PDA

View Full Version : method acting/role play supercedes irony as cultural strategy



luka
06-11-2014, 10:09 AM
This is the wave of the present and has been for years now

luka
06-11-2014, 10:10 AM
It's recognition that withholding belief means no results. No sacrifice no reward

datwun
06-11-2014, 10:46 AM
I think that's what these guys are all about:
http://www.metamodernism.com/
A sort of oscillation between the desire to believe and the inability to.

PiLhead
06-11-2014, 10:39 PM
think this dude may also be talking about what Luka is talking about, albeit from a different angle - what the dude calls Performatism

http://www.artmargins.com/index.php/archive/322-performatism-or-what-comes-after-postmodernism-new-architecture-in-berlin

(ignore the stuff about architecture which is the second part of the essay, the first bit riffs off of then-recent movies) (he wrote a whole book about Performatism which i have not read) (as far as i can tell he's received many critiques and not much in the way of agreement)

but perhaps Luka could elaborate on the shift he's detected, the specific cultural
things that have led him to that conclusion - you dropped this thought-bomb in music, so how is it playing out in music?

(Metamodernism seems a bit like trying to have your cake and eat it -- not unlearn the lessons of postmodernism but shed all the enfeebling side effects and get back all the good things it put out of reach like belief, earnestness, passion, conviction, commitment etc)

luka
07-11-2014, 08:50 AM
its been something ive been idly mulling over since the riff raff thread where i realised peoples software wasnt upto date. they didnt have the right systems to understand him.

luka
07-11-2014, 08:51 AM
although its also in music becasue dissnesis activity is at an all time low and the only section with even minimal activity is music

luka
07-11-2014, 08:52 AM
what is the lession the internet teaches? that identity is another costume n the dressing up box

luka
07-11-2014, 09:01 AM
which obv. overlaps with new age/self help dogma

luka
07-11-2014, 09:06 AM
or even people just do nothing. thats not parody.

luka
07-11-2014, 09:06 AM
in the old lazy sense at least. its not goldie looking chain.

luka
07-11-2014, 09:22 AM
the one thing you fear, as a method actor, is someone digging into your past. before the character had been concieved. before you found the escape hatch. people digging into your past are trying to drag you back to earth, they dont want anyone to escape. again riff raff is good test case his interview with ebro....

luka
07-11-2014, 09:23 AM
when you hae someone from the presentwave clashing with someone on the fallingwave you can learn a lot. so that interview is essential

luka
07-11-2014, 09:25 AM
a lot of people i know that were into music and that, thought they were a bit cool, not squares anyway,they are lost now. they are in there 30s and lost. they dont have the software. if you dont keep ontop of your updates you can find yourself lost very quickly

luka
07-11-2014, 09:26 AM
its like a city is always in the process of being torn down and rebuilt. go away for a few years and when you come back its confusing. you feel like you still know the place but youre getting lost all the time

luka
07-11-2014, 09:39 AM
in 2008 i was trying to talk about the new world but i abandoned the project cos no one liked it and i lost my mojo. that was the time when i decided i would never try and wrte prose again.
http://degradationceremony.blogspot.co.uk/2008/06/dead-end.html

In Xanadu and Ganymede, fashion has become fancy dress. Walk through the trendier parts of town and you will find yourself sharing the streets with pirates and conquistadors, samurai, Comanche chiefs, characters from the Chinese opera, men in enormous Micronesian masks and grass skirts, geishas, maharajahs, sultans and mandarins.

These characters scorn the factory made garments the masses wear and pay huge prices for tailors to make each unique item.

This trend has given rise to a curious condition. Still extremely rare though everyone on the scene seems to know of cases. Costumes have been taking over their wearers personalities, like the boy dressed as an Inuit shaman who had dreams of being dismembered and put together again, but changed, with something new added to his makeup. Starting speaking in the language of the birds and prophesying, communing with spirits and dancing wildly in the parks, till one day he just disappeared. Or the notorious idler, a self-described artist who adopted the dress of a successful executive until he found himself on the board, 3 years later, not sure how it all happened, a trophy wife whose name he can barely remember sleeping beside him.

luka
07-11-2014, 10:17 AM
http://relations-dating.blogspot.co.uk/2012/11/sexual-culture-in-bulgaria.html

this also pertinent

luka
07-11-2014, 11:03 AM
oneof my art rules is never get caught winking at any particular section of the audience

luka
07-11-2014, 11:03 AM
NO ONE should be in on the joke.

