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luka
07-08-2011, 10:37 AM
-salute-

Mr. Tea
07-08-2011, 01:10 PM
Yeah, take that you fascist BUS!

Edit: I think a better response would have been "Fucksake luka, grow up".

luka
07-08-2011, 01:24 PM
i more or less made this thread to get you to say somthing like that tea! i always know where your sympathies will lie.

luka
07-08-2011, 01:25 PM
you are sort of like my barometer of where middle englands head is at. you are the personification of a certain breed of englishman. not a bad sort of englishman exactly, just a very generic type i suppose. the standard model.

luka
07-08-2011, 01:28 PM
thats not meant maliciously in any way. its just an observation.

luka
07-08-2011, 01:28 PM
in the same way you can always tell what droid will say on a politics thread.

luka
07-08-2011, 01:30 PM
it doesnt mean he's not right, just that you can predict what he will think about any subject without asking him his opinion. some people are lik that.

hucks
07-08-2011, 01:36 PM
I like that they looted CarpetRight. The pictures are fucking incredible, eg http://t.co/vn1n6wD


The looting in wood green seems quite opportunistic. Obviously it's near, but it was going on without the police knowing a fucking thing, cos they were over on tottenham high street.

luka
07-08-2011, 01:38 PM
pictures of riots are always lovely to look at.

luka
07-08-2011, 01:42 PM
you remind me a lot of
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/07/charlie-gilmour-prison-david-mitchell

Mr. Tea
07-08-2011, 01:43 PM
i more or less made this thread to get you to say somthing like that tea! i always know where your sympathies will lie.

I could kind of tell that as soon as I saw it...

Never mind.

luka
07-08-2011, 01:46 PM
i absolutely know where you are coming from and to an extent i agree

luka
07-08-2011, 01:47 PM
i feel terrible for th dear old grannies sitting terrified in their flats. and the small buisness owners and all the rest of it. honest i really do.

luka
07-08-2011, 01:49 PM
but there is something, i dont know if its the complacency or what, about the david mitchell/mr tea, common sense, reasonable adult view point that i find a bit frightening. never go too far in any direction. its wisdom, up to a point, but at the same time its evil. i dont know, its a quandry. its something i think about.

luka
07-08-2011, 01:52 PM
i dont want to keep banging on about it till i get into trouble and feel ashamed of myself in the morning. i just want to register my disquiet. there. done it. i am disquieted. in a mild way.

Mr. Tea
07-08-2011, 02:01 PM
I could kind of tell that as soon as I saw it...


It's like what Nomad said once about the long-time regulars here being like an old married couple who finish each other's sentences.

I could tell you were sort-of joking, because you're the board's designated joker - it's just that that "oh man, violence is so cool" thing winds me up, even if it's half in jest. And I believe you about your sympathies for all the innocent people affected by this, I really do. I mainly find the whole thing just depressing.

baboon2004
07-08-2011, 02:10 PM
But really, how long was it gonna be after the Tories started dismantling Britain til 'rioting' started in deprived areas of Britain?

I hate the media insinuation (even in the supposedly left-wing press) that poor people are somehow essentially more inclined to violence/ 'mindless' 'thuggery'. I think you'll find there's a fucking CONTEXT for that.

It is indeed very depressing that violence in poor areas ends up most affecting poor people though, definitely. I think people should take a leaf out of the book of French banlieue kids' books and go to rich areas to 'riot' (at least that happened a couple of times when I was there, not sure if it's a regular thing)

Residents said they had been driven from their homes and had lost everything. Stuart Radose had to flee his flat above a Carpetright shop in Tottenham High Road as fire ravaged the building.

"We've gone back this morning and it's a complete shell," he told Sky News. "Everything we had is gone. It's just mad. So many people have lost everything. It's just crazy. It looks like it's the second world war. It looks like the Blitz where we were living."

He said he had watched from his balcony as "things were getting worse and worse". "There didn't seem to be a police presence at all," he added. "Buildings seemed to be allowed to burn. I guess they couldn't get there.

"I think we've probably spent our last night in Tottenham. We're just in shock."

mistersloane
07-08-2011, 02:13 PM
riot picnics

pattycakes
07-08-2011, 02:33 PM
but there is something, i dont know if its the complacency or what, about the david mitchell/mr tea, common sense, reasonable adult view point that i find a bit frightening. never go too far in any direction. its wisdom, up to a point, but at the same time its evil. i dont know, its a quandry. its something i think about.


fucking hell, yeah. all smugly rational. so annoying.

Mr. Tea
07-08-2011, 02:42 PM
So the answer is what - a cultivated irrationality? I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not. It just reminds me of hundredmillionlifetimes' endless attacks on "commonsense".

And Baboon is dead right, the people who've suffered here are the people in Tottenham who've lost their homes and businesses. People who have nothing to do with the government or the police, or with gun-toting criminals either.

baboon2004
07-08-2011, 02:51 PM
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/jul/29/young-people-gangs-youth-clubs-close

the guardian partly redeems itself for the awfulness of its lead reporting

sufi
07-08-2011, 02:58 PM
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/jul/29/young-people-gangs-youth-clubs-close

the guardian partly redeems itself for the awfulness of its lead reporting
so all it takes are a couple of triggers:
2 police cars on fire in tottenham yesterday evening
http://dannyhackett.wordpress.com/2011/08/07/the-tottenham-riots/
& then after t-mobile over in wood green got smashed up and police did not respond the whole street got mugged within a few hours
http://dyingbreed-27.blogspot.com/2011/08/n17-n22.html
http://www.harringayonline.com/forum/topics/local-impacts-of-last-night
in n13 it was sirens & helicopters all night long
i could really do with a new laptop if anyone's out this evening, looks like rain tho :(

sufi
07-08-2011, 03:06 PM
[]:rolleyes:

gumdrops
07-08-2011, 04:17 PM
exactly what i am saluting? the people whose shops got looted? or the people who have to work and live in that area who probably got something of theirs destroyed? if they all robbed tesco or argos i could kind of see some sort of skewed 'sticking it to the man' type angle but most likely it was small business owners who dont have that much money to spend on looters and rioters and generally dickheads fucking over their property.

that said, yeah, i salute the protest. just not what followed.

its still not clear if the guy shot the police or not is it?

gumdrops
07-08-2011, 04:32 PM
also id like to see people 'saluting' this kind of thing in their own neighbourhood. 'yeah good on you burning down the building my flat is in! nice one!'

i know people are tying this to the cuts and so on, but its prob just to do with ongoing resentment about police brutality in the black community. but if this guy shot at the police - still not confirmed i know - then you cant expect police not to do anything about it. unless im totally off base, its odd that this issue is not even being touched on in the papers yet. i mean if you wanna riot cos of the cuts, lack of education and jobs, poor services in the area, do that, but if youre a guy shooting at the fucking police, everyone knows whats gonna happen and its not going to be pretty.

Mr. Tea
07-08-2011, 05:56 PM
that said, yeah, i salute the protest. just not what followed.

its still not clear if the guy shot the police or not is it?

Well every report I can find says a copper was taken to hospital after getting shot. Seems unlikely the dead guy would have been able to respond if he'd been hit first with two shots from an H&K.

highhhness
07-08-2011, 07:57 PM
it's just that that "oh man, violence is so cool" thing winds me up,
.........

mistersloane
07-08-2011, 08:37 PM
fuck it's all kicked off

Initial ballistics tests on the bullet that lodged in a police officer's radio when Mark Duggan died on Thursday night show it was a police issue bullet, the Guardian understands.

luka
07-08-2011, 11:25 PM
the sense i get from highness, gumdrops and tea is you should all just behave yourself like responsible adults when i think that its probably fair to say there is a war being waged against the people of the world. in some sense there is a war on and doing as your told is probably not the best way to respond to a situation like that. i know this is the new dissensus full of dsf refugees and as such basically dull and reactionary, middlebrow middle england parochial mediocre unimaginative flat footed and slow witted (with two, maximum three exceptions) but cant they just stick to the dubstep and post-dubstep threads and not clog up the other ones with boring comments? there was a girl i was talking to that was saying the greeks shouldnt protest becasu they are 'harming tourism' well yeah they are, so were the protestors in egypt, they did terrible damage to the tourism industry... its vry reveling though isnt it... that sort of comment....

mistersloane
07-08-2011, 11:55 PM
If someone is on tweeter could you tell the youth that a double decker should be pushed lengthways across the road before you set in on fire where it becomes an effective barrier between you and mounted police.

And Buckingham Palace on fire next please as a request.

MEET @ PARLIAMENT 2MORROW 2 SHOW DEM WHO RUN STREETS.

mistersloane
08-08-2011, 12:26 AM
Twitter is kindof amazing for this, I've not understood it before.

Brixton, Enfield, Dalston, Walthamstow, Palmers Grn, Ponders End, Earlsfield and Westfield so far rumours and confirmed stuff.

zhao
08-08-2011, 03:38 AM
when something like this happens and get talked about on dissensus i am reminded of who i am, and who i am with.

Mr. Tea
08-08-2011, 08:50 AM
the sense i get from highness, gumdrops and tea is you should all just behave yourself like responsible adults when i think that its probably fair to say there is a war being waged against the people of the world. in some sense there is a war on and doing as your told is probably not the best way to respond to a situation like that.

What, by waging war on their own community? Yeah, great, that'll show 'em.

And you can fuck off with this patronising "flat-footed, dull-witted" bollocks, as if getting a hard-on for a bunch of kids nicking phones and trainers makes you this far-out radical intellectual.

gumdrops
08-08-2011, 08:52 AM
im not saying dont protest cos it will hurt tourism, im saying dont loot and burn places in your own backyard. its quite a big difference luka. it might look cool in a 'ruin porn' flickr slideshow but its not so great to live in. i know ppl that own small businesses and this is the sort of shit that they shouldnt have to put up with. from a wider perspective, yeah this kind of thing makes headlines and gets peoples attention to the fact that people are angry. but at the end of the day the kids looting clothes shops for bags of g star gear werent likely doing it cos they wanted to make a stand for justice.

hucks
08-08-2011, 08:56 AM
Twitter is kindof amazing for this, I've not understood it before.

Brixton, Enfield, Dalston, Walthamstow, Palmers Grn, Ponders End, Earlsfield and Westfield so far rumours and confirmed stuff.

Yeah, twitter's by far the best way to follow something like this. But\ inevitably there was so much rumour to separate from the fact. Also it's often just the same tweet retweeted over and over.

Apparently my local Argos got trashed last night so will check it out on my way to work for which I am late. Argos is a dumb place to trash, cos all the stock is hidden away at the back.

gumdrops
08-08-2011, 08:57 AM
maybe the looters all lined up and got a numbered ticket.

gumdrops
08-08-2011, 09:01 AM
now this makes a bit more sense -
http://twitpic.com/62q1p0

gumdrops
08-08-2011, 09:30 AM
surprised all you armchair revolutionaries arent advocating they go and burn and loot more well off areas instead. surely that would make more sense. but then i suppose theres only so many delis and cake shops you can get stuff from.

mistersloane
08-08-2011, 10:25 AM
Yeah, twitter's by far the best way to follow something like this. But\ inevitably there was so much rumour to separate from the fact. Also it's often just the same tweet retweeted over and over.
.

There was a media blackout while it was going on - NOTHING on BBC, Sky, Guardian shut down from 12.58 - the only way you could find out information was through twitter. LBC and 5live both had phone ins going on with people phoning in what was happening but both were so reactionary it was funny.

luka
08-08-2011, 10:56 AM
peoples reactions to this sort of thing are endlessly fascinating.

droid
08-08-2011, 11:00 AM
1. From what I hear, Duggan was shot 4 times whilst lying on the ground after being restrained. The injured cop was miraculously saved as the bullet fired at him hit his radio/bible/piece of the true cross and was released from hospital after 24 hrs, and he was apparently shot by a police bullet (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/blog/2011/aug/07/tottenham-riots-police-duggan-live).

Obviously the Police are not to be believed about pretty much everything.

2. I cant quite predict exactly what Luka is going to say on any topic, but I can usually guarantee that it will be stupid, ill-considered and needlessly personalised.

mistersloane
08-08-2011, 11:49 AM
1. From what I hear, Duggan was shot 4 times whilst lying on the ground after being restrained. The injured cop was miraculously saved as the bullet fired at him hit his radio/bible/piece of the true cross and was released from hospital after 24 hrs, and he was apparently shot by a police bullet (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/blog/2011/aug/07/tottenham-riots-police-duggan-live).

Obviously the Police are not to be believed about pretty much everything.

2. I cant quite predict exactly what Luka is going to say on any topic, but I can usually guarantee that it will be stupid, ill-considered and needlessly personalised.

Where's the info about 4 shots droid? I can only find people saying two.

gumdrops
08-08-2011, 11:49 AM
the cause is the same issue thats been deeply entrenched in the black community for decades - police brutality. the later events, im not so sure about. ive heard its cos a 16 yr old was hit by police but this is the sort of thing that is never going away and just boils over every so often and will continue to do so as long as this never changes. but im still divided on whether the unfocused nature of the rioters' targets means we can really look at burning footlocker and raiding H&M as political rage. i think like most riots its just anger or hormones pouring over, kids just angry and needing to unleash it somewhere/somehow.

baboon2004
08-08-2011, 12:20 PM
the cause is the same issue thats been deeply entrenched in the black community for decades - police brutality. the later events, im not so sure about. ive heard its cos a 16 yr old was hit by police but this is the sort of thing that is never going away and just boils over every so often and will continue to do so as long as this never changes. but im still divided on whether the unfocused nature of the rioters' targets means we can really look at burning footlocker and raiding H&M as political rage. i think like most riots its just anger or hormones pouring over, kids just angry and needing to unleash it somewhere/somehow.

I think concentrating on exact cause-and-effect mechanisms is a bit of a red herring , agreed. There was a trigger (the Duggan murder) which brought to the fore lots of angry associations in many people's minds - police brutality, everyday racism/classism, poverty, lack of opportunity, lack of voice etc etc etc - which itself became a force dislocated from the original trigger.

I agree with what you've said, but where is the line between 'political rage' and just pure social anger? i dont' think there IS any clear line outside the imagination oof the media... just as students in December weren't ONLY going on the demo out of 'political rage', but also for a whole range of other reaons, some social, some to do with personal psychology.

Difference in reporting this time around is that people ove rthe weekend weren't given the luxury of having personal, complex psychologies, as most weren't middle class - instead they were just labelled 'scum'. I think discourse and rhetoric becomes just as important as facts in cases like this.

