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DannyL
20-03-2011, 11:40 AM
I've been listening to loads of hip hop again lately after a long time off. Really enjoying rediscovering it all again and being impressed by Lil B, Kendrick Lamar, the new e40 and the like. Am really feeling it, but have to ask where's the homegrown talent at? The last UK MCs who blew me away were Trim and Durty Goodz - is there anyone out there even appraoching their level who I've been sleeping on? Anyone? Even if not, who do you rate right now?

(an aside - Trim reminds me of Lil B a bit, the way he lets a dememnted persona emerge in the music) Been listening to a fw things in the Road Rap thread - can't say I'm exactly feeling K-Koke, though the Sneakbo cat story is possibly the greatest thing I've ever read.

Phaedo
20-03-2011, 03:15 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pppa--xBxkc

routes
20-03-2011, 03:39 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iMM1rcyufM&feature=related

routes
20-03-2011, 03:40 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njrxzoFHw_U&feature=related

Benny B
20-03-2011, 03:52 PM
The last UK MCs who blew me away were Trim and Durty Goodz -.

same here. Pretty much all the newer mcs I've heard since then have sounded too samey to me. like, I think P Money is technically and lyrically a very good MC but he doesn't have the same uniqueness of personality in his voice as the older generation of MCs like Wiley, D Double, Dizzee etc.

When he's on form I would say Wiley is still the best though.

edit: Just remembered the Funky MCs I like: Shantie, Topsee, Dream, Hot-S, even Depeo. They may not be as technically good as a lot of the top Grime MCs, but they make up for it with personality, charm, charisma and individuality, things that have been lacking in Grime for a while now. ie; they don't all sound the same.

muser
20-03-2011, 04:02 PM
that last wiley vid is mentall!! hope that gets put out somewhere. been rinsing sneakbo's mixtape recently from road rap thread,


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vYI70uIKvM

DannyL
20-03-2011, 05:29 PM
Cheers for those links, the Wiley vids are sick. I've never really listened to him much beyond the odd few tracks but yeah, those clips are lethal.

The Sneakbo track is nice but lyrically, I think it's pretty weak - they seem to be reaching for the most obvious rhymes possible. Felt the same about the K Koke clips posted in the other thread, though I found one on line which was a bit better. I don't know - With US hip hop, there's a tradition of lyrical dexterity, which seems to be totally absent with regards to all but the better UK MCs. I find it almost surprising that this is missing because firstly, as it seems so obvious to me that (for instance) what Wiley is doing in those clips above takes things to the next level. Secondly, you can hear the dexterity and personality with the old UK reggae MCs, so why have these guys dropped the ball?

DannyL
20-03-2011, 05:33 PM
I guess this is me showing my ignorance of the music to a degree though - seems like it's got different starting points, trying to do something different, though I'm not sure I get what exactly. I hate it when I start sounding all "oh back in my day".

slackk
20-03-2011, 05:33 PM
I think technically Fix Dot'm is probably the best out of the road rap thing.

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/4KnRvIY_-bk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

There are loads of good fresh MCs out there at the moment I think, I'll try and post some more stuff later.

D Double E remains the best British MC for me though, always will

AZIZA
20-03-2011, 05:58 PM
D Double E remains the best British MC for me though, always will

Doesn't require to much thought really. Wiley, Trim, Doogz OG too..

DannyL
20-03-2011, 06:09 PM
D Double E remains the best British MC for me though, always will

Thanks man. Gonna get busy with some of those "Grimetapes presents" shows now...

Dr Awesome
20-03-2011, 06:17 PM
How can it be anyone but SkibaDee?

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<object width="480" height="390"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube-nocookie.com/v/goDyd-fV2OA?fs=1&amp;hl=en_GB"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube-nocookie.com/v/goDyd-fV2OA?fs=1&amp;hl=en_GB" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="390"></embed></object>

*lightah* :D

Sick Boy
20-03-2011, 06:26 PM
you can hear the dexterity and personality with the old UK reggae MCs, so why have these guys dropped the ball?

It's that trap music thing. That whole "I'm a gangster, not a rapper" shtick. The less thought and effort you put into your music implies that it is only a side hustle to your main hustle of selling coke or whatever. Made popular by Young Jeezy, Gucci Mane, and similar artists from that whole wave of rappers out of the South. I imagine these guys have "dropped the ball" because they are inspired by that style.

routes
20-03-2011, 07:27 PM
he's obviously talented but the last few tunes i've heard by goodz have been really boring so i've stopped bothering. anyone link me otherwise?

DannyL
20-03-2011, 08:07 PM
(As an aside, I think Gucci can rap. Not in a Kool G Rap kinda way but he's got some great bars in almost every song I've heard by him - and tons of personality as well. If UK MCs were imitating him, I think I'd be feeling it more. I get what you mean though).

luka
21-03-2011, 05:33 AM
k koke is obviouisly the most technically advanced road rap guy. its stupid to argue otherwise. im not arguing hes the most likeable. the only one close is malik from up north and thats a different genereation. old school uk hiphop guy. but sickboy is right with what he says. being shit is part of the point. sneakbo is deep tho. i think slakk dislikes th white ones on principle which is fair enuff. i wouldnt rap even if i was good, cos i am white, i dont think its appropriate, but thats a side issue.
my heros are
navigator
det
ragga twins
remadee
5-o
koe gee
yankee
skiba
shabba d
fearless
stevie hypeer (rip)
moose
gq
preshus
bushkin
mighty mo
rodney p
taipanic
mc d
demon boyz
shark major
creed
psg
stormin
hyper
d double
kano
scoobee
doogz
titch
trim
wiley
gods gift
riko

gonna contine this in a sec, gotta do something....

luka
21-03-2011, 05:53 AM
asher senator
rebel mc
smily culture
junior dangereous
tippa irie
krispy 3
daddy freddy
ty
giggs
silver bullet
k koke
sneakbo
youngstar
fix dot'm
margs
skinnnyman
tempz
chronik
bruza
all-in-one
skepta
jme
frisco
strider
chippy
dirty dangerous
top cat
general levy

luka
21-03-2011, 06:03 AM
macka b
glamma kid
mc neat
peter king
kamanchi sly
krept and konan
rootz
blade
overlord x
roots manuva
dizzee (this is maybe the right answer, realistically, although im tempted to say top cat, or wiley for the new lvel of realness he brought to it. heartless would be right up there too for sheer inspiration)
demon
rsg's
kalashnekoff
pyrelli
sway
big nastee
knightz of da round table

luka
21-03-2011, 07:37 AM
viper
b-live
jamakabi (i likd him, not many other did tho)
fearless
ic3 (bit too much like dett tho)
mc mc
ghetto (love him or hat him you have to say he don a lot. my nine works like my mind works)
double s i think is underrated i like that guy, the rest of marvell too but him in particular
jookie mondo
asher d
romeo
no lay
kie
lethal b
neeko
but not ossie thanks very much
discarda (nah, not really)
kamanchi sly aka unknown mc, actually i dont lik hijack for the mcs but we'll include them anyhow
ckp
tek
dt
munchee
i just remmbered somone really important then instantly firgot him again.

luka
21-03-2011, 07:41 AM
you hav to put jammer in thre for hype too

luka
21-03-2011, 07:44 AM
big h
if you say conrad you ar a joker
g-force
trig and myth
bossman and them lot from south
tempman
that angry kid out of pdc
bully from dsn
big ted
fem fel
the other blade not the one i said before

luka
21-03-2011, 08:05 AM
TENOR FLY
sorry i forgot you!

tyranny
21-03-2011, 08:50 AM
No mentions of 2Shy or SP:MC luka?

Easily my favourite DNB heads the last five years or so...

luka
21-03-2011, 09:14 AM
i stopped listeing to that music in 1995 so nah, i never evn heard of those guys. no offence. im 31 tho.

matt b
21-03-2011, 09:26 AM
<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/fkC45z4UXVc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

;)

tyranny
21-03-2011, 09:46 AM
i stopped listeing to that music in 1995 so nah, i never evn heard of those guys. no offence. im 31 tho.



http://www.reprisemusicgroup.com/agency/audio/Loxy_Hardware_April_2009.mp3

I'm 32

Dr Awesome
21-03-2011, 09:48 AM
No mentions of 2Shy or SP:MC luka?

Easily my favourite DNB heads the last five years or so...

SP has moved beyond both dnb and mc'ing really. He's in his own little space in terms of quality I'd say; but he's ultimately tied to MC'ing over music that isn't designed to have an MC flow over it.

*edit; and by designed, I mean it's not MC focused or in any way necessary to have an MC*

gumdrops
21-03-2011, 09:50 AM
grime -
trim
dee
dizzee (2002-03 era)
more fire (not fire camp)
riko
gods gift (around 2003)
kano (up to around 2005)
stush
doogz - still an amazing mc technically but i dont warm to him much anymore - but he was amazing back in the mid 00s.
ghetto
griminal
jookie mundo (just for that verse he did on wileys playtime is over album)

i dunno, too many to name. could argue they were all at their peak back then and now dont demand your attention quite as much as they did but i still like most of the guys i mentioned. p money has that sort of thing where you can tell hes always trying quite hard but i wouldnt say he was 'try hard' if that makes sense and he has made a lot of the best grime vocals of recent times so i would say he def deserves a place here.

uk hip hop
rodney p
bionic
mc d
cant think who else just now
do like roots manuva but think hes a bit soft at times
(all my ukhh names will be old tbh)

dont know enough about road rap to name anyone - i wouldnt put giggs in any list like this. id add warrior queen too - she wrecks pretty much every track she does doesnt she? a very underrated uk mc i would say.

Dr Awesome
21-03-2011, 09:54 AM
Oh and Jehst from back in the day was pretty clever on the UK-Hiphop tip...

gumdrops
21-03-2011, 10:01 AM
ukhh wise, id say demon boyz too just for glimity glamity (proper uk dancehall lineage there - google it if youve never heard it before). dont like much else of what they did though. good beats though. fallacy is often overlooked also.

i forgot to mention uk apache for jungle mcing.
cant believe i forgot ms dynamite.

luka
21-03-2011, 10:35 AM
northside is demon boyz best song.

gumdrops
21-03-2011, 10:42 AM
glimity glamity is better. they sound like kane/g rap impersonators on northside.

matmustard
21-03-2011, 10:52 AM
northside is demon boyz best song.
you've said that before and you were wrong the first time
<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/uc0-Fup9mqQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

gumdrops
21-03-2011, 11:00 AM
that one is quite good, yeah.

this guy amazingly was actually from london, battersea i think, but he spent some time in new york and came back sounding like big l lol. really convincing though. and he was good, if someone with a severe identity crisis.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4nvBIe52Qs&feature=related

paolo
21-03-2011, 02:33 PM
John Barnes

Corpsey
21-03-2011, 02:41 PM
A lot of UK MCs have pretty shit voices, they sound whiny or anonymous, or anonymously whiny. This is the case with a lot of Road Rap that I've heard - the beats are good, the lyrics are alright, there might be some nice punchlines in there etc. but the MCs voice is just a bit boring.

