / whatever this thread is tangentially about recently.

The other guys, well I'm not really sure about their social backgrounds, but I think the obsessive gaming is a symptom rather than the problem for sure. One of these guys lived with a mate of mine for a bit, and he was extremely shy, so not really killing it on the social scene, his job was a menial grind, he had no qualifications or grand ambitions or whatever. So what else was he going to do? If didn't have the computer games he'd probably be smoking weed and watching TV instead. I'd pick the games every time given that choice.

You could argue that online gaming is making things worse by making the retreat from reality easier, but if IRL is basically shit then why not be a level 200 paladin or one of the best 'game X' players in the UK or whatever.

scottdisco
03-05-2010, 11:46 PM
University types aren't really withdrawing, they're just students. Soon to imminently employable ones at that, with IBM internships etc, so they certainly don't count as left behind by society...You could argue that online gaming is making things worse by making the retreat from reality easier, but if IRL is basically shit then why not be a level 200 paladin or one of the best 'game X' players in the UK or whatever.

deffo to all this.

nomadthethird
03-05-2010, 11:47 PM
true. but does Grizzleb have to make these (totally accurate) caveats every time they want to raise some point about the economic status of poor w/c British whites specifically? it is going to be in all our minds when we discuss it, i just don't think we necessarily need to insert these caveats on the board.

(though i appreciate context is all, and so not being mindful of white privilege would obviously be a massive oversight, to say the very least.)

natch, their white privilege means all the things you said, but i did quite enjoy the way Grizzleb tackled talking about society's victims earlier, seemed fair to me...

I think eliding that info from a discussion is a huge problem and one of the not-even subtle ways that institutionalized racism perpetuates itself...

Anyway, the whole reason it was brought up at all was because someone made a post that implied that "owning" when used as slang was more acceptable morally because it didn't originate in gang 'slanguage'-- which makes it somehow less capitalistical than if it originated in Geekspeak. I mean, I don't see how I'm the only person who found that strange... it's the same thing every racist in the U.S. says-- that somehow racial minorities being macho, hip-hop, 'thug' clothes, etc., are all signs that Satan is upon us. But Clint Eastwood is an American hero.

4linehaiku
04-05-2010, 12:08 AM
My reading of that comment was slightly different. "Owned" is entering (or entered) common usage as a sort of general "I'm better than" term. Isn't that more palatable if its original meaning is somebody beating some else in a computer game rather than actually killing them / beating them senseless? The people using it isn't the issue, it's the meaning. Woebot (I think it was Woebot) was conflating "gang slanguage" with violence. You are conflating it with race.

scottdisco
04-05-2010, 12:13 AM
I think eliding that info from a discussion is a huge problem and one of the not-even subtle ways that institutionalized racism perpetuates itself...

i can see that's true re elisions, truly, i can (despite what problems and pauses this gives myself when i think about my own responses to these issues); i think my responses are suffering, tbh, from only jumping into this thread to see something Grizzleb said that i liked about victims (my i am burning their ears today!), when


More generally there's a problem with saying that only one group is a victim of society, that you can only talk about one group being a victim as any others are less, it totally removes any of the subtleties and intricacies that societal problems entail and creates a situation where injustice generally is ignored, because only one problem is historically significant enough to warrant ones outrage.

i mean, there are hierarchies (or should be, in terms of deserving of remedy, discussion, attention) of victimhood, quite rightly of course (and i know i am grossly underplaying structural privileges here when i say 'victimhood' without even considering all the massively loaded bases that are extra-stacked against minority ethnic Britons, say) but the above is fair comment.

but yeah totally true observations re the USA, thugs, Clint, etc, very much.

zhao
04-05-2010, 10:25 AM
Anyway, the whole reason it was brought up at all was because someone made a post that implied that "owning" when used as slang was more acceptable morally because it didn't originate in gang 'slanguage'-- which makes it somehow less capitalistical than if it originated in Geekspeak. I mean, I don't see how I'm the only person who found that strange... it's the same thing every racist in the U.S. says-- that somehow racial minorities being macho, hip-hop, 'thug' clothes, etc., are all signs that Satan is upon us. But Clint Eastwood is an American hero.

on behalf of the board, i thank you for bring it up.

we all grow up in the context of structural racism, and all of us, of whatever color or class, have largely unconscious, foundational racist notions deeply embedded in our heads, on which many other notions might be built.

we all have these, and should not take it personally when someone brings it up, making us check ourselves and in the process becoming more acutely aware of, and sensitive to, this problem which still plagues every part of the world.

zhao
04-05-2010, 10:34 AM
White people do not, no matter who they are, or how lowly their social status, deal with the same basic level of institutionalized racism that minorities do *every day*, *all the time*, in *every walk of life*.

Snort. No, but most gangs are black men or other minorities. What I said does not require that all gangs are black, but simply that most gangs are made of minorities, and most often, black men.

The fact that some white people have it rough in no way mitigates or negates the fact that the vast majority of ethnic majorities in post-colonial diasporas are disadvantaged socially, economically, and otherwise. This is what "white privilege" means-- all white people have it, simply by virtue of being seen as "white" by society, without even trying. A poor white person, even at the same income/poverty level as a black person, has a better shot at economic opportunities and social parity than their black counterpart does.

The logical 'abilities' of people on here gets to me sometimes. Think through what you say... think, am I maybe trying to sweep racism under the rug by shutting down any discussion of the fact that it exists?

this happens with my girlfriend, who will sometimes say i am being paranoid, or overly sensitive, when i find cases of hate speech or stereotyping or plain old fashioned bigotry.

she is less sensitive to it because she has never experienced it first hand, and have no idea what it's like to have experienced it regularly since childhood.

so it is no malice on her part and she doesn't mean to belittle the experience of victimization, it's just that she has not the capacity to understand from a victim's perspective.

baboon2004
04-05-2010, 10:46 AM
this happens with my girlfriend, who will sometimes say i am being paranoid, or overly sensitive, when i find cases of hate speech or stereotyping or plain old fashioned bigotry.

she is less sensitive to it because she has never experienced it first hand, and have no idea what it's like to have experienced it regularly since childhood.

so it is no malice on her part and she doesn't mean to belittle the experience of victimization, it's just that she has not the capacity to understand from a victim's perspective.

but telling someone else it doesn't exist/is in your head is something no-one should do, as it coincides with the typical get-out clause/ response of the oppressor. Your g/f can understand that.

not personalising it at all, but the problem (a la Einstein's famous quote, well twisted a bit) is precsely THAT people who are not affected don't speak out against instances of fascism. I try to as much as I can - and of course I falter/fail on many occasions* - but I do realise it's incumbent upon me as a member of the hegemonic class/status (middle class white male) to speak out where I see bigotry vs others.... it's one of the most important things in the world to realise this, surely?

And it's kinda especially ironic when you live in Germany, cos they kinda had that problem once before, no??!

*I think anyone who says they always speak out is a liar, btw (not related to anyone on this board, as no-one has said this, just for clarity!)

scottdisco
04-05-2010, 10:49 AM
can i just add Zhao i liked your correctly drawing an equivalence between the equally capital-infused foundations of gangs and the world of computer wizardry.

WOEBOT to his credit appears to be giving pause to owning purely through personal discomfort because he believed the word to be associated w gangs that necessarily have to mete out personal violence in order to prosper, nay, survive, in obviously a way that other groups of capitalists (computer programmers etc) don't due to their living within the rule of law as constituted in such and such a society. (which as a fellow weedy WASP much like WOEBOT ;) , i can see what he's getting at.)

Zhao's thing w his gf reminds me of conversations i've had w good non-white British mates, when i was much, much younger, not knowing any better (i hasten to add) and genuinely initially thought some of their perceptions from tales i'd hear were them 'overegging' or over-seasoning the situation; and, of course, they were right and i was wrong when i took a second look and thought about it.

(and some of the things i've heard about race in the USA from American friends of any ethnic background pretty much have made my hair stand on end.)

baboon2004
04-05-2010, 11:33 AM
I had some instances this past weekend where friends of a friend were coming out with mildly racist things...and I let it go, partly cos of peer pressure dynamics, and partly because I guess they weren't hurting anyone directly (just white males talking amongst themselves. But still....). Just makes me feel a little sad.

Zhao, dunno if this is the same where you are, but in Britain anti-Chinese and anit-Japanese racism is still tolerated where anti-Afro-Caribbean or anti-Indian/Pakistani racism wouldn't be. It's fucked up...:o

massrock
04-05-2010, 12:13 PM
As mentioned by Sectionfive on page 1,

Prison ?
Isn't this the actual origin?

Mr. Tea
04-05-2010, 01:03 PM
As mentioned by Sectionfive on page 1,

Isn't this the actual origin?

Who knows? These things are almost invariably impossible to pin down as far as their ultimate origin is concerned. Very often we'll never know for sure, or there isn't a single correct answer even in principal because it's a result of "parallel evolution" of language or the confluence of two originally separate verbal memes. I mean just look up "O.K." on Wikipedia, there's something like a dozen speculative etymologies.

As far as "owning" goes, the prison thing is certainly plausible but can anyone back it up? It certainly became widespread as a result of gamer culture, I'm pretty sure of that though.

massrock
04-05-2010, 01:32 PM
Who knows? These things are almost invariably impossible to pin down as far as their ultimate origin is concerned.
Yes, yes of course.

What I mean is it seems clear that it was in use as prison slang long before it was adopted by gamers etc. And actually in what other context would it have originated in that sense? You know what it means, right? I guess it's also a (very) darkly ironic reference to slave ownership.

And just to further point out the obvious, nerdy gamers adopting this term has a kind of deliberate and slightly self-mocking irony about it.

zhao
04-05-2010, 01:46 PM
Zhao, dunno if this is the same where you are, but in Britain anti-Chinese and anit-Japanese racism is still tolerated where anti-Afro-Caribbean or anti-Indian/Pakistani racism wouldn't be. It's fucked up...:o

there is something to this for sure. i think east asian culture is still alien and therefore threatening in a lot of ways, while "black" culture has been well assimilated for some time.

sorry for so many personal anecdotes but again, my GF's neighbor (who turned out to be a nice guy that i might actually start doing something business with) asked her some sketchy questions like why she is with a CHINESE guy?? and some of her friends have asked her why she doesn't go out with a "nice German boy".

a lot of this i attribute to the fact that there are just very few east asians here in Germany. i think we are easier to pick on for various reasons, and racist jokes about east asians are somehow more OK than jokes about other groups.

Pestario
04-05-2010, 01:58 PM
Zhao, dunno if this is the same where you are, but in Britain anti-Chinese and anit-Japanese racism is still tolerated where anti-Afro-Caribbean or anti-Indian/Pakistani racism wouldn't be. It's fucked up...:o

It's a numbers/visibility game. In Australia east and south-east Asian racism is much less tolerated than anti-Indian/Pakistani racism due to the inverse proportional numbers of each group compared to the UK. Perhas there is a critical mass of a certain group which is required before casual racism against that group becomes untolerable.

baboon2004
04-05-2010, 02:19 PM
sorry for so many personal anecdotes but again, my GF's neighbor (who turned out to be a nice guy that i might actually start doing something business with) asked her some sketchy questions like why she is with a CHINESE guy?? and some of her friends have asked her why she doesn't go out with a "nice German boy".



sorry, but that's really fucked. If any of my friends said something similar (my g/f has Iranian roots, which obv is 'problematic' for some people for differing reasons), they wouldn't be my friend for much longer....didn't realise Germany (and especially Berlin!!!) was quite so backward on issues of race....

grizzleb
04-05-2010, 02:26 PM
It's a numbers/visibility game. In Australia east and south-east Asian racism is much less tolerated than anti-Indian/Pakistani racism due to the inverse proportional numbers of each group compared to the UK. Perhas there is a critical mass of a certain group which is required before casual racism against that group becomes untolerable.
That makes sense.

@Nomad, look at the many caveats I made - I wasn't in any way negating the deep structural or institutional racism that people of non white ethnic origin go through - what I was saying that sometimes it should be possible to talk about social problems that occur apart from that problem, because otherwise you lose sight of injustice as a whole. I think it's pretty funny that you tacitly accuse everyone of being racist when it was you who equated gangs with black people. I don't think that's necessarily true in Britain. Gang culture is pretty ethnically diverse. But whatever, other people's use of language is supporting hememony...sigh. When all I really said was 'there's a problem with some aspect of our culture - what's up with that?'

Anyway, fuck it. I need to get off this forum and do some work haha.

baboon2004
04-05-2010, 02:35 PM
what I was saying that sometimes it should be possible to talk about social problems that occur apart from that problem, because otherwise you lose sight of injustice as a whole. I think it's pretty funny that you tacitly accuse everyone of being racist when it was you who equated gangs with black people. I don't think that's necessarily true in Britain. Gang culture is pretty ethnically diverse.

