PDA

View Full Version : The Dissensus Hardcore Poll Is Now Open



sadmanbarty
16-08-2016, 09:29 AM
Rush your fucking bollocks off!!!!!!!!

Dissensus is choosing and ranking its favourite UK hardcore tracks.

Submit your ballots to me, Sadmanbarty, over private message or at sadmanbarty@gmail.com. All are welcome and encouraged to do so.

Ballots should be in for Friday October 7th. If some come in over that weekend they may still be counted (though they may not).

Ballots should be between 10 and 100 tracks (no more). Rank them as specifically as you can.

Make sure you’re entering the correct mix of the track you are voting for.

Tracks from 1994 onwards will likely be disqualified.

Vote with your heart, not for what would be clever, cool or tactical.

Post long lists on this thread, but don’t post any rankings.

sadmanbarty
16-08-2016, 09:30 AM
To set the mood:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQP8WGs4tPw

droid
16-08-2016, 09:54 AM
#1


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfMlQJ5SeFo

droid
16-08-2016, 09:55 AM
What are we looking at here btw? 90-93?

luka
16-08-2016, 10:12 AM
I guess though. Although mine would be almost all '91-'92 I think

luka
16-08-2016, 10:12 AM
Nick O.D - Have You Got Any More Spam: http://youtu.be/HShQwARlcVk

luka
16-08-2016, 10:31 AM
The House Crew - Keep The Fire Burning
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmESIbZMuG4&index=746&list=PLEjglVucba1iA2xS94vVwveu9Dt1EQyDD

droid
16-08-2016, 10:55 AM
Thinking about stuff like this - and earlier.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OamwmcGuP0A

luka
16-08-2016, 11:20 AM
yeah thats a really good one. production house were just so incredible. early sub base/boogie times and moving shadow and formation, blackmarket records, xl... all that lot. thats my hardcore. but for others its slammin vinyl, rising high, or whatever, dpends what part of the country you grew up in. for a lot of people hardcore is 4 to the floor no breakbeats....

droid
16-08-2016, 11:34 AM
There's a distinction to be made between hardcore (breakbeats, 91 on) and old skool (4 to the floor 88/9+), with load so of grey areas and overlaps in-between, like:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8VY5dxq5CU

droid
16-08-2016, 11:35 AM
But this is definitely old skool:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqZwbuwPFiE

droid
16-08-2016, 11:38 AM
And then you have this - from 89


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6bY8vCtOK0

droid
16-08-2016, 11:42 AM
It was the crucible. The most open and pluralist dance music scene (possibly ANY music scene?) ever with dozens of coexisting major strains and hundreds of minor ones. Messy by its very nature and resistant to taxonomy.

droid
16-08-2016, 11:44 AM
There's a great line from the SUAD bit in that 'pump up the volume' documentary that pretty much sums it all up.

"You should interview the drugs".

