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Woebot
29-09-2010, 10:40 AM
Well it was a bad day for big brothers everywhere. But sheriously.

What a toad! He seems to suddenly decide he wants the crown for himself - and appears to hijack the union vote to achieve his ends. How weird to have a party leader seemingly against the party's wishes?

He scuppers his brother's hopes and I suppose effectively divides the party in two in the process creating a load of bad feeling.

And call me old-fashioned but two children and he's not man enough to marry his wife.

This guy is a disaster for Labour. I thought David was a reasonably attractive proposition! I really feel for the poor guy - he looks utterly humiliated.

routes
29-09-2010, 10:57 AM
haha... last night i saw some of the 'highlights' from his first speech as Labour leader and he is a surprisingly weak public speaker. good luck to the guy...
re David Milliband, i'm sure ole Tone can find him a nice cushty lil job at the IMF or something...

droid
29-09-2010, 11:35 AM
Isn't D. Milliband a slimy Blairite creep?

http://www.youtube.com/v/t4sELK-iEjQ?fs=1&hl=en_US

hucks
29-09-2010, 12:16 PM
Stalks his older brother then knifes him -what an utter bastard. And I speak as a middle child so I understand both sides.

I saw EdMilli speak at a Compass conference a couple of years ago and thought he was pretty good, in a young up and coming kind of way, but he's no leader, and his speech yesterday was guff. The new generation is a terrible, excluding theme, and in any case he isn't. He wrote the Labour manifesto for the general election. And it was terrible, meaningless rubbish, with a scary conflation of crime and immigration in there somewere too.

I might be alone in the whole world here, but I want someone experienced enough to forensically take this coalition down. I don't want visions, values and new generation hopey changey bollocks, I want policies, and a proper articulation of an alternative the forthcoming economic death spiral.

I voted for Ed Balls, tho, so what do I know etc

PS woebot yes you are old-fashioned.

scottdisco
29-09-2010, 12:36 PM
hopefully Balls will be shadow chancellor as he has both the street-fighting tenacity and Keynesian intellectual chops to nip at the heels of this slash and burn coalition, who would be cutting fast regardless of circumstances as it's in their blood.

as for Ed, he'll do as a placeholder. his speech yesterday tacked a bit right in places, tried to discard the 'red' label, and was a plea for Labour party unity. i did note one or two Blairite voices moaning against him yday mind, which really REALLY fucking winds me up. unity is the most important thing for Labour right now.

though i totally agree w what Hucks said about crime and immigration.

my younger brother is far more dazzling and successful than me, so i'm pleased to see the theme continue on the wider stage ;)

scottdisco
29-09-2010, 12:49 PM
also to be fair to Milli Junior, his rhetorical question about why should a banker earn more in a day than a care worker in a year (or whatever the phrasing was, but it was something like that) is a far more eloquent and just intervention to place in the minds of Britons than anything Osborne, Clegg, Cameron or Baroness sodding Warsi have come up with all year.

Warsi w her recent scaremongering about the guy has been just what you'd expect: tired, disingenuous, predictable neo-Thatcherite garbage.

john eden
29-09-2010, 01:19 PM
Well it was a bad day for big brothers everywhere. But sheriously.

What a toad! He seems to suddenly decide he wants the crown for himself - and appears to hijack the union vote to achieve his ends. How weird to have a party leader seemingly against the party's wishes?

He scuppers his brother's hopes and I suppose effectively divides the party in two in the process creating a load of bad feeling.

And call me old-fashioned but two children and he's not man enough to marry his wife.

This guy is a disaster for Labour. I thought David was a reasonably attractive proposition! I really feel for the poor guy - he looks utterly humiliated.

I honestly don't know where to start with this.

Did he "hijak" the union vote or did union members support him because of his policies?

Is it not the case that he is man enough to have a relationship with a woman without needing it sanctioned by the church (which he doesn't believe in) and the state - i.e. like an increasingly large number of people, including me?

Do we have democracy in this country and in our poltiical parties or is it some kind of heriditary feudal system where all the rights go to the first born?

Why is David "apologist for torture" Miliband a better bet?

