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Patrick Swayze
03-03-2014, 03:45 PM
Are we all fucked? Can I stop looking for a job?

HMGovt
03-03-2014, 07:04 PM
If anything does properly kick off, don't the Russians control most of our gas?

If it properly kicks off, heating our homes won't be a problem.:eek:

baboon2004
04-03-2014, 12:08 AM
Are we all fucked? Can I stop looking for a job?

So true. The only thing definitely worse than mutual assured destruction is writing cover letters.

Slothrop
04-03-2014, 01:01 AM
AFAICT most Western - and particularly EU - Governments are taking the line that of Russia doesn't have a word with itself PDQ them they're definitely going to do some fairly serious thinking about maybe imposing some sort of economic and/or diplomatic sanctions that will be so serious that they're pretty definitely going to make Russia think twice about what they're doing. But probably not so serious that they'll make Russia think twice about supplying oil and gas to most of Europe. Or make Russian oligarchs pull out their investment in our economies. Or damage international trade in general. Obviously we're thoroughly committed to our support for national sovereignty, but we wouldn't want to do anything rash, now, would we...

So I think all-out thermonuclear heck is probably a fair way off.

crackerjack
04-03-2014, 06:58 PM
Thought the bits of this I managed to read in between pretending to work looked pretty interesting - and relatively optimistic.

http://world.time.com/2014/03/03/putin-ukraine-crimea-russia/#ixzz2v0dBySUR

crackerjack
04-03-2014, 07:01 PM
If anything does properly kick off, don't the Russians control most of our gas?

Not most, just more than anyone else - and less than it used to.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-26418664

zhao
05-03-2014, 08:44 AM
Ukraine’s statement at the UN that 16,000 Russian soldiers have been deployed to Crimea has caused a frenzy among Western media which chooses to ignore that those troops have been there since the late 1990s in accordance with a Kiev-Moscow agreement.

http://rt.com/news/russian-troops-crimea-ukraine-816/

?

Slothrop
05-03-2014, 11:28 AM
The UK currently has approx 20,000 troops stationed in Germany, but there's probably be some controversy if they started blockading airports.

The setup of the interim government in Kiev is interesting though. I wasn't paying enough attention when Yanukovych was outed - how strong actually is their claim to legitimacy, and what's the basis for Putin's talk about "neo-fascists, ultra-nationalists and anti-semites"? Presumably it's not an all-out neo-nazi coup, but it seems like an odd thing to make up entirely, and the likes of Svoboda don't seem to be particularly nice, something which is (perhaps unsurprisingly) passed over in most of the western media...

crackerjack
05-03-2014, 11:28 AM
http://rt.com/news/russian-troops-crimea-ukraine-816/

?

RT isn't a news channel any more than Fox News (worse, in fact, since Fox just works on behalf of the GOP right rather than being wholly owned by it).

droid
05-03-2014, 11:34 AM
There was a reasonably strong nazi presence in the demonstrations, and 4 nazi member of the the new government AFAIK.

crackerjack
05-03-2014, 11:35 AM
The UK currently has approx 20,000 troops stationed in Germany, but there's probably be some controversy if they started blockading airports.

The setup of the interim government in Kiev is interesting though. I wasn't paying enough attention when Yanukovych was outed - how strong actually is their claim to legitimacy, and what's the basis for Putin's talk about "neo-fascists, ultra-nationalists and anti-semites"? Presumably it's not an all-out neo-nazi coup, but it seems like an odd thing to make up entirely, and the likes of Svoboda don't seem to be particularly nice, something which is (perhaps unsurprisingly) passed over in most of the western media...

There's been a fair bit of attention paid to far-right involvement, especially during the revolution itself. There's obviously issues around it and the far-right holding 6 (I think) ministries - but pretty clear the revolution had popular support. And the bottom line is Yanukovych brought out snipers to murder protestors in the centre of Kiev.

edit: more on the far right here http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/03/01/can-ukraine-control-its-far-right-ultranationalists.html

edit again: Meant to link to this, which makes the case that far too much attention has been paid to far-right involvement http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2014/mar/01/ukraine-haze-propaganda/

droid
05-03-2014, 12:44 PM
Obv this is an awful situation, but I've been following the RT and independent media line on this for a while and if you're interested in media and propaganda its fascinating, as are many of the interactions between the west and the other power blocs.

