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luka
15-12-2015, 02:05 PM
Ignore me if we done this before but I want to nominate Pauls Boutique as a record with a disasterous cultural influence and if I think of anything else I'll share it with you

rubberdingyrapids
15-12-2015, 02:25 PM
jay-z

Mr. Tea
15-12-2015, 03:42 PM
Rage Against the Machine Bassist: 'I Apologize for Limp Bizkit' (http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/rage-against-the-machine-bassist-i-apologize-for-limp-bizkit-20150929)

trza
15-12-2015, 03:45 PM
sublime? early dubstep?

Slothrop
15-12-2015, 04:00 PM
Pulp Fiction?

Benny B
15-12-2015, 04:33 PM
I like all of these bands to varying degrees but cant think of anything good to come out of

The smiths
Aphex twin
Incredible string band
Nirvana
The fall
Joy division (aside from new order and the cure maybe)
Nick cave
Will oldham
Jesús and Mary chain

Benny B
15-12-2015, 04:36 PM
If i add oasis and the stone roses might just as well say all the big Manchester groups

Benny B
15-12-2015, 05:10 PM
Ignore me if we done this before but I want to nominate Pauls Boutique

and, by extension I suppose, steinski

baboon2004
15-12-2015, 07:50 PM
why has paul's boutique been particularly disastrous as an influence?

eminem's career has surely inspired more bad music than almost any other artist

nomos
15-12-2015, 07:59 PM
The Beasties video for 'Sabotage' was an early spark for that ironic-cheese, so-bad-it's-good, look-at-my-stupid-fucking-moustache, i'm-afraid-of-genuine-sentiment-so-i'll-just-joke-dance-to-this-"80s"-tune horseshit that plagued most of the 00s.

trza
15-12-2015, 08:06 PM
the dust brothers and their sample based compositions? gave birth to a generation of bad trip hop and underground hip hop? it was bad but not as bad as some other stuff. most probably would have happened without pauls boutique.

baboon2004
15-12-2015, 08:18 PM
The Beasties video for 'Sabotage' was an early spark for that ironic-cheese, so-bad-it's-good, look-at-my-stupid-fucking-moustache, i'm-afraid-of-genuine-sentiment-so-i'll-just-joke-dance-to-this-"80s"-tune horseshit that plagued most of the 00s.

true, much as i love the original song. but can't blame the BBs alone for the general direction of western popular culture.

Yeah, maybe PB inspired some bad trip hop and underground hip hop...Blue Lines (again much as I like the original record) may be one of the worst influences ever in a similarish vein

trza
15-12-2015, 08:25 PM
so pauls boutique and blue lines unleashed the hordes of bad music like the caspa and early skrillex work of 2009?

baboon2004
15-12-2015, 08:33 PM
what's mid-period skrillex? i wasn't aware he had a career arc (genuine question)

CrowleyHead
16-12-2015, 01:13 AM
Only Built 4 Cuban Linx taught NYC rappers to actually position themselves as drug dealers thereby utterly killing the movement the Native Tongues fought for, turned Nas into a sycophant and a trend chaser, and by the merits of its strength as an album made all those Wu-Tang records who came before and after which didn't adhere to its aesthetic seem 'goofy' in comparison.

That'd be my best rejoinder to Luka.

Corpsey
16-12-2015, 09:05 AM
But, by extension, it also gave birth to Rick Ross, who luka and I revere.

I am of the opinion that even 'bad' influences in music can be good influences over a long enough period. Either through people reacting against them or taking them on and running with them.

One tune I'd cite as a bad influence, though, is 'Rubber Chicken' by Caspa. (Please ignore the following, luka, as you consider all dubstep a priori shite.) At the time we - that is, me and my loefah/skream/dmz venerating mates - all loved it, PARTICULARLY the 'mad as a brush' second drop where the wobbles go so mad it feels like the tempo is warping. But I feel like this tune, even more perhaps than Coki's tunes, opened the door for dubstep to become DEFINED by wobbles, which meant that by 2009/10 you had DJs playing wobbler after wobbler after wobbler. Although really it only became SUPER offensive post 'Spongebob' (although I still think Coki is a genius, many of those gnarly industrial shit-fits included).

woops
16-12-2015, 01:17 PM
The fall

Pavement are confirmed Fall plagiarists, so no

CrowleyHead
16-12-2015, 03:32 PM
But, by extension, it also gave birth to Rick Ross, who luka and I revere.

No, Rozay is a major label attempt to duplicate the success of Jeezy. Rapping about cocaine outside of NYC was done long before then, Ice-T and etc. Rick Ross was an obvious attempt to duplicate trap rap by a journeyman industry professional. TBF, Jeezy had originally been a Trick Daddy duplicate before he found his voice which was an amalgamation of stuff TI and Gucci were already doing. Also Rick Ross is still viewed as a southern rapper even if we know he's not all that southern and he's remodeled himself into an East Coast artist after hitting the right amount of Southern Rap cred points.

Corpsey
16-12-2015, 03:58 PM
I meant more his whole mafioso schtick, which is what I assume you meant by OB4CL popularising drug dealing, cos as you say rappers as drug dealers was happening before that.