I'm not fan of either of them, but come on.

paolo
29-09-2010, 01:25 PM
He supports Leeds United :(

scottdisco
29-09-2010, 01:38 PM
as long as he isn't under the impression Norman Hunter still actually plays for them he'll do better than Tony 'Die-hard Mag' Blair

Woebot
29-09-2010, 01:40 PM
I honestly don't know where to start with this.

Did he "hijak" the union vote or did union members support him because of his policies?

Is it not the case that he is man enough to have a relationship with a woman without needing it sanctioned by the church (which he doesn't believe in) and the state - i.e. like an increasingly large number of people, including me?

Do we have democracy in this country and in our poltiical parties or is it some kind of heriditary feudal system where all the rights go to the first born?

Why is David "apologist for torture" Miliband a better bet?

I'm not fan of either of them, but come on.

i didnt know you weren't married john. tsk - shame on you. ;)

no i don't mind the marriage thing too much - i just think in this case its symptomatic of him being a selfish little twit.
he didn't say he didn't see a place for it in society - he said he was too busy.

matt b
29-09-2010, 01:48 PM
no i don't mind the marriage thing too much - i just think in this case its symptomatic of him being a selfish little twit.

:slanted:


Matt, you seem to be reflecting the media's reaction incredible reaction to this- David was the leader in waiting, looked nice, had policies that fitted into the centre ground, no values or beliefs to speak. And he was robbed of his rightful crown by the evil unions.

Is that how broken political discourse is in this country? David now flounces off because he didn't get want he wanted and is portrayed as the injured party?

Ed's fimly centrised anyway. The Mail, Times etc hate him because he wants the rich to pay more of their fair share for the shitstorm they put us in, which of course is unacceptable.

Woebot
29-09-2010, 01:52 PM
Do we have democracy in this country and in our poltiical parties or is it some kind of heriditary feudal system where all the rights go to the first born?

Why is David "apologist for torture" Miliband a better bet?

I'm not fan of either of them, but come on.

come to think of it john i don't quite know where to begin with this either!

it would have equally unpleasant if the older brother had done to the same thing to the younger brother.

furthermore to call milliband senior an apologist for torture is farcical. he's being a mite more honest that any other politician in his place (like the clapping harriet harman). what a delightful opportunity for little ed to say "ok its a clean slate"

Woebot
29-09-2010, 01:53 PM
you seem to be reflecting the media's reaction incredible reaction to this

and?

matt b
29-09-2010, 01:57 PM
and?

which has no base in reality

john eden
29-09-2010, 01:59 PM
I need to find out what the brothers think about Heaven 17 before I say more.

I love calling them "the brothers" though, it makes us all sound like we're in Harlem in the sixties. :D

grizzleb
29-09-2010, 03:39 PM
I don't want any misunderstandings when I say I can't stand the brothers though...

I can't see how Ed Miliband owed anything to his brother. It was a fair contest and he won, I'm glad I don't have to offer up everything to my older brothers if I want them first. The point about his own party not voting for them is nonsense. The unions have a say in the electoral system of the labour party, and they (and many others) elected him. I think he's easily the best choice for Labour from an outsiders perspective. Miliband D, whilst smooth and charming and all the rest was far too much like Tony Blair mk 3 (after DC) and I think this country has probably grown sick of robotic non-people leading their political parties. Ed has the right amount of un-charm and ugliness whilst still conveying the slightly mechanised action that is required to run a party these days to do what's needed. Ed Balls is probably the most intelligent and forward about what he would rather do as leader than any other, but he has literally no PR skills and is wholly unmarketable and the way he comes across in public is so aggressive and aloof. It will be interesting times for sure. David must be well gutted, harsh for the boey.

crackerjack
29-09-2010, 04:41 PM
I also voted for The Other Ed, who played a blinder throughout the campaign and has been by far the most impressive critic of the ConDems (tis a pity the guy could start a fight in an empty room and would be a terrible leader).

I (reluctantly) put David M second, purely because I think he'd win us more votes and because I've found Ed slightly opportunist in this election. Making such a big play of Iraq was unnecessary. That said, much of the criticism is hyperbolic. He's no public speaker, but yesterday's speech contained a lot of good stuff, especially on wages.