Edit: In a late capitalist society that values profit creation over people and entrenches class divides every day, violence enacted against uber-capitalist chains (it's a pity small businesses were targetted too, which is imo unforgivable) becomes an act of political protest, perhaps? Discuss....

john eden
08-08-2011, 12:22 PM
1. From what I hear, Duggan was shot 4 times whilst lying on the ground after being restrained. The injured cop was miraculously saved as the bullet fired at him hit his radio/bible/piece of the true cross and was released from hospital after 24 hrs, and he was apparently shot by a police bullet (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/blog/2011/aug/07/tottenham-riots-police-duggan-live).

Obviously the Police are not to be believed about pretty much everything.


The IPPC made a point of stating that

"Speculation that Mark Duggan was ‘assassinated’ in an execution style involving a number of shots to the head are categorically untrue. Following the formal identification of the body Mr Duggan’s family know that this is not the case and I would ask anyone reporting this to be aware of its inaccuracy and its inflammatory nature."

http://www.ipcc.gov.uk/news/Pages/pr070811_statement.aspx

I think this was one of the key messages circulating around rioters in Tottenham at the weekend.

It's not even clear who the gun that was recovered at the scene belonged to. The one photo of Duggan in the press holding up "gun fingers" are paraded out again and again, unhelpfully.

Another rumour is that the initial trouble commenced when police batoned a 16 year old girl who was protesting peacefully outside the cop shop.

john eden
08-08-2011, 12:24 PM
I also think "taking sides" for or against rioters is completely stupid.

droid
08-08-2011, 12:33 PM
The IPPC made a point of stating that

"Speculation that Mark Duggan was ‘assassinated’ in an execution style involving a number of shots to the head are categorically untrue. Following the formal identification of the body Mr Duggan’s family know that this is not the case and I would ask anyone reporting this to be aware of its inaccuracy and its inflammatory nature."

http://www.ipcc.gov.uk/news/Pages/pr070811_statement.aspx

I think this was one of the key messages circulating around rioters in Tottenham at the weekend.


Yeah, I saw that. Im not sure he would have had to be shot repeatedly in the head for it be an execution TBH.

What is clear at this stage is that the Police version of events is bullshit. Just like Tomlinson, Smiley etc...

Do people trust the IPCC anyway? Genuine question.

john eden
08-08-2011, 12:39 PM
Yes it is interesting in its wording and timing, as much as the content.

The IPCC are being criticised all over this year - not sure if people saw my blog post:
http://www.uncarved.org/blog/2011/08/bars-for-change-who-polices-the-police/

The film includes Brian Paddick criticising their "independence".

Also points out that they were on the scene in hours, which is unusual. Tottenham rings alarm bells, I think.

I don't know anyone who trusts them, but then I wouldn't, would I?

http://s3.amazonaws.com/twitpic/photos/full/135436399.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAJF3XCCKACR3QDMOA&Expires=1312804721&Signature=LZLIV6Ylyqanen7tMUMgKL9Fnjk%3D

DannyL
08-08-2011, 12:48 PM
I think concentrating on exact cause-and-effect mechanisms is a bit of a red herring , agreed. There was a trigger (the Duggan murder) which brought to the fore lots of angry associations in many people's minds - police brutality, everyday racism/classism, poverty, lack of opportunity, lack of voice etc etc etc - which itself became a force dislocated from the original trigger.

I agree with what you've said, but where is the line between 'political rage' and just pure social anger? i dont' think there IS any clear line outside the imagination oof the media... just as students in December weren't ONLY going on the demo out of 'political rage', but also for a whole range of other reaons, some social, some to do with personal psychology.

Difference in reporting this time around is that people ove rthe weekend weren't given the luxury of having personal, complex psychologies, as most weren't middle class - instead they were just labelled 'scum'. I think discourse and rhetoric becomes just as important as facts in cases like this.

EDIT: Because to judge from the lengths sentencing at the student protests, when this goes to court, they're going to get the fucking book thrown at them.

Edit: In a late capitalist society that values profit creation over people and entrenches class divides every day, violence enacted against uber-capitalist chains (it's a pity small businesses were targetted too, which is imo unforgivable) becomes an act of political protest, perhaps? Discuss....

Spot on.Just to be more specific about some of your triggers, there's the retraction of EMA and the right to a University Education, as part of the general program of disenfranchisement. I also wondered about the use of "flash mobs", BBM etc as a response to kettling which many of them will have been made aware of from student protests earlier this year.

It feels to me pretty inevitable that some of my pupils will have been caught up in this. I hope not many of them, and none so bad that it fucks up their chances for the long term.

gumdrops
08-08-2011, 12:48 PM
dont think you can look at the destruction of the chains as political - mcds is bloody cheap. its just riot behaviour. it has no rules. you can look at it as being unable to take part in consumerism lashing out at the agents of capitalism that make them want stuff they cant afford but looters just loot, and they loot from places they want stuff, wherever it is, and they also destroy places, no matter what they are, its hard to really come out with coherent rules/readings for their behaviour.

john eden
08-08-2011, 01:01 PM
im not saying dont protest cos it will hurt tourism, im saying dont loot and burn places in your own backyard.

I think it's too easy to say that places like Tottenham retail park are part of the rioters "community". I'm not sure it is, except geographically.

In terms of economics I think it's more part of my community - I drive up there and go to B&Q or Maplins or whatever. And I don't get followed around by security guards or made to feel unwelcome either. As usual my experience as 42 year old white man is rather different from that of a Tottenham teenager.

vimothy
08-08-2011, 01:03 PM
What I find interesting is the idea that if this was mindless looting and violence, then it was bad, but if people were stealing shoes and plasma screen tvs as a protest against police brutality or (even more tenuous) neoliberalism, i.e. if it was somehow "political", then it was okay.

Another thing that I find interesting is why non-police brutality doesn't get people so excited. Mark Duggan was supposedly a member of the same criminal gang as Mark Lambie, who was convicted of the kidnap and torture of two Tottenham men in 2002. Were there anti-Mark Lambie riots and looting? I certainly don't remember any.

A twenty year old man was shot and killed at a bus stop in London early on Saturday morning, though not by the police (unless this is part of a sinister cover-up, of course)--will there be riots and looting to protest his death? And what about the youth stabbed in Enfield during the riots last night--will the looters be out again tonight to protest against their own brutality to themselves?

gumdrops
08-08-2011, 01:05 PM
"Another thing that I find interesting is why non-police brutality doesn't get people so excited."

um, cos they are paid for by the public to protect us?

vimothy
08-08-2011, 01:06 PM
Protect you from whom?

john eden
08-08-2011, 01:08 PM
Protect you from whom?

criminals - who people generally expect to act like criminals.

Most people do not expect the police to act like criminals. Although we are used to having our expectations lowered.

luka
08-08-2011, 01:08 PM
vimothy you are at your dullest when you are being deliberatly obtuse. drop that act.

gumdrops
08-08-2011, 01:11 PM
I think it's too easy to say that places like Tottenham retail park are part of the rioters "community". I'm not sure it is, except geographically.

they might not want it to be, but it is. if you consider most kids arent likely to have weekly travelcards riding around london (then again kids do get discount travel rates) theyre likely to spend more time in their local area. plus a lot of kids seem obsessed with their local areas/ends now more than ever before. whether this includes trying to keep it from getting burned to the ground of course is something else entirely. they probably dont really give a shit.

Mr. Tea
08-08-2011, 01:12 PM
1. From what I hear, Duggan was shot 4 times whilst lying on the ground after being restrained. The injured cop was miraculously saved as the bullet fired at him hit his radio/bible/piece of the true cross and was released from hospital after 24 hrs, and he was apparently shot by a police bullet (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/blog/2011/aug/07/tottenham-riots-police-duggan-live).


This is totally fucking nuts, if true - starts to look like an extra-judicial execution. Where did you hear about him being shot while restrained, droid?

john eden
08-08-2011, 01:16 PM
they might not want it to be, but it is. if you consider most kids arent likely to have weekly travelcards riding around london (then again kids do get discount travel rates) theyre likely to spend more time in their local area. plus a lot of kids seem obsessed with their local areas/ends now more than ever before. whether this includes trying to keep it from getting burned to the ground of course is something else entirely. they probably dont really give a shit.

My point is that they're not made to feel welcome there, so it isn't surprising that they feel antagonistic towards it. I doubt many of the teenagers who were out on Saturday give a shit about buying compost from B&Q.

There's a strange paternalistic undercurrent to a lot of this. Tutting at teenagers for burning things down per se, or burning down the wrong things, or burning down the right things but in the wrong area.

gumdrops
08-08-2011, 01:21 PM
http://worldblog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/08/07/7292281-the-sad-truth-behind-london-riot

LONDON -- As political and social protests grip the Middle East, are growing in Europe and a riot exploded in north London this weekend, here's a sad truth, expressed by a Londoner when asked by a television reporter: Is rioting the correct way to express your discontent?

"Yes," said the young man. "You wouldn't be talking to me now if we didn't riot, would you?"

The TV reporter from Britain's ITV had no response. So the young man pressed his advantage. "Two months ago we marched to Scotland Yard, more than 2,000 of us, all blacks, and it was peaceful and calm and you know what? Not a word in the press. Last night a bit of rioting and looting and look around you."

Eavesdropping from among the onlookers, I looked around. A dozen TV crews and newspaper reporters interviewing the young men everywhere.

The truth is that discontent has been simmering among Britain's urban poor for years, and few have paid attention. Social activists say one out of two children in Tottenham live in poverty. It's one of the poorest areas of Britain. Britain's worst riots in decades took place here in 1985. A policeman was hacked to death. After these riots, the same young man pointed out, "They built us a swimming pool."

Poverty, joblessness cycle
Police and local leaders in Tottenham made real progress in improving community relations in the intervening years and that's true about all of Britain. The best way to prevent crime, the theory goes, is to improve the lot of the people, then they won't need to commit crimes. But caught in a poverty and joblessness cycle, young people in many British urban areas have little hope of a better life.

So when a local 29-year-old father, described by police as a gangster, was shot dead by an officer, the response came quickly.

Mark Duggan was killed Thursday. On Saturday night about 50 relatives and friends protested outside the Tottenham police station.
Local young men, almost all with their heads covered by hoods -- known here as "hoodies" -- took advantage to indulge themselves in a favorite sport: cursing the police. This quickly escalated into a night of hurling rocks, bottles (Jack Daniels, one young man told me -- "we broke into the liquor store, drank the Jack Daniels and threw the bottles at the cops"), burning two patrol cars, torching buildings, smashing shop windows and carting off hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of phones, cameras and clothes.

The looting and rioting had nothing at all to do with the killing of Mark Duggan. That was the spark. The bonfire had been prepared by years of neglect, fueled by the anger of young men with no stake in the system, angry at everybody and quick to exploit fury at the killing of a local man, even if he did allegedly fire at the police officer first.

So now the question people in Tottenham are asking is: Will the government pay attention to the social issues underlying the anger?

And a wider question is: Would anyone care at all if there had not been violence?

droid
08-08-2011, 01:26 PM
This is totally fucking nuts, if true - starts to look like an extra-judicial execution. Where did you hear about him being shot while restrained, droid?

Various reports of the same eyewitness testimony:


An eye witness has painted a worrying picture. The 20 year old witness has said that he came around the corner and then saw about six unmarked police cars which was cornering a people carrier near a bus stop.

He heard the police shout something like do not move and then he saw them drag the driver out of the car.

He was not sure if they dragged the other guy out in the passenger seat. This was Mark Duggan and he was the one who got shot and was the passenger.

The taxi driver was unharmed. The shot by Mark Duggan appears to of taken place as police approached the vehicle to make a pre planned arrest. It is not known yet if police were in plain clothes or uniform.

After removing the men from the vehicle (this story suggests Mark surrendered) there were three or four police officers who had both men pinned onto the ground at gunpoint.

The witness said that they were carrying really big guns and that he heard four loud shots.

He claims the police shot him while he was on the floor

This witness has not been proven to be reliable, but other media sources are reporting the same thing, and if true this looks like an execution killing, though please remember this may not be correct, and is highly unlikely.

gumdrops
08-08-2011, 01:28 PM
the fact the guardian say the bullet in the radio was police issue is pretty dodgy sounding but im gonna wait til theres confirmation of what happened. but it wouldnt be surprising if the police reacted totally disproportionately.

luka
08-08-2011, 01:32 PM
So now the question people in Tottenham are asking is: Will the government pay attention to the social issues underlying the anger?

And a wider question is: Would anyone care at all if there had not been violence?

a) no. when is the last time the british goverment was interested in full employment? people say, oh they could get a job if theey wanted one. well, some could, some couldnt. unemployment is necesary and inevitable under current conditions. further, who wants a shitty job? ive got one and its nothing to writ home about. its pretty tedious time consuming and energy sapping. its not much of a world to be born into.

b)no. se start of article.

muser
08-08-2011, 01:36 PM
looting is just an inevitable byproduct of rioting in alot of cases, and full blown riots are just collective mania, everyones just on a mad adrenaline rush. theres not alot of difference at the most destructive stage between for example people burning down woodstock for no particular reason imo regardless of the cause or how much real anger/passion/resentment the rioters hold.

Allthough I think maybe the attempts to instigate more riots for no real reason could be as symptomatic of the media trying to make out that these eruptions of mass-hysteria are somehow relevant to anything, the seed is relevant and the protesting, the rioting itself isn't at all but thats what they want in the lime-light.

HMGovt
08-08-2011, 01:41 PM
the sense i get from highness, gumdrops and tea is you should all just behave yourself like responsible adults when i think that its probably fair to say there is a war being waged against the people of the world. in some sense there is a war on and doing as your told is probably not the best way to respond to a situation like that. i know this is the new dissensus full of dsf refugees and as such basically dull and reactionary, middlebrow middle england parochial mediocre unimaginative flat footed and slow witted (with two, maximum three exceptions) but cant they just stick to the dubstep and post-dubstep threads and not clog up the other ones with boring comments? there was a girl i was talking to that was saying the greeks shouldnt protest becasu they are 'harming tourism' well yeah they are, so were the protestors in egypt, they did terrible damage to the tourism industry... its vry reveling though isnt it... that sort of comment....

I was about to call you out as a massive cunt and order a frappucino off you, but when you put it like that, I agree. You chief.

HMGovt
08-08-2011, 01:44 PM
If someone is on tweeter could you tell the youth that a double decker should be pushed lengthways across the road before you set in on fire where it becomes an effective barrier between you and mounted police.

And Buckingham Palace on fire next please as a request.

MEET @ PARLIAMENT 2MORROW 2 SHOW DEM WHO RUN STREETS.

Best urban defensive tactic I've come across recently was invented by the rebels in Misrata. They filled a big articulated truck trailer with tonnes of rock and sand, then put it into gear and let it run out across the main road, blocking it. Tanks shells did nothing, it's probaby still there, blocking Misrata high street.

