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View Full Version : Conspiracy Competition. I lay down the gauntlet.



luka
13-10-2011, 01:57 AM
mr tea, mr sloane, languano, you etc have you ever wondered who makes this stuff up? someone must, might as well be us.
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/
mayb this is a good conduit i dont know. we will think about it. we MUST get on of our ideas mainstream in the conspiracy world. if you believe you can achieve

slowtrain
13-10-2011, 02:15 AM
Yes!

This is a brilliant idea for a thread.

I don't know anything at all about politics (I am allergic to politics) (and I don't think that that has stopped must ATS members) but I would be willing to help.

Mr. Tea
13-10-2011, 07:13 AM
When all's said and done, I reckon luka's probably responsible for a good 3/4 of it. But I'll give it some thought and get back you.

Mr. Tea
04-07-2017, 12:59 PM
You're up against some stiff competition here, Luke me old boy.

267

DannyL
04-07-2017, 01:39 PM
That opening page is like a vision of hell. So many conversations, so little concern for facts.

Mr. Tea
04-07-2017, 01:53 PM
I love how they have categories called things like "9/11 conspiracies" and "Area 51", and one of them is just called "Japan".

DannyL
04-07-2017, 02:27 PM
I love how they have categories called things like "9/11 conspiracies" and "Area 51", and one of them is just called "Japan".

lol

I love the fact it's called "Above Top Secret" as well. It's all totally hidden and secret guys - Unless you have access to this crazy thing called the internet!

luka
04-07-2017, 03:04 PM
Pathetic failed thread by me

john eden
04-07-2017, 05:19 PM
Maybe the real conspiracy was the friends we made along the way.

Mr. Tea
04-07-2017, 05:26 PM
Nah, it's the way food manufacturers use Best Before dates to try and make you throw away perfectly good food.

DannyL
05-07-2017, 09:57 AM
Pathetic failed thread by me

I didn't really understand the terms - what were we supposed to do?

I used to find them entertaining but I mostly find 'em depressing now, as they've become more and more part of the way people talk and think about politics. People have failed me.

Mr. Tea
05-07-2017, 10:48 AM
I'm just puzzled by the prevalence of flat-earthers. It seems to be getting more and more common.

Potentially the most harmful of the widespread conspiracy theories is climate change denialism, although Jews Secretly Run The World shows no sign of going away any time soon. (Of course there's notable x-over between the two, as shown for instance by the delightful Piers Corbyn.)

john eden
05-07-2017, 11:24 AM
I didn't really understand the terms - what were we supposed to do?

I used to find them entertaining but I mostly find 'em depressing now, as they've become more and more part of the way people talk and think about politics. People have failed me.

In a recent episode of popular TV show "24 hours in police custody", a young man was arrested for stabbing someone. (He was a complete twat, frankly, but ended up not being convicted because of a lack of evidence).

Interviewed for the programme in the cells, he was keen to harp on about police corruption. The little sympathy I had for him soon evaporated when the evidence of police corruption turned out to be "all the symbols they have on their helmets, they're illuminati, yeah?"

firefinga
05-07-2017, 11:25 AM
What I like most about conspiracy theories - apart from some of the basic ideas which seem absolutely hilarious to me like the secret Nazi empire located on the dark side of the moon - is the very common basic idea: That there is this shadow group uf puppeteers pulling the strings (usually, as you correctly pointed out Tea, its the jews, THE JEWS,MAN) who orchestrate world wars, stock market crashes, fake the moon landing, run paedophile pelasure camps for the illuminati etc etc, but fail to hide their evil ways from Joe Average who just deciphers it all.

Mr. Tea
05-07-2017, 11:41 AM
Don't forget that they also like to encode clues about their dastardly schemes in, for instance, the design of the US$1 bill. For some reason.

Mr. Tea
05-07-2017, 11:50 AM
Also, describing some of these guys as


Joe Average

is being very generous indeed.

john eden
05-07-2017, 11:58 AM
I think it's a woeful part of popular culture now. In the 70s and 80s it was only cranks and subcultural types that namechecked this stuff. Arguably it had the potential to be amusingly subversive then (I think that's what Robert Anton Wilson was trying to get at with his "Illuminatus" trilogy certainly).

But the reality of this in 2017 is just shit stoner culture, really. And some guy holding up a pizza restaurant with a gun, trying to find abused children.

I think "Joe Average" is an entirely accurate description. It's not at all unusual to meet people who think 9/11 was an inside job or that David Icke has "some interesting ideas" or that things are controlled by a shadowy cabal.

Mr. Tea
05-07-2017, 12:09 PM
I'm a member of a great FB group called I Don't Think That's Science. Well, I say great - I guess it's hilarious and worrying in equal measure. In particular, the hostility towards medicine of the great (mainly American) Facebook/Tumblr/Instagram-using public is frankly scary. The anti-vaxxer movement is only the most well-known aspect of anti-medicine conspiracy theory; many people also have an extreme prejudice against any kind of psychiatry, especially pharmaceutical psychiatry, and almost anything that's used either to help you not get cancer in the first place or to treat it once you've got it, from tanning lotion to radiotherapy, will be shockingly revealed as the cause of cancer. It's quite astonishing.

firefinga
05-07-2017, 12:13 PM
Well, they usually see themselves as "Joe Average", don't they?

Plus, it's so easy to get invovled in those circles these days over the net. In pre-net times, you'd have to buy obscure books, check out odd catalogs, read weirdo fanzines. Those ideas floating around aren't new usually, but they're spread just way more easily now. And another thing doesn't help, namley the rare occasion of factual conspiracies like Italy's "Propaganda Due" :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda_Due

Mr. Tea
05-07-2017, 12:31 PM
I think it's a woeful part of popular culture now. In the 70s and 80s it was only cranks and subcultural types that namechecked this stuff. Arguably it had the potential to be amusingly subversive then (I think that's what Robert Anton Wilson was trying to get at with his "Illuminatus" trilogy certainly).

Yeah, Wilson and Shea are/were obviously smart guys - I've not read Illuminatus! but I did read the Schroedinger's Cat trilogy a long time ago, and I gather it covers a lot of the same themes. It seemed to me that they were using these grand, shadowy, occult conspiracies as metaphors for kind of boring but very real conspiracies, like industry lobbies, think tanks, major religious bodies, the media and so on.

(All of which is not to suggest that groups like the Skull & Bones don't exist and have influential members - of course they do - but, as was depicted rather brilliantly in the most recent series of House of Cards, they're mostly an excuse for a bunch of rich blokes to dress up, get drunk and generally prat about, and also to fraternize and make contacts in a way that's not really any different from attending trade shows or using LinkedIn.)


But the reality of this in 2017 is just shit stoner culture, really. And some guy holding up a pizza restaurant with a gun, trying to find abused children.


Yeah, it's fucking tragic. And it goes to show that there's no-one more credulous than the man convinced that he and he alone - or he and a few select others, anyway - has figured it all out while the rest of us mill around going 'baaa'. (http://www.dissensus.com/showthread.php?t=3236&page=7)

firefinga
05-07-2017, 12:43 PM
The anti-vaxxer movement is only the most well-known aspect of anti-medicine conspiracy theory;

Me thinks, they are one of the more prominent conspiracy groups of today, regarding numers and errr "influence". There used to be an article here and there in the past, but the last few years they seem to be popping up in the evening TV news repeatedly (at least in the German speaking world). Which is somewhat the evidence of reaching mainstream awareness.

sufi
05-07-2017, 02:51 PM
A classic thread-bumpo from dissensus' anti-conspiranaut faction, who seem to feel the irresistible need to promote conspiracies and assign them to shadowy "groups" and "movements" from the fringes of cyberspace and social media "They are everywhere and getting more and more!"
Luckily our antis are so insightful that only they can perceive the enormous false consciousness that these theoretical conspiranoids are labouring under.
phew, thank goodness for the woke sheeple, where's my laughing crying smiley :crylarf:

DannyL
05-07-2017, 03:04 PM
Yeah, Wilson and Shea are/were obviously smart guys - I've not read Illuminatus! but I did read the Schroedinger's Cat trilogy a long time ago, and I gather it covers a lot of the same themes. It seemed to me that they were using these grand, shadowy, occult conspiracies as metaphors for kind of boring but very real conspiracies, like industry lobbies, think tanks, major religious bodies, the media and so on.



Pynchon would be the Daddy here, I guess, though I didn't realise this when I read Wilson.

Part of my depressive response when confronted with this stuff nowadays comes out of being engaged (to a very limited extent) with what comes out of Syria. Assad in conjunction with the Russian state are running a hugely successful "fog of war" campaign to distort/deny/sow confusion about what's happening out there. The Khan Sheikhoun attack is a good exemplar, or the commentary that surrounds The White Helmets. See the comments underneath this Monbiot tweet for examples: https://mobile.twitter.com/GeorgeMonbiot/status/881785821371695104

The fucking Canary was pumping out the same bullshit the other day, which is a big reason I can't feel at all supportive towards the Corbynite Left as discussed at length with Droid in the Corbyn thread.

It's such a close fit with people's unarticulated distrust of "the man" that it gets lapped up and disseminated thoughtlessly. Idrees Ahmed wrote (https://medium.com/news-politics/aleppo-is-our-guernica-and-some-are-cheering-on-the-luftwaffe-ceb10b18a1ca) "There are few things more commonplace than an Oedipal disdain for one’s own government" which is absolutely spot on in describing the emotional dynamics at work here.

I can't find this shit entertaining anymore.

DannyL
05-07-2017, 03:12 PM
Good article on what is underlies a lot of "conspiracies" -states spreading disinformation: https://www.technologyreview.com/s/604084/russian-disinformation-technology/

firefinga
05-07-2017, 03:14 PM
Another conspiracy template that seems to have crept into the mainstream is the accusation of "rigged elections", but only when the result doesn't suit the whiners'. Admittedly, usually coming from the right/populists' camps, but also seen from leftists.

luka
05-07-2017, 04:04 PM
boring innit sufi
its like weve gone back 2 square 1
the internet has scared people into reactionary positions. predictble but dispriting nonetheless
run back to daddy

luka
05-07-2017, 04:04 PM
daddy knows best

luka
05-07-2017, 04:08 PM
the internet has thrown two related problems into stark releif
1. the credulity of human people
2. the pollution of the the information supply

it is not a cause. it is a magnifying glass.

luka
05-07-2017, 04:09 PM
are people too stupid to be permitted to think (and research) for themselves?
it's possible but you couldnt draw a more undemocratic conclusion.

john eden
05-07-2017, 04:12 PM
are people too stupid to be permitted to think (and research) for themselves?