I almost get the sense that, whereas in grime MCs accentuated aggression/idiosyncrasy of tone/delivery, in Road Rap there seems to be a conscious effort to drain delivery of emotion - maybe to project the image of cold hearted badman or something? Or maybe just because it fits in with the production. Actually I think this contributes to the overall sound and atmosphere of the music (I.E. Roots - Cruddy Freestyle is entirely generic but I love it), but it also makes it seem a bit dreary to me. Giggs has that imposing deep voice that makes him stick out within the scene (although I listened to his latest mixtape the other day and his voice bored me after a few tracks too).

American hip-hop seems to have a lot more range in vocal/production styles, but then it would, since it comes from such a huge range of places within a gigantic country, while Road Rap I suppose mostly comes from London (and probably from a few small areas within London). Grime MCs seemed to have that range of delivery/voice/style, though - Wiley, D Double, Goodz, Trim etc. are all instantly recognisable as well as being technically brilliant. To me Grime is/was the real UK Hip-Hop; it wasn't a knock-off of an American original. I can't dismiss road rap as being that (although it seems clearly more in thrall to American hip-hop than grime was) cos I haven't heard enough.

I love UK MCs in jungle, garage, funky and grime, though. And some UK Hip-Hop MCs are good too - Roots Manuva, Kalashnikov... But yeah, I can't really get past this notion that UK Hip-Hop is essentially a lesser version of American hip-hop.

sufi
21-03-2011, 03:16 PM
was wondering , not really apropos this thread but
whatever happen to shinehead?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpEsActkaYQ&feature=fvwrel

unclerico
21-03-2011, 03:26 PM
for me its d double e

or wiley

outraygeous
21-03-2011, 04:27 PM
Its to hard to say who is the best, they all have their own qualities. Even someone like Dan from Meridian had skills

Shyloc goes down as one of my faves tho.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BD7ULmlABvI

gumdrops
21-03-2011, 04:47 PM
theres got to be some ukhh guys im forgetting. thing is though i was youtubing old stuff like scientists of sound and even some mc mello i used to like and it just sounded a bit imitative. there was a post on the wires blog the other week about how this stuff is ripe for revival and while i agree just so ppl can see where tinie and dizzee or whoever's predecessors were, ukhh has not always been that great. still, some of those beats on old gunshot records are pretty exciting even if the rapping is a bit flat.

anyway, this is pretty classic -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGFhZU0DyWo
everyone on this is good. though having a sung chorus on a track like this is a bit lame.
youve yet to see the best of p....'
rodney p was great.

and as far as garage, ms dynamite makes most male mcs look crap here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obLroucuJfA

Corpsey
21-03-2011, 04:56 PM
It's that trap music thing. That whole "I'm a gangster, not a rapper" shtick. The less thought and effort you put into your music implies that it is only a side hustle to your main hustle of selling coke or whatever. Made popular by Young Jeezy, Gucci Mane, and similar artists from that whole wave of rappers out of the South. I imagine these guys have "dropped the ball" because they are inspired by that style.

This is what I was saying about road rap, didn't see your comment before. I love Gucci and Jeezy though. Maybe I have an anti-UK-MC prejudice.

alex
21-03-2011, 04:57 PM
John Barnes

/thread

Sectionfive
21-03-2011, 05:32 PM
Karl Matthews!

Surely there are loads from the 90s missing.

continuum
21-03-2011, 06:50 PM
Wiley's the best.


Some other notable MCs who haven't been mentioned yet:

Bassman
Juiceman
Trigga

continuum
21-03-2011, 07:09 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LHBF_3pEfE

continuum
21-03-2011, 07:26 PM
Bassline MCs

Trilla
Slick Don
Asher
Pantha
Kase
Saji B
MC Bonez
Deadly
Murkz
Tez Kid
Riekz
SG
K Dot
MnT
Bomma B
Recneps
J Star

Sick Boy
22-03-2011, 12:13 AM
I think Giggs deserves to be in this thread. I'm a little shocked at his absence tbh. If you asked me over a year ago, I probably would've disagreed too, but the point here is that I was wrong.

Oh, nevermind, I can see Luka included him. Good man.

petergunn
22-03-2011, 08:26 AM
I think Giggs deserves to be in this thread. I'm a little shocked at his absence tbh. If you asked me over a year ago, I probably would've disagreed too, but the point here is that I was wrong.

Oh, nevermind, I can see Luka included him. Good man.

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/IBcUoMpRAn8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

giggs sounds like a retard, and not like a cool retard like Gucci Mane (BITCH I MIGHT BE)...

i get that in the UK he is that guy currently, but he does not translate for me... in general UK mc's sound terrible when they have a superstrong US influence on their flow... only Dizzee sounds good to me as US influenced MC...

Amicose
22-03-2011, 08:35 AM
Gunna Dee, hands down

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0ubTBSOV4M#t=1m53s

OFF

Bunj
22-03-2011, 09:46 AM
Yung Meth deserves a claim outta the Road Rap guys. He's got that style that keeps me listening.

But realistically Wiley or shut up haha

FairiesWearBoots
22-03-2011, 09:51 AM
did no-one mention Tony Rotten yet?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-Yl8M2KBAQ

DannyL
22-03-2011, 01:00 PM
With road rap, is there a pirate radio connection with any of the MCs? I get the sense that the best of grime MCs are so good because of years of rehearsal on air. Perhaps the absence of that kind of testing ground is why some of these guys are a bit lame?

I don't know the music well enough to completley dismiss it, be but have been underwhelmed with what I've heard via this place to say the least.

Benny B
22-03-2011, 04:22 PM
With road rap, is there a pirate radio connection with any of the MCs? I get the sense that the best of grime MCs are so good because of years of rehearsal on air. Perhaps the absence of that kind of testing ground is why some of these guys are a bit lame?

.

Thats what I've always thought about road rap too. Some of these lot should organise a radio station. There seems to be a lack of known DJs pushing these sounds too (would love to be proved wrong here). There's no equivalent of say, a Mak 10 or Slimzee in the scene. But then, the backing tracks aren't really conducive to having that type of DJ set.

All that said, US Hip Hop has had a long tradition of DJing skills (maybe not so much nowadays), so maybe this kind of development would elevate road rap from where it is now. Radio stations+riddims+DJs+MCs = the most exciting and complete experience for London-music for me.

CrowleyHead
22-03-2011, 04:30 PM
Giggs has great potential though. When I first heard him, I was dismissive, but he's got a great voice. Lyrics are a little 'eh', but he can get better (look at Rick Ross's evolution). If he learns how to swing a bit more, maybe gets beats that are less Lugerish and maybe a bit less aggro, he could peak. Unfortunately, his big problem is he's listening to trap rap and that style's not so in as it was years ago...

Big H totally embodies this. A lot of UK MC's have totally rigid flows, which doesn't work on trap-rap like it does on grime.

slackk
22-03-2011, 04:30 PM
It's not a pirate driven scene so there's no need for that sort of DJ. the hosts sort out distribution & pressing for the most part, that's why they're involved. But to say they need pirates goes against everything the scene's came up on really.

It's fine how it is, I think.

Benny B
22-03-2011, 04:37 PM
Yeah I think you're right, its not really that sort of scene and its pointless to wish it was something else other than what it is. But I suppose thats probably the main reason I haven't connected with it as much as I did with grime. Like, I loved Boy in da corner as a record, but I really really fell in love with Grime when I started downloading sets off grimetapes. it just added a whole extra dimension to the whole thing. And Danny had a point about how radio allows MCs to hone their skills. Practice hours innit.

gumdrops
22-03-2011, 04:39 PM
yeah the best you could hope for is a load of these guys getting on semtex or westwoods show and murdering a load of instrumentals for half an hour or something. they might be from london, but road rap guys only really care about hip hop, the pirates dont mean much to them. its about records first, freestyling second. the live element doesnt really come into it.

luka
23-03-2011, 01:51 AM
did no-one mention Tony Rotten yet?

yeah me, look how long that list is! i put him down as taipanic but maybe i misremembered his name. black twang. dettwork southeast.!

Corpsey
23-03-2011, 05:40 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HO6YCAZNFHI

Forgot about this one. I think 'Witness' http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTOSvEX-YeY and 'It's Murda' by Klash are my two favourite UKHH tunes.

muser
23-03-2011, 05:48 PM
I reckon Lewis Parker did some alright stuff aswell, noone mention London Posse? (aside from Rodney P)

I think Daddy Freddy deserves a mention just for getting on Record Breakers.

benjybars
23-03-2011, 06:27 PM
wiley. obviously. (dizzee at his best was better but he didn't last long enough)


also, different kettle of fish, but no denying how much i've enjoyed Poax, Crazy D and Task over the last few years.

Sectionfive
23-03-2011, 06:46 PM
Poax and Asbo are the only two that actually add something to sets.

The rest ...

Sick Boy
23-03-2011, 08:53 PM
Doogz

The thing about Durrty Goodz is that although there is no denying he is one of the UK's most technically gifted MC's and, if you don't want to use the word creative, at least one of its most ambitious, I find that he still finds a way to make some terribly boring and stale music. He's kind of like the Mos Def of grime.

daddek
23-03-2011, 09:05 PM
This is what I was saying about road rap, didn't see your comment before. I love Gucci and Jeezy though. Maybe I have an anti-UK-MC prejudice.

the uk coke rap guys take the emotionless and unpracticed delivery to a further extreme than the us ones tho.. to the point where they can actually sound lobotomized. I actually quite like it, it has an ice cold intensity about it.. but yes it certainly falls flat on its face sometimes, especially on youtube for some reason. It takes a lot of swag to pull it off on camera. Funny how they've taken the exact inverse approach to the previous ukhh mcs, which was to distinguish themselves from US rappers by intensifying the emotional delivery, all very angsty and shouty.

Personally i prefer the later, coke rap-ish school. It's the first time uk rap has sounded like it didnt have an identity crisis imo. late90s-00s ukhh was very studenty, preachy & traditionalist, mcs sounded somewhere between krs one and the pub, beatwise it was endless repetitions of a mid 90s NY sound, it was quite suburban in a way that it wasnt comfortable with. For the most part, it just didnt sound authentic to itself. Whereas Krept & konan, giggs, etc, they just appear to have less difficulty defining themselves.

Grime helped sever the link between old ukhh and new i think, as grime absorbed all the school kid mcs, while alienating all the old ukhh ones. But the problem that grime mcs face is that when they try to work outside of uk rave music.. eg do a crossover rap tune.. your left with these ex-rave dibby-dibby delivery devices that just sound a bit naff when hung out to dry over a slow hip hop beat. Even worse when dnb mcs try to do it.

