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Transpontine
20-10-2010, 11:45 PM
Went down to the London anti-cuts demo in Whitehall tonight.

Got to whitehall before the student demo arrived, probably around 500 people there. The organisers announced that the police had agreed to close Whitehall from 6 pm so people should go into the road - some of us did but the first car came along and everyone got out the way! Eventually after some minor pushing and shoving one side of the road was closed. When the main student demo turned up - bringing numbers up to around 3000 - some people also blocked the other side of the road, but were eventually pushed back. The organisation wasn't great - 10 good stewards could have closed the road in no time.

Felt kind of unreal - police blocking people crossing over towards Downing Street, but anybody could walk round them and make their own way there. France it wasn't, but maaybe the long haul to building an effective movement has started.

Jesse Jackson spoke, his left liberal keynesianism is not my thing, but he can work a crowd! Also must admit to feeling a little bit moved by the geographical/historical continuity he represents. After all he was on the balcony when Martin Luther King was shot. How many people from that time are still out there on demos?

Neil

continuum
20-10-2010, 11:50 PM
my thoughts are that the consequences of a war with a fraction of the violence equals win

Tyro
21-10-2010, 01:27 PM
Mad Pride, Anti-Cuts Demo - London Oct 26th 2010 - 1pm

Mad Pride is supporting a demonstration by survivors of the mental health system are doing on the 26th October against the cuts to benefits and services. It will be at Speaker's Corner in Hyde Park, London, UK. This will be in the wake of the Governments Spending Review. We are calling for a 24 hour medication strike on that day. Politicians will be executed at the traditional site of Tyburn.


http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2010/10/466349.html

Tyro
28-10-2010, 12:59 AM
A TUC organised national demonstration against the cuts is to be held in Hyde Park in the Spring, on Saturday 26 March 2011.


http://www.tuc.org.uk/mediacentre/tuc-18709-f0.cfm

Sectionfive
10-11-2010, 05:12 PM
London looking good on skynews now.

Dr Awesome
10-11-2010, 07:43 PM
Yeah, what's up with that? Looked like something you'd see in some third world shit hole, or, dare I say it, France.
Reports said that University fees were planned on being raised up to 3 times their current amount.
Are fees currently so heavily subsidised that students only pay about 1/3rd of the actual costs as it stands?

Mr. Tea
11-11-2010, 11:21 AM
"Nick Clegg regrets signing anti-tuition fees pledge":

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-11732787

Oh fuck off. Can't believe I wasted my vote on this total shower.

'But he added the planned changes were better than the existing fees regime and would help generations of "poor bright kids" to go to university.'

Too bad for all the would-be students whose parents' combined income is over the lavish £25,000 (!) cut-off but is still nowhere near large enough to afford 9k a year up front or countenance racking up a debt of 27k over three years on fees alone. And parents with more than one kid who wants to study might as well forget it.

Edit: and just for added cuntishness value, there was talk of the Student Loans Company imposing penalties on its clients for repaying debts too soon, like some credit cards and banks do, although I believe that's since been thrown out.

Sectionfive
11-11-2010, 12:20 PM
Poor aul Nick didn't think he was gonna get in did he..

Same story. Doubling it in Decembers budget. Fee's by any other name etc.
The great myth that we're all spoilt middleclass wingers getting peddled heavily.
So the police are still happy enough to set the dogs on the nations children.

Have to say say your lot put us to shame (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPnoAY1wXfI) though.

Mr. Tea
11-11-2010, 12:53 PM
Poor aul Nick didn't think he was gonna get in did he..


Indeed. He'll probably renege on his promise of unlimited free ice-cream for all next...

Sectionfive
11-11-2010, 01:07 PM
All about the free cheese these days.

baboon2004
11-11-2010, 03:06 PM
Anyone else a little disbelieving by the press coverage of yesterday's events at Millbank? The idea that there would even have been that much press coverage of the march without the violence seems very naive.

luka
12-11-2010, 05:29 AM
why disbelief? its hardly out of character?

luka
20-11-2010, 09:36 AM
i found this comment on the guardian website.

Shermanator

18 November 2010 2:45PM

Give me a break.

Stop trying to intellectualize and justify your nonsense.

Learn a skill, clean yourself get off the bottle and get a job. I assure you your life will improve and you will no longer see the need for these ridiculous protests.

Mr. Tea
20-11-2010, 12:59 PM
^^Typical Marxist nonsense

baboon2004
20-11-2010, 01:05 PM
why disbelief? its hardly out of character?

You're right, but I'd forgotten how utterly anti-any kind of political action/standing up for your rights Britain is. It's perceived as a joke in too many quarters, as in the comment you've pulled out (which I think is a fairly widespread opinion).

Sectionfive
20-11-2010, 07:57 PM
You're right, but I'd forgotten how utterly anti-any kind of political action/standing up for your rights Britain is. It's perceived as a joke in too many quarters, as in the comment you've pulled out (which I think is a fairly widespread opinion).