PiLhead
07-11-2014, 05:23 PM
i think you're onto something

people don't care about authenticity in the sense of a persona being grounded in some reality of the self or how it correlates with social background or any of those metrics of credibility / cred

it's about the convincingness of the persona in that performance situation - making people believe that you believe

(Bruza's "Not Convinced" is about this, the failure of the junior aspiring MC who's being dressed down isn't because he lacks for street cred, but because he doesn't put across the gestures of street knowledge, etc with sufficient skill to conjure authority and realness)

that is a generalised thing in pop music and has been for a while - identity as something you can chop and change - whereas once it was an unusual, noteworthy, self-conscious strategy (Bowie etc), worthy of commentary, and something that was deeply divisive

today it is assumed that the persona presented to the public is malleable, swappable - that it'll change, be discarded, etc as part of a career strategy

nobody expects integrity or consistency

but equally i think you're right that they don't want a sense of inverted commas/quote marks or ironically distancing, they want a performer to be fully vested in the role of the moment -- someone like Robbie Willams rolling his eyes as he sings a passionate song as if mocking the whole enterprise, that wouldn't play. Or the Darkness with the singer dude going 'geeetar' just before the guitar solo

questions:

what, besides the Internet, is behind this shift? *

is it a good thing?

* i think in politics it has become normalised that politicians say one thing to one audience, another thing to another audience. pundits talk about optics, about telling a story, about candidates needing a good narrative -- basically an acceptance of the idea of the constructedness of public persona

luka
08-11-2014, 10:37 AM
50 cent doesn't understand 2014. He thought exposing the past of rick Ross would finish his career but instead Ross has been the biggest figure on the rap landscape for years

luka
08-11-2014, 10:40 AM
50 cent is hurt and confused

luka
08-11-2014, 11:31 AM
There's been a big generational shift. They've lightened right up this lot give or take the odd riot. Example. In my day the cool thing to do was to walk around scowling if you walked through stratford shopping centre everyone was practising scowling trying to get good at it. If you go there now young people are practicing roller skating and dancing. You would never have been allowed in my day. Um intrigued, horrified and envious all at the same time

luka
08-11-2014, 11:35 AM
George mobnbiot says it's cos there's less lead about. Who knows. People are prone to mistake symptoms for causes but the internet seems important.

luka
08-11-2014, 11:42 AM
But that's a whole nother issue, related but far broader

luka
08-11-2014, 12:00 PM
Change is always a good thing cos we follow the storyline. We need narrative development. That's why people follow pthis stuff isn't it, trying to work out which way the wind is blowing

luka
08-11-2014, 12:33 PM
I quoted myself it's about fashion. This is where the first clues appeared no? As to what was about to happen

luka
08-11-2014, 12:35 PM
ok, im off my phone. its hard to write on a telephone.

luka
08-11-2014, 12:35 PM
fashion goes mainstream in the ealy 00s? rise of fashion high st brands top shop h&m zara

luka
08-11-2014, 12:36 PM
clothes no longer about tribal allegience

luka
08-11-2014, 12:37 PM
but having become a leading film maker i have learned that when constructing a character the first thing you need to anchor it is a costume

luka
08-11-2014, 12:37 PM
so once you are free to change outfit, you realise identity is moore fluid than they let on

luka
08-11-2014, 12:42 PM
again, we dont want to confuse symptoms for causes. how i imagine these things is as a giant underlying wave that carries everything with it. so the change is manifested in every area. andre 3000 doesnt cause it, hes an early sign of change, kayne takes the freedom andre wins, uses it in a more conservative way. 50 cent well puzzled. whats going on. (this is not about method acting per se just what lays the groundwork)

Patrick Swayze
09-11-2014, 04:06 PM
carnival all year round

nomos
10-11-2014, 10:14 PM
"For a few years I'd been railing against postmodernism and irony," he explains. "I've got this real anger against people who think the best way of dealing with the world is through sardonic eyes. It's a depressing, defeatist view of humanity. And I wanted to do something that was sincere, that was not smart and clever for its own sake. I had this notion that the most radical, avant-garde thing I could do was to talk about love. There's nothing that will make an intellectual's buttocks clench more than to talk about love."
http://www.theguardian.com/film/2013/oct/26/steve-coogan-philomena-interview

Slothrop
10-11-2014, 10:40 PM
Or even:

"The next real literary “rebels” in this country might well emerge as some weird bunch of anti-rebels, born oglers who dare somehow to back away from ironic watching, who have the childish gall actually to endorse and instantiate single-entendre principles. Who treat of plain old untrendy human troubles and emotions in U.S. life with reverence and conviction. Who eschew self-consciousness and hip fatigue. These anti-rebels would be outdated, of course, before they even started. Dead on the page. Too sincere. Clearly repressed. Backward, quaint, naive, anachronistic. Maybe that’ll be the point. Maybe that’s why they’ll be the next real rebels. Real rebels, as far as I can see, risk disapproval. The old postmodern insurgents risked the gasp and squeal: shock, disgust, outrage, censorship, accusations of socialism, anarchism, nihilism. Today’s risks are different. The new rebels might be artists willing to risk the yawn, the rolled eyes, the cool smile, the nudged ribs, the parody of gifted ironists, the “Oh how banal.” To risk accusations of sentimentality, melodrama. Of overcredulity. Of softness. Of willingness to be suckered by a world of lurkers and starers who fear gaze and ridicule above imprisonment without law. Who knows."

