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View Full Version : What do I need to know to be a Proper Grown Up?



luka
08-07-2011, 11:02 AM
and how do i learn it. eg econmics, politics, foreign languages, a trade..... can you giv me a reading list and some homework please. i want to become a proper grown up before the end of the year, starting from scratch. i know some odds and ends, a bit about rap music, a bit about uk dance music, a bit about modernist and proto modernist poetry, how to operate an espresso machine, how to paint a house, but nothing that adds up to proper grown up status which i now aspire to.

gumdrops
08-07-2011, 11:57 AM
i am actually in need of something similar. im currently reading arundhati roy's guide to empire which is amazing (if a bit brief) and thinking i need more brainfood like this so i can act like i work on newsnight and dazzle random strangers with my knowledge and insight. i want to be like bradley cooper in that film limitless basically.

you
08-07-2011, 12:51 PM
economics is always a good place to start ( exclaiming that you saw the iceland problem coming etc ), but you can make quite small changes that add to growed up status, some things get you more points than others though.

Only filling up your car with a full 60 + tank of fuel with radio 4 on the radio is a small change you can make.

Opening most formal and informal discussions with a thorough synopsis of your route via motorways will add points.

An appreciation of whisky can add points in some circumstances.

First hand anecdotal evidence to add to your politcal view on Russia is worth many points. Dropping in some cynicism about post-war american foreign policy and CIA antics, equating all arguments into essentially being power struggles is good too.

Some experience of Health and Safety, or a knowledge of it's absurdism may score heavily if expanded upon with the right amount eloquence/cynicismXauthority.

Wear a proper watch is you can afford to and carry a real leather wallet. Do not wear converse or nike.

luka
08-07-2011, 01:05 PM
thats good advice but im starting from a lower base than you realise. i havent got a drivers license.

4linehaiku
08-07-2011, 01:23 PM
Opening most formal and informal discussions with a thorough synopsis of your route via motorways will add points.

I love route chat, I'm not a driver so it's just gibberish. Like listening to people play Mornington Crescent, but even more cryptic because it's just letters and numbers.

I have a leather wallet and I quite like whiskey but beyond that I'm not scoring many grown up points.

I reckon you'd score highly if you can fix stuff. Not nerdy stuff like computers (or expresso machines), things like rewiring a plug and putting up shelves.

Slothrop
08-07-2011, 01:42 PM
I don't think politics and economics and the like are 'grown up' knowledge - reasonably with-it sixth formers can talk about them for days and plenty of adults know nothing about them.

I'd consider most grown up knowledge to be stuff related to houses, cars, jobs etc and general self-reliance:
how mortgages, pensions, taxes etc work
how to get the washing machine fixed
how to look after yourself if you get sick or injured, and when to go to the doctor
how to find a flat and what nonobvious things might be wrong with one when you look round it
that sort of stuff...

Knowing about driving routes or (in a pinch) train routes is a good one, too.

baboon2004
08-07-2011, 02:17 PM
and how do i learn it. eg econmics, politics, foreign languages, a trade..... can you giv me a reading list and some homework please. i want to become a proper grown up before the end of the year, starting from scratch. i know some odds and ends, a bit about rap music, a bit about uk dance music, a bit about modernist and proto modernist poetry, how to operate an espresso machine, how to paint a house, but nothing that adds up to proper grown up status which i now aspire to.

I think mortgages and pensions are the main part of it. Everythign else is blaggable. Though growing up is overrated.

luka
08-07-2011, 02:31 PM
i dont own a house. why do i need to know about a mortgage? im not sure i want to turn into alan partridge either. maybe i just want to be a reasonably with it six former. i spent every day at 6th form college around plaistow getting high and going to th pub with my mates. i didnt learn anything and i didnt pass any exams. i played some pool and spent a lot of time on th northrn outfall sewage embankment. maybe i should catch up with that stuff first. thn i could do th thing slothrop reccommends in ten years time when i will be in my 40s.

you
08-07-2011, 06:09 PM
ok, well, without learning to drive or owning a house you can still make small changes to your lifestyle that would make you more grown up - try, in the split second before seating yourself, just pinching the material of the trouser leg material across the thigh and lifting the leg upwards and inch or so, so you can see your ankle bones whilst seated - a small change but it could make all the difference.

I feel grown up when I have a sneaky pint of guinness alone on the way home from somewhere. If you have the confidence to read a book or paper ( not the guardian, not the sun... ) as well then you could score extra bonus points here - however these will be void if you read ANY of the magazine supplements...

Dusty
09-07-2011, 12:37 PM
Thank God for this thread.

I just cannot become an adult, even people 10 years my junior still intimidate me with their worldly knowledge and grasp of mature norms. I keep thinking they have sussed me, especially when it turns out I have no interest in football and can't join in sporting pub banter. For most, listening to music all day is such an odd way to spend time... and when it does leave people bemused I just think of Peel, my child/man hero.

I own a flat and I still have no concept of even basic financial workings. The mortgage documents are something I stuff into a folder every year and pretend don't exist.

I will never learn to drive. Growing a beard has definitely helped though.

craner
10-07-2011, 12:29 AM
I've been trying to become a genuine grown up ever since I met you, Luke. Before that, in fact. Actually, as it happens, a few weeks before I met you I was more of a grown up than a few weeks after I met you. Basically, all of the various things I've tried, avoid doing, as they won't work, or don't work. Don't try to exist purely on Bulgarian wine and Gauloises. Don't stay in a permanent job fo years constantly applying for promotions. Don't join a political party. Don't learn to drive. Don't pontificate and pose with Jews in Hendon or Arabs in Kensington. Don't attend Latin Mass. Don't read Anthony Powell or Michael Oakeshott or The Federalist Papers. Don't listen to Sidney Bechet or Django Reinhardt. Don't hold fancy seafood parties. Don't hold fancy seafood parties to a soundtrack of Sidney Bechet or Django Reinhardt, while discussing Anthony Powell with a Jew from Hendon and some Arabs from Kensington. Don't take out any subscriptions to any magazines. Don't try to become a teacher, or a lawyer. None of these things work or even make you look like an adult. Somehow, for some reason, some people grow up and settle down with kids and family by 30 or 35 as if it's the easiest and most obvious thing in the world, and they're a class apart; those who then sustain this incredible winning streak through their whole lives are marvels of Western Civ. -- they are also the ones to set and exemplify a template, a template the rest of us vainly try to emulate or achieve, or (with difficulty/bloody defiance) ignore. I am one of the doomed aspirers. I always wanted to conform to the idea of adulthood -- I liked the idea of adulthood in that whole boozy-breathed, broadsheet-reading, complicated-love-life Mad Men sort of way before Mad Men was ever broadcast or conceived. Being a kid is good while it's happening, being a teenager is miserable and exciting in equal measure: but a 30-year old dressing like a teenager or going to rock festivals or earnestly discussing a new Sugababes song struck me, at 25, as being the most shit, most embarrassing thing possible --and that was just as the Noughties was getting into full-swing, and the 30-something teens were swinging their prams around Victoria Park and what have you. I'm not saying I was right, mind you: the bogus "adult" pose was equally absurd. I'm the sort of tragic loser who's been trying to conform for years and constantly falling short, or getting it wrong, or being exposed as a fraud or an eccentric or a dreamer or a drunk or odd or antisocial. I have had some heroic failures, but they are not the sort of thing you boast about. I am the classic entry-ist who mostly can't enter, or gets in only to get kicked out again as soon as anybody recognises me. You don't even have the appetite to approach the door, Luka Vandross. I don't believe you are serious.