Sick Boy
23-03-2011, 09:23 PM
the uk coke rap guys take the emotionless and unpracticed delivery to a further extreme than the us ones tho.. to the point where they can actually sound lobotomized. I actually quite like it, it has an ice cold intensity about it..

I totally agree with this. I don't think it can really can be said that rappers that Giggs and Fix Dot'm are unoriginal. Even the most lackadaisical of the southern trap rappers still have a certain rowdy, tear-the-club-up crunk energy to them that is typical to Southern music, whereas the UK guys reduce the style down to a steely-eyed nihilism. It takes the trap rap attitude but combines it with the cold, calculation of some classic New York hardcore rap and mixes it with a very distinct UK hood swagger. At times, like you said, it can just be emotionless, lifeless garbage, but when it's good, it is like nothing else out there.

DannyL
24-03-2011, 10:14 AM
but when it's good, it is like nothing else out there.

Linkz pls.

I listened to some more K-Koke stuff last night, better than I first thought, lyrically. I don't know how much bad man attitude I could tolerate over repeated listens but that's a prob with any hip op derived music, obviously.

luka
24-03-2011, 11:06 AM
I think Daddy Freddy deserves a mention just for getting on Record Breakers.

he did gt a mention. ive got a good westwood freestyle with him and keith murray togethr on tape somewhere.

JWoulf
24-03-2011, 02:46 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAmaW27EF5s

Sick Boy
24-03-2011, 03:11 PM
Linkz pls.

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/ryDKisEh-FQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
out to mistersloane!

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/E7iVKTCFfyY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
out to slackk!

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/2JrJSVR_1Uc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
I think in order to understand Giggs you really just need to listen to this until you like it

Corpsey
24-03-2011, 03:14 PM
the uk coke rap guys take the emotionless and unpracticed delivery to a further extreme than the us ones tho.. to the point where they can actually sound lobotomized. I actually quite like it, it has an ice cold intensity about it..

Personally i prefer the later, coke rap-ish school. It's the first time uk rap has sounded like it didnt have an identity crisis imo. late90s-00s ukhh was very studenty, preachy & traditionalist, mcs sounded somewhere between krs one and the pub, beatwise it was endless repetitions of a mid 90s NY sound, it was quite suburban in a way that it wasnt comfortable with. For the most part, it just didnt sound authentic to itself. Whereas Krept & konan, giggs, etc, they just appear to have less difficulty defining themselves.


Great post, and I think I'm in agreement with you on most of this. I was listening to 'Hard in Da Paint' by Waka yesterday and realised that he doesn't actually shout as much as I thought he did, it's more that he's got this very husky and somehow quite detached voice. Compare this to Wiz Kalifah over Lex Luger beats - I thought the main difference was in volume/energy but (leaving aside Waka's ad-libs/ violent/street subject matter) I think its actually something to do with the quality of his voice - Wiz sounds too chirpy and excitable, it doesn't fit the imposing ultra-agginess of the beats for me. Getting back around to road rap, that version of Hard in Da Paint by Sneakbo that Slackk posted was one of the most convincing versions of it I've heard outside of Waka, and I think it's that detached, calm-in-the-storm delivery that makes it work.

Corpsey
24-03-2011, 03:21 PM
VIDEO SPLURGE


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgW6kuUDDp8


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1k4oU3hxur8

someone must have said PSG already, right?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKzc385G5wU


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3A08fCJjkBg


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHqmm6OLUb8


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lp7GE-HKb4

daddek
24-03-2011, 05:38 PM
PSG

funny how often he uses a fantastic freaks, wild style era delivery, I've never heard a uk rave mc do that.

continuum
24-03-2011, 07:00 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2cGa8AZpGs


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNIXZNjp4Gs
I love Baby Blue I don't care


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HS3HXr1nSM


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_sjlmNH4J4
Ny, NoLay, Lady Chann, Lady Leshurr, Lioness, Princess Nyah & Alex Mills

Sick Boy
24-03-2011, 07:18 PM
More ladies...

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/J-j79CEDQd4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


Shystie - Step Back

V

http://www.myspace.com/xtra08shystie/videos/video/3871541

I can't believe this video isn't on youtube!


<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/65AYSuMY7TM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

muser
24-03-2011, 07:49 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_sjlmNH4J4
Ny, NoLay, Lady Chann, Lady Leshurr, Lioness, Princess Nyah & Alex Mills

that show was huge

luka
25-03-2011, 04:53 AM
one guy i really regret leaving out is esco. i might go youtube splurge too....

luka
25-03-2011, 05:35 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q201kT9syiA
ESCO. INTENSITY.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NNfUXqmpws
SIMON SAYS UK REMIX WITH ROOTS MANUVA AND RODDERS.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLU7q8ssT64
GHETTO AT HIS BEST. FIRST VERSE.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxgtQSfP5Xo
Desert Storm - Mampi Swift - Stevie Hyper D, Ragga Twins, MC Moose, Five -O, Navigator


DID I SAY RAGGA TWINS? IF NOT IM DUMB.

luka
25-03-2011, 05:39 AM
DEMOLITION MAN
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COw2DOLL49I

luka
25-03-2011, 05:43 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-Yl8M2KBAQ
DETTWORK SOUTHEAST
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRu_OA0r0RM&feature=related
SKINNY- COUNCIL ESTATE OF MIND.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOxaNa0BpJg
first black twang thing i heard-queens heads
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoUljRB5V5Y
black twang-real estate

none of these songs are really all that good but i got a lot of affection for them.

luka
25-03-2011, 05:47 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDlsfslspIE
So Solid Crew Oldskool Sidewinder Valentine Showcase 2001

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJ4_xVQsx28
PAUG Vs Heartless Crew Destinys 2001

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCZUSAvzVIs
wiley vs kano lord of the mics

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pu30wl467oc
asher d vs dizzee on choice

Corpsey
25-03-2011, 12:39 PM
MAKE YOU TAKE ANNUAL LEEEEEAVE


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BthE1Rpe7Gs&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2rwNdl2ya8#t=06m20s

Tentative Andy
25-03-2011, 12:52 PM
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxgtQSfP5Xo
Desert Storm - Mampi Swift - Stevie Hyper D, Ragga Twins, MC Moose, Five -O, Navigator


DID I SAY RAGGA TWINS? IF NOT IM DUMB.

Ragga Twins over Terrorist on this - jeeeeeeze!!! :D

I love this thread but don't have much to add, my list would basically be the more predictable parts of everyone else's.

luka
28-03-2011, 05:38 AM
on the subject of road rap mc that sound actually genuinely retarded or brain damaged i want to have a littl moan about this new breed of sort of shouty angry rappers that half align themselves with road rap while simultaneously putting themselves above it. its mostly from watching some english frank videos in the weekend. im not into it. they are 'better' rappers in a lot of ways but i sort of hate them a lot. mic righteous i put in this category too. there are others but i am trying to avoid them. i prfer the retards.

paolo
28-03-2011, 08:44 PM
<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/aHOlWU7HQew" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Lyrically up there with the best of them for me

Corpsey
29-03-2011, 06:13 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDGJd1LwQ64

Dashed on your doorstep like Dando

This is one of my favourite UK rap tunes, so many quotables and the beat is a good imitation of the NY grimey loop style.

luka
29-03-2011, 11:07 PM
many man ran prang from my nang flows badder than taliban still ban shows

PeteUM
31-03-2011, 04:56 PM
<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Y9gmlsX75r0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

PeteUM
31-03-2011, 04:58 PM
<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Y9gmlsX75r0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Ah shit, sorry, I thought this was the Post A Video Of Yourself (http://www.dissensus.com/showthread.php?11647-Post-A-Video-Of-Yourself) thread! :o:o:o

luka
22-01-2015, 06:53 PM
i am addresseing this issue in detail in the youtube playlist to end all playlists

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WN4qUAFe5io

luka
22-01-2015, 07:37 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_yFhmOXOBY

luka
22-01-2015, 09:16 PM
if you go right to the end of this playlist you will find some important documents from the birth of UK MC culture. it is a labour of love and an epochal acheivement.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLEjglVucba1iA2xS94vVwveu9Dt1EQyDD

trilliam
22-01-2015, 09:39 PM
can tell i would've hated to b around here during road raps peak years

to answer the thread clearly the best uk mc ever is ghetto from risky roadz 2 to fuck radio times

rubberdingyrapids
22-01-2015, 10:32 PM
im gonna say dizzee, from 2002 to around 2004. not that long a stretch but hey, who cares. kills everyone else really.

but also -
trim
dirty goodz
tempz
mighty mo
DEE (its weird though, ive never really loved him, just thought he was good)

millions more but im trying to be selective

CrowleyHead
22-01-2015, 11:14 PM
I'm so glad nobody in England under the age of 30 will ever mistake Skibadee as being a talented MC. My nation's pervasive influence with rap and the ascension of grime has saved you all as a people.

luka
22-01-2015, 11:16 PM
he is talented but you have to hear him a)in the correct context and b) over good music and since drum and bass has been shit since 1995 thats not gunna happen
or maybe you had to be there.....

luka
22-01-2015, 11:20 PM
or maybe you had to be there and be 14

CrowleyHead
23-01-2015, 12:06 PM
I think its because I've seen so much of him over my time trying to learn UK Music and its like, he's your staple musical extra. "Radio 1Xtra presents three guys who are genuinely still popular, and SKIBADEE."

I also hate Das-EFX type people who just throw nonsensical syllables out there to overextend words without purpose. So there's that.

luka
23-01-2015, 12:15 PM
He made sense as a kind of endpoint to a phase of development
No one tried to take it any further

Corpsey
23-01-2015, 12:22 PM
Drum N Bass MCing is a very specific thing, with not much room for lyrical ingenuity or depth. When someone tries to do that you get MC SP :p

I remember Skibadee did this cover of Mungo Jerry 'In The Summertime' it got absolutely rinsed on Drum N Bass Arena, was very amusing.

Of course Luka will strongly disagree but I like DNB sets from around that period where Ed Rush and Optical et al were doing their business with perpetual double-time bibbidy-bibbidy MCing courtesy of Skibadee and that Bassman/Trigga style of MCing where its like ''See a bad man... In tha corner!''

I mean I guess this is where grime came from in part - MCs marking themselves out with silly noises and distinctive rhythms/flows rather than lyrical 'sophistication'. Obviously Wiley/D Double and others MCd over jungle/DNB before they did grime.

droid
23-01-2015, 01:31 PM
I challenge everyone to listen to the 2nd half of this without a grin on their face.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9T_vuEdr6Gk&feature=youtu.be

luka
23-01-2015, 01:33 PM
you cant enter the conversation until you listen to this in full
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4VmSHc3tsM
and spend a year studying 80s soundclashes on youtube

luka
23-01-2015, 01:37 PM
dissensus hates ghetto but anyone that can do this cant be ignored
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLU7q8ssT64
watching chipmonk stand up for himself and taking it to another level is inspiring too

the playlist cant properly address this question cos the records sound shit, really polite, compared to de ja vu recordings and soundclash tapes

droid
23-01-2015, 01:49 PM
you cant enter the conversation until you listen to this in full
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4VmSHc3tsM
and spend a year studying 80s soundclashes on youtube

Seriously Luka? Youre trying to school me on soundclash by sending me to sessions I've had since before YT existed?

