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Corpsey
04-02-2016, 11:43 AM
I've been listening to Soundbombing 1 and 2, Superrappin' and Lyricist Lounge over the last few days and rediscovering the modest pleasures that attend late 90's underground rap music.

Of course, you get some complete no hopers, some wild eccentrics who veer all over the place, a general lack of ambition to rock any but the most retrograde dancefloors, and half the songs (if not more) are about how other MCs aren't as good as the MC currently rapping, and built on those generic ''i've got ambition to make the right decisions and my mission is to die spitting not die in prison etc.'' constructions... BUT

Loads of great stuff too. And I appreciate the down-to-earth quality of it. It's quite rare for any of these rappers to claim to be Pablo Escobar. Also, the amateurishness of some of it feels quite liberating. There was that DIY aspect to it, the idea of cyphering on street corners etc.

Corpsey
04-02-2016, 11:45 AM
Doubtless many of you will think 'oh, not ANOTHER thread about rap music!'

Make your own threads, sucka. :p

luka
04-02-2016, 11:47 AM
What's the stuff you like? How about a 10-15 song list in reciprocation for yesterday's UK r&b?

luka
04-02-2016, 11:48 AM
The stuff I remember enjoying was stuff from people who predated that scene but we're drawn into it eg monch, kool Keith etc

Corpsey
04-02-2016, 11:49 AM
Let me work on that.

One surprising thing for me is how much I enjoy Mos Def's music from that era. I've grown used to thinking he's a dweeb.

luka
04-02-2016, 11:50 AM
And also 7 eyes 7 horns, I love that as much as anything from the era
https://youtu.be/JHd7UNVnSsI

tried by 12, um....

At the risk of bringing the wrath of Crowley down upon us I quite liked early mos too

Corpsey
04-02-2016, 11:52 AM
The stuff I remember enjoying was stuff from people who predated that scene but we're drawn into it eg monch, kool Keith etc

Yeah - I mean, there was probably the same lack of quality control going into that scene as there is alleged to be nowadays with trap/mixtape rappers. Whereas artists like Kool G Rap and Monch were the products of a really competitive scene.

Real weirdos with borderline un-listenable styles like Thirstin Howl III were allowed in purely on the basis of being weird. And I actually quite like that. Also was surprised by how much I enjoy Company Flow's contribtuion to Soundbombing 2. El-P has absolutely no finesse as a rapper and even that I find perversely admirable.

Sir Menelik is a good example of a weirdo who was actually good. Remember 'So Intelligent' off Soundbombing? Him and Kool Keith rapping complete gibberish. Good stuff.

Corpsey
04-02-2016, 11:57 AM
Great minds! (Or maybe we've been over this before and I've forgotten)

luka
04-02-2016, 12:00 PM
Probably done it last week but that's OK I've forgotten it. Roc marciano, ka and Griselda records keep a certain strain of this stuff alive although I don't find any of them all that compelling

Corpsey
04-02-2016, 12:05 PM
I don't know that Roc Marciano has made a completely solid album but I absolutely love him at what I consider to be his best. Dr Yen Lo album is great, also.

I've got a nostalgic itch for New York rap, tbh. Fab's Friday Night Freestyles from last year briefly filled the hole blown in it by the rise of the South.

Actually I'd like to read Crowley's take on why NY rap went into decline.

luka
04-02-2016, 12:15 PM
I classify it as mannerism in an art history sense

(it being roc, ka, Griselda etc)

Corpsey
04-02-2016, 12:27 PM
Would mannerism not suggest a sort of duplication?

I think what Ka/Roc Marci are doing is distinct from 90's rap in terms of its production, its tone and mood, although obviously closely related.

luka
04-02-2016, 12:36 PM
No if it was duplication it wouldn't need a separate name it would be a continuation of the high renaissance house style!

luka
04-02-2016, 12:40 PM
Like, I like this, it sounds good to me but the video is a good illustration of what I mean. There's some really nice compositions in there. Its very well shot but it's not real life is it
https://youtu.be/eYLfbcHhfKM

luka
04-02-2016, 12:43 PM
Like mobb deep is high renaissance this is mannerism. Aesthetically accomplished but without cultural vitality

Corpsey
04-02-2016, 12:55 PM
I find this art history/rap history idea fascianting and I want to see it more fully explored in a book. You did the Spotify list now write me a book.

I see what you're getting at. ROC Marciano to me is like Kool G Raps flow slowed down and then mixed with a sort of It Was Written era obsession with designer clothes, yachts, Mafiosi, etc. All over beats that obviously evoke the Wu Tang.

Leaving aside all these influences though I just think his style is very enjoyable to listen to on headphones on the train. He's weaving these images together with rhyme patterns, and the images are often memorable and unexpected like talking about "three drops of olive oil in the wok".

But yes this is what underground hip hop is, in a way, this refusal or inability to tap into popular taste, and instead to be deliberately esoteric and introverted

Corpsey
04-02-2016, 12:56 PM
What's Young Thug, e.g., Pop Art?

Corpsey
04-02-2016, 01:02 PM
Did technology kill off NY hip hop? Not only the legal problems with sample clearance but also the rise of soft synth software making it easy to make electronic beats and taking all the grit out of sample beats?

I'm probably talking bollocks. But there's something over-smooth about the premier-a-like stuff I've heard in recent years (including Premier's).

But as you might say, the cultural vitality went into trap production. It's hard to see that ending atm but it will definitely decline at some point.

rubberdingyrapids
04-02-2016, 01:10 PM
Like mobb deep is high renaissance this is mannerism. Aesthetically accomplished but without cultural vitality


thats a good description. explains why i admire roc marci and these guys but cant really engage with it. it sounds hermetically sealed, vaccum bag rap, disinterested in anything that might contaminate its purity (also seems like a sort of high minded take on raekwon, kool g rap etc).

ive not heard old rawkus in a long time but i was a total devotee. i knew i didnt like it as much as what was around just a few years earlier (didnt know why though), but i bought into the whole 'real hip hop' thing. i dont think the original late 90s artists thought they were being arty or anti-populist, they (and their fans) honestly thought they were carrying the torch and making hip hop how you were supposed to make it, and it was puffy and everyone else who were bastardising it. i liked a lot of the plain underground stuff, rather than the indie stuff, people like street smartz, godfather don, thirstin howl, scaramanga, el-p (fandam is one of the best things to ever come out of new york, its better than the cold vein IMO), etc. have a soft spot for ra the rugged man, and non phixion and necro (up to a point).