HMGovt
08-08-2011, 02:01 PM
There's been daily coverage of riots, revolts and crackdowns all year, with Western governments urging Arab leaders to listen to the protests. I bet popular uprisings go out of fashion with our leaders here in the UK pretty soon.

Note to Tottenham rioters: you're supposed to set yourself alight, not the high street.

droid
08-08-2011, 02:05 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXU1sGmFanA

Mr. Tea
08-08-2011, 02:28 PM
Various reports of the same eyewitness testimony:

OK...so that's the testimony of an anonymous 20-y-o Tottenhamite who probably has pretty strong anti-police feelings in the first place...

IdleRich
08-08-2011, 02:30 PM
"There was a media blackout while it was going on - NOTHING on BBC, Sky, Guardian shut down from 12.58 - the only way you could find out information was through twitter."
Apparently Sky and BBC pulled all their reporters out of the area cos it was deemed too dangerous for them which might explain the first bit. Don't see how it was more dangerous than Iraq or whatever though.

Anyway, my flatmate and his brother were caught up in it in Brixton last night. Sounds pretty scary, they saw a guy get smacked round the head with a plank and rang for an ambulance - which flat out refused to come.

droid
08-08-2011, 02:37 PM
OK...so that's the testimony of an anonymous 20-y-o Tottenhamite who probably has pretty strong anti-police feelings in the first place...

And who also hasn't to my knowledge been implicated in repeated multiple manslaughter and murder cover ups in the past...

john eden
08-08-2011, 03:01 PM
Apparently Sky and BBC pulled all their reporters out of the area cos it was deemed too dangerous for them which might explain the first bit. Don't see how it was more dangerous than Iraq or whatever though.


I went to bed at about 1:30am on Sunday morning after watching BBC Live, Sky online and twitter. Coverage seemed ok. One of the last things I saw was Sky filming some people bashing up an empty police car in a sidestreet in Tottenham. After this various people started blocking the camera and hassling the crew... cut back to studio with the anchor saying "right, we'll leave you to get on with that"!

Other anecdotes from twitter

- someone getting a pizza delivered to the riot.
- Paul Lewis from the Guardian spotting someone who had looted a lute.

mistersloane
08-08-2011, 03:07 PM
I went to bed at about 1:30am on Sunday morning after watching BBC Live, Sky online and twitter. Coverage seemed ok. One of the last things I saw was Sky filming some people bashing up an empty police car in a sidestreet in Tottenham. After this various people started blocking the camera and hassling the crew... cut back to studio with the anchor saying "right, we'll leave you to get on with that"!

Other anecdotes from twitter

- someone getting a pizza delivered to the riot.
- Paul Lewis from the Guardian spotting someone who had looted a lute.

I didn't see anything on the BBC at all last night?

IdleRich
08-08-2011, 03:25 PM
"After this various people started blocking the camera and hassling the crew... cut back to studio with the anchor saying "right, we'll leave you to get on with that"!"
Ha ha.


"And who also hasn't to my knowledge been implicated in repeated multiple manslaughter and murder cover ups in the past... "
Been a bad few years for the police with the Tomlinson thing, De Menezes, the News International thing etc etc. It's pretty apparent that their main tactic for controlling news is to release a statement absolving themselves of all responsibility, then when that gets refuted by eye-witnesses or video footage or whatever they retreat slightly but only admitting the minimum they have to until that position is itself overturned. I'm hardly a radical police-hater but my automatic position when the police (especially the Met) release a statement about a controversial situation is to assume that they are lying. That's not paranoia or cynicism, it's pure common sense based on recent events.

john eden
08-08-2011, 03:41 PM
I didn't see anything on the BBC at all last night?

apologies - I was talking about Saturday night/Sunday morning.

I was watching Inception last night and getting my head down after a week off work!

Mr. Tea
08-08-2011, 03:50 PM
I'm hardly a radical police-hater but my automatic position when the police (especially the Met) release a statement about a controversial situation is to assume that they are lying. That's not paranoia or cynicism, it's pure common sense based on recent events.

Well yeah, there's that too. Did the shooting happen on a main road? If it did there ought to be CCTV footage of it, you'd have thought. And if it's true about the police bullet in the radio, it'll be interesting to see how that happened (if we ever do find out).

droid
08-08-2011, 03:54 PM
I'm hardly a radical police-hater but my automatic position when the police (especially the Met) release a statement about a controversial situation is to assume that they are lying. That's not paranoia or cynicism, it's pure common sense based on recent events.

Well said.

Good to see the Police surreptitiously promoting anarchism by eroding unwarranted faith in authority figures.

john eden
08-08-2011, 04:07 PM
Well yeah, there's that too. Did the shooting happen on a main road? If it did there ought to be CCTV footage of it, you'd have thought. And if it's true about the police bullet in the radio, it'll be interesting to see how that happened (if we ever do find out).

pretty sure the IPCC have said they are looking at CCTV footage. Mind you, this can of course get lost or the cameras may not have been working...

IdleRich
08-08-2011, 04:20 PM
If previous stories are any guide there will be a slow drip of information changing bit by bit with each new revelation dragged out of the police greatly against their will. Though maybe the fact of their being caught lying so many times will incentivise them to come up with a new tactic as this one evidently isn't working.

droid
08-08-2011, 04:21 PM
Dont you mean:

this can of course "get lost" or the cameras "may not have been working..."

Id say the Met are missing Hayman and the NOTW right now.

john eden
08-08-2011, 04:24 PM
Dont you mean:

this can of course "get lost" or the cameras "may not have been working..."

Id say the Met are missing Hayman and the NOTW right now.

what I am suggesting it that all sorts of things can happen. :slanted:

Sectionfive
08-08-2011, 04:38 PM
Id say the Met are missing Hayman and the NOTW right now.

And vice versa

droid
08-08-2011, 04:48 PM
what I am suggesting it that all sorts of things can happen. :slanted:


OK, Mums the word. ;);)

IdleRich
08-08-2011, 05:03 PM
Loads of helicopters overhead here (Hackney) and sirens in the distance.

mistersloane
08-08-2011, 05:06 PM
kicked off on mare street, armoured cars!

droid
08-08-2011, 05:16 PM
Yowch. Riots are all well and good when you're cheering from the sidelines 6000 miles away, Id hate to be in a flat with 2 kids scared out of their wits as the flames get closer...

Sectionfive
08-08-2011, 05:16 PM
http://storyful.com/stories/1000006223

Mr. Tea
08-08-2011, 05:56 PM
pretty sure the IPCC have said they are looking at CCTV footage. Mind you, this can of course get lost or the cameras may not have been working...

Yeah, I hear ya. Did something like that happen in the de Menezes case? In addition to the fudged photofit?

Tentative Andy
08-08-2011, 06:33 PM
I'm slightly surprised that this has gone as far as it has (perhaps I shouldn't be?). 3 days of rioting spreading across the city seems a pretty big deal.
Maybe stating the obvious here, but one of the saddest things about it for me is that the inevitable aftermath of it will be the authorities coming down even harder on people in terms of stop & search etc.

Sectionfive
08-08-2011, 07:21 PM
I'm slightly surprised that this has gone as far as it has (perhaps I shouldn't be?). 3 days of rioting spreading across the city seems a pretty big deal.


Yeah, it would make me even more suspicious of the Met given how well(?) trained they are to deal with this stuff. Probably hoping the bigger story will take over.


Any sympathy they were angling for will be long gone if the continue to stand by. They would have been spraying plastic bullets Sunday evening if this was Belfast.

vimothy
08-08-2011, 08:59 PM
criminals - who people generally expect to act like criminals.

Most people do not expect the police to act like criminals.

Isn’t that what the police were doing, though? The police were surveilling a gang member as part of Operation Trident, tried to arrest him, in the course of which he was killed.

The assumption by some members of the public has been that, for some reason, the police decided, after they had arrested him, to execute him in cold blood. Why? Probably this is just the sort of thing that police officers enjoy. It’s been a while since we’ve killed any innocent bystanders, and, even though we’re not sure how much of an innocent bystander this guy is, he’ll have to do!

So in fact it seems as though acting like criminals is precisely the sort of thing people are expecting of the police.

Since then we’ve had three days of violence and looting—by criminals, the very people who the police are supposed to protect us from.

Perhaps we should just give over the capital to them; perhaps this is the start of a kind of glorious Arab Spring for the UK. What else can the police do, anyway? Stand around getting hit by rocks waiting for the violence to stop, by the looks of things. Obviously, if the police try to push back too vigorously against the “protesters”, someone might get hurt. And when people get hurt by the police, we end up with cities in flames.

Anyway, viva la revolution! Burn London to the fucking ground! And everywhere else!


Any sympathy they were angling for will be long gone if the continue to stand by.

Er, you can't have it both ways.

vimothy
08-08-2011, 09:02 PM
Birmingham riots updates: http://birminghamriots2011.tumblr.com/

don_quixote
08-08-2011, 09:08 PM
now it's kicking off in birmingham i am shit scared and pissed off.

this could be coming to every city.

vimothy
08-08-2011, 09:10 PM
Leeds too, I've heard.

Tentative Andy
08-08-2011, 09:14 PM
^ I don't think the majority of people are absolutely convinced that the police carried out an execution, they are just doubtful that the official story that has come from the police so far is complete or accurate.
Rich covered this all very well upthread, but def in the case of the Met it's reasonable based on previous experience - all of the misinformation in the Menezes & Tomlinson cases and how hard it had to be pushed to get at the truth there, plus unanswered questions in other cases like that of Smiley Culture - to adopt an initial position of suspicion and wait to be proved otherwise. My personal best guess would be that something went wrong during the arrest of Duggan and they've adopted their usual approach of 'move along nothing to see here' to attempt to cover up mistakes (c.f. the way they've already had to admit the initial claims about the bullet in the dashboard were wrong).
More generally, I don't think it is hypocritical to expect higher standards of behavior from the police force than from the average citizen. As others have said, it goes with their role of protecting the public, but it also goes with the power they hold over the public, being permitted to use force and control over them. If we as a population grant them those powers, it's fair to demand in return that they be beyond reproach.

Edit: this all in response to Vim post at top of page obv.

pattycakes
08-08-2011, 09:28 PM
Maybe stating the obvious here, but one of the saddest things about it for me is that the inevitable aftermath of it will be the authorities coming down even harder on people in terms of stop & search etc.

the conspiracy theorist in me wonders if the flames are actually being fanned partly from behind the scenes.

Sectionfive
08-08-2011, 09:40 PM
Er, you can't have it both ways.

Im talking about high street buildings burning away on live tv for hours with seemingly no response.
Hours of looting taking place.


Doesn't make sense in 2011 London from the outside

mistersloane
08-08-2011, 09:56 PM
first call for curfew gone out

sufi
08-08-2011, 09:58 PM
reckon mobile phones may well go down soon - if not becos of capacity then to stop the 'hoodlums' communicating

all very exciting!

hucks
08-08-2011, 09:59 PM
Bus set on fire on my road in Dalston. Kids ran down my road earlier chased by police from Hackney Downs.

vimothy
08-08-2011, 10:00 PM
Doesn't make sense in 2011 London from the outside

But this is the situation that everyone has tried so hard to engineer! We all thought that the police were too violent when suppressing protests. Well, now they are less violent. None of the officers on the ground want to wind up in jail for injuring a protester. Most of them are demoralised because of cuts to pay. Many of them probably feel that the public are against them. Hence, not just hours, but days of looting. Enjoy!

sufi
08-08-2011, 10:01 PM
Clapham Junction Debenhams wahey!!!

mistersloane
08-08-2011, 10:02 PM
Clapham, Kilburn, Beckton, Croydon, Hackney, it's everywhere.

don_quixote
08-08-2011, 10:05 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YItK1izQIwo&feature=youtu.be

OOPS

baboon2004
08-08-2011, 10:24 PM
Following Clapham on Twitter is hilarious at the moment - people can't BELIEVE it would come there. Incredulity is fascinating. I don't believe they've ever noticed the huge estates before right behind Clapham Jn...

Sectionfive
08-08-2011, 10:27 PM
But this is the situation that everyone has tried so hard to engineer! We all thought that the police were too violent when suppressing protests. Well, now they are less violent. None of the officers on the ground want to wind up in jail for injuring a protester. Most of them are demoralised because of cuts to pay. Many of them probably feel that the public are against them. Hence, not just hours, but days of looting. Enjoy!

True enough.


The scale of this is just mental, really unbelievable.

sufi
08-08-2011, 10:27 PM
kids following lessons of arab spring
assemble small groups off high streets before getting together in such big numbers that the police ... run away!

causes as follows (this to clarify matters for luka and vim)

hottest weekend of the year
economic fuckup of tory 2011
rupert murdoch symbol of unbridled establishment looting and corruption
closure of northern reaches of piccadilly line at the weekend
youth clubs shut ema cancelled
amy winehouse martyr of north london
elitism and misdevelopment in the name of the olympics
ramadan!
name brand envy leading to a uncannily similar window smashing agenda to the anticapitalist movement
that big turd boris
that big turd boris
that big turd gadaffi
a massive social stratum without access to holiday in tuscany or anywhere fancying a big weekend
loss of dignity of authority figures especially the police who are organisationally in impotent manic depression, but also ipcc & the courts
not an uneducated mass of petty crims, but an intelligent group of first-world ghetto youth who understand very well all of the above but to whom noone listens at any other time
& no collective agenda at all, every individual with their own collection of legitimate beef, this being by far most terrifying of all for the powers that be who are quivering in denial
& more which i'm sure will come to mind


luka will also be enchanted to hear that locals have apparently held off looters at east ham & east london mosque

mistersloane
08-08-2011, 10:31 PM
"not an uneducated mass of petty crims, but an intelligent group of first-world ghetto youth who understand very well all of the above but to whom noone listens at any other time"

I love you sufi

LBC is up to date on news as it was yesterday. If you can hack the DJs, and the phone-ins from people in Southend.

sufi
08-08-2011, 10:32 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gqj1N9qeWXI&feature=youtu.be
didnt know they still had wimpy in clapham

boris and cameron on their way back from hols, for fucks sake, losers

IdleRich
08-08-2011, 10:39 PM
Agree that the police are in a difficult position because they can't go wading in - but that's at least partly their fault. If they hadn't been caught lying so many times then confidence in them wouldn't have been so low - and it's not just little things they lied about remember, they murdered an electrician in cold blood and completely failed to investigate a massive conspiracy that reached into the highest echelons of our power structure. It's not just that bleeding heart liberals with their pesky cameras whined about them being a bit tough on their little darlings in the student protests. They're reaping what they've sewed, at least to some extent.

Benny B
08-08-2011, 10:52 PM
I haven't been this morbidly fascinated and awed by news footage since the tsunami.

Reports coming in now of the turkish folk in Dalston beating up and chasing away gangs of hoodies!