luka
10-07-2011, 08:46 AM
i love you craner. you are my mate.

luka
10-07-2011, 08:47 AM
i do want to understand how the world works though and that involves knowing a little about how the global economy works and some geopolitics.

luka
10-07-2011, 08:47 AM
essentially so i can smash you in debates/drunken arguments.

luka
10-07-2011, 08:58 AM
so get togthere with your mate vimothey and sort out a reading list and some homework.....

luka
10-07-2011, 09:07 AM
ive been rading a brief history of neoliberalism. youd hate it. its very prescient.

gumdrops
10-07-2011, 11:54 AM
not to derail the thread from luka, but how do you not dress like a teenager in your 30s? not going round wearing g star or rocawear or anything but i still wear t shirts and jeans. should i be wearing shirts and proper trousers all the time?

luka
10-07-2011, 01:38 PM
mms was banging on about this years ago. no t shirts, no denim etc. its all money tho innit. its just another drain on limited funds. its nice to have good clothes but id rather have a nice dinner and a few drinks, or buy some books, or go on a day trip somewhere nice. if youre rich nough not to have to make those choices then thats all well and good, othrwise....

Leo
10-07-2011, 02:18 PM
doubt there's one definitive answer to this question, and take heart that many people who appear to be grown ups are just bluffing their way thru as well. it's unrealistic to think you have to be an expert on everything. maybe just have a foundational understanding of various things and don't be shy about engaging people and asking how they feel about it. instead of feeling the pressure of having to pontificate on a subject, aim for engaging in a dialogue, where you don't have to carry all the weight yourself.

this might sound trivial, but an easy first step could be to read the economist. covers a vast range of topics (global/national news and politics, economy, culture), lots of serious stuff but because it's one of the best written mags around, it's very readable.

just a thought, and easier than buying a house, having a baby, etc.

vimothy
10-07-2011, 10:21 PM
Today, being a grown-up means that you pay for your copy of Call of Duty: Black Ops with your own money.

slim jenkins
22-07-2011, 08:35 AM
try, in the split second before seating yourself, just pinching the material of the trouser leg material across the thigh and lifting the leg upwards and inch or so, so you can see your ankle bones whilst seated - a small change but it could make all the difference.



Ha! Good one - done to avoid trousers getting baggy at the knees, but irrelevant now that no-one wears 'proper' trousers except to work in the office, of course.

Most Proper Grown Ups I've ever met have been boring as hell. I've rarely met PGU's on the domestic/career treadmill that still dream, play, create, or dare allow the mask of Proper Manhood to slip.

bob effect
22-07-2011, 10:59 AM
Grown up is buying toilet roll and kitchen roll and then actually buying some more toilet roll before it runs out so you don't have to use the kitchen roll as toilet roll. All else is lies.

STN
22-07-2011, 12:22 PM
I am planning to phase trainers out of my wardrobe by the time I am 35.

you
22-07-2011, 12:47 PM
I'd disagree, PGU's can use trainers - but, as I understand it, there must not be a visible air bubble in the sole and under no circumstances should there be velcro

slim jenkins
22-07-2011, 01:03 PM
No, trainers are a betrayal of the true, classic PGU ethos (circa 1971!). But if pushed, I'd allow a classic, smart, minimalist Italian trainer, in brown preferably (which is my rule anyway, although not in total detail, because anything else, ie white, thick-soled or JD Sports-style is plain naff). So there. Music? Bacharach not B-Boy...but I'm getting trapped in the 60/70s, admittedly. Burial fans are probably already citing him as PGU music compared to something currently being made by a teenage rude boy ranting patois through a megaphone to the sound of, er, a pit bull bark looped over...um...a Dyson bass line...I think that's what's 'in' now, I'm not sure...

Bang Diddley
22-07-2011, 10:51 PM
No, trainers are a betrayal of the true, classic PGU ethos (circa 1971!). But if pushed, I'd allow a classic, smart, minimalist Italian trainer, in brown preferably (which is my rule anyway, although not in total detail, because anything else, ie white, thick-soled or JD Sports-style is plain naff). So there. Music? Bacharach not B-Boy...but I'm getting trapped in the 60/70s, admittedly. Burial fans are probably already citing him as PGU music compared to something currently being made by a teenage rude boy ranting patois through a megaphone to the sound of, er, a pit bull bark looped over...um...a Dyson bass line...I think that's what's 'in' now, I'm not sure...

I bought some trainers last week. I still wear jeans and and a basic no logo T shirt. Can someone bump this who is > 40?.

http://www.dissensus.com/showthread.php?4976-Clothes/page69

Looks at Eden?, Dust? and Grevious Angel? Who else is > 40 on board ?

Bang Diddley
22-07-2011, 10:53 PM
I'd disagree, PGU's can use trainers - but, as I understand it, there must not be a visible air bubble in the sole and under no circumstances should there be velcro

Nods in agreement.

