Blackdown on R'n'G

Woebot

Well-known member
http://blackdownsoundboy.blogspot.com/2005/04/guns-or-gyals.html

Our man Blackdown comes down quite heavily against the shift towards R'n'G. Picking up Cameo for criticism for dividing his playlist.

Actually I pretty much agree. As a (now retired) THC-juiced sounbwoy and testosterone-fuelled psychonaut I guess thats my prerogative.

On the other hand I suppose in some ways it'd be good if the two scenes MCs and R'n'G could mutually exist, like in the way they did in Roots Reggae, though I do share Blackdown's fear that the MC's role will become ancillary. That D Double and Kano (the perfect candidate for this stuff) will end up chatting a few bars alongside some sweet ladee.
 

gumdrops

Well-known member
R&G would be a lot better without the guest verses from MCs. its as bad as american R&B when they do that. R&G is actually really good, as far as brit takes on R&B goes, it just needs some better songs, thats all. i dont see the MCs taking a backseat or anything though, simply cos the MCS are leading grime, theyre the main draws. if grime and R&G can co-exist though, i think that would be great. R&G just needs to stop being so blatantly catered to the girls - too much pandering.
 

Blackdown

nexKeysound
if loads of strong female R&G artists emerge, i'm in it. but if it's loads of token birds bolted onto the latest grime-lite beat and thrust into a bait video, count me out.
 

gumdrops

Well-known member
the problem would come if R&G gets big, and grime in its purer state doesnt. cos as you say, more MCs would all just be desperate to get on some wack commercial R&G beat and leave the 'real' grime alone, or the music would merge into one icky blur, neither 'hard' like grime, nor melodic/sweet like R&G. it would actually turn into the UK version of the disgusting morass thats happened between hip hop and R&B in the states. which would NOT be a good look at all.

still, worse and more influential i would say, would be be if roll deep do really well with their new direction - if they hit the big time, then i can easily imagine many more MCs, producers and crews going that blatantly commercial route too.
 
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Blackdown

nexKeysound
grime in it's "pure" pirate state will never cross over. it's so angry it would either never be mass marketed to people or never get mainstream on its own...
 

gumdrops

Well-known member
i dont mean in its purer pirate state, rather it's 'dizzee' state. dizzee might do a track like dream with cd: uk in mind, but both of his two albums have refused to go commercial/pop/whatever and have stayed 'true' (as tricky a term as that is) to the underground sound IMHO, likely more than even kano's album will do.
 

Diggedy Derek

Stray Dog
Worth noting that Cameo hasn't segregated his show into grime/RnG permanently- just a one off I think, perhaps not even a deliberate one.

I think there's some good tunes out there, personally, but it's not ready to blow. If they stop going on about the RnG flavour and let it develop organically, maybe it'll come good. But as things stand, there's not enough distinctive tracks.
 

stelfox

Beast of Burden
personally i love the gyals... love them in ragga, loved them in 2step, really, really love them in grime. if the scene can keep a lock on the things that martin hightlighted (sidelining of male mc talent etc), this is a great way for grime to move... and hell, it's gotta be tough for women to get along in the uber-macho pirate zone; nice to see they're getting noticed, too.
 
R&G lol...'obviously' has nothing to do with Snoop's

latest LP being subtitled with the same moniker (yes I know his one was Rhythm and Gangsta). Its 'funny' that they also emerged at around the same time aswell...coincedence im sure lol....

look being as garage/grime/NUKG owes MANY elements to US Hip Hop this kind of thing was bound to happen. In the States, R&B has many Hip Hop producers making a loop and getting a 'chick' to jus wail over it your seeing the same thing here jus faster tempos and more synth melodies

Its a shame but when you have such a co-dependent, idea devoid genre such as garage/grime/NUKG its bound to happen....

when it's done well its good like the States (see 'Mr DJ' or 'So Sure'....)

when its bad its baaaaaaddd (see the one that Cameo plays done by Vandal and Mondie :eek: also even the brilliant Katie Pearl struggling with 'Ghetto Kyote')

me personally I can't stand the 'R&G' thing....I find it demeaning like if you sing insincere songs about love in a minor key or triplet melody ladies will flock but I know for a fact ladies don't e.g sistas round my ends. Almost as bad as Kano and 679 thinking if he added some 'ROCK' (lol!) guitar to his music he could cross over cos of course guitar equals the white mainstream LOL....

Also I can't stand 'producers' (or 'loopers' as I call 'em) who have a lack of musical ability making these songs. Jus bring mo' female mc's I say....
 

mms

sometimes
Tactics said:
me personally I can't stand the 'R&G' thing....I find it demeaning like if you sing insincere songs about love in a minor key or triplet melody ladies will flock but I know for a fact ladies don't e.g sistas round my ends. Almost as bad as Kano and 679 thinking if he added some 'ROCK' (lol!) guitar to his music he could cross over cos of course guitar equals the white mainstream LOL....

Also I can't stand 'producers' (or 'loopers' as I call 'em) who have a lack of musical ability making these songs. Jus bring mo' female mc's I say....


errm why is it crossing over to a white audience to have heavyguitar in a track ?
was that what demon was trying to do in that track that sampled the boss tones? don't reckon,
or hip hop and crunk do all the time for years ? that tune is decent anyway.


as for women singers singing insincere songs about love, i think the tracks and melodies have been alot tougher on the better tracks, that one on the b side of warriors by alias and that p jam tune with chardonay.
tough as fuck.
as for terrah and shola fucking hell he is way ahead of anyone there.
 