Corpsey
04-02-2016, 03:07 PM
Again I appreciate your POV but I think it's something of a mistake to characterise ka/rocmarci as 'high minded'. I think it's a question of atmospherics rather than intelligence. As for 'purity', a lot of the samples Marciano uses, for example, are hardly the type you'd hear on a Mobb Deep song, e.g.

I do think your description of vaccum-packed rap is apt, but I see that as a strength in the music, really - it seals you into its own world.

I guess what makes it seem austere is the lack of emotion in either rappers voice. It's all flat-toned, poker-faced, ice-cold. Although actually that DOES make me think of Mobb Deep. On the face of it its joyless. The joy in it comes from the exhilaration you feel (and which they must feel, one assumes) at the intricacy of the rhyme schemes.

luka
04-02-2016, 03:19 PM
Cmon the voices are mobb to the point of pastiche. The entire atmosphere is mobb pastiche. There's very little wu in there to my mind. Rae lyrically but the blueprint is infamous

luka
04-02-2016, 03:20 PM
Hermetically sealed/vacuum packed definitely fits

baboon2004
04-02-2016, 03:36 PM
i used to love those rawkus compilation albums, stuff like this that i imagine won't be popular here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kVW6-TwKqU

this is undeniable

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-81oHIESvQ8

On the subject of Mos Def/Yasiin Bey, what the hell was the 'world passport' he produced when trying not to get thrown out of South Africa?

is it this? http://www.worldservice.org/docpass.html I agree with it in principle of course, but I imagine it's a fairly long shot when dealing with the SA immigration authorities

droid
04-02-2016, 03:41 PM
This says it all.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-K5zdWH1KSg

rubberdingyrapids
04-02-2016, 03:58 PM
Again I appreciate your POV but I think it's something of a mistake to characterise ka/rocmarci as 'high minded'. I think it's a question of atmospherics rather than intelligence. As for 'purity', a lot of the samples Marciano uses, for example, are hardly the type you'd hear on a Mobb Deep song, e.g.

idk, marciano's reloaded reminds me of alchemists recent stuff, production-wise.

by high minded, i just mean it seems like connoisseural street rap. id imagine they do think theyre doing something 'purer' than most rappers, 'truer to the art'.

i think you can cleave to a certain east coast 'purism', or a distilled, minimalist version of that sound, even when youre not trying to sound like records in 1994 (i.e like The UN). its a very minimal, aesthetically pure take on boom bap, unadorned, seemingly barely produced. boom bap without the boom.


I guess what makes it seem austere is the lack of emotion in either rappers voice. It's all flat-toned, poker-faced, ice-cold. Although actually that DOES make me think of Mobb Deep. On the face of it its joyless. The joy in it comes from the exhilaration you feel (and which they must feel, one assumes) at the intricacy of the rhyme schemes.

there was a lot of emotion on the infamous. less so as they settled into a certain idea of mobb deep. or maybe that was the samples on the infamous?

luka
04-02-2016, 04:11 PM
But a lot of that emotion was generated by depicting in a chillingly convincing manner, the state of numbness, trauma essentially

(most memorably "I'm only 19 but...")

luka
04-02-2016, 04:15 PM
Leaving aside sonics I think that was their big contribution. New York winters, dead friends, crack zombies, skunk and gin as anaesthetic etc

Corpsey
04-02-2016, 04:28 PM
Anyway, this has gone a bit off topic. I was intending to flood dissensus with Planet Asia videos.

rubberdingyrapids
04-02-2016, 04:30 PM
yeah fair point. it was half scary, half vulnerable (again maybe it was just the samples that lent it that sort of tragedy/pathos, idk). like hell on earth was all the stuff youre saying, but also kind of beautiful/pained in places (the diff between the title track and something like the totally numb godfather part 3). the later stuff went more for just the cold, apathetic, emotionally dead, trigger happy angle.

rubberdingyrapids
04-02-2016, 04:35 PM
ONE OF THE ALL TIME GREATS -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79qX7l4y-q4

this whole album is excellent

luka
04-02-2016, 04:40 PM
Anyway, this has gone a bit off topic. I was intending to flood dissensus with Planet Asia videos.
there but for the grace of God...

luka
04-02-2016, 04:57 PM
Worth thinking about how ka, roc etc differ from
https://youtu.be/-srYp7cKRFk

luka
04-02-2016, 05:01 PM
Ny gothic continuum

luka
04-02-2016, 05:04 PM
There's a playlist in that. Muggs-rza-mobb onwards

CrowleyHead
04-02-2016, 10:20 PM
Any sense of high-mindedness on the part of Ka is fair point. He definitely has a penchant for digging out particularly 'arty' sample picks that give his music a sense of gravitas, but that's what he's going for. You have to remember, him and Marci aren't YOUNG guys by any stretch of the imagination. The UN was a group Roc had been in, but he'd been rapping since the late 80s early 90s as a teen, so if anything that makes him closer to Nas' age than anything.

Luka def. got close to something when he pointed to the 'vitality' of the music; it lacks the energy and propulsion of even your trad underground hip-hop of the modern day. My father listened to the new Prhyme (Premier and Royce) album recently and was bored to tears, calling it "Professional Hip-Hop". The trenchant nature in something like Marc's work is usually dependent on the fact that its made by a guy who wants to capture the feeling of making the rap of that era, but without any sense of trying to escape what the music should sound like for a guy of his age, and for the New York that doesn't exist while being observant of the fact that it doesn't exist.

Something like "Marcberg" is very much an album about time starting to exile you, and I can personally testify that Hempstead (which was right next to where my grandmother used to live) is such a dying community that despite being a bit of a commercial sub-urb (its got a LOT of office buildings taking up most of the property, so if its not huge apartment complexes or housing communities, its buildings that are half rented that you can't even enter taking up stretches of blocks) its just impossible to truly live in. Trying to make music with a romantic feel like Joey Badass does for Brooklyn (which is already such a lie because he goes to a school for the dramatic arts and his family is rich, like, why are you going to pretend to make Nas songs when you simply did not live the life of Nas, who didn't even live the life of his records but knew it was happening close to him) would be disingenuous, so Ka's version where he's remembering the time that's no longer there and reflective on how its lingering for him, that is a much more healthy take.

Its why its the only East Coast Rap I've made in a while besides GS9 (Bobby Shmurda & Rowdy Rebel) or Manolo Rose. They sound like kids trying to make songs for their city in the terms they've inherited from years and years of growing up on NYC's hits. But Ka/Marci also sound like how I kind of feel a certain grown man approach to rap should sound if you've had the sense of career strain that they've had.