I think its the same every where there are people reliant on the status quo.
If unfairness/corruption or whatever suits you and your job, your alot less likely to stand up and very quick to put down those that do.

swears
21-11-2010, 11:43 PM
i found this comment on the guardian website.

Shermanator

18 November 2010 2:45PM

Give me a break.

Stop trying to intellectualize and justify your nonsense.

Learn a skill, clean yourself get off the bottle and get a job. I assure you your life will improve and you will no longer see the need for these ridiculous protests.

And pay £9k a year for the skills needed to get most decent jobs.

Tyro
25-11-2010, 01:55 PM
Something that the media haven't really focused on is the removal of The Education Maintenance Allowence:



From: http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs
For the first time I can recall, schoolchildren have taken to the streets, many concerned over the removal of the Education Maintenance Allowance (EMA), that allows sixth formers from low income households up to £30 a week if they remain in school.


From: http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/EducationAndLearning/14To19/MoneyToLearn/EMA/index.htm
EMA to close to new applicants
EMA will close to new applicants in England from January 2011. Learner support funds will be available through schools, colleges and training providers to help students who most need it to continue in learning. If you currently get EMA you will continue to receive it for the rest of this academic year, but you will not receive it next academic year



Yesterday a lot of the protesters in London were there in response to this issue.When I arrived in Whitehall at about 5PM another group had formed and were facing off the police to the north of the 'kettled' demonstrators.A fair number of them were disenfranchised working class youth and the confrontation which ensued {and spilled out into Trafalgar Square and The Strand} had the feel of the skirmishes that you see at carnival.I think we are about see major unrest on the scale of Brixton and Toxteth in the 80's.The inner cities are a tinderbox which will inevitably flare up once the cuts start to bite.

>>PEOPLE GETTING ANGRY>>

Mr. Tea
25-11-2010, 02:47 PM
Occupation still in force at my old college...same it was when I took part 11 years ago. :D

Tyro
25-11-2010, 03:26 PM
Some good footage filmed amongst the demonstrators yesterday

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/video/2010/nov/24/london-student-protests?intcmp=239


Conspiracy surrounding the abandoned police van in Whitehall :

http://www.sumpter.org.uk/?p=300

nomos
25-11-2010, 04:07 PM
Same thing happened at the G20 this year in Toronto: cruiser inexplicably left in an intersection, then predictably, descended upon, set ablaze, and turned into an icon of 'violent protest.'

http://twitpic.com/207nez

computer_rock
03-12-2010, 02:44 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDEZ2h41t0I

sufi
04-12-2010, 02:52 PM
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/dec/03/uk-uncut-protests-undercover-police - undercover surveillance of protesters against the 'urban myth'of vodaphone tax evasion

i heard last week, a 100% credible account (directly from a well known freelance journo) of this (http://www.irr.org.uk/2010/november/ha000037.html)demo against group 4/g4s killers of Jimmy Mubenga amongst others
http://savageclown.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/ministry-of-justice.jpg?w=500&h=333

apparently as the march arrived at Marsham Street 4 'black block' types showed up from nowhere, sticking out like sore thumbs from the other demonstrators,
and suddenly, lo & behold, from the opposite direction there's a group 4 van, which the agents provocateurs immediately set about, encouraging everyone to get in there, until they were told to f off by the genuine demonstrators

same story, with photos, here: http://savageclown.wordpress.com/2010/11/14/twelve-eleven-ten/

nomos
04-12-2010, 03:41 PM
where should i be looking for decent reporting on all of this? the news over here isn't touching it. i'm mainly getting updates and links from twitter and seeing the odd story on the bbc and guardian sites. and some blog posts.

crackerjack
04-12-2010, 04:53 PM
Polly Toynbee's next column should be fun. She was apparently manhandled out of the Topshop demo.

mistersloane
04-12-2010, 04:53 PM
where should i be looking for decent reporting on all of this? the news over here isn't touching it. i'm mainly getting updates and links from twitter and seeing the odd story on the bbc and guardian sites. and some blog posts.

Schnews

http://www.schnews.org.uk/index.php

and Indymedia

are both good but biased and on-the-streets. Guardian is doing pretty well at the moment, it works best as an opposition paper.