Leo
23-07-2011, 12:12 AM
Who else is > 40 on board ?

me...and still wear plenty of jeans/t-shirt/sneakers (trainers). then again, i'm self-employed and don't have to look grown up. still enjoy pulling off a night in a paul smith suit and proper shoes when i feel like it/need to, but don't do it often.

i recon being a PGU is actually more a matter of feeling comfortable in doing whatever you feel like doing, not what is stereotypically "expected" of you by society. there comes a point when you just don't worry or care much what other people expect or think.

mistersloane
23-07-2011, 12:49 AM
I bought some trainers last week. I still wear jeans and and a basic no logo T shirt. Can someone bump this who is > 40?.

http://www.dissensus.com/showthread.php?4976-Clothes/page69

Looks at Eden?, Dust? and Grevious Angel? Who else is > 40 on board ?

I smartened up a bit post 40, have stopped wearing obvious logos or designs mostly, no rips on jeans. I'm trying to find a decent tailor so I don't have concertina legs on my trousers/jeans anymore, being useless at that myself. Not looking so frayed, at least on the bottom half. A bit of fray round the cuffs is always a good look though I think.

I like seeing older guys in trainers, guys round my way wear the reebok/jeans/ironed short sleeved shirt down the pub and I like it, it looks vaguely intimidating, and casually sexual. It's hard to wear real shoes with jeans, so that then means shifting to trousers, which I've found hard unless I'm wearing a suit. I am actively looking in that direction though. I'm finding vintage clothing harder to wear, which makes me sad, being a lifelong secondhand clothes man. But it's exciting trying to find new clothes that look old.

Oh and if I do wear shoes or boots unless I'm goin to a squat, I polish them before I go out. That feels well grown up, and slightly sexual. I spent an hour in a squaddie's pub a while back being given the lowdown on how to get a proper shine. It was a very weird conversation.

I don't think you HAVE to do any things as you get older - growing old disgracefully is a dream, I have high hopes of an opium habit if I reach 60 - but I've started to feel stupid when I put on some of my old clothes, i just think 'nah mate, you can't pull that off anymore'.

Vim got it right though. The only thing that separates PGUs from Nons is buying software. It's like the biggest occult initiation ever. You're instantly adultine.

slim jenkins
23-07-2011, 07:52 AM
No-one's mentioned a paunch (for men, although young girls with pizza habits seem to get them quick nowadays) - they're PGU, with a beard, pushing a buggy, discussing mortgages, your child's education, health concerns etc. The current emerging gen of PGUs will obviously (as has been suggested) all still be wearing t-shirt/jeans/trainer combo although, as Mistersloane suggested, P shoes are a big step up. I suggest straight cut (not skinny) Levis with Loakes.

you
23-07-2011, 11:13 AM
those weird clarks work shoes, not particularly smart or casual just brown or black strange lace ups with a round toe and a rubber sole are very grown up aren't they, you always see an old bloke wearing them, but you never see them worn by anyone in pubs or clubs or young folk - train drivers might wear them.....

Bang Diddley
23-07-2011, 09:31 PM
No-one's mentioned a paunch (for men, although young girls with pizza habits seem to get them quick nowadays) - they're PGU, with a beard, pushing a buggy, discussing mortgages, your child's education, health concerns etc. The current emerging gen of PGUs will obviously (as has been suggested) all still be wearing t-shirt/jeans/trainer combo although, as Mistersloane suggested, P shoes are a big step up. I suggest straight cut (not skinny) Levis with Loakes.

Yeah 501's from natural blue and let them fade with brown shoes when not in Adidas trainers. Do all Loakes have leather soles ? (slipped in a pair of leather soles and never again), still like some of the Clarkes range, proper comfortable.

And thanks to however suggested the The Economist. I've been reading the website and am thinking of subbing to to it.

edit : I still have no idea about m0ney_s4ving_3xpert type of things, not done much switching between providers. I get Which for free but read about three pages of it. I'm sure I could save more money but it bores me stupid tho' i'm skint. I guess that a PGU does on a regular basis.

pattycakes
23-07-2011, 10:05 PM
those weird clarks work shoes, not particularly smart or casual just brown or black strange lace ups with a round toe and a rubber sole are very grown up aren't they, you always see an old bloke wearing them, but you never see them worn by anyone in pubs or clubs or young folk - train drivers might wear them.....

wallabees?

http://www.bennettsclothing.com/images/clarksWallalow_oiled.jpg

i've had 2 pairs, they're really comfortable and endorsed by the rza

Slothrop
23-07-2011, 10:36 PM
I like seeing older guys in trainers, guys round my way wear the reebok/jeans/ironed short sleeved shirt down the pub and I like it, it looks vaguely intimidating, and casually sexual.
Yeah, I think you're on point with this - and in a less smart way, generic white or black trainers with jeans and a plain T-shirt are fairly standard dad wear these days. In fact, I'd say that giving too much of a shit about the semiotics of your clothes probably marks you out as not a proper grown up anyway - by talking about "classic smart minimalist Italian trainers" Slim Jenkins immediately marks himself out as not a being one, more a slightly obsessive neo-mod or (less probably) a management-material young professional.

you
24-07-2011, 12:11 AM
wallabees?

http://www.bennettsclothing.com/images/clarksWallalow_oiled.jpg

i've had 2 pairs, they're really comfortable and endorsed by the rza

nah they are way too classic and stylish I was thinking of something even more non-descript and functional

http://www.shoes.com/ProductImages/shoes_iaec1085885.jpg

mistersloane
24-07-2011, 01:39 AM
Those shoes are the living 'I'm cheating on my wife' shoes. If I was a woman and my man came home wearin them, I'd dash him out the house in a second, right in front of the neighbours n all. I'd be like 'What SLAG you been FUCKIN then? GET OUT MY HOUSE!'.

They're like the gambler's tell of cheating. I wouldn't wear them.

slim jenkins
24-07-2011, 07:01 AM
Yeah, I think you're on point with this - and in a less smart way, generic white or black trainers with jeans and a plain T-shirt are fairly standard dad wear these days. In fact, I'd say that giving too much of a shit about the semiotics of your clothes probably marks you out as not a proper grown up anyway - by talking about "classic smart minimalist Italian trainers" Slim Jenkins immediately marks himself out as not a being one, more a slightly obsessive neo-mod or (less probably) a management-material young professional.

:D

I ain't a PGU that's for sure - as my 'missus' (who I'm not married to) reminds me when laying into me on a related subject. Re trainers, I got my preference mixed up with what PGUs really wear. Only in Italian cities do PGUs look the business. Here most wear bad suits.

