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baboon2004
28-07-2013, 08:59 PM
A question and an observation, about the aftermath of the case:

How come the protests in the US against the verdict were so small (if the media is to be believed, and except in Chicago, it seems)?

I went on a protest yday that started outside the US Embassy in London (fuck that building is like something out of Ghostbusters). Turnout was okay given the weather and the time elapsed since the verdict/its slide down the UK news agenda - what was so fucked up was the reaction of bystanders. Some were exhibiting the usual irritation with the disruption to their consumerism, or just blank incomprehension, both of which I can deal with. But a very substantial minority had looks of wry amusement/contempt, which I have never seen before in reaction to a protest, and can only conclude was racialised, given that proportion-wise the demo was made up of considerably more black people than other protest I've been on, plus of course the details of the case itself. Just a sickening experience.

IdleRich
29-07-2013, 08:03 AM
I've been following a lot of comments threads on this and what surprises me is how many people are willing to back the law on this and how vociferously. What (apart from hate) motivates someone to argue so powerfully and angrily for the rightness of the death of this man?

baboon2004
29-07-2013, 09:28 AM
Absolutely. I've also been shocked by how infrequently (in those type of comments threads) the simple fact that a 17-year old is needlessly dead has been mentioned. So many commenters have just skipped over this 'detail', going straight into quasi-legal arguments as you say. Needless to say, white 17-year old, totally different story.

Mr. Tea
29-07-2013, 10:20 AM
What (apart from hate) motivates someone to argue so powerfully and angrily for the rightness of the death of this man?

I think in America there are probably a lot of white people who look at this case and think "that could have been me" (meaning Zimmerman, not Martin), but that doesn't really apply in Britain because (apart from actual criminals) virtually the only people here who own guns are farmers.

Even the Daily Mail had a story the other day about how white people who kill black people in 'Stand Your Ground' states are 4.5 times more likely to be exonerated than when the victim is also white (although the same is true in non-SYG states but by a smaller margin).

Edit: here (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2363939/White-people-kill-black-people-Stand-Your-Ground-states-354-likely-cleared-murder-Fresh-questions-self-defence-law-wake-Zimmerman-verdict.html)

Hywel, that's very depressing about people's reactions to the protest but I guess some people just can't muster any compassion for someone in a situation that they can't directly imagine happening to themselves.

crackerjack
29-07-2013, 11:54 AM
I think racism is generally being re-legitimised in a way that would've been unthinkable 10-15 years ago. And yes, I blame the internet.

baboon2004
29-07-2013, 12:10 PM
Hywel, that's very depressing about people's reactions to the protest but I guess some people just can't muster any compassion for someone in a situation that they can't directly imagine happening to themselves.

Definitely true, and especially if (some of) the observers do not regard the person who has been killed as a person at all, but rather as an entirely expendable and threatening Other.

@crackerjack - it's really hard to compare eras, but that does appear to me to be right (and also with regard to anti-disability sentiment, misogyny etc). From everyday personal experience, I would say I hear people say things that are shockingly hateful more than I did 10 years back

Leo
29-07-2013, 03:07 PM
i still think a lot of it goes back to obama: his election (and re-election against the rich capitalist white guy) has brought out a level of racism to the surface in many parts of the country. it was probably always there, but more restrained and often unspoken. now lots of people in the south and rural areas talk openly about wanting to take their country back, with the implication being "back from the liberals/gays/black/hispanics" who have threatened their comfortable way of life. add in the NRA's second amendment frenzy and it's the perfect cocktail for increased racial strife.

IdleRich
29-07-2013, 05:16 PM
"So many commenters have just skipped over this 'detail', going straight into quasi-legal arguments as you say"
Exactly. And getting really angry about it too.
It does seem that, quite apart from the race issue, the "stand your ground law" is ludicrous in that a man can admit to killing someone and then claim self-defence and the burden of proof falls on the prosecution to show that it wasn't self-defence whereas in the normal course of events you would expect the person who has admitted to killing someone to need to come up with some pretty fucking good evidence that their life was under threat.

crackerjack
29-07-2013, 05:39 PM
i still think a lot of it goes back to obama: his election (and re-election against the rich capitalist white guy) has brought out a level of racism to the surface in many parts of the country. it was probably always there, but more restrained and often unspoken. now lots of people in the south and rural areas talk openly about wanting to take their country back, with the implication being "back from the liberals/gays/black/hispanics" who have threatened their comfortable way of life. add in the NRA's second amendment frenzy and it's the perfect cocktail for increased racial strife.