Im outraged etc.

luka
23-01-2015, 01:50 PM
i wasnt addressed to you this is a forum lol theres like, loads of people here!

luka
23-01-2015, 01:52 PM
the correct, boring answer is dizzee during the times when he was still going on pirate radio though.

craner
23-01-2015, 02:04 PM
MC Conrad

hucks
23-01-2015, 02:07 PM
MC Conrad

Ha was just about to say that. I was well into Bukem in 1994/5 and have tonnes of tapes and mixes which musically still just about stand up (IMO etc, tho even I can't take Bukem from around 1997 onwards) but Conrad is so hard to listen to now. That weird mid Atlantic thing he had going on.

droid
23-01-2015, 02:09 PM
Conrad is shit. He ruined the western. Only jungle MC really worth a look in is GQ.

craner
23-01-2015, 02:19 PM
It's alright, was just trying to wind Luke up.

HMGovt
23-01-2015, 02:21 PM
Surprise contender
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKdV5FvXLuI

luka
23-01-2015, 02:22 PM
lol it was too obvious, nice try though.

droid youre opinion is mental and ignores speccy navigator, flinty badman and deman rocker, det, 5-0,remadee, shabba d and stevie hyper d. gq is not even top division, strictly lower ranks,a game, semi-pro grafter

luka
23-01-2015, 02:24 PM
at the time my favourite was navigator and i dont see any need to revise that opinion.

droid
23-01-2015, 03:06 PM
Yeah, thats the layman's take on things. The cognescenti all rate GQ.

luka
23-01-2015, 03:23 PM
Lol, alright I'll give you that one. Can you compile a list of 12 essential 80s UK dancehall clashes and give links to audio pls I'm teying to fill gaps in my education. Can you hand in your homework before Saturday pls

droid
23-01-2015, 04:03 PM
Do they have to be on youtube?

luka
23-01-2015, 04:33 PM
No

luka
23-01-2015, 04:33 PM
But I'd like to have some way of hearing them or the whole exercise is academic

john eden
23-01-2015, 05:15 PM
1. Saxon vs Ghettotone.

luka
23-01-2015, 05:41 PM
I posted a link to that in this thread earlier today
So not including that, as wonderful as it is

HMGovt
23-01-2015, 07:29 PM
at the time my favourite was navigator and i dont see any need to revise that opinion.

He was great, very good host on One in the Jungle too. Personable. He was the MC for the Freestylers too, right?

HMGovt
23-01-2015, 07:31 PM
This keeps getting played on Code South FM down here on the coast

all this lot get a mention


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACqVAfMzngs

luka
23-01-2015, 07:36 PM
That's right he worked with freestyles, same navigator

droid
23-01-2015, 09:02 PM
With the caveat that my favourite clash involving a UK sound is probably the legendary Saxon vs Addies Bermuda 94 clash, and the fact that youve ruled out the #1 session.

Sir Coxsone vs Stereoclassic & Gemi Magic Dalston 1986
Saxon v Radics Birmingham 1983
Saxon v frontline v jamdown 1984
Saxon v Coxsone - London 1985
Saxon v Unity 82
Saxon vs Third World, New york 1985
Now Generation v Saxon Birmingham 1987 (revenge of jungleman)
Saxon v Ghettotone, Coliseum Suite, 1983 (Ghettotone no-show)
Coxsone vs Saxon vs Unity Reading 1987
The Burial of Volcano sound, Stonebridge 1987

And since there has to be a Shaka:

Jah Shaka vs Coxsone vs Stereograph London 1981

luka
23-01-2015, 09:09 PM
Love you mate Buddha bless I promise to listen to all of these by the end of the next week

droid
23-01-2015, 09:17 PM
Most of my clash listening over the last few years has been mid-late 80's JA stuff, and I dont have my archive handy, but I remember all of these being wicked.

droid
23-01-2015, 09:19 PM
Volcano one is utter destruction, and the now generation is a rare example of Saxon getting buried. Third world in Brooklyn was their first toehold in the US.

droid
23-01-2015, 09:25 PM
There's a killer late 80's Coxsone with supreme vibes from Tenor Fly and Daddy freddy as well. Maybe Coxsone vs Exodus?

luka
23-01-2015, 09:59 PM
Would love to hear those two in a clash

droid
23-01-2015, 10:12 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOqnTwKXZvY&list=PLjlRCJpNOPteDQjLiHDLnW3S9LN-JyUEr

droid
23-01-2015, 10:18 PM
Best UK MC has to come out of reggae. In fact, Id say the best MC EVER must come from reggae. I dont think any other genre can match it for overall vocal quality, lyrics, inventiveness, flow and ability.

john eden
23-01-2015, 10:35 PM
I posted a link to that in this thread earlier today
So not including that, as wonderful as it is

Good.

Corpsey
04-02-2015, 07:03 PM
Have you noticed there's a UK hip hop voice? Its that sort of nasal, muted, whiney voice that yer Chester PS and Jehsty Bs have. You don't get it in grime. Is it just a convention, then? I guess a lot of road rappers e.g. use a similar voice/flow. Just that in grime you did used to get a lot of variety. I think this is a big problem I have with UK hip hop, alongside its Premier worshipping boring production. That miserable voice reciting poetry and going on about crushing up "the sensimilia" etc

luka
04-02-2015, 07:14 PM
It's north London specific I was laughing about it with my mate the other day. Chalk farm man dem lol

luka
04-02-2015, 07:19 PM
Very forced unnatural voices. pinched yelping noises. North London is the worst. Chalk farm white rapper production line for 20 years. The same rapper. A standardised product
Edit: must note the voice is Camden/Islington boroughs specific

luka
04-02-2015, 07:36 PM
Fliptrix - Mind Travelling (OFFICIAL VIDEO) (Prod…: http://youtu.be/M48gyd8Ifns everyone on high focus lol

Corpsey
04-02-2015, 09:45 PM
Ah so it IS a regional thing? Interesting. I remember ppl taking shots at Piff Gang for being North London posh boys pretending to be road.

Its a very earnest voice isn't it? Its the voice of someone insisting upon their own credibility. Its funny cos the lyrics which tend towards portentousness and metaphor upon metaphor is very "try hard" too.

Not entirely doing this side of things down cos I used to enjoy Chester P raps and perhaps I still would if I listened to them now.

luka
04-02-2015, 10:03 PM
Task Force - Butterfly Concerto: http://youtu.be/AUZlH7N-24I they didn't invent the voice but definitely popularised these type of lyrics. Can hear the pep luv influence

NOAT
05-02-2015, 02:06 AM
Fliptrix - Mind Travelling (OFFICIAL VIDEO) (Prod…: http://youtu.be/M48gyd8Ifns everyone on high focus lol

Fucking embarrassing.

luka
05-02-2015, 07:48 AM
THIS IS A WHOLE RECORD LABEL AND SCENE. ITS SOLVENT. THERE IS AN AUDIENCE AND INFRASTRCTURE. CONTEMPLATE THAT Dr Syntax & Tom Caruana - My House: http://youtu.be/fgmJmZIZHAU

luka
05-02-2015, 07:51 AM
Krate Krusaders & Dr Syntax - On The Rise: http://youtu.be/YMlb-XawqI8 imagine having this face and thinking my career choice is gunna be rapper and everyone laughs and calls you a cunt then you actually do it? What does that do to your psychological state?

luka
05-02-2015, 08:04 AM
Leaf Dog and BVA (3 amigos) "Domino effect" prod …: http://youtu.be/u54Wm6Q7yPI
Leaf Dog - Walk With Me (HF TV SPECIAL): http://youtu.be/rHIF7LOo7mw

Wait, I think I just found the most quintessential one.
Smellington Piff - Piff Land (Produced by Leaf Do…: http://youtu.be/jdXWmWkhtP8

luka
05-02-2015, 08:20 AM
BVA - It's A Mad World Feat. Fliptrix, Cracker Jo…: http://youtu.be/CFWSEAs7bxQ

Oh task force look upon that which thou hath wrought. Fliptrix - Wylin Out (OFFICIAL VIDEO): http://youtu.be/2kjgf4jVKEI

This is has over ONE MILLION VIEWS Dirty Dike - Hi I'm James (OFFICIAL VIDEO): http://youtu.be/YRpGFi8-0FE

trilliam
05-02-2015, 10:41 AM
Best UK MC has to come out of reggae. In fact, Id say the best MC EVER must come from reggae. I dont think any other genre can match it for overall vocal quality, lyrics, inventiveness, flow and ability.

lol this must be some kind of joke

re: voices / grime was much more personality/character orientated, by that i mean there was a lot more tolerance for being this super cartoony guy with a noticeably energetic/lethargic flow. in fact it was probably needed to distinguish certain ppls from their counterparts. i remember having bars (hard bars) but being pissed cause my mandatory sound fx catchphrase was too boring/normal sounding.

there was a lot more scope for that kind of stuff where as i guess if rap is the antithesis of the grime scene (busta rhymes tekkers, audience suspending belief every other punchline) then ofc certain additives get taken away. ive read on here ppl talking about a braindead uk rap voice but to me it sounds more natural than some grime ever did. only thing is that if you aint familiar with certain artists it does sound like an assembly line of rappers all sounding the same but ppl do find other ways to standout whether its flows/lingo/beat or even just the way they present their shit.

re: piff gang n their peers - smh

trilliam
05-02-2015, 10:45 AM
just on piff gang quickly though id say ppl (i) had less problems with them pretending to be road (which i dont think theyre too guilty of tbh) n more with the blatant hypebeast baiting this is real hip hop distilled through air maxes angle theyre going for

luka
05-02-2015, 12:40 PM
audience suspending belief every other punchline

this is more pronounced in rap though if we're being honest otherwise London would have a murder rate like Chicago and Islington would be a scary place to go cos Benny Banks might stab you in the leg.

trilliam
05-02-2015, 01:06 PM
this is more pronounced in rap though if we're being honest otherwise London would have a murder rate like Chicago and Islington would be a scary place to go cos Benny Banks might stab you in the leg.

nah id disagree

in grime you guys rapping about shanking u up meanwhile their balls aint dropped, some of the most notoriously soft people ever talking a bag of grease, insane mortal kombat style finishers etc

everyone was a lot faker in grime simple as, not that road rap is all realism but if u know u know the levels r not similar

/

parts of islington r 'scary'

luka
05-02-2015, 01:18 PM
i think how it was presented makes the difference though. you werent supposed to actually believe that hyper really is gunna cut out your tongue and send it in the post back to your mum are you? music made by teenage boys for teenage boys is always gunna be a lot of hype. i dont buy the argument that rap is made by a different breed of people than the people who made grime and it is titch that is in prison for murder and not giggs or whatever.

south london is a little bit differrent from east culturally and i think rap is basically a south thing and grime was bascially an east thing and north will just jumpon whatever regardless

also if you do anything naughty in islington you have to go and apologise to the adamses so its the safest part of the whole city bascially

luka
05-02-2015, 01:30 PM
also grime got its head turned by a little knicker flash of glamour and mainstream money and stopped talking to the streets so there was a gap in the market

droid
05-02-2015, 01:51 PM
lol this must be some kind of joke


Ye-ah... only thing that comes close is US hip hop. Dancehall artists traditionally went through a crucible of intensive live sessions with some of the most unforgiving crowds you'll find anywhere, as well as participation in (what was once at least) the most prolific, competitive and creative music scene on the planet.