PGUs have shares.

baboon2004
24-07-2011, 11:46 AM
Being a PGU is a dark place in Britain.

pattycakes
24-07-2011, 12:39 PM
nah they are way too classic and stylish I was thinking of something even more non-descript and functional

http://www.shoes.com/ProductImages/shoes_iaec1085885.jpg

eurgh, those! the ultimate functional footware. the kind of thing you see for sale in the back of the daily mail. don't forget that nerds also wear this kind of thing.

Bang Diddley
24-07-2011, 08:54 PM
eurgh, those! the ultimate functional footware. the kind of thing you see for sale in the back of the daily mail. don't forget that nerds also wear this kind of thing.

^^ They are horrible. As are the Wallabies, that crimping makes them look like a pie.

I was thinking on these lines. http://www.highsnobiety.com/news/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/clarks-desert-boots-front.jpg

Slothrop
24-07-2011, 11:11 PM
I think Mark in Peep Show is a pretty good (if unappealing) example of Proper Grown Up style - adequate but uninspiring suit for work, Blue Harbour range at Marks and Spencer for casual. In fact, from what I've seen of it, you could read the central characters as a sort of dialectical examination of how not to do the transition into PGUness.

slowtrain
25-07-2011, 05:07 AM
^^ They are horrible. As are the Wallabies, that crimping makes them look like a pie.

I was thinking on these lines. http://www.highsnobiety.com/news/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/clarks-desert-boots-front.jpg

Dunno about the UK but here in NZ those are the type of things people in the early 20's wear with their skinny jeans (or skinny khaki trousers) and fake military jackets

slowtrain
25-07-2011, 06:25 AM
I also think liking bitter foods helps make you a grownup.

you
25-07-2011, 10:17 AM
Dunno about the UK but here in NZ those are the type of things people in the early 20's wear with their skinny jeans (or skinny khaki trousers) and fake military jackets

certainly, I'd suggest that these clarks are too aesthetically pure, too stylish, to adhere to the PGU's sartorial paradigm.

another opportunity for laying a fat PGUism can be found at any high street coffee shop, rather than confidently ordering a coffee like a macchiato, flat white or latte or whatever - just squint a little at the chaotic menu overhead before throwing in the bombshell "do you do filter coffee?" - you never see a young bloke do this, but bodened up mums and greying dentists can pull this move with aplomb....

mistersloane
25-07-2011, 12:11 PM
certainly, I'd suggest that these clarks are too aesthetically pure, too stylish, to adhere to the PGU's sartorial paradigm.

another opportunity for laying a fat PGUism can be found at any high street coffee shop, rather than confidently ordering a coffee like a macchiato, flat white or latte or whatever - just squint a little at the chaotic menu overhead before throwing in the bombshell "do you do filter coffee?" - you never see a young bloke do this, but bodened up mums and greying dentists can pull this move with aplomb....

Oh dear. I do that.

Slothrop
25-07-2011, 12:25 PM
Oh dear. I do that.
Ha ha.

I tend to order plain black coffee, but I know enough to be able to identify the 'plain black coffee' option from the list of spurious made-up names they've got. I then either ask for it as 'americano' or 'black coffee' depending on how extensive and irritating the list of spurious made-up names is.

hucks
25-07-2011, 01:06 PM
Thing is, about reading the Economist or whatever, that all this policy wonkery, and economic wonkery; it's a young man's game. The people who really get excited about, say, quantitative easing, or US election results are not PGUs. They're in their 20s, lots of them are recent graduates.

The PGU approach to discussing, eg Greek default would be to suck in one's breath, say something about "the long term view" and advise the listener to buy gold. It's wisdom rather than knowledge. Which is loads easier to fake.

slowtrain
26-07-2011, 07:07 AM
Ha ha.

I tend to order plain black coffee, but I know enough to be able to identify the 'plain black coffee' option from the list of spurious made-up names they've got. I then either ask for it as 'americano' or 'black coffee' depending on how extensive and irritating the list of spurious made-up names is.

I always ask for a vienna (the most pretentious coffee available) and get grumpy and elitist if they don't know what I mean. It's actually a really nice thing to do, because when you get a barista who DOES know what it is, they feel really chuffed that they're all 'coffee pro'

I don't know if this is PGU or not, but it seems like it to me.

luka
26-07-2011, 08:02 AM
a vienna is the most rarely ordered coffee. i have gone mostly just to espresso which seems quite grown up alothough sometimes i order a piccolo latte if i have faith in their milk steaming skills.

empty mirror
27-07-2011, 12:27 PM
I have been affecting a PGU drag for a bit now. I have been wearing (plain front) trousers, oxford shirts (with button down collars) and loafers (penny, and tassel!) when I am not at work. Wearing a tie to the office while your co-workers walk in wearing a t-shirt, basketball shorts, and basketball shoes (this happened thirty seconds ago). Having two kids, a couple cars, and a mortgage helps. Reading your insurance policies (life, house, car) helps. Not knowing what is popular on the radio (do people still listen to that?) helps. Saying "tape" something on the DVR helps. Ironing your clothes and polishing your shoes feels proper grown-up. Hygiene, waking up early, all that puts you in the proper mindset. Gin in the summer, whiskey all the time. Watching Bogart films. Not smoking pot (or not letting on that you do, or have done). Complaining about teenagers - this is a big one. Calling the police on teenagers (did this for the first time this year). Carrying a tiny pocket knife for paring fruit. Reading newspaper on actual paper (I aspire to this but I am bad at reading current events). Reading non-fiction, for me I've been dipping into military history. As someone mentioned, a paunch.

luka
27-07-2011, 01:18 PM
empty mirror where have you been sourcing these items? i hav been having trouble finding an accptable supply of brouges and button downs.

Diggedy Derek
27-07-2011, 02:01 PM
How to bleed radiators.

empty mirror
27-07-2011, 03:18 PM
empty mirror where have you been sourcing these items? i hav been having trouble finding an accptable supply of brouges and button downs.
eBay, mainly. i've been after American brands, being an American in America.
i am always surprised that you English gents have so much sartorial strife. the English are known for their savvy in such matters, no?

i have a list of english purveyors of traditional/ivy clothing at home. i will painstakingly transcribe them here. incotex make great trousers (easy to find in the EU i would think).

off the top though, trickers make brogues that i would purchase if i weren't so fixated on the american makers Alden and Florsheim (vintage Florsheim). the user you i think would be an invaluable source for info about trickers, if i'm not mistaken. i am surprised he doesn't seem to post much in the clothing thread. trickers do sell discounted seconds on eBay and they ship out of the UK.