Can see this in the US, obviously, and also the idea that there's a black president now, so racism is dead so STFU going on about racist cops/judges etc etc.

But the same thing is happening here. I know comments boxes aren't exactly an infallible sample, but it's now entirely mainstream there - not just at places like Telegraph (where it's quite literally the majority of commenters when the subject is race/immigration-related and often when it's not), but in very significant numbers at more liberal (or less hysterically rightwing, at least) sites.

I thought this racist van shit was gonna backfire spectacularly. But now they're talking of rolling it out nationally. It's pure dog whistle racism and it's fucking terrifying.
http://www.newstatesman.com/business/2013/07/home-offices-go-home-campaign-has-all-hallmarks-classic-pr-stunt

zhao
29-07-2013, 06:58 PM
Also has a lot to do with economic recession and anxiety. Fingers start pointing, blame finds scapegoats, and we have a global movement toward militarization, tightening borders, apartheid, and revival of Eugenics type racial "science".

instead of focusing on fighting the forces which stops implementation of the cures for our collective ills which are surely there, ready, and available.

padraig (u.s.)
29-07-2013, 08:15 PM
Also has a lot to do with economic recession and anxiety

this. absolutely this. a booming economy papers over many, many cracks in society but as soon as it tanks all the tensions that were lurking beneath the surface reemerge with a vengeance. struggling people blame scapegoats for their problems. combine that w/unease caused by the US's transition from white majority to racial plurality, and the fact that it's much easier to blame illegal immigrants or black teenagers than it is to grapple with enormously and complex economic matters that are beyond many experts, let alone laypeople. can't say I agree w/zhao about readily available cures, or their realistic chances of ever being implemented, but the diagnosis is correct.

padraig (u.s.)
29-07-2013, 08:25 PM
also specifically about Trayvon:

-the right-wing media - the whole media, tbh - did a fantastic job of mucking up the debate on this from the get-go. if anything Trayvon is a more sympathetic victim than, say, Rodney King or even Oscar Grant but it turned into a morass of Florida gun laws, whether or not Zimmerman is "white" and whether that matters, whether or not it's a crime to wear a fucking hoodie, etc etc
-speaking of Oscar Grant, a lot of people already have very little faith in the American justice system. it's difficult to be continually disappointed and outraged by something you don't believe in to begin with. even tho Oakland exploded over Oscar twice (once when it happened and once after that bullshit trial) the national reaction was, iirc, not very strong. of course now that's it a movie that won Sundance or whatever movie critics can rhapsodize over it:rolleyes:. obviously, someone should get one of the other kids from the Wire to star in a Trayvon Martin flick.

IdleRich
29-07-2013, 08:33 PM
Yeah, totally true about whether Zimmerman is white or how hard he was hit. Side-issues that are barely worth thinking about which have become the debate.

Leo
29-07-2013, 09:25 PM
this. absolutely this. a booming economy papers over many, many cracks in society but as soon as it tanks all the tensions that were lurking beneath the surface reemerge with a vengeance. struggling people blame scapegoats for their problems. combine that w/unease caused by the US's transition from white majority to racial plurality, and the fact that it's much easier to blame illegal immigrants or black teenagers than it is to grapple with enormously and complex economic matters that are beyond many experts, let alone laypeople. can't say I agree w/zhao about readily available cures, or their realistic chances of ever being implemented, but the diagnosis is correct.

yup, both of you nailed it.

a friend of mine recently said "forget everything else. an adult shot and killed a kid, isn't that wrong?"

zhao
29-07-2013, 10:28 PM
can't say I agree w/zhao about readily available cures, or their realistic chances of ever being implemented

don't want to derail, just to clarify.
surely we all know common sensical, easy cures:

"surplus wealth" taxes for the rich and "excess profits" taxes for big corporations.
put these funds into development and ending poverty.
unkilll the electric car.
etc.

but i never said nuttin about the existence of any realistic chances of their implementation...