Lots of people are doing this, of course.

The idea that if everyone did this they would all end up at conspiracy theories is hilarious.

luka
05-07-2017, 04:14 PM
there seems to be a feeling among the bloc sufi identifies here (anti-conspirinaut) that truth is simple straight forward and self-evident and that its arbiter is daddy
again this strikes me as anti democratic. there are dangers (eg pogroms, outbreaks of tb or cowpox etc) but they must be faced and fought not retreated from.
it will likely take at least a couple of generations to get to grips with.

luka
05-07-2017, 04:15 PM
Lots of people are doing this, of course.

The idea that if everyone did this they would all end up at conspiracy theories is hilarious.

i dont know what this means but suspect its the wrong end of the stick

DannyL
05-07-2017, 04:23 PM
are people too stupid to be permitted to think (and research) for themselves?
it's possible but you couldnt draw a more undemocratic conclusion.

It's not a question of permission - just lots of the positions that people arrive at are bullshit. I'd say it's lack of (self-driven) research - lack of knowing a subject deeply. I'd say intellectual laziness drives this and an easy willingness to fit facts into pre-existing conclusions. Also, it's a lack of awareness about how these narratives provide cover for the actions of states and are therefore actively perpetuated by them.

Conspiracies often reproduce our existing power relations as well, while masking them - with Syria, a lot of the commentary is straight up racist. White people discounting Arab voices and explaining what it's *really* about, which is seen through the lens of our concerns. Thus (for instance) Syria is about "pipelines" - the whole history of the region, its various factions/ethnicities/clans/classes, the aspirations towards democracy of the revolution - all this is elided under some bullshit which makes it about the West.

john eden
05-07-2017, 04:24 PM
i dont know what this means but suspect its the wrong end of the stick

My point is that, whether or not they are "permitted" (your word), people are doing their own research.

Despite this (or perhaps because of it), not everyone thinks conspiracy theories are Amazing and Fun.

john eden
05-07-2017, 04:28 PM
there seems to be a feeling among the bloc sufi identifies here (anti-conspirinaut) that truth is simple straight forward and self-evident and that its arbiter is daddy
again this strikes me as anti democratic. there are dangers (eg pogroms, outbreaks of tb or cowpox etc) but they must be faced and fought not retreated from.
it will likely take at least a couple of generations to get to grips with.

The whole point is that the truth isn't simple, straightforward and self-evident. That is EXACTLY what conspiracy theories try to present - that complex issues can be resolved down to a single source, like a cabal.

luka
05-07-2017, 04:29 PM
the challenge ie where we are, is to learn to live with this vast increase of information, with the opening up of access to information and the opening up of access to the communication of information
obv. much of it (the majority?) inaccurate/misleading
it's the arrow of democracy --------->

luka
05-07-2017, 04:30 PM
tbh i dont think you two know what argument you are trying to present. or at least i certainly dont

luka
05-07-2017, 04:31 PM
if its just i dont like conspiracies then fine. thats like saying i dont like football. i just dont know where youre going with it

john eden
05-07-2017, 04:37 PM
That conspiracy theories have more in common with religion when it comes to explaining the world than a rational, structural critique.

john eden
05-07-2017, 04:39 PM
That at best, they are consumed passively and have very little effect on the world.

That at worst they directly contribute to making the world worse through the rise of fascism (or by intensifying the social base from which fascism emerges).

john eden
05-07-2017, 04:40 PM
Like all culture, the form that conspiracy theories take is determined by the society from which they emerge. It is therefore incredibly rare to see conspiracy theories which promote anything vaguely progressive or liberatory.

DannyL
05-07-2017, 04:41 PM
That at best, they are consumed passively and have very little effect on the world.

.

I think this is kinda your motivation for the thread Luka - conspiracies as entertainment. They're a great, weird laugh etc. - and a lot of conspiracy material is consumed in this manner tbf.

X post with John but spot on, JE.

luka
05-07-2017, 04:42 PM
yes, that you dont like them. thats a perfectly reasonable stance to take. so long as youre not proposing to do anything about it at least.

luka
05-07-2017, 04:43 PM
I think this is kinda your motivation for the thread Luka - conspiracies as entertainment. They're a great, weird laugh etc. - and a lot of conspiracy material is consumed in this manner tbf.

well, perhaps, thats an aspect of it but really theres more to it and its my own fault becasue i keep putting off the writing of the essay id need to write to explain my position

luka
05-07-2017, 04:44 PM
having to explain yourself is the most tiresome thing imaginable, but if you dont you cant complain when youre misunderstood

john eden
05-07-2017, 04:47 PM
Also, we have been here before.

I get that Luka would like a vivid ecosystem of ideas, and that he doesn't want grown ups spoiling him getting stoned and looking at websites with flashing pyramids with eyes in them.

Undeniably there is a weird poetry to some of that which is compelling. But pogroms really aren't a price worth paying for this stuff.

luka
05-07-2017, 04:47 PM
my stance on them, and ive hinted at this numerous times, is that they are instructive in all sorts of ways, not necessarily that they are entertaining in themselves, as has been pointed out here they are more often than not tawdry and depressing

luka
05-07-2017, 04:49 PM
the pogroms, as far as i can recall, were not contemporaneous with internet conspiracy culture

DannyL
05-07-2017, 04:50 PM
the pogroms, as far as i can recall, were not contemporaneous with internet conspiracy culture

But this is: http://rrsoc.org/node/866

john eden
05-07-2017, 04:53 PM
I think that my position extends a bit further than "not liking them". I don't really like football, or peppermint tea, or heavy metal. But generally I will concede that these are my personal tastes and that they don't actually cause harm.


my stance on them, and ive hinted at this numerous times, is that they are instructive in all sorts of ways, not necessarily that they are entertaining in themselves, as has been pointed out here they are more often than not tawdry and depressing

Well you would need to expand on how they are instructive. I've found reading BNP material instructive in the past, but I don't feel the need to defend their existence, or suggest that people should join in with what they are doing by coming up with more theories/policies/whatever.

luka
05-07-2017, 04:54 PM
yes i know but its a major job which is why i have been putting it off but i accept it has to be done to make the conversation worthwhile/ apologies

john eden
05-07-2017, 04:55 PM
But this is: http://rrsoc.org/node/866

and this http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/huge-increase-in-antisemitic-hate-crimes-in-london-as-number-in-uk-reaches-record-level-a3456136.html

luka
05-07-2017, 04:56 PM
But this is: http://rrsoc.org/node/866

1st casualty of war is truth etc etc nothing new there

john eden
05-07-2017, 05:07 PM
1st casualty of war is truth etc etc nothing new there

That's just lazy though. Not every war includes anti-semitism. So what are the factors which mean that this war does? Why are anti-semitic attacks at record levels in the UK? (It's not because Jewish people here have suddenly got a lot more annoying or visible is it?)

DannyL
05-07-2017, 05:11 PM
That's just lazy though.

Yes it is. Ironic coming from the guy advocating that people do their own research upthread. Or that "the man" wasn't permitting them to do their research in some way that hasn't been explained, I forget.

sufi
05-07-2017, 05:20 PM
But this is: http://rrsoc.org/node/866and this http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/huge-increase-in-antisemitic-hate-crimes-in-london-as-number-in-uk-reaches-record-level-a3456136.htmlthese are terrible examples,

the disgusting rise in hate crime seems to afflict all sorts of groups, and is a result of the ugly social forces you mention above, rather than specifically due to antisemitic conspiracy theories, as the article you cite states fairly clearly, no? :rolleyes:

& the rebuttal to the Canary, which i assume is quite correct, is in the context of a highly polarised political discourse, and criticises Hersh who, though he may be barking up the wroing tree in this case, exposed the extremely suspect and partial USGOV narrative about the death of Bin Laden - a "conspiracy theory" that has not been objectively debunked yet, as far as i know.

DannyL
05-07-2017, 05:21 PM
It's evidence for the argument I'm making that conspiratorial thinking actively causes harm, and allows States to cover their actions. Batting it away without "nothing new there" is really lazy. Truth being the first casualty of war is exactly what I'm talking about.

sufi
05-07-2017, 05:22 PM
and i don't think that saying that conspiracy theories serves the right is the end of the story either.
Writing off all conspiracy theories out of hand certainly serves the right, since genuine conspiracies will have tended to be cooked up by the power, no?

sufi
05-07-2017, 05:26 PM
and so, if you're saying that the harm caused by your theoretical misled hordes of conspiranauts being distracted from the real evils of the world, i simply disagree, in that even if a small number of real conspiracies are exposed by inquisitive minds encouraged by this cultural phenomenon, the benefit of that may outweigh what you see as a net disadvantage.
Or are you going to explain how you "Objectively" quantify that?

DannyL
05-07-2017, 05:33 PM
Look at the comments under the Monbiot tweet upthread if you'd like to see how this plays out.

sufi
05-07-2017, 05:46 PM
Look at the comments under the Monbiot tweet upthread if you'd like to see how this plays out.a load of gobshites arguing the toss on an obscure corner of the web. how is that relevant? or did i not get your point?

Mr. Tea
05-07-2017, 05:51 PM
daddy knows best

Ah, only a matter of time before luka brought out his favourite strawman!

Mr. Tea
05-07-2017, 05:56 PM
A classic thread-bumpo from dissensus' anti-conspiranaut faction, who seem to feel the irresistible need to promote conspiracies and assign them to shadowy "groups" and "movements" from the fringes of cyberspace and social media "They are everywhere and getting more and more!"
Luckily our antis are so insightful that only they can perceive the enormous false consciousness that these theoretical conspiranoids are labouring under.
phew, thank goodness for the woke sheeple, where's my laughing crying smiley :crylarf:

Yeah m8 maybe you're right m8, and Aids isn't real, cultural marxists are trying to wipe out the white race and Hilary Clinton really is the ringleader of a global paedo gang. Where's my Alex-Jones-yelling-himself-hoarse emoji?

john eden
05-07-2017, 05:56 PM
and so, if you're saying that the harm caused by your theoretical misled hordes of conspiranauts being distracted from the real evils of the world, i simply disagree, in that even if a small number of real conspiracies are exposed by inquisitive minds encouraged by this cultural phenomenon, the benefit of that may outweigh what you see as a net disadvantage.
Or are you going to explain how you "Objectively" quantify that?

