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luka
16-04-2015, 02:57 PM
I LOVE MUSIC DISCUSSES JUNGLE

It couldn't survive, thank christ. The rhythmic parameters of the genres were so small that the entire collected body of jungle could be summed up on a 'jungle setting' on a Casio. "Renegade Snares" is all I ever needed, personally.

― dave q, Friday, 31 August 2001 00:00 (13 years ago) Permalink

It became dated so quickly because it was ideal for use as incidental music between TV shows etc. Also, if the description "dance music you can't dance to" can be applied to Cabaret Voltaire, how much more can it be applied to Jungle! As something which was very much rooted in the dance music scene, it appeared to be promising something it couldn't deliver. Mind you, it was quite fun watching people trying to dance to it...

― MarkH, Friday, 31 August 2001 00:00 (13 years ago) Permalink

Gareth - to answer your questions: no, I don't listen to it; no, it is not nostalgic for me; no, there is no canon, for by my lights it is a sequence of abominations.

― the pinefox, Friday, 31 August 2001 00:00 (13 years ago) Permalink

Jungle is cool but it hardly ever feels, for lack of a better word, spontaneous.

― Tracer Hand, Friday, 31 August 2001 00:00 (13 years ago) Permalink

Jungle - ugly music for people who just can't dance.

― russ t, Tuesday, 27 May 2003 09:07 (11 years ago) Permalink

nebbesh - 'raving'...err....whaaaat?! 'raving'....what the FUCK has 'raving' (how quaint) got to do with JUNGLE?!?!?!?!?!

And for the record - accept it... jungle is music for people who have absolutely no natural rhythm. Ugly music. It's the genre that the genuine clubbers avoid like the plague because of the hideous attitude and violence that it's associated with. Uusally because most 'junglists' are aged 15.

And I never ever went to any clubs where jungle would get people err... 'tearing out'. And I live in Bristol, mate, one of the natural original homes of jungle, so there aint nothing you can preach or teach to me about the genre.

Jungle - you'll be hiding your jungle vinyl with acute embarrassment in a few years. See also Happy Hardcore, another kiddie genre.

Deeply dud, extremely nasty.

― russ t, Tuesday, 27 May 2003 12:28 (11 years ago) Permalink

how on earth are you meant to dance to jungle? it's like idm to me tbh

― lex pretend, Friday, 28 October 2011 09:27 (3 years ago) Permalink

the rhythms are just too messy for me and the drum sounds are not very thrilling. i don't find the rhythms dazzling at all, they just seem entirely and randomly pointless. they don't go anywhere or resolve, i can't use them for anything...

― liberté, égalité, beyoncé (lex pretend), Tuesday, 10 April 2012 13:01 (3 years ago) Permalink

the focus on undanceable rhythms that just code as "wacky" and purposeless to me

― lex pretend, Tuesday, April 10, 2012 10:21 AM (12 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i listened to "inner city life" yesterday and really enjoyed it though

― liberté, égalité, beyoncé (lex pretend), Thursday, 12 April 2012 07:46 (3 years ago) Permalink

luka
16-04-2015, 02:58 PM
GRIME vs JUNGLE?
oh man...this is like asking me if i want aids or cancer.

i guess i choose grime cause it's easier to say.

― That One Guy (That One Guy), Wednesday, 27 June 2001 02:59 (13 years ago) Permalink

I like the grime sound, but the songs aren't about anything and they're completely un-raveable and just really fucking aggressive. Listen to some of the new ragga-jungle coming in from america and canada and you'll get what im saying. Jungle's started again out their and their are some amazing new producers like 16 Armed Jack (the Jimi Hendrix Of jungle!) coming out and they've got that whole reggae soundclash dubplate culture going on. Check www.ragga-jungle.com 's download section for some new ill jungle.

― Dr. Colossus, Wednesday, 3 August 2005 14:17 (9 years ago) Permalink

luka
16-04-2015, 02:58 PM
I LOVE MUSIC DISCUSSES DIZZEE RASCAL

The album is shit. boring amatuerish crap...

― Savin All My Love 4 u (Savin 4ll my (heart) 4u), Tuesday, 9 September 2003 22:46 (11 years ago) Permalink

All right, ILM loves Dizzee Rascal, and I completely do not get it.

I have given it many chances out of curiosity and I just cannot see why some people are militant over it. It reads like sub-par American commercial R&B with verbally impaired MC's blathering on about clichéd nothings over the top.

What am I missing here? Is this desperate anglophilia? Is this the need to like England so much that you will accept sub-par musical output? Is it a drug thing, am I not taking the right drugs to get into his stuff? So what is the story, what am I not seeing?

― Mike Taylor (mjt), Sunday, 22 June 2003 16:11 (11 years ago) Permalink

To me, I have seen enough electronic music styles come and go over the last eight years to take everything with a grain of salt. What I am hearing is wack laptop synthesis with so-so song writing and mc's who cannot flow. It does not sound zesty or fucked up, it just sounds like a sterile laptop production with some dude from down the street laying down a weak rap over the top.

― Mike Taylor (mjt), Sunday, 22 June 2003 16:27 (11 years ago) Permalink

Upon listening to the song I Luv U, and not knowing anything at all about Dizzy Rascal, I'd like to comment that the music is amazingly great, and the rappers voice is incredibly annoying/retarded sounding.

― David Allen, Tuesday, 24 June 2003 22:13 (11 years ago) Permalink

actually, he sounds like an English Fred Durst.

― Mike Taylor (mjt), Tuesday, 24 June 2003 23:50 (11 years ago) Permalink

Oh my god he does kinda sound like Fred Durst!!

― Adam A. (Keiko), Tuesday, 24 June 2003 23:55 (11 years ago) Permalink

took almost 10 years, but i can recognize this now for the crap it is

― Poliopolice, Thursday, 23 February 2012 19:22 (3 years ago) Permalink

do they not have guns in england? wtf

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 19:58 (11 years ago) Permalink
i bet he was stabbed by a "hooligan"

― jess (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 19:59 (11 years ago) Permalink
possibly a scallywag

― robin (robin), Tuesday, 8 July 2003 20:07 (11 years ago) Permalink

Rascal brings nothing new to the malt liquor warped table that is mainstream, american hip-hop. However, this fact can only aid his conquest for fifteen minute attention and success. More accent than he is wit, more hype than he is hope, Rascal will be old news on the street by 2005.

― Kevin M. Falahee, Monday, 16 February 2004 04:21 (11 years ago) Permalink

Why should I get excited about nine millimeters ending debates when in American songs the guns actually GO OFF?

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 13 February 2004 22:57 (11 years ago) Permalink

A knife? Oh, how hardcore.

Ayia Napa bo indeed.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Wednesday, 9 July 2003 09:29 (11 years ago) Permalink

50 Cent's raised the bar, this papercut nonsense ain't gonna cut it stateside

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 9 July 2003 11:17 (11 years ago) Permalink

Perhaps if Dizzee was stabbed 8 times, then he might be on Fiddisen's level. As it stands, I'm reminded of Rich Hall's stand-up routine on the comparative dangers of America and the UK? "A knife? Being stabbed would be fucking nostalgic. I ain't seen a knife since West Side Story"

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Wednesday, 9 July 2003 12:18 (11 years ago) Permalink

you don't want to walk around on a council estate, you might meet a RUFFIAN or a THUGGISH GOON.

― adam.r.l. (nordicskilla), Wednesday, 16 February 2005 23:41 (10 years ago) Permalink

What ho my nizzler

― Alienus Quam Reproba (blueski), Wednesday, 16 February 2005 23:46 (10 years ago) Permalink

(are there any grime tracks about knives/fights? "Mi Penknife Weighs a Ton" or something? Seriously?)

― David Merryweather (DavidM), Thursday, 17 February 2005 00:06 (10 years ago) Permalink

grime/dizze rascal is crap why do pretentious music critics like this garbage so much? give me real us hip hop like atmosphere any day.

― Argot, Wednesday, 16 February 2005 17:31 (10 years ago) Permalink

i agree. grime is just a really cheap version of hip hop if you ask me. i mean, just look at that terrible run the road compilation that pitchfork were praising, i downloaded it and it's just poor hip hop with horrible british accents over the top. i don't get why the critics love all this stuff though it's probably for similar reasons to why they like mia ie they want to look cool.

― critic hater, Wednesday, 16 February 2005 19:46 (10 years ago) Permalink

and i agree about atmosphere too, atleast they have good lyrics as well as music. run the road is just another bad copy of hip hop, the brits will never get it right and should just give up really.

― critic hater, Wednesday, 16 February 2005 20:21 (10 years ago) Permalink

seriously, can someone explain the appeal? especially of dizzee?

i have the original grime comp on rephlex and i like it. reminds me a lot more of older industrial stuff than anything else. i also have the impression the artists on that comp are a bunch of white-guy bedroom rocking outsiders. but i can't find anything appealing about this squeaky-voiced dude with no rhythmn and lame rhymes (like rhyming 'there' with 'their').

i was really excited about this genre when i first heard of it. i was prepped for it when i heard it was similar to the streets's first album, which i liked alright... but once i heard it, the love for dizzee's first album just threw me for a loop. if i tried playing this stuff for any of my american hip hop friends, they would laugh me out of the party.

― ugly and mean, Monday, 25 July 2005 23:22 (9 years ago) Permalink

rubberdingyrapids
16-04-2015, 03:19 PM
lol

"i bet he was stabbed by a "hooligan""

this did make me think of what should be a sub strand in grime though, hooli-grime (discarda, dogzilla, etc).

luka
16-04-2015, 03:22 PM
Dagenham owned that micro genre

Corpsey
16-04-2015, 04:27 PM
You're obviously cherry-picking the worst comments but still absolutely digustipating.

Jungle ''undanceable'' LOL

rubberdingyrapids
16-04-2015, 04:29 PM
i want to read more lol

Corpsey
16-04-2015, 04:30 PM
Also love the macho ''stabbing is nothing'' stance of these fixed gear riding latte slurpers. (Not like us Dissensus wronguns.)

I guess ILX is to grime/jungle what Dissensus is to hip-hop/RNB i.e. clueless?

Corpsey
16-04-2015, 04:33 PM
tbf, I'm surprised that ANY americans liked grime back in the early noughties. I remember posting on an american rap forum at the time and the general perception of british people rapping being somewhere on the same level of esteem as child abusers.

I wonder if this has changed since, and if that could be partly cos the range of accents you hear in rap music now is so much wider.

Leo
16-04-2015, 04:46 PM
tbf, I'm surprised that ANY americans liked grime back in the early noughties. I remember posting on an american rap forum at the time and the general perception of british people rapping being somewhere on the same level of esteem as child abusers.

I wonder if this has changed since, and if that could be partly cos the range of accents you hear in rap music now is so much wider.

grime never got anywhere here, aside from with a small constituency of hipster music nerds. certainly never made it to any level of commercial success.

luka
16-04-2015, 04:55 PM
i want to read more lol

Dive in pluck your own pearls from the cesspool

rubberdingyrapids
16-04-2015, 04:56 PM
drake and kanye have had some impact i think... not for everyone, but for the more adventurous rap listener.

Corpsey
16-04-2015, 07:17 PM
grime/dizze rascal is crap why do pretentious music critics like this garbage so much? give me real us hip hop like atmosphere any day.