Not sure about the whole context (no time to read back through all of it), but certainly class is massively important, and cuts across/interacts with race in all kinds of ways (and is implicit in almost very social problem). And gender, of course.

I agree with your second point there theoretically, but when kids were dying left right and centre in south London a couple of years back (obv this hasn't stopped, but the hysteria has died down somewhat), all but one of about 20-25 was black (he was of Thai background, if memory serves). As I say, agree totally with your point in principle, but it's interesting to note, nonetheless

grizzleb
04-05-2010, 02:39 PM
Yeah, there's loads of gang shit that goes down in my city of Glasgow that probably 90% white. Was talking the UK as a whole, obviously London and other English cities it will be different. And it's pretty much all blade culture up here, so less well publicised gun killings. Class is massively important in this, yeah.

baboon2004
04-05-2010, 02:45 PM
Yeah, there's loads of gang shit that goes down in my city of Glasgow that probably 90% white. Was talking the UK as a whole, obviously London and other English cities it will be different. And it's pretty much all blade culture up here, so less well publicised gun killings. Class is massively important in this, yeah.

very true.

Mr. Tea
04-05-2010, 02:58 PM
Good points from both of you - London is not Britain, of course, but gang violence here does (with some justification* of course) tend to receive more meedja coverage than it does when it happens elsewhere in the country.

*not implying that it's worse when a kid in London dies than when a kid in Brum or Glasgow or anywhere else dies - I just mean that the overall numbers of serious crimes are going to be higher because of the far greater population, before you take anything else into account. And yes, in London serious gang violence is overwhelmingly committed by black youths/young men against other black youths/young men.

nomadthethird
04-05-2010, 03:45 PM
on behalf of the board, i thank you for bring it up.

we all grow up in the context of structural racism, and all of us, of whatever color or class, have largely unconscious, foundational racist notions deeply embedded in our heads, on which many other notions might be built.

we all have these, and should not take it personally when someone brings it up, making us check ourselves and in the process becoming more acutely aware of, and sensitive to, this problem which still plagues every part of the world.

Not even gonna bother Zhao with the British "reverse racism" arguments. Not, even, gonna, bother.

Multinational corporations that employ geeks ARE implicated in violence, btw, thread.

Mr. Tea
04-05-2010, 04:23 PM
Nomad, the average "geek" is probably not some kind of amoral computer science genius who earns a five-figure salary designing missing guidance systems or whatever it is you're getting at. To me, the word broadly implies someone with poor social skills and an unhealthily obsessive interest in a subject or hobby most people would regard as either arcane or boring. Such people are generally more likely to earn a modest living doing a more or less menial job or holding a very junior academic tenure - or to be unemployed altogether, perhaps still living at home - than to be raking in mega-bucks working for Haliburton.

As for "reverse racism arguments" in this thread, I'm not going to bother asking you what you're not going to bother about. You're just obsessed with this idea that all (white) British people are frothing, paranoid racists.

scottdisco
04-05-2010, 04:55 PM
Good points from both of you - London is not Britain, of course, but gang violence here does (with some justification* of course) tend to receive more meedja coverage than it does when it happens elsewhere in the country.

*not implying that it's worse when a kid in London dies than when a kid in Brum or Glasgow or anywhere else dies - I just mean that the overall numbers of serious crimes are going to be higher because of the far greater population, before you take anything else into account. And yes, in London serious gang violence is overwhelmingly committed by black youths/young men against other black youths/young men.

obviously if it was the same amount of white kids being stabbed to death in south London we would be getting far more coverage. though the issue does receive a fair bit of attention tbf, speaking in British media terms.

Grizzleb very true about gangs and class of course, Glasgow notorious for its knife culture and just to expand a wee bit still into 'our' area of northwest island Europe, Limerick in the Republic of Ireland has a reputation for gang crime arguably many more times greater than its population would perhaps suggest.
(this is before getting into internationalised organised crime gangs, etc etc, admittedly.)

a lot of street gangs in the most murderous provincial British cities (ie your Nottinghams, Mcrs, Brums) tend to be comprised of a lot of minority ethnic members, granted, although Lpool is a notable exception to that.


Multinational corporations that employ geeks ARE implicated in violence, btw, thread.

naturally. (a hearty :( at that, obviously, but, naturally, yes, you are correct here of course.)

(reading this back w my casual usages of 'notorious', 'reputation' etc, i do sound rather breathless and tabloidese :slanted: hmm )

nomadthethird
04-05-2010, 05:05 PM
Nomad, the average "geek" is probably not some kind of amoral computer science genius who earns a five-figure salary designing missing guidance systems or whatever it is you're getting at. To me, the word broadly implies someone with poor social skills and an unhealthily obsessive interest in a subject or hobby most people would regard as either arcane or boring. Such people are generally more likely to earn a modest living doing a more or less menial job or holding a very junior academic tenure - or to be unemployed altogether, perhaps still living at home - than to be raking in mega-bucks working for Haliburton.

As for "reverse racism arguments" in this thread, I'm not going to bother asking you what you're not going to bother about. You're just obsessed with this idea that all (white) British people are frothing, paranoid racists.

I'm not talking about Bill Gates. You don't have to be Bill Gates to participate in capitalism. It's a little ridiculous for anyone to throw stones when they live and work in that glass house, don't you agree? I mean, really, the idea that a word is all about capitalism in some special way that others aren't? Surely you don't agree with that?

I made a modest-to-moderate living myself once but I'd never pretend I wasn't involved in capitalistic enterprises that link up to violence on a global scale.

Anyway, I have no preconceptions about British people, I barely know any. But it does seem that any time anyone mentions or confronts casual racism on here, the "reverse racism" argument is immediately furnished as proof that the pointer-out-of-racism is *actually* the one being racist against whites and particularly white men, who also have it rough. I've seen too much of this in my own country not to recognize it for what it is.

It's just silly-- sure, there are whites who have it rough. To point out that racism exist, especially institutionalized and normative racism of the type we've seen in this thread, is not to say otherwise. It's simply to point out that racism exists. The defensive posture that inevitably results is strange-- why not just say, "oh, you know, I hadn't thought of it that way... here, things aren't really considered in those terms..." or something?

Tentative Andy
04-05-2010, 05:08 PM
Nomad, the average "geek" is probably not some kind of amoral computer science genius who earns a five-figure salary designing missing guidance systems or whatever it is you're getting at. To me, the word broadly implies someone with poor social skills and an unhealthily obsessive interest in a subject or hobby most people would regard as either arcane or boring.

Yeah for sure, good points. But (and maybe this just goes to show that the term is actully kind of flexible not so well defined) to me a geek in the strong sense of the term would also imply someone being of above average intelligence and having a willingness, even a compulsion to study and work very hard.

Based on this and personal experiences with friends and others, I'd err towards saying that the average geek might have a reasonably well-paid job (though not always a dramatically well-paid one, and not often a 'high-power' sort of position) but nevertheless be likely to feel unhappy in some aspects of the entirety of their lives.
Of course, this is all from anecdote and guesswork and I've not really seen much statistics on the question.

I also think it's worth mentioning that, even in the last 2 or 3 years, on-line culture (including gaming culture) has moved so much more into the mainstream and become woven into the fabric of many people's everyday lives. I'm not saying that this totally a positive thing, but it does perhaps mean that being interested in these kind of areas isn't as automatically socially isolating as it might once have been.

scottdisco
04-05-2010, 05:22 PM
Yeah for sure, good points. But (and maybe this just goes to show that the term is actully kind of flexible not so well defined) to me a geek in the strong sense of the term would also imply someone being of above average intelligence and having a willingness, even a compulsion to study and work very hard.

Based on this and personal experiences with friends and others, I'd err towards saying that the average geek might have a reasonably well-paid job (though not always a dramatically well-paid one, and not often a 'high-power' sort of position) but nevertheless be likely to feel unhappy in some aspects of the entirety of their lives.
Of course, this is all from anecdote and guesswork and I've not really seen much statistics on the question.

I also think it's worth mentioning that, even in the last 2 or 3 years, on-line culture (including gaming culture) has moved so much more into the mainstream and become woven into the fabric of many people's everyday lives. I'm not saying that this totally a positive thing, but it does perhaps mean that being interested in these kind of areas isn't as automatically socially isolating as it might once have been.

this is all a very nice rejoinder to some of the horribly ham-fisted and simplistic templates i was chucking around earlier w abandon i must say.

Slothrop
04-05-2010, 05:45 PM
Btw - are we still talking about the original 2 Woebot posts here, specifically
a) 'own' coming from gang culture would be more of an example of capitalism infecting everything than it coming from online gaming - I can't really see the sense of this but I'm not clear whether he means that gang culture is the capitalism doing the infecting or the thing being infected with a KKKapitalist notion of ownership and
b) gang members are - on the face of it - more threatening than spotty nerds. Which, given the qualification, seems reasonable - the fact that someone may or may not work for a morally dubious corporation doesn't give them quite the same level of immediate personal threat as the fact that they do engage in violent criminal activities...

Mr. Tea
05-05-2010, 12:29 AM
There's been a great deal of goalpost-shifting in this thread. On the first page someone mentioned "gamers", namely people who spend a lot of time playing video games, especially online multiplayer ones. To me, that brings to mind the image of someone who is probably male and probably a teenager, of no specific ethnicity or social class (globally, the most game-mad country is South Korea, remember). The male-teen image is of course a stereotype but probably not an unjustified one, I think. Then gamers became generic "nerds" or "geeks" who subsequently crystalised into grown men (implicitly assumed to be white) with master's degrees in electrical engineering building superweapons for BAE Systems or what-have-you. That's quite a jump.



Firstly, for what reason does an enthusiasm for video games make someone great at programming or impart any other skill attractive to an employer? I've completed both Half-Life games on 'hard' and I still can't program for shit. In the same way that the average boy racer isn't necessarily an expert auto engineer and that you don't need to be a freshwater ecologist to go fishing at the weekend. In fact if you're glued to a screen and bashing merry hell out of your keyboard every spare minute you get, that's not going to have a positive effect on your school or university grades, with concomittant impact on your overall chances of getting a well-paid job.
Secondly, you don't even need a PC to game online these days, as modern consoles are build with multiplayer internet gaming in mind.
Thirdly, the falling price of computer hardware and broadband means you don't have to be especially privileged (by developed-country standards) to get online, whether your main interest is gaming or whatever.

I think the words "nerd" and "geek" are so vague and mutable as to be practically useless here. Says the guy posting on a forum at 12.30 am...

grizzleb
05-05-2010, 01:22 AM
I dunno what about me pointing out that you equating gangs with black people was a bit off the mark, is me saying that you're being "reverse racist"?

I mean, the person whom the comment originated from is british, I think, so I think it's a reasonable enough point to make that his remarks didn't necessarily have racist connotations. Nothing about reverse racism in anything I've said...

zhao
05-05-2010, 08:51 AM
Zhao, dunno if this is the same where you are, but in Britain anti-Chinese and anit-Japanese racism is still tolerated where anti-Afro-Caribbean or anti-Indian/Pakistani racism wouldn't be. It's fucked up...:o


http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc30/bobotronic/random%20shit/chinky0.jpg
http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc30/bobotronic/random%20shit/chinky1.jpg
http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc30/bobotronic/random%20shit/chinky2.jpg
http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc30/bobotronic/random%20shit/chinky3.jpg

scottdisco
05-05-2010, 09:37 AM
There's been a great deal of goalpost-shifting in this thread. On the first page someone mentioned "gamers", namely people who spend a lot of time playing video games, especially online multiplayer ones. To me, that brings to mind the image of someone who is probably male and probably a teenager, of no specific ethnicity or social class (globally, the most game-mad country is South Korea, remember). The male-teen image is of course a stereotype but probably not an unjustified one, I think. Then gamers became generic "nerds" or "geeks" who subsequently crystalised into grown men (implicitly assumed to be white) with master's degrees in electrical engineering building superweapons for BAE Systems or what-have-you. That's quite a jump.

tbf, i know Nomad's been busy on this thread, but i don't quite see it like that myself. i think the crucial leap in the thread from this pov occured from page 1 onward when she asked WOEBOT about gangs/geeks, and perhaps didn't 'get' that WOEBOT might well have understood (though i know i shouldn't claim to speak on his behalf) very well the equally capital-infused, macho-in-different-ways (if you like) basis of gangs and computer gaming (to repeat my clumsy phrasing from earlier), but was purely more uneasy because of the inherent personal violence in, say, a drug dealer's daily trade, which you obviously can't say of an online multiplayer gamer.

then all tangential hell broke lose from around page 3 onward, granted (including Nomad getting more broad brush; and, for the record, i thought her post on page 4 where she addressed why she appeared to conflate gangs w non-white people in an earlier post was good), which is, of course, the beauty of this board and generally speaking to be expected on any thread.
the stuff about racism was certainly interesting if hardly what WOEBOT set out to discuss!

it's not like generally if a thread moves off the original point it's normally a problem; heck, most everything on Politics descends into the unique evil of Israel sooner or later ;)

Zhao: that was published in 2000?
:mad:

oh but it's the great Alan Moore so he's probably making some realllllly clever point. oh well done Alan Moore.

prick.

droid
05-05-2010, 10:52 AM
Er... its a pisstake, and an appallingly ironic example for Zhao to pick. Whoever wrote those notes is a cretin. Moore probably would have done it with a black character but I imagine the US publishers wouldn't let him.