Well you would need to provide some examples of progressive conspiracy theory culture then.

As I said the last time we discussed this, there ARE conspiracies. Hillsborough would be an example.

But the methodology of the Hillsborough campaign is markedly different from how conspiracy theory culture operates.

DannyL
05-07-2017, 05:56 PM
I don't think you get my point.

My point is it's an act of mass murder. The causes of that mass murder and the parties responsible are verifiable. Presenting it as "arguing the toss" hugely cheapens what happened, and presents the event as simply a competition between points of view that are given a false equivalence. Conspiracy narratives aid this process - they help to obscure, and we should ask ourselves who profits by their dissemination.

john eden
05-07-2017, 05:57 PM
a load of gobshites arguing the toss on an obscure corner of the web. how is that relevant? or did i not get your point?

Well are they gobshites or is their view as valid as anyone else's, Dad?

firefinga
05-07-2017, 06:00 PM
Which of the conspiracies being talked bout on here (I think) are NOT permitted? Or has anybody ever been banned by perpetuating any? Plus, as if any conspiracy nut, errrr truther ever stopped believing his "truth" when confronted with stuff others consider more plausible. See, I am also able to promote (mild) relativism.

DannyL
05-07-2017, 06:01 PM
Maybe we could use term "atrocity enablers" instead of gobshites? But I guess that's being somehow oppressive.

sufi
05-07-2017, 06:07 PM
these are your strawmen
Yeah m8 maybe you're right m8, and Aids isn't real, cultural marxists are trying to wipe out the white race and Hilary Clinton really is the ringleader of a global paedo gang. Where's my Alex-Jones-yelling-himself-hoarse-emoji?&
None of the conspiracies being talked bout on here (I think) are NOT permitted. Or has anybody ever been banned by perpetuating any? Plus, as if any conspiracy nut, errrr truther ever stopped believing his "truth" when confronted with stuff others consider more plausible. See, I am also able to promote (mild) relativism.
You have this fantasy of slavering tin-hatted conspiracy theorists, which is cherry picked from the most extreme and disproportionate examples, and used to bully humble souls into silence.

sufi
05-07-2017, 06:11 PM
Well are they gobshites or is their view as valid as anyone else's, Dad?It's important to recognise I think that people talk a lot of old cobblers online. That's not the same as engaging with the real world. Monbiot himself is fairly far out on the tentacles of the MSM, if you're suggesting somehow that this long stream of confused non-sequiturs is a useful discussion then it's off to bed with no telly for you eden.

firefinga
05-07-2017, 06:13 PM
You have this fantasy of slavering tin-hatted conspiracy theorists, which is cherry picked from the most extreme and disproportionate examples

Trust me, I don't have any fantasies regarding conspiracy nuts, and the examples I mentioned are not most extreme, it's the most common ones (except the Nazis on the dark side of the moon bit, I admit that)

john eden
05-07-2017, 06:16 PM
I really do think that the criticism on here is inviting debate rather than trying to shut anybody up.

Fill the gaping void on the pro-conspiracy theory side with something better than "oh well they're not really that bad and you're spoiling our fun" And I'll be all ears.

sufi
05-07-2017, 06:18 PM
Maybe we could use term "atrocity enablers" instead of gobshites? But I guess that's being somehow oppressive.How so? Don't you think that there may be actual forces a little closer to the events that have a real impact, such as armed groups, weapons dealers, rampaging states and non-states, ineffectual diplomats,
You are dignifying these bullshitters with an agency that doesn’t exist, creating the strawman that allows you to pour scorn on the likes of Daniel Morgan, The Chagos Islanders, Gary Webb, ... the list goes on

luka
05-07-2017, 06:19 PM
Ah, only a matter of time before luka brought out his favourite strawman!

its not a strawman. you havent quite understood what it means yet

Mr. Tea
05-07-2017, 06:23 PM
And reading stuff on the internet does not constitute


research.

Mr. Tea
05-07-2017, 06:29 PM
its not a strawman. you havent quite understood what it means yet

It's absolutely a strawman. You appeal, over and over and over, to this idea that I'm in thrall to THEM, to THE MAN. My position is just that it's well to bear in mind the same skepticism you might apply when reading something in the dreaded "MSM" when you ingest information from "alternative" sources, and to recognize that it's extremely easy to be sucked in by anti-establishment rhetoric that appears revolutionary but actually serves the most reactionary causes possible. I mean, fuck, I can't believe I'm having to explain this (again). Gah.

firefinga
05-07-2017, 06:31 PM
And then there is the aspect of conspiracies as a well-working business. Types like Alex Jones are just the tip of the iceberg of a very busy industry.

DannyL
05-07-2017, 06:35 PM
How so? Don't you think that there may be actual forces a little closer to the events that have a real impact, such as armed groups, weapons dealers, rampaging states and non-states, ineffectual diplomats,
You are dignifying these bullshitters with an agency that doesn’t exist, creating the strawman that allows you to pour scorn on the likes of Daniel Morgan, The Chagos Islanders, Gary Webb, ... the list goes on

But their bullshit is ultimately driven by States. Assad has used conspiratorial claims about outside interference to de-legitimise the opposition since before the conflict started, and Russia fights a kind of cyberwar with similar ends, supporting its strategic goals and attacking opponents. The net was flooded with counter-claims about Khan Sheikhoun in the days after the attack, most probably due to the unpredictability of Trump and his authorisation of the attack on Al-Shayrat airbase. This is an interesting account of a Russian troll factory: https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/07/magazine/the-agency.html and there've been several other similar reports, I posted another good piece upthread.

sufi
05-07-2017, 06:40 PM
But their bullshit is ultimately driven by States. Assad has used conspiratorial claims about outside interference to de-legitimise the opposition since before the conflict started, and Russia fights a kind of cyberwar with similar ends, supporting its strategic goals and attacking opponents. The net was flooded with counter-claims about Khan Sheikhoun in the days after the attack, most probably due to the unpredictability of Trump and his authorisation of the attack on Al-Shayrat airbase. This is an interesting account of a Russian troll factory: https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/07/magazine/the-agency.html and there've been several other similar reports, I posted another good piece upthread.ok i think i get you now.
you're saying that all these tweeters responding to Monbiot are state-sponsored trolls, so it's a conspiraceeeeeee :crylarf:

DannyL
05-07-2017, 06:44 PM
The irony had not escaped me.

And not every one of 'em, no. But the lies and denials have a certain appeal to audiences whose first instinct is to hate the West.

sufi
05-07-2017, 06:48 PM
tbf, my bottom line is that i'm intrigued and attracted to a rare issue where i seem not to agree with eden (keeping rank company there john)
if you are prepared to write off all conspiracy theories as meritless, you are perpetuating the work of the genuine conspirators, (as i almost got you to admit on teh other thread i think john.)
I've given lots of good examples whenever you ask for them, but you all (the a-c bloc) seem to be caught in a cycle of "they are CTs so it can't possibly be true because they are CTs", and so your examples tend to be toss
no hint in your dogma that there may be true or false CTs, which would be the first step in admitting the error of your oppressive ways :gun::poop::fire:

sufi
05-07-2017, 06:52 PM
And then there is the aspect of conspiracies as a well-working business. Types like Alex Jones are just the tip of the iceberg of a very busy industry.erm i think you have your iceberg upside down, or else where is the rest of your fantasy monetised conspiracy theory industry then? or is it a secret conspiraceeeee?

firefinga
05-07-2017, 06:55 PM
or is it a secret conspiraceeeee?

The 9/11 truther industry alone. Meetings, DVDs, books - some of which were bestseller etc. etc.

sufi
05-07-2017, 07:05 PM
The 9/11 truther industry alone. Meetings, DVDs, books - some of which were bestseller etc. etc.o is that all? that's a piffling and top-heavy iceberg. I know some of the UK troofers (IRL, as opposed to in your and their online shared fantasies) and they are a motley and skint bunch

firefinga
05-07-2017, 07:10 PM
I know some of the UK troofers and they are a motley and skint bunch

Likely they just made the more savvy truthers the rich ones :crylarf:

sufi
05-07-2017, 07:16 PM
Likely they just made the more savvy truthers the rich ones :crylarf:evidence please?
you see how you pour scorn when faced with actual examples, and then cite your made-up fantasy conspiranauts again :crylarf::(

firefinga
05-07-2017, 07:22 PM
So the bestseller books about the 9/11 conspiracies don't exist? The "truther" dvds don't exist? The chem trail conspiracy doesn't exist? The books about the Illuminati don't exist? Yeah all made up by myself. I see it now, I am a victim of my own conspiracy!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXtQMz1RGNw

And just one other example of the conspiracy industry: Germany's "Kopp - Verlag" publishers, made 10 million euros alone in 2013 with books about well, you guessed it, conspiracies.

luka
05-07-2017, 07:32 PM
tbf, my bottom line is that i'm intrigued and attracted to a rare issue where i seem not to agree with eden (keeping rank company there john)
if you are prepared to write off all conspiracy theories as meritless, you are perpetuating the work of the genuine conspirators, (as i almost got you to admit on teh other thread i think john.)
I've given lots of good examples whenever you ask for them, but you all (the a-c bloc) seem to be caught in a cycle of "they are CTs so it can't possibly be true because they are CTs", and so your examples tend to be toss
no hint in your dogma that there may be true or false CTs, which would be the first step in admitting the error of your oppressive ways :gun::poop::fire:

theres basically no point. they arent' discussing theyre shutting down discussion. its a circular thing where conspiracy theory is bad and if its not bad its not really a conspiracy theory so you cant get anywhere with them total waste of time if people argue in bad faith

luka
05-07-2017, 07:35 PM
And reading stuff on the internet does not constitute

.

of course it does.

firefinga
05-07-2017, 07:35 PM
they arent' discussing theyre shutting down discussion.