Edit: oh are you talking about NY specifically?

CrowleyHead
17-12-2015, 03:12 AM
I meant more his whole mafioso schtick, which is what I assume you meant by OB4CL popularising drug dealing, cos as you say rappers as drug dealers was happening before that.

Edit: oh are you talking about NY specifically?

Yeah, and Mafioso/Kingpin roles existed long before Cuban Linx for rappers, that's just 90s NYC critical centricism rewriting history. Shit, Rakim dressed as a fake Mafia don in "Follow The Leader"'s music video...

What Cuban Linx provides is the idea that every rapper within the East Coast should be the kingpin and not the 'thug'. Biggie was probably hinting at that progression already, but it furthers the antagonism against the positivism of post-Native Tongues rap as I'd mentioned in the big 90s rap thread way back when. It allows the 90s NYC scene to flourish again on a commercial pop level but would ultimately lose a lot of critical favor as more often non-genre critics would flock to left-field stuff because it was more adult-oriented or introspective. Rock critics who had turned to West Coast gangster rap for its extremities wouldn't be as impressed by that from NYC because instead it was made for a grandiose sense of self-reward and lacked the narrative-obsessions of West Coast; and usually musically very disco-oriented which reminded them of why they'd rejected rap in the first place.

I also have a huge argument that Illmatic undid the fabric of the rap industry in a powerfully negative way by way of its number of production contributions. A lot of these albums that are canonical classics (which I do actually like a lot) have hugely bad influence in the long run.

sadmanbarty
17-12-2015, 10:30 AM
UK Funky seems to be the moment in which UK dance music stopped outright innovating and started mildly tweaking previously established genres.

1990-95 produced bleep, hardcore and jungle

2000-05 produced garage rap, dubstep, grime and bassline

2010-15 produced UK Bass, Jackin and Deep Tech

Corpsey
17-12-2015, 10:33 AM
Tim F to thread.

Benny B
17-12-2015, 11:34 AM
UK Funky seems to be the moment in which UK dance music stopped outright innovating and started mildly tweaking previously established genres.



tell me more...

*pulls up a chair*

sadmanbarty
17-12-2015, 12:32 PM
tell me more...

*pulls up a chair*

Name some tracks that you consider display the innovative qualities of Funky.

Benny B
17-12-2015, 02:16 PM
Name some tracks that you consider display the innovative qualities of Funky.


you may disagree, but I found plenty of shock-of-the new thrills in ill blu, funkystepz, fuzzy logik, early roska, geeneus, lil silva to name the most obvious. I could post tons of youtubes but its probably a waste of time. OTTOMH: yellowtail, mr bean, seasons, feeline, different lextrix, inflation, house girls, reign, quicktime, funky sound etc etc etc. (bongo jam even! fuck it, especially bongo jam!) all these marked a big break from what had gone before, and came in quick succession after the initial incubative period of playing mainly US stuff. you cant just reduce it to 'mild tweaking'.

you could point to all the obvious direct influences but, if you took, i dunno, MAW for example; its easy to find tons of examples that sounding NOTHING like that type of house. and the same goes for pointing to certain grime or garage or tribal or afro or soca tracks to try and deny uk funky's 'innovatative qualities'. you could play these sort of games with jungle too (as in the recent woebot 'reggae was just a flava' scandal), or indeed any genre you care to name.

or you might say it was closest in vibe to ukg (house/ dancehall/ rnb base, mcs as hosts, width and variety, plenty of vocals blah blah blah) but clearly built on very different rhythms to garage. it pretty rarely sounded much like 2step really. grime, certainly but... (see prev. paragraph)

its had a big hand in paving the way for uk afrobeats, which is bubbling up nicely again right now (even influenced og azonto boom in ghana/naija to some extent) and starting to bear juicier fruit. ive already lolled at this years uk funky veterans 'revival', but when you've got someone as hot as J Hus saying he's on a mission to bring it back, you start to take notice.

and if you're gonna say bassline you have to say funky really, going by (what i think) is your logic.

sadmanbarty
17-12-2015, 03:21 PM
Like you say, it’s one of those subjective things, so we won’t be able to convince each other.

The tracks you name, while all great, to me feel like direct composites of their influences. That being said, “mildly tweaking” was a stupid rhetorical flourish and definitely an exaggeration.

Agree with the afrobeats connection.

Regardless of whether Funky itself was innovative, I think that fact it reconnected ravers to proper house has had an overwhelmingly bad legacy for UK music.

I can definitely see what you mean about Bassline, but I think it took the dred/warp bass to such an extreme so as to be innovative. The central, rhythmic use of resonant filters and whatnot on bass has become one of the hallmarks of 21st century music so far.

Corpsey
17-12-2015, 09:45 PM
Personally I've enjoyed parts of house's mainstream renaissance although I've always had problems with the 4x4 drums.