Luka; did you also check the A.G. (Showbiz and A.G., not this A.G. Da Coroner dude) album he did where he was really influenced by Roc at this time? Its interesting solely for the fact that its such a pre-established Backpack Icon playing with those tropes.

CrowleyHead
04-02-2016, 10:21 PM
That was long as hell, but it took me forever to get my shit together enough today to reply.

luka
04-02-2016, 10:27 PM
Luka; did you also check the A.G. (Showbiz and A.G., not this A.G. Da Coroner dude) album he did where he was really influenced by Roc at this time? Its interesting solely for the fact that its such a pre-established Backpack Icon playing with those tropes.

No but that sounds interesting. I got a mate who probably owns it I'll ask him. The ka/roc aesthetic is interesting to think about. Its more idiosyncratic than p.rhyme.
I can't help admiring it but can't come close to loving it either. I do come back to it from time to time to see if my feelings have changed.

Corpsey
04-02-2016, 11:26 PM
https://youtu.be/4fn3HALHHUg

Very interesting post Crowley.

Tbh I don't think about the aesthetic of Roc Marciano that much when I'm listening to it. (Not to devalue discussing this.) I just find this beat atmospheric and haunting, Marciano sounds cool as fuck rapping and the quotables just pile up. That's a boring thing to discuss about it, perhaps, but in essence to me I just enjoy that thrill of someone being clever with words without being "CLEVER".

Marciano's lyrics tend towards being fragmentary, I guess. He's reeling off rhyme schemes, there's no running theme just little pictorial details, no message to it beyond being the coolest guy imaginable. But it all feels very " writerly". Which I guess is the high-minded thing, too.

I guess him and Ka make music that seems quite complex (and in a sense IS) but to me there's a simple instinctive pleasure to the zone it puts me in.

Again, I qualify all this by acknowledging that there are maybe three or four really great songs on "Reloaded". "Marcberg" has got some really great songs on it too...

Corpsey
04-02-2016, 11:27 PM
Worth thinking about how ka, roc etc differ from
https://youtu.be/-srYp7cKRFk

BTW am I misremembering this or was 50 Cent somehow involved with Ka?

Corpsey
04-02-2016, 11:30 PM
Like mobb deep is high renaissance this is mannerism. Aesthetically accomplished but without cultural vitality

The Dr yen lo video you posted was really a superb illustration of what you are saying

luka
04-02-2016, 11:50 PM
Maybe noir is a better descriptor than gothic on reflection

mistersloane
05-02-2016, 01:12 AM
Hauntology rap

slackk
05-02-2016, 01:18 AM
there's almost a scene of that sub roc marciano stuff now

hus kingpin has a couple of good ones

trza
05-02-2016, 03:54 AM
i always loved that funcrusher plus was an album that celebrated the crushing of fun. like think of fun, then think of destroying anything fun and you have that album.

luka
05-02-2016, 08:48 AM
there's almost a scene of that sub roc marciano stuff now

hus kingpin has a couple of good ones

https://youtu.be/QUTD9ok997k

https://youtu.be/vf_nHvOH9D0

luka
05-02-2016, 09:00 AM
https://youtu.be/83Zh09rshxU

Corpsey
05-02-2016, 09:12 AM
Backpacker (US slang)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In US urban slang, a backpacker is one who listens to backpacker hip hop (alternative hip hop).[1]
In the 1980s, backpacker was a slang term for a graffiti artist who always wore a backpack containing his music collection and graffiti equipment. Typically, the music collection would consist of local alternative hip hop artists. The term gradually came to refer to someone with this musical taste, and now has almost nothing to do with graffiti (although certain "backpackers" may participate in graffiti "tagging.") It later became a derogatory epithet for alternative hip hop.
To the desert trackers of the American southwest, the term backpacker is slang for a drug trafficker.[2]

Further research material http://www.factmag.com/2015/02/25/the-100-best-indie-hip-hop-records-of-all-time/

rubberdingyrapids
05-02-2016, 09:35 AM
im not ashamed to say i like this track and i wasnt ever a dilated fan when they came out -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6Fqd0WOBjw

this is also one of the best rza-doom type tracks not produced by rza or doom -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hyJqHEaE3U

like, this could be from an old killa army or sunz of man album.

but i dont know if its good to turn this thread into yet another youtube bonanza

luka
05-02-2016, 09:45 AM
Virtually that whole fact list is irredeemable. I'd keep can ox, Keith, aceyalone, ditc and that's about it.

rubberdingyrapids
05-02-2016, 09:48 AM
it seems pretty good actually. though ive only checked the top 20. that east flatbush project single is all time classic. more for the beat than the rapping though. and the ceunbites album should be number one and edans first album should replace beauty and the beat.

the main issue with the list though is that it has too many albums. ive got a lot of time for the guy but do i really want to hear a whole j zone album in 2016? most of the great indie releases were singles or EPs, or maybe compilations, with a few exceptions here and there.

Corpsey
05-02-2016, 10:20 AM
Not a fan of DOOM, Luka? Not even Op Doomsday?

Corpsey
05-02-2016, 10:21 AM
the main issue with the list though is that it has too many albums. ive got a lot of time for the guy but do i really want to hear a whole j zone album in 2016? most of the great indie releases were singles or EPs, or maybe compilations, with a few exceptions here and there.

Hip Hop Connection did a good top 50/100 (one of those) independent rap 12''s, shame it's not online.

I should dig that issue out of the attic and scan it in maybe.

luka
05-02-2016, 10:40 AM
Nah I find it very irritating. Whimsical like Donovan

Corpsey
05-02-2016, 10:43 AM
Boil that down - cos he wears a mask?

luka
05-02-2016, 11:07 AM
Black Tom waits? Nothing to do with the costume. Its the production and lyrics. Im in a minority though. It just grates on me.

rubberdingyrapids
05-02-2016, 11:08 AM
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/13740933/img/13740933.jpg

https://www.morrisonhotelgallery.com/images/medium/Tom%20Waits%202.jpg

http://d2jos65913uaef.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/mf_doom-mf_dope.jpeg

luka
05-02-2016, 11:08 AM
The unresolvedness, the messiness, the wacky kookiness, the pop culture references

Corpsey
05-02-2016, 01:51 PM
I dunno if its the roughness of his voice but I never really hear DOOM as nerdy, even though he obviously is. It's more that Wu Tang kind of nerdiness. I appreciate that you don't like amateurish music with that half-baked homespun feel, so I can see why it doesn't work for you.