That's just another conspiracy theory perpetuated by the likes of Sufi and Luka.

luka
05-07-2017, 07:37 PM
It's absolutely a strawman. You appeal, over and over and over, to this idea that I'm in thrall to THEM, to THE MAN. My position is just that it's well to bear in mind the same skepticism you might apply when reading something in the dreaded "MSM" when you ingest information from "alternative" sources, and to recognize that it's extremely easy to be sucked in by anti-establishment rhetoric that appears revolutionary but actually serves the most reactionary causes possible. I mean, fuck, I can't believe I'm having to explain this (again). Gah.

i suggest you stop trying to 'explain' things

sufi
05-07-2017, 07:56 PM
So the bestseller books about the 9/11 conspiracies don't exist? The "truther" dvds don't exist? The chem trail conspiracy doesn't exist? The books about the Illuminati don't exist? Yeah all made up by myself. I see it now, I am a victim of my own conspiracy

And just one other example of the conspiracy industry: Germany's "Kopp - Verlag" publishers, made 10 million euros alone in 2013 with books about well, you guessed it, conspiracies.
But 911 was a conspiracy, so of course there are lots of books about it. Murderers conspired to blow up planes and buildings.Are you saying that the alternative theories have too much weight, or money? I think you are bigging them up out of proportion. With your talk of icebergs. I think you got lost on the internet.

firefinga
05-07-2017, 08:06 PM
But 911 was a conspiracy, so of course there are lots of books about it. Murderers conspired to blow up planes and buildings.

You know very well I was referring to the "alternative theories" regarding 9/11 aka "truthers".


Here's something that is supposed to help against the chemical trail conspiracy:

https://www.amazon.de/Oz-Orgonite-Akasha-Orgonit-Sockel-Kupferstangen/dp/B016Z3PO2E

There's plenty of other stuff available in that vain (of course, it's just imagined by me :crylarf:)

firefinga
05-07-2017, 08:15 PM
There is even a German ex minister among the truther money makers:

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andreas_von_B%C3%BClow#Die_CIA_und_der_11._Septemb er._Internationaler_Terror_und_die_Rolle_der_Gehei mdienste

Sorry, it's in German only. In short, former minister of science and technology writes a book bout cia/mossad conspiracies regarding 9/11 and enters the bestseller lists, makes 7 print runs.

Mr. Tea
05-07-2017, 08:15 PM
of course it does.

No, it really doesn't. Research means finding stuff out for yourself. That's fundamentally not the same thing as absorbing information that's been collated and processed - or made up - by someone else. Doctors all over the world now shudder at the words "I've done my research..." from a patient who then attempts to woke them up about a simple home-made cure for cancer that's been hushed up by Big Pharma, or the terrible side-effects of some widely used and universally safe medicine.

But just reading a load of research done by other people is called a metastudy or meta-analysis, and over-reliance on it is a major problem in the social sciences. Look up (or research!) the 'woozle effect' if you want to learn more - it's actually fascinating. And while there *can* be useful information derived from meta-analysis, *if* the person doing it is aware of the difference between that and original research, most people aren't aware of the distinction and have no real way of distinguishing between reliable and unreliable sources. In fact many people have such an instinctive distrust of anything that smells of The Man or The Establishment (e.g. research published by a public university or government-funded laboratory or research organization) that they go completely the other way and place implicit trust in any person or group that seems fringe or maverick. And these people are very likely to be some combination of mercenary charlatans, awful reactionaries and shills for actual conspiracies, such as the petrochemical or private healthcare lobbies. I mean look at Breitbart, for fuck's sake.

sufi
05-07-2017, 08:15 PM
Fake news has cooked the critical faculties and blocked up the filters. People just come up with extreme vilification about mass mureders and crackpots and so on cos they cant be bothered to exercose moral judgement.
I mean eden (good to cite him while he's probably commuting;)) mentioned Hillsborough, a real event. But it's not good at all that it takes the exposure of a coverup of this magnitude to get any sort of acknowledgement.

luka
05-07-2017, 08:41 PM
No, it really doesn't. Research means finding stuff out for yourself. That's fundamentally not the same thing as absorbing information that's been collated and processed - or made up - by someone else. Doctors all over the world now shudder at the words "I've done my research..." from a patient who then attempts to woke them up about a simple home-made cure for cancer that's been hushed up by Big Pharma, or the terrible side-effects of some widely used and universally safe medicine.

But just reading a load of research done by other people is called a metastudy or meta-analysis, and over-reliance on it is a major problem in the social sciences. Look up (or research!) the 'woozle effect' if you want to learn more - it's actually fascinating. And while there *can* be useful information derived from meta-analysis, *if* the person doing it is aware of the difference between that and original research, most people aren't aware of the distinction and have no real way of distinguishing between reliable and unreliable sources. In fact many people have such an instinctive distrust of anything that smells of The Man or The Establishment (e.g. research published by a public university or government-funded laboratory or research organization) that they go completely the other way and place implicit trust in any person or group that seems fringe or maverick. And these people are very likely to be some combination of mercenary charlatans, awful reactionaries and shills for actual conspiracies, such as the petrochemical or private healthcare lobbies. I mean look at Breitbart, for fuck's sake.

Babbling on like a lunatic as usual. Imagine mr tea wanted to learn about literature beyond his usual fare of Terry pratchett and lovecraft but had no access to a library. He could go on the internet and read reams and reams of primary material from piers ploughman to the cantbury tales from hamlet to the prelude

luka
05-07-2017, 08:42 PM
For fucks sake (to coin a phrase)

luka
05-07-2017, 08:46 PM
And lots of people i know, including my mother and a cousin of mine have had to educate their gps, essentially diagnosed themselves, for which the gp was very grateful (both have very unusual rare conditions)

Mr. Tea
05-07-2017, 09:01 PM
Babbling on like a lunatic as usual. Imagine mr tea wanted to learn about literature beyond his usual fare of Terry pratchett and lovecraft but had no access to a library. He could go on the internet and read reams and reams of primary material from piers ploughman to the cantbury tales from hamlet to the prelude

Reading for pleasure is 'research' now? According to what definition?

You're just embarrassing yourself at this point. Research is fundamentally a concept from science and by your own admission you hate science and know nothing about it. You telling me what research is would be like me lecturing you on the history of urban music.

sufi
05-07-2017, 09:15 PM
Wonderfully ironic to see the ranting fabulists lining up to have a crack at the conspiracy theorists, while spouting un-evidenced poppycock about chemtrails & home made cures and conspiracies of maverick charlatans while accusing all and sundry of being too thick to see the truth,

Hilarious nonsense about "meta-resaerch" https://duckduckgo.com/?q=desk+research&t=ffab&ia=about~https://duckduckgo.com/?q=SEVCONDARY+RESARCH&t=ffab&ia=about if it wasnt so nastily patronising.

sufi
05-07-2017, 09:23 PM
... while entirely failing to contribute anything positive to the discussion, or evidence anything about "most doctors", "these people" etc

luka
05-07-2017, 09:24 PM
Reading for pleasure is 'research' now? According to what definition?

You're just embarrassing yourself at this point. Research is fundamentally a concept from science and by your own admission you hate science and know nothing about it. You telling me what research is would be like me lecturing you on the history of urban music.

are you actually insane? you do realise people study literature in universities?

sufi
05-07-2017, 09:41 PM
Conspiracy theorists are everywhere


a tireless campaign over four years by the two sisters both to find out what happened to their younger brother and to make sure that the world knew. Revelations along the way led to the jailing of one police officer and one community support officer for misconduct in public office and the dismissal of two other constables. ...

They got this far, says Moores, because the authorities originally misjudged them. “They thought these two sisters were going to be fobbed off with a few words. We were not the foreigners that they thought. Maybe we can tell them what to believe and they will go away. But we fought for this. We were there all the time. Every meeting they asked us to go to. We read every report.”

And it’s not over. The sisters claim the council also failed Ebrahimi and they are calling it to account too. “The main reason the police thought this was because the council said that Bijan was the troublemaker,” explains Moores. “They could have moved him to a better place. But they blamed him for the trouble because he wasn’t white.”

“We knew their action was pure racism,” says Khayatian. “And that encouraged us to fight for it."https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jul/05/it-was-pure-racism-the-family-of-bijan-ebrahimi-on-their-fight-for-answers

Mr. Tea
05-07-2017, 10:00 PM
are you actually insane? you do realise people study literature in universities?

Lolwhut. Is that what 'studying literature' means? Reading, and that's it? If you're synthesizing new ideas then yes, that's research. You remember my girlfriend has a PhD in David Jones, right? That's not the same thing as learning about Shakespeare by reading books on Shakespeare, or learning about cancer by reading about cancer. You're using 'research' as a synonym for 'learning'. Research means coming up with new knowledge.

Mr. Tea
05-07-2017, 10:01 PM
Wonderfully ironic to see the ranting fabulists lining up to have a crack at the conspiracy theorists, while spouting un-evidenced poppycock about chemtrails & home made cures and conspiracies of maverick charlatans while accusing all and sundry of being too thick to see the truth,

Hilarious nonsense about "meta-resaerch" https://duckduckgo.com/?q=desk+research&t=ffab&ia=about~https://duckduckgo.com/?q=SEVCONDARY+RESARCH&t=ffab&ia=about if it wasnt so nastily patronising.

What are you even talking about? SEVCONDARY RESEARCH? Have you had too much covfefe today?

luka
05-07-2017, 10:14 PM
You cant rewrite the dictionary just cos you feel like it you nutjob.

luka
05-07-2017, 10:15 PM
The problem is you're not very bright or rather the problem is you refuse to accept you're not very bright which means you don't listen which means you remain not very bright, that is to say, dim

Mr. Tea
05-07-2017, 11:05 PM
Being called dim by someone who can't distinguish between learning and research, that's a good one. Did you think you'd "discovered" France the first time you ever went to France, too?

And whose dictionary are you appealing to here? Is it Daddy's, by any chance?

Mr. Tea
05-07-2017, 11:08 PM
I've also enjoyed being told I'm 'not making a positive contribution to the thread' by someone whose tactic of first resort is cheap mockery and ad-homs.


(keeping rank company there john)


Are you quite sure you're being enough a sanctimonious prick?

luka
05-07-2017, 11:34 PM
i preferred the personable mild mannered humble tea. can we have that one back please? wht have you done with him?

luka
05-07-2017, 11:35 PM
being obnoxious doesnt suit you.

sadmanbarty
05-07-2017, 11:37 PM
Are you quite sure you're being enough a sanctimonious prick?

Bants

Leo
05-07-2017, 11:39 PM
well, that escalated quickly.

luka
05-07-2017, 11:55 PM
I cant help thinking of when droid reached out to tea to ask if he was alright lol classic dissensus moment but also are you alright cos you never used to be so obnoxious. I know i can be but I've sort of calmed down over the years whereas youve gone the other way.
Stress? Drugs? Drink? Drink can seriously destabilise mood I've found even if you're not a binge drinker

john eden
06-07-2017, 10:22 AM
If this had been a music thread, where I was saying that all hip hop was shit after "36 Chambers" I would rightly have been taken to task for making a sweeping generalisation. But by page 8, people would have posted about a whole bunch of links to hip hop tunes to prove me wrong.