― Argot, Wednesday, 16 February 2005 17:31 (10 years ago) Permalink

http://i.imgur.com/kHJIfOY.gif

luka
17-04-2015, 07:58 AM
i guess i shouldn't put too much emphasis on the fact that most grime mcs are black and urban. right? that doesn't matter. it's the sounds and it's all subjective and it's not really real, no one is suffering, everything is fine, he's from hackney and he hacks knees, how clever
― cloverlandthug, Thursday, 15 January 2004 03:50 (11 years ago) Permalink

luka
17-04-2015, 08:21 AM
Mock me if you like, but PM Dawn's "Set Adrift On Memory Bliss" can choke me up as thoroughly as any song in any genre ever has.
I'd agree that there are limitations or at least tendencies to the emotional terrain that hip-hop covers -- but I think that's true of any genre really. Which is why it's important to me to listen to a variety of genres, depending on my mood.
― Ian White, Saturday, 10 March 2001 01:00 (14 years ago) Permalink

luka
17-04-2015, 08:28 AM
my definition of a boombastic jazz style (wash your face in my sink). howzabout ll cool j's "i need love" or kool keith "the girls don't like the job". wu tang make me dreadfully sad and tearful with their uninspired production & tedious milking of the getto "schtick". rise above like black flag said. representing my arse -resenting more like - what ever happened to the imagination exemplified by i dunno prbly poor example - but egyptian lover's "egypt,egypt" or "girls" or grandmaster's "scorpio"? howzabout clouddead? or 2 live crew's "private dancer" that exudes a real sense of desperation & loneliness - it depends how you read it.
― bob snoom, Saturday, 3 November 2001 01:00 (13 years ago) Permalink

luka
17-04-2015, 08:47 AM
U Our local scene is quite vibrant, geordie accents and rap go well together, the content beats all the ' mo'bills an' ho's'' end of the U.S. market - soon enough we'll have our Mannie Fresh
― Geordie Racer, Friday, 13 April 2001 00:00 (14 years ago) Permalink

You want underground? You want street cred? Look for Edan. You want street cred and the new-hip-hop-prog movement? Look for Deltron 3030.
― JM, Saturday, 4 August 2001 00:00 (13 years ago) Permalink

The last hip-hop album I think I actually bought was New Kingdom's PARADISE DON'T COME CHEAP (which had two great singles, "Mexico or Bust" and "Co-Pilot") and that was what? 1996? I miss the days when hip-hop seemed to be exploring more adventurous avenues (the Native Tongue stuff, Dream Warriors, Tribe Called Quest), but it's all yawnsome playa-bling-bling-whatever crap now (to my ears at least).
― Alex in NYC, Friday, 2 November 2001 01:00 (13 years ago) Permalink

I swear by Edan, who's so obscure you can really only get his shit off of... Edan. Company Flow is legendary around here as are Non Phixon who's "I Shot Regan" never really made it out of the mixing stage -- finding the album is harder than all get out. The last Pharcyde album was great. Thirstin Howl is hilarious and Brooklyn Hard. Look out for The Last Emperor, the new Can Ox... uh... albums... Deltron 3030 is interspectacular... Handsome Boy, Quality Control...
― JM, Friday, 2 November 2001 01:00 (13 years ago) Permalink

I don't know if Talib Kweli is still considered underground, but I can't get enough.
I like Dalek's album a lot, though it could use a bit more 'meat' in certain ways.
Hiphop or not, I think a good portion of Saul William's album is brilliant.
The new Dilated Peoples is GRATE (whee, I've been waiting to use that lovely word for quite a while).
-- Jordan, Thursday, November 1, 2001 7:00 PM (6 years ago) Bookmark Link

Actually, the question is slightly flawed. Hip hop isn't a musical genre, it's a lifestyle. There's four elements of hip hop: deejaying, breakdancing, rapping, and grafiti. I'm assuming you wanted good examples of the 1st and 3rd, right?
― Judd Nelson, Thursday, 16 May 2002 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

Is Ludacris some how taking the piss out of rappers? His single ('roll out'?) surely is some kind of ironic diss to bling (braindead vague party call/response hook: check), with it mentioning his naked cooks and having the big head (ego) video. Also his name implies some kind of preposterousness.
Anyway Search: Roots Manuva, Public Enemy 1987-92, Tribe called quest, Q-tip solo
Destroy MOP. forever. to bits.
― Barnaby, Friday, 17 May 2002 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

A cultural genre encompassing the four (sometimes five) elemens: MCing, DJing, breakdancing, and graf art (sometimes including beatboxing).
― Dom Passantino, Friday, 19 July 2002 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

yeah the state of hiphop is pretty bad. The bling blingers with diva's crap has to go. There is some good hiphop still coming out like J-Live, 7L and Esoteric, Eyedea, Atmosphere, Blackalicious, J5, etc. but this is the minority
― Ben Silver (Ben Silver), Wednesday, 9 April 2003 15:30 (12 years ago) Permalink

Hi, i've been reading ILM for a while now and have decided to start my first thread.
I have been listening to indie and alternative music most of my life, but in a recent shopping trip I decided to buy an album called "The War Report" by two rappers called Capone N Noreaga because it was very cheap in a sale and I liked the colours on the sleeve. This isn't the first hip hop I've ever heard but hitherto this purchase i've always been pretty ambivalent to rap music despite it being the biggest music in the world.
So anyway, I listened to the cd and really enjoyed it. The music gets a bit boring after a while, but I like the two rapper's personalities and the clear friendship and loyalty between them is very touching.
Other hip hop I have heard other than snippets on TV and radio has always been on the more "indie" side and i have never really enjoyed it. I'm aware of a large contingent of hip hop "heads" on ilm and would fully appreciate your input into this thread.
Thanks,
Danny S
― Danny Sewell, Wednesday, 6 August 2003 11:37 (11 years ago) Permalink

Thanks all. Can anyone tell me what the best DMX album is? I heard a song recently where he barks like a dog and he sounded like an interesting personality.
― Danny Sewell, Wednesday, 6 August 2003 13:01 (11 years ago) Permalink

luka
17-04-2015, 09:37 AM
i mean, i should also probly make it clear i think giggs is fucking terrible. he sounds just like probly-not-even-playing-football-any-more's shabazz baidoo when he was doing his mc terminator comedy schtick. (which was just him talking like arnie.)(which everyone thought was rubbish, obv.)
― r|t|c, Monday, 15 December 2008 22:30 (6 years ago) Permalink

luka
17-04-2015, 09:43 AM
Actually r/t/c is one of the not-mugs tbf
Eg
what makes k-punk most intolerable for me, quite frankly, is that he totally lacks flair.
otoh, if the two of them think a new miserly continuum is the best available stick for beating down bullshit like zomby then MARCH ON, MY RHIZOMORPHIC NODES!!!111!
― r|t|c, Thursday, 12 February 2009 22:16 (6 years ago) Permalink

Good opinions

luka
17-04-2015, 09:58 AM
So yeah, a couple of years ago it felt like a load of British rap fans were overcompensating for pop-grime by throwing their weight behind these really limited MCs like Tempah T and Giggs and whoever, who nevertheless had impeccable hardcore credentials. That's exactly what the Hard In Da Paint bandwagon reminds me of, it just sounds lumbering and clumsy to me.
― Matt DC, Thursday, 27 January 2011 20:46 (4 years ago) Permalink

luka
17-04-2015, 10:01 AM
I wonder what they have to say about burial

luka
17-04-2015, 10:22 AM
1. Debbie Deb - Lookout Weekend (Instrumental)
2. Untold - U-29
3. Jam City - Barely A Trak
4. Boddika - Basement
5. Egyptrixx - Liberation Front (Mike Q Remix - Bok Bok Re-Edit)
6. Ikonika - PR812
7. Pangaea - Runout
8. Jam City - Arpjam (Devil Mix)
9. Ikonika - With Your Face
10. Bok Bok - Reminder
11. A1 Bassline - Falsehood
12. Optimum - Afterglow
13. Mensah - The Resistance
14. French Fries & Bambounou - Hugz
15. Ikonika - I Make Lists

― lex pretend, Tuesday, 10 May 2011 07:30 (3 years ago) Permalink

Benny B
17-04-2015, 11:28 AM
Actually r/t/c is one of the not-mugs tbf
Eg
what makes k-punk most intolerable for me, quite frankly, is that he totally lacks flair.
otoh, if the two of them think a new miserly continuum is the best available stick for beating down bullshit like zomby then MARCH ON, MY RHIZOMORPHIC NODES!!!111!
― r|t|c, Thursday, 12 February 2009 22:16 (6 years ago) Permalink

Good opinions

r|t|c and tim f are the only two who really know their onions when it comes to uk nuumy type stuff on ilx. when them two get going its actually far more interesting than the equivalent dissensus threads tbh

the start of the jackin house thread is a good example (not sure if this is even worse than the dissensus one or not. Maybe we could do a poll, throw in the starts to the funky,bassline and shufflin threads too)

Jackin' House partisans, convince a skeptic
Not all messages are displayed: show all messages (406 of them)
Tim F, now is your time to shine.

― Not The Other One (Mr Andy M), miércoles 25 de julio de 2012 16:52 (2 years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Where does the line come between funky, jackin and afrobeats? I still don't really understand the differences clearly.

― boxedjoy, jueves 26 de julio de 2012 19:16 (2 years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I'm not ignoring this thread btw.

― Tim F, jueves 26 de julio de 2012 23:21 (2 years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I don't think afrobeats really has a line (because afrobeats is an umbrella term rather than a genre or scene per se), there could be funky afrobeats and for that matter jackin afrobeats if the artists in question fancy it.

― Matt DC, jueves 26 de julio de 2012 23:25 (2 years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Where does the line come between funky, jackin and afrobeats? I still don't really understand the differences clearly.

Well I'm not an expert either but I think it mostly comes down to the different kind of beats. Funky = beats with clave/3:2 type snare patterns at about 130bpm. Jackin = much straighter-sounding beats with the snares on the 2 and the 4 in each bar. I think Jackin tunes tend to be slightly slower too, closer to 120bpm but could well be wrong on this.
Afrobeats is a bit more diverse and harder to pin down. Some of the beat patterns are def similar to Funky, but the genre covers a lot of different types of beats at different tempos. The main thing that marks it out is obv the influence from African music, and a lot tunes have vocals or MCing done in West African accents + patois. That's the other thing that separates it from Funky and Jackin, it's more heavily vocal/song orientated.

― Not The Other One (Mr Andy M), jueves 26 de julio de 2012 23:34 (2 years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

why does it have such a terrible name

― 40oz of tears (Jordan), jueves 26 de julio de 2012 23:36 (2 years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Terrible names are just a tradition in uk dance music at this stage tbh.

― Not The Other One (Mr Andy M), jueves 26 de julio de 2012 23:41 (2 years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Great name duh.

― Tim F, viernes 27 de julio de 2012 0:09 (2 years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

is this a thing? how is it different to...house music

these were basically the only tracks on the summer jams thread that weren't amazing, right?

― lex pretend, viernes 27 de julio de 2012 0:12 (2 years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

wrong.

― Tim F, viernes 27 de julio de 2012 0:22 (2 years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

hey i put dj ma1 in mix and you still don't listen whys that

― the late great, viernes 27 de julio de 2012 0:24 (2 years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i'm sorry i misunderstood this to be about acid house, not a subgenre of funky

― the late great, viernes 27 de julio de 2012 0:25 (2 years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

It's not really different to house music (at this stage) - comparable to late 06 / 07 funky in that regard, with different sonic reference points.

Which means it has roughly the same capacity for greatness as you might expect of music "not really different to house music" - quite a lot as it turns out! But I'm not obsessed with it the way I was with funky this time four years ago.

I can't post youtubes at the moment but suffice to say Hannam and Garnett's "you want me" is total top five of the year.

― Tim F, viernes 27 de julio de 2012 0:27 (2 years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i am ignoring this thread btw

― r|t|c, viernes 27 de julio de 2012 0:29 (2 years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

luka
17-04-2015, 11:40 AM
Finney is a secular saint above all criticism like David Attenborough

luka
17-04-2015, 11:42 AM
Also fully agree that the level of 'discourse' on dissensus is 'slow readers class '

But this is a different thread

Corpsey
17-04-2015, 12:51 PM
Finney and David Drake post on Ilx so its always worth a read. Also they did some brilliant poll posts and when we tried on dissensus it was a non starter.

rubberdingyrapids
17-04-2015, 01:01 PM
we should all just post on ilx instead. ask them to create a new 'i love dissensus' sub board for us.

CrowleyHead
17-04-2015, 01:24 PM
David Drake's ability to throw tantrums when someone disagrees on him isn't exactly a selling point Corpsey...

luka
17-04-2015, 01:29 PM
Cmon that's the appeal. He provides a lot of comedy

luka
17-04-2015, 01:35 PM
That tin ear for a joke and unbending obtuseness has provoked so many hilarious 'debates'

rubberdingyrapids
17-04-2015, 02:13 PM
im sure RTC knows his shit, but i find his posts unnecessarily wordy, like every post is some *hilarious* insider joke. a bit like an energy flash will self.


u know, even though i think i subconsciously only made this thread in the first place to feel the self-lacerating pain of ilm douches getting happy/getting it all wrong (curmudgeon obv STRAIGHT AWAY gettin his dj/rupture global village mode on lol ouch) this is still a fucking lame effort on yalls part!! i mean yeah fine racionate kurupt's position in the rap discourse landscape all you want if it beats back tuomas' truly spectacular challops ("bra-zilliant atmosphere, without a brassiere" i see no problem here dude) but i just thought it would appeal more to not-just-the-usual folks along some universal silly timbo/bubba sparxx 03 throwback glorious mess lines.


when you were wondered earlier why all this wasn't getting the exposure & exegesis of grime/2step/jungle i tried to imagine what the average punter was thinking, and haha the furthest i got - for all the innovations there've been, subtle and overt - was "just house music, innit." and then i realised that only a rattle-headed dissensian fool could ever consider this anything but a great thing.

luka
17-04-2015, 02:18 PM
The ilxor cryptic crossword house style, I quite like it even though I also sort of find it disgusting

I thought dave tomkins was more an influence on that than Reynolds tho

Also you just used the word 'parse' which is ilxor house style too, like
Such and such 'codes as'
It's infectious
Rtc is the best at it

rubberdingyrapids
17-04-2015, 02:26 PM
yeah, tompkins is prob right. im not really into that sort of 'drunk on my dizzying wordplay' style of writing. tompkins also just sounded nerdily in love with writing IIRC (never really read him beyond the wire tbh), rather than smug and pompous. actually, forget will self, its like reading a nuumy boris johnson.

john eden
17-04-2015, 04:16 PM
How did ILX start - they always seemed really in love with the idea of being music journalists?

Whereas this place was started by music bloggers, which is easy to mock - but I'd argue made it more accessible. More to my taste anyway.

luka
17-04-2015, 04:33 PM
Offshoot of Tom ewings freaky trigger

john eden
17-04-2015, 04:48 PM
Ah OK.