BareBones
27-07-2011, 03:34 PM
Being in a restaurant and ordering a bottle of wine that's not simply the cheapest / house option.

And then when the waiter asks if you want to taste it, actually tasting it with the real possibility of sending it back if you don't like it.

empty mirror
27-07-2011, 03:47 PM
i'd feel like the biggest asshole sending back a wine after sipping it
maybe because i am no wine connoisseur and lack the requisite knowledge and confidence

i returned a skunked beer to a belgian bar (in the states) and the bartender gave me the hardest time about it
like i'd never had a proper belgian beer before
dickhead

STN
27-07-2011, 03:53 PM
May be outing myself as a non-PGU, but isn't the wine poured out so you can confirm it's not corked? It's not done so you can send the wine back if you don't like it.

Hence, a PGU would not even need to taste the wine - only sniff it, then nod calmly but firmly.

STN
27-07-2011, 03:55 PM
PS - don't just order the second cheapest wine. Restaurants are all over that, and there's often a lower mark up on the cheapest than on the next cheapest.

I am confident this is PGU knowledge, and I give you all an avuncular beam while ruffling your hair.

luka
27-07-2011, 04:07 PM
th cheapest one you fel you can confidently pronounce the name of is th important thing.

BareBones
27-07-2011, 04:16 PM
haha! i'm quite happy to've got that so wrong, as i definitely don't feel ready to be a PGU yet.

Ransbeeck
27-07-2011, 06:22 PM
And when you like the wine, don't say it was good or that you like it. Just nod your head 'okay'.

You chose it and you're a knowledgeable grown up, so you obviously already knew it was good :cool:

empty mirror
27-07-2011, 08:03 PM
*plink plink plink*

i think a few more gray hairs popped up
thanks all!

john eden
28-07-2011, 12:52 PM
great thread :)

I think part of me has always been a grown up :(

Like with bleeding radiators and fixing stuff - I got given tools by one aunt for my birthday since I was about ten, had my own toolbox when sharing a house with people at college. Ended up doing things like putting a new lock on the front door on a Saturday morning because someone had come back pissed the night before and wrecked it.

In fact I still end up lending tools to another Dissensus poster who will remain nameless on a semi-regular basis :)

Quickest way to become a grown up is to get your girlfriend pregnant and then decide to buy a flat together, in my experience. That forces you to learn the essentials, and the rest you can just blag as you go along.

I survived in football conversations for years by saying that x team "was a bit weak in the midfield" before anyone noticed.

john eden
28-07-2011, 12:53 PM
Also, I still wear trainers and jeans. And t-shirts, but less than I used to.

Paul Meme got me a Shabba Ranks t-shirt for my birthday but I really don't think I can get away with that one.

bob effect
28-07-2011, 02:31 PM
great thread :)

I think part of me has always been a grown up :(

Like with bleeding radiators and fixing stuff - I got given tools by one aunt for my birthday since I was about ten, had my own toolbox when sharing a house with people at college. Ended up doing things like putting a new lock on the front door on a Saturday morning because someone had come back pissed the night before and wrecked it.

In fact I still end up lending tools to another Dissensus poster who will remain nameless on a semi-regular basis :)

In addition to that I'd just like to point out any fool can own a hammer or a drill. What sets you apart is when you start buying things like set squares or more than one type of chisel.

baboon2004
28-07-2011, 02:49 PM
I also think liking bitter foods helps make you a grownup.

This is so true. I still don't like them much, has to be said. Prefer Haribo. Until I feel sick.

m99188868
28-07-2011, 06:01 PM
I have to compliment Craner on his excellent list of things that won't make you a grown up. I'd just like to add that buying a house, getting a job, losing a job, buying vintage design furniture (before losing the job), listening exclusively to classical music, switching to jazz, reading lengthy essays on art and literature, doing a PhD, having a longterm relationship, considering photography lessons, frequenting critically acclaimed restaurants or visiting art galleries will equally not turn you magically into an adult being. My final hope is that having children will do the trick. If not, I really give up.

grizzleb
28-07-2011, 11:46 PM
Get a divorce.

bandshell
29-07-2011, 12:36 AM
You need at least one "friend" you thoroughly dislike, have known for years and still see semi-regularly.

Ulala
29-07-2011, 01:31 PM
You need at least one "friend" you thoroughly dislike, have known for years and still see semi-regularly.

This is true, though I fear I am that "friend" for many people. (And I'd hope for "have little in common with" rather than "thoroughly dislike", but I suspect it's probably an unhappy medium of the two, chiz.) When I do see them I try to be entertainingly drunk and foul-mouthed, so I will at least be memorable if not likeable.

There's an excellent episode of Seinfeld called 'Male Un-bonding' about this, where Jerry tries to 'break up' with a male friend, before concluding that you can't.

empty mirror
29-07-2011, 01:47 PM
I've got a friend of ten years that I sort of hate. That line Beckett appropriated from the Bible comes to mind: "Habit is the ballast that chains the dog to his vomit."

grizzleb
29-07-2011, 01:51 PM
PGUs don't seem to be wracked with self-loathing either.

Slothrop
29-07-2011, 02:05 PM
PGUs don't seem to be wracked with self-loathing either.

Maybe the really key thing of being a Grown Up is some sort of settling into your identity for the long haul? Losing the feeling that you're constantly blagging it or that you're "only doing [whatever] for a bit until something something something." It's not just having a house and a job, but also not being constantly surprised by that sort of thing... Not to say that grownups can never make big changes but change becomes the exception rather than the rule.

skull kid
31-07-2011, 06:07 AM
stop listening to rap music, start listening to jazz

Dr Awesome
31-07-2011, 11:33 AM
I'm sure there is some "To be a PGU you must first understand there is no PGU" type zen involved here. Then you can transcend by realising that no PGU would consciously think that there is such a thing as "being" a PGU, let alone making a thread about it and acronising* the term...


*New word?

you
31-07-2011, 12:20 PM
I'm sure there is some "To be a PGU you must first understand there is no PGU" type zen involved here. Then you can transcend by realising that no PGU would consciously think that there is such a thing as "being" a PGU, let alone making a thread about it and acronising* the term...


*New word?

verbitastic dr, - but then wouldn't that premise lead to the devastating situation of knowing that my pet goldfish qualifies as a PGU yet I do not...?

bandshell
31-07-2011, 12:26 PM
You need at least one brown item of clothing.