Sectionfive
08-08-2011, 11:04 PM
That leaflet (http://yfrog.com/h07mxcyzj) found in Dalston is just a rejig of the one sufi posted (http://www.dissensus.com/showthread.php?11723-Stokes-Croft) a while back.

Tottenham replaces Stokes croft

IdleRich
08-08-2011, 11:16 PM
"Reports coming in now of the turkish folk in Dalston beating up and chasing away gangs of hoodies!"
They come over here, they protect our jobs...

mistersloane
08-08-2011, 11:59 PM
It's the bookies being done that I think is interesting. Kids too young to use them, destroying them.

vimothy
09-08-2011, 12:07 AM
Total chaos everywhere. Crazy images and reports.

sufi
09-08-2011, 12:26 AM
Total chaos everywhere. Crazy images and reports.
yet not a single interview with a looter/rioter on the telly??

vimothy
09-08-2011, 12:27 AM
Plenty of reports of journalists getting attacked and beaten, though.

highhhness
09-08-2011, 12:45 AM
http://www.twitvid.com/4JTZH

muser
09-08-2011, 12:54 AM
yet not a single interview with a looter/rioter on the telly??

theres been a has been a couple of really brief ones with nothing much said. I think most of them are having too much fun to be stopping for interviews and most journalists are too scared to be asking. Seems like the only thing that can stop this is the weather

vimothy
09-08-2011, 12:54 AM
Liverpool too, now, according to this guy: http://twitter.com/#!/benschofield

sufi
09-08-2011, 01:06 AM
astonishing claphamite on sky live now
"this is a really nice area to live in, i just can't understand it"
what's wrong with these people?

muser
09-08-2011, 01:12 AM
people storming cabbot circus in Bristol

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-vFFK8yMosC0/TkB0OUdtJLI/AAAAAAAAAMg/xBXryIQBFqQ/s512/photo%252520%2525281%252529.JPG

mistersloane
09-08-2011, 01:13 AM
astonishing claphamite on sky live now
"this is a really nice area to live in, i just can't understand it"
what's wrong with these people?

I think it's shock, interiorised class stuff coming out. Alot of phone-ins were saying they were surprised, and then 5 minutes later saying they weren't surprised. It's this weird disjunct that's gone on from top down "Everything's under control, I'm staying in Tuscany" "No it's not! I have to come back!"

David Cameron doesn't care about poor people.

sufi
09-08-2011, 01:23 AM
... & Boris Johnson doesnt care about poor people

it was really disgusting to see how hard the skyguy was trying not to understand, screwing up his face in exertion
(he should be arrested for violating curfew anyway - police just announced on bbc if youre out on he streets now "you're part of the problem")

mistersloane
09-08-2011, 01:30 AM
... & Boris Johnson doesnt care about poor people

it was really disgusting to see how hard the skyguy was trying not to understand, screwing up his face in exertion
(he should be arrested for violating curfew anyway - police just announced on bbc if youre out on he streets now "you're part of the problem")

ah good touch on the boris one

yeah it's "disgusting mindless thuggery"

just pure objectification. I liked the tweeter that sed that yr endz was moist if it dnt have a fire tho.

mistersloane
09-08-2011, 01:37 AM
... & Boris Johnson doesnt care about poor people

it was really disgusting to see how hard the skyguy was trying not to understand, screwing up his face in exertion
(he should be arrested for violating curfew anyway - police just announced on bbc if youre out on he streets now "you're part of the problem")

http://twitter.com/#!/piercepenniless/status/100724016972693504

;`0

john eden
09-08-2011, 09:17 AM
Isn’t that what the police were doing, though? The police were surveilling a gang member as part of Operation Trident, tried to arrest him, in the course of which he was killed.

I would personally prefer it if the police could arrest people without killing them, as I don't believe in capital punishment (especially without a trial).

Obviously there are some situations where this is not possible. There are debates ongoing about whether the deaths of Mark Duggan, David Emmanuel and others could have been avoided. The general consensus seems to be that the deaths of Charles Demeneses, Ian Tomlinson and Harry Stanley (to name but three) could have been avoided.

I have read and written a great deal about deaths in custody this year and my conclusion is that it's vitally important that the police are subject to the utmost scrutiny in these situations as they seem institutionally incapable of honesty when someone dies in their custody.

I don't understand the other points you are making, or how they relate to anything I have said.

crackerjack
09-08-2011, 09:44 AM
PIAS distribution stock was stored here. All gone.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/08/09/us-sony-fire-uk-idUSTRE7780P020110809

FairiesWearBoots
09-08-2011, 09:52 AM
kids following lessons of arab spring
assemble small groups off high streets before getting together in such big numbers that the police ... run away!

causes as follows (this to clarify matters for luka and vim)

hottest weekend of the year
economic fuckup of tory 2011
rupert murdoch symbol of unbridled establishment looting and corruption
closure of northern reaches of piccadilly line at the weekend
youth clubs shut ema cancelled
amy winehouse martyr of north london
elitism and misdevelopment in the name of the olympics
ramadan!
name brand envy leading to a uncannily similar window smashing agenda to the anticapitalist movement
that big turd boris
that big turd boris
that big turd gadaffi
a massive social stratum without access to holiday in tuscany or anywhere fancying a big weekend
loss of dignity of authority figures especially the police who are organisationally in impotent manic depression, but also ipcc & the courts
not an uneducated mass of petty crims, but an intelligent group of first-world ghetto youth who understand very well all of the above but to whom noone listens at any other time
& no collective agenda at all, every individual with their own collection of legitimate beef, this being by far most terrifying of all for the powers that be who are quivering in denial
& more which i'm sure will come to mind


luka will also be enchanted to hear that locals have apparently held off looters at east ham & east london mosque

do you really believe that these are the main reasons? wow

luka
09-08-2011, 10:11 AM
fairy, you cant possibly be that literal minded.

droid
09-08-2011, 10:19 AM
...My girlfriend and I lived above the carpet shop on Tottenham High Road you can see on the news.
Despite what you may have read/seen - the emergency service response was non-existent, the mob was pushed up the High Road, ransacked the building at 2am, and set it on fire whilst we were all shouting at them from the windows and balconies to leave us alone.
No ambulance, no police - who just stood 40 yards up the road watching; no fire brigade... just 26 families sacrificed to the mob...

...They willingly set fire our place despite our best attempts to stop them and the police just watched. I had to drive to A&E in the next borough 5 hours after we escaped the building and were allowed to leave the area, and we had dangerously high levels of smoke inhalation and CO poisoning. The building was already gone before the fire brigade got there 3 hours later.
If you saw the news today, it was my neighbours bollocking Nick Clegg.
We are both ok, we checked out of hospital yesterday morning and are refugees at my parents place up the road, but we are just slowly through the motions of rebuilding our lives from scratch. We only had time to grab our 2 cats and my car keys, and on the way down I rescued my neighbours girlfriend.

The tunes I've lost... including my artist copy of alphacut 010, and all my music production since I was 15
the missus has lost all her artwork
my dissertation was due in 4 weeks for my Civil Engineering MSc, but fuck it - that's just the material things, it was very touch and go. The worst part of it is the fact that it seems the emergency services just abandoned us to all this. The police front line all came from Ealing, they hadn't a fucking clue what they were up against....

http://subvertcentral.com/forum/showthread.php?t=56771&page=1

FairiesWearBoots
09-08-2011, 10:27 AM
sorry my sarcasm meter has failed this morning,

john eden
09-08-2011, 10:33 AM
sorry my sarcasm meter has failed this morning,

a lot of people didn't get much sleep last night, me included.

I'm alright though, of course. :D

Mr. Tea
09-08-2011, 10:39 AM
http://subvertcentral.com/forum/showthread.php?t=56771&page=1

Jesus Christ...999 is a joke. What the fuck are the police playing at? Baton charges at tuition-fee protesters but letting mobs burn people in their homes? Fucksake.

IdleRich
09-08-2011, 11:05 AM
I wonder what the impact will be on future protests. Seems to me that if you organise a legitimate protest and tell the police where you're gonna be they come and kettle you and stop the protest happening. If you don't do it by the book and just turn up wherever you fancy, then leg it down a back alley when the police are there in large enough numbers there seems to be little they can do about it. I guess that many peaceful protesters might be watching and learning from this.

droid
09-08-2011, 11:45 AM
Iran calling for 'restraint':

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/193030.html

Mr. Tea
09-08-2011, 12:02 PM
Iran calling for 'restraint':

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/193030.html

Ha, just posted similar in '...makes me chuckle': http://english.farsnews.com/newstext.php?nn=9005180674

I hope George Galloway makes an appearance to decry the brutality, oppression, injustice &c. &c.

gumdrops
09-08-2011, 12:03 PM
no matter how much i think the causes are legit, and need to be looked into, and im dismayed that tv news barely seems interested in examining this in depth, i am seriously thinking the police need to go hardcore on these little fuckers.


It's the bookies being done that I think is interesting. Kids too young to use them, destroying them.

yes cos all their other targets make SO MUCH SENSE.

fuck these little cunts. too easy to group all youth across london into the same category as these complete arseholes so hopefully people dont do that.

IdleRich
09-08-2011, 12:27 PM
Bookies got money in them I guess. Makes more sense than burning the the Childrens Society building in Bethnal Green. In fact setting buildings on fire in general is basically saying "I don't care if people die" and moves way beyond the level at which one can sympathise.

gumdrops
09-08-2011, 12:36 PM
theyre just igniting businesses with no care whether theres a home on top of it or not. ultimately i think theyre burning businesses rather than homes. at least thats what id like to think. but it doesnt make it any better really. esp when theyre - from what ive read/heard - assaulting firemen who try to put the fires out.

Mr. Tea
09-08-2011, 12:43 PM
How much worse will it have to get for martial law to be declared, do you think?

vimothy
09-08-2011, 12:46 PM
Surely only a matter of time before someone is killed.

This (http://autonomousmind.wordpress.com/2011/08/08/the-mark-duggan-shooting-the-police-and-the-media/) seems like a balanced take and matches what I've heard. Can anyone point to the police statement that the blogger says doesn't exist?


...There is no evidence for these media assertions [that reported that Duggan fired on officers first]. The Metropolitan Police have not issued any press release or provided interviews where such assertions were shared. The IPCC has issued press releases but has said nothing about Duggan firing a weapon. But because the media stated these ‘facts’ people have accepted them as the truth and are now wrongly accusing the Met of lying and spreading the disinformation for nefarious purposes:

[Cue Jody McIntyre: "police lie, etc"]

The impact of this irresponsible media behaviour, in conjunction with the unconfirmed reports about the ballistic test results, is causing further reputational damage to the Metropolitan Police. There is plenty to criticise and condemn the Met for, but it is wrong and unjust to accuse them of something they are not guilty of. Already we have seen this media inaccuracy being exploited by serial rioters like Jody McIntyre to justify their own behaviour and egg on others to riot, commit arson and engage in looting in various parts of London.

The Press Complaints Commission is a busted flush. But before it withers away and is replaced by creeping government regulation and oversight, it could make itself relevant for a short time and take on this appalling lack of journalistic rigour, which could be having far reaching consequences. The media must be held to account and cannot be allowed to publish such unsubstantiated claims as fact and in so doing misleading the public.

And just in case anyone thinks this blog is being unfair to the media, there is at least one example of a media outlet that reported the story and just about kept itself under control by not asserting Duggan fired any shots… take a bow Sky News.

vimothy
09-08-2011, 12:47 PM
Spoke to soon, apparently--Sky is now reporting that a man who was shot in his car in Croydon last night has died in hospital.

luka
09-08-2011, 12:53 PM
i doubt things will gete worse.. steams been blown off. people will start thinking about consequences.
maybe things outside london will heat up but 10,000 more police on the streets or whatever it is. i think its peaked. we'll see....

Mr. Tea
09-08-2011, 12:55 PM
Spoke to soon, apparently--Sky is now reporting that a man who was shot in his car in Croydon last night has died in hospital.

Well I guess anyone with a gang-related beef is going to take an opportunity like this, when everyone's running around like headless chickens and the cops are nowhere to be seen, to settle scores - if that's what's happened here, which would hardly surprise me for Croydon.

Edit: Op Trident is investigating, quelle surprise.

baboon2004
09-08-2011, 12:59 PM
Bookies got money in them I guess. Makes more sense than burning the the Childrens Society building in Bethnal Green. In fact setting buildings on fire in general is basically saying "I don't care if people die" and moves way beyond the level at which one can sympathise.

Obviously I agree with that sentiment, but where does such nihiliism come from? Seems pretty obvious - from the impression that society gives that it doesn't give a fuck about them as human beings, which is true. Political violence begets physical violence from those it is targeted against.

All of which is obv not to say that threat to life and damage to small businesses is not terrible, and the fact that the violence has been so indiscriminate is horrible. But as soon as people start othering the people who are doing this as amoral/completely non-understandable/stop granting them the right to feel pretty fucked off, you come closer to treating groups of people as sub-human, which is the problem in the first place. It's like a self-fulfilling prophecy, and then complaining when it comes true.

Edit: I'm writing a Masters dissertation about the war in the DRC right now, and it's interesting how many right-wing, rhetorical tropes to frame Africa as 'savage', replete with 'senseless violence' etc, are being virtually repeated by the media in the way it is reporting what happens here. Discourse very, VERY similar.

john eden
09-08-2011, 01:01 PM
Surely only a matter of time before someone is killed.

This (http://autonomousmind.wordpress.com/2011/08/08/the-mark-duggan-shooting-the-police-and-the-media/) seems like a balanced take and matches what I've heard. Can anyone point to the police statement that the blogger says doesn't exist?

The Met don't put up all their press releases for public consumption, such is their commitment to transparency.

It is quite clear from the literature about the death of Colin Roach (in Stoke Newington Police station in 1983) and the death of Smiley Culture earlier this year that the Met have a long history of briefing the press off the record about deaths in custody.

In the case of Ian Tomlinson the media reported all sorts of lies about the officer concerned suffering under a hail of bottles. In the case of Demenzes they reported him leaping over the tube barriers.

I doubt these were official police statements, but they were part of the media management of the public's perception of the deaths. Hard to say how much the police (or individual officers) were involved with this, but you seem to be assuming that the media is entirely neutral which clearly isn't the case. As we've seen from the NOTW scandal there are some murky connections there with ex-coppers working for the press and payments being dished out left right and centre - and of course what looks like a failure to investigate phone hacking properly.