There's also fitwatch.org.uk for the really paranoid, it's fun though.

crackerjack
04-12-2010, 04:55 PM
where should i be looking for decent reporting on all of this? the news over here isn't touching it. i'm mainly getting updates and links from twitter and seeing the odd story on the bbc and guardian sites. and some blog posts.

this is a very handy Twitter account - been organising the Vodafone and Topshop demos among other things

@UKuncut

nomos
04-12-2010, 05:44 PM
^^ good stuff. thank you.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrgzpPvJxmQ

"we are no longer that post-ideological generation..."

adruu
09-12-2010, 05:15 PM
jesus just turned on beeb and the cutest cunt copper was on there

crackerjack
09-12-2010, 06:30 PM
Say cheese (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-etV57xZ4_I&feature=player_embedded)

sufi
09-12-2010, 11:55 PM
snaps from it (http://infinitethought.cinestatic.com/index.php/5501/)

HMGovt
10-12-2010, 12:01 AM
Kids of today, eh, effectively and imaginatively protesting
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRKcPZt61SQ

mistersloane
10-12-2010, 12:14 AM
soooooooo pretty, oh so pretty

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f119/mistersloane/fire1.jpg

hucks
10-12-2010, 10:24 AM
I know it's probably not technically an accurate description, but I quite like that Paul Mason on Newsnight called it the Dubstep Rebellion.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/newsnight/paulmason/2010/12/9122010_dubstep_rebellion_-_br.html

baboon2004
10-12-2010, 11:07 AM
I know it's probably not technically an accurate description, but I quite like that Paul Mason on Newsnight called it the Dubstep Rebellion.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/newsnight/paulmason/2010/12/9122010_dubstep_rebellion_-_br.html

There was some good dubstep there, feeling the earth of Parliament Sq vibrate to the bass was pleasant.

Did anyone get trapped in after the riot police arrived? We passed them arriving as we left - scary bastards.

grizzleb
10-12-2010, 01:04 PM
Was a great atmosphere there yesterday. The feeling of reclaiming parliament square was great. Some quality tunes getting busted out too. Hope this isn't the last.

Yeah baboon me and some people got caught in the kettle which started about 6ish I think. Got let out in groups of 3 around half 7ish. Taking everyones photograph as they left too.

Mr. Tea
10-12-2010, 01:11 PM
Got let out in groups of 3 around half 7ish. Taking everyones photograph as they left too.

Sounds like trying to get into a really arsey nightclub!

Were the cops wearing their numbers, just out of interest? I know there have been a lot of complaints about them (illegally) taking their numbers off when policing protests in the last few years.

grizzleb
10-12-2010, 01:17 PM
To be honest, I didn't notice. I think they were wearing their numbers where we were, I didn't see any actual violence up close though, aside from some bizzare fence chucking. Watched this one yob just attacking a concrete block for hours trying to break it up, I suppose to get rocks for throwing. He wasn't having much success. Proper caveman shit.

Funny old day it was. Felt like a festival at points. We managed to blag a bit for a good few joints off one guy too. Yas.

mistersloane
10-12-2010, 02:56 PM
Taking everyones photograph as they left too.

It's illegal for them to do that unless they arrest you, but of course that leads to the 'well I won't let you out without arresting you' conversation, but you can intimidate them into letting you out without the photo.

Sectionfive
11-12-2010, 03:56 AM
I know it's probably not technically an accurate description, but I quite like that Paul Mason on Newsnight called it the Dubstep Rebellion.

Anti-war dub getting rinsed I hope ?


lol at the top comment here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQPTJYkMGYI)





fd

droid
11-12-2010, 11:28 AM
Can we get a few thousand of your students over here to smash things up please? We cant pay them, but we dont have 'official' fees, and the unofficial fees are only 2000 euro a year.

luka
13-12-2010, 09:00 AM
Matt

I’m a student and discussing the fees aside, watching today’s footage I wanted nothing more than to see some of those “students” get a good thrashing. The BBC commentary has been cringe-worthy and one sided (As per usual). Absolute admiration for the bravery and determination of the officers out there today, some of those concrete blocks looked horrific.

I just hope this time around those in the upper echelons of police “management” and government appreciate the commitment displayed by the police in London today and ignore the excrement that is no doubt flowing onto the comments of the grauniad site.

luka
13-12-2010, 09:07 AM
inspectorgadget

Urinating on Churchill’s statue, attacking the Prince Of Wales car, throwing concrete blocks at police – this is a total GIFT for those in favour of a fees increase.

(this is actually true though)

luka
13-12-2010, 09:10 AM
#
larry doot

on reading some of the daily mail comments, the usual ‘police haters’ have come right around to our way of thinking..

i think a lot of people will accept damage to buildings, the odd officer injured.. BUT when you start defacing a statute of a man whose generally accepted as one of the greatest britons ever, and attack the heir to the throne, you’ve crossed a line..

thank you protesters..

hope all the bobbies are okay

#
on December 9, 2010 at 8:39 pm Ex Chief Inspector

Just seen HRH’s car – the protesters are quite lucky the prot team didn’t perform a ‘Beirut unload’ on them. I wonder what the US Secret Service would have done?

*
on December 9, 2010 at 9:01 pm TaffyMedic

I thought much the same. Good restraint on the part of the prot team, the temptation to perform said unload must have been strong. I guess all the training they go though does work. Much as it did with that moat monstrosity.

