Nelson Mandela

Sectionfive said:

All getting quite unedifying isn't it. Though will probably be nothing compared to what comes after.

Been reading a lot of old parliamentary debates & newspapers. At least people were consistent in their contempt for Thatcher but there has been some shift in official attitudes the ANC an all around it. Will be interesting to see what part of both Mandela's and our own Government/industry's history gets left out.

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Also interesting how the 't' word has become too toxic to allow any nuance.

edit: sorry, just realised that was a bit oblique. What I mean is: Mandela is good and terrorism is bad, ergo Mandela can't have been a terrorist. Even though technically the ANC endorsed terror (though without using it particularly extensively) and Mandela played a key part in that and never disavowed it. The notion that terror can be 'good' can't currently be entertained.

Ha, until I read the second paragraph I thought that the t-word was Thatcher. Would have been equally true if it was I think.

He should have a full state funeral funded by the thatcher estate

crackerjack said:

Also interesting how the 't' word has become too toxic to allow any nuance.

edit: sorry, just realised that was a bit oblique. What I mean is: Mandela is good and terrorism is bad, ergo Mandela can't have been a terrorist. Even though technically the ANC endorsed terror (though without using it particularly extensively) and Mandela played a key part in that and never disavowed it. The notion that terror can be 'good' can't currently be entertained.

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Was there ever a time that the word wouldn't have had too much of a delegitimising connotation to attach it to the actions of 'the good guys'?

"Freedom fighter" has an altogether more wholesome ring to it, doesn't it?

Yep, pretty sure Thatcher wasn't ambivalent about who was in the wrong in describing the ANC as a terrorist organisation.

teh imternetz said:

A post circulating Facebook and elsewhere reads:

Nelson Mandela will die soon. Today, tomorrow, this week, next week. It won't be long. Remember this, he out-lived Thatcher. When he does die, and David Cameron jumps on the Mandela bandwagon, remember that in 1985 he was a top member of the Federation of Conservative Students, which produced the "Hang Mandela" posters. In 1989, Cameron worked in the Tory Policy Unit at Central Office and went on an anti-sanctions fact-finding mission to South Africa with a pro-apartheid lobby firm sponsored by PW Botha. Remember this when he tells the world he was inspired by Madiba.

The 1989 trip to South Africa, and its sponsorship by an anti-sanctions lobby firm is well documented.

I have found plenty of corroboration for the existence of the poster in question, produced by the Foundation of Conservative Students, but not the exact year it was produced, nor evidence that Cameron was a member of the organisation, and it so, when.

So, was David Cameron a "top member" of the FCS at the time these posters were produced? Is there evidence that he was instrumental in, or sympathetic to, the production of these posters?

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.

crackerjack said:

The notion that terror can be 'good' can't currently be entertained

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never has really. granted post-9/11 hysteria is such that it's virtually impossible to have any public discourse on the word "terrorism" but it's always been the case that allies are freedom fighters and enemies are terrorists and/or criminals. no one wants to say anything remotely good apartheid, including (maybe especially) people who supported it at the time, and no one wants to say anything bad about Mandela. the solution is to sand all the difficult edges off his legacy and make it a safe thing to embrace. it helps that he was in jail for the most vicious parts of the anti-apartheid struggle, granting distance from things like necklacing, and by the time he got out he looked like a kindly grandfather and that's how most people in the world know him.

when he does die I'm sure it will be very disgusting to hear certain people sing his praises, as it is to watch happen every year to MLK. however, I will say it wouldn't be the worst thing for him to be remembered as a conciliator, as his greatest achievement was his role in keeping post-apartheid SA from descending into a white/black (or Zulu/ANC) civil war bloodbath.

padraig (u.s.) said:

allies are freedom fighters and enemies are terrorists and/or criminals.

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I've always got the impression that the IRA has/had pretty widespread support among many Americans who would probably not consider themselves 'pro-terror', per se - is this accurate? How was the IRA's terror campaign reported in mainstream US media at the time compared to Islamist terror today, would you say?

http://dailycurrant.com/2013/08/05/robert-mugabe-blasts-coward-nelson-mandela/

awaiting Jacob Zuma's response with interest...

SA is fucked but honestly I feel incredibly sad for Zimbabwe. Did you hear that Mugabe is completely dismantling the Zim education system? they managed to rush a big initiative through during the election mania so it didn't really show up on the international radar, what with all the allegations of undemocratic process, fraud, fake ballots, intimidation, ridiculous propaganda, lies, fake data, etc flying about... Basically, despite the many years of zero investment, somehow Zimbabwe still has quite a good education system - despite the fact that towards the end of last year several huge shipments of new state school books were found in a municipal dump because the logistics company trousered the cash and denied all knowledge lol (the logistics company was part-owned by someone in the government lol... again, this was barely reported in any international media... let alone the Africa part of the BBC lolol). The point being that Mugabe's new state education measures are basically a way of him making it impossible for any of his people to go and work elsewhere in the future. There are currently between 3 and 5 million Zimbabweans in SA, local SA people don't like them much because the Zim immigrants are all so literate, numerate and skilled thanks to the soon-to-be-extinct education system, they get better jobs. Also they all speak good English, so the lucky ones who managed to get out can go and work in other places internationally too. So Mugabe is basically closing that down for the current and next generations. It's completely fucked. I need to stop reading and talking about this stuff... anyway...

also



get used to seeing this prick (edit: incredible dangerous man) around the place... especially now China is slowing its investment in SA, he can start mouthing off even more... completely untouchable, it seems.

routes said:

http://dailycurrant.com/2013/08/05/robert-mugabe-blasts-coward-nelson-mandela/

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That's interesting about Zimbabwe but I have to wonder if this 'Daily Currant' is a particularly trustworthy news source? :slanted:

I don't want to be "that guy", but Morgan Tsvangirai got way to close to Mugabe and it looks like he just wasn't ready for what was going on. You can read stories about Tsvangirai living in luxury with the wealthiest people in Harare. He was outmaneuvered by an aging despot for the millionth time.

padraig (u.s.) said:

never has really. granted post-9/11 hysteria is such that it's virtually impossible to have any public discourse on the word "terrorism" but it's always been the case that allies are freedom fighters and enemies are terrorists and/or criminals. no one wants to say anything remotely good apartheid, including (maybe especially) people who supported it at the time, and no one wants to say anything bad about Mandela. the solution is to sand all the difficult edges off his legacy and make it a safe thing to embrace. it helps that he was in jail for the most vicious parts of the anti-apartheid struggle, granting distance from things like necklacing, and by the time he got out he looked like a kindly grandfather and that's how most people in the world know him.

when he does die I'm sure it will be very disgusting to hear certain people sing his praises, as it is to watch happen every year to MLK. however, I will say it wouldn't be the worst thing for him to be remembered as a conciliator, as his greatest achievement was his role in keeping post-apartheid SA from descending into a white/black (or Zulu/ANC) civil war bloodbath.

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All true, but it's particularly notable in Mandela's case. Witness how Thatcher and the more extreme 80s Tories (such as the FCS) were vilified for calling him a terrorist (simplistic but objectively true) when their real crime was siding with apartheid against the ANC and the liberation struggle.

http://in.reuters.com/article/2013/12/05/mandela-legacy-idINDEE9B40JV20131205

an attempt to review Mandela's life as a man rather than a secular saint...makes a few interesting points, but I'd need to know a lot more about the subject to have an informed opinion.

Brilliant post from Musa Okwonga.
http://www.okwonga.com/?p=869

this too: http://marksteelinfo.com/tributes-have-flooded-in/ written a few days ago

today's pantomime was really disgusting