It would be great and probably similarly embarrassing if Dissensus had an archive going back to 2001...

m99188868
21-04-2015, 11:36 AM
I never understood the adoration for music journalists.

I won't try to put a number on it, but how much of what passes under that term outdoes marketing blurb (like, say, what's on Boomkat) in quality of writing, theoretical depth or historical overview?
It's a pity the blogs went away. At least, there was some heartfelt enthusiasm.

trilliam
21-04-2015, 12:06 PM
almost as bad as this site

somb 4tw

rubberdingyrapids
21-04-2015, 12:32 PM
who does the writing for boomkat?

i read some good stuff on the RA site from time to time.

i think people often want diff things from 'music journalism' but i think it def has its uses.

love the writing on boomkat but its not journalistic.

Leo
21-04-2015, 02:09 PM
boomkat buyers write their own (usually gushing) blurbs if they are really into something, but most of the product descriptions are just a copy/paste of the record company's promo blurb. you can tell because you can find the exact same blurbs on other sales sites and music blog "news" sections (as opposed to their review sections).

Leo
21-04-2015, 02:12 PM
sometimes i just want a description of what a record sounds like, as opposed to a deep theoretical analysis (sometimes poorly done) of how a track fits into the current scene or the artist's overall body of work. and honestly, a huge proportion of dance music doesn't merit a deep analysis.

rubberdingyrapids
21-04-2015, 02:52 PM
true, i just want a scale of how bangin it is

datwun
22-04-2015, 08:08 AM
Were you to try and do some serious music journalism about dance music, who would publish it? My deep tech bit was more on the side of 'bigging up music I like' than deep cultural analysis and even then it felt luxuriously esoteric in the context of the Guardian's other music writing.

It's why for how insanely slow dissensus has got recently even compared to my joining a couple of years ago, let alone to those hallowed golden years where everyone was calling everyone fascists and getting kicked off the board, were it to disappear altogether it would still be a massive loss. A community of people who care about and think about and write about dance music and constantly uncover the best new and old music. Totally unthinkable in Japan for one, and actually kind of an amazing thing.

luka
22-04-2015, 08:55 AM
I don't understand why it is so slow even, members should take more responsibility for keeping it moving. Otherwise it loses all value as a procrastination tool

There's enough people on here for it to be a lot sparkier

luka
22-04-2015, 09:01 AM
I feel like a outwardly jolly but secretly despairing primary school teacher trying to come up with activities to keep the class entertained

rubberdingyrapids
22-04-2015, 10:33 AM
dissensus is also a nicer place to visit than ilx

Benny B
22-04-2015, 11:08 AM
hmmm...

boomkat prose and niceness vs deep theoretical analysis, wit, cryptic ponderings and big egos/personalities?

rubberdingyrapids
22-04-2015, 11:10 AM
i dont see any posts about tongueing ass on ilx.

Benny B
22-04-2015, 11:10 AM
hmmm...

deep theoretical analysis, wit, cryptic ponderings and big egos/personalities?

not saying ive ever contributed much of this btw, but i know what id rather read

Benny B
22-04-2015, 11:14 AM
those things are here too

i dont see any posts about tongueing ass on ilx.

sure, but dont pretend its anything like it used to be.

rubberdingyrapids
22-04-2015, 11:18 AM
yeah its not.
its more like a home for people with no other forum to go to. just coming here prob as theyve been using it for a while.
some sort of peer promotion needs to happen for new people to join.

luka
22-04-2015, 11:18 AM
Benny b-slut, plays for both sides, ban him lol

rubberdingyrapids
22-04-2015, 11:19 AM
be interested to know how many ppl on ilx are under 30 (or 35 even lol) though
obv everyone on dissensus is over 40

luka
22-04-2015, 11:20 AM
The way ilm bullies newcomers is very weird they need to take a look on the mirror there. I've seen that racoon tanuki stuff, he's no more clueless or gauche than Anyone else there

rubberdingyrapids
22-04-2015, 11:28 AM
yeah that was pretty nasty. one thing to disagree or laugh at someone, another to ban them repeatedly, just for not following the crowd.

luka
22-04-2015, 12:51 PM
Dissensus has plenty of under 30s they have their own subforum called the shuffling thread

datwun
22-04-2015, 02:13 PM
Dissensus has plenty of under 30s they have their own subforum called the shuffling thread

I lolled for truth.

datwun
22-04-2015, 02:18 PM
I don't understand why it is so slow even, members should take more responsibility for keeping it moving. Otherwise it loses all value as a procrastination tool

There's enough people on here for it to be a lot sparkier

Aye, true that, guess you get out what you put in.

I wonder if it's partly to do with the lack of anything new in music? I'd say the most interesting threads of the last couple of years have been the jackin and shuffling ones. These were best when everyone was still figuring out what was going on, and there was more argument and debate. Now everyone's pretty much come round to deep tech - and I mean, why wouldn't you? It's wicked music - the only thing to do is post tunes..

Dunno though, you guyz all live in the UK, shouldn't people be out there like, listening to music in music clubs?

luka
22-04-2015, 02:52 PM
Have you lived London? No one goes out in London we just like knowing the options there lol

Leo
22-04-2015, 02:58 PM
dissensus was/is always better back in the day but it's still better and more interesting that other music boards filled with blowhards who are too concerned with trying to one-up and out-cool each other about what they've discovered and like/dislike. it's more down to earth here, and i'd miss it greatly if it went away.

just to clarify my earlier comments, i still enjoy reading insightful analysis or scene summaries (like datwun's guardian piece). when it comes to new tracks, though, a short and simple boomkat-like "what it sounds like" description is fine by me.

datwun
22-04-2015, 03:01 PM
Born and raised yo.

Fully aware that London's going in a terrible direction - more broadly with the lack of anywhere to live and everything costing way too fucking much and specifically with clubs and licensing and all the terrible young people moving in from the nice parts of Manchester. But there's nothing like living in a city with 3 times the population of London and a night life about 5% the size + with no/overly expensive drugs to make you realise how insanely good you guyz have it

CrowleyHead
22-04-2015, 03:04 PM
Younger Dissensus

luka
22-04-2015, 03:26 PM
"more boozy than druggy": maybe part of why I like it a lot?
― Jordi La Sarge (The Reverend), Sunday, 15 March 2009 23:48 (6 years ago) Permalink

the funky/champagne connection is as strong as any music/drug relationship there's ever been. bubbly bubbly, so damn bubbly
― lex pretend, Sunday, 15 March 2009 23:55 (6 years ago) Permalink

champagne seemed to be "drug" of choice for UKG during that speed->2 step transitional period '97'98 too
― Hard House SugBanton (blueski), Sunday, 15 March 2009 23:58 (6 years ago) Permalink

It's funny, because I've been thinking the exact opposite about the this music, that it brings overtly druggy elements back into the continuum. Certainly a lot of the afterparties I was going to two of three years ago were highly drug fuelled, and the audiences and music being played were directly related to the more 'concrete' scene that exists know.
― Ach!, Monday, 16 March 2009 22:07 (6 years ago) Permalink

i was THEEERRE
― Jordi La Sarge (The Reverend), Monday, 16 March 2009 22:13 (6 years ago) Permalink

Simply an observation of drug use, still relevant. I give up here now.
― Ach!, Tuesday, 17 March 2009 02:29 (6 years ago) Permalink

luka
22-04-2015, 03:28 PM
Ach! Is one of our own, and this really sums up the differences between the two boards

luka
22-04-2015, 03:29 PM
Ilm posters can make a mean word salad but interrupt their blue skies thinking with actual facts and they're quick to close ranks

luka
22-04-2015, 03:33 PM
I think that's reflected in the amount of DJs and producers who have passed thru the dissensus school (as opposed to journalists/critics)
Even if once they've made a name for themselves they stop posting! Cover those tracks lads lol!

luka
22-04-2015, 03:34 PM
The only people who have really got clowned are martin clarke, Joe muggs and tom lea, which I think is telling.

rubberdingyrapids
22-04-2015, 04:18 PM
dissensus in 2015 is like grime from around 2009 to 2013/2014 before skepta put out thats not me

sufi
22-04-2015, 04:44 PM
can someone dig for the ilx on dissensus threads please

luka
22-04-2015, 04:57 PM
http://www.ilxor.com/ILX/FullTextSearchControllerServlet

sufi
22-04-2015, 05:08 PM
http://www.ilxor.com/ILX/FullTextSearchControllerServlet
brilliant, love how the threads start w "well i used to post there but..." & they're from like 2005!

datwun
22-04-2015, 11:10 PM
very pompous at times, and quite self important.
― blahbarian, Friday, April 1, 2005 12:31 PM (10 years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

It's cause we're all really important

UFO over easy
23-04-2015, 01:08 AM
hmmm...

boomkat prose and niceness vs deep theoretical analysis, wit, cryptic ponderings and big egos/personalities?

people who like music vs people who like themselves

m99188868
23-04-2015, 06:26 AM
people who like music vs people who like themselves

Such observations are probably coloured by experiences here or elsewhere, but I refuse to belief being an ass is a formal requirement for writing something about music that transcends the laziness of most music journalists.

Benny B
23-04-2015, 08:30 AM
Look its obvious ilx is 90% insufferable prats.

Benny B
23-04-2015, 08:40 AM
U have to wade thru alot of crap but worth it for certain posters and threads.

Benny B
23-04-2015, 09:30 AM
That tin ear for a joke and unbending obtuseness has provoked so many hilarious 'debates'


Ha did u see the chief keef "hemiola" thing? V funny

luka
23-04-2015, 09:51 AM
Tbf I actually think he's a bulwark against stupidity, but yes, very, very funny

Benny B
23-04-2015, 10:53 AM
The pictures of drake looking ridiculous thread is good for a laugh

luka
23-04-2015, 11:00 AM
You're not entering into the spirit of this thread benny.
We're fostering a siege mentality

luka
23-04-2015, 11:01 AM
Drake thread is pretty funny though

luka
23-04-2015, 11:01 AM
P funny

Benny B
23-04-2015, 11:14 AM
Well i am a slut...

I have actually stuck up for dissensus over on ilx in the past

Later when ive got time ill dig out some proper ilx lols for you, promise

HMGovt
23-04-2015, 11:23 AM
Look its obvious ilx is 90% insufferable prats.

Ever heard of UK-Dance? That was approaching 99% at its peak.

jackjambie
24-04-2015, 11:46 AM
following luka's inspiring roll call - i may well be wrong here, but in terms of things slowing down i'm just going to put my foot in it and say that I think certain ppl have maybe got too into being deep tech evangelists recently ;)

no problem with that (maybe cos it's from london?) and it makes sense obvs, but it was a bit divisive that thread. things have defo happened in the wider world of music that deserve the sort of articulate, amusing and intelligent discussion and opinions that have mainly been being channelled into that one topic...

like - why is there no gqom thread on dissensus? there should be a gqom thread on dissensus, even if it's just a tiny one...kode9 has been playing gqom out as i do believe has blackdown...surely that's enough of a talking point already? i know this isn't dubstepforum but it's not deep tech forum either (don't kill me!). but then i guess a forum is whoever's posting so that is sort of where it is right now so fine.

i guess ppl are really keen to move away from that "rinse" world which is why the deep tech success in london has proved so appealing as a talking point recently...but yea, luka's probs hit the nail on the head with the DJs covering their tracks, not posting about new tunes they've found once they've started a label, started to get DJ bookings etc too...

also - been meaning to say this for a while now but, where the fuck has nuum gone? no posting, no FB, no Twitter, no Insta....let's not forget who started both the jackin AND the deep tech threads :eek:

(#RupertReadComeHome)

jackjambie
24-04-2015, 12:24 PM
i'm only a part timer on here anyway though. have enjoyed some of the recent non-music threads on the D - the one about london, the one about working / jobs - they got ppl talking for a bit.

rubberdingyrapids
24-04-2015, 12:42 PM
not enough people starting new threads. id like one about gqom. african dance music in general actually. personally i like afrobeats more than most deep tech but i should probably just go to ilx for that. though i get tired of non stop youtube links.

CrowleyHead
24-04-2015, 01:02 PM
I'd start threads, but for me its two things

1) I mistrust some of the djs/bloggers/label heads out of fear of what happened with cloud rap when I was active in that circle. I'm not trying to sound delusional, but I felt a part of a scene that went so hideously wrong that it made me a bit hesitant now that my enthusiasm's gone. But case in point, I think I'm the only person who ever mentioned "Freeze Tag Booty" before on here, and then months later I find out from a friend Bok Bok and Ben UFO started playing it. I'm sure there's other possibilities, but stuff like that makes me paranoid, because no offense I'd rather certain records have organic growths than get latched onto by irresponsible people.

2) I don't know if the collective of posters will always appreciate the same things. Like, I really love a lot of the r&B/pop end of ratchet has turned out, but if I do a whole megapost is it gonna be just luka saying "song 5 is wicked, lol @ that chorus, great stuff", and Corpsey coming with three paragraphs talking about the Tinashe album, and that's it...? (Or worse, am I going to hear from friends about Ben UFO now discovering Rayven Justice singles?)

Slothrop
24-04-2015, 01:21 PM
no problem with that (maybe cos it's from london?) and it makes sense obvs, but it was a bit divisive that thread. things have defo happened in the wider world of music that deserve the sort of articulate, amusing and intelligent discussion and opinions that have mainly been being channelled into that one topic...