Diggedy Derek

Stray Dog
Although I didn't originally like Typical Me, I like quite a lot of guitars on grime, and I think there's going to be a lot more. On at least one occasion, I've heard MCs on pirate bigging up "the rock crew", meaning precisely those into rock music. For some reason, rock isn't neccesarily seen as something that urban music forms an opposition to.
 

Woebot

Well-known member
has anyone heard anything that target has done with this new bird? he's a whole lp in the can. i heard something the other day and it reminded me of naomi daniel's "stars" (remeber that old carl craig planet e tune) or "wrap me in its arms". target's beats are SO transmat.

maybe there are good things which will come out of it. certainly terrah d hasnt put a foot wrong yet, BUT i see lesser producers really fucking it up.
 

Pearsall

Prodigal Son
the 16 year-old? On a Rinse set a couple weeks back he mentioned some new sixteen year-old singer named Doolittle iirc.
 

jeffthedeaf

Active member
The whole RnG concept (apart from the awful name, it sounds like its just begging America) is good, it shows a maturity within the scene that recognises its potential for outward expansion. It can't all be angry young black guys screaming over a couple of pots and pans for ever can it?

One thing I will say is the level of song writing will have to improve considerably...the majority of producers are used to only producing one type of bass-heavy track, and hence are detached from the old garage era where there are several years experience in this genre. There have been a couple of successes - I think Terrah's cut with Shola, "Without You" is brilliant, as is the flipside of Warriors as someone mentioned earlier, and as for unreleased material, Scandalous Unlimited's "My Life" is superb, the most original track I've heard in grime to date.
 

bassnation

the abyss
Blackdown said:
grime in it's "pure" pirate state will never cross over. it's so angry it would either never be mass marketed to people or never get mainstream on its own...

that didn't work with punk, or numerous other scenes "so underground they would never cross over". the music industry, as reynolds says in his latest tome, can absorb and commodify pretty much anything, "no matter how noxious".

besides, if it brings a little less self-aggrandising macho attitude to the scene then surely its all good. otherwise its just music for boys and that gets dull very quickly. i'm not into voyeurism of street life for my own entertainment, the kind of thrill that some people from comfortable backgrounds get from the gun talk a little bit prurient to be honest. surely if the music is that revolutionary, it should be accessible to as many people as possible and not just those who want to hear hardcore spitting all the time.
 
mms said:
errm why is it crossing over to a white audience to have heavyguitar in a track ?
was that what demon was trying to do in that track that sampled the boss tones? don't reckon,
or hip hop and crunk do all the time for years ? that tune is decent anyway.


as for women singers singing insincere songs about love, i think the tracks and melodies have been alot tougher on the better tracks, that one on the b side of warriors by alias and that p jam tune with chardonay.
tough as fuck.
as for terrah and shola fucking hell he is way ahead of anyone there.


please read my reply - I put lol round my point about guitars because I find it stupid that Kano and most importantly 679 would think that if they did that they could make him cross over....

that deftones sampling track is purely creative and I think you can hear that sincerity from the way demon and bruza spit on that track....I could easily be wrong though....

also tough yes but actually good?!?!? imo not at all....'loopers' making BEATS for singers?!? I can't STAND it....Terrah is an exception though lol.............
 

mms

sometimes
Tactics said:
please read my reply - I put lol round my point about guitars because I find it stupid that Kano and most importantly 679 would think that if they did that they could make him cross over....

that deftones sampling track is purely creative and I think you can hear that sincerity from the way demon and bruza spit on that track....I could easily be wrong though.....


not sure about kano putting guitar in his records to 'cross over', but i'm sure it was a creative decision, it sounds right and fits the mood of the song same as on that demon track, i hear no difference, guitar is all over david banners lp and over the most aggro track on 'crunk juice'.

Anyway i can't make a judgement about kanos use of guitar like that till i hear it from the mouth of the great horse. innit.

[/QUOTE]also tough yes but actually good?!?!? imo not at all....'loopers' making BEATS for singers?!? I can't STAND it....Terrah is an exception though lol.............[/QUOTE]

i gave two examples, great records i personally prefer to alot of the mc grime at the mo, desperate for more and i'm sure there are more like that.
i said tough cos you were dismissing the female led tracks as being some kind of alternate gooey girly fluffy bunnies stuff and that just isn't the case, the tracks and vocals are alluring and strong with a sensuality that is missing in grime.

anyway, nothing worse than a sausage party.
 
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gumdrops

Well-known member
Blackdown said:
if loads of strong female R&G artists emerge, i'm in it. but if it's loads of token birds bolted onto the latest grime-lite beat and thrust into a bait video, count me out.

depends on what you mean by strong female artists? R&B doesnt exactly allow for strong femme artistes, and im not sure thats what R&B and by extension R&G is about. R&B is all about singers for the most part. their material is often penned by others. i cant see R&B allowing for any artists like erykah badu or jill scott in its ranks, not even a nicolette for that matter.
 

Blackdown

nexKeysound
i mean "strong" as in has her own identity and is likely to have her own second single, ie Brandy not "that bird who sang over Jameson's 'True' (or whoever)". Anyway it was point about the ugly A&R mechnics of making daytime radio-friendly records, not about the relative empowerment of r&b singers.
 
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