I guess DOOM is perhaps a precursor to Ka/Roc marci et al in that he's got that sort of conversational style of rapping - the polar opposite of Meek Mill, e.g.

trza
05-02-2016, 03:19 PM
I thought Macklemore and Ryan Lewis were just modern versions of this movement, and they won a Grammy a couple of years ago.

rubberdingyrapids
05-02-2016, 03:22 PM
there was a sage francis interview where he said he thought macklemore was taking what they did into the mainstream.

i guess doom is 'conversational', i sort of consider roc marci almost whispering, speaking in a downlow quiet hush.

woops
05-02-2016, 03:31 PM
that east flatbush project single is all time classic. more for the beat than the rapping though.

I became aware of this tune via the remixes


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlxrBCyPlis

And so just to derail the thread for a sec


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CESYvCI66rY

rubberdingyrapids
05-02-2016, 03:53 PM
this wasnt a mega hit or anything but seems so quintessentially late 90s new york. i had an evil dee drums record with this break on it. its just ridiculously hard drums, a moody, wintry, two note slightly melancholy piano loop, and thats pretty much it. the rapping is pretty so-so, but it doesnt matter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJHu-RgDBCM

mistersloane
05-02-2016, 04:09 PM
I really refute the Donovan stuff. I know what you mean, obviously. But this. This.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/p1VlYTIy_KA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

"miscroscopic circles in the fluid of my sight"

It's the best description.

mistersloane
05-02-2016, 04:17 PM
Dennid Cooper says it, and I'll say it too, that for a couple of albums, he managed to get hallucinogenic alliteration better than anyone else. Later stuff sucks but whose doesn't.

mistersloane
05-02-2016, 04:23 PM
But mainly if I listen to this stuff - and I did alot, though less the backpacker stuff - it's for the music, which is still amazing. The Yen Lo tunes are mindblowing. The lyricists haven't caught up, or if they have, they're Thugga and Awful abstraction on those beats. Keep up kids.

We want rap's Wasteland.

CrowleyHead
05-02-2016, 08:16 PM
I thought Macklemore and Ryan Lewis were just modern versions of this movement, and they won a Grammy a couple of years ago.

Macklemore and Ryan Lewis were originally on the label run by Blue Scholars (GET IT!? *eyeroll*) who were themselves Atmosphere wannabes and then lo and behold.

So yes, Slug is responsible for that "Ceiling Can't Hold Us" song.

CrowleyHead
05-02-2016, 08:20 PM
No but that sounds interesting. I got a mate who probably owns it I'll ask him. The ka/roc aesthetic is interesting to think about. Its more idiosyncratic than p.rhyme.
I can't help admiring it but can't come close to loving it either. I do come back to it from time to time to see if my feelings have changed.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/rsCee-OxeMY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/vXnlrW6Svwk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

trza
05-02-2016, 08:44 PM
i thought warp records was trying to get in on this action when they started the lex imprint.

dert
10-02-2016, 12:00 AM
Hip Hop Connection did a good top 50/100 (one of those) independent rap 12''s, shame it's not online.

I should dig that issue out of the attic and scan it in maybe.

would be interested in seeeing this!

whats the best ka album to start?

mistersloane
10-02-2016, 12:11 AM
would be interested in seeeing this!

whats the best ka album to start?

Grief Pedigree is a solid start I'd say.

nomos
10-02-2016, 01:28 AM
Revenge of the nerd: I've been reading The Song Machine and learned that Dr. Luke (as in Kesha, Avril Lavigne, Katy Perry, etc.) started out producing for Rawkus under the name Kasz. Can't find any clips though.

rubberdingyrapids
10-02-2016, 09:56 AM
he did a remix for blackstar too iirc

luka
10-02-2016, 10:59 AM
West coast was better than East for this stuff

luka
10-02-2016, 11:01 AM
Does the rubber dingy still live in Ilford?

rubberdingyrapids
10-02-2016, 11:17 AM
no, im in west london now.

luka
10-02-2016, 11:47 AM
Sell out

luka
10-02-2016, 11:48 AM
I was just reading your post while my train went past Ilford that's why I asked. Loads of Ilford people on here. More Ilford people than London people. Very mysterious

rubberdingyrapids
10-02-2016, 11:59 AM
doesnt sound that mysterious that if you were on a train going past ilford, it would have 'ilford people' (whatever that means, do you just mean migrants?) on it. essex isnt london anyway, even those parts that arent deep essex like brentwood, southend, etc. its still not leyton or stratford. although, i always thought it was weird that south woodford is part of london and ilford isnt. ilford feels more like east london than south woodford does.

luka
10-02-2016, 12:04 PM
Lol I mean loads of people from Ilford on dissensus not on my train!

luka
10-02-2016, 12:04 PM
You dickhead! Migrants lol

luka
10-02-2016, 12:05 PM
Ilford was very white when I was growing up. Its was Essex proper

luka
10-02-2016, 12:06 PM
Mass brawls up and down the high St every weekend

rubberdingyrapids
10-02-2016, 12:46 PM
yeah it was v diff

i remember it being mostly jewish

i recently found out kele from bloc party went to ilford county high

theres two good new semi upmarket turkish kebab places in gants hill now

i hate what theyve done to gants hill library - it was better before they gave it the 'modern british library/social meeting place/IT resource' makeover

droid
10-02-2016, 03:22 PM
Say what you like about Ilford, they still make the best film.

DannyL
10-02-2016, 06:19 PM
I'm from the Ill Ford. For me, yeah, it's where Essex kinda starts, by which I mean the white working class Essex that's comprised of all the East London expats who moved out either post WW2 and the Blitiz, or a bit later "to get away from the blacks" (as I've had said to me by the fathers of people I was at school with). My memories of it are bound up with growing up with Asian kids though - big Sikh community down Ilford Lane and thereabouts. These two communities seemed to sit uneasily together but I don't remember much aggro between 'em as the Asian guys didn't go drinking. Biggest in London bar Southall I think.

And Friday/Saturday night for fighting outside Fifth Avenue and that stretch of the High Street where the wine bars were. Various mates got gassed, glassed or biffed down there. I took a smack elsewhere up the High Street once (kinda my fault).

Not been there for years. What's it like now?

rubberdingyrapids
11-02-2016, 09:19 AM
THE FORD IS ILL, YO.

most of the people on my street were either old cockneys who escaped east london, or jewish people who escaped east london (we were one of the few asian families on our road in the 80s). but in my experience (strictly anecdotal) a lot of jewish people dont seem too keen on having a lot south asian people in the area. my mum goes to an older ladies group in barkingside and says she overhears a lot of griping about it. id have thought sikhs would be down the pub, they dont tend to be tee total (unless theyre being really religious. theres a reason you had a massive pub like glassy junction in southall). i somehow never went fifth avenue but went to the island a lot, before it became a restaurant.

ilford to me now seems like an extension of east ham, stratford, etc.

luka
11-02-2016, 10:30 AM
Yeah I'd agree with that. Its completely lost its Essex character. We've had a few nights out in Ilford discussions on here.

rubberdingyrapids
11-02-2016, 10:52 AM
essex is definitely alive at faces and visage lol

but yknow, no one made all the english residents move. they made that choice. white flight impacted areas like ilford as much as the new migrants coming in.