I guess that to make for lots of discussion, there has to be music around that isn't just good but also has some sort of grand narrative to spin around it. For Dissensus the 'nuum, and how stuff is positioned relative to it, tends to provide the narrative in the background of a lot of the discussion. Now the 'nuum no longer has the only-game-in-town crucialness that it used to, but we haven't got much framework at all for discussing anything much else.

UFO over easy
24-04-2015, 03:15 PM
I'd start threads, but for me its two things

1) I mistrust some of the djs/bloggers/label heads out of fear of what happened with cloud rap when I was active in that circle. I'm not trying to sound delusional, but I felt a part of a scene that went so hideously wrong that it made me a bit hesitant now that my enthusiasm's gone. But case in point, I think I'm the only person who ever mentioned "Freeze Tag Booty" before on here, and then months later I find out from a friend Bok Bok and Ben UFO started playing it. I'm sure there's other possibilities, but stuff like that makes me paranoid, because no offense I'd rather certain records have organic growths than get latched onto by irresponsible people.

2) I don't know if the collective of posters will always appreciate the same things. Like, I really love a lot of the r&B/pop end of ratchet has turned out, but if I do a whole megapost is it gonna be just luka saying "song 5 is wicked, lol @ that chorus, great stuff", and Corpsey coming with three paragraphs talking about the Tinashe album, and that's it...? (Or worse, am I going to hear from friends about Ben UFO now discovering Rayven Justice singles?)

never heard that tune
you're a bellend

message boards are generally just done aren't they? it's hardly unique to dissensus

CrowleyHead
24-04-2015, 03:16 PM
Shame, the tune would be much better than the selection you go through typically.

UFO over easy
24-04-2015, 04:03 PM
i mean i see the problem
on the one hand you stop posting these gems and the board fades away
on the other you keep the place going with your posts, the scene collapses and you're responsible

it's a dilemma

Leo
24-04-2015, 04:05 PM
i get where you're coming from, crowleyhead, there are many cases when things have gone to shit after they've blown up but i'm not sure cultural protectionism is the answer.

what does "organic growth" actually mean? is a scene good only when just a very small tight-knit community know about it? do the artists/producers/DJs in question actually prefer to be sheltered from exposure for the enjoyment of a select few as opposed to being successful on some level (i.e., able to sell records, get gigs, tour, etc.)? and how is it "irresponsible" for a DJ to find out about a cool track and play it?

Benny B
24-04-2015, 04:15 PM
Oh dear...This could be the thread that finally kills off dissensus for good

CrowleyHead
24-04-2015, 04:44 PM
Oh dear...This could be the thread that finally kills off dissensus for good

I'LL BE THAT

@ Leo; Well this is admittedly my reactionary behavior to things I've experienced, and its not necessarily the best, but its influenced by control issues as someone who aggregates content and knows that sometimes it can lead to irresponsible distribution, approaches... I can't even begin to unpack it all without pointing to specific examples and descending into what could just be me sounding like "NYEEEH, YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG" without being in the shoes of the other person.

But I feel like sometimes, when people are sort of performing this sort of activity now its too easy to lead the artist astray. It used to be more about building an audience based around the community or finding a way for the larger genre to let you function. Now its too easy for people who recognize something as being odd-ball and unique to snatch it from that gestation process far too early before it could help the genre before it.

Its like music fans have become eager to snatch premature births from the womb because its more exciting than a healthy birthing. The short term cash & attention is great but how long will it last, will these artists be able to depend on it, and who will put in the time and effort to ensure they get to?

john eden
24-04-2015, 04:48 PM
Ever heard of UK-Dance? That was approaching 99% at its peak.

Good times.

UFO over easy
24-04-2015, 04:53 PM
this is well observed but if you think that you're involved in that process via dissensus in 2015 then yes you are delusional


I'LL BE THAT

@ Leo; Well this is admittedly my reactionary behavior to things I've experienced, and its not necessarily the best, but its influenced by control issues as someone who aggregates content and knows that sometimes it can lead to irresponsible distribution, approaches... I can't even begin to unpack it all without pointing to specific examples and descending into what could just be me sounding like "NYEEEH, YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG" without being in the shoes of the other person.

But I feel like sometimes, when people are sort of performing this sort of activity now its too easy to lead the artist astray. It used to be more about building an audience based around the community or finding a way for the larger genre to let you function. Now its too easy for people who recognize something as being odd-ball and unique to snatch it from that gestation process far too early before it could help the genre before it.

Its like music fans have become eager to snatch premature births from the womb because its more exciting than a healthy birthing. The short term cash & attention is great but how long will it last, will these artists be able to depend on it, and who will put in the time and effort to ensure they get to?

Leo
24-04-2015, 04:58 PM
good points, crowleyhead. the internet certainly makes the potential decline faster than in the past, as trends go viral and spin out uncontrollably. i'm just not sure there's any way to contain the pace of change and development.

CrowleyHead
25-04-2015, 01:06 AM
this is well observed but if you think that you're involved in that process via dissensus in 2015 then yes you are delusional

Don't you have another dully perfect set to cultivate? Go do that.

UFO over easy
25-04-2015, 04:28 AM
Sure. Go critique a blog post.

datwun
25-04-2015, 05:03 AM
following luka's inspiring roll call - i may well be wrong here, but in terms of things slowing down i'm just going to put my foot in it and say that I think certain ppl have maybe got too into being deep tech evangelists recently ;)

(#RupertReadComeHome)


Lolol, I wonder who that could possibly directed at. Unlike a lot of people on this forum, I'm just not very good at keeping track of lots of different musics at the same time. I tend to listen very very heavily and nearly exclusively to a particular sound, while sometimes having an odd week here or there where I check out some older music I've not explored properly, or some other scene I've been meaning to check out. And yeah, as I've got more into DOING label stuff, I've had less time for talking about music here. I do love dissensus though and Luka's right in that us users should take some responsibility for keeping the place alive.

I also miss Continuum, despite the fact that he owes me $$$ for my MDMA.

Could London dying have anything to do with it? Feels harder to get gassed about even exciting pockets of music in the context of the city being gutted from the inside...

luka
25-04-2015, 08:57 AM
There must be more deserving punchbags than BUFO surely?
Out off all the literally millions of DJs I don't listen to he's easily my favourite.
Also when I used the search function I couldn't even find your reference to freeze tag booty, a record BUFO has never played.
I also can't see how k kutta would be anything but nonplussed by a techno dj playing thir song? Not only can I not see how it would harm their career I can't even imagine a scenario where it would have the slightest impact. Two different worlds. It's not analogous to 'night slugs do funky'
Besides which you can't put the genie back in the bottle. The internet exists and it's changed everything and that's that. You can't hide things from the Internet that's like locking your prettiest daughter in the highest tower to keep her pure.

luka
25-04-2015, 08:58 AM
However...

luka
25-04-2015, 09:06 AM
Hypothetically speaking, I don't see why what crowley thought was happening, is necessarily so absurd.
If he had mentioned freeze tag booty, on a forum BUFO and other name brand DJs read, why is it delusional to think that one of those people might actually listen to the song, enjoy it and play it out, in actual nitespots?

A thought experiment I have just conducted suggests to me that that is a perfectly plausible scenario

luka
25-04-2015, 09:08 AM
A simple use if the search function will uncover plenty of examples of dissensus schooling name brand DJs, producers and journalists. It's not a myth

I like forums cos I am a democrat. They might be 'over' in 2015 but I'll fan the embers for a bit still

#edit. But if I ever get successful I'm pretending none of this ever happened, catch ya later suckers

rubberdingyrapids
25-04-2015, 10:54 AM
im sure plenty of djs get tips from online posters. why wouldnt they. i doubt headhunter/addison groove heard about footwork by hanging out in chicago. online lurking is (was?) the new digging. though i dont think this is all djs. most still rely on being sent stuff by people they know (which is another kind of easy option maybe but one people seem to like as it implies a certain scene-membership/commiunity/authenticity etc).

but if you dont want people borrowing your tips, or stealing your selection, people should just remove the artist name or song title when they post it. someone would come along and tell everyone else in about 5 mins anyway but if you want to keep things undercover, you need to think of new ways. its not like the 80s/90s when you could scrub the label off the record.

datwun
25-04-2015, 11:14 AM
doesn't anything on itunes come up if you shazam it anyway?

Or are y'all talking about stuff so underground it's not even in the beatport 100?

rubberdingyrapids
25-04-2015, 11:23 AM
forgot about shazam.

non english songs dont seem to come up on shazam.

that might be the answer if youre trying to keep songs a secret.

its weird thinking about keeping music totally underground though. i mean, people only thought like that when they could afford to, when they knew their stuff had an audience already (albeit small). i dont know if producers still think like that. 'keep it underground' 'keep it local' 'i dont want it getting big' etc. do they? though i get frustrated sometimes listening to rinse cos they dont tell you what the song is so maybe djs still want to be gatekeepers and keep tunes to themselves. but most producers/singers/rappers just want to be heard.

UFO over easy
25-04-2015, 01:52 PM
Hypothetically speaking, I don't see why what crowley thought was happening, is necessarily so absurd.


of course, that's not the absurd bit

CrowleyHead
25-04-2015, 07:22 PM
I actually got Ben confused with Night Slugs because I second guessed my habits of bullying the same 3 people, even if I was right. I'm impressed he still feels sore, and I'm just being catty with the guy. Even if I've never particularly enjoyed his mixes.

And I don't think the artist necessarily thinks its terrible based on who grabs them, because they just want to earn respect, attention and potentially money. That's fine and good, OF COURSE. But long run it can lead to things where the artist doesn't go through the process of the slower build.

Recently though, there are rappers who get internet buzz in non-rap circles that are more eclectic and then attract managers who don't think about promoting them in the traditional rap methods, because they don't know. Instead, they turn to the eclecticism of the blog circles, to content aggregate websites/'publications' focused on newness and 'excitement' rather than courting a genre audience... And then, they get held above the standards of their genre. "YES", these fans cry "they're so experimental, and they are much better than the muck and mire of the genre I don't dedicate myself to!".

So here we have a possible failure in the future. The 'fans' of these artists are now rooting them from the genre audience, they're not going to help these artists become popular within the confines of their genre. Rather, it becomes a muck of 'buzz artists' where you're getting chillwave remixes, or you're remixing some generic indie/dance act on 4AD. And this can last for a 2-3 year period and maybe a couple of albums, until you're spat back out because while the money/fame/attention was good, this isn't a group you can build a core fanbase out of.

"Rap Fans", you can do that out of, and you don't even have to be some Joey Badass style rappity rapper. You can be a antipop consortium type, or a bay area rapper, or a generic street rapper. Yo Gotti is technically a commercial 'failure', but he sustains a lifestyle and a really good career off of his music. These guys who went left for the money can't depend on this audience who have a tendency to go through 'phases' and stick around only for one 'big' record to then vanish.

Is it an exaggerated bit of stress and guilt to feel like "Oh no, I put a link on a blog/forum, now this artist has become FAMOUS and its all my fault, waaaah" ? Yeah, easily. But I am incredibly hesitant to do that reflexively anymore after unintentionally promoting things I feel didn't deserve my effort, or worse, seeing friends and peers hapharzardly promote things that REALLY didn't deserve anyone's effort.

Gombreak
26-04-2015, 10:55 AM
is this the renaissance

Gombreak
26-04-2015, 11:24 AM
Is it an exaggerated bit of stress and guilt to feel like "Oh no, I put a link on a blog/forum, now this artist has become FAMOUS and its all my fault, waaaah" ? Yeah, easily. But I am incredibly hesitant to do that reflexively anymore after unintentionally promoting things I feel didn't deserve my effort, or worse, seeing friends and peers hapharzardly promote things that REALLY didn't deserve anyone's effort.

I have less and less time for this way of thinking, cba being so precious about your hit rate.

CrowleyHead
26-04-2015, 04:15 PM
I have less and less time for this way of thinking, cba being so precious about your hit rate.

I'm not talking about hit rate, I'm talking about being aware of the fact that you're cosigning crap. Not in a "Oh, is this good for the kids" way, but rather "... Does anyone really need to hear this song? Is it really good enough?"

But again, a rush to be a part of the buzz than allow an artist to gestate.

IdleRich
26-04-2015, 06:18 PM
Hypothetically speaking, I don't see why what crowley thought was happening, is necessarily so absurd.
If he had mentioned freeze tag booty, on a forum BUFO and other name brand DJs read, why is it delusional to think that one of those people might actually listen to the song, enjoy it and play it out, in actual nitespots?
A thought experiment I have just conducted suggests to me that that is a perfectly plausible scenario
DJ hears song on forum, likes it, plays it. Totally plausible and totally nothing wrong with it if it did happen I'd have thought. Gotta hear it somehow.

mistersloane
28-04-2015, 04:55 AM
Crowley and Luka both mentioned Freeze Tag Booty, and thanks to them both.

CrowleyHead
28-04-2015, 01:20 PM
Crowley and Luka both mentioned Freeze Tag Booty, and thanks to them both.

Yesterday when I took time out from the debate, I listened to a Boxed set from December and it played the record. I laughed and threw all my papers in the air.