When you see someone re-enact a minstrel show as part of a drama, or parody 50's racism on TV does that make them a prick too?

scottdisco
05-05-2010, 10:58 AM
Er... its a pisstake, and an appallingly ironic example for Zhao to pick. Whoever wrote those notes is a cretin. Moore probably would have done it with a black character but I imagine the US publishers wouldn't let him.

When you see someone re-enact a minstrel show as part of a drama, or parody 50's racism on TV does that make them a prick too?

i apologise Droid.

(i could see it was a pisstake, yes. even i wouldn't go around calling Alan Moore a racist out-and-out. it just made me very uneasy and caught me at the wrong mo.)

droid
05-05-2010, 11:03 AM
Sorry Scott. :) I should really be aiming my vitriol at Zhao. Im not claiming any grand profound meaning in that strip, but he has been parodying old comic and cartoon conventions for years, and inserting them as mini-pieces into his larger works... presumably (partly at least) to highlight their failings.

BTW, this is where the name came from I think. Blyton:

http://www.enidblytonsociety.co.uk/author/illustrations/520wide+9486742.jpg

Mr. Tea
05-05-2010, 11:11 AM
I heard Chris Morris actually thinks child abuse is totally hilarious in and of itself...

scottdisco
05-05-2010, 11:20 AM
I heard Chris Morris actually thinks child abuse is totally hilarious in and of itself...

now now :o

obviously whilst i'm grateful to Droid for rightly pulling me up over inappropriate language and totally misdirected outrage, that Moore could 'get away' w it (but presumably not w say a black character) certainly does buttress something Zhao said, tbf.

('Chinky' from Blyton's old stories is truth, tbf, yep. mind, wasn't there a 'Nigger' or something in some old British children's literature series, that was the name of a dog or something?)

just one small example, but Abercrombie and Fitch did relent on their Wong tee shirts eight years ago or so, after pressure from various Asian-American groups IIRC, but that someone at A & F thought it would be a winner to put it out in the first place must say something

http://www.fortunecookiechronicles.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/twowongscanmakeitwhite.jpg

zhao
05-05-2010, 11:25 AM
Er... its a pisstake, and an appallingly ironic example for Zhao to pick. Whoever wrote those notes is a cretin. Moore probably would have done it with a black character but I imagine the US publishers wouldn't let him.

When you see someone re-enact a minstrel show as part of a drama, or parody 50's racism on TV does that make them a prick too?

do you think re-enacting a minstrel show without context, without obvious, apparent irony, but with all the racism, is OK to be broadcast on children's hour television?

i wrote those notes. i was offended by this.

please tell me more about how i am over reacting to artistic irony, Caucasian person.

woops
05-05-2010, 11:28 AM
Er... its a pisstake, and an appallingly ironic example for Zhao to pick. Whoever wrote those notes is a cretin.

Itself a huge slur on people with hyperthyroidism.
Speaking of which, how can people get away with saying such and such is a 'travesty', in this day and age?
I think it's time for cross dressers to get even crosser!

massrock
05-05-2010, 11:28 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgePEO7GUtE&feature=youtube_gdata

Scott was askin about the dog. I guess this is supposedly a historical detail.

zhao
05-05-2010, 11:29 AM
Sorry Scott. :) I should really be aiming my vitriol at Zhao. Im not claiming any grand profound meaning in that strip, but he has been parodying old comic and cartoon conventions for years, and inserting them as mini-pieces into his larger works... presumably (partly at least) to highlight their failings.

not everyone knows that he has been parodying old comics for years. there is nothing in this story which gives itself away as parody.

to anyone not familiar with the trajectory of his work, just picking it up, it is simply a period piece done in an old style.

please Droid, tell me that i am wrong to find this offensive.

zhao
05-05-2010, 11:35 AM
NO, Droid.

the Australian black-face video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DhNJsU2N6Q) Harry Connick Jr. slammed a while back was exactly what you describe: reenactment of a minstrel show -- ironic representation of racist entertainment from the past. and much much more obviously ironic than this.

do you think Harry Connick Jr. was over reacting?? do you think he is a "cretin" for speaking out against it???


Host Daryl Somers apologized to Connick at the end of the live show.

"I know that to your countrymen, that's an insult to have a blackface routine like that on the show, so I do apologize to you," Somers said.

Connick said he would not have appeared on the show if he'd known about the skit.

"I just want to say, on behalf of my country, I know it was done humorously, but we've spent so much time trying to not make black people look like buffoons, that when we see something like that we take it really to heart," he told Somers after his apology.
huffington post (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/10/08/harry-connick-jr-slams-au_n_313613.html)

Eagerly anticipating your answer, Droid.

droid
05-05-2010, 11:45 AM
do you think re-enacting a minstrel show without context, without obvious, apparent irony, but with all the racism, is OK to be broadcast on children's hour television?

i wrote those notes. i was offended by this.

please tell me more about how i am over reacting to artistic irony, Caucasian person.

But there is context, there is context throughout Moore's works, Swamp Thing, V, Miracleman (with racist 50's comic book portrayals of the black superhero 'Big Ben' contrasted with the 'real' character). There's a context in the story itself - in its placement and contrast as a minor part of a massive spiritual, sexual and feminist epic.

The irony is obvious - the whole exercise is an attempt to expose and explore the innocence and the offensiveness of 19th/20th century comics. Its a recurring theme in his work. And might I add that Moore has gone to great pains to challenge racism in his work. Years ahead of anyone else in the field.

Its an offensive portrayal of Chinese people - that exactly the point. Have you actually read Promethea or are you still having trouble understanding 'From hell'?


Caucasian person

Twat.

droid
05-05-2010, 11:46 AM
not everyone knows that he has been parodying old comics for years. there is nothing in this story which gives itself away as parody.

to anyone not familiar with the trajectory of his work, just picking it up, it is simply a period piece done in an old style.


How about you educate yourself a bit more before coming up with these ridiculous examples?

zhao
05-05-2010, 11:53 AM
please give me your thoughts on the Australian Jackson 5 skit and Harry Conick Jr. Droid.

reeltoreel
05-05-2010, 12:14 PM
That blackface skit wasn't ironic though, that's the thing.

Those guys were playing it pretty straight.

Less "this is how we used to do things and it's shameful" a la Moore, and more "aren't black people funny? ha ha ha!" sort of thing...

Actually, that's what's really worrying.

baboon2004
05-05-2010, 12:14 PM
Er... its a pisstake, and an appallingly ironic example for Zhao to pick. Whoever wrote those notes is a cretin. Moore probably would have done it with a black character but I imagine the US publishers wouldn't let him.

When you see someone re-enact a minstrel show as part of a drama, or parody 50's racism on TV does that make them a prick too?

But 'irony' is the way lots of people get around saying overtly fascist things in this day and age,by allegedly 'taking the piss' out of racists. "Oh, I'm doing it in a silly voice, so I didn't really say 'Paki'. In fact I was taking the piss out of racism " etc.

I have lots of experience of having to listen to this shit, and it's noxious bullshit. All part of this 'oh we're so post-racist' fuckery.

Is Alan Moore white, by any chance?? (I'm willing to swallow my words if I'm wrong, but) If so, has he even stopped to even think what someone who's not might think when reading his oh-so-ironic comic, and has actually, IN THIS DAY AND AGE, suffered those very same slurs?

You owe Zhao an apology for that.

"Moore probably would have done it with a black character but I imagine the US publishers wouldn't let him." - point proven.

droid
05-05-2010, 12:18 PM
OK, and then you can answer my questions. :rolleyes:

There is no context for that piece. It was not part of a text, it was an isolated example. Was it even ironic?

That Australian talent show has not been involved in a decades long project parodying racist and offensive attitudes in Western comics culture. It is not well known for its pioneering work in challenging racism in its field.

Moore has come out quite clearly in stating his motives for this project, for example - the Black Dossier and the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen:


...We also found out that Frank Richards, the gambling addict who wrote the Billy Bunter schoolboy books, had gotten into an ill-advised public spat with George Orwell when Orwell had written a critique of the Billy Bunter books saying they were racist, imperialistic, treated all foreigners and minorities as figures of fun, and made all these other fairly accurate observations about the Billy Bunter books.

To which Richards ill-advisedly responded that Mr. Orwell was being terribly unfair about his harmless schoolboy frolics, and as for treating foreigners as figures of fun, well, they are. Which was not the best reply to make to someone like George Orwell. In The Black Dossier, we were able to comment upon all these things. And, sometimes The League will, although it's set in a fantasy world, making some point that actually seems quite relevant to the world we're in at present...

If you want to say that they are equivalent, good for you.

I suggest you pick better targets, because holding up the work of a queer anti-establishment hippie whose life work involves exposing social, cultural and historical stereotypes and contrasting 'reality' and the 'fictional' world of comics just makes it seem like you dont know what you're talking about.

droid
05-05-2010, 12:22 PM
But 'irony' is the way lots of people get around saying overtly fascist things in this day and age,by allegedly 'taking the piss' out of racists. "Oh, I'm doing it in a silly voice, so I didn't really say 'Paki'. In fact I was taking the piss out of racism " etc.

I have lots of experience of having to listen to this shit, and it's noxious bullshit. All part of this 'oh we're so post-racist' fuckery.

Is Alan Moore white, by any chance?? (I'm willing to swallow my words if I'm wrong, but) If so, has he even stopped to even think what someone who's not might think when reading his oh-so-ironic comic, and has actually, IN THIS DAY AND AGE, suffered those very same slurs?

You owe Zhao an apology for that.

"Moore probably would have done it with a black character but I imagine the US publishers wouldn't let him." - point proven.

With all due respect Baboon, this is bullshit. I suggest you read the piece in question. Moore is not a closet racist using irony to disguise his bigotry. Please read my posts above.

Yes, Moore probably (and has) would have used a black character... all this may prove (supposition on my part) is that a US publisher might be more sensitive to racial issues concerning blacks. it may also just be Moore attempting to place this piece in a particular cultural space - knowing him its probably an exact parody (see Blyton illustration above).

baboon2004
05-05-2010, 12:22 PM
Droid, what colour skin do you have? I ask only because this is deeply relevant here. If you are white (or black or any other race but East Asian, in fact), and telling someone of Chinese extraction they shouldn't be offended by reading that comic (why should anyone need to have red his entire oeuvre?), you're being quite offensive.

Queer anti-establishment hippies can still be ironic racists. Ffs.

baboon2004
05-05-2010, 12:23 PM
With all due respect Baboon, this is bullshit. I suggest you read the piece in question. Moore is not a closet racist using irony to disguise his bigotry. Please read my posts above.

Yes, Moore probably (and has) would have used a black character... all this may prove (supposition on my part) is that a US publisher might be more sensitive to racial issues concerning blacks. it may also just be Moore attempting to place this piece in a particular cultural space - knowing him its probably an exact parody (see Blyton illustration above).

Ok, will read your posts, but you're wrong. Sorry. It's not a matter of reading the piece in question. It's a matter of people (of which I am one) telling other people, who have experienced racism of the type discussed here, what they should and shouldn't be offended by. Usually (and obv i don't know your racial background,so have no idea what it is in this situation) it's white people telling non-white people they shouldn't be offended 'because it's just ironic/a joke'.

If Zhao was offended, he has a right to be.

droid
05-05-2010, 12:24 PM
That blackface skit wasn't ironic though, that's the thing.

Those guys were playing it pretty straight.

Less "this is how we used to do things and it's shameful" a la Moore, and more "aren't black people funny? ha ha ha!" sort of thing...

Actually, that's what's really worrying.

^^^ This.

Its almost as if Zhao came across those scans online and took them completely out of context.

Is that what happened here? I don't see how else these comparison could be made in all seriousness.

droid
05-05-2010, 12:28 PM
Droid, what colour skin do you have? I ask only because this is deeply relevant here. If you are white (or black or any other race but East Asian, in fact), and telling someone of Chinese extraction they shouldn't be offended by reading that comic (why should anyone need to have red his entire oeuvre?), you're being quite offensive.

Queer anti-establishment hippies can still be ironic racists. Ffs.