Corpsey
11-05-2016, 01:40 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQF6x_FgnJ0

Aesop Rock's latest album, soundtracking a reproduction in miniature of The Shining. I don't know if I hate this or not yet.

rubberdingyrapids
13-05-2016, 10:51 AM
i dont really know what makes this any diff from other UKHH but it got a quietus review -

http://thequietus.com/articles/20202-ocean-wisdom-chaos-93-album-review

his caustic observations sharing more with The Sleaford Mods or Mark E Smith, than Jay Z and Nas.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Bxqkjm52Cc

its alright actually.

vital work in a maturing genre by a young talent, which should be as gripping a listen for those who know they’ll love it, as it is necessary for those who think they won’t.

thats you lot told.

this video came up after the one above. bit more grimey. post-dizzee ukhh. sounds like they heard kode 9's 9 samurai and copied it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TG-RV9TUbk4

i found another review of it.


To say there’s some hype about the release of Chaos 93, the debut album from Brighton’s own Ocean Wisdom on High Focus, is a bit like saying Stormzy got some love this Christmas.

im worried that i didnt even know about the hype around this album.

trza
13-05-2016, 03:07 PM
I think I hear some backpacker influence on the pop group 21 Pilots, but they have a lot of elements of different styles.

Corpsey
13-05-2016, 03:12 PM
im worried that i didnt even know about the hype around this album.

That High Focus crew have got a lot of fans, albeit (I assume) in the UKHipHop enclave that used to worship Task Force. They've worked with Premier, and that's taken as a big thing even in 2015-odd, which gives you an idea of their demographic.

CrowleyHead
14-05-2016, 04:32 PM
I think I hear some backpacker influence on the pop group 21 Pilots, but they have a lot of elements of different styles.

Twentyone Pilots is ridiculously huge in America, but ironically I don't think any music critic has really tried to address what they do b/c they're looked at like rap rock or something.

WebEschatology
15-05-2016, 07:15 PM
Twentyone Pilots is ridiculously huge in America, but ironically I don't think any music critic has really tried to address what they do b/c they're looked at like rap rock or something.

i heard one of their songs for the first time yesterday, thought it was awful

WebEschatology
13-07-2016, 05:39 PM
performing necromancy on the thread to say i've been listening to that Homeboy Sandman album that came out a while back

i can see how some people would find parts of it chintsy and grating but i think it's the best thing he's done

rubberdingyrapids
14-09-2016, 03:22 PM
i dunno where else to post this. but i saw the stretch n bobbito documentary yesterday. reminded me how a lot of 90s rap lyrics were quite bad actually. or not 'bad', just very much of their time. but at the end, stretch says he couldnt do the show with bobbito anymore cos he just didnt have the passion. it had left him. he got too old for this shit. i respect him for being honest about it (though he could probably be honest about it as while not rich, i dont think he had nothing to fall back on). docu didnt focus enough on backpack vs commercial rap though, which also played a part in driving them them apart.

that aside, time has allowed me to see more clearly that biggie really is one of the absolute best. its not just puffy driven hyperbole as i thought at the time. and big pun is actually even better than i thought. pharoahe monch is actually a bit overrated. so is OC. and big l too even, for that matter.

i like the new zach de la rocha song, produced by el-p.

Corpsey
14-09-2016, 03:53 PM
To be fair to Big L, he never got to fulfil his potential, which was not inconsiderable. A lot of charisma, witty, profane punchlines, great storyteller ('Casualties of a Dice Game'), and could do substantive stuff too ('Fed Up With The Bullshit' e.g.). Reckon he'd have been a good fit for Rocafella, alongside Cam and Jay.

I've never really listened to much OC beyond 'Times Up'. Should rectify that really. I'm feeling like getting back into 90s rap after a prolonged period of being tired of it.

Re: Big Pun, he belongs to that 1997-99 era that I will always think of as a sort of golden age, because that's when I got into rap. Him, Canibus, DMX, Noreaga, No Limit, Bad Boy... Every era is a golden era somewhere, though.

rubberdingyrapids
14-09-2016, 03:58 PM
To be fair to Big L, he never got to fulfil his potential, which was not inconsiderable. A lot of charisma, witty, profane punchlines, great storyteller ('Casualties of a Dice Game'), and could do substantive stuff too ('Fed Up With The Bullshit' e.g.). Reckon he'd have been a good fit for Rocafella, alongside Cam and Jay.

I've never really listened to much OC beyond 'Times Up'. Should rectify that really. I'm feeling like getting back into 90s rap after a prolonged period of being tired of it.

Re: Big Pun, he belongs to that 1997-99 era that I will always think of as a sort of golden age, because that's when I got into rap. Him, Canibus, DMX, Noreaga, No Limit, Bad Boy... Every era is a golden era somewhere, though.

i think 'progressive' rap flows peaked in that era. pun was the zenith. he had that technical precision, but still enough heart and passion (or okay, violent/hardcore/funny lyrics) to not just be appreciated by rap nerds.

im listening to the FOUR DISC bad boy 20th anniversary box set. but i might go back to the first big l album again cos im prob being unfair. its funny that he blew up with that rawkus album when the first one was a second tier masterpiece of the era. im not sure if he would have fit with dipset. he had his own crew (mcgruff etc).

luka
14-09-2016, 05:08 PM
progressive flows peacked with freestyle feelowship and organized konfusion in the early 90s. pun was good but it was just a linear development of the kool g rap flow overloaded with internals and multis.

rubberdingyrapids
14-09-2016, 05:12 PM
i wanted to use a diff word than progressive. OK, FF, those were progressive. progressive in the sense of self consciously 'advancing' the music.

yeah pun was basically a better kool g rap but that idea of superior rap flows as being those that were the most densely packed peaked with pun i think. he was immaculate. you say just a linear development, i say the perfected version of that.

luka
14-09-2016, 05:21 PM
eminem took it further probably but pun was funnier

rubberdingyrapids
14-09-2016, 05:31 PM
eminem is actually weirdly underrated. overrated by people who dont know hip hop. underrated by those who do. his latest stuff has def been him in his craft over everything else phase.