TBH, the only criticism that stings is people think I'm trying to keep my hit rate alive, b/c that's so far from it. Everything else that sounds neurotic and whiny, that's 100% fair.

luka
28-04-2015, 01:42 PM
Yer nan's got a freeze tag booty

griftert
29-04-2015, 06:52 PM
I dunno if this has been mentioned, but isn't one of the changes that's taken place over the last 5 or so years is that 'underground' cache just can't really exist anymore. If you want to hear or find out about any kind of music it's only a click away. I can't imagine anyone growing up now really linking their identity to the music they listened to in the way that was obvious in youth culture gone by. Obviously there will always be scenes but, I'd imagine your kids nowadays wouldn't likely see as much conflict liking one particular genre of music compared to another. Or find their identity in the music they are into. I kind of think this is a good thing tbh.

Otoh I feel kind of burnt out on listening to music. Researching finding out about new/old music, different genres and scenes used to be something I found a great deal of satisfaction in. But I kind of feel like there isn't any mystery anymore. There's no secret scene or undiscovered gems anymore, I've literally heard the entire history of recorded sound, and there's a real jadedness that comes along with that (obviously illusory) thought.

I guess it's art in the age of mechanical reproduction isn't it. And in regards to the notion of the 'aura' of the thing, doesn't the computer now take all of the spent aura from individual products and collate them. I kind of feel like computers have their own particular 'aura' or fetish-object quality that goes along with their perceived limitless potentiality.

griftert
29-04-2015, 06:54 PM
I kind of feel like the same thing holds true for all forms of media. I wonder why anyone would want to start a blog anymore knowing that literally anything you could say has already been said. Maybe that's just defeatism but it feels true. The endless rush of information produces a sense that any particular instance of it is next to worthless.

gremino
30-04-2015, 08:50 AM
I dunno if this has been mentioned, but isn't one of the changes that's taken place over the last 5 or so years is that 'underground' cache just can't really exist anymore. If you want to hear or find out about any kind of music it's only a click away.
but it doesn't mean that the whole world will listen! i don't believe in this argument that there can't be underground with internet - yes the tune you uploaded is available to the (almost) whole world now, but only few might listen to it.

there's loads of cutting edge music around internet, and it frustrates to hear complains how everything can be heard/is already heard, when at the same time the forward thinking stuff gets ignored... :(

rubberdingyrapids
30-04-2015, 12:05 PM
Otoh I feel kind of burnt out on listening to music. Researching finding out about new/old music, different genres and scenes used to be something I found a great deal of satisfaction in. But I kind of feel like there isn't any mystery anymore. There's no secret scene or undiscovered gems anymore, I've literally heard the entire history of recorded sound, and there's a real jadedness that comes along with that (obviously illusory) thought.


impossible. i dont believe you really have heard it all.

and, yes everything is a click away, but doesnt mean you/everyone will make that click.

though saying that, its more just the idea that its all there thats offputting (maybe just cos it lacks the sense of there being any secrets, which is partly what music appreciation was about, finding something new) and led to my own malaise. it takes some of the lustre away to know its all just there (though this goes through phases, sometimes the fact its all so easy to get is exciting, other times it disheartening).

CrowleyHead
30-04-2015, 12:16 PM
There's also the fact that we're ignoring the physical world. Artists use the internet as the communication tool but I feel like you can tell the difference between an artist who's formed their career around the parameters of internet desire and physical parameters of local interests. I know everyone's caught up on the notion that EVERYONE'S PLUGGED IN MAAAAAAN but I feel like with certain communities there has to be a consistent reaction to the localized community you've built with likeminded folks, presuming you've done that.

I get that once music is on the internet, it intangibly achieves instant accessibility, but people construct songs for intended audiences. I also get that sometimes the artist doesn't pick the audience, but don't you think that if an audience comes after something with a perspective that are viciously at odds with that of the artist, it could do harm to the artist's vision?

griftert
30-04-2015, 02:45 PM
but it doesn't mean that the whole world will listen! i don't believe in this argument that there can't be underground with internet - yes the tune you uploaded is available to the (almost) whole world now, but only few might listen to it.

there's loads of cutting edge music around internet, and it frustrates to hear complains how everything can be heard/is already heard, when at the same time the forward thinking stuff gets ignored... :(

Well, I'll believe it when I hear it. I don't know what forward thinking stuff would even sound like nowadays. But yeah I think part of it is 'no secrets' anymore either.

Leo
30-04-2015, 02:55 PM
Otoh I feel kind of burnt out on listening to music. Researching finding out about new/old music, different genres and scenes used to be something I found a great deal of satisfaction in. But I kind of feel like there isn't any mystery anymore. There's no secret scene or undiscovered gems anymore, I've literally heard the entire history of recorded sound, and there's a real jadedness that comes along with that (obviously illusory) thought.

impossible. i dont believe you really have heard it all.

and, yes everything is a click away, but doesnt mean you/everyone will make that click.

though saying that, its more just the idea that its all there thats offputting (maybe just cos it lacks the sense of there being any secrets, which is partly what music appreciation was about, finding something new) and led to my own malaise. it takes some of the lustre away to know its all just there (though this goes through phases, sometimes the fact its all so easy to get is exciting, other times it disheartening).

isn't part of this "burnt out/malaise" also just a symptom of getting older? despite the ideal of staying on top of things, etc., most people eventually tend to settle in with certain artists/genres and fall victim to an "oh, it was better back in the day" mentality. i definitely have this tendency from time to time, so much new stuff just sounds either uninspiring or like a lesser retread of something i liked the first time around.

not too long before i'll be moving the 12"s to the basement and listening to old jazz records...:eek:

luka
30-04-2015, 05:45 PM
"I feel like you can tell the difference between an artist who's formed their career around the parameters of internet desire and physical parameters of local interests."

I don't disagree with this.

luka
30-04-2015, 05:49 PM
Well obviously I don't disagree, I been banging on about it for ages but I'd like to keep talking about it

rubberdingyrapids
01-05-2015, 11:30 AM
"I feel like you can tell the difference between an artist who's formed their career around the parameters of internet desire and physical parameters of local interests."

this is also just the internet's social culture. the idea of not really going against the grain, but working with the grain, helping the grain, being part of the grain.

CrowleyHead
01-05-2015, 04:59 PM
"I feel like you can tell the difference between an artist who's formed their career around the parameters of internet desire and physical parameters of local interests."

this is also just the internet's social culture. the idea of not really going against the grain, but working with the grain, helping the grain, being part of the grain.

No see, therein lies the problem I feel. You can tell a difference between internet mimicry and real life. Even IRL mimics there's... a disambiguation.

You see elements of this in say, 'grime fan-fiction' instrumentals, or in hipster rappers who pretend to have a street image such as Travis Scott or OG Maco specifically. There's this sort of bizarre novelty aspect that is readily accepted without question, and you can tell it has the self-reflexive qualities of the internet behind it. But why is there a need to... to make this 'barrier' art. Art that obviously lifts/draws from the lower classes, but never goes to the effort to engage with the lower classes, unless its on their terms?

Like, the initial wave of middle-class people messing about with grime, there was cross-collaboration, awkward and ungainly as they'd often be, they were there. The effort was made. Can you say the same of a lot of the 2010 onward faces? Its no longer as balanced in my book.

griftert
01-05-2015, 05:21 PM
What if you don't have a culture? Should you just not bother doing anything?

Rudewhy
01-05-2015, 05:24 PM
Oh dear...This could be the thread that finally kills off dissensus for good

Cosign

rubberdingyrapids
01-05-2015, 05:38 PM
What if you don't have a culture? Should you just not bother doing anything?


who doesnt have a culture?

luka
01-05-2015, 06:40 PM
I wonder what rudewhy regretted typing.
Crowleyhead is consciously deliberately laying down the gauntlet. I don't see why that shouldn't be picked up. A bit of honest debate never hurt anyone

luka
01-05-2015, 06:41 PM
Like if he cussed your mum would you be silent lol

CrowleyHead
01-05-2015, 07:34 PM
What if you don't have a culture? Should you just not bother doing anything?

If its not your culture, and you make a point of caring about the culture, you should at least make the point of trying to make your engagement as fair and rewarding as possible, yet also recognize that can greatly affect how your artist looks and views his career. Also, you might not want to support things that undermine and perhaps even go as far as to riddicule the artists who are legitimately trying.

CrowleyHead
01-05-2015, 07:39 PM
Like if he cussed your mum would you be silent lol

Was it here or on another board where I got ill wished upon me by someone for not trying to hear the J Dilla fandom? I know I definitely took a few knocks in that Sacred Cow thread for it.

Dissensus is always fun when someone gets TUFF.

griftert
01-05-2015, 08:01 PM
Who decides whose culture is whose? What are the determining factors?

luka
01-05-2015, 10:07 PM
I like winding up my mates, a lot and I especially like winding up a very good friend of mine who despite being a hiphop obsessive won't engage with anything contemporary besides homeboy sandman and action bronson. So for fun I said white people should never rap, can't rap, by definition which made him really mad, which was obviously my.intention and when he demanded I justify it I sent him this which is deliberately a bit basic and tendentious but also contains a lot of what I believe for better or worse



any given musical form,whether it is rap, reggae,rock or jungle, is an expression, an outgrowth, of culture, of a way of being, a mode of existence, an historical inheritance,a place in society. I think music is like the rhythm of your words, or the rhythm of your walk. i think it is fundamental to your being. it is your breath made audible. the very essence of who you are,and a reflection of those things which made you.

when the blues was taken from the country (delta blues) to the industrial north, it became something completly new. (chicago blues) why? becasue it came from altered cultural and social circumstances. you cannot make delta blues in chicago. the input determines the output if the art is genuine. anything else is mere mimicry.

when hip-hop first arrived in the UK it inspired mimicry. over time it interbred with dance music and reggae and gave birth to a genuine natural art form. jungle. jungle is not mimicry. it is art. it is living culture.

it is my contention that hip-hop is so bound up with the actual fact of being african-american, that no one but african-americans can make it. or, to put it in less inflammatory language, when other people make it,it becomes something different. white-rap,for example.

why does rap from memphis sound so utterly different from rap from new york? the rhythm of life is different. people speak at a different pace, and with different cadence. people walk at a different pace, and with a different rhythm, body language is different,social relations are different, the built and the natural enviroment is different, the weather is different.
if the culture is differernt then necessarily the music will be different as well. the two things are INSEPERABLE.

therefore,a white american, who again, necessrily, inhabits a completely different world to an african-american, rhyming over a beat, will not be making hip-hop,or will at best, be making 'white-rap' or, even worse (becasue of the dishonesty and fraudulence involved) will be making a mimicry, or a forgery.

a white man cannot play the blues. they can play the chords, but they cannot play the blues, becuase they cannot inhabit the experience that informs the blues,that is to say,the experience of being black in america at a time when slavery was in the recent past. I

luka
01-05-2015, 10:10 PM
I think somewhere I might have the more advanced version I've mapped out for myself tomorrow if I get time I might try and look for it

luka
01-05-2015, 10:11 PM
It's not an area where you can draw definite lines in the sand though, that goes without saying

luka
01-05-2015, 10:11 PM
Shared experience giving rise to a shared means of expression is the crux of it I guess

griftert
01-05-2015, 10:23 PM
Good post. I don't have anything to challenge you with luka as I have no sense of cultural identity tbh.

luka
01-05-2015, 10:37 PM
I think our culture is almost invisible like water to fishys

datwun
03-05-2015, 06:46 AM
I like the post Luka.

But isn't it also a bit of a two way street? Like the rhythm of life is affected by culture too? The rhythm of life wherever you go in the world is more similar now than it's every been before, because of certain processes of globalisation that manifest themselves locally, the decline of manufacturing/manual jobs, rise of precarious labour, gentrification, migration etc. Not to mention even more concrete stuff like the fact that whereever you go in the world the way people walk and talk has been altered by the fact that everyone has a smartphone up in their face all the fucking time.

I mean, obviously this homogenisation takes place at different rates among different social classes/races/etc. The hipster being the prime example of the post-geographical class - you meet the exact same people in Old Street or Williamsburg or Hongdae in Seoul or Aoyama in Tokyo. But then black facebook and instragram memes are the same in both the US and the UK, and black youth pretty much everywhere around the world listen to American hip hop.

There are still local scenes and local phenomena of course. One of the things I really loved about Jackin was how bounded it was by geography, like the 8 or so times I've been up to 02:31 in Birmingham to rave, they've guaranteed played You Want Me by Nick Hannam and Tom Zanetti and the crowd has guaranteed sung every word of it. I've never heard a DJ play it in London ever. But then, going back to Brum more recently, they've also played Tchami - Promises every time, again, the crowd going ham for it and someone telling me it was one of the 02:31 anthems now.. But that's also an anthem in the London deep tech scene, and I've met American EDM fans out in Tokyo who go on about loving 'deep house' like Tchami.