Mr. Tea
31-07-2011, 02:22 PM
PGUs, if they still take drugs or ever did, have a favourite drug other than weed. (Sorry, luka.) Even if they do still occasionally toke, they find nothing impressive about people who can roll 'impressive' spliffs. Also, they do not have a single particular album, or small set of albums, that they always smoke to.

Appreciating the appeal of good wines, single malt (or good brandy, whatever) and proper cocktails vs. the appeal of drugs is an important part of becoming a PGU, I think.


You need at least one brown item of clothing.

I have a friend whose wardrobe appears to consist mainly of brown. It suits him very well. On another guy of 30 it might look old-man-ish, but he just looks dapper without being overly affected. I bought a nice brown tweed suit last year, so by this criterion have only just graduated to PGU-dom. :)

blacktulip
31-07-2011, 04:33 PM
stop listening to rap music, start listening to jazz

I appear to be ageing backwards in that case.

grizzleb
31-07-2011, 11:00 PM
Also, they do not have a single particular album, or small set of albums, that they always smoke to.


Fuck, PTA's should be past this last bit. Although all too often I come across people for whom this is the case...*shudder*

Mr. Tea
01-08-2011, 12:03 AM
Fuck, PTA's should be past this last bit. Although all too often I come across people for whom this is the case...*shudder*

PTAs = Proper Teen-Agers? Dude, there are 30-somethings who own bongs. :eek:

you
01-08-2011, 10:08 AM
I know some old guys who use drugs - but this is something a PGU can only really do in some circumstances.... most jobs that PGU's have just wouldn't be able to balance I feel..... maybe im wrong.... but they never buy it, it's just something around them at the same time as having a drink - yknow? I think proper old school PGUs wouldn't touch it, 'you read enough about that sort of stuff in the paper'...

What about Golf? This is way grown up innit? I'd like to try it, a proper 18 hole course not just a driving range, I like jumpers, brogues, drinking, balls and the outdoors - I may enjoy it, plus you get to swack at stuff with a big club :-)....... *insert, used to go clubbing, now I go clubbing, OR now im on a different green type joke here - pick one, they're complimentary*

OH - and another thing.... Have you noticed on trains that PGU's don't really wear headphones quite so much - unless they are those noise cancelling bose ones?

luka
01-08-2011, 11:33 AM
i stop smoking weed every day ages ago after getting pneumonia and lying on a hospital bed with a drip out my arm and an oxygen mask on. when i was asleep somone stole my shoes from under my bed. thats was when i was in my early 20s. i have started smoking everey day again for periods, quite long periods mostly but th older i gete the longer th gaps between smoking. one even lasted a whole year. i dont get high whn i smoke so its a waste of time and money really.

Benny B
01-08-2011, 10:16 PM
i dont get high whn i smoke so its a waste of time and money really.

Yeah i'm like this as well, dunno why I still bother but I do. still fondly remember floating off into another dimension off 2 'buckets' when I was 15 and have been fruitlessly chasing that high ever since, to no avail.

craner
02-08-2011, 10:44 AM
OH - and another thing.... Have you noticed on trains that PGU's don't really wear headphones quite so much -

This is an important point.

BareBones
02-08-2011, 11:22 AM
Being more fastidious about ironing your clothes.

Slothrop
02-08-2011, 11:37 AM
Appreciating the appeal of good wines, single malt (or good brandy, whatever) and proper cocktails vs. the appeal of drugs is an important part of becoming a PGU, I think.

What about Golf?

Out of interest, are we talking about how to be a grownup or how to be upper middle class here?

luka
02-08-2011, 11:58 AM
mooning gnomes. you need some mooning gnomes in your front garden.

luka
02-08-2011, 02:31 PM
one or more paperweight.

Mr. Tea
02-08-2011, 04:41 PM
Out of interest, are we talking about how to be a grownup or how to be upper middle class here?

I like nice whisky and I'd hardly call myself 'upper middle class'! Let's say you've got a spare 50 knocking about - does it makes you 'upper middle class' to spend it on a bottle of really good single malt, or two excellent bottles of Burgundy, whereas it would be authentically 'working class' to blow it on a gram of charlie? (example not chosen at random, since drugs were the original context)

No idea about golf, though.

bandshell
02-08-2011, 04:46 PM
a spare 50 knocking about

If only...

Sick Boy
02-08-2011, 05:30 PM
Being a PGU really just comes down to not doing exactly what you want, when you want, all of the time, and taking at least some sense of pride and nobility in that fact.

you
02-08-2011, 05:55 PM
Being a PGU really just comes down to not doing exactly what you want, when you want, all of the time, and taking at least some sense of pride and nobility in that fact.

that's so true, I often feel most mature and grown up when I want the fish but the table orders red and I just end up with steak or lamb, opting for that rather than cause a fuss.... *fans repeatedly*

luka
03-08-2011, 07:55 AM
i know a lot of working class essex boys that love a round of golf. they have quite a hedonistic approach to golf that involvs getting wankerd and crashing golf carts into trees.

STN
03-08-2011, 10:37 AM
I went to buy washing powder yesterday. They didnt have my usual brand so I was stood in front of this immense array of pointless, incremental variation, feeling like one of our dads at Starbucks, which is to say not merely confused, but angrily confused, as though the vast range was the result of a personally directed conspiracy to annoy and baffle me. In the end I gave a weird grunt of tormented fury and plucked one from the shelf at random, which turns out to be the one that brings my girlfriend out in a rash.

This sort of aggressive helplessness in the face of something perfectly simple and (only very faintly) modern is quite important, I think.

Mr. Tea
03-08-2011, 10:49 AM
I went to buy washing powder yesterday. They didnt have my usual brand so I was stood in front of this immense array of pointless, incremental variation, feeling like one of our dads at Starbucks, which is to say not merely confused, but angrily confused, as though the vast range was the result of a personally directed conspiracy to annoy and baffle me. In the end I gave a weird grunt of tormented fury and plucked one from the shelf at random, which turns out to be the one that brings my girlfriend out in a rash.

This sort of aggressive helplessness in the face of something perfectly simple and (only very faintly) modern is quite important, I think.

I think the most PGU-ish phrase in this whole post is the words 'usual brand'.

STN
03-08-2011, 10:58 AM
sigh

STN
03-08-2011, 10:58 AM
that said, i still hoover up wine as though it's beer, often with disasterous results. This is definite non-PGU behaviour.

mistersloane
03-08-2011, 12:39 PM
i know a lot of working class essex boys that love a round of golf. they have quite a hedonistic approach to golf that involvs getting wankerd and crashing golf carts into trees.

