Scotland Independent

sufi

lala
It is this centralised, unitary state, meanwhile, that has gone to war repeatedly over the last decade. The legacy of its brutal Empire lives on its oversized military, and its willingness to use it. (Britain, with a population 0.89% of the world’s total, is the sixth largest military spender on the planet.) My entire adult life has been spent living in a country that is either bombing, invading, or occupying one place or another, with appalling consequences. It is only the immense, popular upsurge of the anti-war movement that has stayed the British state’s hand. Breaking up this warlike state, undermining its capacity to act abroad – as Scottish independence will – will be a huge gain for the world.
http://www.counterfire.org/articles/opinion/17407-scottish-independence-referendum-no-excuse-for-no
 

paolo

Mechanical phantoms
It's sort of ironic that a lot of people in Scotland (including me) are voting yes because they don't like the Tories, but they were the ones who have allowed the referendum to go ahead
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
I don't really have strong feelings about it one way or another - except for the fact that not many Scots vote Tory, so it'll definitely strengthen the Tories in England.

But then, to put things in context, Scotland's whole population is something like 8% of the UK's total, so it's not going to radically change the balance of power in Westminster. In fact, could it be exactly the impetus English politics needs for the reinvigoration of a Labour Party that's not a complete waste of space, or a bigger role for the Greens?

Edit: if we can send George Galloway back, then I'm 100% behind a Yes vote.
 
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droid

Well-known member
Its almost inconceivable that any true scotsman (!) would vote against this? The scots seem to be heading in a relatively sensible, liberal, neutral, northern european european direction... an opportunity to reduce ties with a state thats pretty much heading in the opposite direction seems like an open and shut case.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
There's northern European...and then there's northern European European!

A potential stumbling block is the currency, of course. Seems like they'll be unlikely to keep the (UK) £, and the euro is looking less attractive than it might have done 10 years ago. How difficult would it be for them to create a separate Scottish pound? A poond, in fact?
 

droid

Well-known member
lol.

From what Ive read all the sterling talk is scaremongering. There's no real reason I can see why they couldn't keep using it. Westminster has no real say on who uses their currency anyway (we pegged to it for years), and if it comes down to it I dont think there'll be any appetite to make trouble if/when the Scots decide to keep it. In fact, if it goes ahead, I imagine all these 'intractable' problems will somehow melt away in favour of good relations and continuing economic relationships.
 

griftert

Well-known member
Yeah, there's a few different options. I'd imagine Westminister's favourite would be to share a pound over which it ultimately has control - I'm not sure that would be the best from a Scottish point of view but I can't see it being so unlikely.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Anyone got any idea of how many years' good pickings are left in the North Sea oil/gas that Scotland will control most of if the Yes vote goes through?

In fact, if it goes ahead, I imagine all these 'intractable' problems will somehow melt away in favour of good relations and continuing economic relationships.

Let's hope so. If the price of a bottle of single malt in English shops increases significantly then I'm afraid a war of reconquest might be inevitable.
 
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IdleRich

IdleRich
I don't see why they couldn't keep the pound. I don't think they could become part of the Eurozone though because they have to have had their own independent currency that has met certain stability conditions for a number of years before they can be allowed in. I guess they could peg to the Euro if they wanted to though.
 

paolo

Mechanical phantoms
Scotland wants to keep the pound, the UK want to keep nuclear weapons in Scotland. There's a deal to be made there

Also I don't get why the SNP want to keep the Queen as head of state in an independent Scotland. I'd be all for getting rid of the old bag
 

Patrick Swayze

I'm trying to shut up
Lack of support for the Tories doesn't equate to a lack of right wingers in Scotland (lots of Labour supporters hold socially conservative views)

Since they're going to join NATO I doubt it'll have much of an effect on Western interventions in foreign countries
 

Patrick Swayze

I'm trying to shut up
I was thinking this as I read the quote in sufi's first post, which strikes me as ahistorical at best, if not a little disingenuous.

The argument being made to people outside of Scotland (which is less important as none of us will be voting but is being made nonetheless) doesn't seem to be aimed at Tories and UKIP supporters as they don't mind if Scotland becomes independent, it'll strengthen their support and produce a more Eurosceptic parliament.

So the independence campaign is focusing on portraying an independent Scotland as a socially democratic utopia to win support from English Labour voters, on the premise it'll produce some sort of trickle down socialism.
 
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griftert

Well-known member
Well, it would certainly be more left wing than Westminister. There is/was a number of avowedly socialist MPs in the parliament. I dunno if there's any in Westminister beyond a few the Labour party can't get rid of. Whether it produces a more progressive England is neither here not there. If your churlishness extends to the notion that just because you're stuck with a corrupt Westminister that means we all should be I don't know what to tell you.
 

Patrick Swayze

I'm trying to shut up
Well, it would certainly be more left wing than Westminister. There is/was a number of avowedly socialist MPs in the parliament. I dunno if there's any in Westminister beyond a few the Labour party can't get rid of. Whether it produces a more progressive England is neither here not there. If your churlishness extends to the notion that just because you're stuck with a corrupt Westminister that means we all should be I don't know what to tell you.

No, I just don't buy the idea that an independent Scotland will be more left wing than Britain (might be more left wing than what they'd leave us with). Either the SNP will remain as a coalition of social democrats and neo-liberals (bad for democracy) or Scottish politics will fragment into (slightly) left and (slightly) right.


The fact that UKIP can take votes off the Labour party in the North is telling. People don't necessarily vote Labour because they're socially (or even economically) left wing, they just can't stomach voting for a bunch of old Etonians from the home counties.

Why would it be less corrupt?
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
If your churlishness extends to the notion that just because you're stuck with a corrupt Westminister that means we all should be I don't know what to tell you.

So people in the rest of the UK shouldn't have an opinion on something that'll affect them?
 

Patrick Swayze

I'm trying to shut up
The idea of a socialist nation built on oil revenues claiming to be less corrupt than its neighbours is an interesting one.

is the third world worth burning at the altar of western socialist democracy?
 
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griftert

Well-known member
Didn't you read my post? Well, for one thing it's already more left-wing. Free school meals, tuition, prescriptions etc were all spearheaded by the Scottish Socialist Party who got seats in the parliament. A socialist party would not win seats in England. The SNP is to the left of Labour on most issues, and people in Scotland overturned a generational loyalty to Labour because they were percieved to be 'just like the Tories'. Look at the figures.
People (and parties) in Scotland generally subscribe to political assumptions which more resemble the post-war settlement. People just don't espouse a radical individualism to the same extent that is common in England.

Also, on the notion that more democracy generally tends towards less corruption the fact that the partliament is proportional representation is also important. It's less likely for blocks of voters in Surrey to command all the power.

Also, there is less class stratification and snobbery in Scotland. There isn't a Scottish aristocracy that is looked on with fondness by large swathes of the populalation as there is in England.

People could get jobs of some note without having had to either have went to private school or Oxbridge (and preferably both).
 

griftert

Well-known member
So people in the rest of the UK shouldn't have an opinion on something that'll affect them?
Well, it's a different country. That's usually how democracy works. We wouldn't be taking any democratic powers from the rest of the country (the opposite is true).

I take it you'd like to be able to decide what oil prices OPEC sets, or what kind of fishing policies the Scandinavian countries have. Unfortunately it's a different country.
 
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