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Mr. Tea
28-03-2012, 05:16 PM
Don't really have a great deal to say about this except the painfully obvious point that it's just incredibly depressing.

Despite Sarko's statement that Merah "represented nothing and nobody" (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/mar/22/toulouse-killings-mohammed-merah), it's obvious the far Right are going to make capital out of this. But...


The French authorities are investigating after anti-Semitic emails were sent to the school after the massacre on 19 March, when Islamist gunman Mohamed Merah shot dead three small children and a teacher, as well as seriously wounding a schoolboy.

Marc Sztulman, head of a local Jewish representative group, said the school's email system had received a large number of messages "calling for the murder of Jews or drawing a tenuous link with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict".

Some messages were reportedly signed "real French people", suggesting the work of extreme nationalists rather than Islamists. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-17534308)

...even when presented with the imminent threat of al-Qa'eda taking over the whole of France, extreme nationalist arseholes still have time to have a crack at Jews.

So as usual, extremists on both sides end up in a sort of tacit entente, with predictably depressing consequences for mainstream politics.

baboon2004
28-03-2012, 05:34 PM
Yeah, pretty grim, France has big problems (as everywhere in Europe, timing of all this is not coincidence).

Anti-Arab sentiment and anti-Roma sentiment are obviously huge in France too, both of which Sarkozy is into promoting. I don't think he has the right to say anything about bigotry. Hope Hollande wins, as look fairly likely (but far from certain).

Mr. Tea
28-03-2012, 06:54 PM
Yeah, well, we'll see. Of course while it's all linked to the status of Arabs/Muslims in the country and others' attitudes to them, it's just shocking how much really severe hatred there is for Jews in this day and age. Though it goes without saying that that hatred comes from a small minority - I'm sure most French people of whatever background see straight through the pathetic excuse of "Israel, innit".

baboon2004
29-03-2012, 11:15 AM
Terrible definitely, but why shocking (though maybe you didn't mean it was surprising, just terrible). I think low-level, casual anti-Semitism is everywhere, just as with all racism, and there's an extreme wing given to violence, as with all racism. Although what happened in Toulouse was headline news for obvious reasons, loads of stuff goes under the radar. Also, I'm not sure about appeals to the contemporary age in terms of racial/cultural harmony - bigotry is everywhere you look, as it has always been. PR has got better, sure, which masks a lot of it, but hard economic times will bring it to the fore as ever.

On a separate note, I spend a fair amount of time in Stamford Hill, and it is interesting to see what I perceive as shoulder-shrugging, well-that's just-them-isn't-it tolerance between the (pretty extreme Orthodox*) Jewish and non-Jewish communities there in the same geographical area, I can't help but think that it is an uneasy truce though, based as it is upon segregation and non-mixing, and would all be blown apart if political winds were to change.

* in that I think enforced segregation by school, and offering precious little secular education, is extreme

blacktulip
29-03-2012, 12:43 PM
There was a good chunk about the origins of the French right-wing movement in Jonathan Meades' recent France documentary (the first part).

Mr. Tea
29-03-2012, 01:40 PM
Terrible definitely, but why shocking (though maybe you didn't mean it was surprising, just terrible). I think low-level, casual anti-Semitism is everywhere, just as with all racism, and there's an extreme wing given to violence, as with all racism.

Yeah, obviously it's no surprise that people have prejudices and that in extreme cases this can lead people to horrific violence - it's just that when people talk about prejudice and inequality in western Europe these days it's usually in terms either of Muslims and extremism/terror threats/Islamophobia on the one hand, or blacks and unemployment, crime, gangs etc. on the other. With anti-Semitism there's a horrible feeling of "oh god, not again...". Not that anti-Semitism is inherently any worse than any other form of racism, of course, just that it seems to belong to another era of history. Though clearly it doesn't.


On a separate note, I spend a fair amount of time in Stamford Hill, and it is interesting to see what I perceive as shoulder-shrugging, well-that's just-them-isn't-it tolerance between the (pretty extreme Orthodox*) Jewish and non-Jewish communities there in the same geographical area, I can't help but think that it is an uneasy truce though, based as it is upon segregation and non-mixing, and would all be blown apart if political winds were to change.

* in that I think enforced segregation by school, and offering precious little secular education, is extreme

I think some of the orthodox crowd in Stamford Hill/Clapton are part of the sect that is fervently anti-Zionist - though I don't know how representative they are of the Jewish community in that area as a whole. There's definitely been an upswing in anti-Semitic attacks in Britain in the past few years and most of it seems to be coming from Muslims. Or, perhaps as in Merah's case, just maladjusted and unpleasant individuals using Islam as a justification for venting their spleen at Europe's traditional scapegoats.

On a side note, apparently Merah's father intends to sue the French state for "murdering" his son. Which is presumably going to bring him bring him back to life and work wonders for race relations into the bargain.

STN
29-03-2012, 02:18 PM
A side point, and I don't know a huge amount about it but I believe there are a number of anti-Zionist sects in Stamford Hill, with a range of anti-Zionist beliefs (e.g., there should be no Jewish homeland until the coming of the messiah; Jewish people being too sinful to deserve their own country yet; Jews being ordained to be stateless by God). There was a house on Alkham Road for a while that had Neturi Karta slogans in the windows. I think that image you sometimes see of two Haredi burning an Israeli flag shows members of this sect. They ascribe to the first of the three examples I've given of Haredic anti-Zionism.

craner
29-03-2012, 04:08 PM
It's almost exclusively Hasidic in Stamford Hill, although I suppose your run-of-the-mill anti-semitic thug would not know the difference. The (normal, rich) Jews they'd want to target would be in Golders Green or Hendon.

baboon2004
29-03-2012, 04:17 PM
@ STN and Tea Never knew that, but it sounds nuts. Anti-Zionism by all means, but preferably for saner reasons.