Mr. Tea
30-07-2013, 12:16 PM
What's particularly fucked-up is the reaction from the gun lobby in cases like this. There's no admission that it's an egregious exception to (what they would see as) the generally fair and morally defensible practice of public gun ownership, or even any regret over a tragic accident - instead, you get the impression that a lot of people simply see the fatal shooting of an unarmed black teenager as fundamentally a good thing.


An Ohio political action committee is raising money to buy George Zimmerman a new gun, the group announced on its website Saturday.

The Buckeye Firearms Foundation wants to provide the man who shot and killed Trayvon Martin "with the funds he needs to replace his firearm, holster, and other gear."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/22/george-zimmerman-new-gun_n_3634975.html

owengriffiths
01-08-2013, 12:53 PM
I'd be interested to know

a) how does a gated community have so many robberies.
b) curtain twitcher extraordinaire should have probably known his victim by sight as he was a resident.
c) have any of the other black people in the estate upped sticks since the shooting.

Mr. Tea
11-01-2014, 07:57 PM
Hmm, was just wondering if any USsensians (or close followers of American news) have seen much coverage of the Mark Duggan case over there? Not that it's a particularly close parallel to the Martin case but it surely touches many of the same sorts of nerves.

Leo
11-01-2014, 10:32 PM
Hmm, was just wondering if any USsensians (or close followers of American news) have seen much coverage of the Mark Duggan case over there? Not that it's a particularly close parallel to the Martin case but it surely touches many of the same sorts of nerves.

no coverage here. the only reason i recognize the name is from occasionally reading the guardian online, so some people here might be aware that way but no coverage by US media that i've seen.

Mr. Tea
12-01-2014, 04:35 PM
I guess in America 'black guy shot by cops' is probably about as newsworthy as 'dog fouls pavement'...

baboon2004
13-01-2014, 10:20 AM
While shooting deaths are low, total number of deaths in the UK following contact with the police since 1990 is 1476 (of which 144 non-white people), which I find staggering. The kind of figure the govt would trot out to show how 'uncivilised' other countries are - the police are totally out of control and virtually beyond prosecution.

Mr. Tea
13-01-2014, 10:43 AM
Yeah, I saw those figures in a k-punk blog 'you' put up on FB the other day. Terrifying. And yes, I totally agree that it gives the lie to the idea that there are countries where cops are 'bad' and then lovely civilized Britain where cops are 'good'. Sure, some places are a lot worse than the UK but being a bit better than somewhere that's absolutely terrible is not really a ringing endorsement.

Interesting that "only" a tenth of those killed have been non-white, when you consider the make-up of the city. Not that that makes it any less bad, obviously.

crackerjack
13-01-2014, 12:48 PM
Interesting that "only" a tenth of those killed have been non-white, when you consider the make-up of the city. Not that that makes it any less bad, obviously.

Those are UK figures, according to Baboon - not just London. Although 10% is roughly in line with the non-white population as a whole, I'd have thought.

What does 'contact with the police' mean, though? Someone hanging himself in his cell? Old friend of mine was taken to the cells one night cos the police saw him loitering on a footbridge over a bypass. They thought he was a suicide risk. He insisted he'd done nothing wrong and demanded to be released. He went straight back to that bridge and jumped to his death. Would that count as 'contact with the police'?

Mr. Tea
13-01-2014, 01:37 PM
Those are UK figures, according to Baboon - not just London. Although 10% is roughly in line with the non-white population as a whole, I'd have thought.

Oh I missed that bit, I thought it was just for the Met.


What does 'contact with the police' mean, though? Someone hanging himself in his cell? Old friend of mine was taken to the cells one night cos the police saw him loitering on a footbridge over a bypass. They thought he was a suicide risk. He insisted he'd done nothing wrong and demanded to be released. He went straight back to that bridge and jumped to his death. Would that count as 'contact with the police'?