There was a Russian guy on Irish radio this morning basically pushing the neo-nazi line, saying it was a coup, and the army is there to support Russian Ukrainians etc. He was challenged very forcibly by the presenter and was basically shouted down as the Russian proceeded to mock Western intervention and media coverage as propaganda - and he was, to an extent, correct. Look at the coverage of the MB and then demonstrations in Egypt. Although there was violence, there was no symbolic equivalent of full on nazi funeral ceremonies, and yet the MB demonstrators were demonised by mere association.

droid
05-03-2014, 12:48 PM
edit again: Meant to link to this, which makes the case that far too much attention has been paid to far-right involvement http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2014/mar/01/ukraine-haze-propaganda/

This may be true, but I followed this with interest and saw absolutely no mention whatsoever (in the Irish press/radio/TV) of the neo-nazi angle until after Yuknavich was deposed. Not one.

crackerjack
05-03-2014, 12:58 PM
This may be true, but I followed this with interest and saw absolutely no mention whatsoever (in the Irish press/radio/TV) of the neo-nazi angle until after Yuknavich was deposed. Not one.

There was quite a lot of talk of ultra-nationalist involvement on C4 News and, I think, BBC during the demos. They didn't go into great depth about who they were or how far they were influencing events, but their involvement was regularly mentioned.

Mr. Tea
05-03-2014, 03:20 PM
edit again: Meant to link to this, which makes the case that far too much attention has been paid to far-right involvement http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2014/mar/01/ukraine-haze-propaganda/

I haven't been following this as closely as some clearly have, but this passage leaped out at me:


The Russian press presented the protest as part of a larger gay conspiracy. The Ukrainian regime instructed its riot police that the opposition was led by a larger Jewish conspiracy. Meanwhile, both regimes informed the outside world that the protestors were Nazis. Almost nobody in the West seemed to notice this contradiction.

It just struck a chord with something you see even with the modern far right in Britain: that the Nazis remain the go-to historical bogeymen not only for socialists, liberals and mainstream conservatives but even for groups whose ideology is in some respects not a million miles removed from that of the Third Reich.

crackerjack
05-03-2014, 07:03 PM
Big C4 News report into far-right involvement in new regime, I believe

crackerjack
05-03-2014, 11:03 PM
Reasons to be cheerful (all supposition and hunches but not too far fetched)
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2014/03/vladimir-putin-is-losing-the-battle-for-ukraine/?utm_source=rsseasons

sufi
06-03-2014, 10:45 AM
edit again: Meant to link to this, which makes the case that far too much attention has been paid to far-right involvement http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2014/mar/01/ukraine-haze-propaganda/this one for example: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/29/ukraine-fascists-oligarchs-eu-nato-expansion

my Ukrainian mate just reposted this on FB https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/t1/1619627_10203373018705946_1482276654_n.jpgfascist zombies eeek

crackerjack
06-03-2014, 01:42 PM
this one for example: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/29/ukraine-fascists-oligarchs-eu-nato-expansion

my Ukrainian mate just reposted this on FB https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/t1/1619627_10203373018705946_1482276654_n.jpgfascist zombies eeek

Can't be arsed reading that Milne piece. Read the turd they ran from Jonathan Steele a few days ago and that was quite enough tankie bullshit from the Guardian for one week.

sufi
06-03-2014, 03:59 PM
ha, this one may also not be up your street then How and why the U.S. government aided a coup led by neo-Nazis in Ukraine (http://www.pslweb.org/liberationnews/news/why-us-aided-ukraine-coup-russia.html)

trza
06-03-2014, 04:09 PM
Damn, RT host has opinions on the commercialization of electronic music:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxfxconVoNM

craner
06-03-2014, 08:23 PM
Just a few points on the fascist administration in Ukraine and their honourable Kremlin foes.

1) There is no fascist administration in Ukraine. The current interim administration -- the purpose of which is to rescue the country’s economy, return the Rada to a parliamentary system by reducing presidential power, and to pave the way for new elections -- consists of a range of parties and politicians who are only united by the fact that they opposed the Yanukovych regime, led Euromaidan and do not belong to the Party of Regions.