Im not telling him he shouldnt be offended. He can offended by whatever he wants.

Im explaining the purpose of the work, what its about and what the history is. Zhao has taken it COMPLETELY out of context.

I could take any number of skits by black comedians and take them out of context and they would be offensive. I could take Chinese jokes about Chinese people and take them out of context and they could be deeply offensive.

zhao
05-05-2010, 12:29 PM
How about you educate yourself a bit more before coming up with these ridiculous examples?

yes, please tell me more about how if i was more educated, and not quite so ignorant, that i would get the artistic irony.

and please tell me more about how my feelings are invalid as a person of color, white dude.

droid
05-05-2010, 12:29 PM
Ok, will read your posts, but you're wrong. Sorry. It's not a matter of reading the piece in question. It's a matter of people (of which I am one) telling other people, who have experienced racism of the type discussed here, what they should and shouldn't be offended by. Usually (and obv i don't know your racial background,so have no idea what it is in this situation) it's white people telling non-white people they shouldn't be offended 'because it's just ironic/a joke'.



Jesus Christ. Thats not what is being said. Im saying that IT IS OFFENSIVE, and that is the whole purpose of it. For the love of god.

droid
05-05-2010, 12:30 PM
yes, please tell me more about how if i was more educated, and not quite so ignorant, that i would get the artistic irony.

and please tell me more about how my feelings are invalid as a person of color, white dude.

Fuck you prick.

Please go back and tell the kids in school who used to call me CHINK that I'm only 1/8 asian.

zhao
05-05-2010, 12:33 PM
1. i am not talking about Alan Moore's body of work since 1962, nor am i interested. i am looking at THIS PARTICULAR STORY, which is not even written by him.


That blackface skit wasn't ironic though, that's the thing.

Those guys were playing it pretty straight.

Less "this is how we used to do things and it's shameful" a la Moore, and more "aren't black people funny? ha ha ha!" sort of thing...

Actually, that's what's really worrying.

nope.

2. "this is how we used to do things and it's shameful" -- this message is most CERTAINLY NOT apparent, or even exists at all, in the story.

3. to anyone who happens upon the story, the message they would get is "aren't Chinese people funny? ha ha ha!"

baboon2004
05-05-2010, 12:37 PM
Jesus Christ. Thats not what is being said. Im saying that IT IS OFFENSIVE, and that is the whole purpose of it. For the love of god.

But there's nothing clever/intelligent about what he's done. if the point is 'look how we used to be racists', then, as you've said yourself from your own experience, then that point is dangerous in itself, precisely because such offensiveness is there in the real, contemporary world, and it would be far more fruitful/artistic to expose THAT, as it is far more insidious and far more difficult to properly satirise than this more blatant, 'archaic' fascism. This is the easy, unhelpful option.

zhao
05-05-2010, 12:37 PM
Fuck you prick.

Please go back and tell the kids in school who used to call me CHINK that I'm only 1/8 asian.

aha. the last refuge of those trying to defend indefensible positions regarding racism: but, but i am fractionally non-white!

do you realize that is exactly the same thing as "i have black friends"?

massrock
05-05-2010, 12:38 PM
3. to anyone who happens upon the story, the message they would get is "aren't Chinese people funny? ha ha ha!"
I think my reaction would be "gosh that's really unpleasant, surely it can't be for real?", even without knowing the context.

Mr. Tea
05-05-2010, 12:39 PM
now now :o

Sorry, that was a gratuitously shit-stirring post. My bad.

massrock
05-05-2010, 12:40 PM
Itself a huge slur on people with hyperthyroidism.
Speaking of which, how can people get away with saying such and such is a 'travesty', in this day and age?
I think it's time for cross dressers to get even crosser!
Fair points. Though in the case of 'cross dressers' it would be the word transvestite that's insulting, no?

baboon2004
05-05-2010, 12:41 PM
aha. the last refuge of those trying to defend indefensible positions regarding racism: but, but i am fractionally non-white!

do you realize that is exactly the same thing as "i have black friends"?

that's not fair though - it's not the same thing, obv.

droid
05-05-2010, 12:42 PM
aha. the last refuge of those trying to defend indefensible positions regarding racism: but, but i am fractionally non-white!

do you realize that is exactly the same thing as "i have black friends"?

No its not. From about the age of 4 to the age of 15 years CHINK was my nickname because of the shape of my eyes. Its not particularly obvious IMO but in a racially homogeneous society it seemed it stood out. The nurses in hospital made similar jokes about my son when he was born.

Im glad to see youre mocking this fact... Im not completely Asian so I cant be racially slurred? :rolleyes:

Please go fuck yourself Zhao. Im finished with this.

Youve turned into a really nasty piece of work mate...

reeltoreel
05-05-2010, 12:43 PM
nope.

2. "this is how we used to do things and it's shameful" -- this message is most CERTAINLY NOT apparent, or even exists at all, in the story.

3. to anyone who happens upon the story, the message they would get is "aren't Chinese people funny? ha ha ha!"


Well, yes. That message doesn't exist in that piece. But the story you posted serves a function within a much wider narrative which carries the opposite message.

It's been a long time since I read Promethea, so I could be wrong.

I just think you're drawing a long bow when you compare a skit on a national television show in a country with a continuing system of institutional racism with a piece taken from the work of someone who has spent the better part of their career working to break down stereotypes of all kinds.

zhao
05-05-2010, 12:46 PM
I think my reaction would be "gosh that's really unpleasant, surely it can't be for real?", even without knowing the context.

well that was mine too at first. but then i found absolutely nothing which said that it wasn't for real.

and to cite Alan Moore's history as a leftist activist has nothing to do with the meaning and impact of this story, which again is not even written by him.

people who think they are against racism can, and do all the time, entertain racist notions, and espouse racist views. especially toward certain groups, which are seen as some how more than OK to discriminate against than others. which is what this conversation was originally about.

baboon2004
05-05-2010, 12:47 PM
(@reel) How is that particular example helping to 'break down' stereotypes though? From what people have been saying, apparently it's 'we used to do this, but now we don't. no, not at all', which is a silly thing to do. Everyone knows what is written is offensive - what is the author trying to prove by repeating racial slurs?

massrock
05-05-2010, 12:54 PM
(@reel) How is that particular example helping to 'break down' stereotypes though? From what people have been saying, apparently it's 'we used to do this, but now we don't. no, not at all', which is a silly thing to do. Everyone knows what is written is offensive - what is the author trying to prove by repeating racial slurs?
Isn't it saying, don't forget how disgusting this is?

Slothrop
05-05-2010, 12:55 PM
Maybe it's because I grew up with Noddy, Enid Blyton, Rupert Bear, Tintin etc, but I can't imagine anyone coming to that comic and not realizing that it's a deliberate and self conscious parody / critique of older childrens stories and comics.

Whether it does anything interesting or insightful with that idea or whether it's just 'hey look everyone, people used to be really racist omg wtf lol' I don't know because I haven't read the comic.

reeltoreel
05-05-2010, 01:00 PM
(@reel) How is that particular example helping to 'break down' stereotypes though? From what people have been saying, apparently it's 'we used to do this, but now we don't. no, not at all', which is a silly thing to do. Everyone knows what is written is offensive - what is the author trying to prove by repeating racial slurs?

Within the narrative of the series, I think it's do with Promethea being the source of imaginative inspiration and the different forms this inspiration takes, as well as the effects it has, at different points in history. This story (the series of frames that Zhao posted) is a negative product of that. Again, it's been a while since I've read the book and I don't have a copy to hand, but I'm fairly sure that's it.

It's not something I would do myself, and I certainly don't think it should be encouraged. It's a device I find extremely distasteful, but that visceral distaste is sort of the idea.

I just wanted to say that there are much better targets for anti-racist invective than Alan Moore.

baboon2004
05-05-2010, 01:03 PM
Within the narrative of the series, I think it's do with Promethea being the source of imaginative inspiration and the different forms this inspiration takes, as well as the effects it has, at different points in history. This story (the series of frames that Zhao posted) is a negative product of that. Again, it's been a while since I've read the book and I don;t have a copy to hand, but I'm fairly sure that's it.

It's not something I would do myself, and I certainly don't think it should be encouraged. It's a device I find extremely distasteful, but that visceral distaste is sort of the idea.

I just wanted to say that there are much better targets for anti-racist invective than Alan Moore.

fair enough. but as you say, don't think it could be encouraged.

baboon2004
05-05-2010, 01:05 PM
Isn't it saying, don't forget how disgusting this is?

but it still happens now. that was my point - pretending it's all 'done and dusted' is part of the problem. i'd have infinitely more respect for the guy if he portrayed that - that would be valuable.

massrock
05-05-2010, 01:12 PM
but it still happens now.
So that would be why it's still worth saying?

Anyway I think reeltoreel gives a bit more context above. I've not read this but I've read enough Alan Moore (though this is Steve Moore) to know there is no way it's some puerile smirking at how dodgy comics used to be or something.

massrock
05-05-2010, 01:14 PM
And seriously, I shouldn't have to be typing this but I can't believe people here actually seem to be implying that art shouldn't explore difficult themes. Of course things like that are going to draw accusations of complicity, but maybe that's part of the point?

droid
05-05-2010, 01:16 PM
but it still happens now. that was my point - pretending it's all 'done and dusted' is part of the problem. i'd have infinitely more respect for the guy if he portrayed that - that would be valuable.

Its a deliberate pisstake of Winston McKay and 'Nemo in slumberland'. 'Chinky' is analogous to 'Jungle Imp'. Its dated 1905 and has a fictional publication history and author.

Its an addendum to the Promethea books (5 volumes), and is part of a conceit where Moore portrays his characters in the manner in which they would have been portrayed at the time - like using Black and white footage for old shots in a new documentary. In an issue of Tomorrows stories (IIRC) the rationalisation for the racist portrayal is revealed - Margie's childishness (and the childishness of the medium). When she (literally) outgrows the panels the stereotypical portayal of 'Chinky' vanishes and he becomes a 'real' character. It is a comment on the growth of the medium, on the portrayal of race in comics, on the 'innocence' of earlier eras) all of which have parallels to the main narrative which is extremely symbolic and full of references.

Can I again suggest that you read the work in question before indulging in kneejerk reaction?

BTW Baboon, since you brought up the topic of race, do you agree with Zhao that I'm not Asian enough to be upset when people call me chink?

zhao
05-05-2010, 01:18 PM
Fuck you prick.



Please go fuck yourself Zhao.


Youve turned into a really nasty piece of work mate...

so it is I who has turned into a "nasty piece of work"... says the man spraying profanities and spittle all over the room.

riiiiight....

please enlighten: exactly how, and to whom, have i been a prick to?

to your favorite comic writer? by questioning the integrity of his publishing house? by not understanding the irony, and appreciating the finesse of this anti-racist story which only "seems" racist to the uneducated, ignorant, and dense?

if so, guilty as charged. for that is exactly what i have done.

and what about you, sir?

what if i am someone who did not know who Alan Moore is before now, who found this story racist and perpetuating racist stereotypes?

what you have done is call me a string of names such as "cretin", "uneducated", "prick", infer that i am stupid ("are you still trying to understand From Hell?") ---- all in an attempt to shut down discussion, and silence the non-white who cries racism.

yes, Droid, you are forever the righteous and intelligent one, and i am a dumb nasty piece of work...

plain for anyone to see, really.

baboon2004
05-05-2010, 01:20 PM
BTW Baboon, since you brought up the topic of race, do you agree with Zhao that I'm not Asian enough to be upset when people call me chink?

Dude, last post, page before this - could I suggest that YOU read previous posts?

droid
05-05-2010, 01:21 PM
all in an attempt to shut down discussion, and silence the non-white who cries racism.


This kind of thing is why you deserve the ad hominems TBH...

Cya.

nomadthethird
05-05-2010, 01:23 PM
do you think re-enacting a minstrel show without context, without obvious, apparent irony, but with all the racism, is OK to be broadcast on children's hour television?

i wrote those notes. i was offended by this.

please tell me more about how i am over reacting to artistic irony, Caucasian person.

Zhao, don't bother, seriously.

You'll just get upset, and privilege will still be blind.

nomadthethird
05-05-2010, 01:24 PM
No its not. From about the age of 4 to the age of 15 years CHINK was my nickname because of the shape of my eyes. Its not particularly obvious IMO but in a racially homogeneous society it seemed it stood out. The nurses in hospital made similar jokes about my son when he was born.

Im glad to see youre mocking this fact... Im not completely Asian so I cant be racially slurred? :rolleyes:

Please go fuck yourself Zhao. Im finished with this.

Youve turned into a really nasty piece of work mate...

Uhh how does the fact that someone mistook you for Asian mean anything in this thread?

droid
05-05-2010, 01:24 PM
Dude, last post, page before this - could I suggest that YOU read previous posts?