One of the Hasidic Jewish neighbours asked my girlfriend if he could tap into her internet account because he had to download some (unspecified) videos for the 'retard' he had coming to stay. He's a circumcision doctor too. Charming man. Her upstairs neighbour is very much nicer though.

STN
29-03-2012, 04:19 PM
Neturei Kata are Litvish, I think, but yeah, there's not a lot of them and most of the Haredic Jews in SH are Hasidic.

craner
29-03-2012, 04:19 PM
You can usually spot a few of the more zealous with their felt hats and pigtails alongside Hezbollah and hardline Palestine activists at the big rallies and protests. Look out for them.

STN
29-03-2012, 04:24 PM
I believe the head of NK went to a Holocaust denial conference, like some sort of fucking prick. He wasn't there to contest that it happened, rather to say that it was a punishment from God, which doesn't seem any more palatable.

craner
29-03-2012, 04:28 PM
Hilarious. They're like a Monty Python sketch.

baboon2004
29-03-2012, 04:28 PM
Bet he's popular.

Mr. Tea
29-03-2012, 04:29 PM
I remember John Eden saying some of them burned a Star Of David flag on a street called West Bank (seen it myself from the (38?) bus that goes along there) in Lower Clapton.

Mr. Tea
29-03-2012, 04:32 PM
I believe the head of NK went to a Holocaust denial conference, like some sort of fucking prick. He wasn't there to contest that it happened, rather to say that it was a punishment from God, which doesn't seem any more palatable.

Now that is some next-level self-hatred right there.

Who was it who quoted Mel Brooks on here the other day? "My father was an unorthodox Jew - he was a Nazi." Brilliant.

baboon2004
29-03-2012, 04:34 PM
Ah, West Bank and East Bank are in Stamford Hill (unless there's more than one?). I nearly pissed myself first time I walked along there (and then glanced at the street sign).

There was a crazy Hasidic nighttime street shindig a few weeks ago that I thought initially was Cypriot football fans celebrating the APOEL Champions' League win.

Mr. Tea
29-03-2012, 04:38 PM
Ah, West Bank and East Bank are in Stamford Hill (unless there's more than one?). I nearly pissed myself first time I walked along there (and then glanced at the street sign).


Well yeah, that's the one I meant - Stamford Hill, Clapton, whatever.

Edit: Upper Clapton then, Lower Clapton is the Hackney end, innit. And the less said about Eric, the better.

craner
29-03-2012, 04:47 PM
Anyway, back to France...

baboon2004
29-03-2012, 05:35 PM
so apparently in France a law was passed in 2003 to make crimes with an anti-Jewish element punishable by harsher sentences than equivalent crimes without the racist element, but by 2009 this still wasn't the case for Islamophobic crimes. Not sure if that's changed since. As to Roma, obviously thousands of people have been deported.

baboon2004
23-04-2012, 10:40 AM
18% for Le Pen is shocking, especially given that apathy isn't an explanation (80 per cent turnout). Melenchon only taking 11 per cent is depressing too. Watch Sarkozy court the far right vote in round 2.

grizzleb
24-04-2012, 11:33 AM
Did anyone see the Newsnight segment about the French elections last night? They were painting Hollande like some kind of Stalinist, and his anti-austerity policies as basically criminally insane and dangerous. It's just as well I don't pay a license fee...

IdleRich
24-04-2012, 02:09 PM
Hasn't Le Pen Jr kinda softened her stance a bit to move the party somewhat to the left (much to the disgust of her father)?

baboon2004
14-04-2013, 10:11 PM
@ STN and Tea Never knew that, but it sounds nuts. Anti-Zionism by all means, but preferably for saner reasons.

One of the Hasidic Jewish neighbours asked my girlfriend if he could tap into her internet account because he had to download some (unspecified) videos for the 'retard' he had coming to stay. He's a circumcision doctor too. Charming man. Her upstairs neighbour is very much nicer though.

Turns out my g/f's (now former) upstairs neighbour may well be a member of Neturei Karta! Slightly nuts.

Mr. Tea
05-02-2014, 02:29 PM
Antisemitic - sorry, anti-Zionist - French comedian banned from entering UK:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/03/dieudonne-banned-uk-nicolas-anelka-quenelle

Mr. Tea
01-08-2014, 04:10 PM
Severe anti-Semitic shit going down in Britain and all over Europe, it seems. Predictable but no less depressing for all that.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&gl=uk&tbm=nws&authuser=0&q=antisemitism+europe&=

Mr. Tea
05-08-2014, 09:40 AM
I read something on the rise of Golden Dawn in Greece recently and there was a statistic in there saying that around 70% of the Greek population is anti-Semitic. Dunno if I believe it, seems a ludicrously high percentage.

Perhaps it's not as unbelievable as all that. Severe economic crises tend to push people towards both extremes of the political spectrum, neither of which is particularly Jew-friendly to put it mildly. I don't know how big Greece's Muslim population is but it must be sizeable, given the country's location within Europe, and I think a lot of people - older people, at least - still practice (a fairly conservative form of?) Christianity in a big way.

owengriffiths
05-08-2014, 06:50 PM
Yep. 300,000 Muslims in Athens alone yet the powers that be and public opinion are making it very difficult to build one.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-20820349