WebEschatology
14-09-2016, 07:32 PM
eminem is actually weirdly underrated. overrated by people who dont know hip hop. underrated by those who do. his latest stuff has def been him in his craft over everything else phase.

i cant help but feel this quote can partially be applied to Public Enemy aswell

i gave Marshall Mathers LP 2 a listen a while back i could see how somebody would whose just into really technical rapping would enjoy that album but it would also mean having to tollerate alot of really bad beats and tired concepts

Corpsey
14-09-2016, 08:46 PM
I don't think he's got much musical taste really, which is why his early work with Dre was the best cos Dre was probably guiding him. Nobody can deny he's insanely talented as a rapper and songwriter but I honestly can't stand most of his music from Eminem Show onwards. (Which involved Dre, so maybe torpeedoing my argument lol). Also even some of his best music is tainted with a hint of novelty, especially since those old pop disses are so dated. Oh and then there's the rampant homophobia and juvenility.

Edit: I was going to say Eminem has a hint of savant about him but I'm worried that's offensive. But you know, that obsession with rhyming words.

rubberdingyrapids
15-09-2016, 10:53 AM
dr. dre's production and eminem's music has declined at approximately the same pace.

dre should do more mixing/overseeing work though.

baboon2004
15-09-2016, 12:30 PM
i dunno where else to post this. but i saw the stretch n bobbito documentary yesterday. reminded me how a lot of 90s rap lyrics were quite bad actually. or not 'bad', just very much of their time. but at the end, stretch says he couldnt do the show with bobbito anymore cos he just didnt have the passion. it had left him. he got too old for this shit. i respect him for being honest about it (though he could probably be honest about it as while not rich, i dont think he had nothing to fall back on). docu didnt focus enough on backpack vs commercial rap though, which also played a part in driving them them apart.


thanks for the reminder to watch that documentary, which I have just done. What did you think of it? I was amazed that they hadn't hired someone to make a proper documentary, rather than do it themselves as a kind of love-in. I think their show was amazing, and the doc had fascinating moments, but there was very little narrative to the film at all.

I may have misunderstood, but wasn't there an argument between S&B in terms of lyrical content as well? S confessed he was only concerned about the beats, so ended up playing a lot of stuff that B didn't like the lyrical content of, cos he viewed the show as having had more conscious beginnings in 1990-1. I admit that this didn't make total sense to me, but I thought that's what was said, along with the things you mentioned above.

It was interesting to me as well, just how little outlet there was for (hardcore) hip hop on the radio at that time in New York ( I knew there wasn't much, but didn't realise it was quite so stark as S&B or nothing). Maybe it there had been more outlets, then the music could have mutated in a different way, and become something else, in the same way that the large number of pirates in London must have driven and hastened the rapid turnover of styles in the 1990s/2000s. Is it possible Stretch got bored because the music, while frequently brilliant, seemed to be locked into a template that wasn't shifting too much?

Also, it put S&B in a position of almost unfeasible power, as gatekeepers - I think the doc underplayed the implications of that massively

rubberdingyrapids
15-09-2016, 01:51 PM
yeah its not a great documentary. the fact they are the ones interviewing everyone makes it a bit like their show, and thats not really what you want for a film like this.

youre right, they did touch on the schisms (stretch starting a label that put out more thugged out stuff, and bobbitos label specialising in more 'undie' stuff) that rose up in the late 90s, and how in a sense, it helped drive them apart, but it seemed like a moment to actually shed a bit more light on their relationship, and their breakup, one they didnt really investigate. someone else holding the reigns could have done a better job.

it didnt really give you the context of what else was happening in rap radio at the time, or in the city even, only occasionally touching on clubs being dangerous, etc. there were other rap shows at the time, and mixtapes, so the doc somehow underplays what they did differently, and overplays it at the same time as it ignores other guys on radio playing hip hop both before and at the same time as S&B. also, for such an 'underground' show, even allowing for the fact that nas, jay-z and everyone else werent really popstars at the time they were on the show, i think they should have featured more underground artists too, the people who popped up, killed it, but never made it that big.

it made me think of what a film about, say NWA would be like, if ice cube and dre were interviewing everyone else, involved with the group. most of the interviews were like what youd get on a typical rap show. you dont really get that deep into it.

CrowleyHead
15-09-2016, 02:18 PM
Big L was fucking rubbish; death and lack of ambition by running with also rans is what's made him seem like an influential artist. People want to claim he could've been just as big as Jay-Z if he'd been given the platform: pure bullshit. He was an average punchline artist, truly Papoose's father in every way shape and form. Mind you I LOVE punchline rappers, punchline bars are everything, everyone loves jokes, but those aren't lyrics, nor are they songs and at the end of the day, every 'concept' song Big L had devolved into a series of similes that loosely connect to an overarching category.

I have more thoughts on a lot of this but I have to table it for now.

rubberdingyrapids
15-09-2016, 02:50 PM
big l reminds me of what chris rock said about rap lyrics -


The Stones can play arenas because the Stones have songs that are not purely based on references that you had to be there for. I love Public Enemy. But they don't have "You Can't Always Get What You Want." Kanye will be able to play arenas maybe more than Jay Z honestly, because there's a vulnerability and an emotional thing that happens in his music that doesn't happen in most rap. I love rap, but rap is like comedy: It rots. Comedy rots. Trading Places is a perfect movie, just unbelievably good. But there are other comedies, not nearly as old as Trading Places, that just have references and things in them that aren't funny five years later. And rap's got a lot of that.


they talk about that old jay-z/big l freestyle in the documentary, and how some see it as a tragedy that l could have, or even should have been as big as jay z but even at that point, its obvious how limited big l is/was. its no accident he was in DITC, and supported by guys like finesse, and diamond d.

i now think fat joe is the best rapper in DITC.

craner
15-09-2016, 09:17 PM
I would like to request more gossip on Big L and DITC please, Crowley. I could read your rambles all day, every day.

luka
15-09-2016, 11:06 PM
Big l didn'tcome up with also rans he was in a crew with killa cam and murdah mase lol u all know that im not even a fan but he could have been better than jay not that thays saying much

luka
15-09-2016, 11:07 PM
All that stuff cam has been saying about the murder is a bit mntal too I like that verse knots in my sox cops think im selling rox

luka
15-09-2016, 11:08 PM
Pulling me over to see if im drunk
But im sober
They wouldn't fuck with me if I drove a nova

luka
15-09-2016, 11:09 PM
Hes not trash

CrowleyHead
15-09-2016, 11:32 PM
Big l didn'tcome up with also rans he was in a crew with killa cam and murdah mase lol u all know that im not even a fan but he could have been better than jay not that thays saying much

And those guys left him behind and he ended up with Showbiz & AG, Lord Finesse, Party Arty (*eyeroll*) and O.C. Also rans, has beens, etc.