I did read it, you said that 'its not exactly' the same thing as saying your friend is black... so you don't exactly agree with Zhao that its just an excuse for racism?

Am I to take it then that you agree that I'm not Asian enough to have been called 'chink' for ten years?

nomadthethird
05-05-2010, 01:26 PM
aha. the last refuge of those trying to defend indefensible positions regarding racism: but, but i am fractionally non-white!

do you realize that is exactly the same thing as "i have black friends"?

I've heard this same shit about once a day every day from the anti-immigration lobbyists.

But but... I married a woman who was 1/24 Mexican! Therefore I can't be racist.

massrock
05-05-2010, 01:27 PM
Things is though, isn't the real problem with attitudes like those parodied in this comic strip not so much that some might feel personally offended by them but rather that there is an audience out there who would take it and the implicit attitudes at face value? And isn't that where the context of a particular work is relevant? I.e. who would that supposed audience be for this book?

Slothrop
05-05-2010, 01:28 PM
what you have done is call me a string of names such as "cretin", "uneducated", "prick", infer that i am stupid ("are you still trying to understand From Hell?") ---- all in an attempt to shut down discussion, and silence the non-white who cries racism.

Yeah, I noticed how Droid keeps denying the existence of racism against people of asian descent. Like the bit where he says that he's experienced it himself.

I'm sure it would be easy - and probably instructive - to find a whole bunch examples of straight up prejudice, ignorance, and racism from modern popular culture.

It's just that that particular comic is a bad example.

nomadthethird
05-05-2010, 01:29 PM
That blackface skit wasn't ironic though, that's the thing.

Those guys were playing it pretty straight.


Does it matter?

People were still getting lynched when blackface was ok, ffs.

Read a goddamn history book.

scottdisco
05-05-2010, 01:29 PM
I heard Chris Morris actually thinks child abuse is totally hilarious in and of itself...


now now :o


Sorry, that was a gratuitously shit-stirring post. My bad.

actually Tea, it certainly wasn't. it made a point and was funny, so you were bang OTM w that observation.


but that visceral distaste is sort of the idea.

very well put. (it certainly worked on me; look at my reaction a few pages ago.)

Slothrop
05-05-2010, 01:30 PM
I've heard this same shit about once a day every day from the anti-immigration lobbyists.

But but... I married a woman who was 1/24 Mexican! Therefore I can't be racist.

He's not saying "therefore I can't be racist". He's saying "I'm not denying the existence of racism in modern society (because in fact I've experienced it myself)."

If you can't see the difference then you must be trying quite hard...

nomadthethird
05-05-2010, 01:32 PM
Right... so as long as something "works", by which we mean it serves to evoke "visceral distaste" in white folk about racism-past, it's ok.

Basically, if it's instructive for the white folk, anything goes.

Iron-clad logic there.

baboon2004
05-05-2010, 01:32 PM
I did read it, you said that 'its not exactly' the same thing as saying your friend is black... so you don't exactly agree with Zhao that its just an excuse for racism?

Am I to take it then that you agree that I'm not Asian enough to have been called 'chink' for ten years?

i think you have the entire right to be upset, 100 per cent, about the racism you suffered - sorry if my previous post wasn't clear. But please don't misquote: 'it's not the same thing, obv' (what I said) and 'it's not exactly the same thing' (what i didn't say) are entirely different.

On a complete tangent, my Mum was quite frequently asked if she was Chinese cos of the shape of her eyes too, when she was younger in 70s England. Made me think about how little I know of her side of the family (cos she never tells me) - it's quite possible that I could have a Chinese ancestor somewhere along the line...

Slothrop
05-05-2010, 01:33 PM
Does it matter?

People were still getting lynched when blackface was ok, ffs.

Read a goddamn history book.

What on earth is your point? NOONE said that the blackface routine was in any way acceptable.

nomadthethird
05-05-2010, 01:33 PM
He's not saying "therefore I can't be racist". He's saying "I'm not denying the existence of racism in modern society (because in fact I've experienced it myself)."

If you can't see the difference then you must be trying quite hard...

Umm... that's not what I was addressing. What I was addressing was his jump to the fact that he was in fact distantly Asian, which was supposed to prove that he couldn't possibly be wrong about the racist implications of a cartoon. That's the same thing. Sometimes the lobbyists claim that their great, great, great grandfather was Mexican instead. Or that their best friend is black. Or queer. Or whatnot.

I said wife because it's funnier that way.

And I think anyone who tries to defend those cartoons is racist. I don't care how many times someone mistook them for Asian.

nomadthethird
05-05-2010, 01:35 PM
What on earth is your point? NOONE said that the blackface routine was in any way acceptable.

Ummm...

Does it matter whether the men in that video played blackface "straight" or not? It's racist either way. Mostly because of the very serious historical implications of blackface.

That's my point.

Slothrop
05-05-2010, 01:36 PM
Umm... that's the same thing.

What, not denying the existence of racism in modern society is the same thing as being racist?

zhao
05-05-2010, 01:38 PM
Yeah, I noticed how Droid keeps denying the existence of racism

had no intention of bringing this up but since you mention it:

it has certainly happened before. this is the same man who insist that the world view of the average person on the street, where ever it may be, is not influenced by Western-centric and Euro-centric attitudes, and that all are well aware of the Hasidic and Afrian origins of European classical civilization.

reeltoreel
05-05-2010, 01:38 PM
Does it matter?

People were still getting lynched when blackface was ok, ffs.

Read a goddamn history book.

No, it doesn't matter, not at all. The use of racist tropes for comedy value is absolutely despicable, at all times.

I just wanted to separate essentially overt, open racism of the kind displayed on that Today Show episode from the racism that Zhao was pointing out with his post, which I thought was of a different kind. It seemed to be a distinction worth making and I'm sorry it wasn't clear.

zhao
05-05-2010, 01:39 PM
What, not denying the existence of racism in modern society is the same thing as being racist?

erase the first "not" and you are pretty close.

denying the existence of racism in modern society is certainly in the same ball park as being racist.

nomadthethird
05-05-2010, 01:40 PM
What, not denying the existence of racism in modern society is the same thing as being racist?

No, it's already been pointed out what was racist in this thread.

Jumping to the "but I've been called a chink!" defense is fucking ridiculous.

Any American has seen all this before, a thousand times.

This entire thread reads like it's excerpted from the fucking Strom Thurmond Handbook to Race Relations and Rhetoric.

scottdisco
05-05-2010, 01:44 PM
Right... so as long as something "works", by which we mean it serves to evoke "visceral distaste" in white folk about racism-past, it's ok.

Basically, if it's instructive for the white folk, anything goes.

Iron-clad logic there.

OK OK, some very careless phrasing from moi (to say the least).

matt b
05-05-2010, 01:46 PM
This entire thread reads like it's excerpted from the fucking Strom Thurmond Handbook to Race Relations and Rhetoric.

Yep, your assumption that gangster= black on page one was despicable.

nomadthethird
05-05-2010, 01:47 PM
Hey Zhao, you think the word "yo" is scary because of capitalism and gangs, etc.?

I mean, I know white men kill the majority of people who are killed in this country everyday (especially when it comes to women getting killed-- mostly whites doing that), but I should probably still consider gangs like the biggest threat to Whitey that ever existed, right?

Yeah. I thought so, too. :rolleyes:

nomadthethird
05-05-2010, 01:50 PM
Yep, your assumption that gangster= black on page one was despicable.

Is this some kind of joke? Like seriously. It must be a joke. I just can't imagine that a person would say this with a straight face...except maybe Rush Limbaugh, who says it constantly.

This is the (what is it now? third, fourth?) "reverse racism" argument I've seen here and it won't and never will wash.

The vast majority of gang members ARE black, especially in the U.S. Acknowledging this is in no way racist, because economic and social inequity is what drives minorities into a life of crime. It is, in fact, racist to try to elide this fact, as if urban crime is an equal opportunity employer. It isn't.

matt b
05-05-2010, 01:56 PM
Is this some kind of joke? Like seriously. It must be a joke. I just can't imagine that a person would say this with a straight face...except maybe Rush Limbaugh, who says it constantly.

This is the (what is it now? third, fourth?) "reverse racism" argument I've seen here and it won't and never will wash.

The vast majority of gang members ARE black, especially in the U.S. Acknowledging this is in no way racist, because economic and social inequity is what drives minorities into a life of crime. It is, in fact, racist to try to elide this fact, as if urban crime is an equal opportunity employer. It isn't.

:rolleyes:
projecting onto woebot that when he sees the word 'gangs' he is visualising black Americans is an assumption no?

That response has nothing to do with the facts of gang membership or their ethnic make up.

The same regarding the reaction to the Moore comic- I would suggest reading it before shouting 'racist'. a lot.

nomadthethird
05-05-2010, 01:56 PM
Acknowledging that urban violence is by and large a problem of minorities and specifically blacks is in no way tantamount to claiming that "all black men are violent thugs".

If that's what you're on about.

nomadthethird
05-05-2010, 01:57 PM
:rolleyes:
projecting onto woebot that when he sees the word 'gangs' he is visualising black Americans is an assumption no?

That response has nothing to do with the facts of gang membership or their ethnic make up.

The same regarding the reaction to the Moore comic- I would suggest reading it before shouting 'racist'. a lot.

I did read it.

Aren't you the one who was quoting fucking Durkheim on social constructedness in the other thread?

You're really letting your side down, brother.

matt b
05-05-2010, 01:57 PM
If that's what you're on about.

no.

re-read my post and re-read page 1 of this thread.

matt b
05-05-2010, 01:58 PM
Aren't you the one who was quoting fucking Durkheim on social constructedness in the other thread?.

no


You're really letting your side down, brother.

what's 'my side' nomad? come on, you are better than this...

droid
05-05-2010, 02:01 PM
i think you have the entire right to be upset, 100 per cent, about the racism you suffered - sorry if my previous post wasn't clear. But please don't misquote: 'it's not the same thing, obv' (what I said) and 'it's not exactly the same thing' (what i didn't say) are entirely different.

On a complete tangent, my Mum was quite frequently asked if she was Chinese cos of the shape of her eyes too, when she was younger in 70s England. Made me think about how little I know of her side of the family (cos she never tells me) - it's quite possible that I could have a Chinese ancestor somewhere along the line...

Sorry Baboon, didn't mean to misquote you. My great grandmother was Chinese or Japanese, Ive never been able to find out for sure. Kind of a family secret I think. My little brother used to get bullied a lot too as he has even more pronounced Asian features. Kinda stopped for me about the age of 15, but people still ask me 'where I'm from' occasionally. I imagine my son will get the same.

I don't think I've ever mentioned this to anyone besides close friends before now, but race doesn't usually get brought up as a validation of opinion. Is there an ID card I can get for these kinda threads in future? Maybe Nomad could help with the racial classification? 'Looks more Asian than he is' or 'octachink' or something. :)

baboon2004
05-05-2010, 02:09 PM
Sorry Baboon, didn't mean to misquote you. My great grandmother was Chinese or Japanese, Ive never been able to find out for sure. Kind of a family secret I think. My little brother used to get bullied a lot too as he has even more pronounced Asian features. Kinda stopped for me about the age of 15, but people still ask me 'where I'm from' occasionally. I imagine my son will get the same.

I don't think I've ever mentioned this to anyone besides close friends before now, but race doesn't usually get brought up as a validation of opinion. Is there an ID card I can get for these kinda threads in future? Maybe Nomad could help with the racial classification? 'Looks more Asian than he is' or 'octachink' or something. :)

No worries. Yeah, family secrets are a peculiar thing, aren't they - was talking about that at length, and their long-lasting impact on people (in so many diffrent ways, obv depending upon secret in question), just yesterday. I'd love for there to be a service to know more about them, without having to rely upon your parents' skewed version....

Is there no way of getting anyone in your family to talk about the subject? A bit annoying if not, if only for pure curiosity.

grizzleb
05-05-2010, 02:11 PM
My grandparents on my dad's side used to go to religious groups to speak in toungues and shit. That freaked me right out when I heard that.

droid
05-05-2010, 02:15 PM
No worries. Yeah, family secrets are a peculiar thing, aren't they - was talking about that at length, and their long-lasting impact on people (in so many diffrent ways, obv depending upon secret in question), just yesterday. I'd love for there to be a service to know more about them, without having to rely upon your parents' skewed version....

Is there no way of getting anyone in your family to talk about the subject? A bit annoying if not, if only for pure curiosity.

Yeah.. Unfortunately, I think the only people who really knew are dead. Certainly made for a confusing childhood though...

baboon2004
05-05-2010, 02:25 PM
Yeah.. Unfortunately, I think the only people who really knew are dead. Certainly made for a confusing childhood though...