On this thread, the only thing the pro-CS people have posted about as a concrete example is this:


But 911 was a conspiracy, so of course there are lots of books about it. Murderers conspired to blow up planes and buildings.Are you saying that the alternative theories have too much weight, or money? I think you are bigging them up out of proportion. With your talk of icebergs. I think you got lost on the internet.

Yes, 911 was a conspiracy by Al-Qaeda to kill American people by running planes into significant buildings. We can get bogged down by semantics about whether or not that is still a theory.

The conspiracy theories I am talking about are the alternative explanations which involve explosions inside the building, the planes being a mirage, the deaths of thousands of people somehow being directly ordered by the american government etc. A subcultural field which thrives on coming up with the most "creative" and wide ranging explanations as possible.

And so to Hillsborough. Hillsborough was a conspiracy between elements of the ruling class (top cops, politicians, the media) to demonise working class football fans in order to obscure the police and Hillsborough ground management's culpability in the death of nearly 100 innocent football fans.

The painstaking quest for justice by the victims' families has taken nearly 30 years.

The question for you lot is, would the approach taken by 911 truthers, illuminati chasers, David Icke lizard cabal types, etc have helped or hindered the campaign for justice?

I'm going to take a wild stab in the dark which is that Sufi and Luka love the idea of being all renegade and want there to be a thriving zone of mad ideas that make fusty old rationalists very uneasy. But they can't post any concrete examples of conspiracy theories (as they are widely understood) or theoreticians, or websites. Because they know that either these things are a load of bollocks or that they are connected to some properly dodgy shit.

Luka asked me upthread whether I was doing anything about this. And the answer to that is having this discussion is doing something about it. And despite all the teenage whining about shutting down discussion and censorship, this is actually quite a good grown up discussion where people can't just say "well that's just your opinion maaaaaaaan".

I also support the following organisations who I believe are explicitly or implicitly trying to counteract bullshit conspiracy theorising:

Rationalist Press Association
Humanists UK
Novara Media
Housmans Bookshop (by buying books there, but also through helping to fund their renovations a while back)

None of this lot are perfect.

Also if I am out and about and I see a 911 truther sticker on a lamp post or in a pub toilet I tear them down as I would with a fash sticker.

DannyL
06-07-2017, 10:43 AM
Good post John. I laughed a little at Sufi's comments that we'd somehow chosen the "wrong" examples - wrong because they collapse the waveform of wacky theorising and "is it/isn't true" YOU CAN NEVAH KNOW 4 SURE into events involving real dead people and all the grief and horror that entails. It reminds me of martial arts demos I've seen where the instructor gets clocked and chastises the student for attacking him the "wrong way".

it's probably worth mentioning that false flag/conspiracy reasoning has become a kind of default for a lot of people - a stand in for actually thinking. There are some in circulation about the London Bridge attacks and Grenfell Tower. Apparently the LB attacks were "very convenient" for the Tories. I don't see this as a celebration of human creativity and ingenuity, more the opposite - rank stupidity.

sadmanbarty
06-07-2017, 11:10 AM
If this had been a music thread, where I was saying that all hip hop was shit after "36 Chambers" I would rightly have been taken to task for making a sweeping generalisation. But by page 8, people would have posted about a whole bunch of links to hip hop tunes to prove me wrong.

On this thread, the only thing the pro-CS people have posted about as a concrete example is this:

I'm on the anti-conspiracy theory side of this argument, but the Protocol of Sevres and parts of COINTELPRO are examples of real life examples of the sorts of things conspiracy theorists claim are happening.

john eden
06-07-2017, 11:29 AM
I'm on the anti-conspiracy theory side of this argument, but the Protocol of Sevres and parts of COINTELPRO are examples of real life examples of the sorts of things conspiracy theorists claim are happening.

Yup. The recent Spycops scandal in the UK would be another example (which again has a victims' campaign methodology which is more similar to Hillsborough than to David Icke).

But these are all quite boring compared to what Luka was aiming for, I think.

Mr. Tea
06-07-2017, 12:31 PM
i preferred the personable mild mannered humble tea. can we have that one back please? wht have you done with him?

You and sufi might start by engaging with some of the ideas I'm putting forward, rather than just flinging insults at me.

And I'm still waiting for you to explain who or what 'Daddy' is supposed to be. You're the one who's always banging on about him.

luka
06-07-2017, 01:00 PM
Some things you need to work out for yourself

Mr. Tea
06-07-2017, 01:09 PM
But these are all quite boring compared to what Luka was aiming for, I think.

I probably shouldn't have used the word 'boring' to describe certain conspiracy theories a few pages ago, because they're the theories that anyone who cares about democracy, transparent government, police accountability, civil liberties and so on should be extremely interested in. JE's example of the Hillsborough inquiry is the biggest one I can think of involving the UK police force but there are tons of others, from the Jean Charles de Menezes shooting to the framing of Barry George for Jill Dando's murder. There's the covering up of massive child sex abuse by organizations such as the Catholic Church and BBC, Blair's sexed-up WMDs dossier... I'm sure if we wanted to we could spend the rest of the day listing 'conspiracy theories' that are definitely or probably true. (Perhaps the cleverest is the AGW denial conspiracy, which works by accusing its opponents of orchestrating their own conspiracy.)

But yeah, they're 'boring' in that they don't involve aliens, pyramids, mind control beams, the Knights Templar or radically revising the known laws of physics.

It would probably be useful to distinguish in some way between 'conspiracy hypotheses' and 'conspiracy fantasies'.

john eden
06-07-2017, 01:33 PM
I was expecting the wiki page about this to be terrible but the first bit is very good at unpicking what I am getting at in terms of real conspiracies vs conspiracy theory:


A conspiracy theory is an explanation of an event or situation that invokes a conspiracy without warrant, generally one involving an illegal or harmful act carried out by government or other powerful actors. Conspiracy theories often produce hypotheses that contradict the prevailing understanding of history or simple facts. The term is a derogatory one.

According to the political scientist Michael Barkun, conspiracy theories rely on the view that the universe is governed by design, and embody three principles: nothing happens by accident, nothing is as it seems, and everything is connected. Another common feature is that conspiracy theories evolve to incorporate whatever evidence exists against them, so that they become, as Barkun writes, a closed system that is unfalsifiable, and therefore "a matter of faith rather than proof".

The theory about the Hillsborough disaster cover up being a conspiracy carries more weight than theory that chemtrails are a cabal-lead conspiracy to harm the population.

As do the theory of gravity and the theory of evolution.

droid
06-07-2017, 02:03 PM
Ive said it many time before. The problem is not conspiracy theory, its conspiracy thinking.

DannyL
06-07-2017, 02:17 PM
This is a great article that fits with the line of thought you guys are going down:

https://www.lobster-magazine.co.uk/articles/l29consp.htm

Bit old now but still worth reading

Slothrop
06-07-2017, 02:26 PM
I love how they have categories called things like "9/11 conspiracies" and "Area 51", and one of them is just called "Japan".

David Sylvian was "disappeared" and replaced by a surgically altered CIA agent in 1979. Gentlemen Take Polaroids and Tin Drum are actually full of coded messages to their deep-cover sleeper agents embedded in the post-punk scene.

I appreciate that the thread has moved on between me thinking of that gag and me getting a chance to post it, but I'm buggered if I'm letting it go to waste.

john eden
06-07-2017, 03:23 PM
This is a great article that fits with the line of thought you guys are going down:

https://www.lobster-magazine.co.uk/articles/l29consp.htm

Bit old now but still worth reading

I will give that a go later. I think Lobster used to use the term "para-politics" to distance itself from conspiracy theorists. It's been a while since I read it but I remember it as being a good example of how you could deal with stuff like P2 (for example) without descending into conspiracy theories. It was heavy on evidence and light on speculation iirc.

firefinga
06-07-2017, 05:19 PM
it's probably worth mentioning that false flag/conspiracy reasoning has become a kind of default for a lot of people - a stand in for actually thinking.

Yes, absolutely - it has reached mass status. In germany, there is the following guy: Xavier Naidoo

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xavier_Naidoo

Most of the info about him is in German, which makes things on an English speaking board a bit difficult, but he is a prime example how some of that stuff has become an "alternative mainstream" today.

In short, this guy is a mainstream figure in music who had several top ten hits in Germany, was supposed to be the German candidate for Eurovision Song contest, was on TV shows etc. Born in 1972, he reached sucess in the late 1990s - his music is almost unbearable "Neo Soul" and "Soft Rap". Anyways (ok, most unbearbale for me, millions of listeners see it differently). Around 2010 something snapped with the guy - he saw the light. Started out with the good ole "9/11 was an inside job" he later moved on to the German version of the "Freeman/Souvereign Citizen"-movement "Reichsbürger" who believe the Germany of today is a firm/company controlled by some globalist council and that the "Real Germany" is that of between 1871 and 1918. His messianic nature drove him to release a single in April 2017 bearing the title "Marionetten" (translation: puppets) which lyrics include references to "Pizzagate". In several interviews he stated Pizzagate is absolutely real. Several music/TV stations refused to play this single which of course reinforced his believes he was absolutley right, that the globalist pedo ring was out there trying to shut him up.

Mr. Tea
06-07-2017, 05:37 PM
Several music/TV stations refused to play this single which of course reinforced his believes he was absolutley right, that the globalist pedo ring was out there trying to shut him up.

Great example of the paranoiac's unfalsifiable thinking:

* stations play his single --> "The Truth cannot be contained!"
* stations don't play his single --> "See how They silence me!"

vimothy
07-07-2017, 10:54 AM
This argument aside, it's interesting to ask: if "conspiracy thinking" is, in some sense, becoming more prevalent - why is that?

firefinga
07-07-2017, 11:11 AM
it's interesting to ask: if "conspiracy thinking" is, in some sense, becoming more prevalent - why is that?

Many of those conspiracies seem to be a surrogate for religion, respectively for one basic function of religion: to give meaning/direction/sometimes explanation. Instead of an almighty god pulling the strings, it's the Illuminati/globalist council/freemasons etc etc

john eden
07-07-2017, 11:34 AM
Many of those conspiracies seem to be a surrogate for religion, respectively for one basic function of religion: to give meaning/direction/sometimes explanation. Instead of an almighty god pulling the strings, it's the Illuminati/globalist council/freemasons etc etc

I think this is true but it is also partly down to the internet - the ability to disseminate vast quantities of information and also the creation of echo chambers which reinforce certain ideas. It's a lot easier to find out about this stuff now, and also to forge communities around it.