Yeah, I guess it's kind of ambiguous. But it's well known that a lot of deaths happen in custody, where suicidal people are supposed to be protected from the risk of self-harm. So even a death that's 100% self-caused points to a failure of care if it happens on police property.

Very sorry to hear about your friend, that's awful.

crackerjack
13-01-2014, 02:13 PM
Very sorry to hear about your friend, that's awful.

It was decades ago, so I'm long over it - but thanks.

baboon2004
15-01-2014, 10:30 AM
Those are UK figures, according to Baboon - not just London. Although 10% is roughly in line with the non-white population as a whole, I'd have thought.

What does 'contact with the police' mean, though? Someone hanging himself in his cell? Old friend of mine was taken to the cells one night cos the police saw him loitering on a footbridge over a bypass. They thought he was a suicide risk. He insisted he'd done nothing wrong and demanded to be released. He went straight back to that bridge and jumped to his death. Would that count as 'contact with the police'?

Only just seen this - sorry about your friend, that's absolutely terrible.

In answer to the question, I don't know - I tried to find how Inquest compile their stats, but couldn't locate the relevant part. I think 900-odd deaths happen in custody, the rest outside in various circumstances.

I went to the Mark Duggan vigil in Tottenham on Saturday, and there were speeches by various family members of other men and women (mainly those men and women were black, but not exclusively) killed by the police - Sean Rigg, Leon Biggs, Azelle Rodney. Hearing the stories of how they died was just numbingly horrific. And how as a father/mother/sister/brother/friend do you ever get over that, with no justice ever materialising?

Leo
25-11-2014, 07:40 PM
In related news...

https://scontent-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/t31.0-8/10608368_10204158929267823_6691880067703029840_o.j pg

rubberdingyrapids
01-12-2014, 04:11 PM
While shooting deaths are low, total number of deaths in the UK following contact with the police since 1990 is 1476 (of which 144 non-white people), which I find staggering. The kind of figure the govt would trot out to show how 'uncivilised' other countries are - the police are totally out of control and virtually beyond prosecution.

i dont want to play that figure down but id be interested to know where it compares to other countries.

baboon2004
02-12-2014, 08:32 PM
It's a fair question. While the figure is phenomenally high, I don't really know how it compares to others. No doubt some way below the US, which is not saying much of course. Looked for figures for France and Germany, not found anything yet, and probably won't if I persist in searching in English...

yyaldrin
04-12-2014, 03:30 PM
Found an article on the subject that is based on a Dutch study. It covers the period between 1995-2005

Holland: 1/5.000.000 (an average of 1 death on every five million inhabitants)
France: 1/6.000.000
Denmark: 1/7.000.000
Portugal: 1/8.000.000
Germany: 1/14.000.000
England: 1/27.000.000

British number was actually the lowest, highest were those of Canada and the U.S. (article didn't give a number).

http://www.volkskrant.nl/binnenland/relatief-veel-doden-door-politiekogels~a372336/

Mr. Tea
04-12-2014, 04:07 PM
Found an article on the subject that is based on a Dutch study. It covers the period between 1995-2005

Holland: 1/5.000.000 (an average of 1 death on every five million inhabitants)
France: 1/6.000.000
Denmark: 1/7.000.000
Portugal: 1/8.000.000
Germany: 1/14.000.000
England: 1/27.000.000

British number was actually the lowest, highest were those of Canada and the U.S. (article didn't give a number).

http://www.volkskrant.nl/binnenland/relatief-veel-doden-door-politiekogels~a372336/

I assume those numbers are for shootings only, right? I expect the British rates would be higher if they included people dying by suffocation or heart failure while being, um, over-enthusiastically apprehended...

Tangentially related, but I can only assume there's going to be the usual annual controversy-fest over Saint Nicholas' Eve tomorrow? I heard somewhere that a lot of places had decided to ban Zwarte Piet this year.