If it were US SS they wouldn’t have got within ten feet of the car.

luka
13-12-2010, 09:12 AM
its funny, kpunk linked to this police blog im getting the comments from thiking it would harden peoples attitudes agsint the police. for me its done precisely the opposite. after reading it i have a lot less sympathy for the protestors and a lot more for the police.

luka
13-12-2010, 09:13 AM
TacticalSupportInsp

Well, that was fun.

Just got back from our own local student demo – luckily it ended quite peacefully as Wetherspoons have started a 2 for 1 offer and they all buggered off to that.

luka
13-12-2010, 09:22 AM
on December 9, 2010 at 10:40 pm Dave the Dog

Pissed off? Well you certainly piss me off. Don’t presume to talk for ‘the public’, I’m the public and so are the officers and MOP’s who comment on here. You don’t talk for me by a long shot.
I’m an ex squaddy with 26 years in, ex Special Con and 20 years as a Local Authority Enforcement Officer.
A lot of the Police I work with actually agree with the sentiments of the proper protesters but like me and most of the public I speak to are turned more and more against these idiots (idiots being the kindest word I want to use) I think I’ve done my bit for my country and so have the serving Officers and ex Servicemen who are now in the job.
I wonder what all these little darlings have done or ever will do for the country that gives them the right to protest peacefully.

luka
13-12-2010, 09:23 AM
larry doot

i’ll start with a bit of a nice reply, i don’t think you’ll get many more..

the fact is many police officers agree with your cause, and we’re as pissed off as you at this government.. we agree with freedom of speech, and the right to protest.. but for us to stand there whilst people are trying to kill us, you better think again..

and i think there is only one side who ‘is not doing themselves favours’ today

luka
13-12-2010, 09:24 AM
it wasn’t high on my list of priorities when joining the police that I would be required to put my life on the line in order that these same spoilt morons and every assorted hanger-on, rent-a-mob swampy and general scrote that wants a ruck, can have a violent tantrum when told that things aren’t going to go my way.
Whilst I am on the subject I didn’t particularly join up to see my pension screwed and my pay and conditoons trampled by the same government either – but when I protested about it I managed to do it without trashing London.

luka
13-12-2010, 09:46 AM
Somerset01

I’m waiting for our pension and pay review, with interest. When the bricks are flying and thousands of student thugs. intent upon harm and destruction are marching on Parliament again, I wonder just how committed we would be to stopping them, when the Government have destroyed our terms of service.

I wonder if the government really understands, how close to the edge, the situation is?

luka
13-12-2010, 09:50 AM
BTW Zulu is one of my favourite films – anyone remember when they used to show it Monday afternoons at Notting Hill Carnival just to set the scene?

luka
13-12-2010, 10:39 AM
you live in a bubble of your own stupidity, doubtlessly confirmed with your canteen banter, public-funded boy’s toys and the occasional funny handshakes that put you above the actual law you supposedly – cough – ‘serve’.

Your mispelled, brain-dead replies would be welcome. I could do with having a laugh at our ‘finest’.

*
on December 12, 2010 at 11:33 pm Pocket Notebook Boy

Cheers, wedge.

It’s ‘misspelled’, by the way.

luka
13-12-2010, 10:41 AM
can't help thinking that's k-punk getting his spelling wrong and making a cunt of himself. why do the people on 'my side' have to be such an embaressment? still better than reminiscing about the good old days of watching zulu before going out to bash the fuzzy-wuzzies.... jesus, what a country.

Mr. Tea
13-12-2010, 11:12 AM
Don’t presume to talk for ‘the public’, I’m the public

I'm imagining this guy saying "I AM THE PUBLIC", the way Judge Dredd says "I AM THE LAW".

Tentative Andy
13-12-2010, 07:22 PM
its funny, kpunk linked to this police blog im getting the comments from thiking it would harden peoples attitudes agsint the police. for me its done precisely the opposite. after reading it i have a lot less sympathy for the protestors and a lot more for the police.

I've gone in the opposite direction, I agree pretty much 100% with kpunk on this one - which for me is a rarity to say the least.
I don't think of myself as a particularly anti-police kind of person in general, but a lot of the comments on that blog entry made me want to throw up. It was really sad and alarming to see (once they could hide behind the bare protection of a semi-anonymous user name) just how much some of the officers really relished getting the opportunity to use violence.
It was also obvious that, even before the demonstartions began, most of them had an indiscriminately antagonistic and contemptuous attitude towards the protestors. And I don't just mean all the daft 'away and get a wash' type comments, I also mean the outdated views of them as all being spoiled, priviliged, immature and from well-to-backgrounds - when of course higher education in this country has in recent times expanded drastically and includes many people from outside the middle classes.
When you put the two things together - the desire to use violence plus an image of the protestors as some mixture of spoiled brats and filthy animals - it's no wonder that it kicks off.