One area I find even the best hip hop or grime MC's let the side down is live performance, but check out any of the classic Sting or Sunsplash videos - almost every syllable from every deejay is clear and correct, all the nuances are there, be it over a band or a selector... Ninjaman here for example, total control over the band and the crowd, vocally clear and coherent, endless semi-improvised lyrics, a perfect mix of hype and content. Consummate professionalism.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFh3I6RACi8

CrowleyHead
05-02-2015, 02:44 PM
total control over the band

Musicians are mentally sub-sufficient and are the type of people who drool a little excessively when they sleep though. It doesn't take much to control a musician.

"YOU! STOP PLAYING ON THE FOUR, PLAY ON THE THREE!""Oh, ok!"

"Do you know what the three or four is?""Not a fucking clue, but if you yell it with enough realized passion he thinks you know what you're doing."

droid
05-02-2015, 02:47 PM
Yeah, 'in tune' with the band is a better description. A skill absent from most MC's regardless.

CrowleyHead
05-02-2015, 03:05 PM
Grime had a lot of superiority to a lot of its progenitors. Dancehall wise, the MC controls everything and that's stupid. That's the same shit that destroyed rap, letting the music all become the backdrops to a rapper breaking out the Bootsy Collins shades and going "YEAH BABYEEE *coke snorts* CHECK ME OUT GIRL, 'CAUSE I'M A STARRR!!!" That really ruins rap and early dancehall because they'll do whatever whatever on some of the corniest riddims/beats. Grime, you have a DJ who knows that "OK, these idiots will spit acapella if I'm not careful, I have to pull the beats around and make the MC change up otherwise he'll disappear up his own ass".

Also, like Trilliam said, style is paramount in grime, even if it usually manifests via crazy voices and SFX. Why do you think modern NYC Rap fell off? It wasn't that they were just unoriginal derivative boors... We'd been unoriginal derivative boors since fucking... 1990. It was because everyone at that period had no stylistically distinguishable qualities. Meanwhile, look at the south! JUST LOOK AT THEM. STYLE, FLOW, VOICES, CHARACTERISTICS.

luka
05-02-2015, 03:14 PM
The sfx thing is overstated in any case. d.e.e, saskilla, thingy from West and that's about it

luka
05-02-2015, 03:23 PM
oh and scratchy had that funny high pitch war cry. so basically d.e.e and a few weirdos against
wiley, dizzee, breeze, major ace, gods gift, riko, lethal b, kano, ghetto, sharky major, armour, stormin, hyper, doogz, titch, jme, skepta, big h,chronik, jendor, basically everyone in the whole scene

luka
05-02-2015, 03:26 PM
what it amounts to is a circle of very headstrong cocky people with fully developed personalities and the wit, imagination, bravado and invention to express that vs a teenager muttering into a balaclava.

luka
05-02-2015, 03:41 PM
people try and work out where that brain damaged rap flow comes from oh it comes from jeezy etc but it doesnt. its a function of those beats. theres a lot of space in them, you throw a word in here and there. they're designed for southern people who speak slow, big heavy bodied people from hot climates that dont like rushing
music is a function of culture and culture is a function of everything its the output of every input.

droid
05-02-2015, 03:54 PM
Grime had a lot of superiority to a lot of its progenitors. Dancehall wise, the MC controls everything and that's stupid. That's the same shit that destroyed rap, letting the music all become the backdrops to a rapper breaking out the Bootsy Collins shades and going "YEAH BABYEEE *coke snorts* CHECK ME OUT GIRL, 'CAUSE I'M A STARRR!!!" That really ruins rap and early dancehall because they'll do whatever whatever on some of the corniest riddims/beats. Grime, you have a DJ who knows that "OK, these idiots will spit acapella if I'm not careful, I have to pull the beats around and make the MC change up otherwise he'll disappear up his own ass".

Also, like Trilliam said, style is paramount in grime, even if it usually manifests via crazy voices and SFX. Why do you think modern NYC Rap fell off? It wasn't that they were just unoriginal derivative boors... We'd been unoriginal derivative boors since fucking... 1990. It was because everyone at that period had no stylistically distinguishable qualities. Meanwhile, look at the south! JUST LOOK AT THEM. STYLE, FLOW, VOICES, CHARACTERISTICS.

Not trying to be presumptuous here, but what Im taking from this is that you havent listened to a lot of dancehall records/stageshows/soundtapes.

droid
05-02-2015, 03:59 PM
oh and scratchy had that funny high pitch war cry. so basically d.e.e and a few weirdos against
wiley, dizzee, breeze, major ace, gods gift, riko, lethal b, kano, ghetto, sharky major, armour, stormin, hyper, doogz, titch, jme, skepta, big h,chronik, jendor, basically everyone in the whole scene

FLIRTA!!!!!

luka
05-02-2015, 04:04 PM
oh yeah, thats it, thank you. thingy from west = FLIRTA!!

trilliam
05-02-2015, 04:28 PM
Best UK MC has to come out of reggae. In fact, Id say the best MC EVER must come from reggae. I dont think any other genre can match it for overall vocal quality, lyrics, inventiveness, flow and ability.


Ye-ah... only thing that comes close is US hip hop

so what separates us hip from road rap? technique, subject matter, style, all interchangeable really and truly

the criteria you listed there is pretty subjective, inventiveness? vocal quality?

is it harder to ride a slow reggae beat or a skippy 130 production and sit on it like it is a slow reggae beat?

anyway in terms of flow, rhyme structure, lyrics i dont think it's close, ability wise we're talking about different leagues here unless you wanna say sugarhill gang is the pinnacle of rapping

there's certain things dancehall mcs have over grime mcs/rappers most notably stage presence because they're more performers than spitters, i wouldn't even lump delivery in with stage presence so yeah thats it

not to minimise their contribution to uk music or whatever but in terms of technique that shit is pretty much stone age and you could never convince me otherwise, much less that the best uk mc comes from reggae sorry


i think how it was presented makes the difference though. you werent supposed to actually believe that hyper really is gunna cut out your tongue and send it in the post back to your mum are you? music made by teenage boys for teenage boys is always gunna be a lot of hype. i dont buy the argument that rap is made by a different breed of people than the people who made grime and it is titch that is in prison for murder and not giggs or whatever.

south london is a little bit differrent from east culturally and i think rap is basically a south thing and grime was bascially an east thing and north will just jumpon whatever regardless

not saying that they're a different breed at all, just that in grime there was a lot more scope for nonsensical/fictional gas and it was much more tolerated than it is (was) in rap

when it was popping the age demographic in grime was pretty big, you're talking about 13 to just under 30 so this teenage boys thing is not true.as much as you wanna say "it weren't meant to be taken seriously" i dispute that heavily cause while certain guys were obviously on a gimmick, cartoon wave but a guy like hyper for instance or stormin talking grease, thats supposed to be taken at face value until real life proves otherwise. this is what put a lot of people (i know) off grime in the mid noughties (06 onwards)

talking about murder charges etc is stupid, iceman n jmoney from slk r away for a long time, big h is a certified paraody, before boiler room started putting money back in his pocket discarda was looking like a member of the wombats, chronik is atl, conversely giggs done a stretch for firearm offences and countless other (some of my favourites) uk rappers are constantly in and out never releasing music or just never coming out period

you cant try say crazy t is in bin giggs isnt therefore grime is realer than rap like cmon son


also grime got its head turned by a little knicker flash of glamour and mainstream money and stopped talking to the streets so there was a gap in the market

whose to say what would've happened if grime didnt start achieving commercial success (not that i consider tinchy stryder collabin with dappy an roll deep making dance tunes commercial success) but by the time them things were happening streets was already looking elsewhere

rap was a very real reaction to the constantly disappointing grime scene of the late noughties

responded to whats relevant imo

trilliam
05-02-2015, 04:48 PM
Yeah, 'in tune' with the band is a better description. A skill absent from most MC's regardless.

is this a skill mcs need?

dippin into irrelevance

luka
05-02-2015, 04:52 PM
grime was over by about 05 let alone late noughties tbh i was out of the country in road rap peak years so i cant really weigh in on it too much.

trilliam
05-02-2015, 05:02 PM
grime was over by about 05 let alone late noughties tbh

fuck radio come out in 06, axefm was entering its peak years these times, logan sama on a monday was still instant. mixtape madness was taking over (vital). the tempo specialist school of grime with the sped up chipmunk soul samples or w/e defo was in d decline phaze but nonetheless them years were good n def not important/not worth remembering

i was out of the country in road rap peak years so i cant really weigh in on it too much.
snm


yep

luka
05-02-2015, 05:04 PM
didnt really get into that stuff but glad you got something out of it though.

trilliam
05-02-2015, 05:09 PM
without that period u missing a vital part of the story/knowledge

glad u think u can be an authority on something with only half the dissertation though

luka
05-02-2015, 05:14 PM
lost you there mate, the analogy was a bit adavanced maybe. what are you trying to say?

luka
05-02-2015, 05:23 PM
most people had moved on to funky house by 06 cos they didnt want to listen to the movement showing how technical they are,or tune into nasty and get fobbed off with lightning and them

CrowleyHead
05-02-2015, 07:47 PM
Not trying to be presumptuous here, but what Im taking from this is that you havent listened to a lot of dancehall records/stageshows/soundtapes.

You proposed that the vocalist being the domineer of dancehall shows their superiority in quality MC and I challenged a lot of that, but that's because I argue that what makes for great MCing in a Ninjaman is actually not a positive in a MC in grime's context.

@luka; I think that the Gimmick flow thing is overstated by me but it is reflective enough if its invovled in the generation of flows. Flirta is obviously the best at doing that but nobody in their right mind would want to hear a whole Marcie Phonix & Hypa Fenn album.