Mr. Tea
12-05-2016, 02:01 PM
George Zimmerman to auction gun he used to kill Trayvon Martin (http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/may/12/george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin-gun-auction?CMP=fb_gu)


Zimmerman wrote that he was “proud to announce” that a portion of the proceeds raised would be used to “fight BLM [Black Lives Matter] violence against Law Enforcement officers” as well as ending the career of Angela Corey, his prosecutor – “and Hillary Clinton’s anti-firearm rhetoric”.

He signed off “your friend, George M. Zimmerman” and “Si vis pacem, para bellum” – the Latin adage, “If you want peace, prepare for war”.

Zimmerman was reportedly banned from Twitter in December but used the platform to voice similar views, including an apparent reference to Martin as a “moron”, a description of the BLM movement as “black slime matters” and a retweet of a post showing Martin’s lifeless body with the caption, “Z-man is a one-man army”.

Wow. This guy is really determined to prove that personal morality has no absolute zero, isn't he?

droid
07-07-2016, 10:06 AM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cmrx7DpWYAQceJm.jpg:large

Mr. Tea
08-07-2016, 09:06 AM
Nothing here yet about the shootings of Alton Sterling and Philando Castile and anti-police retaliation (five cops shot dead by SNIPER FIRE in Dallas)?

It seems hardly hyperbolic to talk of an unofficial race war currently happening in the USA.

Corpsey
08-07-2016, 09:26 AM
Felt inevitable that cops would be shot with all these incidents of police brutality, but certainly didn't expect a coordinated sniper attack.

Militarise your police force, arm your citizens and subject an entire race and class to persistent discrimination and often lethal force and you've got the recipe for a domestic war. Also the fact that the justice system is manifestly unjust, especially if you happen to be black, and it's not surprising that people feel violence is the best recourse.

The argument from pro-gun people that guns are needed for self-defence against the government has always seemed alien to me but from the POV of african-americans, I can kind of see the point of it. If your police force was racist, armed and willing to kill you just for the colour of your skin (without fear of legal reprisals), wouldn't YOU want a gun?

vimothy
08-07-2016, 09:34 AM
Scott Alexander had an interesting post a while back where he actually looks at some data surrounding racial disparities and police shootings:


A topical issue these days. Once again, the same dynamic at play. We know black people are affected disproportionately to their representation in the population, but is a result of police racism or disproportionate criminality?

Mother Jones magazine has an unexpectedly beautiful presentation of the data for us:

http://slatestarcodex.com/blog_images/shootinggraph.jpg

The fourth bar seems like what we’re looking for. You could go with the fifth bar, but then you’re just adding noise of who did or didn’t duck out of the way fast enough.

As you can see, a person shot at by a police officer is more than twice as likely to be black as the average member of the general population. But, crucially, they are less likely to be black than the average violent shooter or the average person who shoots at the police.

We assume that the reason an officer shoots a suspect is because that officer believes the suspect is about to shoot or attack the officer. So if the officer were perfectly unbiased, then the racial distribution of people shot by officers would look exactly like the distribution of dangerous attackers. If it’s blacker than the distribution of dangerous attackers, the police are misidentifying blacks as dangerous attackers.

But In fact, the people shot by police are less black than the people shooting police or the violent shooters police are presumably worried about. This provides very strong evidence that, at least in New York, the police are not disproportionately shooting black people and appear to be making a special effort to avoid it.

For some reason most of the studies I could get here were pretty old, but with that caveat, this is also the conclusion of Milton (1977) looking at police departments in general, and Fyfe (1978), who analyzes older New York City data and comes to the same conclusion. However, the same researcher analyzes police shootings in Memphis and finds that these do show clear evidence of anti-minority bias, sometimes up to a 6x greater risk for blacks even after adjusting for likely confounders. The big difference seems to be that NYC officers are trained to fire only to protect their own lives from armed and dangerous suspects, but Memphis officers are (were? the study looks at data from 1970) allowed to shoot property crime suspects attempting to flee. The latter seems a lot more problematic and probably allows more room for officer bias to get through.