Edit: actually, even though it was written before the last protest, this post cover everything that I'd want to say about the issue and expresses it better:
http://k-punk.abstractdynamics.org/archives/011728.html

vimothy
13-12-2010, 10:20 PM
Andy--there are absurd levels of stereotyping going on on both sides, as far as I can see.

You could just as easily say, "When you put the two things together - the desire to use violence plus an image of the police as some mixture of uneducated thugs and jackbooted Nazis - it's no wonder that it kicks off."

Anyone see the recent documentary about policing the EDL protests in Bolton? Really interesting.

vimothy
13-12-2010, 10:23 PM
"While a good half of the march was undergraduates from the most militant college occupations - UCL, SOAS, Leeds, Sussex - the really stunning phenomenon, politically, was the presence of youth: bainlieue-style youth from Croydon, Peckam, the council estates of Islington."

^Is this true?

crackerjack
13-12-2010, 10:28 PM
"While a good half of the march was undergraduates from the most militant college occupations - UCL, SOAS, Leeds, Sussex - the really stunning phenomenon, politically, was the presence of youth: bainlieue-style youth from Croydon, Peckam, the council estates of Islington."

^Is this true?

Yep, a lot of school/college age people protesting about withdrawal of EMA. On Paul Mason's Newsnight report there was an older student talking about how prominent they were.

You not see the BBC describe a group of black & Asian kids as volatile?

and this http://www.rwdmag.com/2010/12/tempa-t-soundtracks-student-protests-in-london-video/

vimothy
13-12-2010, 10:33 PM
Not seen any news in months.

vimothy
13-12-2010, 10:36 PM
and this http://www.rwdmag.com/2010/12/tempa-t-soundtracks-student-protests-in-london-video/

WTF

crackerjack
13-12-2010, 10:46 PM
Dunno is Mos Dan ever posts here anymore but he was in the kettle and has blogged on this.

One paper report also mentioned the older guys who turned up with speakers & a system losing control of the main jack, kids playing grime etc from their iPod.

Shouldn't be a surprise. Obviously there are people here better qualified to speak on modern schools than me, but seems kids from all walks are being given a university-or-bust message these days. Lack of reliable, decently paid manual labour is bound to have that effect.

vimothy
13-12-2010, 10:48 PM
What with Wikileaks, war on the internets, and this, it's been an interesting week.

Tentative Andy
13-12-2010, 11:26 PM
Andy--there are absurd levels of stereotyping going on on both sides, as far as I can see.

You could just as easily say, "When you put the two things together - the desire to use violence plus an image of the police as some mixture of uneducated thugs and jackbooted Nazis - it's no wonder that it kicks off."


Yeah I wouldn't really disagree with this, and I'm trying to be careful not to slip into those stereotypes myself. But one of the things that depressed about that blog post was witnessing so many officers living up to the stereotypes, you know what I mean?
(In fairness, I think part of the subtext of that blog is that it's a place to congregate for officers that have an axe to grind with senior police management, so that maybe explains in part why there's so much agressivity and, um, extreme/unusual views there. But on the other hand there were just so many bad comments there, including from officers directly involved with the protests, that it's hard for me to accept it as totally unrepresentative.)

Actually Vim, while you're here I was wondering if you have any ideas as to why the sort of macroeconomic views you've outlined hear in the past don't seem to be getting through to the government and their advisors at all? It seems all I ever here in statements is "We have to cut spending, it's tough but there's no other option' blah blah.

vimothy
14-12-2010, 12:23 AM
Anonymous professional forums/blogs like that always have the same \b\-esque character, in my experience. This certainly isn't unique to the police, so I wonder about concluding that it is representative of them in some way.

No idea what the government is thinking. If anyone knows which blogs smart tories go to to argue about economics, I would like to hear it. Looks very back of the envelope. There are arguments for cutting the deficit, but they don't seem particularly persuasive and I don't really hear the govt making them. My feeling is that it's driven by the desire to put some ground between them and Labour, rather than any economic argument, but this is an uninformed guess.

Mr. Tea
14-12-2010, 01:02 AM
With regard to this coppers' blog, I think you have to bear in mind that the more extreme end of any group or faction is almost invariably going to be the most vocal - there could well be plenty of police, perhaps even some who were on duty at the demo, whose attitude is more "Well there are bound to be a few hardcore troublemakers but on the whole I think they have a point" who either don't feel compelled to state a moderate position or would feel uncomfortable saying it in front of colleagues with a more straightforward let's-bash-the-lazy-privileged-wastrels attitude. Bearing in mind also that many of them must have kids themselves and will be feeling the full effects of these outrageous fees a few years down the line, if they aren't already.

luka
14-12-2010, 02:48 AM
If you didn't already know some policemen relish violence then guess you've never seen them in action before, or even watched some of the videos of the protests where some are virtually salivating like attack dogs. i don't think it helps to dehumanise them or think of them as The Enemy really. to me that blog made it seem possible to get them on side to some degree. there was a lot of sympathy there and a lot of anger with the gov.