Actually though a good definition would be how Rugrat from Musical Mobb was so impressive on grime, but now listening to him doing road rap is like slowly dying of cancer in a hospital bed.

droid
05-02-2015, 09:59 PM
so what separates us hip from road rap? technique, subject matter, style, all interchangeable really and truly

the criteria you listed there is pretty subjective, inventiveness? vocal quality?

is it harder to ride a slow reggae beat or a skippy 130 production and sit on it like it is a slow reggae beat?

anyway in terms of flow, rhyme structure, lyrics i dont think it's close, ability wise we're talking about different leagues here unless you wanna say sugarhill gang is the pinnacle of rapping

there's certain things dancehall mcs have over grime mcs/rappers most notably stage presence because they're more performers than spitters, i wouldn't even lump delivery in with stage presence so yeah thats it

not to minimise their contribution to uk music or whatever but in terms of technique that shit is pretty much stone age and you could never convince me otherwise, much less that the best uk mc comes from reggae sorry

lol. Y'know Daddy Freddy was the fastest MC in the world for about 20 years dont you? That there's plenty of dancehall tunes that roll out at 100bpm+ with double time vocals?

There's barely a handful of grime MC's that would have made it onto the wings of the stage at a dancehall gig anytime in the 80's or 90's, and as for road rap vs US hip hop? Where is the UK's Rakim, Chuck D, Guru, Busta or Dirty?

droid
05-02-2015, 10:03 PM
You proposed that the vocalist being the domineer of dancehall shows their superiority in quality MC and I challenged a lot of that, but that's because I argue that what makes for great MCing in a Ninjaman is actually not a positive in a MC in grime's context.

I proposed that Dancehall at its decade+ long peak produced the best MC's in the world, and one reason is the fact that deejays could hold their own over a band or a selector, on stage, in a dance, or in the studio.

Ninjaman would kill any grime rave, even now.

droid
05-02-2015, 10:06 PM
Plenty of good grime MC's a few great ones, but I cant think of a single crew that could hold a candle to Saxon at their prime. They took on Kingston and New york and conquered the world.

luka
05-02-2015, 10:24 PM
Saxons a lot tbh get more respect for them with every set I listen to, sir coxsone too

luka
05-02-2015, 10:27 PM
I just feel wrong choosing someone from that scene over grime cos it's more derivative (with all due respect to fast tongue etc etc)

trilliam
05-02-2015, 10:29 PM
lol. Y'know Daddy Freddy was the fastest MC in the world for about 20 years dont you? That there's plenty of dancehall tunes that roll out at 100bpm+ with double time vocals?

im not just talking about spitting double time hundred mile an hour bars with no care for delivery, lyrics or none of that, like i said make a 130bpm beat sound like lovers rock, from you missed that nuance u must not know/care too much for the technical side of emceeing

There's barely a handful of grime MC's that would have made it onto the wings of the stage at a dancehall gig anytime in the 80's or 90's
is this the criteria for being the best uk mc now, why do the goalposts keep moving

and as for road rap vs US hip hop? Where is the UK's Rakim, Chuck D, Guru, Busta or Dirty?
when u first started talking about best mc and all that it was ability, you said on ability the only thing close to reggae is us hip hop now you wanna talk history/lineage? like i said before to say an mc out of the reggae era or whatever is better in ability than any grime mc is just foolishness, like saying sugar hill are better than vado

safe

trilliam
05-02-2015, 10:33 PM
no one that has put pen to paper to come up with some bars and has a real appreciation for the craft would ever try and make the kinda comparisons im seeing in here

i used to write lyrics (prolifically) and even if i didnt just from listening to rap n mc led genres i can tell u that for free.

luka
05-02-2015, 10:51 PM
Give us a lyric

droid
05-02-2015, 10:51 PM
when u first started talking about best mc and all that it was ability, you said on ability the only thing close to reggae is us hip hop now you wanna talk history/lineage? like i said before to say an mc out of the reggae era or whatever is better in ability than any grime mc is just foolishness, like saying sugar hill are better than vado

lol. Come back to me in 20 years when grime has produced more than a handful of world class MC's.

luka
05-02-2015, 10:54 PM
I won't take the Piss, even if it turns out you cant write. But it will show me what you look for in an mcs writing. I need to see if you are simple minded or if you have an ear

trilliam
05-02-2015, 11:04 PM
droid ur whole rhetoric is garbage

im here picking apart your points tryna argue them individually/honestly rather than some strawman shit meanwhile here u are just being smarmy talkin crap

my fault for giving u more respect than necessary though, anyone who says the best uk mc came about 30 years ago is obviously not worth listening to

/

luka lol @ thinking i have suttin to prove, i dont need ur appraisal or anyone elses for that matter, im a student of the game snm

done with this thread now

whats the point in arguing on a music site when guys would rather lol their way through explanations for their outlandish statements or draw a line under everything they didnt listen to as disposable/not worth checking for

luka
05-02-2015, 11:06 PM
I did listen to it r u Mad? Give us a lyric don't be nervous I'm very supportive of young talent trying to get a foot in the door

luka
05-02-2015, 11:09 PM
I'm not interested in mocking people that try and do something creative with their life.

droid
05-02-2015, 11:18 PM
droid ur whole rhetoric is garbage

im here picking apart your points tryna argue them individually/honestly rather than some strawman shit meanwhile here u are just being smarmy talkin crap

my fault for giving u more respect than necessary though, anyone who says the best uk mc came about 30 years ago is obviously not worth listening to


Ye-ah. Go and listen to some soundclash. You have about 30 years to catch up on by the sounds of it.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpHpMsevQbk

CrowleyHead
06-02-2015, 01:51 AM
lol. Y'know Daddy Freddy was the fastest MC in the world for about 20 years dont you? That there's plenty of dancehall tunes that roll out at 100bpm+ with double time vocals?

There's barely a handful of grime MC's that would have made it onto the wings of the stage at a dancehall gig anytime in the 80's or 90's, and as for road rap vs US hip hop? Where is the UK's Rakim, Chuck D, Guru, Busta or Dirty?

Daddy Freddy is fucking shit and this is why your nation is always going to be fucked. You keep mistaking people who can DO A THING as being the best. Nobody cares that he can spit random syllables again and again and again at hyperactive speed. You don't see me bringing Lambert, Hendricks and Ross into this thread, even though they could do that with lyrics. SO HOW ABOUT THAT. LAMBERT, HENDRICKS & ROSS IS THE PINNACLE OF UK & US MCING.

Also I'm crying at "WHERE IS THE ROAD RAP CHUCK D". Chuck D is actually, in all essence A WORSE RAPPER, both in rhyme structure and technique than Sneakbo. HANDS. FUCKING. DOWN. The genre has only existed maybe a decade and you're out here with "oh, but why haven't they produced an artist of the stature of US Rap did back in 1988-1993?" I DON'T KNOW, DIFFERING SOCIAL AND ECONOMIC CLIMATES? ROAD RAP DOESN'T FUNCTION FOR ITS AUDIENCE THE WAY HIP-HOP DID?

Not every form of MCing can be weighed against the other by the same criteria. If that was the case, then nobody'd remember people who on technical standards (which you're so infatuated with tonight) were abysmal but influential in US Rap such as KRS, Chuck D, Schoolly D, 93% of Old-School Original Rappers... Like, c'mon!

CrowleyHead
06-02-2015, 01:53 AM
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/LDbAsndZGW0?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

DADDY FREDDY WILL NEVER SEE THESE LEVELS

NOAT
06-02-2015, 02:09 AM
BVA - It's A Mad World Feat. Fliptrix, Cracker Jo…: http://youtu.be/CFWSEAs7bxQ

Bonus middle-class white rapper points for including the phrase 'Mainstream media'

slackk
06-02-2015, 06:27 AM
wiley

luka
06-02-2015, 08:13 AM
Daddy Freddy was not shit.

luka
06-02-2015, 08:16 AM
But nor is anyone entering him into a best mc competition. DROID and trilliam were talking at cross purposes

luka
06-02-2015, 08:28 AM
The reason our nation is 'fucked' in terms of producing a mature, sustainable scene capable of supporting healthy numbers of artists across generations is nothing to do with Daddy Freddy it's a consequence of having a relatively small black population, and that concentrated in a small number of cities.

If wiley gets ambitious and wants decent money he has to make his rolex tune and appear on children's TV. The demographics of the UK do not allow for the breadth and depth of the hiphop scene in the US.

droid
06-02-2015, 09:06 AM
Also I'm crying at "WHERE IS THE ROAD RAP CHUCK D". Chuck D is actually, in all essence A WORSE RAPPER, both in rhyme structure and technique than Sneakbo. HANDS. FUCKING. DOWN. The genre has only existed maybe a decade and you're out here with "oh, but why haven't they produced an artist of the stature of US Rap did back in 1988-1993?" I DON'T KNOW, DIFFERING SOCIAL AND ECONOMIC CLIMATES? ROAD RAP DOESN'T FUNCTION FOR ITS AUDIENCE THE WAY HIP-HOP DID?

Not every form of MCing can be weighed against the other by the same criteria. If that was the case, then nobody'd remember people who on technical standards (which you're so infatuated with tonight) were abysmal but influential in US Rap such as KRS, Chuck D, Schoolly D, 93% of Old-School Original Rappers... Like, c'mon!

Chuck D is an amazing rapper because of his presence, his lyrics, his tone of voice and his authority. The point Im trying to make, which yourself and Trilliam seem to have missed is that 'technical' skill and 'rhyme structure' are not the be all and end all of MC'ng, if it were, Def Jux would be the best hip hop label of all time.

Its a completely flawed argument, like saying that Shakespeare, or Faulkner are shit because we have a McCarthy or a Pynchon.

luka
06-02-2015, 09:09 AM
If you read crowleys last para then that's the point he makes. You lot need to slow down and read properly or you will keep talking at cross purposes

luka
06-02-2015, 09:12 AM
The only person that wanted to use technique as a yardstick was trillIam. Crowleys just doing his usual oedipal routine. You have to learn to ignore that. He's got good things to say when he's not trashing his father's record collection

droid
06-02-2015, 09:14 AM
The genre has only existed maybe a decade and you're out here with "oh, but why haven't they produced an artist of the stature of US Rap did back in 1988-1993?"

Seriously WTF? 'road rap' might be relatively new, but the UK hip hop tradition stretches back nearly 3 decades.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ahFJmFcY98

luka
06-02-2015, 09:20 AM
You're being a bit disingenuous there cos you specifically say road rap

trilliam
06-02-2015, 09:29 AM
If you read crowleys last para then that's the point he makes. You lot need to slow down and read properly or you will keep talking at cross purposes

about read properly, all this shit about horses for courses i already mentioned in my posts on the last 2 pages stay impartial or stfu


But nor is anyone entering him into a best mc competition. DROID and trilliam were talking at cross purposes

if you read properly thats exactly what ur boy droid did, totally misunderstanding the point i was trying to get across in the process


The only person that wanted to use technique as a yardstick was trillIam. Crowleys just doing his usual oedipal routine. You have to learn to ignore that. He's got good things to say when he's not trashing his father's record collection

why do u keep dropping my name bro, further more wtf would you judge the best MC whats the criteria

luka
06-02-2015, 09:34 AM
Maybe stick to the tech house mate, this is making you a bit moody

droid
06-02-2015, 09:35 AM
if you read properly thats exactly what ur boy droid did, totally misunderstanding the point i was trying to get across in the process


No, you made some ridiculous point about rapping at 130 and I mentioned in passing that Dancehall MC's often rap way faster. Simple as.