Those guys made good records in their day that were coveted to a kind of rap fan who thought they were admirable for not 'selling out' when in reality the majority of them devolved into gangster/playa shit after the first LP, I think the second or third Show & AG album is even called Goodfellas. Fair play because Showbiz is a goon as much as he's a producer of good merit but an inability to go further than selling 80K is not 'keeping it real' its limited appeal. They were a bunch of anyones who were utterly run of the mil in the early 90s, and then when time went on they got increasingly old hat. Same is true of a lot of those acts that became backpack icons.

Mind you I love Lord Finesse as a producer and as a rapper but by the time of the big DITC push he's an absolute hack.

Its actually more difficult than it seems to be Jay-Z though. I was reminiscing with a friend about every time Nas tried to be like Jay and embrace talking to girls on records; he always adopted a gruff, unfriendly persona that was trying too hard to be assertive. Listening to the one song he had with Kelis, "Popular Thug".... I mean it says it all. Meanwhile, whenever Jay was conscious of that audience, he was playful, made a fool of himself, was entertaining and still cocky but wasn't trying nearly as hard. On paper this makes perfect sense, but think just how many rappers stumble and flail on that line even now (Drakk always sounds cozy for girls, to the point of seeming patronizingly simplistic terms, but consider Kendrick scrambling around on records alongside Drakk bellowing "I KNOW YOU WANT THIS DEEEEEK!" That appeals to who nerd!? Now nobody's going to remember all the poetic shit you were saying on the other songs!)

Backpack works because its a forgiveness of failure as an aesthetic, recognizing the value of what can't do as well as others (heralding Masta Ace as slept on when in reality he'd never be as good a performer as Kane and he's perfectly rated) only to always inevitably flip the monochromatic into a strength.

luka
15-09-2016, 11:40 PM
I dunno its generational I think he was witty enough he could of adaped if he wanted he had funny lines

luka
15-09-2016, 11:42 PM
Voice was weak but no weaker than jays

luka
15-09-2016, 11:49 PM
Also tbh they weren't even also rans in early 90s but snoop then big turned everythingupside down

luka
15-09-2016, 11:51 PM
Expectations changed platinum was the new level before it was having two funny lines per verse

rubberdingyrapids
16-09-2016, 10:59 AM
i didnt say ditc were shit, more that a guy like finesse was not really known for his great songwriting (finesse was a big big l supporter and its prob cos he reminded him of himself a bit, just more vicious). ditto diamond d. but all those guys had some good singles, or good lines, beats, etc.

youre getting a little hyperbolic with your broad strokes.

like luka says, in the mid 90s, they werent also rans, maybe not that popular with the average person (eg i remember working at jd sports around that time and playing lol lord finesse to someone but most of the ppl i worked with were more into busta, biggie, etc, the bigger stuff), but it wasnt like the gulf you have today between say, drake, and someone like madlib. if you want to dis them because they fell off, then fine, though rap is not really known for artists having staying power (i used to be quite into masta ace up until sittin on chrome, but after that, he lost me). and it looks a bit like youre punching down. the way youre approaching it, people would never look for obscure stuff, they would just think nope, '_____ wasnt the 'BEST' of their time, why bother!'

Corpsey
16-09-2016, 12:03 PM
Voice was weak but no weaker than jays

I dunno, listening back through some songs now I actually find his voice quite grating in large doses. Jay was a bit more like him in the earlier days, more obviously constricted by rhyme schemes, more obviously 'technical'. But he loosened up, adopted that conversational, laid-back style, and prospered.

People hate on Jay-Z and I recognise there's a case for him being overrated, but OTOH there's a reason he became THAT dude, and it isn't just cos Biggie got shot. Nas inadvertently gave Jay props for his music by saying 'what you think you get girls now cos of your LOOKS?'

rubberdingyrapids
16-09-2016, 12:09 PM
Nas inadvertently gave Jay props for his music by saying 'what you think you get girls now cos of your LOOKS?'

he wasnt a poor man.

craner
16-09-2016, 12:21 PM
I think 'Goodfellas' is a fabulous album, actually.

rubberdingyrapids
16-09-2016, 12:29 PM
i played it a lot. more than their first album. its got some brilliant production.

you can hear big l doing some of that fu schnickens/jay-z type of acrobatics on this -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soTya8ZB3VU
i used to listen to this and like all those people thinking big l could have been a contender, thought all his crew should have had record deals and had their own albums out the following year. mcgruff had a good voice. that pained, cormega kind of grain. weird hearing camron on this. he doesnt really stick out much at this point.

this is one of big pun's best vocals -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkRL7Wruf1I
i think i was wrong about him besting kool g rap. if you listen to kool g rap himself around this point, he was at his absolute peak (eg his verse on mop's stick to your gunz or fat joes you must be out your fucking mind). he became more furious actually, and then also had a new sort of OG authority. but pun was still ridiculously fluid.

Corpsey
16-09-2016, 01:14 PM
There's a lot of good stories about Big Pun, who was by all accounts an IRL thug

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pcMCrKwrmk

Kool G the God. I only ever bought one G Rap on CD and it was absolutely awful. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roots_of_Evil

The pre-internet days when you had to buy whatever was in HMV.

baboon2004
16-09-2016, 02:33 PM
Wow, Big L has come in for a pasting...

in general I don't see that being limited in what you can do is necessarily a bad thing, if you're exceptionally good at that one thing that you do - as Big L was. I used to love the Lifestylez album, and a big part of that was that the album was so cohesive - not a huge amount of variation, but it came together brilliantly as a whole, a particular vision superbly realised.

CrowleyHead
16-09-2016, 03:54 PM
Roots of Evil is good Corpse, you need to relisten to that.


in general I don't see that being limited in what you can do is necessarily a bad thing, if you're exceptionally good at that one thing that you do - as Big L was.

Rather that Lord Finesse had already done and done a million times better and Big L just ran into the ground. There's only so much worth in "Peanut Butter Ass Rappers; Damn Skippy" type bars, and people have to admit that to themselves. Vitriol aside Big L was good at a thing, but it was a gimmick, there was little else he could do, and then eventually when he died those limitations weren't recognized as a "Well, its a shame he didn't get to evolve into a better rapper/artist" it became "SLEPT ON". Nobody's sleeping on someone who can demonstrate all his best qualities in one verse, let alone one track.