luka
16-08-2016, 12:12 PM
Project One - Smoking
Dee Patten - Who's The Bad Man
Zero B - Lock Up
Acen - Close Your Eyes (XXX Mix) /trip to moon 1,2,3/The Life And Crimes Of A Ruffneck
The Brothers Grimm - Exodus (The Lion Awakes)
Noise Factory - Can U Feel The Rush/Breakage #4 - I bring you the future
Neuromancer pennywise
liquid - Sweet Harmony
Rachel Wallace-I Feel This Way(M&M Beefed Up Mix)
The House Crew- Euphoria/We Are Hardcore/keep the fire burning
2 Bad Mice - Hold It Down
Blame - Music Takes You (2 Bad Mice Remix)
Blapps Posse - Bus' It (Its Time To Get Bzy) (The Final Message)
I Need Your Love (like the sunshine) - N.R.G. Original Mix 1992
criminal Minds - Baptised By Dub/virtual reality
Lewi Cifer - Heat
Andy C - Never Felt This Way
DJ Red Alert & Mike Slammer... just wanna hold u tight
Ellis Dee & DJ Swanee - Ruffneck Bizznizz
4 Hero - Cooking Up Yah Brain /mr kirks nightmare
phuture Assassins - Roots 'N' Future (Make Dem Know Mix)
BAD GIRL -bad girl
sonz of a loop da loop era - bust that groove
Bodysnatch - Euphony (Just 4 U London)
MI 7 - Rockin Down Tha House
nick O.D. - Let Your Mind Be Free/spam/ruff dub
One tribe ft Gem - What Have You Done (Is This All) (Original Version)
Jonny L - Hurt You So.
R.A.W. - Roughneck Sister Sue
Rum & Black - Wicked
Satin Storm - Think i'm going out of my head/Kick Up A Sound Boy
2 Bad Mice - Waremouse/bombscare/hold it down
BASS CONSTRUCTION CHECK HOW WE JAM
The Scientist - The Bee/the excorcist
3 Rude Bwoy - Red Eye Dub
Isotonik - Different Strokes
sl2 ragga tip/DJs Take Control /way in my brain
DJ Seduction - You & Me
Hackney Hardcore - Dancehall Dangerous
The Brothers Grimm - Exodus (The Lion Awakes)
F X U - The Scheme
Bug Khan And The Plastic Jam - Made In Two Minutes
zero b lock up
Timebase - Unity
One Tribe feat Gem - What Have You Done
Genaside II - Sirens Of Acre Lane
Phuture Assassins - African Sanctus
a sides j-done it again
The Prodigy - Your Love -
M.A.N.I.C. - I'm Coming Hardcore
Friends Of Matthew Out There Raw Mix
DMS - Love Overdose remix
sonz of a loop da loop era-Far Out/Let Your Mind Be Free/Futher Out (Da Far Out Remix)/Freedomism/Bust That Groove
Tango & Ratty - Final Conflict
Bass Selective - Blow Out Part II
Jem 77 - Never felt this way
Kicksquad - Soundclash
Timelapse - Sued For A Sample
DJ Rap & Voyager - Divine Rhythm
4-MEGA - DROP THIS
kicks like a mule-the bouncer/Number One
suad-ravin im ravin
D-FORCE - Orginal Bad Boy
Doc Scott NHS Disco mix /surgery
DJ Seduction - You & Me
3 Rude Bwoy - The Herb
DMS - Exterminate
Audioquest Productions - Love The Ardcore
a guy called gerald - 28 gun bad boy
lennie de ice-we are ie
Austin - I Get High/unity in dub
Q Bass - Dancing People
Austin "Unity In Dub"
Urban Shakedown feat. Micky Finn - "Some Justice' /do it now
Rufige Cru - Darkrider
nightmares on wax-aftermath
dj trax-we rock the mosty
fxu-the scheme
Jungle House Crew - King Of The Jungle (Bamboo Mix)
Manix - Special Request/feel real good/hardcore junglism

droid
16-08-2016, 12:20 PM
WOAH THERE! How could you forget this?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvjQOO892D8

:D

luka
16-08-2016, 12:24 PM
dont remember hearing that before to be honest. who used sleng teng first them or sl2?

luka
16-08-2016, 12:25 PM
i know ive forgotten some things though, just not sure exactly what

droid
16-08-2016, 12:27 PM
Why would you? its awful, wrong in pretty much every way. Its a 'not quite' sleng teng as well...

sadmanbarty
16-08-2016, 12:39 PM
These are guidelines rather than rules, so don't fret too much.

1) 1990-93 is about right. There may be a handful of obscurities from 89 that are also acceptable.

2) Tracks should be from the UK, with at least some kind of nod to breakbeats, ragga vox or bleeps.

For example this is 4 to the floor, but there's a faint breakbeat in the background:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UocAW_HNzTY

3) Try to avoid tracks that are completely derivative of techno from Europe and the States.