You're being a bit disingenuous there cos you specifically say road rap


Fine. I have struggled to see how road rap is essentially anything more than a new label for a UK hip hop tradition thats been around since the mid-80's, but I guess thats a failing on my part.

luka
06-02-2015, 09:36 AM
You know a lot about tech house. Maybe try and get some writing done on it?

luka
06-02-2015, 09:37 AM
Don't dilute the brand. Trilliam the tech house guy. Maybe keep it like that?

luka
06-02-2015, 09:38 AM
Cos right now you sound angry and confused

trilliam
06-02-2015, 10:23 AM
suck ur mum luka


Best UK MC has to come out of reggae. In fact, Id say the best MC EVER must come from reggae. I dont think any other genre can match it for overall vocal quality, lyrics, inventiveness, flow and ability


only thing that comes close is US hip hop

clearly talking about mic skills only and what mic skills shud be judged on



There's barely a handful of grime MC's that would have made it onto the wings of the stage at a dancehall gig anytime in the 80's or 90's, and as for road rap vs US hip hop? Where is the UK's Rakim, Chuck D, Guru, Busta or Dirty?


lol. Come back to me in 20 years when grime has produced more than a handful of world class MC's.

now talking about history not just mic skills, changing goalposts is always a sign of a FAILED argument

droid if u can just answer my original post ill let this be

what separates us hip from road rap? technique, subject matter, style, all interchangeable really and truly

the criteria you listed there is pretty subjective, inventiveness? vocal quality?

is it harder to ride a slow reggae beat or a skippy 130 production and sit on it like it is a slow reggae beat?

anyway in terms of flow, rhyme structure, lyrics i dont think it's close, ability wise we're talking about different leagues here unless you wanna say sugarhill gang is the pinnacle of rapping

there's certain things dancehall mcs have over grime mcs/rappers most notably stage presence because they're more performers than spitters, i wouldn't even lump delivery in with stage presence so yeah thats it

not to minimise their contribution to uk music or whatever but in terms of technique that shit is pretty much stone age and you could never convince me otherwise, much less that the best uk mc comes from reggae sorry

/

please try and address everything rather than just focusing on one thing and dismissing the other relevant shit

and before u try strawman my argument into some technique is not the be all and end all def jux bs ill elaborate further

certain things r a given, of course rappers are gonna be on beat (hopefully) and of course they're gonna have lyrics and if they're lucky a nice delivery/"vocal presence"

once u get past these things u're gonna have to break them down further if you really wanna compare them unless you just wanna say boom everythings subjective no debate to be had

so to say that a reggae mc from the eighties who is really and truly only gonna have at best a strong delivery, strong charisma and medium lyrics

is better than an mc from the here and now who is either more well rounded or has the same level of delivery charisma and better lyrics

thats nonsense

further more wtf is ABILITY if not total rap tekkers

/

sneakbo pisses all over chuck d despite chuck having arguably (not imo) better "lyrics" (message)

luka suck ur mum

trilliam
06-02-2015, 10:36 AM
guys r talkin down on technique like it aint the reason kool g, lord finesse, big daddy kane an them man there are so heavily celebrated/respected

good vocal presence, delivery an being on beat these are the foundations aka the BASICS

luka
06-02-2015, 10:39 AM
Nice 1 mate.

luka
06-02-2015, 10:42 AM
Sassy attitude, youthful fizz, some street slang. It's a good package. Keep polishing the asap yams tumblr lyrics. U could get a lot of followers and be big in the tumblr game tbh.

droid
06-02-2015, 10:45 AM
so to say that a reggae mc from the eighties who is really and truly only gonna have at best a strong delivery, strong charisma and medium lyrics

is better than an mc from the here and now who is either more well rounded or has the same level of delivery charisma and better lyrics


Y'see, here's your problem, if youre making claims like that then you know nothing about dancehall. Youve obviously never heard Papa San, Lieutenant Stitchie, Ninjaman, Supercat, Cutty ranks, Tonto Irie, Charlie Chaplin, Major Worries, Brigadier Jerry, Yellowman, Tippa Irie, Papa Levi, Admiral bailey, Chaka Demus, Tiger, Daddy Lilly, Tullo T, Buju Banton, Peter Metro, Shabba ranks, Major Mackerel, Bounty Killer, Bunny General... the dozens, if not hundreds of top class Jamaican MC's who exhibit every conceivable variety and combination of qualities.

Make an argument for grime or road rap or whatever - thats fine, but don't cast aspersions on the competition when you clearly dont know anything about them.

trilliam
06-02-2015, 11:14 AM
Sassy attitude, youthful fizz, some street slang. It's a good package. Keep polishing the asap yams tumblr lyrics. U could get a lot of followers and be big in the tumblr game tbh.

lol u think growing up in east and helpings wileys mum with her shopping or some shit gives ur opinion weight bro? are u a somebody? what game r u big in?

shout to asap yams stil n thanks for the support, i'd pree your blog but its on private :rolleyes:


Y'see, here's your problem, if youre making claims like that then you know nothing about dancehall. Youve obviously never heard Papa San, Lieutenant Stitchie, Ninjaman, Supercat, Cutty ranks, Tonto Irie, Charlie Chaplin, Major Worries, Brigadier Jerry, Yellowman, Tippa Irie, Papa Levi, Admiral bailey, Chaka Demus, Tiger, Daddy Lilly, Tullo T, Buju Banton, Peter Metro, Shabba ranks, Major Mackerel, Bounty Killer, Bunny General... the dozens, if not hundreds of top class Jamaican MC's who exhibit every conceivable variety and combination of qualities.

Make an argument for grime or road rap or whatever - thats fine, but don't cast aspersions on the competition when you clearly dont know anything about them.

u're 100 percent right, apart from the bait names i dont know anyone on that list, normally i would agree with you on this if you dont know dont talk angle but rapping is rapping and lyrics are lyrics and i refuse to believe that what certain rappers cant even do today a sizeable portion of reggae was doing in the late 80s. we're talking about advanced tekkers here. fair enough they might do everything better than ive given credit for but even without doing the research im almost 100 percent sure i would not hear an artist that can rap to the standard of say a vado, a mafia, ghetts kinda guy

if im wrong tell me who is the BEST

actually scratch that cause i know im not wrong already, this is why i may seem "moody, angry and confused"

luka
06-02-2015, 11:21 AM
I'm just another dickhead on the forum mate same as you.

john eden
06-02-2015, 11:22 AM
i dont know anyone on that list

Well you're in for some good times, then.

droid
06-02-2015, 11:27 AM
l
u're 100 percent right, apart from the bait names i dont know anyone on that list, normally i would agree with you on this if you dont know dont talk angle but rapping is rapping and lyrics are lyrics and i refuse to believe that what certain rappers cant even do today a sizeable portion of reggae was doing in the late 80s. we're talking about advanced tekkers here. fair enough they might do everything better than ive given credit for but even without doing the research im almost 100 percent sure i would not hear an artist that can rap to the standard of say a vado, a mafia, ghetts kinda guy

if im wrong tell me who is the BEST

actually scratch that cause i know im not wrong already, this is why i may seem "moody, angry and confused"

Right, so basically youre saying that you dont know anything about the FOUNDATION and most prolific exponents of all MC led music and you think you're in a position to judge anything?

Get the fuck back to school.

droid
06-02-2015, 11:28 AM
Well you're in for some good times, then.

Ha. yes, thats another way to look at it.

droid
06-02-2015, 11:31 AM
"Mic and equaliser are the Deejay tool, and people come a dance like children going to school..."


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VR4SGMWkaX0

trilliam
06-02-2015, 11:59 AM
"Mic and equaliser are the Deejay tool, and people come a dance like children going to school..."


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VR4SGMWkaX0

wtf is this nursery rhyme education for the nation shit, we talking about rapping/spitting whatever u wanna call it at a high level, being the best uk mc of all the time, going on the criteria YOU put forward and then you post this shit ??

is that the answer to this ?


im almost 100 percent sure i would not hear an artist that can rap to the standard of say a vado, a mafia, ghetts kinda guy

if im wrong tell me who is the BEST


this is the most important issue at the end of the day because im saying they cant you're saying they can all this other shit is periphery put up or shut up


Well you're in for some good times, then.

why u misquoting like some nancy


Right, so basically youre saying that you dont know anything about the FOUNDATION and most prolific exponents of all MC led music and you think you're in a position to judge anything?

Get the fuck back to school.

most prolific exponents of all mc led music? why?

in any case yes thats what im saying, stop using it at as a crutch, their shit is BASIC. we not talking about soundsystems, cutting dubs, touring europe or any of that other shit.

LYRICS. FLOW. BARS where are they ?

droid
06-02-2015, 12:02 PM
in any case yes thats what im saying, stop using it at as a crutch, their shit is BASIC.

Lol. How do you know? Come back when youve educated yourself and are qualified to chat cos all I hear is ignorance.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqHCHeaKeJg

trilliam
06-02-2015, 12:07 PM
Lol. How do you know? Come back when youve educated yourself and are qualified to chat cos all I hear is ignorance.

i know cause you wont answer the question, you keep avoiding it n that tells me that you aint got an answer because there is no reggae equivalent therefore what research do i need to do?

trilliam
06-02-2015, 12:15 PM
listening to them two tracks you posted, the lyrics and the flow, BASIC. sure they might be some good messages in there, some positive thoughts and probably what u would call astute social commentary (basic observations) but that dont change the fact that to most people writing bars in 2015 this is CHILDS PLAY. ninjaman murder dem is playing now cause of the autoplay feature on youtube now. basic.

if there is anyone who truly believes the best uk mc ever comes from this scene then please stand and be counted

comparing these mcs to todays is like kurtis blow to camron, keystage 3 to a levels etc the craft has moved on

CrowleyHead
06-02-2015, 12:23 PM
if it were, Def Jux would be the best hip hop label of all time.


HELL NO.

but I can concede to mistaking who's argument was where. I'd still contest that in the context of most classic dancehall vocalists Freddy's sub-par at even that and when he attempts cross-generational tracks well, there's not much good there. Different tastes and all that.