More generally I think lots of people do feel that their lives are subject to forces outside their control. And they are right to feel that, because most people's standard of living has decreased over the last 10, 20 years. In terms of their pay, the support they receive from the state, the general population's mental health, etc. Their lives have got worse regardless of how intelligent they are, how hard they have worked etc.

firefinga
07-07-2017, 11:42 AM
More generally I think lots of people do feel that their lives are subject to forces outside their control. And they are right to feel that, because most people's standard of living has decreased over the last 10, 20 years. In terms of their pay, the support they receive from the state, the general population's mental health, etc. Their lives have got worse regardless of how intelligent they are, how hard they have worked etc.

Yes, as in "I have played by the rules all my life, but get no reward, so the rules must be foul, and who is making the rules anyways"?

droid
07-07-2017, 11:45 AM
Assimilating information is difficult. Judging credibility, reliability of sources, likelihood of honesty, differing accounts, accounting for institutional and personal bias... these are learned skills that require knowledge, experience, intellectual honesty & a willingness to doubt oneself and examine one's own biases. People aren't trained for this outside academia, politics and media. Combine this fact with a torrent of new information sources & a breakdown in trust in media...

Mr. Tea
07-07-2017, 02:45 PM
Some things you need to work out for yourself

Then I would guess that it's a fairly typical stoner-paranoiac's insistence that anyone who doesn't share his worldview is necessarily in thrall to the nameless They who run the world, or at the very least The Establishment - the government, the 'MSM' and so on. Though no doubt you're going to tell me I'm embarrassingly, hilariously wrong, because nothing gives you more pleasure than the idea that you understand something that other people don't get.

What's frustrating is that you can be funny and insightful, but the luka persona is at its least attractive when you let your arrogance get the better of you. (I say persona, because you're not actually like this in private correspondence or face-to-face.) Like a few weeks ago when you were right up on your high (or drunk) horse and banging on about how no-one here, apart from Sufi of Arabia, apparently, has been 'further east than Greece', because it tickles you to imagine that everyone apart from you is a normie, a sheeple, a dunderheaded conformist. Basically the sort of adolescent wank that Sam Kriss has somehow made a career out of. (I was going to point out at the time that I've been to several parts of the Middle East, including territory controlled by Hezbollah, but I thought either it would lead to a pissing contest or you'd simply ignore it and carry on regardless with your fantasy that none of us has ever left the country except for a package holiday to Spain, or to visit the obviously boring techno clubs in the obviously boring city of Berlin that you've never been to.)

What's ironic is that this attitude is also de rigeur among the trenchcoated, sword-collecting nerd community that you put so much effort into demonstratively despising. Your Matrix obsession is another point of crossover here, of course.

craner
07-07-2017, 07:24 PM
He's in Paris with Cath celebrating her birthday. I'm sure he will enjoy your reply on his return, Tea. Everybody else is already buying their beer and pizza for this one.

Mr. Tea
07-07-2017, 10:59 PM
He's in Paris with Cath celebrating her birthday. I'm sure he will enjoy your reply on his return, Tea. Everybody else is already buying their beer and pizza for this one.

I hope they're having a great time and he isn't tempted to check up on us reprobates while he's on holiday.

And but so. I'm sure he realises I wouldn't have written so much if I didn't care or thought he was some run of the mill internet nutter or anything like that.

luka
13-07-2017, 02:09 PM
My interest in conspiracy theory has nothing to do with the extent to which I ‘believe’ in any given conspiracy theory. I don’t consider myself to be a conspiracy theorist although I’ve certainly felt the dark pull of paranoia and I don’t underestimate its power, its danger or its seductiveness.

I do, for what it’s worth, believe power to operate conspiratorially to a large extent, and in that sense am able to accept the illuminati, or the reptilians, as broad, crude but functional metaphors to describe the power elite. Power is in some sense a conspiracy against everyone outside of its circle.
So in that sense, and again we are talking really quite broadly, I believe conspiracy theory captures something about the reality of human society. Groups emerge and rise to dominance and will go to extraordinary lengths to maintain that dominance. What you see enacted in the internal dynamics of organised crime is what is hidden but no less brutal and uncompromising in the internal dynamics of any other hierarchy, be it political, corporate or what have you. There is a huge amount of art that explores this field. A lot of Stanley Kubrick is about this. A lot of The Wire was about this. And of course there’s a ton of scholarly work and investigative journalism you can sift through. The existence of conspiracies, current and historic, is uncontroversial. (as we all agree) I don’t believe there to be one overarching group which controls all things. There are, plainly, a number of groups which are hugely powerful, and some or all, of these groups converge around certain shared interests, and collaborate, in secret. Again, this is common knowledge and uncontroversial.

Societies are machines but much of the moving parts are hidden from view. We are told those parts don’t exist but you can’t understand how the machine functions just by looking at what is on display. You can’t follow cause through to effect. You have to extrapolate, and at some point, due to the amount of obfuscation, lies and misdirection in play, you have to make guesses. James Ellroy novels are about this hidden half of power and how it operates.

One of the things I find so fascinating about the conspiracy theory culture, is the way it sheds light on the way we fill in the blank spaces of the map. We project our fears and our fantasies onto those blank spaces. Our fears and fantasies are usually tawdry, lurid and irrational but they are ours and seeing them on display is useful, and, to my mind, extremely interesting. The internet is laying bare the collective unconscious and it is as fascinating as it is horrifying. Recoiling from it won’t make it disappear. Repressing it won’t make it go away. These are things which need to be worked through, if I can slip into therapy jargon briefly.

Nobody, not even the heads of secret services, are working with anything like a full data set. No one can see the full picture. Everybody is groping a different part of the elephant. The way data is assembled into a world view, and how near-identical data inputs can form into radically different world-pictures is, I want to keep using the word fascinating, because it is fascinating. In fact no one is as famously paranoid as the heads of secret services. Read up on them and you will see what I mean.

I consider it to be hubristic to assume that one has a better grasp on reality than anyone else. This is the basis of my railing against ‘common sense’ which is just an unwillingness to examine underlying and often unconscious assumptions.

The news comes down a very small number of pipelines. It is like oil or gas in that regard. And yet people construct such different narratives from that limited amount of ‘raw data.’ Why is that? I have no patience for the trite, smug, patronising dismissals of people on this forum. It can’t be explained away as easily as you’d like it to be. It’s a real force in our culture (in world culture in fact, not just in the west) and yes, as we have been reading a lot about recently, it has been ‘weaponised’ (to use a vogueish word)

It helps to understand its allure from the inside. It thrives on the ambiguity of the uncertain and the unknown. You can’t wish away this ambiguity. It exists. It is a crucial part of being human and it is amplified by propaganda, by secret services, by the media and so on and so forth. It is a corollary of being able to lie. Horses presumably can’t. Humans do, habitually. If you take all official pronouncements at face value you are a naïf. To feel the biting point of a conspiracy theory, where the alternative presentation of the ‘facts’ (as they are commonly understood) starts to seem as plausible as the official version is essential to grasping the appeal. The vertigo of that. Allowing the anomalies in any account to hold their full force. To be able to be poised in that ambiguity, without toppling, is a useful experience.

It is the basis of imagination. To turn the wheel of the kaleidoscope and have the particles cohere in a completely new pattern. If you cannot do this, and at will, then you are only partially human. I don’t claim that all, or even more than a handful, of conspiracy mongers are terribly imaginative. As I have said, a lot of it is a crude projection of tawdry fears and fantasies. But even in its most debased and tawdry forms there is something very interesting going on. It is very rarely, virtually never, that a conspiracy is made out of whole cloth. It is rather a collective mythos, a patchwork quilt. So you get to see this and trace this, really in real time. The participants build on a number of foundational myths or stories. Why do these take hold? Why does, for example, the ancient astronaut myth resonate? But it does, and the degree of convergence among all proponents of ancient astronaut myth is startling. There is very little divergence from Zecharia Sitchin and von Danniken. The idea is to contribute to a pre-existing universe. In that sense it is like writing for Marvel comics, for example. There has to be some degree of continuity. That collective myth-making and tacit collaboration tells us a lot about how society works. If you can be bothered thinking about these things you can learn from them. Being dismissive and condescending strikes me as the least useful and least interesting of all the possible responses to this stuff. I hope that goes some way to explaining my attitude towards this discussion and why I occasionally lapse into irritability and/or dismissiveness.

luka
13-07-2017, 02:38 PM
the purpose of this thread was to see if it was possible to weave our own thread into that mythos which i thought would be more interesting and educational than rehashing this conversation for the nth time but never mind. i guess people enjoy rehashing this conversation.

craner
13-07-2017, 07:04 PM
That perfectly explains why I enjoy Killah Priest so much.

Mr. Tea
13-07-2017, 08:28 PM
The existence of conspiracies, current and historic, is uncontroversial. (as we all agree)

OK, then we are, to an extent, on the same page. It's just a bit odd that you feel the need to contradict me so often and so vociferously when we largely agree on the fundamentals. I wonder if it's mainly a question of language and style rather than content.


The internet is laying bare the collective unconscious and it is as fascinating as it is horrifying.

Laying it bare, yes, but also playing a huge role in shaping it in the first place - or rather, reshaping it, from one year to the next.


I consider it to be hubristic to assume that one has a better grasp on reality than anyone else. This is the basis of my railing against ‘common sense’ which is just an unwillingness to examine underlying and often unconscious assumptions.

Now this is where I have to disagree. I don't think it's hubristic for me to think I have a better grasp on reality than someone who thinks global warming is a con perpetrated by the Chinese state, or that vaccines cause autism. I'm happy to accept that there are many things I don't know, and that even that some things I think I know are probably false, but the relativism of worldview you're talking about cannot lead anywhere but madness. I cannot accept that the statement "The Earth is 6,000 years old" is equivalent to, or just as useful, or just as good, as the statement "The Earth is some billions of years old". I don't think "The Earth is flat" is on an equal footing with "The Earth is roughly spherical", or, for that matter, "The Holocaust is a Jewish hoax" is on an equal footing with "The Holocaust was a real event".