The PM Arseniy Yatsenyuk is leader of Tymoshenko’s Fatherland party, a mainstream party with a mixture liberal, conservative and nationalist tendencies. Other positions are filled by Tymoshenko allies, veterans of the Yushchenko party, and academics and activists like Pavlo Sheremeta and Tetyana Chornovol. No fascists here -- no Russell Brands for you, but a number of impressive people, no less. Phew. Panic over.

2) Not quite. There are indeed some fascists in the administration. Members of the far right nationalist parties Svoboda and Right Sector currently hold the posts of the National Security Chief and his deputy, the Deputy Prime Minister and the Ministers of ecology and agriculture. The creeps in these posts are extremists, no way around it, and the only positive spin you can put on this is: they do not have key or necessarily consequential posts. They have been kept from the power centre. Contrary to C4 claims (http://www.channel4.com/news/svoboda-ministers-ukraine-new-government-far-right), fascists haven’t filled the vacuum: the Tymoshenko bloc has. Oleh Tyahnybok has not been given a government post, you will be relieved to learn if you have followed and read Sufi’s link to the website of “Liberation.” Also, scanning the picture of Victoria Nuland and attendant caption in that article, it should be noted that the other two people in it are Yatsenyuk and Viktali Klitschko, who are not fascist leaders.

The reason Svoboda has been given positions in the government is because their role in the demonstrations grew as events became more violent. By the time Yanukovych fled it would have been suicidal to have excluded Svoboda from any new administration. This is a tragic accommodation brought about by the pace and severity of events but it is not a fascist coup d'état or a fascist government or a fascist government imposed by the West in a coup d'état. Also, there will be an election soon, and then we will see how things stand. It could get far worse, of course, but it could also get better. The Ukrainians are not a nation of fascists.

3) Neo-Nazi groups on the streets are not political parties or in government, and they were not the driving force of Euromaidan, despite the spurious smears of Putin sympathisers and apologists. They were the ugly cutting-edge of the anti-Berkut violence that exploded, under provocation and sniping, in February. At the height of the violence it was a bit like the dynamic between the FSA and the Islamist groups in Syria last year: at extreme moments you are no longer able to pick your allies, which is dangerous. The point is, of all the ridiculous slurs to be thrown at Euromaidan during Nov-Jan, the claim that it was a neo-Nazi-led revolt was probably the most absurd. February was uglier, and ended with a government with fascists in post, but also a government dominated by politicians who had been fighting for democracy and against corruption for years and were in no way, in any analysis, fascists or Nazis or far-rightists. There is also the question of fake parties and provocateurs, a prevalent Putinist tactic that bedevils the region, foreshadowed by the intriguing antics of the supposedly pro-Yushchenko Ukrainian National Assembly in 2004 (http://anton-shekhovtsov.blogspot.de/2014/02/pro-russian-network-behind-anti.html).

4) Ukrainian ultra-nationalists are anti-Russian because their ideology is built on a specifically Ukrainian ethno-cultural mythos which is, by definition, in contest with Russian supremacist claims. They don’t have many allies among the other European far-right parties and movements, however, who generally admire and support Putinism and post-Soviet Russian nationalism (including the BNP and Front National, both rooting for Putin right now; Nick Griffin has been introduced as “European MP in Damascus with fact-finding mission” (http://rt.com/op-edge/syria-secular-us-weapons-581/) on Russia Today previously).

Putin also has a small core of admirers among reactionary Tories and Ron Paulites, which is not so surprising given the nature of his party, regime, and its antipathy towards America, the EU, NATO, democracy, ethnic minorities, Muslims, internationalists, fags, artists, weirdos, etc.

5) Putin himself is not the exemplar of Russian nationalism, but is a potent embodiment and vessel for it. This becomes important when you look a bit closer at his party and the nationalist groups and movements surrounding it and him, from the hawks who do not believe Ukraine and Belarus are even independent entities to the Eurasianist fantasists with their blend of Soviet expansionism, neo-Nazism and pan-fascism. You can add Putin’s own import of Andropov-era KGB tactics (controlled democracy, fake parties), mafia state kleptocracy, Stalin-era Great Patriotic War nostalgia, pan-Slavism, fake provocateur Zhirinovsky, etc. etc.

When the Russian nationalists call the Ukrainian nationalists fascists they are referring to the Second World War; the Ukrainian nationalists, in response, brandish the banner of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army. It’s all fucking bollocks, but the Russians know exactly what they are taking about, and they are no less nuts or neo-fascist about it than their Svoboda enemies.