I can imagine - i can understand how uncertainty/mystery like that would be difficult for a kid to digest. I have some of that myself for different reasons (unconnected with race, though what you said earlier in the thread has made me question why I have never even questioned those things said about my Mum, as in perhaps there is some East Asian blood in the family somewhere...I've always thought she was somehow slightly un-Celtic looking - she grew up in Wales - from photos of her when she was younger).

Edit: My g/f's roots (iranian, indian, pakistani, singaporean, oh, and a bit of georgian) make my musings seem somewhat mundane though!

baboon2004
05-05-2010, 02:25 PM
My grandparents on my dad's side used to go to religious groups to speak in toungues and shit. That freaked me right out when I heard that.

ha - really? that's pretty fucking cool. :slanted:

Which country was this in?

grizzleb
05-05-2010, 02:46 PM
ha - really? that's pretty fucking cool. :slanted:

Which country was this in?
Pretty strange I know - that's pretty much all I know about it. I'm not particularly close with my dad's side of the family (mum and dad split up when I was a baby) so I seen them once or twice a year when I was wee, they always seemed very nice but very parochial haha. I might need to ask my dad about it next time I see him.
It was in Motherwell, Scotland. Haha. Very Wicker man. They're properly Catholic though, so it was within that framework. :slanted:

baboon2004
05-05-2010, 02:53 PM
Pretty strange I know - that's pretty much all I know about it. I'm not particularly close with my dad's side of the family (mum and dad split up when I was a baby) so I seen them once or twice a year when I was wee, they always seemed very nice but very parochial haha. I might need to ask my dad about it next time I see him.
It was in Motherwell, Scotland. Haha. Very Wicker man. They're properly Catholic though, so it was within that framework. :slanted:

I was gonna ask if it was Scotland actually- Wicker Man, Breaking the Waves - we all know what it's really like up there! Everyone talks about aquacrunk and Numbers, but really it's all just Tower of Babel shit...

If you can post a video of it on here, so much the better ;)

zhao
05-05-2010, 03:03 PM
in the end (of today i guess), do i think Alan Moore is racist against Chinese people?

not 100%. but i do think he (and/or who ever wrote it) fully realize that "Niggy" would not have been allowed to be printed --- and that was the point of this portion of the conversation. (as Droid himself conceded to or let slip, and Babs correctly pointed out)

i don't think he or who ever wrote this story is as sensitive to the effects of depiction of racial stereotypes as he should be. far from it. whether it is tongue in cheek, ironic, or what EVER this story is supposed to be.

do i, a member of the targeted ethnic group, have the right to find it offensive? yes i do. with or without knowing the history of Alan Moore's work or political allegiances or activities. in fact ANYONE has the right to be offended and have their voice heard without being called "uneducated", a "cretin", or a "prick".

do i think Droid is racist? no. but like his favorite author, he is not as sensitive to the harm that stereotyping can do as he should be. and his behavior in this thread is firmly on the fucked up side: "you are a moron if you think this is racist", etc.

do people have the right to disagree with my reading of this story? of course they do. and some here have given different perspectives and made me think and consider other angles, like Massrock.

all in all, i have only voiced my thoughts on what i perceive to be (partially or otherwise) racist literature. whether this perception is accurate or not, i have done no one any wrong in this thread, and deserve an apology for names called, and insults hurled.

Slothrop
05-05-2010, 03:25 PM
Zhao - would you agree that the story is fundamentally a portrayal of racism rather than something where the racism is to be taken at face value? To me it seems very clear that the author is distanced from the content of the story by the deliberately archaic style and frankly by the fact that the obvious offensiveness of said content is something that no halfway intelligent author is going to be straightforwardly endorsing.

But this then gets you into murky waters - if we're talking about portrayals of racism, you've got a whole spectrum from obviously anti-racist stories with obviously evil puppy-kicking klansman villains through to simple, vicious, old-fashioned racism hiding under a thin patina of irony... I mean, we can't talk about racism to oppose it without representing it in some way, but the Moore comic seems to be in a more complicated space where it is to an extent about what the reader takes out of it as well as what the author put into it.

mistersloane
05-05-2010, 04:30 PM
... I mean, we can't talk about racism to oppose it without representing it in some way,

Yeah I think that's really the crux point. If one's medium is comics (and it's definitely, definitely Moore's) then how do you talk about the horrific portrayal of, god, any person of 'other-nessticity' within the history of comics? God when I was little it was still Ok to give me this :

http://www.sterlingtimes.co.uk/sambo.htm

to read, and it was one of my favourite books. It's important to remember these depictions. The strongest way to do it - and the hardest as an artist - would be to portray it as it was, in all of its ways, I think. However hard that is to see or read, I think making it would be harder. It's all the more an indictment - and I'm sure it was not lost on Moore - that they did print it.

I'd say Mickey Rooney's 'portrayal' in Chinatown would be the most offensive thing I can think of, and one which says much more really. Good article here :

http://www.brightlightsfilm.com/18/18_yellow.html

Tentative Andy
05-05-2010, 04:40 PM
There's been a great deal of goalpost-shifting in this thread. On the first page someone mentioned "gamers", namely people who spend a lot of time playing video games, especially online multiplayer ones. To me, that brings to mind the image of someone who is probably male and probably a teenager, of no specific ethnicity or social class (globally, the most game-mad country is South Korea, remember). The male-teen image is of course a stereotype but probably not an unjustified one, I think. Then gamers became generic "nerds" or "geeks" who subsequently crystalised into grown men (implicitly assumed to be white) with master's degrees in electrical engineering building superweapons for BAE Systems or what-have-you. That's quite a jump.



Firstly, for what reason does an enthusiasm for video games make someone great at programming or impart any other skill attractive to an employer? I've completed both Half-Life games on 'hard' and I still can't program for shit. In the same way that the average boy racer isn't necessarily an expert auto engineer and that you don't need to be a freshwater ecologist to go fishing at the weekend. In fact if you're glued to a screen and bashing merry hell out of your keyboard every spare minute you get, that's not going to have a positive effect on your school or university grades, with concomittant impact on your overall chances of getting a well-paid job.
Secondly, you don't even need a PC to game online these days, as modern consoles are build with multiplayer internet gaming in mind.
Thirdly, the falling price of computer hardware and broadband means you don't have to be especially privileged (by developed-country standards) to get online, whether your main interest is gaming or whatever.

I think the words "nerd" and "geek" are so vague and mutable as to be practically useless here. Says the guy posting on a forum at 12.30 am...

Points taken.



It seems in the meantime the jumping-down-each-others-throats structure of this thread has gone even further...

nomadthethird
05-05-2010, 05:10 PM
projecting onto woebot that when he sees the word 'gangs' he is visualising black Americans is an assumption no?

No, it's not an "assumption", it's a reality. Woebot and others were talking about a word that originated in American slang, and most probably, black American slang, wikipedia notwithstanding. What else was I to "assume" he meant in the context, when he brought up gangs? That this was some sort of word that originated from gangs on a distant planet, where there is no social construction of race?

The fact that gangs are largely minority-based is simply a fact in this culture. Unless, of course, you're "colorblind", like Stephen Colbert, so you can't "see" race.

Which is what your argument seems to amount to.

zhao
05-05-2010, 05:13 PM
Yeah I think that's really the crux point. If one's medium is comics (and it's definitely, definitely Moore's) then how do you talk about the horrific portrayal of, god, any person of 'other-nessticity' within the history of comics?

It's important to remember these depictions. The strongest way to do it - and the hardest as an artist - would be to portray it as it was, in all of its ways, I think. However hard that is to see or read, I think making it would be harder. It's all the more an indictment - and I'm sure it was not lost on Moore - that they did print it.

well i think simply duplicating it, repeating it, is not only not enough, but very much problematic. especially for a medium whose audience consist largely of young, inexperienced, and impressionable minds.

honest question: how do you think "portraying it as it was" functions? do you think it sparks debate? do you think it reminds kids of a past that they don't remember? or is it simply the manufacturing of yet more racist imagery? (here i sound like a soccer mom but whatever) what do you think a 14 year old will get out of this story? how might it influence his behavior next day at school, toward perhaps the 1 East Asian kid in his class, no doubt already being picked on?

if we are going to look at context, the publishing house ABC's most popular title, Tom Strong, is a campy, retro, all american superhero, not so much appropriating as embodying the exact same kind of macho heroism of the 1950s or whatever era. there IS NO critical subtext, there IS NO apparent irony. other than perhaps a slight self consciousness in the writing style, the only twist is that he has a wife of Afro-Caribbean decent, and a half and half daughter.

http://www.andysmithart.com/images/TomStrong-.jpg

(don't necessarily want to get into the political ramifications of the classic shots-calling white dude with "ethnic" bride thing... not to mention with non-human servants which can be readily argued as stand ins for non-white slaves.)

seems to me the entire ABC brand is not so much parodying anything, but being that which Droid's camp would say it is parodying.

and the way i encountered this Chinky story was as a stand alone, self contained story within the giant sized ABC special, with no thematic relations to the stories which appear before or after it.

so this question:


Slothrop

Zhao - would you agree that the story is fundamentally a portrayal of racism rather than something where the racism is to be taken at face value?

of what I, a 35 year old man, who has taken a couple of Post Colonial Studies courses or at least read a few books on the subject, think is the ultimate aim of the story is almost entirely beside the point.

given the (lack of) context, what do you think the primary target audience of these books, probably something like age 9 - 18, would get from the story?

it is never black and white (no puns intended), but in my estimation, this is slipping into the area of perpetuating harmful stereotypes much more than any kind of shedding light on race relations.

nomadthethird
05-05-2010, 05:17 PM
in the end (of today i guess), do i think Alan Moore is racist against Chinese people?

not 100%. but i do think he (and/or who ever wrote it) fully realize that "Niggy" would not have been allowed to be printed --- and that was the point of this portion of the conversation. (as Droid himself conceded to or let slip, and Babs correctly pointed out)

i don't think he or who ever wrote this story is as sensitive to the effects of depiction of racial stereotypes as he should be. far from it. whether it is tongue in cheek, ironic, or what EVER this story is supposed to be.

do i, a member of the targeted ethnic group, have the right to find it offensive? yes i do. with or without knowing the history of Alan Moore's work or political allegiances or activities. in fact ANYONE has the right to be offended and have their voice heard without being called "uneducated", a "cretin", or a "prick".

do i think Droid is racist? no. but like his favorite author, he is not as sensitive to the harm that stereotyping can do as he should be. and his behavior in this thread is firmly on the fucked up side: "you are a moron if you think this is racist", etc.

do people have the right to disagree with my reading of this story? of course they do. and some here have given different perspectives and made me think and consider other angles, like Massrock.

all in all, i have only voiced my thoughts on what i perceive to be (partially or otherwise) racist literature. whether this perception is accurate or not, i have done no one any wrong in this thread, and deserve an apology for names called, and insults hurled.

On this point, a professor of mine from grad school had some interesting comments. A film guy.

He was talking about the rape scene in The Accused, and different versions of blackface-as-shock-and-horror-for-white-benefit in films (he may have even used Bamboozled here? can't remember), and he said:

The problem with representations of violence (sexual and racial) in media is not that people without deep-seated race-based hatred lurking inside will see them and suddenly convert to racists; but nor will these images convert any racists from their views. The sole purpose they end up serving is to give white people who don't actively hate a reason to feel superior, ignoring the ways we are all complicit institutionalized oppression,while giving racists/misogynists a hate hard-on, basically. There's no other reason to depict this kind of thing, in his opinion.

It's the same reason why some people think there is no such thing as a "anti-war" movie...yadda yadda...

I'm not sure I agree totally with this, but it's worth considering.

nomadthethird
05-05-2010, 05:24 PM
sambo

I understand your point, but depicting these things as if they're in the past, or somehow archaic, can be an issue in and of itself-- the Mexican government got in trouble a few years ago for printing a Sambo postage stamp.

zhao
05-05-2010, 05:38 PM
but hey, don't listen to me. i'm an uneducated stupid moron prick for mentioning any of this.

i guess if there were any justice in the world "nasty pieces of work" like me would be banned from the forum, banned from LIFE.

nomadthethird
05-05-2010, 05:43 PM
but hey, don't listen to me. i'm an uneducated stupid moron prick for mentioning any of this.

i guess if there were any justice in the world "nasty pieces of work" like me would be banned from the forum, banned from LIFE.

Don't rock the boat! Just go with the flow, man. All that static is clouding our universalist visions.