I think one of the reasons that it feels like a lot of music is inauthentic these days is because our social environments feel more inauthentic.
The line between local and authentic and internet/ inauthentic is obviously super messy. But maybe 'local' just needs to exist as a paradigm, something to aspire to, something the best music tends to have - the sense of being routed in people's lived experiences and environment. And maybe if like, something being ripped out of it's local/original environment by the internet feels like a process of de-authentication, is it also possible that global phenomena can gain an authentic meaning when incorporated into a local scene. Is Tchami's Promises any less of an authentic 02:31/ deep tech banger for the fact that it was made by a French EDM producer?

gremino
03-05-2015, 09:13 AM
I think one of the reasons that it feels like a lot of music is inauthentic these days is because our social environments feel more inauthentic.
World is changing - inauthentic is the new authentic. Internet is inseparable from present world, and that is reality, so shouldn't we base our music on the reality? I think it's pointless to battle against internet. This is just transitional phase where things feel inauthentic, but trust me, authenticity will never die.

And besides, isn't it pretty sci-fi when world is networked thru information technology :)

lysene_bs6
03-05-2015, 11:22 AM
whereever you go in the world the way people walk and talk has been altered by the fact that everyone has a smartphone up in their face all the fucking time.



this this a thousand times this

firefinga
03-05-2015, 11:17 PM
A few things: Music just isn't as important generally speaking to today's (western world) youth as it was 30, 20 years ago, or maybe still 10 years ago - for several reasons but that's just the facts.

Second thing, specifically concerning this (and other) forums - forums and blogs worked well as a) a supplement for the existing music press/websites b) as a good source for information regarding music. From 2010 onwards - when smartphones and 3/4 G networks became ubiquituous - more and more people access the net via smartphones and these devices are not well suited for forums. If things cant be accassed via apps, (especially) young people dont care.

O hand there's the big homogenizer, the almighty (IMO digi-totalitarian) Facebook. So many sites these days offer access via your facebook login, and I suspect a site which doesn't allow this and instead demands you sign up with distinctive login credentials will chase off people simply because of this - meaning a site like that destroys the "Conveninece" factor.

CrowleyHead
04-05-2015, 01:31 PM
You're absolutely wrong.

vimothy
04-05-2015, 03:30 PM
therefore,a white american, who again, necessrily, inhabits a completely different world to an african-american, rhyming over a beat, will not be making hip-hop,or will at best, be making 'white-rap' or, even worse (becasue of the dishonesty and fraudulence involved) will be making a mimicry, or a forgery.

a white man cannot play the blues

By the same token, a black man cannot play classical music.

CrowleyHead
04-05-2015, 04:12 PM
By the same token, a black man cannot play classical music.

A lot of classical music are ideas taken from Arabian Musical concepts and just distorted over the years so... If you want to hold Luka's declaration as standard, the collective whites have been doing music "wrong" for millenia and we just presume we've got it right. Not improbable.

vimothy
04-05-2015, 04:29 PM
For the purposes of Luka's argument, it doesn't matter whether it was originated by Arabs or Europeans.

griftert
04-05-2015, 04:57 PM
I think the fundamental difference is that the blues is kind of born out of a unique experience of oppression which the musician is attempting to represent via his music. In this sense the blues is quite self-consciously historicised music. Classical music on the other hand is probably much easier related to such 'universals' as love, passion, pain and thus notionally abstracted from any historical context.
Blues is like the limit case though. I'm not sure you get any other examples as extreme.

CrowleyHead
04-05-2015, 05:19 PM
For the purposes of Luka's argument, it doesn't matter whether it was originated by Arabs or Europeans.

Not true. He was talking about cultures, not races, and in a place such as America where segregation is so vivid, you ultimately cannot produce the same thing as any black American artist in music if you're of another ethnicity. Likewise, classical is possibly just as well an original idea from someone else done wrong.

Now, if you're saying that a black person is immersed in a certain culture he will still somehow be ultimately unable to perform that culture's standards of music? That's debatable. But if he's coming from other cultures with his playing and his thoughts informed by his background, than ultimately it will be different and perhaps not 'right'.

Right and wrong binary shit is corny to utilize though, it's just v. effective in dispatching awful white rappers.

griftert
04-05-2015, 05:33 PM
Well I don't think that always holds true. I think thematic content, cultural assumptions are important in determining to what extent someone from a given culture can legitimately 'do' a certain kind of music.
Blues is a powerful example because it is about oppression. I don't know if hip-hop has the same claim because it has expanded its focus from 40 years ago. It's a different beast now. I don't think Riff-Raff is 'wrong' or 'inappropriate' for example. And ultimately race becomes a really weak instrument of judgement because it doesn't tell you in the end what you're looking to find out. Best use your ears.

vimothy
04-05-2015, 08:14 PM
I don't understand how it can be a bad argument in general, yet still be effective at "dispatching awful white rappers". If you take it seriously, it seems you have to conclude that, "a black man cannot play classical" (or whatever -- "black man" and "classical" could be anything, of course, as long as they don't belong to the same cultural tradition or milieu).

CrowleyHead
05-05-2015, 03:20 AM
I don't understand how it can be a bad argument in general, yet still be effective at "dispatching awful white rappers". If you take it seriously, it seems you have to conclude that, "a black man cannot play classical" (or whatever -- "black man" and "classical" could be anything, of course, as long as they don't belong to the same cultural tradition or milieu).

Because no white man will ever ever have the cultural stigma of being black in America point blank period. He will never, ever know that. I've lived in urban NYC, my best friends as a child mostly went public school in Jamaica, Queens, I've known them for years and I will never ever fully experience that culture despite living alongside them in many a way.

You cannot assimilate downwards, you can only appropriate from such a position. Common sense, right? So if you do not have the subliminal culture that has generated the form embodied within your psyche, you can't do it right. Doing it "right" isn't always the necessary goal, so much good music comes out of someone askewing a genre or style, and therein you find some redemptive value or even something of its own.

But ultimately, if you are not of the culture that sires the artform, you could never hope to perform the art as intended. You would ultimately parody or pastiche, and the best you can hope for is that you move past these to something unique. Like say... Plastician's take on grime for example. Its obviously a #take on grime, but grime recognizes it and adopts it into the whole, saying "Yeah, absolutely" the same way they accepted "Midnight Request Line".

What strikes me as a more recent development is that the people who want to do these takes fail to actually work at trying to allow their work to be accepted by the people thriving within the genres, and instead use their positioning to rent credibility through collaboration. In other words, its the difference between the producer Rynsaman and his Bobby Shmurda refix becoming a popular grime instrumental... and various producers who make grime and rent out Riko for a bit of credibility to their status as producers.

luka
05-05-2015, 10:33 AM
Surely, according to this argument, no one can compose classical music in 2015, white or black?

luka
05-05-2015, 10:40 AM
"But isn't it also a bit of a two way street? Like the rhythm of life is affected by culture too?"

Of course

rubberdingyrapids
05-05-2015, 11:13 AM
not enough examples in this thread. just massive generalisations.
mick jagger is terrible as a blues singer.
not sure about robert plant either for that matter.

but those are obvious bad offenders.
something about them being british i think is more of a problem than them being white.

rubberdingyrapids
05-05-2015, 11:36 AM
also, plastician, and mark one, brought a certain element of 'whiteness' to their beats, similar to how anticon, or eminem did in hip hop. though OTOH, this can also be offputting for rap fans who preferred someone like 3rd bass, who didnt sound all that different to the average black rapper. though this also trades on certain assumed cultural factors and what is considered authentic. most of the time its just about what the listener is comfortable with/expects of an artist of a certain race. tim westwood to thread.

Mr. Tea
05-05-2015, 12:32 PM
something about them being british i think is more of a problem than them being white.

Maybe - but are there loads of great white American blues singers? Or any at all? (That's not a rhetorical question btw.)

[Edit: or even any good black British blues singers? I would guess probably not, given the overwhelming importance of reggae rather than blues in British music outside the Stones/Zeppelin etc. blues-rock tradition.]

What about Bowie's take on funk and soul on Young Americans? Is it good "black music" by a white British songwriter/performer, or did he make it enough of his own thing that it can't really be lumped in with the music that inspired it?

slackk
05-05-2015, 12:50 PM
Where does Discarda fit into all this

CrowleyHead
05-05-2015, 12:51 PM
tim westwood to thread.

That's actually funny because I can't think of anyone more authentically hip-hop in my definition who's white, than Tim Westwood. Whereas if you're say, the staff of Stones Throw, I tend to be very very judgmental because they're trying so hard to be this version of hip-hop that has less of a place in the momentum. "Oh dude, what about these leftovers!"

Pyramids and Tea actually hit on what I'm getting at with white dilution resulting in something else. In the regards of being close to the pure forms, they're actually not cutting it, by far. But in what they result in, where they end up taking it, can be entirely rewarding. But you can't always hold it up to the standards of the genre itself. In the case of Bowie, his take on soul did actually have fans in the soul genre. Young Americans, "Fame" especially, were big hits in the R&B market in America. That isn't like, biographical rock-writer myth. And Bowie, for all his success, has always been a relatively cultish figure in the US, so its much easier for him to slip into the R&B crowd on occasion.

When referring to white rappers though, the problem is always that they very rarely adhere their takes to the genre. I guess there's something about the misplacement of rapper's ego and identity that forces them to overtly embody characteristics that's true to them. So say, Eminem, who with Dre was an awkward but not unreasonable hip-hop figure, now stands out like a sore thumb because everything he does has this arena rock filter because he has an audience who cannot be maintained with rap rules.

Interesting someone brought up 3rd Bass as being subtle and blending though, because I'd NEVER say that about them. They certainly fit the parameters of what a rap group should've sounded like at that time, but again, there's something slightly off. The inherent need to police their fellow whites was v.... cute.

rubberdingyrapids
05-05-2015, 12:56 PM
blues and soul are diff i would wager, as soul was much more of a mainstream proposition esp by the mid 70s (though there are still obv battles to do with authenticity etc), and far more pop-friendly then the blues was in its time. i like YA, same as i do the soul-funk-y stuff on diamond dogs and station to station (i like a lot of white soul songs tbh).

but soul was a much more accessible thing, partly to do with its time, but also just as soul was by its nature more about being urbane/sophisticated, optimistic, positive, and embracing the masses, even as it was still the music of the black ghettos in the US. the blues was made with that far less in mind (at least until the 60s). bowie wasnt trying to do the more political end of soul (or try and act like he grew up in the housing projects in chicago). plus he worked with the actual session guys/singers, so he ended up with something that was still his personal slant on the music, but also close to what else was happening in R&B back then.

but like i said, i think its a case by case thing, not one rule fits all. just saying 'white artists' and 'black music' doesnt really do either side any favours. it just becomes a mess when thats all you boil it down to.


Maybe - but are there loads of great white American blues singers? Or any at all? (That's not a rhetorical question btw.)


not sure but i prefer hearing dylan, or whoever sing a blues song (or their version of a blues song) to hearing jagger try and pretend he grew up in louisiana.

rubberdingyrapids
05-05-2015, 01:01 PM
Where does Discarda fit into all this


sort of like elvis, someone who grew up around urban/black music so more 'authentic'. but also bringing white/english culture to the music w/r/t cockney-isms etc so not trying to 'pass' as black. all very messy though when you listen to how most teens in london speak now. bruza and the mitchell bros also muddy this whole argument, being black guys from london sounding like 'white' cockneys (though anyone who grew up in london in the 80s/90s surely knows asian/black people who are cockneys so....).

Mr. Tea
05-05-2015, 01:15 PM
not sure but i prefer hearing dylan, or whoever sing a blues song (or their version of a blues song) to hearing jagger try and pretend he grew up in louisiana.

Can't say I'm a huge fan of Dylan's voice but I take your point about grating accent-mimicry.

slackk
05-05-2015, 01:40 PM
Discarda as Elvis is perfect thanks for that

Pandiculate
05-05-2015, 01:40 PM
sort of like elvis, someone who grew up around urban/black music so more 'authentic'. but also bringing white/english culture to the music w/r/t cockney-isms etc so not trying to 'pass' as black. all very messy though when you listen to how most teens in london speak now. bruza and the mitchell bros also muddy this whole argument, being black guys from london sounding like 'white' cockneys (though anyone who grew up in london in the 80s/90s surely knows asian/black people who are cockneys so....).

this discussion should involve boxed though. thats more interesting to discuss than any of the doggenham lot.

I really don't think this argument works when it comes to places like London, you hear a kid shouting in what someone outside of London would call a 'black accent' but that kid could honestly be any colour and I wouldn't have a clue without looking at them.

I'd say it's much more a working-class/immigrant culture than a black one.

Even most Grime MC's are a mix of Caribbean and African, they are not 'one' culture like black culture in seen as in America.

rubberdingyrapids
05-05-2015, 01:47 PM
Discarda as Elvis is perfect thanks for that


no worries ;)

but yeah @pandiculate, thats what i was getting at...

i think with grime, you have people like discarda and dog-z etc, and then you have the boxed lot, who fit a more familiar trope of white artists' takes on (older, even if it still relatively recent) black music, if not exactly.

Pandiculate
05-05-2015, 01:54 PM
no worries ;)

but yeah @pandiculate, thats what i was getting at...

i think with grime, you have people like discarda and dog-z etc, and then you have the boxed lot, who fit a more familiar trope of white artists' takes on (older, even if it still relatively recent) black music, if not exactly.