DFW, 1993.

Although I think that's different from what Luka's talking about.

PiLhead
11-11-2014, 06:06 PM
i think that's different. there's been any number of people railing against, or calling for an end to, irony and disengagement -- calling for a return to sincerity and commitment. David Foster Wallace is probably the most famous, and possibly the first, but there was a guy in the US, young man who briefly got a lot of attention -- i've completely forgotten his name, unfortunately, but he was this sort of 22 year old prodigy who wrote a book calling for A New Earnestness, one of his targets was the triviality of Seinfeld ... anyway, this sort of "enough with irony, enough with quotation marks," has been a recurrent thing for a good 20 years.... basically people calling time on postmodernism

what i think Luka is talking about is not a simple return to "saying what you mean directly and sincerely" / authenticity / honesty / earnestness etc.... which is why he invokes the idea of method acting -- it's an awareness of playing a role in a specific context, but fully investing in that role - not making little winks and nudge-nudges to your audiences

so you can construct a whole persona for yourself out of nothing, but once you've done you have to play it straight, keep it up - at least when you're onstage or in performance

i would connect it perhaps with a strain of religiosity and vaguely spiritual belief-iness you get in quite a lot of music these days, certain films ....

one of the few places wink-wink postmodernism persists is in children's movies - -particularly animations, there are all these references to pop culture, stuff perhaps designed to amuse the poor parents who've had to accompany the kids to the movie theater

luka
11-11-2014, 06:20 PM
Yeah you're getting it

craner
11-11-2014, 11:30 PM
This is exactly what T. S. Eliot did, and it helped him to think and to write, certainly before he found a different guise (and guile) in Anglo-Catholicism and divorced his mad wife. It was a bit different, but possibly even more effective, after that, as the elder statesman at Faber. But who played a role as legal alien and ersatz scion to transcend uncertainty, anxiety and inferiority better than Eliot did in the 1920s? Because the point is he knew exactly what he was doing, brought into it and lived it, but also did it slightly off-kilter and exaggerated for that very reason. Almost a text book case.

craner
11-11-2014, 11:34 PM
one of the few places wink-wink postmodernism persists is in children's movies

Or BBC mainstream, like the new Dr Who incarnations.

craner
14-11-2014, 08:30 PM
again, we dont want to confuse symptoms for causes. how i imagine these things is as a giant underlying wave that carries everything with it. so the change is manifested in every area. andre 3000 doesnt cause it, hes an early sign of change, kayne takes the freedom andre wins, uses it in a more conservative way. 50 cent well puzzled. whats going on. (this is not about method acting per se just what lays the groundwork)


You know that these sorts of conversations we have, whether sober or plastered, and not always on this level, if ever, remind me of the last line Jenkins writes about Moreland in A Dance to the Music of Time:


He sighed, more exhaustedly than regretfully, I thought. That morning was the last time I saw Moreland. It was also the last time I had, with anyone, the sort of talk we used to have together.

Death is always perched, just so, on one shoulder or the other.

shiels
21-11-2014, 01:56 PM
There's been a big generational shift. They've lightened right up this lot give or take the odd riot. Example. In my day the cool thing to do was to walk around scowling if you walked through stratford shopping centre everyone was practising scowling trying to get good at it. If you go there now young people are practicing roller skating and dancing. You would never have been allowed in my day. Um intrigued, horrified and envious all at the same time

true where i'm from too, much less hard lads and much more JLS type young lotharios.

the internet does have a large part to play, social media in particular, giving platform for the constructed, created identity and also exposing the process at the same time. so we get the stage.. "yay i can be who i want to be".. but at the same time everyone really knows that it's a play. people are starting to realise this idea of authenticity is fluid, changing costume becomes more comfortable.

I like the andre/kanye/fiddy example. great thread, i love conversations like this.

Mr. Tea
21-11-2014, 02:52 PM
"enough with irony, enough with quotation marks"


Bet Alanis wishes she'd thought of that one^^.

comelately
04-09-2015, 02:38 PM
I thought I'd re-earth this one - I was thinking about 'ambiguity' in business, and that lead me to metamodernism. Plus I watched The Interview.