6) A lot of people in Eastern Europe and the Caucasus states are terrified of the Russian military and of Putin’s secret services, and this is partly because some of them have read Politkovskaya and remember what happened to her. This is largely because they have seen it in action, at close range, with their own eyes. The Georgian war is the great precursor to this, and was provoked by its EU (AA) and NATO (MAP) ambitions and Kosovan independence.

7) You should all read Andrew Wilson, especially his outstanding suite of books The Ukrainians - An Unexpected Nation (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Ukrainians-Unexpected-Nation-Andrew-Wilson/dp/0300154763/ref=la_B001ITXQZS_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1394131885&sr=1-1), Ukraine’s Orange Revolution (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Ukraines-Orange-Revolution-Andrew-Wilson/dp/0300112904/ref=pd_sim_b_3?ie=UTF8&refRID=04BVT6RDG0C2DQGF635F), Virtual Politics - Faking Democracy in the Post-Soviet World (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Virtual-Politics-Faking-Democracy-Post-Soviet/dp/0300095457/ref=la_B001ITXQZS_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1394137170&sr=1-4) and Belarus - The Last European Dictatorship (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Belarus-European-Dictatorship-Andrew-Wilson/dp/0300134355/ref=la_B001ITXQZS_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1394137318&sr=1-2).

craner
06-03-2014, 08:53 PM
Regarding Point 2, I should clarfiy, there may be an election soon, depending on how events play out in Crimea.

trza
17-03-2014, 03:59 PM
So, a transparent election, huh?

Sectionfive
20-03-2014, 03:21 AM
The current interim administration -- the purpose of which is to rescue the country’s economy

for goodness sake

This is a good read on Svoboda or where to next

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2014/03/18/yes_there_are_bad_guys_in_the_ukrainian_government


Party leader Oleh Tyahnybok is on record complaining that his country is controlled by a "Muscovite-Jewish mafia," while his deputy derided the Ukrainian-born film star Mila Kunis as a "dirty Jewess." In Svoboda's eyes, gays are perverts and black people unfit to represent the nation at Eurovision, lest viewers come away thinking Ukraine is somewhere besides Uganda.

Svoboda began life in the mid-90s as the Social-National Party (a name deliberately redolent of the National Socialist Party, better known as Nazis), with its logo the fascist Wolfsangel. In 2004, the party gave itself an unobjectionable new name (Svoboda means "Freedom") and canned the Nazi imagery, and in the subsequent decade has seen its star swiftly rise.

Today, Svoboda holds a larger chunk of its nation's ministries (nearly a quarter, including the prized defense portfolio) than any other far-right party on the continent. Ukraine's deputy prime minister represents Svoboda (the smaller, even more extreme "Right Sector" coalition fills the deputy National Security Council chair), as does the prosecutor general and the deputy chair of parliament -- where the party is the fourth-largest. And Svoboda's fresh faces are scarcely different from the old: one of its freshmen members of parliament is the founder of the "Joseph Goebbels Political Research Centre" and has hailed the Holocaust as a "bright period" in human history.

When the Ukraine crisis first broke in November, however, Western officialdom found itself in the dark. The end of the Cold War has occasioned a sharp drop in governmental interest in the Soviet successor states, and as Michael McFaul, a Russia scholar and the former U.S. ambassador to Moscow, recently observed, Team America is batting with a considerably "shorter bench."

Nowhere has this dearth of nuance been more apparent than in the Ukraine crisis. In December, shortly after protests began against Ukraine's pro-Russian president Viktor Yanukovych, U.S. Senator John McCain shared a platform and an embrace with Svoboda chief Tyahnybok at a mass rally in Kiev, assuring demonstrators, "The free world is with you; America is with you." In February of this year, France and Germany oversaw a peace deal between Tyahnybok, two other opposition leaders, and Yanukovych (though soon after, protests forced Yanukovych to flee to Russia). And in early March, the U.S. State Department published a debunking of Putin's "False Claims About Ukraine," assuring Americans that Ukraine's far-right "are not represented" in parliament.

Western commentators have done little better. When Liz Wahl, an anchor for the Kremlin-funded TV network RT America, quit on-air on March 5, she was feted for her bravery. Granted an extended interview with CNN's Anderson Cooper, she explained her decision by recounting her disgust at the network "painting the opposition over there in the Ukraine as having neo-Nazi elements. I think that's very dangerous."

