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View Full Version : There's no such thing as Margaret Thatcher



nomos
08-04-2013, 01:38 PM
#nowthatchersdead is trending. FYI Cher is fine.

Mr. Tea
08-04-2013, 01:55 PM
Reckon she'll get that privatized funeral?

sufi
08-04-2013, 02:53 PM
odd article amongst the top 5 stories on the bbc

1: Former Prime Minister Thatcher dies
2: Reaction to Thatcher death
3: UK retailers ration baby milk (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-22066243)
4: Obituary: Margaret Thatcher
5: Margaret Thatcher: A life in pictures

the mission continues...

baboon2004
08-04-2013, 03:11 PM
The list of people who should know better queuing up to allege that this is a 'sad day' is mind-numbing. Expecting an Arthur Scargill tribute poem right about now.

Sectionfive
08-04-2013, 04:36 PM
http://cf.broadsheet.ie/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/proxy.jpg

paolo
08-04-2013, 08:41 PM
Glasgow City Council have urged people to stay away from the city's George Square after hundreds gathered to mark the death of Baroness Thatcher.

In a statement posted on their website, the Council said it was concerned the gathering was intended to be a "party".

The event was organised by posts on social media.

It's believed the gathering took inspiration from the song George Square Thatcher Death Party by the Glasgow group Mogwai.

The Council said it had become aware of plans for an event circulating on social media, and around 250 people have gathered in the square outside the City Chambers.

The statement said: "Regardless of whether or not it's appropriate to have a party to celebrate someone dying, this event was organised without involvement or consent from the council and we have safety concerns for anyone attending.

"We urge people to stay away."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-22072150

Sectionfive
08-04-2013, 09:51 PM
In Brixton, south London - the scene of fierce rioting in the 1980s, blamed on deep social divisions as well as racial tensions - a hastily convened party was gathering pace.

"Thatcher herself, she represents so much of what people hate about what has happened to Britain in the last 20, 30 years," said 40-year-old graphic designer Ben Windsor, standing next to a man holding a poster with a crude Thatcher cartoon and the words 'rejoice rejoice'.

As policeman watched on, others arrived clutching cans of lager and bottles of wine and shouting 'she's dead!'

By early evening, a quickly rising 199,000 people had "liked" the isthatcherdeadyet.co.uk website, which had been updated with a large block-capital "Yes."

The world is a reassuringly derisive place today :)

Writing to Hayek


I was aware of the remarkable success of the Chilean economy in reducing the share of Government expenditure substantially over the decade of the 70s. The progression from Allende's Socialism to the free enterprise capitalist economy of the 1980s is a striking example of economic reform from which we can learn many lessons.

However, I am sure you will agree that, in Britain with our democratic institutions and the need for a high degree of consent, some of the measures adopted in Chile are quite unacceptable.

How did she feel about the EU finally & explicitly overcoming the pesky democracy thing I wonder?

baboon2004
09-04-2013, 10:17 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzVZn7M9mo4

Mr. Tea
09-04-2013, 10:29 AM
Bit of a brainfail from the Grauniad here in an otherwise reasonable article about the fallacy of 'not speaking ill of the dead':

She played a key role not only in bringing about the first Gulf War but also using her influence to publicly advocate for the 2003 attack on Iraq. She denounced Nelson Mandela and his ANC as "terrorists", something even David Cameron ultimately admitted was wrong. She was a steadfast friend to brutal tyrants such as Augusto Pinochet, Saddam Hussein and Indonesian dictator General Suharto ("One of our very best and most valuable friends"). (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/apr/08/margaret-thatcher-death-etiquette)

Huh?

zhao
09-04-2013, 02:35 PM
Bit of a brainfail from the Grauniad here in an otherwise reasonable article about the fallacy of 'not speaking ill of the dead':

publicly advocate for the 2003 attack on Iraq. She was a steadfast friend to Saddam Hussein (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/apr/08/margaret-thatcher-death-etiquette)

Huh?

she liked Hussein but hated Iraqi people. simple

Mr. Tea
09-04-2013, 03:51 PM
she liked Hussein but hated Iraqi people. simple

Wot, she liked him so much she supported the war that deposed him and led to his trial and execution? :slanted:

Patrick Swayze
09-04-2013, 04:29 PM
she's just a meme to me

droid
09-04-2013, 04:52 PM
Wot, she liked him so much she supported the war that deposed him? :slanted:

Presumably they meant that she was a friend to Saddam when she was in power, which, like Reagan, she was.

Mr. Tea
09-04-2013, 05:32 PM
There's a big difference between an alliance of convenience (that vanished in a puff of smoke when Saddam invaded an oil-rich, West-friendly country) and a "staunch friendship". I think it's just the author being a bit lazy (or the editor a bit crap) by throwing in Saddam with Pinochet, whom Thatcher genuinely personally liked and supported, in order to damn her in as many different ways as possible.

baboon2004
09-04-2013, 05:40 PM
She had zero compunction about calling anyone her friend, however evil, is all we need to know. Although it's hard to know what a 'staunch friendship' could mean to a withered husk of a human being like that, anyways.

Mr. Tea
09-04-2013, 07:50 PM
Well there's that of course, but it does seem there were at least some people she genuinely liked and respected, such as Reagan and Pinochet (e.g. calling for the latter's release when he was arrested long after the end of his political career).

What I think is interesting about Thatcher's public image and legacy is that her supporters fall into two camps: those who actually did and are still doing very well out of 34 (and counting) years of Thatcherism of one shade or another, and the probably much larger group of people who are beguiled by Thatcherite rhetoric without realizing how badly the majority of the country, including them, were/are screwed over by that ideology. What's ironic is that many of the things about modern British society that are undeniably a bit shit are the direct or indirect result of her policies and the policies of those that followed in her footsteps but have been blamed in one way or another on the Left. Like how kids failing to engage with education are blamed on feckless parents or 'trendy teaching methods', rather than a dry, prescriptive curriculum intended to turn pupils into efficient little producer-consumers and not much else. (Which is not to say feckless parents don't exist, but, y'know.) Or how kids whose values are based mainly on the ownership of stuff are blamed on the 'culture of entitlement' supposedly bred by the social state, rather than the soul-crushing omnipresence of aspirational advertising.

I guess this is all of a piece with a commonly made observation about Thatcher(ism) that it's inherently contradictory to promote economic liberalism on one hand and social conservatism on the other, since the commercialization of everyday life leads to the decay of exactly the values (small-c) conservatives prize so highly.

crackerjack
09-04-2013, 09:55 PM
She had zero compunction about calling anyone her friend, however evil, is all we need to know.

That's politics, baby!

crackerjack
10-04-2013, 12:11 AM
Oh that Russell Brand piece in the Guardian is brilliant.

baboon2004
10-04-2013, 10:39 AM
Not the kind of politics I have the slightest bit of respect for. But yeah, for a lot of people, it is. In Thatcher's particular case, she stood up for/defended monsters and monstrous regimes she had no need to stand up for, even as a realpolitik (sp?) move. Loathsome human being.

Agreed on the Russell Brand piece. He tends to be good when writing seriously.

@Tea - Agreed about the number of people who don't realise what her policies have done to the things they value. As much of a shit as Thatcher was, she couldn't have done anything without the often blind support of millions. She would have been out had the Falklands War not happened, as her opinion poll ratings were through the floor for the first couple of years of her term - it's a sad testament to moronic nationalism that this declaration of war (in support of islands for which she had been steadily running down British economic support for a number of years prior to 82) changed everything.

Blair is equally loathsome though. New Labour are/were c8nts, perhaps even more so than Thatcher for their pretence of being even vaguely 'Left'. At least she had the decency not to hide what she was (well, in certain respects).

But - The kind of democratic politics that we have in Britain seems to entail that most PMs will effectively be sociopaths (either that or sad, dead, broken husks in the case of Major and Brown, and maybe, god help us, Miliband), as a normal human being would never want to take up the post or be allowed to by a media dealing almost solely in irrelevant bullshit rather than policies.

baboon2004
10-04-2013, 10:58 AM
I guess this is all of a piece with a commonly made observation about Thatcher(ism) that it's inherently contradictory to promote economic liberalism on one hand and social conservatism on the other, since the commercialization of everyday life leads to the decay of exactly the values (small-c) conservatives prize so highly.

Yep, and I'm sure there must be more moderate conservatives who disliked Thatcher for making a conservative party into a neoliberal one. It's not only Labour supporters who saw the goalposts changed forevermore.

Mr. Tea
10-04-2013, 12:29 PM
Blair is equally loathsome though. New Labour are/were c8nts, perhaps even more so than Thatcher for their pretence of being even vaguely 'Left'. At least she had the decency not to hide what she was (well, in certain respects).


I dunno if this is entirely fair - New Labour did plough an astonishing amount of money into the NHS and education, came to some sort of agreement on Northern Ireland, introduced the minimum wage, repealed Section 28, effectively decriminalized cannabis possession, reformed the Lords, effected significant devolution for Scotland and Wales...can you see a (literally) Thatcherite govt doing all or any of these things? The point still stands about Labour being in thrall to the almighty Market, but there *are* issues that distinguish them from the Tories.

And yeah, it's easy to forget how much Thatcher was hated not just by the left but by her own party, especially initially. I'm sure a lot of this can be explained simply by a reaction to her sex but I think some of it was for good reasons, too - old-fashioned conservatives (conservatives in the literal sense, as opposed to neoliberals) who could see the direction she was taking the country in and didn't like it.

e/y
10-04-2013, 12:34 PM
this is good: http://novaramedia.com/2013/04/the-lady-is-not-returning-examining-the-thatcher-legacy/

baboon2004
10-04-2013, 01:10 PM
I'd rather have a Labour government than what we have at the moment, but that doesn't mean I don't think they're despicable. Lesser of two evils etc. It really is a grim choice. Seeing those wankers praise Thatcher and promise to get 'tougher on welfare' - just sickening.

And as to the first wave of new labour, Blair did a better impression of being a human being. Alarming, since it was still one of the least convincing impressions in history.


I dunno if this is entirely fair - New Labour did plough an astonishing amount of money into the NHS and education, came to some sort of agreement on Northern Ireland, introduced the minimum wage, repealed Section 28, effectively decriminalized cannabis possession, reformed the Lords, effected significant devolution for Scotland and Wales...can you see a (literally) Thatcherite govt doing all or any of these things? The point still stands about Labour being in thrall to the almighty Market, but there *are* issues that distinguish them from the Tories.

rubberdingyrapids
10-04-2013, 03:15 PM
dissapointed milliband didnt take up the chance to stick the boot in on channel4 news the other night. pathetic actually. had to wait for gerry adams to put things in sharper, less foggy perspective.

pleased to see the demos/celebrations in brixton and elsewhere. also seemed weird - reminded me of all the protests i saw on the news as a kid in the 80s. wonder if anyone from the present generation will do the same when blair dies.

viktorvaughn
10-04-2013, 03:51 PM
Ian Bone back in the papers. (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2306620/Thatcher-death-party-Young-union-firebrand-Bryan-Simpson-middle-aged-anarchist-Ian-Bone-parties-hatred.html)

baboon2004
10-04-2013, 04:12 PM
I was giving Miliband the benefit of the doubt for a while (in not being a total prick, so not much benefit, but still), but it's now quite clear that he's a cowardly shit.

"had to wait for gerry adams to put things in sharper, less foggy perspective" - perhaps the first time this phrase has ever been uttered! Did they have someone do his voice?

Yeah, the demos were good - the people in Glasgow made everyone else look positively restrained, at least from youtube videos. The reorganisation of the Ritzy sign (in Brixton) was sheer class, and is currently my screensaver.

When Blair dies, I am certain there will be celebrations. Maybe even more, bizarrely.

Mr. Tea
10-04-2013, 07:14 PM
Atta girl, Glenda:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=XDtClJYJBj8

baboon2004
11-04-2013, 06:05 PM
Gotta watch this (no headphones with me, alas)

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/tony-blair-warns-ed-milibands-labour-over-move-to-left-and-says-resistance-to-welfare-cuts-will-reduce-it-to-party-of-protest-8568148.html On the other end of the spectrum. What a shit.

Sectionfive
11-04-2013, 11:08 PM
and is currently my screensaver.



:D

Great watching the usual suspects get wound up too. Will be back to pc gone made next week...

hucks
11-04-2013, 11:09 PM
Atta girl, Glenda:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=XDtClJYJBj8

Those of you who don't know Telegraph columnist and Blairite windup merchant Dan Hodges should read this

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danhodges/100211461/if-labour-cant-show-restraint-today-it-will-say-more-about-them-than-it-does-about-margaret-thatcher/

then this

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danhodges/100211777/mum-did-to-maggie-what-shed-done-to-kermit/

crackerjack
11-04-2013, 11:54 PM
Those of you who don't know Telegraph columnist and Blairite windup merchant Dan Hodges should read this

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danhodges/100211461/if-labour-cant-show-restraint-today-it-will-say-more-about-them-than-it-does-about-margaret-thatcher/

then this

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danhodges/100211777/mum-did-to-maggie-what-shed-done-to-kermit/

Hodges is a bit - OK, a lot - of a knob, but the second piece is just brilliant.

crackerjack
14-04-2013, 03:00 PM
I'm waiting to see more coverage of this, but I wouldn't be surprised if it were true.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/margaret-thatcher-tax-snatcher-mystery-1828441

As ever where the super-rich & tax are concerned, ownership is somewhat opaque. But it seems it may not be hers to pass down, so the tax dodge would be her friend's, not hers.


The house in Chester Square, where similar properties sell for more than 6m, was bought on a 10-year lease for 700,000 in 1991, and renewed a decade later. In 2006, it was bought for 2.4m by a company based in the British Virgin Islands, presumed to belong to a friend, and it's unlikely to pass to her children. (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/10-things-you-thought-you-knew-about-margaret-thatchers-downing-street-years-8572023.html)

baboon2004
17-04-2013, 12:39 PM
Osborne's tears for Thatcher. What a monstrous piece of shit.

Nothing insightful to say, but Britain really is a wretched place in its subservience to the powerful. A nation of people who can't criticise their parents (both literal and national-metaphorical).

Mr. Tea
17-04-2013, 02:52 PM
In fairness, a hell of a lot of people clearly are criticizing Thatcher, aren't they? They may not be receiving as much coverage in the official channels as the mourners and tribute-payers, but that's another issue.

Patrick Swayze
17-04-2013, 04:43 PM
Tory MP Eleanor Laing on the news just now saying the lack of protest shows the "decency" of the British people :rolleyes:

Patrick Swayze
17-04-2013, 04:45 PM
Also standing in front of parliament (where it is now illegal to stage protests as far as I know) saying how we wouldn't be living in a democracy if people weren't allowed to protest.

lol

baboon2004
18-04-2013, 01:02 AM
In fairness, a hell of a lot of people clearly are criticizing Thatcher, aren't they? They may not be receiving as much coverage in the official channels as the mourners and tribute-payers, but that's another issue.

So many people are standing up for her that I feel sick, that's all I know. I agree that the monomania of the media make sit worse, though

Mr. Tea
18-04-2013, 08:37 AM
https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/540158_169671589858456_2015985179_n.jpg

Anyone else a fan of this (https://www.facebook.com/youareadolphin) page? It's easily my favourite page on facebook at the moment.

paolo
18-04-2013, 08:40 AM
So does anyone on this board actually like Thatcher? Even a wee bit?

paolo
18-04-2013, 08:41 AM
If there are any Thatcher fans in Glasgow they're keeping their heads down

paolo
18-04-2013, 08:42 AM
Just realised that I just used 'there', 'they're' and 'their' in a sentence

:cool:

bassbeyondreason
18-04-2013, 11:09 AM
Anyone else a fan of this (https://www.facebook.com/youareadolphin) page? It's easily my favourite page on facebook at the moment.

Cosigned.

Friend of mine was pictured in the Mail's "The Left's Chorus of Hatred" article, so proud of her.

continuum
18-04-2013, 08:52 PM
And yeah, it's easy to forget how much Thatcher was hated not just by the left but by her own party, especially initially. I'm sure a lot of this can be explained simply by a reaction to her sex but I think some of it was for good reasons, too - old-fashioned conservatives (conservatives in the literal sense, as opposed to neoliberals) who could see the direction she was taking the country in and didn't like it.

Watched a documentary at the weekend which totally changed my view of her. Never realised she'd done so much until viewing it. I thought she was the devil but after watching this now believe she is a saint: Margaret: Death Of A Revolutionary (http://www.channel4.com/programmes/margaret-death-of-a-revolutionary/4od#3508791)

Mr. Tea
18-04-2013, 09:23 PM
lol yeah OK

Patrick Swayze
18-04-2013, 10:16 PM
Watched a documentary at the weekend which totally changed my view of her. Never realised she'd done so much until viewing it. I thought she was the devil but after watching this now believe she is a saint: Margaret: Death Of A Revolutionary (http://www.channel4.com/programmes/margaret-death-of-a-revolutionary/4od#3508791)

sounds like similar logic to adam curtis analysis of rupert murdoch (http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/adamcurtis/2011/01/rupert_murdoch_-_a_portrait_of.html) but with a more positive spin