luka
14-12-2010, 02:59 AM
vimothy im intersted in what you said about there being no need to cut the deficit. ive never heard that argument put foward before but then i dont read the buisness pages. can you tell me why its not necessary. im a bit thick but i will understand if i concentrate hard.

vimothy
14-12-2010, 09:37 AM
Luka:

http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/include/uk_debt_full.png

http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/include/uk_interest_100.png

luka
14-12-2010, 09:39 AM
thank you vimothy. i will concentrate hard and try to see what that represents. i think i can guess though.
edit. ok. yes that is very clear. thank you. can i ask where you got them so i can send the link to my dad who i think would find it interesting.

vimothy
14-12-2010, 09:52 AM
No worries mate. Charts from here: http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/debt_brief.php

droid
14-12-2010, 10:12 AM
Yeah, I have a lot of sympathy for these guys:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUHzSQgayXY&feature=player_embedded

luka
14-12-2010, 10:21 AM
droid dont be silly. you havent read what i've written and you havent taken a deep breath before answering. you know perfectly well im not going to sit here and defend police manhandling some poor cerebal palsy fucker.

luka
14-12-2010, 10:25 AM
vim, my dad says thats irrelvant

The problem is not so much public debt as a proportion of GDP - our percentage is fairly OK by international standards. The problem is the deficit ie annual public expenditure is substantially greater than annual public income - I think the difference is about £12bn pa or 11%/12% of GDP. This is one of the higher deficits in the global economy and unsustainable.
is he right?

Mr. Tea
14-12-2010, 10:30 AM
If you didn't already know some policemen relish violence then guess you've never seen them in action before, or even watched some of the videos of the protests where some are virtually salivating like attack dogs. i don't think it helps to dehumanise them or think of them as The Enemy really. to me that blog made it seem possible to get them on side to some degree. there was a lot of sympathy there and a lot of anger with the gov.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to romanticise the police or pretend that none of them are thugs - I was just saying that there's bound to be a spectrum of good, bad and indifferent, and that a copper gleefully cracking skulls is a lot more conspicuous than a copper exercising restraint. That said, I guess the guys who really do love a ruck for its own sake are probably a lot more likely to end up policing an event like a big protest in Westminster.

Doesn't help that the wider legal system seems to consider the police as above the law much of the time, of course.

luka
14-12-2010, 10:35 AM
i agree. its a terribly tough job at times and nothing is gained by pretnedning otherwise.

vimothy
14-12-2010, 11:23 AM
vim, my dad says thats irrelvant


The problem is not so much public debt as a proportion of GDP - our percentage is fairly OK by international standards. The problem is the deficit ie annual public expenditure is substantially greater than annual public income - I think the difference is about £12bn pa or 11%/12% of GDP. This is one of the higher deficits in the global economy and unsustainable.

is he right?

Well, that depends on what he means. UK public debt to GDP is reasonably high by international standards (70% = 22nd highest in world), although it is low by historical standards. Looks like we both agree that a deficit is an excess of expenditure over revenue by definition, but I don’t know what to make of a statement like “the problem is the deficit, ie annual public expenditure is substantially greater than annual public income” In what sense is it the problem? In what sense does it make sense to think of a deficit in terms of sustainability? A deficit is a flow of net expenditure over time—it is transitory: next year it won’t exist. Problem disappears in a flash of smoke.

We do have one of the higher deficits as a % of GDP, he’s right about that. But otherwise, erm, no, in my opinion he’s talking arse. A strong recovery will eradicate the deficit. The real issue is how much of the national income (i.e. GDP) will we have to use up servicing the debt. You can think of the debt as the sum of all previous deficits, and the limiting case as the maximum debt burden you can carry while still making principal payments. The generic conservative fiscal Armageddon fantasy involves the interest payments exceeding our ability to pay, and consequently the debt spiraling out of control. Imagine a credit card where you can only afford to pay off half the interest payments every month. Every month the amount you owe is getting bigger and bigger. That is unsustainable.

Ireland is going to have to spend 10% of national income servicing its debt every year for decades. That is also unsustainable. We’re fine. Just a bit retarded.

luka
14-12-2010, 11:28 AM
this is all in the context of an argument ive been having with him.

vimothy
14-12-2010, 11:30 AM
Also, one of the unspoken truths in this whole debate is that if somebody saves, somebody else must dissave. If the government is going to save money then someone needs to spend it. E.g., collectively we aren’t necessarily going to save any money on tuition fees—we’re going to redistribute the costs away from the govt and towards individual students, but the actual costs haven’t changed.

luka
14-12-2010, 11:39 AM
that seems like a very good point.

vimothy
14-12-2010, 11:49 AM
Chris Dillow:


[A]rguments for higher fees [that] are just nonsense:
1. “The nation can’t afford it.” But if taxpayers as a whole cannot afford to fund university tuition, then a subset of taxpayers can’t afford it either, especially as they will be paying higher interest rates than taxpayers generally.

droid
14-12-2010, 11:59 AM
Ireland is going to have to spend 10% of national income servicing its debt every year for decades. That is also unsustainable. We’re fine. Just a bit retarded.

