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luka
31-01-2015, 10:37 AM
This is an interesting story isn't it?

Zekk
31-01-2015, 03:25 PM
It is hilarious to see from a Portuguese perspective. The Portuguese prime minister won't even pronounce Tspiras' name and called his government an impossible fairy tale.

trza
31-01-2015, 04:48 PM
It doesn't reek, it GREEKS.

luka
29-06-2015, 08:21 AM
Still interesting despite this thread falling flat.

luka
29-06-2015, 08:43 AM
It's educational

vimothy
29-06-2015, 09:28 AM
Carnage.

luka
29-06-2015, 03:16 PM
I remember arguing with customers in 2011 or 2012 about Greece. I thought they should default. My current entirely predictable position is they are quite right to tell wonga fuck off can't pay won't pay. You're a bunch of shark cunts

mistersloane
29-06-2015, 06:35 PM
It's fab, we dance as the banks burn

https://youtu.be/pRxMr0eLtRI

bruno
30-06-2015, 02:13 AM
I remember arguing with customers in 2011 or 2012 about Greece. I thought they should default. My current entirely predictable position is they are quite right to tell wonga fuck off can't pay won't pay. You're a bunch of shark cunts
the irony is that greece approved debt relief for germany after the war, now germany and europe ask greece to give a considerable part of its gdp for thirty years in exchange for a rescue. ignoring the cost of nazi-era pillage (syriza says it amounts to 279 billion) and greek corruption (it is an issue) the solution should be political.

Mr. Tea
30-06-2015, 09:18 AM
I read the other day that the total debt is equivalent to a quarter of a million US$ per working adult. Granted, Greece has huge unemployment and a large proportion of its adults are either studying or retired at any one time, but that's a craaazy amount of money.

Leo
30-06-2015, 02:24 PM
so what's the solution? cut them loose and let them fend for themselves/sink? continue to give them loans they'll never be able to repay? what are the chances they'd be able to turn things around even if they received debt forgiveness?

Mr. Tea
30-06-2015, 02:35 PM
Fuck knows. Tell the troika to get stuffed, ditch the euro/reinstate the drachma, stop spending silly money on tanks/planes/warships it doesn't need, start actually taxing people, hope their new cheaper currency tempts more overseas tourists? Maybe.

trza
30-06-2015, 02:38 PM
They have some kind of system where the government pays a certain amount to the Orthodox Church every year, and the church owns tons of land and developments and doesn't pay taxes and is politically protected from ever doing so.

Both Greece and PR have economies where the best and hardest working and most ambitious just leave for Germany or NYC as soon as they are done with school. That kind of system makes tax collecting and recouping investments in health and education nearly impossible.

Mr. Tea
30-06-2015, 03:03 PM
They also have by far the biggest proportional military spending in the EU (or did a few years ago, they might have reined it in a bit since then), an economic elite that makes the UK's multimillionaires look like amateurs in the sport of tax avoidance, a colossally bloated civil service and loads of jobs from which you can retire on full state pension at 50.

Basically it's not hard to see how they've got into the situation they're in. The problem is that while there are obvious ways big money could be recouped (cutting military spending, taxing the rich) these are naturally going to be resisted by powerful people and, as usual, it's going to be ordinary people who get it in the neck.

Leo
30-06-2015, 03:50 PM
http://www.vox.com/2015/6/30/8867939/greece-economic-crisis

this is a decent plain-language overview, seems like the best approach might be, as Tea says, to leave the euro, reinstate the drachma and do some level of spending cuts. surely would be painful in the short term but might allow them to dig out

Mr. Tea
30-06-2015, 04:33 PM
Interesting piece contrasting Greece with Ireland:

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/who-will-dare-say-out-loud-emperor-has-no-clothes-1.2267032

trza
30-06-2015, 05:06 PM
but pr has baricuas and morenas

baboon2004
30-06-2015, 10:35 PM
Interesting piece contrasting Greece with Ireland:

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/who-will-dare-say-out-loud-emperor-has-no-clothes-1.2267032

that's a great article, thanks. gets to the heart of the need to sustain a collective 'ethical' narrative, even when that narrative is completely crazy and founded on lies and half-truths. Same goes for Tory austerity policy of course - warped ideological conviction masquerading as economic science.

Krugman good as well I think - http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/29/opinion/paul-krugman-greece-over-the-brink.html?_r=0 - again, how many times does it need to be said that austerity has only produced results where the currency in question has been devalued by a large amount to make exports competitive?

"If you add up all the austerity measures, they have been more than enough to eliminate the original deficit and turn it into a large surplus." - would be useful to have actual figures here though, too lazy to search for them now...

baboon2004
30-06-2015, 10:50 PM
I read the other day that the total debt is equivalent to a quarter of a million US$ per working adult. Granted, Greece has huge unemployment and a large proportion of its adults are either studying or retired at any one time, but that's a craaazy amount of money.

if there were 1.4 million working adults in Greece (debt is 316 billion euros, it says here), then that sounds about right...but I think there's about 7 million between 18 and 64, so must be at least 4 million working adults even with 25% unemployment and lots of studying?

Leo
30-06-2015, 11:10 PM
not uncommon for conservative politicians use "austerity" as an excuse to cut programs they never liked and always wanted to get rid of.

Mr. Tea
01-07-2015, 12:53 PM
if there were 1.4 million working adults in Greece (debt is 316 billion euros, it says here), then that sounds about right...but I think there's about 7 million between 18 and 64, so must be at least 4 million working adults even with 25% unemployment and lots of studying?

An awful lot of Greek adults are "economically inactive" without being registered as unemployed - consider a very substantial student population, a low retirement age combined with high life expectancy, compulsory military service for men and I guess also stay-at-home mums, and it all adds up.

baboon2004
02-07-2015, 02:06 PM
I guess, though 1.4 million does seem fantastically low even with all of those things... Nevertheless, the debt is too damn high.

Going to be pretty depressing if a 'no' vote isn't returned this Sunday, and, even if it is, seemingly no guarantee that Syriza won't continue to play this absurd game of trying to get the EU authorities to agree to a debt write-off they're never going to agree to. Obvs has to end some time though...

IdleRich
02-07-2015, 02:25 PM
An awful lot of Greek adults are "economically inactive" without being registered as unemployed - consider a very substantial student population, a low retirement age combined with high life expectancy, compulsory military service for men and I guess also stay-at-home mums, and it all adds up.
So I keep hearing that Greece has a low retirement age - but every time I read that I immediately read something else saying that that is bollocks. If you look on Wikipedia it says 67 or something, towards the higher end. What's the truth of the matter and why can't anyone agree on it? Is it more complicated?

Mr. Tea
02-07-2015, 02:49 PM
I think they may have had to substantially raise it a few years ago. And there are (or were) quite a lot of jobs from which you could retire much earlier than the standard age.

luka
05-07-2015, 10:13 PM
Still interesting and educational