He was perfectly entitled to stand. He and his brother come from different places not massively in historical terms, but significant enough in the modern Labour party and the centre-left needed a candidate who wasn't Balls, frankly. Labour needs reminding what it's about and until Yvette Cooper learns her some panache I can't see anyone better placed.

And Scott and Hucks, people who read party manifestos are weird.

droid
29-09-2010, 04:48 PM
http://enemiesofreason.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/dm8.jpg

Slothrop
29-09-2010, 04:51 PM
Is there a decent rundown anywhere of what he's actually likely to do?

All the news reports that I've seen since he won have said that a) he made a speech with a bunch of platitudes b) his brother was in the running too c) he isn't married yet omg and d) he thought Iraq was a bad idea. And before that I never managed to learn which candidate was which...

hucks
29-09-2010, 04:52 PM
And Scott and Hucks, people who read party manifestos are weird.

Why thank you. You old tease.

crackerjack
29-09-2010, 05:02 PM
Is there a decent rundown anywhere of what he's actually likely to do?

All the news reports that I've seen since he won have said that a) he made a speech with a bunch of platitudes b) his brother was in the running too c) he isn't married yet omg and d) he thought Iraq was a bad idea. And before that I never managed to learn which candidate was which...

Well he's also in favour of using the state (eg thru tax and/or govt contracts) to boost the Living Wage, as opposed to the minimum.

He says the 50% top rate is permanent.

He's opposed some of Nu Lab's illiberalism (3 month detention, absurd uses of anti-terrorism law).

He's for nice stuff and against bad stuff.

That's about all I can remember at the mo.

edit: Oh, and he probably favours a slower deficit reduction than his brother, but that's not confirmed as they've been vague about that all along.

scottdisco
29-09-2010, 05:20 PM
Why thank you. You old tease.

:D

yeah, Ed M has sounded good on civil liberties, like Crackerjack says, he definitely would want to reverse some NuLab follies in that area.

heartened by the Cracker and hucks love for Ed Balls' grasp of stuff, if also agreeing w all and Grizzleb about the guy's love of a ruck, etc.

crackerjack
29-09-2010, 05:46 PM
Significant that Ed's first act is to sack Nick Brown as Chief Whip, presumably as a sop to his bruv. These old wounds run sooooo deep.

IdleRich
29-09-2010, 07:39 PM
Ed Balls is supposed to be super smart but everyone who has met him says that he is very unpleasant. I think that will always be his stumbling block.

crackerjack
29-09-2010, 11:16 PM
Ed Balls is supposed to be super smart but everyone who has met him says that he is very unpleasant. I think that will always be his stumbling block.

Supposedly his sworn enemy is now Ed Mili presumably cos he nicked the centre-left vote and Charlie Whelan (another ex-Brownie, but very much Camp Mili) is gleefully taking the piss out of him all over Twitter. I don't fancy our chances of putting all that old shit to rest.

samdiamond
30-09-2010, 12:44 AM
Ed Balls is supposed to be super smart but everyone who has met him says that he is very unpleasant.

An easy fit for shadow chancellor then?

mos dan
30-09-2010, 02:57 AM
firstly i'm not unhappy with the emphasis he's put on iraq - throughout the campaign. it's quite rightly been a huge fucking albatross around the neck of the labour party - both in itself, and the way it was subsequently handled. i'm not sure how verifiable his opposition in 2003 was (he wasn't an mp at the time of course - i think there was a mehdi hasan blog about proof on the ns blog a few weeks back) - but either way it's a vital break to make, symbolically. i couldn't care less if it seemed or was opportunist, it was just *necessary*

thank you crackerjack for pointing out these:


Well he's also in favour of using the state (eg thru tax and/or govt contracts) to boost the Living Wage, as opposed to the minimum.

He says the 50% top rate is permanent.

He's opposed some of Nu Lab's illiberalism (3 month detention, absurd uses of anti-terrorism law).