Sectionfive
09-08-2011, 01:01 PM
http://audioboo.fm/boos/434411-leana-hosea-speaks-to-croydon-looters-on-bbcworldservice

gumdrops
09-08-2011, 01:03 PM
http://kenanmalik.wordpress.com/2011/08/09/five-quick-points-about-the-riots/

I am writing a longer and more reflective piece, but in the meantime here are five quick points about the riots in London and elsewhere:

1
This is not a rerun of the inner city riots that shook Britain in the late seventies and the eighties. Those riots were a direct challenge to oppressive policing and to mass unemployment. They threatened the social fabric of Britain’s inner cities and forced the government to rethink its mechanisms of social control. Today’s riots may have made the Metropolitan police look inept, revealed politicians as out of touch and brought mayhem to some parts of London, Liverpool and Birmingham. But there is little sense that they pose a challenge to social order, in the way that the 80s riots did, or that they are in any sense ‘insurrectionary’, as Darcus Howe described those revolts. Rather today’s riots amounted to the trashing of some of the poorest areas in the city. On Friday night, when the riots began in Tottenham, there was some political content to the violence, an inchoate response to the shooting of Mark Duggan (whose death looks increasingly like a police killing rather than the outcome of an exchange of fire). By Saturday the riots had descended largely into arson and looting with little sense of political motive or cause.

2
The riots are not about race. Many on the left have seen them as a response to racist policing. Many on the right have been pouring out racist bile against ‘immigrants’. In fact race has played little role in the violence. This is not to deny that young black men continue to be the primary target of police stop and search (an issue that has been shamefully ignored in recent years). Nor is it to deny that there is a legacy of bitterness about, and resentment of, police tactics in many inner city communities. But the riots were not in any way defined by racial divisions, antagonisms or resentments.

3
The polarisation between the claim that ‘the riots are a response to unemployment and wasted lives’ and the insistence ‘the violence constitutes mere criminality’ makes little sense. There is clearly more to the riots than simple random hooliganism. But that does not mean that the riots, as many have claimed, are protests against disenfranchisement, social exclusion and wasted lives. In fact, it’s precisely because of disenfranchisement, social exclusion and wasted lives that these are not ‘protests’ in any meaningful sense, but a mixture of incoherent rage, gang thuggery and teenage mayhem. Disengaged not just from the political process (largely because politicians, especially those on the left, have disengaged from them), there is a generation (in fact more than a generation) with no focus for their anger and resentment, no sense that they can change society and no reason to feel responsible for the consequences of their actions. That is very different from suggesting that the riots were caused by, a response to, or a protest against, unemployment, austerity and the cuts.

4
We should ignore anyone who talks about what ‘the community’ wants or needs. So called ‘community leaders’ are very much part of the problem.

5
Mindless though the rioters may be, those who call for the army to be unleashed, curfews to be imposed, or ‘robust policing’ to be used, are more mindless still, and more dangerous.

Mr. Tea
09-08-2011, 01:05 PM
i doubt things will gete worse.. steams been blown off. people will start thinking about consequences.
maybe things outside london will heat up but 10,000 more police on the streets or whatever it is. i think its peaked. we'll see....

If it starts to get boring here, you could always kick things off in Sydney. I, for one, would salute you!

baboon2004
09-08-2011, 01:05 PM
astonishing claphamite on sky live now
"this is a really nice area to live in, i just can't understand it"
what's wrong with these people?

they have special glasses on that don't allow them to see poverty. and the relentless 'most of the youths participating are from other areas' thing is getting stupid now.

baboon2004
09-08-2011, 01:10 PM
http://kenanmalik.wordpress.com/2011/08/09/five-quick-points-about-the-riots/

I am writing a longer and more reflective piece, but in the meantime here are five quick points about the riots in London and elsewhere:

1
This is not a rerun of the inner city riots that shook Britain in the late seventies and the eighties. Those riots were a direct challenge to oppressive policing and to mass unemployment. They threatened the social fabric of Britain’s inner cities and forced the government to rethink its mechanisms of social control. Today’s riots may have made the Metropolitan police look inept, revealed politicians as out of touch and brought mayhem to some parts of London, Liverpool and Birmingham. But there is little sense that they pose a challenge to social order, in the way that the 80s riots did, or that they are in any sense ‘insurrectionary’, as Darcus Howe described those revolts. Rather today’s riots amounted to the trashing of some of the poorest areas in the city. On Friday night, when the riots began in Tottenham, there was some political content to the violence, an inchoate response to the shooting of Mark Duggan (whose death looks increasingly like a police killing rather than the outcome of an exchange of fire). By Saturday the riots had descended largely into arson and looting with little sense of political motive or cause.


Look up the Rodney King riots, and compare. George Bush and Dan Quayle were saying exactly that afterwards.

Surely the 80s riots saw trashing of poor areas too?? And I'll bet when they were happening, lots of people were syaing the same thing too - 'no political motive', 'senseless' etc. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

luka
09-08-2011, 01:10 PM
i set a bin on fire but it didnt prove to be the catalyst i was hoping it would be.

luka
09-08-2011, 01:13 PM
baboon is right there. i was saying much the same thing to one of my customers this morning.

luka
09-08-2011, 01:17 PM
people can accept a riot as legitimate anywhere but in their own backyard. then rioters are suddenly 'scum' and 'animals'
lots of would be radicals got exposed as closet reactionaries over the past few days.

gumdrops
09-08-2011, 01:22 PM
But there is little sense that they pose a challenge to social order

well here they are doing exactly that
posing a challenge to the police
to show they dont care about them and will do as they please
in the face of the riot squads

this is a riot about the police
ppl keep forgetting

doesnt mean their actions arent that of scum however
no matter how justified the cause is

luka
09-08-2011, 01:27 PM
i disapprove of hurting people, generally speaking. or putting their lives in danger.
looting i think we can all agree looks like an enormous amount of fun.

pattycakes
09-08-2011, 01:55 PM
realize this has been said already but it just sunk in - how the police dealt with this compared to the student riots and g20.

mistersloane
09-08-2011, 02:21 PM
lots of would be radicals got exposed as closet reactionaries over the past few days.

Yeah I've crossed a few people off in recent days.

What babs is saying is right : "feral rats" (quote, shop owner, Liz Pilgrim, BBC website).

Feral rats. Affirmative Shopping.

baboon2004
09-08-2011, 02:43 PM
Yeah I've crossed a few people off in recent days.

What babs is saying is right : "feral rats" (quote, shop owner, Liz Pilgrim, BBC website).

Feral rats. Affirmative Shopping.

I think it's quite useful, to realise where people really stand on things, as opposed to in theory. All I personally ask is for people to apply the same tools of thought/discourse to this as they would to events anywhere else in the world.

If I hear the phrase 'opportunisitc looting' one more time I think I will do some opportunistic looting. People taking their thought patterns direct from Sky news. Scary.

hucks
09-08-2011, 02:48 PM
If I hear the phrase 'opportunisitc looting' one more time I think I will do some opportunistic looting. People taking their thought patterns direct from Sky news. Scary.

Fuck it, I'll bite. What's not opportunistic about heading to JDs and walking off with free trainers once someone else has broken the window? Opportunistic doesn't seem to be the worst thing you could call it.

Anyhow, gumdrops posted a thing earlier that I found really interesting esp this bit

3
The polarisation between the claim that ‘the riots are a response to unemployment and wasted lives’ and the insistence ‘the violence constitutes mere criminality’ makes little sense. There is clearly more to the riots than simple random hooliganism. But that does not mean that the riots, as many have claimed, are protests against disenfranchisement, social exclusion and wasted lives. In fact, it’s precisely because of disenfranchisement, social exclusion and wasted lives that these are not ‘protests’ in any meaningful sense, but a mixture of incoherent rage, gang thuggery and teenage mayhem. Disengaged not just from the political process (largely because politicians, especially those on the left, have disengaged from them), there is a generation (in fact more than a generation) with no focus for their anger and resentment, no sense that they can change society and no reason to feel responsible for the consequences of their actions. That is very different from suggesting that the riots were caused by, a response to, or a protest against, unemployment, austerity and the cuts.

Mr. Tea
09-08-2011, 03:04 PM
Obviously I agree with that sentiment, but where does such nihiliism come from? Seems pretty obvious - from the impression that society gives that it doesn't give a fuck about them as human beings, which is true. Political violence begets physical violence from those it is targeted against.

All of which is obv not to say that threat to life and damage to small businesses is not terrible, and the fact that the violence has been so indiscriminate is horrible. But as soon as people start othering the people who are doing this as amoral/completely non-understandable/stop granting them the right to feel pretty fucked off, you come closer to treating groups of people as sub-human, which is the problem in the first place. It's like a self-fulfilling prophecy, and then complaining when it comes true.

Edit: I'm writing a Masters dissertation about the war in the DRC right now, and it's interesting how many right-wing, rhetorical tropes to frame Africa as 'savage', replete with 'senseless violence' etc, are being virtually repeated by the media in the way it is reporting what happens here. Discourse very, VERY similar.

A lot of good points there, but however you look at it, setting fire to small shops and businesses with families living above them is pretty savage. I don't think there's much to be gained from mincing words. There might be underlying reasons why people are acting like sociopaths, but that doesn't mean they're not acting like sociopaths.

I mean, yeah, maybe it isn't helpful that words like 'senseless' and 'mindless' are always used, but in what way isn't it senseless to attack elements of your own community and neighbourhood? By all means firebomb the copshop and smash up McDonald's if you really have to, but Ali's Fruit & Veg has fuck all to do with the cuts, Mark Duggan or anything else a disaffected young Londoner might be justifiably pissed off about. Of course we should try to understand, in the literal sense, why this kind of socially self-directed violence is happening, but we should be wary of 'understanding' it in the empathetic sense to the point of starting to excuse it.

Another aspect to this is a generation that's grown up with no concept of authority, because they've never encountered any authority that's been worth two shits. A general breakdown of discipline in a lot of state schools, a huge number of inner-city kids, especially black kids, growing up with no father or any worthwhile father figure at all (see the gangs-as-substitute-families argument, passim) and the law seen as a joke ('ASBO pride') while, paradoxically, the police are seen as brutal, capricious thugs. And not without reason, of course.

baboon2004
09-08-2011, 03:11 PM
Fuck it, I'll bite. What's not opportunistic about heading to JDs and walking off with free trainers once someone else has broken the window? Opportunistic doesn't seem to be the worst thing you could call it.

Anyhow, gumdrops posted a thing earlier that I found really interesting esp this bit

3
The polarisation between the claim that ‘the riots are a response to unemployment and wasted lives’ and the insistence ‘the violence constitutes mere criminality’ makes little sense. There is clearly more to the riots than simple random hooliganism. But that does not mean that the riots, as many have claimed, are protests against disenfranchisement, social exclusion and wasted lives. In fact, it’s precisely because of disenfranchisement, social exclusion and wasted lives that these are not ‘protests’ in any meaningful sense, but a mixture of incoherent rage, gang thuggery and teenage mayhem. Disengaged not just from the political process (largely because politicians, especially those on the left, have disengaged from them), there is a generation (in fact more than a generation) with no focus for their anger and resentment, no sense that they can change society and no reason to feel responsible for the consequences of their actions. That is very different from suggesting that the riots were caused by, a response to, or a protest against, unemployment, austerity and the cuts.

Not a question of biting, really. What bbothers me is the way people get so moralistic about commercial property. Why does it bother you if someone gets free trainers? Are you jealous, cos I'll bet your life is better than that kid's has ever been, and better than he has any reasonable hope of it being in the future? People dont' tend to steal if they can afford to buy stuff.

As to gumdrops' point, I agree with the general sentiment, but not with the separation of the 'political' from 'social anger'. Such a separation only exists in the minds of people theorising post-event, largely speaking. And of course if you've been subjugated by forces you barely understand (how many kids understand the machinations of the economy??), then there will an elment of incoherence. Do you want 15 year olds to be brandishing a bloody manifesto? Absurd. All they know is that other people have a better lot than they do for no discernible reason other than what family/area/class they were born into. And that's political in any meaningful sense.

Mr. Tea
09-08-2011, 03:33 PM
People dont' tend to steal if they can afford to buy stuff.


In the petrol station across the road from my house there is a list of cars - make, colour, reg plate - with rewards offered for info about them because they've driven off without paying. The cars are two Mercs, two Beemers and a Jag. At least one of them has a personalised reg plate.

Not disagreeing with you entirely - just saying that some people love nicking stuff for the sake of it.

hucks
09-08-2011, 03:45 PM
Not a question of biting, really. What bothers me is the way people get so moralistic about commercial property. Why does it bother you if someone gets free trainers?

It doesn't really, and I thought it was pretty OK that these big chain stores got ripped off. But it turns out it was bothering me that small businesses with no insurance were being trashed too, and I realised that I'd made a distinction in my mind as to good and bad looting that the looters don't share.

baboon2004
09-08-2011, 03:52 PM
In the petrol station across the road from my house there is a list of cars - make, colour, reg plate - with rewards offered for info about them because they've driven off without paying. The cars are two Mercs, two Beemers and a Jag. At least one of them has a personalised reg plate.

Not disagreeing with you entirely - just saying that some people love nicking stuff for the sake of it.

Yep, which of us has never nicked anything in our lives? But, in the main, most theft is related to need.

baboon2004
09-08-2011, 03:55 PM
It doesn't really, and I thought it was pretty OK that these big chain stores got ripped off. But it turns out it was bothering me that small businesses with no insurance were being trashed too, and I realised that I'd made a distinction in my mind as to good and bad looting that the looters don't share.

i completely agree! what irks me is that the media makes no such distinction, and talks about looting HMV in the same sentence as some poor guy whose family business has gone up.

Most people doing this are in their teens and from pretty bad economic backgrounds. Maybe in their minds all these people have more than they do. I don't know - maybe someone should ask them - I know my moral compass wasnt' fully developed when I was that age.

sufi
09-08-2011, 04:07 PM
http://www.lasthours.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/mindless-riots-colour-edd-baldry-72dpi.jpgevery bottle has a message

Mr. Tea
09-08-2011, 04:08 PM
Yep, which of us has never nicked anything in our lives? But, in the main, most theft is related to need.

Come on, who "needs" a brand new pair of Nikes, or an iPhone, or a massive flatscreen TV? Let's not pretend we're talking about the starving masses ransacking bakeries.