[EDIT: A commenter pointed out to me that Tennessee vs. Garner banned this practice in the late 1980s, meaning Memphis’ shooting rate should be lower and possibly less biased now]

The same guy looks at the race of officers involved and finds that “the data do not clearly support the contention that white [officers] had little regard for the lives of minorities”. In fact, most studies find white officers are disproportionately more likely to shoot white suspects, and black officers disproportionately more likely to shoot black suspects. This makes sense since officers are often assigned to race-congruent neighborhoods, but sure screws up the relevant narrative.

Summary: New York City data suggests no bias of officers towards shooting black suspects compared with their representation among dangerous police encounters, and if anything the reverse effect. Data from Memphis in 1970 suggests a strong bias towards shooting black suspects, probably because they shoot fleeing suspects in addition to potentially dangerous suspects, but this practice has since stopped. Older national data skews more toward the New York City side with little evidence of racial bias, but I don’t know of any recent studies which have compared the race of shooting victims to the race of dangerous attackers on a national level. There is no support for the contention that white officers are more likely than officers of other races to shoot black suspects.

From: http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/11/25/race-and-justice-much-more-than-you-wanted-to-know/

droid
08-07-2016, 09:43 AM
Nothing here yet about the shootings of Alton Sterling and Philando Castile and anti-police retaliation (five cops shot dead by SNIPER FIRE in Dallas)?

It seems hardly hyperbolic to talk of an unofficial race war currently happening in the USA.

Yeah, thats why I posted the image above.

Dallas seems unclear at the moment, but I was just thinking yesterday that an armed black militant response is inevitable.

Mr. Tea
08-07-2016, 09:49 AM
...but is a result of police racism or disproportionate criminality?

I think this is a rather disingenuous question. Yes, black men commit a disproportionate amount of street-level crime including gun crime but just to say "oh well of course cops therefore going be more likely to shoot them" doesn't come close to justifying how willing cops are to shoot unarmed black men when they're either involved in extremely trivial offences (e.g. Michael Brown) or doing nothing wrong at all (e.g. Philando Castile, by the sound of it - reaching for his licence after being pulled over for a broken taillight, FFS!).

Mr. Tea
08-07-2016, 09:50 AM
Yeah, thats why I posted the image above.

Dallas seems unclear at the moment, but I was just thinking yesterday that an armed black militant response is inevitable.

Well a war is a two-way thing - I can't recall a situation with this kind of conscious, organized retaliation, which is why I used the word 'war'.

vimothy
08-07-2016, 09:56 AM
But the question is how willing are the US police to shoot black men? That's a question about general trends, so it's not enough to simply look at a few specific cases: "In fact, most studies find white officers are disproportionately more likely to shoot white suspects, and black officers disproportionately more likely to shoot black suspects. This makes sense since officers are often assigned to race-congruent neighborhoods, but sure screws up the relevant narrative."

baboon2004
08-07-2016, 09:57 AM
Or that's there been an unofficial race war for a while, but now it's a two-sided war, possibly.

@Vimothy - ffs, that's your response?! Wow.

droid
08-07-2016, 10:01 AM
Black Panthers, Black liberation army...

'Urban Guerilla' by Oppenheimer is an interesting read - basically details plans to prepare for widespread urban warfare against black and left groups in the wake of the Chicago riots and the rise of militancy in the mid-late 60's. This goes waaaayyy back.

droid
08-07-2016, 10:03 AM
Scott Alexander had an interesting post a while back where he actually looks at some data surrounding racial disparities and police shootings:
From: http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/11/25/race-and-justice-much-more-than-you-wanted-to-know/

http://static1.squarespace.com/static/54ecf211e4b0ed744420c5b6/t/569534449cadb69b288bedee/1452618828280/2015policekillingsunarmed.jpeg

Mr. Tea
08-07-2016, 10:12 AM
Black Panthers, Black liberation army...

'Urban Guerilla' by Oppenheimer is an interesting read - basically details plans to prepare for widespread urban warfare against black and left groups in the wake of the Chicago riots and the rise of militancy in the mid-late 60's. This goes waaaayyy back.