(Just think, it could be even more fun- you could be calling out both white AND male privilege on a net forum. Almost as much fun as it is trying to do it IRL. j/k...)

gyto
05-05-2010, 05:43 PM
...

massrock
05-05-2010, 05:47 PM
i don't think he or who ever wrote this story is as sensitive to the effects of depiction of racial stereotypes as he should be. far from it. whether it is tongue in cheek, ironic, or what EVER this story is supposed to be.
I think you're right to point it out but from what I gather I wouldn't say that the intent of that strip was either tongue in cheek or ironic (or even parodic) exactly but something else. Starkly illustrative? It's not satire exactly, it's more deadpan.


I understand your point, but depicting these things as if they're in the past, or somehow archaic, can be an issue in and of itself-- the Mexican government got in trouble a few years ago for printing a Sambo postage stamp.
Yeah but again in the case of that comic it is depicting comics in the past.

mistersloane
05-05-2010, 05:51 PM
honest question: how do you think "portraying it as it was" functions? do you think it sparks debate? do you think it reminds kids of a past that they don't remember?



pretty much, yeah. I don't think horrifically racist pasts should be forgotten by any of us. I certainly won't forget how me or my sisters, or my father, were treated.




and the way i encountered this Chinky story was as a stand alone, self contained story within the giant sized ABC special, with no thematic relations to the stories which appear before or after it.



that's really interesting that they took it out of its original context, but it says more about the publishing house than the context in which it originally was, and I think that's certainly a line to pursue, and especially with the publishing house.




given the (lack of) context, what do you think the primary target audience of these books, probably something like age 9 - 18, would get from the story?



probably something horribly racist.




it is never black and white (no puns intended), but in my estimation, this is slipping into the area of perpetuating harmful stereotypes much more than any kind of shedding light on race relations.

out of its original context yeah, in its original intention I don't doubt how it was made or intended. I've read interviews with Moore where he's railed against how much he hates his work being manipulated, and I'm sure he'd agree.

There's a good conversation there about how stuff gets manipulated, but I gotta go cook pork and black beans, more later.

mistersloane
05-05-2010, 05:56 PM
The problem with representations of violence (sexual and racial) in media is not that people without deep-seated race-based hatred lurking inside will see them and suddenly convert to racists; but nor will these images convert any racists from their views. The sole purpose they end up serving is to give white people who don't actively hate a reason to feel superior, ignoring the ways we are all complicit institutionalized oppression,while giving racists/misogynists a hate hard-on, basically. There's no other reason to depict this kind of thing, in his opinion.

I'm not sure I agree totally with this, but it's worth considering.

Yeah I know what he's saying, personally I find it more shocking - Bamboozled is a great example - when it's used in a modern day commentary of past events, rather than watching, say, Birth of a Nation. I find the use of shock quite useful sometimes, for as long as it lasts, same as with violence. We all know it's horrid, but when it's depicted pornographically it makes you think about how horrible violence is. It's not the same if you just talk/read about it.

scottdisco
05-05-2010, 06:00 PM
i note MIA's latest video has been attracting a lot of comment, some of it certainly negative, 'it's all too OTT' etc.

i gather it's shocking in the sorts of ways Sloane describes in the previous post.

i say good for MIA.

nomadthethird
05-05-2010, 06:01 PM
Yeah but again in the case of that comic it is depicting comics in the past.

To what end? That's really the question, isn't? I mean, most of his readers know that type of thing existed, right? Whom/what is he really teaching there?

There are some statements that I think can only be made effectively by certain groups. I really think that cartoon may have worked IFF it were 1) made by an Asian person, and 2) were in a context where its message was unmistakeably clear.

A good example is Kara Walker. Am I sure what's she's doing isn't racist? No, I'm not. I think it is racist, in fact, very much so, and on purpose. Am I sure it has any positive effect except as a sort of exorcism for her? Nope. Is it successful art? Yeah, I think it is. But only because it's seems unmistakable to me what she's doing, from context, and given her personal perspective. There are some things white people will just never get away with saying or doing, and I think they should just respect that.

There are some people who would disagree, and they could make a strong case, though...

massrock
05-05-2010, 06:18 PM
To what end? That's really the question, isn't? I mean, most of his readers know that type of thing existed, right? Whom/what is he really teaching there?
As sloane says it's clearly partly about shock. It's also in a comic that refers to the history of comic books. But besides that does art have to 'teach' something necessarily?

I haven't read this though so I'm not best placed to answer. droid and reeltoreel explained a bit earlier. Sounds intriguing, no?


Within the narrative of the series, I think it's do with Promethea being the source of imaginative inspiration and the different forms this inspiration takes, as well as the effects it has, at different points in history. This story (the series of frames that Zhao posted) is a negative product of that. Again, it's been a while since I've read the book and I don't have a copy to hand, but I'm fairly sure that's it.

Its an addendum to the Promethea books (5 volumes), and is part of a conceit where Moore portrays his characters in the manner in which they would have been portrayed at the time - like using Black and white footage for old shots in a new documentary. In an issue of Tomorrows stories (IIRC) the rationalisation for the racist portrayal is revealed - Margie's childishness (and the childishness of the medium). When she (literally) outgrows the panels the stereotypical portayal of 'Chinky' vanishes and he becomes a 'real' character. It is a comment on the growth of the medium, on the portrayal of race in comics, on the 'innocence' of earlier eras) all of which have parallels to the main narrative which is extremely symbolic and full of references.

mistersloane
05-05-2010, 06:45 PM
Yeah I know what he's saying, personally I find it more shocking - Bamboozled is a great example - when it's used in a modern day commentary of past events, rather than watching, say, Birth of a Nation. I find the use of shock quite useful sometimes, for as long as it lasts, same as with violence. We all know it's horrid, but when it's depicted pornographically it makes you think about how horrible violence is. It's not the same if you just talk/read about it.

I'm gonna argue with myself here cos I remember seeing this, De Voortrekkers :

http://www.barbican.org.uk/film/event-detail.asp?ID=8214

and it was by faaaaaar the most racist thing I've ever seen, to the point of just sitting there laughing in disbelief, so I may have just disproved my own point.

I also don't think that 'only' people of the same ethnicity etc can do work about their own depictions, it's essentialist and reductive surely, and would leave me, as a quadroon, unable to do work about anything other than donkeys.

optimum
05-05-2010, 06:53 PM
This comic deals quite well with the 'Chinese stereotype', with it's character 'Chin-Kee', a lot better than the thing Zhao posted up thread.

http://www.firstsecondbooks.com/abc.html

nomadthethird
05-05-2010, 07:50 PM
I'm gonna argue with myself here cos I remember seeing this, De Voortrekkers :

http://www.barbican.org.uk/film/event-detail.asp?ID=8214

and it was by faaaaaar the most racist thing I've ever seen, to the point of just sitting there laughing in disbelief, so I may have just disproved my own point.

I also don't think that 'only' people of the same ethnicity etc can do work about their own depictions, it's essentialist and reductive surely, and would leave me, as a quadroon, unable to do work about anything other than donkeys.

Ha, well... it's not that they're the only ones who can do it, it's that, if you're what most people would see as white and you're going to talk about the oppression of others using overtly racist memes, be prepared for what will surely follow...


But besides that does art have to 'teach' something necessarily?


And I would say no to this, but really, that piece seemed like it was trying to teach something... I just can't figure out what exactly, apart from the bleedingly obvious...

droid
05-05-2010, 08:01 PM
but, but i am fractionally non-white!

do you realize that is exactly the same thing as "i have black friends"?


someone mistook you for Asian mean


But but... I married a woman who was 1/24 Mexican! Therefore I can't be racist


Umm... that's not what I was addressing. What I was addressing was his jump to the fact that he was in fact distantly Asian, which was supposed to prove that he couldn't possibly be wrong about the racist implications of a cartoon. That's the same thing. Sometimes the lobbyists claim that their great, great, great grandfather was Mexican instead. Or that their best friend is black. Or queer. Or whatnot.

I said wife because it's funnier that way.

And I think anyone who tries to defend those cartoons is racist. I don't care how many times someone mistook them for Asian.

I did not 'jump' to the fact. Zhao, repeatedly referred to me as 'white dude', 'caucasian person', clearly suggesting that my opinion was not valid because of my 'race', when in fact he didnt have a clue about my genetics.

I was bullied for ten years because I have Asian blood. Your and Zhao's statements above are quite offensive.

Strange how both of you have resorted to racist arguments as soon as I mentioned I was part Asian. How mixed do you have to be before your experience of racism is valid? 16%? 33%? 45%? 100%?

:slanted:

droid
05-05-2010, 08:43 PM
Ok, Im going to respond to this before it goes any further.


so it is I who has turned into a "nasty piece of work"... says the man spraying profanities and spittle all over the room...

...what you have done is call me a string of names such as "cretin", "uneducated", "prick", infer that i am stupid ("are you still trying to understand From Hell?") ---- all in an attempt to shut down discussion, and silence the non-white who cries racism.


First of all, I described the person who wrote those notes as a cretin. If Id known it was you I mightve been more diplomatic.

I didnt call you uneducated. I said you should 'educate yourself', specifically in relation to Moore and the work in question.

I did call you a prick and a twat. Both times in response to cheap racial comments that had no relevance. 'White dude, 'caucasian person'? seriously? If ever I saw an attempt to 'stifle debate' thats it. You picked a terrible example, were called out on it, and then said that I couldnt be right because Im 'white'

I made the comment about From Hell because you had trouble with understanding a part of it. This IMO is directly relevant to your interpretation of this piece.


to your favorite comic writer? by questioning the integrity of his publishing house? by not understanding the irony, and appreciating the finesse of this anti-racist story which only "seems" racist to the uneducated, ignorant, and dense?

He's not my favourite comics writer.


what if i am someone who did not know who Alan Moore is before now, who found this story racist and perpetuating racist stereotypes?

Youd be exactly like someone who saw this scene from mad men and concluded that mad men was therefore racist - wrong:

<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/F_7Zzb-t9Lc&hl=en_GB&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/F_7Zzb-t9Lc&hl=en_GB&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>

You havent even read Promethea have you (You never answered that question)? You downloaded that anthology and immediately decided to cast judgement. Did you even notice the caveat on the contents page?

So no, I dont feel i owe you an apology (as your original post requested). You've made spurious accusations of racism towards me for the third or fourth time, and when I responded to your cheap attempts to bring my genetics into the issue you then proceeded to tell me that I wasnt Asian enough to have experienced racism. Thats all way more offensive than a 'fuck you' IMO.

I do regret the profanities though, as its given you another excuse to spin your ego-driven victim fantasy where you crusade against white racist hetro hegemony on Dissensus, so Im more than happy to apologise to the rest of the board for my most unparlimentary language. :cool:

EDIT And might I add - you put 'only a moron would think that was racist' in quotes - I never said that. You also brought up the Black Athena thing AGAIN, and completely misrepresented me, accusing me of racism AGAIN.

Thats what bothers me most about all this TBH. Ive known you for years, and we've disagreed about plenty of stuff before, but now your being genuinely deceitful and using cheap and nasty methods to try and win arguments and smear me as a racist.

Good luck Zhao. Youre on my ignore list. i suggest you reciprocate.

Dunninger
05-05-2010, 09:03 PM
To what end? That's really the question, isn't? I mean, most of his readers know that type of thing existed, right? Whom/what is he really teaching there?


I don't think so. Moore's target audience are mostly adults (not kids) with enough knowledge about comics that they can recognize the reference to Winsor McCay. But he is usually just celebrated as one of the great pioneers of comics, and as far as I know there is not much critical discussion of racist elements in his work, so I'm sure there's enough people who are not aware of that.

grizzleb
06-05-2010, 12:19 AM
There's kind of a problem re: how much negative stuff that happens is it OK to portray as art, film, whatever. Like no matter how 'powerful' a holocaust movie is, should I really be watching it? There's so much difference between watching a movie and the horror of the actual event that can't actually be summarised at all. How much do real events just get reduced by this and become some cultural object for consumption. "Oh I read such and such a story it was so moving" :slanted: I dunno. But then there's the other side which is - to what extent can you inflate stuff so much to the extent that it becomes something taboo - the holocaust happened, and people were involved - it wasn't some force of nature, you should be able to talk about it. I dunno.

mistersloane
06-05-2010, 12:46 AM
There's kind of a problem re: how much negative stuff that happens is it OK to portray as art, film, whatever. Like no matter how 'powerful' a holocaust movie is, should I really be watching it? There's so much difference between watching a movie and the horror of the actual event that can't actually be summarised at all. How much do real events just get reduced by this and become some cultural object for consumption. "Oh I read such and such a story it was so moving" :slanted: I dunno. But then there's the other side which is - to what extent can you inflate stuff so much to the extent that it becomes something taboo - the holocaust happened, and people were involved - it wasn't some force of nature, you should be able to talk about it. I dunno.

On a basic level, as a creative person, you should be making rad stuff and letting yourself and people see/hear/eat it because it lets droid and zhao have a go at each other, and it's good fun. On another level, if you feel you shouldn't, don't.