Edit: and I can't recall ever stealing anything of value. This probably makes me an appalling dull-witted square, but there you go.

baboon2004
09-08-2011, 04:10 PM
Best cartoon i've seen in ages

baboon2004
09-08-2011, 04:18 PM
Come on, who "needs" a brand new pair of Nikes, or an iPhone, or a massive flatscreen TV? Let's not pretend we're talking about the starving masses ransacking bakeries.

what i am saying is, you and i can probably/pretty certainly afford most of these things. there are some people who can't, not through any fault of their own but because they simply grew up among less privilege, and who are looked down upon as 'chavs'/insert own hideous sobriquet by the middle classes/wannabe middle classes, for whom owning these things is indeed a signifier of self-worth, in the main. have you been in their situation? i haven't, and so i'm not going to pretend i know how it feels/what i would do if i were.

missing that social psychology angle (if that's the right term) misses the point, in my view. in capitalism, what you own = what society deems you are worth.

this is what happens if a radically unfair society is perpetuated for long enough, and lo and behold, those who 'have' get on their high horses as though they deserve the privilege they were born into.

baboon2004
09-08-2011, 04:22 PM
Edit: and I can't recall ever stealing anything of value. This probably makes me an appalling dull-witted square, but there you go.

what 'value' do those nikes have, except to nike stockholders gorging on the extortionate profit margins (on the given assumption that those who make them receive precious little)? genuine question, i think it's a moot point. certainly not much profit going into the pockets of those who work at JD Sports, or wherever. If there were, I'd feel differently, as witht he small businesses that have been attacked, which is an inarguably bad thing. Wish they'd stuck to looting chains, but hey, I'm not an angry 16-year old (well, most of the time :) ).

john eden
09-08-2011, 04:26 PM
what 'value' do those nikes have, except to nike stockholders gorging on the extortionate profit margins (on the given assumption that those who make them receive precious little)? genuine question, i think it's a moot point.

their value to users relates more to social capital (status, branding) than their actual monetary value (raw materials + labour + profit).

Mr. Tea
09-08-2011, 04:33 PM
what i am saying is, you and i can probably/pretty certainly afford most of these things...

I'm unemployed at the moment and have a phone that's about 7 years old and barely works. I've never had any of those things I listed because I'm not particularly interested in them. Yes, I know that's not your main point. But.

I'm middle class and I don't consider owning things a "signifier of self-worth" - if anything this seems to be far more of a 'chavish' aspiration ('bling'/trainers/labels/whatever). Most people I know aren't obsessed with ownership-status.

I don't really know where I'm going with this because to a large extent I agree with you: yes, capitalism (or more accurately, consumerism) makes people want things they don't need. Yes, this can be especially problematic for people born into poverty with little chance to escape it other than perhaps through crime. Yes, probably everything I've said here can be disregarded because I didn't grow up on a shitty council estate in Edmonton...

baboon2004
09-08-2011, 04:38 PM
sorry tea, didn't see this reply. Agreed that small businesses and homes being torched is horrible, but so is gorging on class privilege for all one's life. As for acting like sociopaths, stratified capitalist society IS sociopathic, especiaally with so little social movement as in the UK. So, yeah, huge point to be debated, not simple at all.

Difficult to answer that question. But being blamed for being mad by a society set up to drive you mad, is pretty rich (have sen this happen over and over again with incidents of racism; so here, shift to classism). yes, it isn't entirely logical or fair, the way they've acted, certainly not, but neither is what is essentially an apartheid between rich and poor that exists every day (particularly in London perhaps, not sure?). I don't think it's for the middle classes to 'excuse' anything, to be honest, think that way of thinking is part of the problem. As for the shopkeepers and civilians affected who are themselves poor and been affected, that's shit and no two ways about it. But responsibility lies on everyone who benefits every single day of their lives from keeping the rich/poor division firmly secured, not just on those kids.

Re authority - yes and no. Why should you give a shit when society is telling you you have been earmarked to fail from birth? I mean, really, why should you? Why should middle class kids getting Es in their A-level go to university, while poor kids can't now afford to TAKE A-levels. Why should you be part of the 'good' poor, smilingly accepting their lot?

This is complex, but also fucking simple - this is class anger (and class of course is riven by race as in any European country) from those who feel they have nothing to lose.



A lot of good points there, but however you look at it, setting fire to small shops and businesses with families living above them is pretty savage. I don't think there's much to be gained from mincing words. There might be underlying reasons why people are acting like sociopaths, but that doesn't mean they're not acting like sociopaths.

I mean, yeah, maybe it isn't helpful that words like 'senseless' and 'mindless' are always used, but in what way isn't it senseless to attack elements of your own community and neighbourhood? By all means firebomb the copshop and smash up McDonald's if you really have to, but Ali's Fruit & Veg has fuck all to do with the cuts, Mark Duggan or anything else a disaffected young Londoner might be justifiably pissed off about. Of course we should try to understand, in the literal sense, why this kind of socially self-directed violence is happening, but we should be wary of 'understanding' it in the empathetic sense to the point of starting to excuse it.

Another aspect to this is a generation that's grown up with no concept of authority, because they've never encountered any authority that's been worth two shits. A general breakdown of discipline in a lot of state schools, a huge number of inner-city kids, especially black kids, growing up with no father or any worthwhile father figure at all (see the gangs-as-substitute-families argument, passim) and the law seen as a joke ('ASBO pride') while, paradoxically, the police are seen as brutal, capricious thugs. And not without reason, of course.

lanugo
09-08-2011, 04:38 PM
But, in the main, most theft is related to need.

This conjecture strikes me as completely unfounded. As Mr.Tea's little anecdote suggests even, or especially, those who are well-off and materially secure nevertheless steal out of sheer greed or criminal energy. Our current economic system, which really amounts to an institutionalised system of large-scale theft, encourages such ruthless and anti-social behaviour. I don't see any difference between a MIT-educated Goldman & Sachs banker enriching himself at the expense of others and any one of the London looters indiscriminately stealing from the big chain stores and small private businesses. If anything the latter causes lesser damage but I don't have sympathy for either. I'm also not interested in uncovering the alleged underlying socioeconomic causes for these riots. Rather, from a kind of Shakespearean view, I grasp these events as merely one of many manifestations of the general disorder and corruption of our times.

baboon2004
09-08-2011, 04:38 PM
their value to users relates more to social capital (status, branding) than their actual monetary value (raw materials + labour + profit).

yep, more eloquently saying what I was trying to get at!

FairiesWearBoots
09-08-2011, 04:39 PM
that's what I can see - manz jus want new creps innit?

fuck paying for it if you can get it for free free right?

from what I can see that is the attitude/reasoning of 99% of the 'trouble makers'

the arson is the worst bit - its the lives at risk that troubles me

I dont care if peeps want new '95's

Mr. Tea
09-08-2011, 04:43 PM
what 'value' do those nikes have, except to nike stockholders gorging on the extortionate profit margins (on the given assumption that those who make them receive precious little)? genuine question, i think it's a moot point. certainly not much profit going into the pockets of those who work at JD Sports, or wherever. If there were, I'd feel differently, as witht he small businesses that have been attacked, which is an inarguably bad thing. Wish they'd stuck to looting chains, but hey, I'm not an angry 16-year old (well, most of the time :) ).

Nike trainers, like anything, have value to people who value them. If you own a pair and they're your pride and joy, then they have value to you.

As I'm sure I've mentioned elsewhere in this thread, I couldn't really give a toss about people damaging or looting huge chain stores that are insured up to the eyeballs and might see a drop in quarterly profits of a fraction of a %. In the case of a company like Nike which has notoriously unethical business practices, yeah great, fuck 'em. But as you say, when it's little local mom-and-pop stores getting torched, even the most hardened anti-capitalist would surely find it hard to make any excuse for that. And that's without even talking about people's homes being destroyed and their lives put at risk.

baboon2004
09-08-2011, 04:48 PM
Nike trainers, like anything, have value to people who value them. If you own a pair and they're your pride and joy, then they have value to you.

As I'm sure I've mentioned elsewhere in this thread, I couldn't really give a toss about people damaging or looting huge chain stores that are insured up to the eyeballs and might see a drop in quarterly profits of a fraction of a %. In the case of a company like Nike which has notoriously unethical business practices, yeah great, fuck 'em. But as you say, when it's little local mom-and-pop stores getting torched, even the most hardened anti-capitalist would surely find it hard to make any excuse for that. And that's without even talking about people's homes being destroyed and their lives put at risk.

Agreed - but then the only question to ask is this - what kind of fucking society do we live in that pushes people into a situation where they go 'fuck it, dont' have anything to lose, might as well'?

Else you reduce people's motivations to that of animals ('scum', 'looters', whatever), and Sky/BBC were coming damn close to some horrible racialised discourse last night in that vein. And the repeated use of 'they' in reference to all the 'looters'/'rioters'/youths whatever, made it almost sound like a live 28 Days Later. "They're coming! They're not human!"

baboon2004
09-08-2011, 04:53 PM
Should've qualified that statement, true. I meant that you don't see middle class people looting JD Sports, stealing in such an immediate way, because their theft is more subtle, but equally theft. So, yep, what you say is true


This conjecture strikes me as completely unfounded. As Mr.Tea's little anecdote suggests even, or especially, those who are well-off and materially secure nevertheless steal out of sheer greed or criminal energy. Our current economic system, which really amounts to an institutionalised system of large-scale theft, encourages such ruthless and anti-social behaviour. I don't see any difference between a MIT-educated Goldman & Sachs banker enriching himself at the expense of others and any one of the London looters indiscriminately stealing from the big chain stores and small private businesses. If anything the latter causes lesser damage but I don't have sympathy for either. I'm also not interested in uncovering the alleged underlying socioeconomic causes for these riots. Rather, from a kind of Shakespearean view, I grasp these events as merely one of many manifestations of the general disorder and corruption of our times.

Ulala
09-08-2011, 04:54 PM
I was reading this http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/images/0747552509/ref=dp_image_0?ie=UTF8&n=266239&s=books last week (recommended, btw) and being a book about hip hop and LA, the LA riots are discussed. I was particularly drawn to this passage:



"In fact, though Rodney King's name was the rallying cry that inspired the hurling of the first bricks and stones, the riot had been waiting to happen for some time. Like the Watts uprising 27 years before, it was just waiting for the spark.

For some, it was just a sense of release. Kokane told me how much fun it was to be there, tearing up the place. 'Oh shoot,' he laughed, like it was the funniest time of his life. 'I was doing a gang of looting. All of it got lost, but I got a gang of shit.'

'I loved everything that was going on,' Ice Cube said. 'It was bad that some people got hurt, but it was definitely a statement, and it seems like the only thing America hears is violence and destruction. If black folks would have just marched, that would have just been on the news for 30 seconds.'

'It wasn't just the black people that was looting. There was more Mexicans than black people,' says Kokane, the happy rioter. His impression is right: 51 per cent of those arrested for rioting over those six days classified themselves as Hispanic. The Watts riot had been contained in a relatively small area; this time the sense of rage was far more widespread, both geographically and ethnically."


Lots of interesting and apposite points therein, not least that Kokane, who was a rapper of reasonable note - certainly not in need of material goods - states that he enjoyed looting. I don't think that the goods obtained by the looting is really the goal of the act - it's the smashing, the insurrection, the sheer visceral thrill of the wrong and the accompanying 'fuck you'.

owengriffiths
09-08-2011, 04:55 PM
Coming from this side of the water its interesting to see all the looting, thats almost unheard of when it comes to riots over here. Was there much looting that happened in Paris a few years ago?

Mr. Tea
09-08-2011, 05:15 PM
Should've qualified that statement, true. I meant that you don't see middle class people looting JD Sports, stealing in such an immediate way, because their theft is more subtle, but equally theft. So, yep, what you say is true

Hang on a sec - could you just recap what middle-class people you're talking about here, and what it is exactly "they're" (we're) stealing? Is every single middle-class person who's had a university education in that position precisely because someone else is unemployed or in jail or whatever? I don't think society is quite such a zero-sum game as you suggest.

Edit: I'm not talking about bankers and stockbrokers here - let's say teachers, lecturers, (NHS) doctors, whatever.

zhao
09-08-2011, 05:37 PM
Come on, who "needs" a brand new pair of Nikes, or an iPhone, or a massive flatscreen TV? Let's not pretend we're talking about the starving masses ransacking bakeries.

sorry if this has already been posted, as i have not finished reading the entire thread, but this from a friend of mine:


Adam Smith answered that argument back in the 18th Century, when he identifed the phenomenon of "relative poverty"...

"By necessaries I understand not only the commodities which are indispensably necessary for the support of life, ...but whatever the custom of the country renders it indecent for creditable people, even of the lowest order, to be without... Custom... has rendered leather shoes a necessary of life in England. The poorest creditable person of either sex would be ashamed to appear in public without them." (- The Wealth of Nations)

Consumer culture has basically expanded the idea of relative poverty to include brand name shoes and plasma TVs.

and from another:


ask any of them why they rushed JD sports and they will tell "man's don't get gal in busted trainers". in others words if you aint got the latest 200 pounds foot wear on it's like your barely a human being.

Sectionfive
09-08-2011, 05:38 PM
Coming from this side of the water its interesting to see all the looting, thats almost unheard of when it comes to riots over here. Was there much looting that happened in Paris a few years ago?

I think there was looting when the pension age protests turned nasty last year.

muser
09-08-2011, 05:48 PM
I really dont understand the obsession with calling all of this "criminality" of course its fucking criminality people are burning down houses and robbing shops.

All the EMA\cuts stuff is politcised bullshit aswell, it also is effectively avoiding any discussion on what really creates/has created this mindset.

muser
09-08-2011, 05:55 PM
I reckon this is all directly related to napster

FairiesWearBoots
09-08-2011, 06:11 PM
sorry if this has already been posted, as i have not finished reading the entire thread, but this from a friend of mine:



and from another:

exactly - they just want new creps, innit;)

(I can understand the desire for new sneakers)

IdleRich
09-08-2011, 06:14 PM
IPPC says Duggan did not fire.

Mark Duggan did not fire a shot at police officers before they killed him, the IPCC said on Tuesday.

Releasing the initial findings of ballistics tests, the police watchdog said a CO19 firearms officer fired two bullets and a bullet which was lodged in a police radio is "consistent with being fired from a police gun".

One theory, not confirmed by the IPCC, is that the bullet became lodged in the radio from a ricochet or after passing through Duggan.

Duggan, 29, was killed by armed officers last Thursday in Ferry Lane, Tottenham, north London, after they stopped the minicab he was travelling in.

The IPCC said Duggan was carrying a loaded gun, but it had no evidence the weapon had been fired and tests were continuing.

The officer who fired the fatal shots has been removed from firearms duties, which is standard procedure, pending the IPCC investigation.

Officers from the Met's Operation Trident and SCD 11 accompanied by officers from the Met's Specialist Firearms Command (CO19), stopped a silver Toyota Estima people carrier minicab in Ferry Lane, close to Tottenham Hale tube station to carry out the arrest. Duggan, a passenger in the mini-cab, was killed by a single gun shot wound to the chest. He also received a second gunshot wound to his right bicep.
He was pronounced dead at the scene at 6.41pm.

The IPCC's statement said that the bullet lodged in the MPS radio is a "jacketed round". This is a police issue bullet and is "consistent with having been fired from a [police] Heckler and Koch MP5".

The non-police firearm found at the scene was a converted BBM Bruni self loading pistol. The handgun was found to have a "bulleted cartridge" in the magazine, which is being subject to further forensic tests.