Correction - not our debt, the debt of our banks.

STN
14-12-2010, 12:12 PM
Anyone seen that chiefy cartoon in the Mail? It's a bit shoddy, really.

vimothy
14-12-2010, 12:12 PM
^^Same thing now, innit?

droid
14-12-2010, 12:18 PM
^^Same thing now, innit?

Hopefully not all of it, despite what the cretins in Govt and the EU have tried to do.

vimothy
14-12-2010, 12:21 PM
Dude, you're taking one for the team and we're all very grateful.

Two best articles I've read on Ireland recently:

Eichengreen (http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2010/12/barry-eichengreen-ireland%25E2%2580%2599s-rescue-package-%25E2%2580%2593-disaster-for-ireland-bad-omen-for-the-eurozone.html)

O'Rourke (http://www.eurointelligence.com/index.php?id=581&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=2973&tx_ttnews[backPid]=901&cHash=484db55c3a)

Mr. Tea
14-12-2010, 12:25 PM
Also, one of the unspoken truths in this whole debate is that if somebody saves, somebody else must dissave. If the government is going to save money then someone needs to spend it. E.g., collectively we aren’t necessarily going to save any money on tuition fees—we’re going to redistribute the costs away from the govt and towards individual students, but the actual costs haven’t changed.

OK, that's obviously true, if by 'we' you mean the whole country. But the alternative is that fewer people end up going to university at all - that would represent a genuine saving, wouldn't it? Although whatever damage that ends up doing to the economy years down the line could wipe out that saving many times over...

vimothy
14-12-2010, 12:35 PM
By "we" I mean the whole country, yeah, and fewer people going would represent an immediate saving, though you are right to wonder whether the costs would ultimately offset this, since graduates earn more and therefore pay more tax on average over their lifetimes. Also, less investment in human capital might mean lower productivity and therefore lower real income.

droid
14-12-2010, 12:40 PM
Dude, you're taking one for the team and we're all very grateful.

Two best articles I've read on Ireland recently:

Eichengreen (http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2010/12/barry-eichengreen-ireland%25E2%2580%2599s-rescue-package-%25E2%2580%2593-disaster-for-ireland-bad-omen-for-the-eurozone.html)

O'Rourke (http://www.eurointelligence.com/index.php?id=581&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=2973&tx_ttnews[backPid]=901&cHash=484db55c3a)

lol. I dont think anyone really believes that. We're just kicking the can down the road. E-bonds sounded sensible, but were poh-pohed by the Germans.

Lets face it, we're looking at a euro wide default of some kind somewhere down the line.

Anyway back OT.

luka
14-12-2010, 01:00 PM
A strong recovery will eradicate the deficit.

i suppose the thing that springs to mind is a)will there be a strong recovery and
b)what if theres not?

vimothy
14-12-2010, 01:21 PM
We're just kicking the can down the road.

I actually agree with that, which is why I described it as unsustainable. Stay in your seats for the next screening at 10: Global Financial Meltdown Part II.


i suppose the thing that springs to mind is a)will there be a strong recovery and
b)what if theres not?

a) Probably not given all the cuts, but you never know; I read the year end BoE inflation report and manufacturing and residential construction are both rebounding strongly.

b) It depends. The govt sets tax rates but actual tax revenue is a function of income at those rates. 100% of nothing is still nothing. So the revenue the govt receives is not fully under its control. And to an extent the same is true of transfers. The more the govt cuts the more it will have to pay out as benefits. So it's possible that the govt could drastically cut spending but end up with the same deficit and lower GDP (see also: Ireland).

Another way to look at it is that at present the govt's deficit is the corporate sector's surplus. If there is no recovery then the corporate sector is unlikely to want to invest its retained earnings. And if it continues to earn more than it spends (i.e. run a surplus), then by definition someone else must spend more than they earn (i.e. run a deficit). So without a rise in corporate investment, some kind of deficit is probably inevitable--though it might be carried by the household sector rather than the govt.

crackerjack
14-12-2010, 03:34 PM
Anyone seen that chiefy cartoon in the Mail? It's a bit shoddy, really.

You mean the one accompanying the Littlejohn column mocking Jody McIntyre as Andy (or is it Lou?) out of Little Britain.

I've just broken my PCC complaint cherry on that filth.

If you fancy doing likewise go here. (http://www.pcc.org.uk/complaints/makingacomplaint.html) The
relevant breaches are 5.i and 12.i

Twit pic of the piece here (http://i53.tinypic.com/2e48zr5.jpg), though if you want to make a complaint you'll need the URL for the original (today's Littlejohn piece, underneath whatever shite he said about the bomber in Sweden)

vimothy
14-12-2010, 03:59 PM
I like "Dubstep Rebellion", BTW.