I just think watching or reading stuff about things makes me think, regardless of who made it or their intention. It's not real, great! I hate fucking reality. It's horrible.

grizzleb
06-05-2010, 12:58 AM
On a basic level, as a creative person, you should be making rad stuff and letting yourself and people see/hear/eat it because it lets droid and zhao have a go at each other, and it's good fun. On another level, if you feel you shouldn't, don't.

I just think watching or reading stuff about things makes me think, regardless of who made it or their intention. It's not real, great! I hate fucking reality. It's horrible.

Yeah totally. That's pretty much my basic view. Yeah reality is well wank.

nomadthethird
06-05-2010, 04:36 PM
I did not 'jump' to the fact. Zhao, repeatedly referred to me as 'white dude', 'caucasian person', clearly suggesting that my opinion was not valid because of my 'race', when in fact he didnt have a clue about my genetics.

I was bullied for ten years because I have Asian blood. Your and Zhao's statements above are quite offensive.

Strange how both of you have resorted to racist arguments as soon as I mentioned I was part Asian. How mixed do you have to be before your experience of racism is valid? 16%? 33%? 45%? 100%?

:slanted:

Is this a joke?

Are you people serious?

Zhao did no such thing, I read through the entire thread as it was happening.

I'm sorry people picked on you for being Asian-- people picked on me and called me a goomba, a WOP, a guido, and kike!

Whoopdie-do, join the club, none of this has any bearing on what was being discussed. My being picked on doesn't make me less "white privileged", either.

nomadthethird
06-05-2010, 04:42 PM
Oh good lord, Mad Men?

Mad Men?

That show is terrible... talk about an example of a show that relies on "irony" to weasle out of being pinned down for sexism...

woops
06-05-2010, 04:59 PM
Yeah reality is well wank.

Agree

baboon2004
06-05-2010, 05:08 PM
There's kind of a problem re: how much negative stuff that happens is it OK to portray as art, film, whatever. Like no matter how 'powerful' a holocaust movie is, should I really be watching it? There's so much difference between watching a movie and the horror of the actual event that can't actually be summarised at all. How much do real events just get reduced by this and become some cultural object for consumption. "Oh I read such and such a story it was so moving" :slanted: I dunno. But then there's the other side which is - to what extent can you inflate stuff so much to the extent that it becomes something taboo - the holocaust happened, and people were involved - it wasn't some force of nature, you should be able to talk about it. I dunno.

depends if the art in question adds anything to your understanding (emotional or intellectual_ of the subject. 'Holocaust is bad' movies - so the fuck what? Didn't need to watch Schindler's List to know that! And besides, it's a bit pants (as is the Polanski one actually - laughable acting).

Whereas Shoah is probably somewhat akin to going through a terrible event (13 hours?), so would be more likely to produce some greater understanding (I got an hour through and was really fucking depressed, and films don't usually do that to me).

As you say, genuinely taboo subjects are worth investigating with art. And I find most people understand the contents of their own head far less than they understand the Holocaust...

Interesting subject though - I've spent periods thinking about it....and the above is my conclusion (possibly)!

zhao
06-05-2010, 06:20 PM
Ok, Im going to respond to this before it goes any further.



First of all, I described the person who wrote those notes as a cretin. If Id known it was you I mightve been more diplomatic.

I didnt call you uneducated. I said you should 'educate yourself', specifically in relation to Moore and the work in question.

I did call you a prick and a twat. Both times in response to cheap racial comments that had no relevance. 'White dude, 'caucasian person'? seriously? If ever I saw an attempt to 'stifle debate' thats it. You picked a terrible example, were called out on it, and then said that I couldnt be right because Im 'white'

I made the comment about From Hell because you had trouble with understanding a part of it. This IMO is directly relevant to your interpretation of this piece.



He's not my favourite comics writer.



Youd be exactly like someone who saw this scene from mad men and concluded that mad men was therefore racist - wrong:

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You havent even read Promethea have you (You never answered that question)? You downloaded that anthology and immediately decided to cast judgement. Did you even notice the caveat on the contents page?

So no, I dont feel i owe you an apology (as your original post requested). You've made spurious accusations of racism towards me for the third or fourth time, and when I responded to your cheap attempts to bring my genetics into the issue you then proceeded to tell me that I wasnt Asian enough to have experienced racism. Thats all way more offensive than a 'fuck you' IMO.

I do regret the profanities though, as its given you another excuse to spin your ego-driven victim fantasy where you crusade against white racist hetro hegemony on Dissensus, so Im more than happy to apologise to the rest of the board for my most unparlimentary language. :cool:

EDIT And might I add - you put 'only a moron would think that was racist' in quotes - I never said that. You also brought up the Black Athena thing AGAIN, and completely misrepresented me, accusing me of racism AGAIN.

Thats what bothers me most about all this TBH. Ive known you for years, and we've disagreed about plenty of stuff before, but now your being genuinely deceitful and using cheap and nasty methods to try and win arguments and smear me as a racist.

Good luck Zhao. Youre on my ignore list. i suggest you reciprocate.

from the get go, questioning this particular story was simply not OK to you.

you just started slamming me immediately.

you are so very much sure about the personal integrity of Alan Moore, that no scrutiny should be applied to anything with his name on it?

come on man.

a few others also disagree with my reading of the story as racist, but they either allowed that another perspective may also be at least partially valid, or suggested their own reading, without being... to use your own word, a prick about it.

and when i said "white person", it is because what you were saying just so happened to coincide with what i have heard from EVERY white person ever, including my closest friends and my current girlfriend: "it's all in your head." the circumstance may be different, but you should consider that the words are the same.

i never accused you of racism, but i do think you have, arguably this time, but in my estimation, during the Black Athena debate, under appreciated the breadth and depth of its legacy and effects.

but after all those disagreements, including the House Music thing, quite a silly thing really, that this comic, if you think about it, is to be the camel that breaks the straws back, and end our online conversations for ever?

zhao
06-05-2010, 06:23 PM
i have read Promethea by the way. and none of it gives this story enough context to render it unproblematic.

zhao
06-05-2010, 06:27 PM
On a basic level, as a creative person, you should be making rad stuff and letting yourself and people see/hear/eat it because it lets droid and zhao have a go at each other, and it's good fun.

it's all just interpretation, and different perspectives, stemming from different backgrounds, experiences, etc.

especially when it comes to the race issue.

a problem arises when one perspective thinks it is the only right one, and that there can not be any validity to another, opposing one.

but it's all pretty silly. this thing with Droid. as there are REAL fucking racists outside of both our windows! spreading hate!

Slothrop
06-05-2010, 06:30 PM
and when i said "white person", it is because what you were saying just so happened to coincide with what i have heard from EVERY white person ever, including my closest friends and my current girlfriend: "it's all in your head."

What? Where does he say that?

The only generally thing Droid said about racism against people of asian descent is that he's directly experienced it himself. That's not exactly the same thing as "it's all in your head."

He was talking about one specific example which he thought wasn't a good example of that racism.

nomadthethird
06-05-2010, 06:39 PM
I don't remember anyone telling you that you couldn't be Asian. If you didn't identify as Asian, someone calling you a ch*** is basically mistaking you for Asian- no?

Our racial identifications are not genetic. Droid keeps referring to his genetics as if they are what make him either Asian or white.

What makes you Asian or white is largely how society perceives you. I've never heard Droid ever, not once, on Dissensus, ever, in years, claim that he was even remotely Asian, until this discussion. Ok, so maybe this triggered bad memories, etc., I can imagine it would.

But the reason it seemed very spurious to mention is because it's not really relevant to whether the cartoon is offensive to Zhao, or whether an argument can be made that it's racist. Perhaps people consider Droid Asian, or somehow 'mixed' (a ridiculous idea in and of itself, since we're all mixed), before they ask him about his ethnic identifications- I don't know. But it's hardly weird for Zhao to have assumed that someone who has been on the board for years who never once identified himself as anything but white to be anything by white.

In the U.S., normally people consider racial identification reliant on cultural surroundings. For example, I was mostly raised by Italian-Americans, and my grandfather was from Italy and very dark skinned. But then my grandmother was actually from Denmark and was blonde. I think of myself as Italian-American because that's how I was raised, not because someone a few generations up was something. My dad's family is a whole other story of craziness that I probably couldn't keep track of if I tried (his grandfather had several families in several countries). If I were to think like that, I could probably consider myself black, since my grandfather's family is full of people with nappy hair and features that look quite African.
Since I'm lily white, and look nothing like them, I'm not seen that way. My brother looks a lot more like them and has darker skin. But we're both effectively "white."

zhao
06-05-2010, 06:40 PM
What? Where does he say that?

ok not in those words. but the same meaning since the beginning: Zhao is wrong to find this problematic, it is clearly not racist, it's all in his head.

gyto
07-05-2010, 02:51 PM
What makes you Asian or white is largely how society perceives you.

Agree with this

massrock
17-05-2010, 11:20 AM
http://www.davidandgoliathtees.com/shop/images/tees7/7352_0L.jpg

Mr. Tea
17-05-2010, 11:41 AM
Wow. Real cool dude in that^ photo. :slanted:

scottdisco
17-05-2010, 02:15 PM
natty threads indeed, he must go Abercrombie & Fitch

massrock
17-05-2010, 02:23 PM
Or here (http://www.davidandgoliathtees.com/product/SRCH/7352?page=1&perpage=20).

scottdisco
17-05-2010, 02:30 PM
Or here (http://www.davidandgoliathtees.com/product/SRCH/7352?page=1&perpage=20).

god damn you Massrock, spoiling my half-assed inaccurate aside w your "facts" and "research"
:p

zhao
17-05-2010, 02:43 PM
nice one massrock. a good example of what i was on about.

may be redundant but i'm going to say it for any lazy fuckers who only read the last page: a similar stereotyped caricature of many other ethnic groups would not be allowed in 2010.

hucks
17-05-2010, 02:54 PM
nice one massrock. a good example of what i was on about.

may be redundant but i'm going to say it for any lazy fuckers who only read the last page: a similar stereotyped caricature of many other ethnic groups would not be allowed in 2010.

It's weird but I swear I'm increasingly seeing Indian characters in comedies as figures of fun cos of their HILARIOUS sing song accents. See, for instance, the head teacher in Glee (you know what I'm fucking talking about, don't lie), or one of the nerds in big Bang Theory (um...) or Phonejacker, which is a UK thing. And is utter, utter bilge.

And dear old Apu in the Simpsons, too. I mentioned him to my colleague, who is from from Delhi, and asked her if she found him offensive and she said, "Not really. He's more of a Sri Lankan stereotype".

None of which is to say that the t-shirt isn't filth, or not offensive or whatever. Totally agree w Zhao here.

mistersloane
17-05-2010, 04:22 PM
Gave it a remix. I've always wanted a T-shirt that said this.

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f119/mistersloane/dontfuckwiththewongs.jpg

woops
17-05-2010, 05:08 PM
Sloane! Shame on you. What's wrong with having sex with Chinese people?

nomadthethird
17-05-2010, 05:35 PM
It's weird but I swear I'm increasingly seeing Indian characters in comedies as figures of fun cos of their HILARIOUS sing song accents. See, for instance, the head teacher in Glee (you know what I'm fucking talking about, don't lie), or one of the nerds in big Bang Theory (um...) or Phonejacker, which is a UK thing. And is utter, utter bilge.

I like the Indian accent a lot but it is basically a comic trope, so if I said that, someone would think I was being a douche, probably. Or a fetishist.

I've had several Indian men on the most random occasions tell me that they liked my "woice". A couple times on the phone, other times in person. I always wondered if maybe it was just a pick up line where they come from. But it seemed sincere.

Or maybe it was some kind of reverse anti-white voice-based discrimination... :D

Mr. Tea
17-05-2010, 05:59 PM
I wonder if Indians think "the European accent" is cute, funny or whatever...?

zhao
17-05-2010, 08:30 PM
Thank you for your feedback and sorry for the way you feel towards the
shirt. However, we will not be removing it from our website as it is one of
our best selling shirts.

Thank you,
-- David & Goliath

.

nomadthethird
17-05-2010, 11:25 PM
.

Probably that's the top seller, then there's "me love you long time" or "sucky sucky" is probably the second.

petergunn
19-05-2010, 08:54 AM
I like the Indian accent a lot but it is basically a comic trope, so if I said that, someone would think I was being a douche, probably. Or a fetishist.



russell peters sort of owns this sort of thing....

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zhao
19-05-2010, 07:46 PM
this is mild but kind of interesting and entertaining. HBO did a thing on Asian identity. we were cracking up about the Koreah hiphop dude... (only cuz he's a bit too much like me)

http://www.charter.net/tv/tvonline/play?vid=277730&vendor=hbo