FairiesWearBoots
09-08-2011, 06:30 PM
I'm not surprised - but it doesnt mean he didnt draw for his gun though?

surely armed police should have shoulder cams/helmet cams to show transparency in this sort of volatile situation?

Mr. Tea
09-08-2011, 06:30 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RbnshwWL-A

vimothy
09-08-2011, 06:32 PM
Kicking off here tonight...

grizzleb
09-08-2011, 06:32 PM
This is the result of social problems that have been building up in this country for a couple of generations.

The so called underclass have effectively formed a scapegoat that is entirely acceptable for the political classes to deploy as it doesn't form around racial lines, and exploits some of the worst tropes about 'deserving' and 'undeserving' poor that should have been left to rot, where they belong, in the days of the poor law.

Yes, this is 'criminal' activity, and it's often justified (or not rather) by participants in crude terms of boredom, lack of money, bare anger, etc.

To take this at face value is to ignore that social/political factor do have influence people's lives. These people often can't put words to this, or really even have any critical framework to view their situation. Yes it's shitty behaviour, but it's just the eruption of violence from an area of society that has been cast as not worthy of dealing with for the last 30 years.

Fair enough, be angry at what's gone on, but I doubt most people on here have grown up in a fucking waste shithole where every second person is on smack and everyone at school is always brawling; everyone's parents are alkies or junkies. These impoverished places really are fucking shitholes...

Who bothers to take seriously what these people say? They are inarticulate and don't vote so they just get ignored. But it doesn't take a genius to see their conditions are shit. And if you call people scum for 20 years, it's no surprise that they live up to that expectation. Just chuck them onto the streets I suppose, that should do the trick.

Mr. Tea
09-08-2011, 06:34 PM
surely armed police should have shoulder cams/helmet cams to show transparency in this sort of volatile situation?

And because it would make an excellent late-night Channel 5 show.

IdleRich
09-08-2011, 06:46 PM
"I'm not surprised - but it doesnt mean he didnt draw for his gun though?"
Well they don't specifically say that he didn't but there is nothing whatsoever in that statement to suggest that he did so it seems a bit strange to take that line. Especially since there was a bullet which almost hit the police and which appears to have been fired by... the police.

zhao
09-08-2011, 07:01 PM
exactly - they just want new creps, innit;)

(I can understand the desire for new sneakers)

but the point is that while not life or death, the desire for new sneaks is not nearly as frivolous as it seems in the context.

Mr. Tea
09-08-2011, 07:05 PM
Especially since there was a bullet which almost hit the police and which appears to have been fired by... the police.

Yeah, I wanna know how this happened. Putting aside the more important matter of what happened to Duggan, there's some almost comically gross incompetence going on there, surely?

vimothy
09-08-2011, 07:11 PM
Well they don't specifically say that he didn't but there is nothing whatsoever in that statement to suggest that he did so it seems a bit strange to take that line.

But how could the IPCC possibly infer that from the ballistic tests that they have just reported on? The statement it doesnt mean he didnt draw for his gun though? is completely consistent with the IPCC thing you quoted upthread. That Duggan didn't fire at the police does not mean that he didn't draw his gun. Logically, that's entirely correct.

In fact, no one even knows if the police ever claimed that he did. The articles that are the source of this rumour do not attribute it to the police (and one Sky journalist whose twitter feed I've been following was saying days ago that the police never claimed that Duggan fired on them).

vimothy
09-08-2011, 07:20 PM
Market Street, Manchester, right now:

http://desmond.yfrog.com/Himg739/scaled.php?tn=0&server=739&filename=nxqqu.jpg&xsize=640&ysize=640

john eden
09-08-2011, 07:42 PM
I'm not surprised - but it doesnt mean he didnt draw for his gun though?

surely armed police should have shoulder cams/helmet cams to show transparency in this sort of volatile situation?

The Guardian has stated that the non-police gun was found inside a sock. Obviously guns can be fired whilst inside socks. More info needed from statements and CCTV really.

One of the many sensible demands of the justice for smiley culture campaign is shoulder or headcams for armed police (and cameras inside police vans).

IdleRich
09-08-2011, 07:43 PM
"The statement it doesnt mean he didnt draw for his gun though? is completely consistent with the IPCC thing you quoted upthread. That Duggan didn't fire at the police does not mean that he didn't draw his gun. Logically, that's entirely correct."
Yeah, it's logically correct. The "doesn't mean he didn't draw his gun statement" is totally consistent with the IPCC's statement as is "Duggan hypnotized the police to trick them into firing" or "Duggan snatched the guns from the police and fired a bullet through his arm into the radio before shooting himself in the chest" or infinitely many other statements that aren't explicitly denied and which therefore have the same logical correctness. I don't see anyone mentioning those later options though and I'm guessing that that is because, although they are not denied, they are also not implied by the statement and there is thus no reason to raise them.

paolo
09-08-2011, 07:50 PM
Market Street, Manchester, right now:

http://desmond.yfrog.com/Himg739/scaled.php?tn=0&server=739&filename=nxqqu.jpg&xsize=640&ysize=640

Good, Miss Selfridge is pish. I'm going to Birmingham on Thursday to visit the grandparents for a few days :eek:

Glasgow teenager arrested for rioty Facebook message - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-14461393

Scottish police>>>>English police :cool:

vimothy
09-08-2011, 07:51 PM
The fact that he was shot implies that the either 1, the police thought he was a threat, and shot him, or 2, that they didn't think he was a threat, and shot him anyway.

One of these must be true. It is obviously impossible to decide which on the basis of a ballistic test. Consequently, there is no reason to expect that the IPCC would decide this on the basis of the ballistic test--which was, in fact, the implication of your claim.

edit: @rich, obvs

john eden
09-08-2011, 07:52 PM
It's a ballistics report, as promised. It was only ever going to be about what went bang and how many times.

They are obv releasing this early to dispel the "4 shots / execution" rumour.

vimothy
09-08-2011, 07:55 PM
John, Exactly

john eden
09-08-2011, 07:57 PM
John, Exactly

Innit :)

Mr. Tea
09-08-2011, 08:02 PM
One of the most frustrating things about this case - for Duggan's family, for the Met* and for the public, whether they support the police, hate them or whatever - is that no-one apart from the officers involved is ever going to know for sure exactly what happened. Which is why the idea that officers should have to carry or wear some sort of black-box recorder every time they undertake a potentially hazardous arrest like this is such a good idea.

*actually, if the worst-case scenario is true it's clearly in the Met's interest for this not to come out

vimothy
09-08-2011, 08:11 PM
http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lpoc3lpxGe1r1qajlo1_500.png

lol

IdleRich
09-08-2011, 08:14 PM
"They are obv releasing this early to dispel the "4 shots / execution" rumour."
Possibly but it also makes it clear that there was no truth in the rumour (whether started by the police or not) that Duggan fired first. Or at all I guess.


"The fact that he was shot implies that the either 1, the police thought he was a threat, and shot him, or 2, that they didn't think he was a threat, and shot him anyway."
Well presumably (hopefully) it's 1. The question is how reasonable were they in believing this. As far as I know there have been no statements about this - apart from the thing about him (Duggan) shooting first. Unless I've missed something, the stories I've read say in a nutshell "a man was arrested and died in the course of that arrest".


"Consequently, there is no reason to expect that the IPCC would decide this on the basis of the ballistic test--which was, in fact, the implication of your claim."
Which claim would that be?

shiels
09-08-2011, 08:27 PM
This is the result of social problems that have been building up in this country for a couple of generations.

The so called underclass have effectively formed a scapegoat that is entirely acceptable for the political classes to deploy as it doesn't form around racial lines, and exploits some of the worst tropes about 'deserving' and 'undeserving' poor that should have been left to rot, where they belong, in the days of the poor law.

Yes, this is 'criminal' activity, and it's often justified (or not rather) by participants in crude terms of boredom, lack of money, bare anger, etc.

To take this at face value is to ignore that social/political factor do have influence people's lives. These people often can't put words to this, or really even have any critical framework to view their situation. Yes it's shitty behaviour, but it's just the eruption of violence from an area of society that has been cast as not worthy of dealing with for the last 30 years.

Fair enough, be angry at what's gone on, but I doubt most people on here have grown up in a fucking waste shithole where every second person is on smack and everyone at school is always brawling; everyone's parents are alkies or junkies. These impoverished places really are fucking shitholes...

Who bothers to take seriously what these people say? They are inarticulate and don't vote so they just get ignored. But it doesn't take a genius to see their conditions are shit. And if you call people scum for 20 years, it's no surprise that they live up to that expectation. Just chuck them onto the streets I suppose, that should do the trick.

http://www.versobooks.com/system/images/1130/original/Chavs-frontcover.jpg

I'm just a chapter into this, but it seems promising in addressing a lot of the things you've just mentioned..

vimothy
09-08-2011, 08:33 PM
Which claim would that be?

That it is strange to take the line that it doesn't mean that he drew his gun, given that the IPCC statement didn't address it.


the stories I've read say in a nutshell "a man was arrested and died in the course of that arrest".

But where are these stories coming from? It's impossible to separate fact from bullshit at this stage. Journalists print each other's rumours, and print other people's rumours--all the time. It's their whole business model! Why do they suddenly the objective view point in all this? All anyone has at this point is their prejudices and speculation.

gumdrops
09-08-2011, 08:34 PM
seen a few interviews with rioters today where they seem to be trying (not very well tbh but hey that doesnt mean the anger isnt real, not their fault they cant articlate it, its michael goves) to ascribe political reasons to what theyre doing. but instead of the police, they should say theyre against capitalism, or sports brands exploiting them, cos their actions have little to do with the police brutality. i was wrong to dismiss the early chattering classes comments about it being very much to do with the recession and problems that have been simmering for a good while now. this is a classic haves and have nots war. and these kids dont want to be in the latter camp. they just dont care who gets hurt/dies/burns/beaten/loses their livelihood etc etc, they just want to go shopping.

vimothy
09-08-2011, 08:38 PM
I keep thinking that it's amazing how prescient John Robb / Global Guerillas was... The future has arrived, in England.

IdleRich
09-08-2011, 08:48 PM
"That it is strange to take the line that it doesn't mean that he drew his gun, given that the IPCC statement didn't address it."
What I mean is that's not the immediate thing that comes to mind to me after the ballistic report. The ballistic report proves that he didn't fire, that's all but it's something. To immediately suggest that there is another possibility which is almost equivalent on the back of that report seems to suggest an agenda. Supposing it was proven beyond doubt that he didn't try to fire, I don't think that the automatic response to that is to suggest another scenario in which the police were within their rights to think he was about to fire, when there is no reason to believe in that scenario.
edit: you mean didn't draw his gun I think


"But where are these stories coming from? It's impossible to separate fact from bullshit at this stage. Journalists print each other's rumours, and print other people's rumours--all the time. It's their whole business model! Why do they suddenly the objective view point in all this? All anyone has at this point is their prejudices and speculation."
I'm not sure that's true about the story I said above is it though? ie

"a man was arrested and died in the course of that arrest"

No-one is contesting that right?

IdleRich
09-08-2011, 08:50 PM
The lack of evidence is all the more reason not to speculate is what I'm saying.

Tentative Andy
09-08-2011, 08:56 PM
I kind of agree with what Grizzle is saying but it's a subject that I need to give more thought to.

vimothy
09-08-2011, 09:04 PM
I'm not sure that's true about the story I said above is it though? ie

No, you're right--I misread that as arrested and then was killed.


What I mean is that's not the immediate thing that comes to mind to me after the ballistic report.

But it's the immediate thing that comes to mind before the report--isn't it? Police shot someone, so they must have though he was a threat (or they just deliberately killed him).

The IPCC report establishes that Duggan never fired on the police, but that's it. Given that he never fired on the police... well, that's it! That's all it proves. There's no evidence to suggest that the IPCC ever set out to prove anything with the ballistic test other than who fired what.


To immediately suggest that there is another possibility which is almost equivalent on the back of that report seems to suggest an agenda.

How? Isn't it just, like, the obvious? No one from the police ever said that Duggan fired at them, as far as you know--that's just an assumption that everyone is making based on rumour.

Sectionfive
09-08-2011, 09:28 PM
The lads are out on Sky news and the Millwall crew are sing "no one loots us"...

Did ye see the clip of yer man running out of the shop with the carpet sample rack.

vimothy
09-08-2011, 09:30 PM
Supposing it was proven beyond doubt that he didn't try to fire, I don't think that the automatic response to that is to suggest another scenario in which the police were within their rights to think he was about to fire, when there is no reason to believe in that scenario.

Right, but why have we set up a situation where the test is did Duggan fire at the police? Who from the police actually claimed that he did? No one knows. If you read the initial articles carefully, they don't say that the police claimed that either.

You are presented with one rumour, that the police were fired on. This turns out to be false, so you choose to weight another rumour. But it's all speculation.


edit: you mean didn't draw his gun I think

Hahaha, getting complicated!

I meant that your claim was that it is strange to assume that he did draw his gun, given that the IPCC report doesn't say that did draw his gun.

IdleRich
09-08-2011, 09:33 PM
Oh yeah.

vimothy
09-08-2011, 09:36 PM
Has anyone from the media considered that the relentless 24/7 coverage might not be helping, I wonder.

Sectionfive
09-08-2011, 09:42 PM
Not at all. Twitter is solely to blame.

hucks
09-08-2011, 09:43 PM
Has anyone from the media considered that the relentless 24/7 coverage might not be helping, I wonder.

It's certainly giving me a nervous breakdown

pattycakes
09-08-2011, 09:44 PM
where is the best place to stay abreast of whats going on?

i'm using this so far

http://thewestlondoner.wordpress.com/2011/08/09/new-riot-information/

IdleRich
09-08-2011, 09:45 PM
Well it goes back to what John said earlier I think


"The Met don't put up all their press releases for public consumption, such is their commitment to transparency.
It is quite clear from the literature about the death of Colin Roach (in Stoke Newington Police station in 1983) and the death of Smiley Culture earlier this year that the Met have a long history of briefing the press off the record about deaths in custody."
The rumour that he fired came from somewhere and it tends to work for the police - although I appreciate that you're saying that the rumour about the firing only existed in a kind of meta way - "the police are saying that he fired first".


"You are presented with one rumour, that the police were fired on. This turns out to be false, so you choose to weight another rumour. But it's all speculation."
What's the other rumour? Or is it the afore-mentioned rumour about the rumour?


"How? Isn't it just, like, the obvious? No one from the police ever said that Duggan fired at them, as far as you know--that's just an assumption that everyone is making based on rumour."
But the police haven't said anything. Why invent potential excuse scenarios for them?