4) I called the poll hardcore so as to not scare off non-bleep fans. Any early-90's nuum is acceptable; bleep, ragga techno and proto-hardcore are all fine.

sadmanbarty
16-08-2016, 12:41 PM
A lot of these are 93

<iframe width="100%" height="450" scrolling="no" frameborder="no" src="https://w.soundcloud.com/player/?url=https%3A//api.soundcloud.com/tracks/73048737&amp;auto_play=false&amp;hide_related=false&amp;show_c omments=true&amp;show_user=true&amp;show_reposts=false&amp;vis ual=true"></iframe>

luka
16-08-2016, 12:42 PM
Its a 'not quite' sleng teng as well

no its not but it basically is and the resemblence is hardly likely to be a coincidence

droid
16-08-2016, 12:50 PM
no its not but it basically is and the resemblence is hardly likely to be a coincidence

Yeah - they were definitely trying for sleng teng, no question. Dont think they were first.

sadmanbarty
16-08-2016, 12:52 PM
Hip hop breaks, techno synth arpeggios, dub delay and ragga vocals.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zoi5xlYDJKo

sadmanbarty
16-08-2016, 12:56 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dO4-htxz8j8

droid
16-08-2016, 01:42 PM
2) Tracks should be from the UK, with at least some kind of nod to breakbeats, ragga vox or bleeps.

Europe cannot be denied.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiFTdIUXXlc

droid
16-08-2016, 01:43 PM
This should just be tunes that were played at raves TBH.

sadmanbarty
16-08-2016, 02:01 PM
This should just be tunes that were played at raves TBH.

They're only guidelines.

Given people's tastes on dissensus, I imagine that the UK stuff (and particularly breakbeat hardcore) is going to dominate the results anyway.

Corpsey
16-08-2016, 02:03 PM
Allow me to be the bearer of good cheese:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_XU6UT5oL0

YOUR LOVE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4_t6IwfaDY

HURT U SO

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RW4YfSxBeAw

SWEET HARMONY

J Rolla again will be a good source for some recommendations: http://www.mixcrate.com/jamesrolla/deep-dark-hardcore-mix-1992-188897

firefinga
16-08-2016, 02:45 PM
IMO - and as written already in the jungle poll thread - 1993 was feeling and sounding very "jungle-y" (starting in autumn/fall '92 already actually), while you could make a case 1991 and 1992 still sounding much more alike (in general terms) as just a few months on. But then, even in 1993 breakbeat/early jungle you had 4 to the floor a lot still.

Anyways, If I cast a ballot, I'd do one for 1991/92 and a seperate one for 93.

But yeah, those big rave tunes (predominately)from Belgium (R&S label) got played by everyone in 91.

luka
16-08-2016, 02:49 PM
Yeah sure but you wont cast a ballot you'll embark on some doomed quixotic project to list every tune released in January 1991, and then you'll start on February

sadmanbarty
16-08-2016, 03:10 PM
Here's how I'll be distinguishing between Hardcore and Jungle for 1993 tracks (this doesn't apply for tracks from previous years). A hardcore track will contain one of the following qualities:

- Chipmunk vocals

- Staccato sample riffs

- Italo-house piano

- Mentasm

So for example this track is very Jungly, but the staccato sample riffs at 1.42 mean that I'll count it as Hardcore:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=105&v=4WU0txc2_Lg

luka
16-08-2016, 03:16 PM
C'mon droid wheres your list I put mine up hours ago

luka
16-08-2016, 03:38 PM
craner tells me he is hard at work on hes poll

droid
16-08-2016, 04:29 PM
Here's how I'll be distinguishing between Hardcore and Jungle for 1993 tracks (this doesn't apply for tracks from previous years). A hardcore track will contain one of the following qualities:

- Chipmunk vocals

- Staccato sample riffs

- Italo-house piano

- Mentasm

So for example this track is very Jungly, but the staccato sample riffs at 1.42 mean that I'll count it as Hardcore:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=105&v=4WU0txc2_Lg

Im facepalming hard here.

droid
16-08-2016, 04:30 PM
C'mon droid wheres your list I put mine up hours ago

Ill have to sit at my writing desk and consider it after perusing a basement full of records and a few thousand DJ sets and YT vids.

sadmanbarty
16-08-2016, 04:30 PM
Im facepalming hard here.