Sure, but I'm talking about recent history, stuff I can remember actually hearing about in the news.

Mr. Tea
08-07-2016, 10:14 AM
http://static1.squarespace.com/static/54ecf211e4b0ed744420c5b6/t/569534449cadb69b288bedee/1452618828280/2015policekillingsunarmed.jpeg

And Native Americans are even more likely to be killed by police than black people:

http://thefreethoughtproject.com/police-killing-native-americans-higher-rate-race-talking/

Although obviously the absolute numbers are much lower.

droid
08-07-2016, 10:17 AM
Sure, but I'm talking about recent history, stuff I can remember actually hearing about in the news.

Well, crack was a very successful strategy for quite some time.

luka
08-07-2016, 10:35 AM
jesus, vimothy you've really fallen deep down that rabbit hole lad

luka
09-07-2016, 01:08 PM
is anyone else sort of shitting themselves that they killed that sniper with a robot?

Corpsey
09-07-2016, 01:57 PM
That is mad, this is the next stage of weaponry isn't it? And the government can afford better robots. Good luck overthrowing them with guns, eh?

Rise of the machines is real.

Corpsey
09-07-2016, 01:59 PM
Did anyone see the video of this guy throwing dummy shots into a wall to wrong foot the cop while he strafed around him? Goes to show how military training 'pays off'. Lucky, in a horrible way, that he only wanted to get cops cos he could have killed dozens of people.

Edit: don't want to make out I'm giving this guy props or anything.

rubberdingyrapids
11-07-2016, 11:47 AM
is anyone else sort of shitting themselves that they killed that sniper with a robot?

it will be the new bobby on the beat.

owengriffiths
11-07-2016, 02:49 PM
I think the robot was one of those bomb disposal robots, only they sellotaped a bomb on it instead. A very expensive but pretty crude thing to do, no doubt a desperate spur of the moment idea. You could probably do the same thing yourself with a remote control car and a video camera- assuming you have access to explosives. Which begs the question, where did that come from and who approved it's use. The last time the US police had access to bombs they killed 10 people and destroyed 60 houses

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOVE

luka
11-07-2016, 03:33 PM
I'd never heard of that fuckun unreal

droid
12-07-2016, 02:36 PM
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/VZ_i8tuubFahtJqIoIOgW5koaQea-4xBsJqaU5_KTUYCCz-lY7kIz9wxU2UyyEUgwT7fpLji-bAdg_i7zUsR7SSeEuA

Risk ratio of being shot whilst unarmed - black to white.

Corpsey
12-07-2016, 03:37 PM
So does that mean you can be up to 22,800 times more likely to be shot if you're black?

Also, is that by police, or just in general?

droid
12-07-2016, 03:54 PM
Nope - its 22.883.

In the red areas of the map you are roughly 22.883 times more likely to be shot by the Police when black and unarmed than when white and unarmed.

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0141854

trza
12-07-2016, 04:55 PM
I once had to critique reference maps for a part time job and geography class. That map is a massive failure of a map. 99% of the land space on the map has no data. The differences between different cities, where most of the data is, could be shown in a chart. It would be much clearer. The one county with the highest death rate in the map is notorious as the entry point of drugs from Latin America and the Caribbean.

droid
12-07-2016, 05:01 PM
lol. Ive linked to the extended study. Read it and stfu.

baboon2004
12-07-2016, 07:49 PM
I once had to critique reference maps for a part time job and geography class. That map is a massive failure of a map. 99% of the land space on the map has no data. The differences between different cities, where most of the data is, could be shown in a chart. It would be much clearer. The one county with the highest death rate in the map is notorious as the entry point of drugs from Latin America and the Caribbean.

Once we get past the background info about what you did for your GCSEs, what are you talking about? It's useful as a rough guide to the relative likelihood of being shot while unarmed in major urban areas of the US.

vimothy
12-07-2016, 09:57 PM
That's an interesting paper, but it doesn't show relative risk ratios given that one is in an encounter with the police ("the data cannot speak to the relative risk of being shot by a police officer conditional on being encountered by police").