Meanwhile, in the lead-up to the March 16 referendum on Crimea's annexation to Russia, Svoboda was busier than ever. One of its chief demands -- that all government business be done in Ukrainian -- was passed into law, instantaneously marginalizing the one-third of Ukraine's citizens (and 60 percent of Crimeans) who speak Russian. Then for good measure, the party launched a push to repeal a law against "excusing the crimes of fascism."


Video of them manhandling some TV exec going around yesterday. I don't think we should pay any less attention to far-right involvement tbh

This is also quite interesting on that Wahl resignation


It was a full 19 minutes before Wahl resigned. Inside the offices of the Foreign Policy Initiative, a neoconservative think tank in Washington D.C., a staffer logged on to the group’s Twitter account to announce the following:

“#WordOnTheStreet says that something big might happen on RT in about 20-25 minutes.”

Then, at 5:16, exactly 10 minutes before Wahl would quit on air, FPI tweeted:

“#WordOnTheStreet says you’re really going to want to tune in to RT: http://rt.com/on-air/rt-america-air/ #SomethinBigMayBeGoingDown”

Up until two minutes before Wahl’s resignation, FPI took to Twitter again to urge its followers to tune in to RT.

And finally, at 5:26 p.m., at the very moment Wahl quit, FPI’s Twitter account broke the news: “RT Anchor RESIGNS ON AIR. She ‘cannot be part of a network that whitewashes the actions of Putin.’ ”

The tweets from FPI suggested a direct level of coordination between Wahl and the neoconservative think tank. Several calls to FPI for this story were not answered.

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/how_cold_war-hungry_neocons_stage_managed_liz_wahls_resignation _20140319

craner
20-03-2014, 05:05 PM
I know Oren Kessler a little bit and he is quite good, but you ought to know that he is hardline pro-Israel and works at the Henry Jackson Society. His focus on global anti-semitism is certainly not off-beam, however there are a clutch of fundamental mistakes, slantings and ommisions in that article which, as much as anything else quoted, tip the balance in RT's direction.

Speaking of which, a plot devised by Liz Wahl and The Foreign Policy Initiative sounds really cool and interesting but, sadly, I suspect it's a total bollocks. If not, then well done, everybody, good work, etc.. It shows much more initiative than the U.S. government.

vimothy
20-03-2014, 05:20 PM
Hey guys, it's good to see that you are all still hammering it out here.

Craner,


Speaking of which, a plot devised by Liz Wahl and The Foreign Policy Initiative sounds really cool and interesting but...

This made me spit rioja all over my monitor. But can we get an update? I rely on you for this sort of stuff.

craner
20-03-2014, 06:18 PM
All I can say is: if I had known about it beforehand, I would have been totally 100% on board. Alas, it sounds a bit too clever for everybody concerned, although I hope it isn't. The idea of mole inside RT is a good one.

vimothy
20-03-2014, 06:22 PM
I mean re the situation in the Ukraine in general.

craner
20-03-2014, 06:28 PM
Oh, right! Ha. I thought you were after neocon goss.

HMGovt
21-03-2014, 05:36 PM
So is Putin top dog, the unassailable, capo di tutti capi, or are there others pulling his strings?

crackerjack
17-04-2014, 11:28 AM
So who's the Nazis now? (http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/1.585897)

trza
17-04-2014, 09:12 PM
Will this affect those russian websites everyone goes to for downloads of the latest Hyperdub albums?

crackerjack
18-04-2014, 12:19 PM
So who's the Nazis now? (http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/1.585897)

edit: should add there now seems to be some doubt (http://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/Jewish-News/Jews-cast-doubt-on-origin-of-anti-Semitic-flyers-in-Donetsk-349848) about who printed those leaflets.

Mr. Tea
18-04-2014, 05:58 PM
edit: should add there now seems to be some doubt (http://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/Jewish-News/Jews-cast-doubt-on-origin-of-anti-Semitic-flyers-in-Donetsk-349848) about who printed those leaflets.

If it is a hoax, that'd make it a sort of inverse Protocols, right?

Mr. Tea
18-07-2014, 10:36 AM
So has Pilger blamed the plane attack on America yet?