"Has anyone from the media considered that the relentless 24/7 coverage might not be helping, I wonder."
I think it's feeding the flames - but I've been surprised how many people involved seem to be against being photographed even though they're all covered up. I thought that in our post-Big Brother society they would all want to be on telly. Haven't they seen Dog Day Afternoon?

you
09-08-2011, 09:46 PM
Has anyone from the media considered that the relentless 24/7 coverage might not be helping, I wonder.

- Isn't this how the media thing operate nowadays, a la brookerian analysis? Fanning flames for extra material, making news themselves ( like fuel panic buying etc ) in order to report it....

vimothy
09-08-2011, 10:09 PM
Oldham St earlier this evening: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsS8kTQkjfE

Salford, Middleton, Moss Side also seeing action.

IdleRich
09-08-2011, 10:40 PM
No police in sight. Possibly not unrelatedly my friends just saw a van saying Manchester Metropolitan Police on the side in Stoke Newington.

Mr. Tea
09-08-2011, 11:17 PM
http://www.versobooks.com/system/images/1130/original/Chavs-frontcover.jpg

I hate this kind of stuff, for the reason that it assumes an identity between those identified as 'chavs' by popular media/the public with 'the working class' (whatever that even means these days).

Most 'chavs' (if we assume that to mean ignorant, frequently inebriated, needlessly aggressive people) are not working class, if we understand 'working class' to mean people who work for a living doing something you don't have to study for at university. Similarly, the vast majority of working-class people are not 'chavs'. There's no shortage of middle-class 'chavs', or at any rate, obnoxious shallow pricks with a penchance for violence who've come from comfortably-off backgrounds.

This all just comes out of middle-class guilt and self-hatred. I'm reminded of Julie Burchill's ludicrous fantasies about her own 'chavdom'. Because obviously writing a self-important opinion column for a broadsheet newspaper is a typically 'chavish' occupation....

baboon2004
09-08-2011, 11:39 PM
I hate this kind of stuff, for the reason that it assumes an identity between those identified as 'chavs' by popular media/the public with 'the working class' (whatever that even means these days).

Most 'chavs' (if we assume that to mean ignorant, frequently inebriated, needlessly aggressive people) are not working class, if we understand 'working class' to mean people who work for a living doing something you don't have to study at university. Similarly, the vast majority of working-class people are not 'chavs'. There's no shortage of middle-class 'chavs', or at any rate, obnoxious shallow pricks with a penchance for violence who've come from comfortably-off backgrounds.

This all just comes out of middle-class guilt and self-hatred.

Chav is definitely a word used to signify class hatred, no two ways about it. People who are 'common'. Aggressive middle class people never get called chavs, ever, simply not true. They may get called lots of other things, but not chavs - this is blatantly just untrue! you're redefining how the word is actually used in an everyday context to fit your argument - people do not go around calling pissed up English public school rugby lads 'chavs', however they act.

It's a very good book. The 'middle class self hatred' line is a bit meaningless, i think - feeling empathy with people who didn't have it as good as you is a very different thing from self-hatred. Most of those who self-hate spew their hate onto others, and so are far more likely to be the people calling others 'chavs'.

HMGovt
09-08-2011, 11:42 PM
Eh, it's from the Telegraph, but it is an interesting piece of local reporting with some perspective on one of the more interesting developments of the past 24 hours - vigilantism, turf wars http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/8691358/London-riots-the-knives-are-being-sharpened.html

DannyL
09-08-2011, 11:50 PM
I hate this kind of stuff, for the reason that it assumes an identity between those identified as 'chavs' by popular media/the public with 'the working class' (whatever that even means these days).

...

This all just comes out of middle-class guilt and self-hatred. I'm reminded of Julie Burchill's ludicrous fantasies about her own 'chavdom'. Because obviously writing a self-important opinion column for a broadsheet newspaper is a typically 'chavish' occupation....

I disagree. I think the "chavs" narrative is clearly tied into media representations of the working class over the last, say, ten years or so, and grows out of dialogue about an "underclass" - a group which is not actually working = less deserving, benefit reliant and so on.

Most 'chavs' (if we assume that to mean ignorant, frequently inebriated, needlessly aggressive people)

But it doesn't mean that does it? It means someone who has the signifiers associated with "chavvy" which are those of dress, accent and behaviour. And the behavior need not be aggressive to qualify as "chavvy" it could just be doing something that's not perceived as classy i.e. eating chips with gravy and mushy peas. Or to go back to dress, wearing a Burberry shirt or big hoop earrings. "Chav' is definitely a term used to damn class signifiers, no doubt about it.

There's no shortage of middle-class 'chavs', or at any rate, obnoxious shallow pricks with a penchance for violence who've come from comfortably-off backgrounds.

Find me a representation of the middle classes, even at their most disorderly, that uses the word "chav". I doubt such a thing exists.

DannyL
09-08-2011, 11:52 PM
Xpost. My gravy and mushy peas signifier is a bit crap but I've been in the pub. Tea, can't you imagine someone describing my accent as "chavvy"? Regardless of what i"m doing...

baboon2004
09-08-2011, 11:54 PM
For any North Americans reading, 'chav' is used in pretty much the same way as 'white trash'. Inextricably linked to perceived class.

grizzleb
09-08-2011, 11:54 PM
I hate this kind of stuff, for the reason that it assumes an identity between those identified as 'chavs' by popular media/the public with 'the working class' (whatever that even means these days).

Most 'chavs' (if we assume that to mean ignorant, frequently inebriated, needlessly aggressive people) are not working class, if we understand 'working class' to mean people who work for a living doing something you don't have to study at university. Similarly, the vast majority of working-class people are not 'chavs'. There's no shortage of middle-class 'chavs', or at any rate, obnoxious shallow pricks with a penchance for violence who've come from comfortably-off backgrounds.

This all just comes out of middle-class guilt and self-hatred. I'm reminded of Julie Burchill's ludicrous fantasies about her own 'chavdom'. Because obviously writing a self-important opinion column for a broadsheet newspaper is a typically 'chavish' occupation....Well, for one thing, you haven't read the book and you're, so to speak, judging it by its cover. Maybe it discusses the subtleties of class.

There is a link between what is called 'chav culture' and poverty. You can't say that most chavs aren't working class - maybe they don't work now but I'd wager their grandparents did. And working in farmfoods for a year I worked alongside people I'd definitely call 'neds' or whatever, they worked, they liked a drink, they watched shite telly and they lived on schemes. They weren't bad people but they probably didn't have much hope or the future, neither did their children.

What you're talking about assumes there is this large group of people who are basically scum and can be excluded from society on that basis. To do so is to basically say that there is a group who are no longer deserving of any intervention on their behalf. I think that the only way we can improve the lot of people in estates and what else is to not view them as simply 'needlessly aggressive, frequently inebriated' but people who exist in malign and insidious social conditions that results in a kind of nihilistic hopelessness and anger. The only way to improve on this is to take efforts to try and improve their conditions.

I think that there has been a concerted effort to break down class identification and redefine the terms of what belonging to a certain class means since the 1980's. I view it as two-pronged. People who would have identified as working class 30 years ago will often now identify as middle-class simply because they have aspirations, they perhaps own their own council house, they want their kids to go to a university. The distruction of the trade-union movement also contributes to this, as less and less people see themselves tied together with workers doing similar jobs and trying to get better conditions for themselves.
On the other hand you have the muddying of the lines of what 'working class' means to start to become the aformentioned 'chav' culture (also called the underclass), and nobody who is aware of the significance of class would want to identified with such a group as it is portrayed.

The benefits for essentially dissolving the working class as a self-identified group seem to me pretty obvious.

Mr. Tea
09-08-2011, 11:55 PM
Chav is definitely a word used to signify class hatred, no two ways about it. People who are 'common'. Aggressive middle class people never get called chavs, ever, simply not true. They may get called lots of other things, but not chavs - this is blatantly just untrue!

OK, well maybe I'm confusing my own views and experiences with those of The Public. But just thinking back to my own adolescence, there were 'townies' (this was in the '90s, before 'chavs' had been invented, as such) who came from rough estates but there were also those who came from middle-class backgrounds, or at least from families that lived in detached houses and had two cars. And there were plenty of working-class kids who hated the townies, precisely because they lived cheek-by-jowl with them and had to endure their shitty antisocial behaviour.

Mr. Tea
10-08-2011, 12:03 AM
Xpost. My gravy and mushy peas signifier is a bit crap but I've been in the pub. Tea, can't you imagine someone describing my accent as "chavvy"? Regardless of what i"m doing...

Well yeah, I probably could, but I'd think such a person was an idiot. To me, you just sound like a Londoner. Some people think I sound "posh", as if I grew up in some fucking country house with a butler at my beck and call - whereas I was the kid who had the piss taken out of him at school for having crap ("gay") trainers...

I'll admit I'm out on a limb here because I'm obviously talking about my own interpretation of a word that a lot of people, perhaps most people, use differently, so fair enough.

FWIT I fucking love mushy peas - perhaps I'm a bit of a chav after all.

Sectionfive
10-08-2011, 12:27 AM
:D

http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/9923/riots.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/534/riots.png/)


Following a Sikh channel at the minute live on the streets.
Guy narrating is very good.

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/sangat-tv

zhao
10-08-2011, 12:31 AM
only lower class girls wear big hoop earrings over there?

Mr. Tea
10-08-2011, 12:39 AM
only lower class girls wear big hoop earrings over there?

That's the general perception, yes.

sufi
10-08-2011, 01:21 AM
Eh, it's from the Telegraph, but it is an interesting piece of local reporting with some perspective on one of the more interesting developments of the past 24 hours - vigilantism, turf wars http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/8691358/London-riots-the-knives-are-being-sharpened.html
this is like something from the 19th century, & the comments are worse

davelj (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/8691358/London-riots-the-knives-are-being-sharpened.html#comment-281570387)
3 minutes agoI hope your "partner" was female, Sir and commited toward a marital relationship......if not, you are part of the problem ???? 3 minutes agoI hope your "partner" was female, Sir and commited toward a marital relationship......if not, you are part of the problem ????

mistersloane
10-08-2011, 01:39 AM
Well, for one thing, you haven't read the book and you're, so to speak, judging it by its cover. Maybe it discusses the subtleties of class.

There is a link between what is called 'chav culture' and poverty. You can't say that most chavs aren't working class - maybe they don't work now but I'd wager their grandparents did. And working in farmfoods for a year I worked alongside people I'd definitely call 'neds' or whatever, they worked, they liked a drink, they watched shite telly and they lived on schemes. They weren't bad people but they probably didn't have much hope or the future, neither did their children.

What you're talking about assumes there is this large group of people who are basically scum and can be excluded from society on that basis. To do so is to basically say that there is a group who are no longer deserving of any intervention on their behalf. I think that the only way we can improve the lot of people in estates and what else is to not view them as simply 'needlessly aggressive, frequently inebriated' but people who exist in malign and insidious social conditions that results in a kind of nihilistic hopelessness and anger. The only way to improve on this is to take efforts to try and improve their conditions.

I think that there has been a concerted effort to break down class identification and redefine the terms of what belonging to a certain class means since the 1980's. I view it as two-pronged. People who would have identified as working class 30 years ago will often now identify as middle-class simply because they have aspirations, they perhaps own their own council house, they want their kids to go to a university. The distruction of the trade-union movement also contributes to this, as less and less people see themselves tied together with workers doing similar jobs and trying to get better conditions for themselves.
On the other hand you have the muddying of the lines of what 'working class' means to start to become the aformentioned 'chav' culture (also called the underclass), and nobody who is aware of the significance of class would want to identified with such a group as it is portrayed.

The benefits for essentially dissolving the working class as a self-identified group seem to me pretty obvious.

I generally think what you say on here is brilliant, I generally think what you say here is overlooked, and I'll address that in my next post, but what I'd like to say, at 1:36 in the morning after 3 nights of little sleep and whatever, is that I'd like both you and baboon to go into local politics, please. I don't care whether either of you actually do, but in my quiet moments I'm a prophet and you should really listen to what I say.

atoga
10-08-2011, 01:42 AM
kmt

mistersloane
10-08-2011, 02:07 AM
on top of the "we are all middle class now" type sentiments there is also the idea that working/lower class values have eroded. there is no more noble working class which works hard at their factory job and buys sensibly priced footwear - instead they recklessly piss away their money (provided by the welfare state of course) on expensive trainers, gaudy jewellery & whatever other un-classy shit you can think of.

this must be related to why trainers are the dominant object which people are talking about being stolen, rather than bikes or ipads.

unlike white trash in the US though, they don't have a lobby (i think?) and no one talks about them as though they are the "real" population of their country.

I really don't know what you're saying. I don't know where you're from, but really you should shut the fuck up. I've really had enough of cunts like you on the net over the past few days. Really just fuck off. Fuck off, and don't pass comment on shit you obviously have no knowledge of. You're just embarrassing yourself. Really, just fuck off. Preferably kill yourself. You'd be doing the world a favour.

atoga
10-08-2011, 02:16 AM
kmt

mistersloane
10-08-2011, 02:33 AM
i'm saying that's one of the dominant sentiments, it's not what i believe. thought that was clear

whatever slime

Is it? I thought you were re-iterating reactionary cunt thought, adding your own 'dime' of cock, like barebacking without the real risk, and then re-viewing dialogue from an even more patronising point as an ideal of being constructive.

atoga
10-08-2011, 02:43 AM
kmt

mistersloane
10-08-2011, 02:58 AM
i was just lumping onto grizzleb's post - the idea that there's no more respectable or diligent working class, just chavs is a somewhat important one i thought. it probably has as much to do with the idea that chavs cannot be helped as the idea that (almost) everyone is middle class now through college or car ownership or whatever.

sorry, i suck at posting on internet forums i guess. imma fuck off & kill myself now

oh god just ignore me man, i apologise. i drunk riot juice and been out n inside this stuff on internets, tired and drunk. sorry m8, i just had a fistful of stuff in pubs and facebook and twitter, can't see wood for trees. too many people and you got it in the neck, apologies. at least slime is good for lube.

DannyL
10-08-2011, 08:39 AM
i was just lumping onto grizzleb's post - the idea that there's no more respectable or diligent working class, just chavs is a somewhat important one i thought. it probably has as much to do with the idea that chavs cannot be helped as the idea that (almost) everyone is middle class now through college or car ownership or whatever.

sorry, i suck at posting on internet forums i guess. imma fuck off & kill myself now

Yeah, that was a bit harsh Sloane. I know where you're coming from though, the lurch to the right by almost fucking everyone is a bit wearing.

To get back to the post above, yeah, I think that's accurate. I'm trying to think of the last time I even saw a depiction of a specifically identified working class person outside of a Ken Loach film and I'm struggling, while the idea of "chavs" and the underclass seems to dominate the discourse. I don't like using the latter term for the similar reasons as I dislike the former.