@Luka; furthermore! Lambert, Hendricks & Ross is actually my dad's record taste! I just feel weird at people in their 30s using stuff my dad in his 40s uses as lexicons of rap taste (though the only dancehall he'd ever listen to would be Supercat & Shabba).

trilliam
06-02-2015, 12:30 PM
i didnt even wanna get into that def jux angle because its stinks of missing every subtlety associated with rap tekkers, bare in mind i said in previous posts that delivery/charisma and all them tings are part of the parcel but the whole package is just as important, and that delivery/"vocal presence" for a on point rapper is gonna be above average anyway

getting away from aesop rock though, cage vast aire c ray walz are these guys not good rappers nah?

can u really tell me im not qualified to talk about the craft when im different rappers from different eras like lord finesse, kool g rap, a-mafia and ghetts, just because i missed out on your favorite trivia subject?

you still cant give me the reggae/dancehall equivalent of these guys so just take the l

droid
06-02-2015, 12:46 PM
HELL NO.

but I can concede to mistaking who's argument was where. I'd still contest that in the context of most classic dancehall vocalists Freddy's sub-par at even that and when he attempts cross-generational tracks well, there's not much good there. Different tastes and all that.


Sure, and Im not actually suggesting freddy as the best MC, or even in the top tier, certainly not of dancehall, and certainly not on wax, though he has done some fantastic live sessions.

droid
06-02-2015, 12:50 PM
can u really tell me im not qualified to talk about the craft when im different rappers from different eras like lord finesse, kool g rap, a-mafia and ghetts, just because i missed out on your favorite trivia subject?


LOL. This guy? Seriously. This is your exemplar?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxnI-MattGA

Ninjaman would crush him under his heel without even noticing. Shabba would liquefy him with a single word like the horns of Jericho.

luka
06-02-2015, 12:52 PM
It is time for you to put a name down though DROID. Cos everyone else has and we need to move the argument forward or bin it cos it's getting tired

trilliam
06-02-2015, 12:52 PM
named 4 rappers, pinpoints 3

name 5 aspects of rapping including flow, pinpoints 1

is ghetts not a good mc nah? can you still not answer the burning question nah? if so you should just refrain from quoting man cause all these deflection tactics r boring

you older than me but you debate like a child

luka
06-02-2015, 12:53 PM
Stick to the essentials. No more mentioning Jamaicans.

droid
06-02-2015, 12:56 PM
Ive given you about 30 names. Go and educate yourself. Youre like a beano fan discussing who wrote the best novel. Read some literature.

luka
06-02-2015, 12:58 PM
What are you doing in this thread started by your personal friend Danny if you think it's a stupid topic?

john eden
06-02-2015, 12:58 PM
How have I misquoted you, young man?

I think Ghetts is a perfect example of an MC who is technically great, but who I personally find really boring to listen to.

(This is based on buying Ghetto Gospel and Freedom of Speech when they came out, so apologies if everyone else thinks they are rubbish or unrepresentative.)

droid
06-02-2015, 12:59 PM
Stick to the essentials. No more mentioning Jamaicans.

Well afaic, its between 80's dancehall and early 00's grime. Some great MC's in 90's garage and jungle of course, and I only know the obvious UK hip hop candidates, but the problem (obviously) is what makes a great grime MC is very different from what makes a great jungle MC.

luka
06-02-2015, 01:01 PM
I agree

luka
06-02-2015, 01:03 PM
But it would help to focus the debate if you back a horse, even if only nominally cos you must admit it's got a bit stupid

john eden
06-02-2015, 01:04 PM
It's like the good old days, only not as good.

trilliam
06-02-2015, 01:06 PM
Papa San, Lieutenant Stitchie, Ninjaman, Supercat, Cutty ranks, Tonto Irie, Charlie Chaplin, Major Worries, Brigadier Jerry, Yellowman, Tippa Irie, Papa Levi, Admiral bailey, Chaka Demus, Tiger, Daddy Lilly, Tullo T, Buju Banton, Peter Metro, Shabba ranks, Major Mackerel, Bounty Killer, Bunny General.

so i know chaka demus, bounty killer, ninaman, supercat, cutty ranks, buju banton and shabba ranks are not these mc marvels you make out to be, im pretty sure the rest aren't either. clearly the only thing these guys have going for them is (???) and a lot of that is subjective

clearly none of the guys i named are the equivalent of a maf, ghetts, kool g rap or lord finesse or could ever be considered a god mc, you're stuck in fetish land bro u need to unplug

john eden
06-02-2015, 01:07 PM
clearly none of the guys i named are the equivalent of a maf, ghetts, kool g rap or lord finesse or could ever be considered a god mc, you're stuck in fetish land bro u need to unplug

That is certainly a very interesting opinion.

trilliam
06-02-2015, 01:11 PM
of course comparing grime mcs, dancehall mcs and jungle mcs you're gonna have different criteria but a couple pages back droid was coming out with statements like

"There's barely a handful of grime MC's that would have made it onto the wings of the stage at a dancehall gig anytime in the 80's or 90's"

"Yeah, 'in tune' with the band is a better description. A skill absent from most MC's regardless"

like thats some kind of benchmark

and then when i moved things onto the lyrical side and the technical side of things, rather than just accept ye there are better lyricists elsewhere but the stage prescence of dancehall/reggae artists is vastly better (like i already said in so much words) he decided to stick to his guns, and that is exactly when things started getting stupid

john eden you missed out apart of my post to make it seem like i'd never heard of anyone in the list which is obviously not the case, dare say some of the names i dropped in the post before this one are "connoisseurs choice" but anyway

i aint fucked with ghetto since like 2006 maximum but in his prime he is my choice for best uk mc, him or giggs. sorry.

droid
06-02-2015, 01:14 PM
But it would help to focus the debate if you back a horse, even if only nominally cos you must admit it's got a bit stupid

Well if its 00's grime its got to be Dizzee doesnt it? Big fan of Wiley, Kano, D Double and the other obvious contenders, but none of them tick all the boxes the way he does.

80's wise, Id probably lead with Papa Levi, but Senator, Tippa, Smiley, Rusty, Sandy and Colonel, and even Pato get a look in, and the likes of Tenor Fly, Levy and Freddy and Macka B would all give most grime MC's a run for their money too.

So, Saxon for greatest UK MC crew of all time (BY A MILE), and Dizzee probably best overall MC. Honourable mention to GQ for jungle.

droid
06-02-2015, 01:24 PM
Course, not even thinking about guys like this, not really my area of expertise.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9ioxjwhrxs

luka
06-02-2015, 01:55 PM
All this talk about tekkers then coming out with giggs tho?

CrowleyHead
06-02-2015, 04:03 PM
There IS a technique to Giggs, though he's not the best at it (again, I'd say that'd be Sneakbo without a doubt.)

Like, in the road rap style, its obviously a v. clipped 'fit the bar' style. Keef does this a lot too, which is why people think he can't rap because it seems so mechanical. So it depends on sort of choice emphasis on the syllables.

(Ifyah-TA-lkin-DA-har-DES-giggs-best-POPUP-inya-MOUF-asan-AR-TIST (Gheeze!)) etc.

That's a lot more difficult than speed. Any music teacher will tell you singing softly is x100 times more difficult than singing fast. You have to deploy key placement and try to make it sound grooving and funky. Its like how the garage heads here will wax about El-B drums when it can just be "ker-CHAKK, ker-CHAKK".

French is a perfect example of this in US terms though. On a technical level French is actually very very awful, horrible. Unlovable. But that's because at the reduced tempo there's the space and he's trying to use the space carefully. (I know people would expertly say "That's a v. Jeezy thing" but I've always felt Jeezy over-raps on stuff. A lot of people post-Jeezy did that so much better (Gucci, Yo Gotti, Cam'ron is actually a master of slow rap and its noteworthy that his career flourished when he STOPPED rapping in multisylablistic flows that were overly packed).

luka
06-02-2015, 04:31 PM
Giggs technique is poor. Sounds awkward and has to resort to all sort of fudging on his writing when his rhyme scheme is too ambitious for him to keep up. Technique is inseparable from writing (but cant be reduced to writing obviously)

CrowleyHead
06-02-2015, 05:21 PM
Its not the best, but its hardly the worst, and he's gotten loads and loads better. Also being a pioneer can't be discredited.

trilliam
06-02-2015, 05:46 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIDuevgUudM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PB-JxYFyhUQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lG35p3lWCMk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5y2vMPUA2lQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6TAx-np2NE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TakQILaKxHw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pzf3iPW6ucU

ppl talk about giggs 'slow flow' but he only adopted that after droppin the bulk of his best material, just a lazy cop out imo


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgJWDx7LUFI

droid
07-02-2015, 07:53 PM
Entertaining DHR thread about lyricism in dancehall: http://forum.dancehallreggae.com/showthread.php/213036-So-Kartel-is-the-best-lyricist-in-dancehall-history

trilliam
07-02-2015, 10:21 PM
ironic aint the word

droid
07-02-2015, 10:54 PM
Im glad youve finally noticed.

muser
08-02-2015, 04:00 AM
no-one can rise to this


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LUfJN3bf3M

john eden
08-02-2015, 08:39 AM
i aint fucked with ghetto since like 2006 maximum but in his prime he is my choice for best uk mc, him or giggs. sorry.

Apologies, I hadn't realised you two were so close.

luka
08-02-2015, 08:45 AM
Also being a pioneer can't be discredited. can agree with this obviously and I'm not anti giggs at all. It's just to include him you need to adjust your criteria and when you do you immediately let the saxon lot back into the argument
If you're talking about pioneers it's them lot, it's wiley and riko in '99, it's a different conversation

luka
08-02-2015, 08:49 AM
These categories pound came up with...

1.Inventors. Men who found a new process, or whose extant work gives us the first known example of a process.
2.The masters. Men who combined a number of such processes, and who used them as well as or better than the inventors.
3.The diluters. Men who came after the first two kinds of writer, and couldn’t do the job quite as well.
4.Good writers without salient qualities. Men who are fortunate enough to be born when the literature of a given country is in good working order, or when some particular branch of writing is ‘healthy’.
5.Writers of belles-lettres. That is, men who didn’t really invent anything, but who specialized in some particular part of writing, who couldn’t be considered as ‘great men’ or as authors who were trying to give a complete presentation of life, or of their epoch.
6.The starters of crazes.

luka
08-02-2015, 09:33 AM
So you have to weigh these things eg who is more important the 1 who makes the breakthrough or the 1 bringing it to fruition, it's fullest expression -?

luka
08-02-2015, 09:44 AM
ppl talk about giggs 'slow flow' but he only adopted that after droppin the bulk of his best material, just a lazy cop out imo

pretty much every selecction there is a slow flow, leaving massive spaces between words, even spaces between syllables of the same word. so not sure what your point is tbh. baffled.

CrowleyHead
08-02-2015, 01:46 PM
It got even slower and more basic though, Trilliam is right about that. Probably in an attempt to tighten up or just make it more pallateable.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/60f8E2AjjsI?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Compared to say grime, yes EVERYTHING Giggs does is "slow flow", but its not actually that slow compared to what he moved it into.

luka
08-02-2015, 03:07 PM
I suppose if you want to be pedantic you can divide his career into slow flow and very slow flow periods. What do we gain by that? It's just splitting hairs really. I think I've probably said enough in this thread though. It's getting too circular.