I am not an actor, and have had no aspirations in that direction, but I encountered 'Meisner repetition' (one of the principle learning tools of Method acting) in an ecstatic dance workshop in 2009 - well two actually. It was considered 'advanced' and you had to have taken some other workshops in emotions and personal history before you could attend. As I say we did a lot of this exercise, only without any kind of theatrical context or role play whatsoever - sometimes there would be one pair going at it with everyone else watching, other times we'd all be doing it at once.

It's strange, because the teacher was very much making it about communicating authentically and getting rid of the ego, all that mushy transpersonal stuff - but I did feel there was something a bit more postmodern going on. I'm not sure many other people did though because obviously the workshop was mostly full of hippie types with fairly deep new-agey presuppositions.

I get the sense that the creator of the workshop, Gabrielle Roth (btw she produced numerous albums, sometimes with interesting musicians), had some vague inkling that there was something going on in this postmodernism thing and she tried to integrate it with her approach to spirituality. I don't think she succeeded (she died a few years ago); I get a sense that she didn't think people were quite ready to really understand what was going on in the workshop - but maybe its time is sort of coming.

In her 'maps of being', we come out of 'chaos' into a 'lyrical' state by indeed 'lightening up'. One should be very, very wary of these narratives but I do get a sense of something interesting happening - it won't necessarily be all that pretty some of the time of course.

luka
04-09-2015, 04:31 PM
im not being mean but what point are you making here?

comelately
04-09-2015, 06:15 PM
im not being mean but what point are you making here?

Am I really supposed to tell you?

luka
04-09-2015, 06:22 PM
Yeah cos this is a public forum where we make halting attempts at communication and that's like a diary entry I don't know what it means exactly

comelately
04-09-2015, 06:22 PM
Go on then. Something like, metamodernism is maybe as much a dialectical progression from transpersonal thinking that never really paid any significant mind to postmodernism in the first place, as it is an oscillation from away and back towards a previous postmodernist position.

comelately
05-09-2015, 12:05 PM
Yeah cos this is a public forum where we make halting attempts at communication and that's like a diary entry I don't know what it means exactly

I decided to try to answer the question, but I do think the above is very strange.

Although people talk about 'The Interview' as metamodern cinema, I think 'Whiplash' is perhaps the first piece of major metamodern cinema.

You've got JK Simmons channelling both Sgt. Hartman from Full Metal Jacket and consciously reprising his previous role as 'Aryan Brotherhood' leader Schillinger from Oz to play band conductor Fletcher. And yet it's an inspirational mentor-student relationship move, am I right? Well not unless you're willing to not look take Fletcher's expressed motivations at face value - which requires a certain naivety, a willingness to look the other way on some of his shit. You've got the young prodigy Andrew, who in the director's mind has drug addiction and an early grave in front of him - but it doesn't matter, because he'll have been a great.......jazz drummer??! In the 21st century? Who gives a shit? Is it worth all that struggle to become 'great' in such a small niche? Dunno really, but ever so slightly leaning towards yes.

luka
05-09-2015, 01:09 PM
I've never heard of whiplash or the interview or metamodern or jk.Simmons. I feel like I'm in one of those conversations where someone's talking about Betty and auntie Nora and wheezing toshack in the queens head as if they're pals of yours but you've never heard of them before

luka
05-09-2015, 01:10 PM
Nonplussed. Befuddled

comelately
05-09-2015, 01:32 PM
I've never heard of whiplash or the interview or metamodern or jk.Simmons. I feel like I'm in one of those conversations where someone's talking about Betty and auntie Nora and wheezing toshack in the queens head as if they're pals of yours but you've never heard of them before

Ha. Okay - partly my fault for assuming we were definitely talking about metamodernism.

This may join some dots. Kinda.

http://www.dazeddigital.com/artsandculture/article/22732/1/shia-labeouf-the-interview

comelately
05-09-2015, 06:20 PM
All that said, Whiplash is a triple Oscar winning art flick. And 'The Interview' was one of the most notorious and controversial releases of 2014. These are not obscure reference points. datwun linked to a metamodernism webby earlier in the thread.

The method is often portrayed in the media as unwavering commitment to character - working as a taxi driver and being a dick to the crew style of thing. I mean yeah, to a point - but it's also a commitment to the actual reality of the situation - if the two actors hate eachother, or one is cold or something; it's entirely proper for that to be included.

Patrick Swayze
08-09-2015, 10:11 PM
I was really disappointed that Fletcher wasn't a figment of Andrew's imagination, but I was really high and the whole film just reminded me of an advert about anxiety.