Sorry, kind of forgot where I was, had a few 'discussions' on reddit about why young Londoners 'talk black'

m99188868
06-05-2015, 10:09 AM
they are not 'one' culture

That's really important. When speaking of cultures, one tends almost automatically to deal in generalising terms, forgetting that there is a huge diversity within this so-called monolithic blocks.

rubberdingyrapids
06-05-2015, 10:17 AM
just to clarify, just cos i said discarda was like elvis, i didnt mean the elvis as 'black culture thief', i just meant the elvis who liked black music and had some real connection to it.

Pandiculate
06-05-2015, 03:20 PM
That's really important. When speaking of cultures, one tends almost automatically to deal in generalising terms, forgetting that there is a huge diversity within this so-called monolithic blocks.

Yeah, and I think it is difficult with American Black Culture being so prevalent worldwide and it being a construct uniting a large group who didn't know their real roots. Black people anywhere else don't really fit in that box, but it's hard not to fall in to that trap, especially for people who don't really meet many black people.

Leo
06-05-2015, 04:04 PM
kind of off-topic and also a generalization but..."black american/hiphop" culture really became the default global youth culture over the past few decades, didn't it? it gets adapted and assimilated a little differently around the world, but the essence of the look and attitude is embraced universally by kids in the europe, asia, latin america, etc.

i'm trying to remember if there even was an equivalent dominant global youth culture before hiphop.

Pandiculate
06-05-2015, 04:08 PM
kind of off-topic and also a generalization but..."black american/hiphop" culture really became the default global youth culture over the past few decades, didn't it? it gets adapted and assimilated a little differently around the world, but the essence of the look and attitude is embraced universally by kids in the europe, asia, latin america, etc.

i'm trying to remember if there even was an equivalent dominant global youth culture before hiphop.

It definitely feels like that somtimes, but living in Tokyo for a few years the Hip-Hop kids were definitely the misfit kids. And Hip-Hop clubs there are just embarrassing, synchronized dancing everywhere.

CrowleyHead
06-05-2015, 05:46 PM
The big problem is that culture that has been shipped and commodified is in a sense, a generalization that is a culture based on material goods and vague concepts "Only God Can Judge Me" becomes just reduced "Be Yourself", competition and the constriction of economic depravity becomes talking about "Haters" meaning someone who irritated you in the line for coffee, or whatever.

Someone already pointed out that there isn't a universal experience and that's true, but I do feel there's a problem in which kids who... aren't experienced emulate those who have experienced hardships as a sort of coping mechanism for how culture-less they feel. Almost a 'false valor' pursuit, which is fucked because the behavior they emulate... Sure you can romantacize it and recognize it, but it isn't the best way to live. Its a means to an end. And the internet helps because these kids who are mostly isolated by having an economic background which insulates them from hardship (and thank god for that), they can learn all the nitty gritty without getting their hands dirty.

So you end up with this:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/II4o4jvJYUQ?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Which is obviously the most overtly self-reflexive in its presentation, but at the same time gathers a larger amount of the middle class audience that could help boost a more authentic version like say...

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/V5iKxwPxd0I?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

This a big problem I have with Drake where he makes music that's ambiguously about content he definitively doesn't have to live, which embodies his work more and more with time, and a lot of people affiliated with Kanye. This poverty gap in who gets to sustain a career in rap is incredibly unhealthy and unrealistic.

And that's not even figuring in how the internet is causing a lot of voyeurism into regional behavior, and you see people copying things that are so vividly them trying to get internet attention rather than manifesting the normal ways. The concept of trending and the 'viral' 'internet sensation' is just too overwhelmingly simple for people.

Best take on it in a UK Perspective: <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/NhZCgeUQFgA?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Via Trilliam.

luka
04-06-2015, 11:46 AM
messi is just the latest in a line of luxury flair players with a poor work ethic. he will settle comfortably into his inevitable 'cult player' niche before long, most likely after the world cup. i would liken him to a le tissier or a ginola.

― aarrissi-a-roni, Wednesday, March 17, 2010 8:26 PM (2 years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

petergunn
08-06-2015, 05:18 AM
This a big problem I have with Drake where he makes music that's ambiguously about content he definitively doesn't have to live, which embodies his work more and more with time, and a lot of people affiliated with Kanye. This poverty gap in who gets to sustain a career in rap is incredibly unhealthy and unrealistic.


good point...

this is the best thread on dissensus....

discarda as elvis is brilliant until you realize elvis had talent....

but yes, the odd white man out in a black environment is a great musical trope... maybe discarda is ron bykowski from funkadelic...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8vBDET3kbI

CrowleyHead
08-06-2015, 01:27 PM
My fellow judend have a propensity for blending in and being the token.

Also, I think its just if you show you're trying to be for the scene, its good. Mike Dean is a white dude, and he's responsible for how many classics on Rap-A-Lot?

http://www.discogs.com/artist/174068-Mike-Dean-2?filter_anv=0&subtype=Production&type=Credits

rubberdingyrapids
09-06-2015, 10:57 AM
maybe discarda is ron bykowski from funkadelic...


or rod temperton in heatwave...

CrowleyHead
09-06-2015, 11:15 PM
or rod temperton in heatwave...

Let's not be too generous.

luka
20-07-2015, 10:19 AM
Ha, Afrobeats... heard a few times out this month. Latest was Friday, seeing a session bassist friend with an Indian drummer-on-a-beats-in-a-box and typical Cambo expat as singer-songwriter... was warned against it earlier by the bassist at a local beefhouse... called the singer-songwriter a cross between Cohen and the Crash Test Dummies. Went anyhow, thought it was alright, singer-songwriter English teacher nihilist dude apparently doubles as videographer, had koyaanisqatsi-style footage on the projector from Late 90s East Village lowlife... heroin addicts and WTC and all... guy was closer to an untalented Nick Cave, w/ East Village affections... whole time through it's Nigerians in the back playing pool flirting with Khmer whores and one-night-in-the-Penh scared Ozzie backpackers at the bar hugging their girls watching the Wimbledon semifinals live. Their LAST NOTE Davido gets pumped up on the speakers (note that Nigerians are barred from most bars here so they'll take it where they can get it), Mr English Teacher asides immediately to bassist friend that they get replaced by "techno shit".

Feel a bit bad for the guy, sure he's a musical hack but the footage was great, he succeeded in mooding his corner, so after my food-poisoned friend & Viet wife & kid leaves and my wife & I get bored I get fed up of waiting for him to stop talking to the drummer (giving up on my dreams of explaining Bhangra and Cave might not be the best fit) and head up to his booth, saying that yeah at times I clued into his act and considered it the shit... like Thurston Moore had a blues side-project (hey know your audience). "hey wow thanks!"... and hey is your footage on YouTube? "It's a long story... I'm in the middle of a conversation, can we talk in a bit?"

English teacher proceeds to the bar. I proceed to rock out to Davido the hardest in my life.

I wore a Phillies cap out that night. Learned the next night at Sharky's he was from Harrisburg PA. Might prefer no fans at all over the kinds of people he left back in PA on his way to the East Village, I dunno. I've got 100k views a day nowadays on YT, thought his video was the shit, wanted to explain how to get an audience bigger than one per week.

Anyway this is the kind of stuff I should post under a screenname, not for being Phnom Penh, but because I've been told my pithiness is legendary and should remain under wraps. Davido's been great this month tho. Won't share the other times.

― Adam J Duncan, Friday, 17 July 2015 11:32 (3 days ago) Permalink

luka
21-07-2015, 04:23 PM
https://twitter.com/jordansarge/status/621840788662689793

Corpsey
21-07-2015, 05:15 PM
Oh I wondered why I was following that guy. Has there been a reaction on ILX?

luka
21-07-2015, 05:45 PM
Yeah big kerfuffle about it. Seems a lot of top gawkers were posting there. Pretty funny.

luka
05-03-2016, 12:48 AM
actually, i warm my nacho chips up because we're a bit sensitive to the oils and salt they use

luka
05-03-2016, 12:52 AM
why do i buy trader joe's salsa? every time I do it, it is always so disappointing that I eat a tenth of it and then say, "why suffer through bad salsa?" and get good salsa at whole foods.
― sarahell, Wednesday, 17 February 2016 18:23 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

that said, the Indonesian salsa is actually quite good
― sarahell, Wednesday, 17 February 2016 18:25 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

their corn uhh salsa or whatever they call it is pretty good
the tomato-based salsa are all pretty meh as far as I've found
― μpright mammal (mh), Wednesday, 17 February 2016 18:31 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

The tomatillo is OK if you want mild.
― nickn, Wednesday, 17 February 2016 19:23 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

i like taking the red or green jarred salsa and blending it with loads of cilantro and many habaneros. they're both great bases, imo, but kinda weak by themselves
― Edgard Varese is god (of music anyways) (outdoor_miner), Wednesday, 17 February 2016 19:29 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

luka
05-03-2016, 12:53 AM
Neeks

luka
05-03-2016, 12:55 AM
Pizza Veggie Burgers were fantastic. We eat a lot of the Quinoa Cowboy Veggie Burgers, but I think Pizza Burgers is going to make it into the rotation.
― Jeff, Wednesday, 10 February 2016 14:18 (3 weeks ago) Permalink

luka
05-03-2016, 12:55 AM
"Jeff"

luka
05-03-2016, 01:04 AM
[FONT="Impact"]will ride for the chocolate covered peanut butter filled pretzels tho
― rip dom passantino 3/5/09 never forget (max), Wednesday, 11 March 2009 14:14 (6 years ago) Permalink/FONT]

luka
22-03-2016, 07:45 PM
Baja Fresh is incredibly fattening and caloric. I used to enjoy their burritos "enchilado style" until I looked up the calorie content/fat content on their website... the burritos themselves have about 1,000 calories.. and the "enchilado style" part (enchilada sauce, cheese, side of chips and cheese and all melted and gooey) ads AN ADDITIONAL 900 CALORIES. So the whole thing IS 1,900 CALORIES OMG WTF???? I never ate it again.

― Towelette Pettatucci (Homosexual II), Friday, 3 September 2004 19:06 (11 years ago) Permalink

Corpsey
23-03-2016, 09:31 AM
What dark rabbit hole have you ended up in?

luka
04-04-2016, 06:21 PM
Actually, would recommend a walk up Portobello Road north of Talbot Road (Rough Trade's 'original' store is on that corner) stopping for the following:
Clothes market beside Portobello Road in the shadow of the Westway bridge, combination of vintage and new designers (and a pretty good tights and socks stall). There's a great Malaysian restaurant called Makan there, which is inexpensive and has been there for ages.
Ignore the food trucks on your right and carry on up Portobello Road - it turns into cheaper old-clothes stalls and shops, and on the left is a massive old Spanish convent/school.
At the corner of Portobello Road and Golborne Road, there is a tapas restaurant called Galicia that's very reliable and good value. Grizzled old Spanish guys work there and it meets with the approval of my friend C's picky Spanish mum.
Turn right (east) into Golborne Road - antiques on the road and in shops, lots of cafés - Moroccan, Lebanese, one new and chi-chi Danish one. There are tons of chairs and tables around food trucks on the north side of the road; I call them Fake Morocco.
Stella McCartney's corporate HQ is on Golborne Road roughly opposite the Portuguese bakery/café Lisboa - there's nothing nicer than to sit at an outside table there or at Oporto opposite, drinking a galao and having a pasteis de nata in the sun.
That huge brutalist apartment building looming over the road is Trellick Tower, designed by Erno Goldfinger.
Just off Golborne Road by the Trellick Tower is a very expensive and fashiony vintage store, Rellik It's always worth a look.
― jedi slimane (suzy), Sunday, 3 April 2016 22:29 (Yesterday) Permalink

luka
04-04-2016, 06:22 PM
If you're oriented east, try the Ace Hotel in Shoreditch - very chichi hipster, but don't hold that against it. I like Hoi Polloi, the restaurant in it.
The Zetter and the Rosewood hotels are central - the former is modern, the latter is in an ornate, refurbished old insurance HQ (you'll never believe insurers could be that baroque) with about five good restaurants inside, and they have a hotel dog you can borrow (I've met this golden lab being taken for runs in Lincoln's Inn Fields right behind the hotel).
Try the Mr and Mrs Smith group of hotels for cozy nightcap style accomodation in various neighbourhoods, and make sure you eat at St John.
― jedi slimane (suzy), Sunday, 3 April 2016 23:02 (Yesterday) Permalink

luka
05-04-2016, 02:29 PM
I'd get the hotel to reserve/do the admin for any nice restaurant that takes a credit card number when people book.
― jedi slimane (suzy), Monday, 4 April 2016 23:55 (Yesterday) Permalink

UUuuuuuugh I so don't want to play the reservations game, but I will if I have to.
OK so current list of restaurant contenders is: St John, Barrafina (no reservations, so we'll try for a walk in), Clove Club, Anchor and Hope, Ledbury, Dinner, Petrus, Ducasse, The Square, Fera, Quality Chop House, Palomar, Honey and Co. Plus I gotta fit in an Indian meal--chowhound mentions Dishroom, Trishna, Gykhana--any thoughts?
Too many restaurants, not enough days :(
xpost Thank you, Suzy. I'll try to narrow down to two "blow-out" meals and ask for reservation help.
― mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Monday, 4 April 2016 23:57 (Yesterday) Permalink