What's interesting is the extent to which this "Nothing is True..." gambit is being used, and with an undeniable degree of success, by forces in world politics - the very real-life conspiracies you allude to - which are overwhelmingly reactionary in nature. This is coming simultaneously from the well-oiled alt-right lie machine that helped put Donald Trump in the White House, and the constant stream of dezinformatsiya emanating from their opposite numbers in the Kremlin and their various fronts and organs. It seems pretty obvious to me that placing some sort of value in empiricism and objective truth is likely to be a good weapon for counteracting all this. You don't have to make it the only thing that matters to you, but at least not dismissing it out of hand might be wise at this point.

Basically, much of what you've written here rings true, although you lose me again when you go all "if you can't rearrange matter, force and spacetime at will through your Third Eye like I can, then you're not as good as me" - that stuff just reminds me of zhao at his most pompous and risible. It's also ironic given your constant railing against smugness, hubris, condescension and so on, and just makes me want to say physician, heal thyself. (Please don't take that as an attack on imagination per se - just a recognition that it is by amplifying and manipulating the public's imagination that so many conspiracies are perpetrated in the first place, and it's only by causing these lies to snag on the hard, sharp rock of something real that they can eventually be unravelled. You can't fight them just by using your own imagination in the opposite direction.)

luka
13-07-2017, 08:36 PM
ok

Mr. Tea
13-07-2017, 08:36 PM
ok

Oh come on, you could at least post a "didn't real, lol" gif!

luka
13-07-2017, 09:33 PM
i was just depressingly sure i would get a response from you that looked exactly like that one did. lazily quoting huge chunks of text and giving rote responses. it gets me down.

DannyL
13-07-2017, 09:43 PM
I do, for what it’s worth, believe power to operate conspiratorially to a large extent, and in that sense am able to accept the illuminati, or the reptilians, as broad, crude but functional metaphors to describe the power elite. Power is in some sense a conspiracy against everyone outside of its circle.



The essay I posted above endorses this pov, and it makes a lot of sense. I agree with it, broadly. I differ - I think I'm largely going to restate what Tea said, only without his scientific orientation.

I guess where we'd differ is in the attitude towards verifiable truth - I think that someone actually pulled that trigger, dropped that bomb and in some cases, it's possible to uncover who this is. I don't want to be forever "poised in ambiguity" to use your phrase. I want the waveform to collapse and a truth to be uncovered, rather than to hover forever in a cloud of not-knowing. It depends on what your intentions are. I'd like the truth to be told about a number of atrocities and injustices, so I can't rest in an intoxicating "neither/neither" to use Austin Spare's phrase. It depends on what you are committed to, what you've made choices about.

I agree that conspiracies can be fascinating and yeah, they tell us something about humans, and our weird psychology. But as they increasingly becomes part of what-passes-for normal political discourses my fascination diminishes and my frustration grows.

DannyL
13-07-2017, 09:51 PM
the purpose of this thread was to see if it was possible to weave our own thread into that mythos which i thought would be more interesting and educational than rehashing this conversation for the nth time but never mind. i guess people enjoy rehashing this conversation.

Give it a go then, but I find it hard to think of a political reality weirder than the one we inhabit.

Have you read Peter Pomerantsev, Luka? You should try and read his "Nothing is True and Everything is Possible". It's about modern Russia, Putin, Russia Today etc. and it gives you a sense of what's it like to actually live in that intellectual vertigo, to be right in the midst of it, and at points, engaged in its manufacture. It's wide-ranging as well, it looks at how this relativism plays out in many areas and what its roots might be.

DannyL
13-07-2017, 09:57 PM
Your post above very much puts me in mind of Pynchon also, esp. Gravity's Rainbow and The Crying of Lot 49. He avoids the final collapse into the real in the latter by ending the narrative. In the former, he avoids it by (literally) ending the narrator. Slothrop fades into non-existence.

Mr. Tea
13-07-2017, 10:02 PM
i was just depressingly sure i would get a response from you that looked exactly like that one did. lazily quoting huge chunks of text and giving rote responses. it gets me down.

I quoted three lines. Feel free to engage with what I've written rather than playing the enlightened-master-wearily-trying-to-educate-a-swineherd role that's surely as rote by now as anything I've put down here.

luka
13-07-2017, 10:10 PM
I want the waveform to collapse and a truth to be uncovered, rather than to hover forever in a cloud of not-knowing.

I'm not disputing the desirability of this so much as I'm pointing out how difficult, and to all practical purposes, impossible in many cases, this actually is, particularly for people (peons) in our position. i think the desire can lead us to reach for certainty when it's not there (and this tendency can be and is exploited by Authority.) it's about the human propensity to lie (and fantasise). this uncertainty is one of the fundamental conditions we operate under. there's a balance of probability of course, and this can stand in perfectly adequately for certainty in most cases.

the book sounds interesting. i haven't read it and i will buy it whenever it next deigns to manifest itself in a 2nd hand bookshop. i would like to note though that you are concerned with a few very specific cases and something like ancient astronaut theory has (as far as I know) nothing to do with Russian interference in Syria or what have you.

DannyL
13-07-2017, 10:23 PM
Yeah but I'd say, this is how this stuff plays out in the real world. Try and spend an afternoon watching Vanessa Beeley's Youtubes if you want full immersion. Book an exorcism afterwards. On one level, I find all the disiformation stuff completely fascinating - it is like one of the strangest weirdest sci-fi novels ever. But then the grimness of what's been covered up brings me back down again.

luka
13-07-2017, 10:29 PM
its one of the ways it plays out. i am very resistant to letting the discussion become narrowed down to russian disinformation and propaganda campaigns though becasue its far from being the whole or even the main story imo. fascinating and nightmarish as it may be.

disinformation and propaganda and not new concepts

DannyL
13-07-2017, 11:01 PM
Surely its the most active theatre for this sort of thing at the moment? Where does propaganda stop and conspiracy start? They are fundamentally intertwined. There's such a complex overlap throughout the history of the topic. All the UFO/military disinfo material for instance.

luka
13-07-2017, 11:07 PM
it might be danny i dont know im not an expert i was just trying to explain some of the reasons i think the conspiracy stuff is interesting which is what people were asking me (very reasonably) to do.

if you lot think its not interesting, or its bad, cos its 'not true' then ok, fine, we're back where we started. but at least ive said my peice

DannyL
13-07-2017, 11:24 PM
Well likewise really. I think it's interesting but only when you're writing about it at a critical remove (as your long post above does). Most "end users" don't have this distance and are convinced say, Robert F Kennedy (and his Syria pipelines theory) has uncovered a truth hitherto unknown to the uninformed masses.

john eden
14-07-2017, 11:49 AM
What Luka wrote is great and I basically agree with Danny's replies (obviously).

I think that maybe there is a difference between Luka and I which boils down to looking at CTs from a distance vs immersing yourself in them. Obviously there are pros and cons to either approach. We both agree that CTs tell us something profound about humanity and society.

I don't think it's a question of whether or not someone has a better grasp of reality or not (that feels like a bit of a dead end). For me it's more like what tools do we use to understand the world.

And maybe as Danny has highlighted, Luka's is more of an artistic approach and mine is more scientific. If it stings or feels condescending when people bring up the worst excesses of CTs or the potential for them to cause real harm in the world then I'm afraid you're on a well worn path of artists who have tried to get right up close to the abyss. And likewise if people on the other side are painted as killjoys, people shutting down discussion etc that's hardly a new thing either.

sadmanbarty
14-07-2017, 12:24 PM
Do any of the broadly anti-conspiracy theorists (which I'd count myself as) see the negative impacts you're warning of in Luka or Sufi? If not, doesn't that suggest they've found a reasonable approach to them?

Mr. Tea
14-07-2017, 05:13 PM
Lol, luka wrote another rude reply to me but then reconsidered and deleted it.

I think what winds me up the most about your attitude here is that you sound like you're treating the whole question of conspiracy like an amusing intellectual parlour game, rather than something with very real consequences for real people. I don't think the relatives of the passengers on flight MH17 particularly enjoy being 'poised in ambiguity' - as Dan says, somebody fired that missile, and it is in principle possible to find out who that person or group was and their ideological motivation. Same goes for victims of chemical weapon attacks in Syria, people sexually abused as kids decades ago by MPs and high-profile entertainers, and all the other real victims of real conspiracies. All this relativism and po-mo contempt for fusty old notions about evidence and facts can only ever serve the purposes of the conspirators.

You're also totally wrong that the far-out Twilight Zone type of conspiracy theories have nothing to do with actual political and geopolitical conspiracies. I mean, to me it's just blindingly obvious. The overlap between those obsessed with UFOs, lizard people, ancient super-civilizations and so on with the extreme right is vast, to the point of it being a virtual identity in some circles. Just look at the company David Icke keeps. It's not even new, I mean it goes back to the founding myths of the Nazi party and the occult movements that it grew out of. Yes, it's 'fascinating' and 'interesting', but it is also being used for notably unaltruistic purposes by the very elites you rail against. You've admitted as much yourself, in fact, so again I'm slightly at a loss to understand why you get so worked up at me in particular when we largely agree on this point, at least.

luka
14-07-2017, 05:15 PM
no idea what you are banging on about sorry

Mr. Tea
14-07-2017, 05:21 PM
maybe you're just a bit dim?

luka
14-07-2017, 05:24 PM
yes probably. stop ruining my thread now please

luka
14-07-2017, 05:46 PM
priggish finger wagging without moral, intellectual or creative substance. as you well know.

Mr. Tea
14-07-2017, 06:46 PM
priggish finger wagging without moral, intellectual or creative substance.

Aww c'mon, your posts aren't that bad!

luka
14-07-2017, 11:00 PM
http://theartreserve.com/blog/mark-lombardi-index-at-pierogi-gallery

Mr. Tea
15-07-2017, 05:25 PM
OK then, in the Eco-eqsue spirit of inventing our conspiracies, how about:

Ayn Rand was actually a committed socialist and wrote books such as The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged as a joke to illustrate the absurdity of libertarianism and unfettered capitalism, but she underestimated the stupidity of the American public and was aghast when millions of people took her books at face value and thought the ideas in them were great.

Mr. Tea
15-07-2017, 05:31 PM
Human beings were genetically engineered from Australopithecus stock by ancient astronauts who, while being brilliant scientists and technologists, were also ferociously litigious. Our so-called 'junk' DNA actually encodes text, representing an end-user licence agreement, various intellectual property and copyright statements and a lengthy disclaimer.

Mr. Tea
15-07-2017, 05:42 PM
Modern Freemasonry inherited the anti-Catholic prejudice of the Knights Templar that resulted from the order's persecution by the mediaeval Roman Church, and it was because of their influence that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were chosen as targets for nuclear bombing because they had the biggest concentrations of Japan's Catholic population.