He's for nice stuff and against bad stuff.

edit: Oh, and he probably favours a slower deficit reduction than his brother, but that's not confirmed as they've been vague about that all along.

also he's going to vote yes on av, which is obviously crap ersatz pr, but maybe a step in the right direction.

also he's for a fully elected house of lords right?

i'll be honest i still haven't had time to watch the speech, i just got back from turkey.

the bottom line for me is that i could give a shit about the relationship dynamics between him and his brother, beyond a purely theatrical interest - there's a worryingly high emphasis on it in this thread imho! the 'in the grip of the unions stuff' is nonsense, everyone needs to move on - i don't see how anyone can think it's wildly undemocratic. and they're going to need him in the next few years as much he'll need them.

really THE POINT IS in the (lol) current economic climate, with the cuts about to bite, with an untested and brittle coalition, this is an actual opportunity, isn't it?? to make the case for the role of the state, for bank regulation, and for a green economy (which my enviro mate tells me he has a pretty good record on). this is a key moment, no? the next 3/4/5 years, before the next election? possibly less than that, who knows..

the lib dems are weak, and cameron's sheen will come off as the nights draw in (he did BADLY in the may election, too, let's not forget that - six months away from polling day they were coasting to a comfortable majority).

SURELY the least the left ought to do now is stop fiddling with itself while rome burns, lobby ed to be brave enough to probe the cracks in the coalition, and answer the questions facing the country with keynesian policies, coupled with enlightened, progressive civil liberties, climate change and electoral reform policy. all these are realistically attainable policy goals at this moment in time, no?

don't believe it'll happen necessarily - but it's easier to make the case for it than it has been for ages; and if the labour party aren't imprisoned by the ethos of new labour anymore, then how is this not a good thing? tony blair was not really ever ~a labour man~, he delighted in rejecting party orthodoxies (like fairness, redistribution of wealth, sunshine, puppies etc). meanwhile brown was fried from the start. miliband is neither of those things. i don't think it makes me a cock-eyed optimist to think that might make a difference?

:slanted:


***

ps my god what choice did ed have, with the viciously anti-socialist* press we have (and he's had, already), but to pitch his very first leader's speech to the right of 'red ed'? what would you do? i'm not saying he's some devious entriest genius in waiting, but come on, he's just not fucking stupid! :)

*whatever they think that word means at any one time

pps someone on twitter pointed out that neither blair nor cameron established a specific policy slate the minute they took over as party leaders. i don't know whether that's the right thing to do (morally or tactically), but it's certainly seen to be politically astute to hold back a bit.

post-post-script CAVEAT: i am not a member of the labour party nor have i ever been. and didn't vote for ed miliband. tho i did win a little bit betting on him lol

(sorry to witter on, seriously) :)

gumdrops
30-09-2010, 10:15 AM
the bottom line for me is that i could give a shit about the relationship dynamics between him and his brother, beyond a purely theatrical interest - there's a worryingly high emphasis on it in this thread imho!

not just on this thread either. 'serious' journos seem to be lapping it up.

scottdisco
30-09-2010, 11:14 AM
i heard he's an atheist and had a child out of wedlock.

no wonder the country is going to the dogs.

craner
30-09-2010, 11:16 PM
To add my two cents, I think it was a disasterous conference: Labour, once again, sank to the occasion. I've been watching the TV in total disbelief for the last few days, swimming around in Tessa Jowell's tragic eyes as Kinnock and the Union Leaders goon around on TV. The only serious contenders, with the only substantial leadership campaigns, proved to be David Miliband and Ed Balls -- followed, a long way behind, by Andy Burnham, who made valient stabs at the arguments, and gave a surprisingly robust defence of his Iraq vote. Diane Abbott's bid was merely perplexing, and not as funny or singular or epochal as she obviously thought. And then there was Ed, who seemed to be having a pillow fight on a bouncy castle. As David and Balls hit their stride, his performance got increasingly vacuous and nonsensical, cynical (manipulating all the factions) and powerless (being manipulated by them). So now, this means that Labour is led by a young man who doesn't really know what to do with his victory and is surrounded by powerful Party and Union barons who suddenly think they have a puppet, and very likely have. I know a lot of people are delighted by the Blairite rout (symbolised for me by Charles Clarke losing his seat in May and Tessa's tragic eyes, Tessa and Charles being, after all, the very spores of New Labour) -- but the expulsion/exile of this tendency will prove important, and damaging.