(I actually forgot Diamond D who had easily one of the best albums of his era let alone of his crew so kudos to rubber to correcting me there)

I'm not interested in punching down, I'm more struggling with the eternal saga of the underground punching up at an opponent who isn't necessarily fighting them all the time; like some underachieving sibling resenting the other for following commonplace expectations. And its very rarely the artists themselves who hold onto those chips on their shoulder until they become older and get upset with things that are so divorced everything they worked towards (a la the Pete Rock / Lil Yachty fracas). Also the division between commercial and underground is usually more perceived from down the hill than up... Like, Alchemist albums had everyone in the mainstream, 50 Cent rapped over Exile and Disco D. Hell a dude in the DITC collective made "Woah!" which was a commercial banger for a guy on a label most often associated with undermining "The true Spirit of Hip-Hop" and all that. I wish I had better allegories than production-based examples in my head at the moment but...

baboon2004
16-09-2016, 09:14 PM
I'll have to check out Lord Finesse's early stuff in that case. But I just don't see any clear distinction between 'gimmicks' and things that are 'worth something' - some of the best records ever use 'gimmicks' if you wanted to name them as such, and were made by artists who ploughed the one furrow... it all gets to sounding a bit rockist very quickly

Otoh, I totally see that Big L wouldn't have been able to become the type of flexible superstar that Jay-Z became. That seems clear

WebEschatology
17-09-2016, 01:02 PM
I do get what Crowly is saying about the whole punching up aspect

i mean in some way or another its still there but i think at a certain point even the backpackers themselves got tired of hearing that old "all these guys talk about materialism, im a rapper trying to do something realer" routine when that kind of rapper practically became its own sub-genre.

The collapse of alot of the big labels from that era and downloading play a big part in that(Rhymesayers is the last one standing),once the safety net went all that "we're staying underground forever" talk just sounds so silly in retrospect.

But then again as somebody who lives in Europe considering that we still let Jurassic 5 sellout festivals and let La Coka Nostra tour Germany any chance they get, it might aswell still be 1998 over here.

also off topic but Black Robs first album is a classic

Roots of Evil is good aswell but alot of the beats on it stink

WebEschatology
21-09-2016, 04:24 PM
just stumbled upon Godfather Don's free jazz/avant-garde project:https://soundcloud.com/the-open-mind

Corpsey
12-04-2017, 08:40 PM
And also 7 eyes 7 horns, I love that as much as anything from the era
https://youtu.be/JHd7UNVnSsI



:love:

Corpsey
12-04-2017, 08:53 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjFusfUFgA4

I just remember when I was listening to Rawkus stuff in particular I had such a romantic idea of New York. All the iconography - the a-train, the graffiti, the cyphers, etc. Skateboarding. Blunts. (I was really into that movie 'Kids', and also 'La Haine', which was obviously about Paris, but was also sort of about New York.)

Corpsey
12-04-2017, 08:55 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qo3EwozH0Y

The bit when the camera flies over the streets. Loved it.

entertainment
14-04-2017, 05:27 PM
what a fucking classic movie ^^

Some stuff I remember listening to in Copenhagen when smoking weed and practicing our tags down by the train tracks:

"Suck my dick EP" straight outta the South Bronx of Northern Europe

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fzx-i6tKMc

entertainment
14-04-2017, 05:27 PM
More Copenhagen-produced

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDh3EmJcYG0

entertainment
14-04-2017, 05:28 PM
Stones Throw classic, old Madlib remix of a great Lootpack track

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpNKJgdGTKE

Corpsey
22-04-2017, 02:12 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sevZEOUXpw4

Still like this.

Corpsey
22-04-2017, 02:16 PM
Some stuff I remember listening to in Copenhagen when smoking weed and practicing our tags down by the train tracks:



It's interesting that that 'real hip-hop/4 pillars' culture was (and is?) so popular in Europe. In interviews I used to read, the old legends and more boom-bappy newschool artists always said that they were more popular in Europe than the US.

CrowleyHead
22-04-2017, 05:45 PM
It's interesting that that 'real hip-hop/4 pillars' culture was (and is?) so popular in Europe. In interviews I used to read, the old legends and more boom-bappy newschool artists always said that they were more popular in Europe than the US.

For Europe rap has to be consumed as an import genre and so when stylistic shifts happen the home-grown audience is turning over with that and may/may not continue to support but for the European consumer you want the specific thing that came with Boom Bap Real Hip-Hop. It helps that the Real Hip-Hop style is designed around urban environments and often samples jazz (which uses instruments generally of european origin) or classical. G-Funk and West Coast Styles do not translate as well necessarily and certainly not southern rap which when it does attempt sampling often relies on blues/soul samples. Obviously that's not 100% the case because Snoop is able to tour and do well in Europe but I'd like to see which if any of those non-East Coast or East Coast Indebted* acts do well touring in Europe.

(*so in that regard, obviously The Alkaholiks aren't from NYC but they don't make West Coast Rap like the NWA affiliates do and therefore are easier to be consumed by real hip-hop fans, and that applies to the Dilla affiliates of Detroit or Cunninglynguists from the South)

Corpsey
22-04-2017, 07:41 PM
That's all true, although of course rap music along the lines of Drake, Migos, Rae Sremmurd, etc. are all really popular here with da kidz, not to mention the rise of yer Giggs's and yer Stormzy's. Thank GOD UK rap seems to have shaken off the DJ Premier worship! (Where's Luka when you need him with an art history analogy.)

Road rap is obviously Brits spinning a US sound, but at least it's a relatively contemporary sound!

CrowleyHead
23-04-2017, 06:49 PM
Yeah, a lot of that has been ebbed away at by the internet and just the modern rap fan being expected to hear a little bit of every style so that they're much more used to it.

Ironically the most succesful rapper who is basically a backpacker in aesthetic is Denzel Curry, who has little to no Real Hip Hop in him beat-wise or approach.

entertainment
23-04-2017, 07:24 PM
Probably has to do with the differences in the general attitude around commercial success between the US and elsewhere, too.

Here, it was cool to get into what wasn't on the radio. My extensive knowledge of high school movies tells me it carries different connotations overseas.

I think it's changed a bit now, though. I feel like the entire western culture is morphing into a more uniform shape. Idiosyncratically american cultural artefacts don't feel so strange anymore. I find myself laughing with instead of at The Kardashians tv-show. This year we even have The Weeknd headlining Roskilde Festival, which seems like a big disjunction with the historical vibe of the event (I have nothing against him, but at this point in his career, it's more pop appeal than anything else isn't it?).

luka
01-06-2017, 04:02 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQpEiSZqOq4