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Sectionfive
28-06-2013, 06:49 PM
All getting quite unedifying isn't it. Though will probably be nothing compared to what comes after.

Been reading a lot of old parliamentary debates & newspapers. At least people were consistent in their contempt for Thatcher but there has been some shift in official attitudes the ANC an all around it. Will be interesting to see what part of both Mandela's and our own Government/industry's history gets left out.

crackerjack
28-06-2013, 10:58 PM
All getting quite unedifying isn't it. Though will probably be nothing compared to what comes after.

Been reading a lot of old parliamentary debates & newspapers. At least people were consistent in their contempt for Thatcher but there has been some shift in official attitudes the ANC an all around it. Will be interesting to see what part of both Mandela's and our own Government/industry's history gets left out.

Also interesting how the 't' word has become too toxic to allow any nuance.

edit: sorry, just realised that was a bit oblique. What I mean is: Mandela is good and terrorism is bad, ergo Mandela can't have been a terrorist. Even though technically the ANC endorsed terror (though without using it particularly extensively) and Mandela played a key part in that and never disavowed it. The notion that terror can be 'good' can't currently be entertained.

IdleRich
30-06-2013, 10:32 AM
Ha, until I read the second paragraph I thought that the t-word was Thatcher. Would have been equally true if it was I think.

Patrick Swayze
30-06-2013, 05:00 PM
He should have a full state funeral funded by the thatcher estate

baboon2004
01-07-2013, 10:17 AM
Also interesting how the 't' word has become too toxic to allow any nuance.

edit: sorry, just realised that was a bit oblique. What I mean is: Mandela is good and terrorism is bad, ergo Mandela can't have been a terrorist. Even though technically the ANC endorsed terror (though without using it particularly extensively) and Mandela played a key part in that and never disavowed it. The notion that terror can be 'good' can't currently be entertained.

Was there ever a time that the word wouldn't have had too much of a delegitimising connotation to attach it to the actions of 'the good guys'?

Mr. Tea
01-07-2013, 11:08 AM
"Freedom fighter" has an altogether more wholesome ring to it, doesn't it?

baboon2004
01-07-2013, 11:12 AM
Yep, pretty sure Thatcher wasn't ambivalent about who was in the wrong in describing the ANC as a terrorist organisation.

sufi
01-07-2013, 11:56 AM
A post circulating Facebook and elsewhere reads:

Nelson Mandela will die soon. Today, tomorrow, this week, next week. It won't be long. Remember this, he out-lived Thatcher. When he does die, and David Cameron jumps on the Mandela bandwagon, remember that in 1985 he was a top member of the Federation of Conservative Students, which produced the "Hang Mandela" posters. In 1989, Cameron worked in the Tory Policy Unit at Central Office and went on an anti-sanctions fact-finding mission to South Africa with a pro-apartheid lobby firm sponsored by PW Botha. Remember this when he tells the world he was inspired by Madiba.

http://i.stack.imgur.com/TeN0o.jpg

The 1989 trip to South Africa, and its sponsorship by an anti-sanctions lobby firm is well documented.

I have found plenty of corroboration for the existence of the poster in question, produced by the Foundation of Conservative Students, but not the exact year it was produced, nor evidence that Cameron was a member of the organisation, and it so, when.

So, was David Cameron a "top member" of the FCS at the time these posters were produced? Is there evidence that he was instrumental in, or sympathetic to, the production of these posters?.

padraig (u.s.)
02-07-2013, 06:07 AM
The notion that terror can be 'good' can't currently be entertained

never has really. granted post-9/11 hysteria is such that it's virtually impossible to have any public discourse on the word "terrorism" but it's always been the case that allies are freedom fighters and enemies are terrorists and/or criminals. no one wants to say anything remotely good apartheid, including (maybe especially) people who supported it at the time, and no one wants to say anything bad about Mandela. the solution is to sand all the difficult edges off his legacy and make it a safe thing to embrace. it helps that he was in jail for the most vicious parts of the anti-apartheid struggle, granting distance from things like necklacing, and by the time he got out he looked like a kindly grandfather and that's how most people in the world know him.

when he does die I'm sure it will be very disgusting to hear certain people sing his praises, as it is to watch happen every year to MLK. however, I will say it wouldn't be the worst thing for him to be remembered as a conciliator, as his greatest achievement was his role in keeping post-apartheid SA from descending into a white/black (or Zulu/ANC) civil war bloodbath.

Mr. Tea
02-07-2013, 08:11 AM
allies are freedom fighters and enemies are terrorists and/or criminals.

I've always got the impression that the IRA has/had pretty widespread support among many Americans who would probably not consider themselves 'pro-terror', per se - is this accurate? How was the IRA's terror campaign reported in mainstream US media at the time compared to Islamist terror today, would you say?

routes
07-08-2013, 04:02 PM
http://dailycurrant.com/2013/08/05/robert-mugabe-blasts-coward-nelson-mandela/

awaiting Jacob Zuma's response with interest...

SA is fucked but honestly I feel incredibly sad for Zimbabwe. Did you hear that Mugabe is completely dismantling the Zim education system? they managed to rush a big initiative through during the election mania so it didn't really show up on the international radar, what with all the allegations of undemocratic process, fraud, fake ballots, intimidation, ridiculous propaganda, lies, fake data, etc flying about... Basically, despite the many years of zero investment, somehow Zimbabwe still has quite a good education system - despite the fact that towards the end of last year several huge shipments of new state school books were found in a municipal dump because the logistics company trousered the cash and denied all knowledge lol (the logistics company was part-owned by someone in the government lol... again, this was barely reported in any international media... let alone the Africa part of the BBC lolol). The point being that Mugabe's new state education measures are basically a way of him making it impossible for any of his people to go and work elsewhere in the future. There are currently between 3 and 5 million Zimbabweans in SA, local SA people don't like them much because the Zim immigrants are all so literate, numerate and skilled thanks to the soon-to-be-extinct education system, they get better jobs. Also they all speak good English, so the lucky ones who managed to get out can go and work in other places internationally too. So Mugabe is basically closing that down for the current and next generations. It's completely fucked. I need to stop reading and talking about this stuff... anyway...

routes
07-08-2013, 04:10 PM
also

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02351/JuliusMalema_2351099b.jpg

get used to seeing this prick (edit: incredible dangerous man) around the place... especially now China is slowing its investment in SA, he can start mouthing off even more... completely untouchable, it seems.

Mr. Tea
07-08-2013, 04:20 PM
http://dailycurrant.com/2013/08/05/robert-mugabe-blasts-coward-nelson-mandela/


That's interesting about Zimbabwe but I have to wonder if this 'Daily Currant' is a particularly (http://dailycurrant.com/2013/02/02/zimbabwes-mugabe-pledges-ban-color-white/) trustworthy (http://dailycurrant.com/2013/02/28/pope-benedict-gay/) news source (http://dailycurrant.com/2013/07/01/nasa-finds-message-from-god-on-mars/)? :slanted:

trza
07-08-2013, 07:18 PM
I don't want to be "that guy", but Morgan Tsvangirai got way to close to Mugabe and it looks like he just wasn't ready for what was going on. You can read stories about Tsvangirai living in luxury with the wealthiest people in Harare. He was outmaneuvered by an aging despot for the millionth time.

crackerjack
07-08-2013, 08:47 PM
never has really. granted post-9/11 hysteria is such that it's virtually impossible to have any public discourse on the word "terrorism" but it's always been the case that allies are freedom fighters and enemies are terrorists and/or criminals. no one wants to say anything remotely good apartheid, including (maybe especially) people who supported it at the time, and no one wants to say anything bad about Mandela. the solution is to sand all the difficult edges off his legacy and make it a safe thing to embrace. it helps that he was in jail for the most vicious parts of the anti-apartheid struggle, granting distance from things like necklacing, and by the time he got out he looked like a kindly grandfather and that's how most people in the world know him.

when he does die I'm sure it will be very disgusting to hear certain people sing his praises, as it is to watch happen every year to MLK. however, I will say it wouldn't be the worst thing for him to be remembered as a conciliator, as his greatest achievement was his role in keeping post-apartheid SA from descending into a white/black (or Zulu/ANC) civil war bloodbath.

All true, but it's particularly notable in Mandela's case. Witness how Thatcher and the more extreme 80s Tories (such as the FCS) were vilified for calling him a terrorist (simplistic but objectively true) when their real crime was siding with apartheid against the ANC and the liberation struggle.

Sectionfive
09-08-2013, 03:01 AM
I've always got the impression that the IRA has/had pretty widespread support among many Americans who would probably not consider themselves 'pro-terror', per se - is this accurate? How was the IRA's terror campaign reported in mainstream US media at the time compared to Islamist terror today, would you say?

First bit I suppose is America was never an IRA target as is alleged of much of contemporary terror. Wouldn't know how deep support was/is outside of the Irish American community tbh but it was enough to have Clinton over in lead up to ceasefire etc He's still over every two three years while Adams & McGuinness are over in the White House once a year I think. The provisionals of course cast themselves in the freedom fighter guise, drawing on an international as well as Irish guerilla traditions for legitimacy. Che's grandmother was from Galway

Guerilla is probably is a description which is becoming extinct you know.

Would recommend this to anyone with interest in history/politics. The Fenian Dynamite Campaign of the 1880s

https://soundcloud.com/nearfm/the-history-show-episode-16

Sectionfive
06-12-2013, 12:50 AM
An incredible legacy

baboon2004
06-12-2013, 10:43 AM
http://in.reuters.com/article/2013/12/05/mandela-legacy-idINDEE9B40JV20131205

an attempt to review Mandela's life as a man rather than a secular saint...makes a few interesting points, but I'd need to know a lot more about the subject to have an informed opinion.

crackerjack
06-12-2013, 12:25 PM
Brilliant post from Musa Okwonga.
http://www.okwonga.com/?p=869

sufi
10-12-2013, 10:11 PM
this too: http://marksteelinfo.com/tributes-have-flooded-in/ written a few days ago

today's pantomime was really disgusting

droid
12-12-2013, 10:29 AM
So much untold history being whitewashed yet again.

http://monthlyreview.org/2013/04/01/the-military-defeat-of-the-south-africans-in-angola

baboon2004
12-12-2013, 04:20 PM
Brilliant post from Musa Okwonga.
http://www.okwonga.com/?p=869

"You will make out that apartheid was just some sort of evil mystical space disease that suddenly fell from the heavens and settled on all of us, had us all, black or white, in its thrall"

This is contender for the quote of the year imo.

griftert
12-12-2013, 06:54 PM
Yeah that's the best, most precise thing I've read about Mandela's death thus far.

viktorvaughn
13-12-2013, 04:38 PM
silly reactions on facebook
http://www.lamebook.com/39980/

padraig (u.s.)
14-12-2013, 12:31 PM
when he does die I'm sure it will be very disgusting to hear certain people sing his praises, as it is to watch happen every year to MLK

pretty much

padraig (u.s.)
14-12-2013, 12:52 PM
sanding away the difficult edges of a complicated human life into secular sainthood is a real disservice to the man, his struggles and legacy, but it was inevitable. Cornel West calls it Santa Clausification, as he does for MLK, and he is right. and it will only get worse. it is their fate to have their worst opponents sing, safely after the fact, their praises. it is the fate of dangerous men to be defanged into bland signifiers. and it's all bitter ashes in the mouth, but what can you do?

craner
16-12-2013, 09:25 AM
If you ask me, Santa Claus has the most complicated human life of all.

Mr. Tea
16-12-2013, 10:56 AM
silly reactions on facebook
http://www.lamebook.com/39980/

People being dismissive of Mandela is, if not 'understandable' let alone remotely OK, then at least tiresomely predictable given the concentration of dickheads in the world and the tendency of the internet/social media to bring out the more dickheaded sides of people.

But what I can't process is the people who don't know who he was. Surely there's a good case to be made for his being one of a handful of the most important and influential people of the last hundred years?

sufi
18-12-2013, 12:07 PM
fog-donkey-the-only-honest-man-in-a-stadium-of-fools (http://www.zanews.co.za/zapped/2013/12/13/fog-donkey-the-only-honest-man-in-a-stadium-of-fools)