hucks
30-09-2010, 11:25 PM
I don't understand the cynicism around Ed Miliband



I'm not cynical, but I'm not impressed. And all that We Are the Optimists stuff was just cringeworthy. Is that it? Don't worry be happy? We're all fucked. Why cheer that one on?




really THE POINT IS in the (lol) current economic climate, with the cuts about to bite, with an untested and brittle coalition, this is an actual opportunity, isn't it??



Exactly. He just isn't the man. I want someone to bite George Osborne's face off. Will Ed Miliband bite George Osborne's face off? No. Then he isn't the man.



the lib dems are weak, and cameron's sheen will come off as the nights draw in (he did BADLY in the may election, too, let's not forget that - six months away from polling day they were coasting to a comfortable majority).



Good point. But why isn't Cameron popular? Why didn't he seal the deal? I don't want to wade too deep into the Tory blogging cesspit to find out, but surely part of it was his absence of any policies? He articulated nothing. He was Hope and Change. OK, we get it. And it's not enough.

Balls would have gone after them on schools and the economy. Even Burnham has a good line of attack on the NHS (which really, really matters) but EMili is just "values" and "message" and yawn and zzzz.





SURELY the least the left ought to do now is stop fiddling with itself while rome burns, lobby ed to be brave enough to probe the cracks in the coalition


He shouldn't need lobbying. I agree with you that he does, though. And that's not right.



don't believe it'll happen necessarily - but it's easier to make the case for it than it has been for ages; and if the labour party aren't imprisoned by the ethos of new labour anymore, then how is this not a good thing? tony blair was not really evera labour man~, he delighted in rejecting party orthodoxies (like fairness, redistribution of wealth, sun~shine, puppies etc). meanwhile brown was fried from the start. miliband is neither of those things. i don't think it makes me a cock-eyed optimist to think that might make a difference?



No, but I think you're ignoring his lack of experience and his lack of any real point of difference with the coalition. My horrible feeling is that he's goin gto spend the time getting the mood music right while the Tories wreak utter havoc. I want a Labour leader to articulate an alternative to the forthcoming Tory/ Lib Dem horror. I don't see Ed Miliband doing that. I hope I'm wrong.

Also, and this is sad, and I feel bad saying it, but I'd take any Labour, Old, New, whatever, over this government. The systematic destruction of any social safety net, the total economic illiteracy, the transparent class hatred - listen to Gove, listen to Osborne. I want them beaten, and I would sacrifice a shot at a perfect Labour party to get it done. And I don't think Ed Miliband is the man.

crackerjack
01-10-2010, 09:10 AM
Exactly. He just isn't the man. I want someone to bite George Osborne's face off. Will Ed Miliband bite George Osborne's face off? No. Then he isn't the man.
.

But that will be Balls' job (assuming he gets it - if not, maybe Liam Byrne) and he'll do it better as shadow chancellor than leader. All this visceral stuff is very appealing to the party faithful but people don't want attack dogs in No.10. Mood music matters - that's why Brown was so spectacularly crap as a leader.

edit: If you missed QT last night, get to the iPlayer and watch Brian Cox (the actor, not D-Ream/scientist) rip David Starkey a new arsehole on the issue of Ed.

crackerjack
01-10-2010, 02:32 PM
I know a lot of people are delighted by the Blairite rout (symbolised for me by Charles Clarke losing his seat in May and Tessa's tragic eyes, Tessa and Charles being, after all, the very spores of New Labour) -- but the expulsion/exile of this tendency will prove important, and damaging.

This hyperbolic ultra-Blarite shit surrounding Ed - of which the above is an example is getting embarrassing. There is no expulsion/exile unless you/they want it. Ed Mili's election represents a long-overdue minor leftward shift and little more. He has no need to be in the union pocket because he's already elected and say what you will about Tony Woodley, he's no Sam Giancana. People are getting in a tizz because Mili said it's time to admit Iraq was a fuck-up tbh, this is pretty much now beyond a matter of opinion and into objective fact, but too many people have expended too much energy and burnt too many bridges to admit that.

Nu Lab, to me, was always meant to be about pragmatism, a cutting back of the more damaging statist ideology and its replacement with a more flexible approach. instead it's pickled into hardcore dogma, with Blair becoming Thatcher (witness his ludicrous suggestion that deviating one iota from Nu Lab spelt trouble - I mean, he is aware we had to nationalise the banks, right?) and Mandelson (who did enormous damage to D Mili's hopes) turning into its Tebbit. It's time to get over yourselves.

Slothrop
01-10-2010, 02:41 PM
Yeah, it does seem mental to see 'blairism' turning into some kind of hardcore ideology when it always seemed to be a kind of soft, pragmatic, grab-the-middleground compromise of an idea. I mean, people seem to be making out the differences between, Ed M, David M and Ed B to be like some kind of earth-shattering ideological gulfs when from the outside it looks a lot more like different personalities and different gangs of mates heading very similar brands of pragmatic centrism...

routes
01-10-2010, 03:12 PM
*aside*

Emilli Emilli Emilli Emilli Emilli......


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8Uhn-dU3Gg

"Ed Milliband, i'm the unmarried Milliband, younger than the other Milliband, my policies don't compare, i'm a political disease, like a minstrel, please.... etc..."

craner
22-10-2010, 11:40 AM
More gruesome outcomes -- this time in Tower Hamlets.

crackerjack
25-10-2010, 03:35 PM
More gruesome outcomes -- this time in Tower Hamlets.

I'm still too depressed to comment on this.

Mr. Tea
25-10-2010, 03:44 PM
I'm ashamed to say I'm part of the 74% of the electorate that failed to vote... :o

Various dirty tricks mentioned in the papers - the Bengali freesheet calling the Labour guy a 'racist' (against whom?) and 'wifebeater' - Rahman denies all knowledge, of course.

crackerjack
25-10-2010, 04:38 PM
I'm ashamed to say I'm part of the 74% of the electorate that failed to vote... :o

Various dirty tricks mentioned in the papers - the Bengali freesheet calling the Labour guy a 'racist' (against whom?) and 'wifebeater' - Rahman denies all knowledge, of course.

The Bengali freesheet which was delivered to thousands of houses in the borough for the first time ever. And half their staff resigned in protest. Rahman's campaign was the filthiest shit I've seen and anyone involved in it should be refused readmission to the party. And as for Ken....it's the kind of thing that makes me believe all the muck thrown at him is fully justified. Cunt.

Mr. Tea
25-10-2010, 04:55 PM
Yeah, you expect no better from Gorgeous George of course, but to see Ken backing this kind of slimy bastard is just depressing. I guess maybe it flatters his vanity to see another Labour man do a 'him', i.e. win an important post after being booted out of the party and going it alone.

crackerjack
25-10-2010, 05:05 PM
Yeah, you expect no better from Gorgeous George of course, but to see Ken backing this kind of slimy bastard is just depressing. I guess maybe it flatters his vanity to see another Labour man do a 'him', i.e. win an important post after being booted out of the party and going it alone.

I think it's less vain, more calculating. Apparently he got a huge turnout in TH at last mayoral election and is hoping for more of the same in '12. The mosques are very good at getting the vote out.

Mr. Tea
25-10-2010, 06:16 PM
Yay, ghetto politics. :(

crackerjack
25-10-2010, 08:33 PM
Tory-Labour alliance in TH?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/davehillblog/2010/oct/25/tower-hamlets-conservatives-seek-cooperation-with-labour-counterparts-in-opposition?CMP=twt_fd

crackerjack
20-01-2011, 05:15 PM
Didn't see that coming, not for a couple of years at any rate.

Balls might be a cunt, but the sight of him shredding Squeaky George will be compensation enough.

hucks
20-01-2011, 05:30 PM
Balls might be a cunt, but the sight of him shredding Squeaky George will be compensation enough.

Good.

Edit: Ha! My 1000th post. One of my best, even if do say so myself.