CrowleyHead
15-07-2017, 05:52 PM
The little sympathy I had for him soon evaporated when the evidence of police corruption turned out to be "all the symbols they have on their helmets, they're illuminati, yeah?"

Nation of 5% and NOI openly teach the theory that white people are the rebelled slaves from a rogue islamic scientist, originally bred from albine apes in the Caucus Mountains.

(No no, keep reading)

This is a mythos that is convenient and astronomically absurd (and later revealed not a holy text but a stolen sci-fi story), but is used to explain away the question of why white supremacy happens and why racial stratification is so upheld by white society in the West: Vengeance.

If you look at the realities of people who become willingly racist in a lot of English speaking countries such as America, there is a vicious anger and hate of those who've they've colonized or enslaved 'coming back to claim what's they've obtained'. A culture that historically more and more we've learned that has been 'stolen' in so many ways and then rehistoricized to paint a portrait of so-called white superiority. What is it that so many racists fear? Their marginalization, their insignificance, their dependency on a perceived cultural capital they cannot restore and lash out at those who would DARE demoralize them so. And so they lash out in... Vengeance.

There's also something there clearly as a message of hubris in these ideologies of "Forgiveness and benevolence to them is something we should not do", which is an antithetical to colonization's encouragement for those who they would oppress to become forgiving Christians.

Sometimes, we use the parable to teach people. The illuminati mythos is popular and it's easy access for those who can't necessarily deal with an education system that wants to talk about power and systems of control for any reasons. It is easier and more illustrative to think of power groups as Evil Forces, like something from a comic or a movie, rather than constantly wrap one's mind of the ways you are an explicit tool in the push pull.

Identifying those who control you as evil through mythology is necessary when those who have the complex ideas don't necessarily speak to or for you, and especially when so many figures who get that right are revealed to be as implicit in social and political 'games' with you as a bargaining chip in the greater games and no input or authority over your life.

When you don't get help, you justify and grab what you can.

Mr. Tea
15-07-2017, 06:04 PM
Christianity and Islam were both secretly started by the Elders of Zion to spread Yahweh-worship among gentiles. The rank-and-file clergy of these religions are unaware of this, but the Pope and all the world's archbishops, cardinals, ayatollahs and senior imams in fact report directly to a clandestine council of superiors headquartered in Jerusalem, Washington DC and that big kosher bakery on Stamford Hill.

Mr. Tea
15-07-2017, 06:52 PM
The idea that all and any fat is bad for you and should be avoided was promoted by corn syrup producers in the USA with the result that manufacturers of processed foods switched from fats to monosaccharides as the main vehicle for flavour, resulting in the American (and eventually worldwide) obesity epidemic.

Mr. Tea
15-07-2017, 06:55 PM
Actually I haven't made up a couple of these and one of them is broadly true.

DannyL
15-07-2017, 10:19 PM
I said earlier the difficultly I have with creating new conspiracies is that the world is already so weird.

THis is worth chucking into the mix: http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2012/11/22/finally-we-know-about-moscow-bombings/

HMGovt
16-07-2017, 12:14 AM
The idea that all and any fat is bad for you and should be avoided was promoted by corn syrup producers in the USA with the result that manufacturers of processed foods switched from fats to monosaccharides as the main vehicle for flavour, resulting in the American (and eventually worldwide) obesity epidemic.

This is true and has killed millions and is probably killing you, right now. As for inflammatory industrial PUFA seed oils, there's your cancer pandemic.

Mr. Tea
16-07-2017, 04:16 PM
That's the more or less true one, yeah. Dunno about a cancer pandemic - isn't that more to do with people living longer and not dying of other things so they die of cancer instead? Seem to recall a really big metastudy suggested that 60% of all cancers are just due to genetic bad luck, rather than lifestyle, diet or environment. (Not that there aren't some aspects of modern living that aren't potentially carcinogenic, obviously, but at the same time, bear in mind people in developed countries are smoking far less than they used to and there's far less heavy industry in many areas, for example.)

Edit: do you mean 'me', personally? I eat very little processed food and am by no means a cake addict. I know I've been critical of Atkins-type diets here in the past but I'm well aware of the risks of very carb-heavy diets too.

HMGovt
16-07-2017, 11:38 PM
Dunno about a cancer pandemic - isn't that more to do with people living longer and not dying of other things so they die of cancer instead? Seem to recall a really big metastudy suggested that 60% of all cancers are just due to genetic bad luck, rather than lifestyle, diet or environment.

Sure, it's just bad luck! Nothing at all to do with what they're selling you.

"In animal experiments it’s long been known that corn oil reliably increases cancer rates. For example, mice that were fed a diet high in corn oil had double the incidence of cancer (https://academic.oup.com/jnci/article-abstract/85/21/1743/909406). Dietary corn oil promotes tumors in rats by impeding apoptosis, or programmed cell suicide, in cancer cells (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15522837). In humans, we have the Israeli "paradox" (http://europepmc.org/abstract/med/8960090)."

From Vegetable Oils Are Dangerous to Health (http://roguehealthandfitness.com/vegetable-oils-are-dangerous-to-health/)

Vegetable oils are in everything. If you're looking for a rabbit hole to go down, the alimentary-pharmaceutical complex goes deep.

Mr. Tea
17-07-2017, 08:48 AM
I never said "just" bad luck, but from what I've read about it, genetic predisposition is the most important factor. I'll post some links later.

Edit: seems I've got it wrong, it actually is mostly about previously healthy DNA spontaneously developing mutations when cells divide.


It was the study that launched hundreds of scientific rebuttals, insinuations that the authors had been paid off by the chemical industry, and charges that it was a “massive” stunt “hidden behind fancy numbers of doubtful quality.”
The claim that sparked this controversy? That “bad luck,” more than environmental factors or inherited genes, affects whether someone develops cancer, implying that preventive efforts from smoking cessation to environmental cleanups were largely pointless.
Now the authors of that 2015 paper are back. In a study published on Thursday in Science, they double down on their original finding but also labor mightily to correct widespread misinterpretations of it. This time, using health records from 69 countries, they conclude that 66 percent of cancer-causing genetic mutations arise from the “bad luck” of a healthy, dividing cell making a random mistake when it copies its DNA.


............................................


Separate research has shown that roughly 42 percent of cancers are preventable by, for instance, not smoking, maintaining a healthy weight, and not being exposed to cancer-causing pollutants.


https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/most-cancer-cases-arise-from-bad-luck/

HMGovt
18-07-2017, 08:39 PM
I never said "just" bad luck, but from what I've read about it, genetic predisposition is the most important factor. I'll post some links later.

Edit: seems I've got it wrong, it actually is mostly about previously healthy DNA spontaneously developing mutations when cells divide.



https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/most-cancer-cases-arise-from-bad-luck/

Cancer isn't just a disease of genes. It seems to be as much about metabolism, look up Warburg. Targeted genetic therapies have failed abysmally. But they do have the benefit of being hugely expensive and keep lots of scientists employed and research departments funded.

I'm not hear to debate you, or anyone. I'm here to give you the benefit of superior knowledge and offhand perspicacity.

Mr. Tea
18-07-2017, 10:30 PM
Errrrr yeah OK then.

Mr. Tea
19-07-2017, 10:25 AM
Can you explain what you mean by "Cancer isn't just a disease of genes"? Cancer is an uncontrolled cellular reproduction caused by genetic malfunction, isn't it?

And I thought personalized cancer therapy was generally regarded as quite promising, and if it isn't saving millions of patients a year yet, it's because the field is still in its infancy.

droid
19-07-2017, 10:34 AM
The papers Nancy MacLean discovered show that Buchanan saw stealth as crucial. He told his collaborators that “conspiratorial secrecy is at all times essential”. Instead of revealing their ultimate destination, they would proceed by incremental steps. For example, in seeking to destroy the social security system, they would claim to be saving it, arguing that it would fail without a series of radical “reforms”. (The same argument is used by those attacking the NHS). Gradually they would build a “counter-intelligentsia”, allied to a “vast network of political power” that would become the new establishment.

Through the network of thinktanks that Koch and other billionaires have sponsored, through their transformation of the Republican party, and the hundreds of millions they have poured into state congressional and judicial races, through the mass colonisation of Trump’s administration by members of this network and lethally effective campaigns against everything from public health to action on climate change, it would be fair to say that Buchanan’s vision is maturing in the US.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jul/19/despot-disguise-democracy-james-mcgill-buchanan-totalitarian-capitalism

DannyL
19-07-2017, 12:08 PM
This could be grist to the mill. I find it remarkable that this stuff is now part of the mainstream news. It's like we're living in a William Gibson novel.

http://edition.cnn.com/videos/world/2017/07/16/bill-browder-full-interview-gps.cnn

Mr. Tea
30-07-2017, 08:35 PM
http://youtu.be/ktoniDee4qs


A Labour councillor has claimed he has fathered a child with an alien and that the regular sex he has with the extra terrestrial is causing tension in his human marriage.

Simon Parkes, who represents Stakesby on Whitby Town Council, told the Northern Echo he has had a child called Zarka with an alien he refers to as the Cat Queen.

luka
02-08-2017, 06:09 PM
http://www.themasonictrowel.com/Articles/History/other_files/timelines.htm

luka
02-08-2017, 06:38 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQ0pOIZpFlc :gun:

baboon2004
02-08-2017, 07:38 PM
It remains a mystery where David Lynch found the raw material for the freakish nightmare characters that populate his films.

@Tea - that guy Simon Parkes apparently used to lecture at the Natural History Museum

luka
02-08-2017, 08:47 PM
https://www.instagram.com/p/BVUwwqfFfuu/

HMGovt
29-08-2017, 01:03 PM
This is true and has killed millions and is probably killing you, right now. As for inflammatory industrial PUFA seed oils, there's your cancer pandemic.

https://goo.gl/ceUFic

"High carbohydrate intake was associated with higher risk of total mortality, whereas total fat and individual types of fat were related to lower total mortality. Total fat and types of fat were not associated with cardiovascular disease, myocardial infarction, or cardiovascular disease mortality, whereas saturated fat had an inverse association with stroke. Global dietary guidelines should be reconsidered in light of these findings."

Mr. Tea
03-09-2017, 04:47 PM
http://www.themideastbeast.com/jewish-conspiracy-theorists-claim-non-jews-control-global-politics-media-banks/