One thing you can't underestimate about funky was the change in mood it brought about. Although there was exuberant music around, funky felt like a real relief after the darkness and self-seriousness of dubstep. Even when it went wobbly, there was something more grinding than ebullient about it.

benjybars
18-12-2015, 07:45 AM
One tune I'd cite as a bad influence, though, is 'Rubber Chicken' by Caspa. (Please ignore the following, luka, as you consider all dubstep a priori shite.) At the time we - that is, me and my loefah/skream/dmz venerating mates - all loved it, PARTICULARLY the 'mad as a brush' second drop where the wobbles go so mad it feels like the tempo is warping. But I feel like this tune, even more perhaps than Coki's tunes, opened the door for dubstep to become DEFINED by wobbles, which meant that by 2009/10 you had DJs playing wobbler after wobbler after wobbler. Although really it only became SUPER offensive post 'Spongebob' (although I still think Coki is a genius, many of those gnarly industrial shit-fits included).


As someone who was equally obsessed with DMZ etc at this time, I 100% agree with this.

In fact, I wrote something pretty similar for my Roots of Caspa mix:

"Mix of old Caspa tracks from 2006-2010. Along with Rusko, Caspa is probably seen as the main cause of dubstep's rapid descent into obnoxious noisy drivel. And, to be fair, they were clearly both pretty happy to take the money and run. Still, a lot of Caspa's early stuff is just sick. Proper ravey and mental. Remember seeing him play the opening set at FWD in 2006 when there were about 30 people there and Rusko was jumping about like a nutter. Anyway yeah, while he (and his label Dub Police) undoubtedly helped dubstep become a load of boring nonsense, no-one can test these early tracks. Also, Velvet Rooms is absolutely wicked! He should've made more 2step garage.."

sadmanbarty
18-12-2015, 09:58 AM
The reggae revival that started in the 90's and has been going on ever since. Its bad influence is twofold 1) almost every dancehall album needs a token reggae track and 2) top artists like Sizzla, Capleton and Buju put most of there effort into one-drop tracks, when actually their best music is dancehall.

Slothrop
18-12-2015, 10:15 AM
"Mix of old Caspa tracks from 2006-2010. Along with Rusko, Caspa is probably seen as the main cause of dubstep's rapid descent into obnoxious noisy drivel. And, to be fair, they were clearly both pretty happy to take the money and run. Still, a lot of Caspa's early stuff is just sick. Proper ravey and mental. Remember seeing him play the opening set at FWD in 2006 when there were about 30 people there and Rusko was jumping about like a nutter. Anyway yeah, while he (and his label Dub Police) undoubtedly helped dubstep become a load of boring nonsense, no-one can test these early tracks. Also, Velvet Rooms is absolutely wicked! He should've made more 2step garage.."

Isn't this a classic case of an something that works well as long as it's in tension with an opposing force - ie in dubstep, the meditative, pseudo-spiritual side of things and / or the garagey bump n flex - but becomes boring and one-dimensional once people focus in on it to the exclusion of anything else?

droid
18-12-2015, 10:29 AM
The reggae revival that started in the 90's and has been going on ever since. Its bad influence is twofold 1) almost every dancehall album needs a token reggae track and 2) top artists like Sizzla, Capleton and Buju put most of there effort into one-drop tracks, when actually their best music is dancehall.

If you want to make that argument its Drop Leaf and the One Drop Revival from '05 on that should be the target.

Reggae never really went away after all. Some of the best roots tunes came out in the digital era, Digital B was on top of things from the late 80's. It only slipped out of view as a significant force in the late 90's.

+ Chronixx is the best thing to come out of Jamaica in years.

Corpsey
18-12-2015, 10:35 AM
Haven't kept up with dancehall/reggae in a long time and was never an aficionado particularly but I always liked Buju and Sizzla's reggae songs. ''Solid as a Rock'' etc...

re wobbles, Slothrop is right. It was the ubiquity of it that galled. It was arguably good to have some subversive, cheeky stuff chucked into the midst of the sometimes rather po-faced ''meditate on bass'' stuff like a hand-grenade stuffed with silly string, but when it was allll night it was just grinding, in the same way that clownstep DNB is... The thing about it was that it was TOO effective, it was like the crack cocaine of dubstep. And despite the stereotypes, when I first started going to dubstep nights in 2006/7 it wasn't all moody men shuffling about, it was a lot of people going mad. And that was actually one of its charms, the shift from a Mala tune, say, to a Skream tune like ''Rottan'', was completely natural.

Also wobblers just became so formulaic. I remember seeing Kode9 b2b with Plastician at DMZ. All the tunes Kode played were different from each other, you didn't know what to expect, and every tune Plastician played was exactly the same structure and sounds.

Funky was a relief from that as much as the more sombre stuff (which by that time had somewhat died off anyway) - it was fun, it was funky, it was celebratory...

mistersloane
21-12-2015, 07:41 AM
Nothing good has ever come from anyone listening to King Crimson. So, I vote for "Court of the Crimson King", and its hideous progeny.

trza
21-12-2015, 03:11 PM
daft punk and their tour with the robot masks and the obscenely large lcd graphics was a big influence on deadmau5 and the rest of the edm scene that followed. when they promoted their last album they claimed they were unaware of the edm scene and thought it was just a guy named dj edm but its really their baby from their tour so many years ago.