Yeah I don't think golf is middle class anymore.

Corpsey
03-08-2011, 01:35 PM
PGUs don't seem to be wracked with self-loathing either.

I've been trying to avoid being a PGU for years because I equate being 'mature' with being miserable. But I'm starting to realise that I'm probably going to have to grow up soon or be miserable.

Part of me looks forward to a time when I would rather go on a nice walk than a hideous drugs binge.

luka
03-08-2011, 02:39 PM
executive toys are a good bet
http://britishgay.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/executivetoys.jpg

Leo
03-08-2011, 03:33 PM
i know some "successful" PGUs who are miserable, selling their soul to some horrible corporation because they are financially overextended with huge mortgage, kids' college tuition ($50k per year for top schools in the states!), summer house rentals, multiple cars, wife who has to have all the latest fashions every season, etc. in this economy, many are also worried about losing their high-paying jobs, cutthroat office politics, depressed about hair loss, need viagra (that's if the wife still gives him any at all anymore, LOL!), etc.

PGU, followed closely by mid-life crisis!!

Bettysnake
03-08-2011, 04:08 PM
I bought a nice brown tweed suit last year, so by this criterion have only just graduated to PGU-dom. :)

According to Jack Nicholson (http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/2011/jul/21/anjelica-huston-horrid-henry-the-movie) you should never give brown presents.

Mr. Tea
03-08-2011, 05:54 PM
I bought a nice brown tweed suit last year, so by this criterion have only just graduated to PGU-dom. :)

Actually it was just a jacket, not a whole suit. A whole tweed suit at 30 would be madness. I've got to take PGU-hood in baby steps (so to speak).

john eden
03-08-2011, 06:26 PM
sigh

That feeling that there is a conspiracy of bullshit is key.

I'm increasingly resistant to new things. Partly because having a historical perspective helps you realise that new isn't good in and of itself. Partly because so much change has happened around you that sucks, and you hanker after the old days. It's partly nostalgia. But it's partly the realisation that some things are actually getting worse.

Mr. Tea
03-08-2011, 07:06 PM
It's partly nostalgia. But it's partly the realisation that some things are actually getting worse.

Yeah, it's like "just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean they're not out to get you".

Leo
03-08-2011, 07:51 PM
That feeling that there is a conspiracy of bullshit is key.

I'm increasingly resistant to new things. Partly because having a historical perspective helps you realise that new isn't good in and of itself. Partly because so much change has happened around you that sucks, and you hanker after the old days. It's partly nostalgia. But it's partly the realisation that some things are actually getting worse.

it's all...RETROMANIA!!! :)

slowtrain
04-08-2011, 02:09 AM
That feeling that there is a conspiracy of bullshit is key.

I'm increasingly resistant to new things. Partly because having a historical perspective helps you realise that new isn't good in and of itself. Partly because so much change has happened around you that sucks, and you hanker after the old days. It's partly nostalgia. But it's partly the realisation that some things are actually getting worse.

I think this kind of stuff happens sooner and sooner nowadays as well, with technology speeding up. I'm only 20 but I hate having to use 'web 2.0' - always find myself getting grumpy and annoyed at "what - i have to sign in using my google account?'

I just want to go back to irc and complete segregation of the net from my real life.

Sometime I do almost break and down have a little cry over not knowing what sort of (eg washing powder, although i'm OK witht hat one - usually it is lunch or 'do i get the nice bread or the cheap bread' - esqu thigns) but I think taht that might be just me.

BareBones
04-08-2011, 12:41 PM
Yeah, it's like "just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean they're not out to get you".

YES, I'M PARANOID - BUT AM I PARANOID ENOUGH?

Ulala
04-08-2011, 12:53 PM
YES, I'M PARANOID - BUT AM I PARANOID ENOUGH?

Me, paranoid? Who told you that?

Mr. Tea
04-08-2011, 01:34 PM
Me, paranoid? Who told you that?

Oh, it's just a few people have been saying things...I wouldn't worry about it.

luka
04-08-2011, 03:08 PM
FREE THE MARKET, BE THE MARKET

Ness Rowlah
21-08-2011, 02:07 AM
on clothes:
- get a good smart/casual jacket ("blazer"): it goes with both "proper" clothes and jeans/tees-combo and you look OK in most environments without looking like a twerp (go to the sales, at the fag end of them you might be able to pick up a 300 quid jacket for 30 quid)
- Pique shirts might be a good compromise between tees and proper shirts (Fred Perry?)
- don't wear stuff with big logos and under no circumstance stuff the kids wear (A&F, Hollister, Jack Wills and all that shit)

golf: no way. I like the style of some of the attire (ie Lyle&Scott), but I'm with Mark Twain on the activity itself: I'd rather just walk.

jazz - yeah, but not all the time

--

- be prepared to change your opinion, it's a good thing
- say straight NO to things you don't like/don't want to do (like stupid work parties and the like).
- watch Newsnight once in a while (and if it gets too tedious just switch off)

hint
21-08-2011, 04:13 PM
Knowing the phonetic alphabet is a must for Proper Grown Ups. For reading out postcodes / reference numbers (for ongoing disputes about washing machine repairs etc.) over the phone and sounding like an Action Man.

I always end up saying stuff like "errr... Windy, 1, Neville, 4, Dog, Jumper".

zhao
21-08-2011, 04:32 PM
a proper grown up probabally thinks/worries about and have money a lot more than i do.

Mr. Tea
21-08-2011, 08:48 PM
I worry a good deal about money precisely because I don't have any at the moment. Hopefully that won't be the case for ever...I hate how long you always have to wait to hear back about interviews...

Ulala
22-08-2011, 12:11 AM
Knowing the phonetic alphabet is a must for Proper Grown Ups. For reading out postcodes / reference numbers (for ongoing disputes about washing machine repairs etc.) over the phone and sounding like an Action Man.

I always end up saying stuff like "errr... Windy, 1, Neville, 4, Dog, Jumper".

Not necessarily - it's the first thing they teach you when you work in a call centre, which is one of the least grown-up jobs of all. Learning it independently, though - yes.

It doesn't always make things clearer, anyway - one caller had mumbled his name, I wasn't sure if it was "Mr M Smith" or "Mr N Smith". Conscientiously using the phonetic alphabet, I asked "Is that 'M' as in 'Mike'?". His response, in an affronted voice, was "No! I'm called Matthew!".