Barrafina rewards those who queue at around noon - there are obnoxious execs that send their PAs down to save them a place, so the key is to beat them to the front.
― jedi slimane (suzy), Tuesday, 5 April 2016 00:08 (12 hours ago) Permalink

Borough Market is a bit crazed - would avoid on weekends as in firm Not Fun territory but weekdays are ok. London is generally a bit shit with food markets as destinations like in Montreal or Paris or whatnot, but they're worth a visit if you're nearby. (Personally I prefer wandering round Selfridge's market or the mahoosive Whole Foods in Kensington but, er, they're not holiday winners.)
Bars - I have hearing damage and like quiet spots - the Connaught and Langham are both have great cocktail menus. I love Duke's in St James which is vv old school (Ian Fleming's old bar) but it's intimate, the staff are friendly, and there's usually lots of interesting non-scumbag posh people to eavesdrop on. I also like Heights in Oxford Circus, which is a merely average bar but has a superb views over London and the new BBC building, especially in the loos. If you can stand it, the Centerpoint bar near your hotel also has an excellent London view, but don't stay for long (and you need to book in advance).
― Chuck_Tatum, Tuesday, 5 April 2016 00:12 (12 hours ago) Permalink

Duke's sounds like my kind of place, for sure.
― mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Tuesday, 5 April 2016 00:15 (12 hours ago) Permalink

Any superb coffee near Rosewood? I'm going to need it after all these cocktails.
― mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Tuesday, 5 April 2016 00:16 (12 hours ago) Permalink

The Espresso Room is my local, and is still pretty good even though the owner changed last year. I also go to Fleet River Bakery which is about 100m from the Rosewood (and they do nice coffee in the Holborn Delicatessen onsite).
― jedi slimane (suzy), Tuesday, 5 April 2016 00:25 (12 hours ago) Permalink

I probably wouldn't make Dishoom a priority, especially as you can't book. I hear very good things about Gymkhana and Trishna but they are edging towards one off blowout territory.
I would also avoid anything with a no-bookings policy, which rules out Dishoom. This does include the Anchor and Hope BUT that is basically a pub and it's easy enough to drink in relative comfort if there isn't a table. (NB I love the Anchor and Hope).
Booking most of the other places online should be pretty straightforward.
― Matt DC, Tuesday, 5 April 2016 08:13 (4 hours ago) Permalink

Maybe don't go to Borough Market, or if you do, prioritise going to Maltby Street and/or Druid Street market first. Better food. Borough has more of the quality of an event but the cooking at the food stalls is p shit.
I wouldn't avoid anything with a no-bookings policy - not least Barrafina or Anchor and Hope, which are pretty easy to get into. And make it easy to wait as you say. The no-bookings hell is more like burger restaurant du jour.
The queue in Barrafina is like "grand I'll have a glass of wine", unless it's manic, which it doesn't tend to be - the Drury Lane one is p easy to get into anytime at lunch, and before 1930 or so on weekdays. Even after that it's not bad. Barrafina is actually really nice for a weekend lunch imo - it has a very bright and relaxed feeling.
I wouldn't specifically go to that area to go to Anchor and Hope but given it's beside the Young Vic which was my theatre recommendation, then I probably would.
― japanese mage (LocalGarda), Tuesday, 5 April 2016 09:16 (3 hours ago) Permalink

If you do end up at Maltby Street, there are a few good restaurants there. A small St John, a tapas bar called Tozino, and a wine bar called 40 Maltby Street. There are also many many breweries around that area which open on a Saturday, if either of you are into beer. If you only tried one, I'd go to the Kernel. They get a bit overcrowded but it can be a fun thing to do.
― japanese mage (LocalGarda), Tuesday, 5 April 2016 09:18 (3 hours ago) Permalink

Personally I prefer wandering round Selfridge's market or the mahoosive Whole Foods in Kensington but, er, they're not holiday winners.)

lol I was actually going to say maybe go to Selfridges, I mean if you're on the kind of holiday where shopping might appeal. Also Liberty. Beautiful building and a nice shop.
― japanese mage (LocalGarda), Tuesday, 5 April 2016 09:21 (3 hours ago) Permalink

I wouldn't specifically go to that area to go to Anchor and Hope but given it's beside the Young Vic which was my theatre recommendation, then I probably would.

Or if they're on the South Bank, from which it's a short walk, especially given most South Bank food options are best avoided.
It should be pointed out that if you're in Holborn you're in really excellent walking territory, right between the City and the West End, with Bloomsbury to the north and the aforementioned walk down to the river southwards. In fact you're really well placed for a lot of zone one stuff. Bloomsbury especially can be quite peaceful and worth a wander round if things are getting hectic.
― Matt DC, Tuesday, 5 April 2016 09:30 (3 hours ago) Permalink

yeah otm. you can walk everywhere from there. another recommendation - i'd probably go to the delaunay or its small adjoining cafe - it's very old school, viennese themed but essentially quite british, brilliant service. particularly good for breakfast.
― japanese mage (LocalGarda), Tuesday, 5 April 2016 09:47 (3 hours ago) Permalink

CrowleyHead
05-04-2016, 07:11 PM
Oh god, I think I recognize one of these posters from twitter. Its like discovering your neighbor who you always kind of thought was rude is actually a guy who sets housepets on fire.

Benny B
05-04-2016, 09:56 PM
I haven't posted in this thread before but what can you say about grime unless you actually ARE overintellectualizing it?

Here's a choon! ITS ALOT! or That's BIG! are about all I can say about the shit I listen to. I just really respond favorably to the stuff I like but not really to say anything much about.

I like grime. There is a lot of great underground shit in myspace. That is mainly the stuff I am listening to.

If I were to really indulge myself and attempt to explain it, I would liken it to the concept of terroir in wine and the issue of whether one would be inclined to drink the wine, appreciating it fully, or choose to blather on about tannins and licorice notes or something. I mean, I could tell you some good wines to go out and get or some nice MCs to check out but I usually only do that if someone asks me.

Also, it seems to me that nobody really big in grime wants to get hit with that tag (what they really want to do is direct). Fear of the conclusive death of "Grime" as such is palpable to me amongst them and no one wants to be left behind is my take on that part. I haven't made a systematic search of all the grime posts here but it seems like people are usually talking about the big names whereas I think the real action is just in some bedroom on a council estate and thus in myspace.

I'd like to see more Grime posts. I'm always lookin to check out the MC du jour, shatap.

― Saxby D. Elder, viernes 7 de diciembre de 2007 18:42 (8 years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

with your firm grasp of the argot, you must be a native east londoner.

― That one guy that hit it and quit it, miércoles 12 de diciembre de 2007 19:02 (8 years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

close, southside Chicago! BRAP!!

― Saxby D. Elder, miércoles 12 de diciembre de 2007 19:32 (8 years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

luka
05-04-2016, 10:16 PM
Lol!

Corpsey
27-04-2016, 01:30 PM
Just signed up to ILM so I could stalk Tim F using the search function but it doesn't seem to work very well. Is there a 'see all posts by' function that I've missed?

If Tim happens to read this: please don't be disturbed, I just like reading your writing, and I want to take over your body by murdering you. :)

luka
08-09-2016, 07:48 AM
I know sweet f*** all about Hip Hop. I've cultivated a dislike for it over the years: it's all about swinging your dick/your gun/your bling. It's about bitches and hos. It's violent and misogynist. The artists are generally enormously egotistical jerks.
Here's what I've liked so far: The Streets 'A Grand Don't Come for Free' and MIA's Kala.
― Peter "One Dart" Manley (The stickman from the hilarious 'xkcd' comics), Tuesday, 2 December 2008 21:18 (seven years ago) Permalink

Corpsey
08-09-2016, 09:35 AM
I know sweet f*** all about Hip Hop. I've cultivated a dislike for it over the years: it's all about swinging your dick/your gun/your bling. It's about bitches and hos. It's violent and misogynist. The artists are generally enormously egotistical jerks.
Here's what I've liked so far: The Streets 'A Grand Don't Come for Free' and MIA's Kala.
― Peter "One Dart" Manley (The stickman from the hilarious 'xkcd' comics), Tuesday, 2 December 2008 21:18 (seven years ago) Permalink

This is what happens when you let morality mess with your music.

luka
07-11-2016, 01:12 PM
How have I been shown my claims don't work? Saying he uses melodies that remind me mainly of 90s grunge hasn't been "disproven" because you said you listened to one song and thought it reminded you of beach house.

Dropping a bunch of musical terms that btw I am actually familiar with--I studied jazz and am very familiar w the Dorian and phyrgian modes & what they mean harmonically is not some decisive death blow to an argument about an artist you've given a cursory skim. I haven't addressed your specific claims mainly bc you kept talking about "harmonies" when I was talking about a vocalist's *melodic* sensibilities? One who doesn't often harmonize

― Listen to my homeboy Fantano (D-40), Monday, 7 November 2016 00:43 (twelve hours ago) Permalink

Being that he is basing his music around loops like most rap artists of course the songs don't have the underlying harmonic structure of grunge but then that was never a claim I made

― Listen to my homeboy Fantano (D-40), Monday, 7 November 2016 00:56 (twelve hours ago) Permalink

i did not study jazz and i am not familiar with phyrgian modes but still i am confident that lil peep is not good

― based grandpa (noz), Monday, 7 November 2016 00:57 (twelve hours ago) Permalink

"I studied jazz and this, like everything I see and hear, sounds like Chief Keef"

― Whiney G. Weingarten, Monday, 7 November 2016 00:58 (twelve hours ago) Permalink

Chris you haven't actually been in touch with what's going on in rap since the Clinton administration

― Listen to my homeboy Fantano (D-40), Monday, 7 November 2016 01:07 (eleven hours ago) Permalink

But I'm stoked to figure out what new stone you can possibly overturn to say something new about run the jewels next time though

― Listen to my homeboy Fantano (D-40), Monday, 7 November 2016 01:09 (eleven hours ago) Permalink

At least this time noz can't delete evidence of being wrong like he did w his blogs

― Listen to my homeboy Fantano (D-40), Monday, 7 November 2016 01:10 (eleven hours ago) Permalink

david if you deleted your blogs would anyone notice

― based grandpa (noz), Monday, 7 November 2016 01:19 (eleven hours ago) Permalink

CrowleyHead
07-11-2016, 01:38 PM
150

These guys are so adorable.

luka
07-11-2016, 02:04 PM
I studied jazz and am very familiar w the Dorian and phyrgian modes

:cool:

Corpsey
27-01-2017, 01:22 PM
Does this fit?


"We The People" is too fucking low and all this "it is clearly an inferior track on the album" nonsense really shows how one's privilege can color the reception of a message

― ornate orchestral arrangements (DJP), Thursday, 26 January 2017 19:10 (two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink



I thought it was shit cos of the Intergalactic Planetary Intergalactic filter on his voice but maybe that was the heinous martorialist twisting my melon again.

luka
27-01-2017, 01:40 PM
the Intergalactic Planetary Intergalactic filter on his voice

lol

Corpsey
27-01-2017, 01:57 PM
literally stole that observation from martorialracist

luka
15-05-2017, 04:58 PM
Mary J. Blige: Classic or Dud?


She's a diva, no question. "Real Love" is a CLASSIC song. She's gotten better as a singer, and she was pretty good to begin with. What I've heard, I've liked - even if the song itself ain't so great, that voice is like buttah on a hot biscuit. And the new single ("Family Affair") is superb - ah, that voice...
But what's up with the new video and her "dancing"? Divas shouldn't dance - they should preen and pose, wearing big furs and rings and stuff. And if a diva is going to dance, they should DANCE - none of that modified hokey-pokey stuff. It's like a new version of the Seinfeld dance - not lookin' too good.

So, where should I go? What should I do?

― David Raposa, Thursday, 30 August 2001 00:00 (fifteen years ago) Permalink

What you should do is start listening to Aretha's 60's Atlantic stuff. Like, immediately.
― Sean, Thursday, 30 August 2001 00:00 (fifteen years ago) Permalink

precisiongrind
25-05-2017, 08:00 PM
never could understand the allure of analyzing the non-music boards of ILX on dissensus was, but it looks like it kept going after I avoided reading this thread for a couple years?

hopefully someone in the US found our musings on grocery store salsas useful

luka
28-06-2017, 11:32 AM
last night at a hipster indie party the dj put on "Crunk Muzik" and i went buckwild, and the crowd did also, but were a little confused. my wife said to me, "how do i even dance to this?!" and then she just realized you need to get buckwild and started bouncing to it!

trilliam
17-08-2017, 01:01 PM
This is what happens when you let morality mess with your music.

yes...morality

luka
22-10-2017, 09:17 PM
the newer, larger quiche is better than the old quiches

― you are juror number 144 and we will excuse you (Sufjan Grafton), Tuesday, 17 October 2017 18:03 (five days ago) Permalink

whoa the frozen bibimbap bowl is GREAT!!

― the masseduction of lauryn hill (Stevie D(eux)), Thursday, 19 October 2017 14:30 (three days ago) Permalink

luka
22-10-2017, 09:21 PM
this is such a great thread. really urge everyone to go back to the very first page and read it from the very start.