K-Punk must be very excited.

luka
15-12-2010, 07:32 AM
i cant think of anything worse than a dubstep rebellion, particularly one with mark-k-punk standing on the sidelines with a megaphone, berating everyone about oed-e-o-pods and cold rationalism or specualtive realism or spinozan dogging or whatever it is this week....
the other thing i want to ask you vimothy and forgive me for demanding so much personal attention is why are you the only person i have seen anywhere put foward this argument? can you direct me to some articles or soemthing?

vimothy
15-12-2010, 01:18 PM
K-Punk's post on the protest has some awesome lines:


In one of the dream-like transitions that are becoming increasingly common in the new atmosphere...


What Cameron doesn't grasp, doesn't want to grasp, is the way that the fees are only the immediate cause of the new militancy. What has been provoked is a generalised discontent with nothing less than capitalist realism itself.


5.30 PM, December 2nd. Neoliberalism isn't working--I've been stuck on Dartford station for ninety minutes.


Paul Mason talks of a "dubstep rebellion" [but]... Dan Hancox is surely right: it wasn't dubstep that was being played last Thursday but "rnb, bashment, road rap, american hiphop and - albeit only once or twice - grime".


what we can hear exemplified, in fact, is the disengagement from politics that Jeremy Gilbert has persuasively argued was typical of the 90s hardcore continuum.


What we've grown accustomed to is a split between leftist political commitments and the most vibrant, experimental dance musics. No doubt this is an aspect of capitalist realism.


We've broken out of the end of history onto terra incognita. What's certain is that the old world is disintegrating...

"The New Atmosphere": Awesome.

Dunno who to recommend re the deficit though luka. It seems to me that everyone is making this argument, but that can't be right or you'd be familiar with it. Krugman and DeLong are both pretty solid, though not focused on the UK. I'll have a think about this.

Couple of good articles:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/10dabd3a-dbba-11df-a1df-00144feabdc0.html#axzz18BOAdAwS

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/oct/19/spending-cuts-deficit-growth

First is by the conservative Wolf at the conservative FT, the second is by a prof of economics at Cambridge. The Guardian article is probably a bit easier to read and a good primer on the arguments for a more literate fiscal policy strategy.

baboon2004
16-12-2010, 04:32 PM
I've just broken my PCC complaint cherry on that filth.

If you fancy doing likewise go here. (http://www.pcc.org.uk/complaints/makingacomplaint.html) The
relevant breaches are 5.i and 12.i


Definitely worth doing, but in some ways complaining about the Mail in itself is like complaining about the fact that some people are arseholes - they still continue to print filth and always will. Still, good to flag it up for as many people as possible to read.

In a way it's less noxious than that BBC interview with Jody McIntyre, as the BBC operate with this veneer of impartiality (despite the fact that, being a state broadcaster, its support for the state isn't surprising, as McIntyre himself pointed out), which I think many more people buy into. Better way of putting it - lots of non-fascist and in other ways pretty spot-on people would think the BBC impartial, while that's not true of the Mail.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXNJ3MZ-AUo - here's the interview, and links to relevant complaints forms etc.

unknown soulja
20-12-2010, 12:23 PM
Frustratingly looks like the Beeb just arent going to repsond (further than Kevin Bakhurst's initial dismissal) to complaints about Jody Mcintyre...

crackerjack
21-12-2010, 11:32 AM
In a way it's less noxious than that BBC interview with Jody McIntyre.

Yeah, I complained about that one too :) It was a quiet week...

gumdrops
09-02-2011, 09:10 AM
thought this was a good article.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/feb/08/conservatives-tradition-attack-british-heritage

baboon2004
09-02-2011, 12:39 PM
http://righttowork.org.uk/2011/02/peoples-convention-leaflet-and-registration-form/

crackerjack
09-02-2011, 05:55 PM
Brilliant

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cartoon/2011/feb/09/steve-bell-bankers-george-osborne#start-of-comments

IdleRich
09-02-2011, 06:29 PM
Nice of them to explain the cartoon in the headline for... who.... those who can read but can't see pictures?


George Osborne cuts only the fat cats' toenails - and even then they make a big deal of it

crackerjack
13-02-2011, 12:08 PM
This could be a little embarrassing. (http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/work/article.html?in_article_id=522795&in_page_id=53928)


David Cameron was accused of 'gross insensitivity' last night after it was revealed that internships with City hedge funds were sold to wealthy Tories' children for thousands of pounds to raise cash for the party.
At the Conservatives' Black and White Party, millionaire Tory supporters paid about £3,000 each for their children to have the golden chance of spending a week or two with a number of top finance companies and banks.

If they do well and win a full-time job, they could join the ranks of City tycoons who earn multi-million-pound bonuses.