Crap anecdotes? I got 'em.

you
30-08-2011, 01:47 PM
ulala - some people just don't actually know their alphabet, on more than one occasion this has happened to me in the past....

Me : 'is that Jay for Juliet or Gee for Golf?'
Caller : 'yes, Jay for Golf'
Me : 'errr so Jay or Gee'
Caller : 'definitely Jay, Jay like, Jay for good'
Me : 'ah, ok then'

sigh....

...my parents have crazy knowledge of things like flooring, wood types, granite worktops, curtains, where the hell do they learn this crap?

Dr Awesome
14-09-2011, 12:51 AM
Not necessarily - it's the first thing they teach you when you work in a call centre, which is one of the least grown-up jobs of all. Learning it independently, though - yes.

No sir,

You should have learned it during your formative years, reading Tom Clancy novels (Which is a good definition of a grown man).

baboon2004
14-09-2011, 11:07 AM
...my parents have crazy knowledge of things like flooring, wood types, granite worktops, curtains, where the hell do they learn this crap?

my parents have little of this, but still more than i do. yet i remember some old friends knowing an amazing amount of stuff about it...i guess some parents do pass on lots of this stuff. i feel slightly annoyed that i don't have this knowledge.

you
14-09-2011, 11:46 AM
there are so many things I do that I shouldn't but just dont know better, last weekend my dad caught me cramming food down the plug and...

dad - 'you can't do that'
me - 'why not, that's what it's there for, that's why the holes are big'
dad - 'yes, but it'll get blocked'
me - 'then why aren't the holes smaller'
dad - 'you shouldn't do it, you'll block it'

I know i'm very unpractical, but how do I know if no one tells me.

Saying about kitchen knowledge, it dawned on me the other day after sitting with my great uncle and grandma that it's nothing compared to proper local legal knowledge.., they talked about the various solicitors of the area and the comings and goings for half an hour, the majority of the information was acquired through friends or golf or both, shits next level fo sho. Knowing architects through friends that's well grown too - how do they get into this shit? Masonic Society?

Oh - and on that tip, David Starkey and Paxman both sport a gold ring with a red gem upon their pinky - what is this?? Co-incidence or something I can look into, significant or only connect?

Mr. Tea
14-09-2011, 12:37 PM
Oh - and on that tip, David Starkey and Paxman both sport a gold ring with a red gem upon their pinky - what is this?? Co-incidence or something I can look into, significant or only connect?

Starkey was given his Ring by Gil-galad before he went off to fight in the Last Alliance and Paxman's Ring was bestowed on him by Cirdan when Paxman appeared in a ship out of the West to combat the growing power of Sauron.

baboon2004
14-09-2011, 02:01 PM
i know some "successful" PGUs who are miserable, selling their soul to some horrible corporation because they are financially overextended with huge mortgage, kids' college tuition ($50k per year for top schools in the states!), summer house rentals, multiple cars, wife who has to have all the latest fashions every season, etc. in this economy, many are also worried about losing their high-paying jobs, cutthroat office politics, depressed about hair loss, need viagra (that's if the wife still gives him any at all anymore, LOL!), etc.

PGU, followed closely by mid-life crisis!!

yep, i think this is a correct analysis. You ahve to take the practical things from being a PGU, but refuse it as a lifestyle. Who the hell wants to be 'mature', when maturity connotes, well, selling one's soul and 'accepting things you can't change'? What a lifeless cop-out.

alex
14-09-2011, 03:02 PM
basically you should have a successful job, but with no mortgage, kids, wife or similar peice of shit drain on your income?

you
14-09-2011, 03:49 PM
Starkey was given his Ring by Gil-galad before he went off to fight in the Last Alliance and Paxman's Ring was bestowed on him by Cirdan when Paxman appeared in a ship out of the West to combat the growing power of Sauron.

Ha, that's mental! I'd always thought if Paxman was going to be given anything for his bravery it would be from Olw?!?!

Mr. Tea
14-09-2011, 04:03 PM
Ha, that's mental! I'd always thought if Paxman was going to be given anything for his bravery it would be from Olw?!?!

Way, WAY out-nerded. :(

Edit: would that be Olw Craner? :D

Leo
14-09-2011, 06:26 PM
basically you should have a successful job, but with no mortgage, kids, wife or similar peice of shit drain on your income?

i guess my point was i know some people who, in an effort to "keep up with the joneses" and be what they think society considers a PGU, get way overextended. it's perfectly possible to live a happy life with mortgage, kids, wife, etc. well, maybe not the wife bit. ;-)

Mr. Tea
14-09-2011, 07:06 PM
it's perfectly possible to live a happy life with mortgage, kids, wife, etc. well, maybe not the wife bit. ;-)

Oh man, you are in SO much shit if she uses your computer and happens to see the last few pages you've viewed...and posted on...may I suggest an emergency Delete Recent History? :)

Leo
14-09-2011, 07:15 PM
Oh man, you are in SO much shit if she uses your computer and happens to see the last few pages you've viewed...and posted on...may I suggest an emergency Delete Recent History? :)

ha, thanks for looking out for me!! she regularly accuses me of being a "cheeky monkey" (must be a british thing), so i think i'm safe.

hint
16-09-2011, 04:57 PM
What about viewing / buying a second hand car? Is there a Proper Grown-Up way to do this?

I went to see one last week, opened up the bonnet and then realised I had no idea what I was doing.

The only thing I could remember that someone once told me was checking for 4 matching tyres. If they're different brands, it's more likely that the rest of the car hasn't been cared for apparently.

you
16-09-2011, 11:03 PM
Ha, just get a decentish car with a full service history or ask the garage to renew it's MOT for you, that's pretty much it.

I totally played a car dealer and his manager at their own game when I got my car, will post it... maybe later.

hint
17-09-2011, 02:31 PM
Ha, just get a decentish car with a full service history or ask the garage to renew it's MOT for you, that's pretty much it.

My current car is only 6 years old and had full service history. But it has ended up needing a whole new engine within a year of buying it, after a couple of ineffective but expensive repairs, so I'm a bit cautious!

I feel like I should be a bit more thorough when looking for a replacement. Are those AA / RAC checks worth the money?

you
18-09-2011, 02:49 PM
what the vehicle inspections? they'd be good to avoid issues - If i needed to have a car data check i'd avoid it tbh, just find a garage with full history of repairs and owners.