What's the problem?

sadmanbarty
16-08-2016, 04:31 PM
craner tells me he is hard at work on hes poll

Glad to hear it

Benny B
16-08-2016, 04:38 PM
i'd consider joining in on this but i'm so bad at remembering names, and there are so many tunes and styles, i don't think could do it properly. Luka's list looks great and probably contains most things i'd vote for.. I'd definitely be up for a uk garage poll though.

If i did vote, I'd probably put sweet harmony at number 1 for sentimental reasons

droid
16-08-2016, 05:02 PM
What's the problem?

Sorry, didn't mean to be dismissive and I know you're not being prescriptive, but it just seems like a semi arbitrary and potentially problematic set of criteria to me.

droid
16-08-2016, 05:04 PM
Not that I disagree entirely, but by those standards then terminator is hardcore.

droid
16-08-2016, 05:04 PM
Theres a third way...

DARKSIDE.

droid
16-08-2016, 05:05 PM
old skool>hardcore>darkside>jungle is the genealogy.

And basically - you know it when you hear it.

luka
16-08-2016, 05:21 PM
https://www.facebook.com/groups/250868044993382/

"Welcome to Darkside Hardcore 92-94, a group dedicated to the more sinister beats of Hardcore and Jungle.
Post up your pitch black tunes and mixes for the Darkside Kru to enjoy.
Strictly Darkness!
Add your friends who you think would appreciate the group,

WARNING! : Self seeking knob heads will be removed! If all you post up is spam related to yourself and your rave/radio shows without contributing to the group we will fuck you off! (In the nicest possible way)

We hope that collectors of this amazing style of music come across some tunes that have been eluding them for years, or hear something fresh to add to the record bag. Re-posts are Rewinds so please post your favourites. Keep it Darkside...NO SPAM!" - Ralph Anderson (Darkside 92-94 Group Owner)

Also, be sure to join the sister group Hardcore 91-94

craner
16-08-2016, 05:32 PM
No order, a lot of cheese.

Acen Trip to the Moon Part 2
DJ Seduction Hardcore Heaven
Manix Feel Real Good
Manix You Held My Hand
Manix Oblivion (Head in the Clouds)
Manix Alright Wid Me
Manix Never Been to Belgium (Gotta Rush Mix)
2 Bad Mice Bombscare
Krome & Time This Sound is for the Underground
Blame Music Takes You (2 Bad Mice remix)
4 Hero Mr Kirk’s Nightmare
The Prodigy Charlie
The Prodigy Your Love
The Prodigy Everybody in the Place
Sonz of da Loop da Loop Era Far Out
Liquid Sweet Harmony
Top Buzz Living in Darkness 93 Remix
Desired State Dance the Dream
Red Alert & Mike Slammer In Effect
Gem 77 Never Felt This Way
Shades of Rhythm Sweet Sensation
Glide All Right (All Night remix)
M17 Rockin the House
Noise Factory The Fire
Xenophobia Rush in the House
Ratpack Searching for my Rizla
Urban Shakedown Some Justice
Noise Factory I Bring You the Future
Noise Factory Can You Feel the Rush
Phantasy & Gemini Never Try the Hippodrome
Red Alert & Mike Slammer Ganja Man
Noise Factory Breakage
Altern-8 Evapor-8
Zero B Lock Up
Metalheads Kemistry
Rufige Kru Darkrider
Nookie Shinin In the Darkness
Nookie Sound of Music (Original Mix)
SL2 DJs Take Control
SL2 On a Ragga Tip
The House Crew Keep the Fire Burnin
Altern-8 Activ 8
Acen Close Your Eyes
Doc Scott NHS Disco Mix
Johnny L Hurt You So
DJ Excel Just When You Thought It Was Safe
Tango & Ratty Final Conflict
Krome & Time The Slammer
Dance Conspiracy Dub War
Shades of Rhythm Sound of Eden
Bizarre Inc. Playing with Knives
Criminal Minds Baptized by Dub
2 Bad Mice Hold it Down
DJs Unite Volume 1
DJ Edge Compounded
Nueromancer Pennywise

luka
16-08-2016, 05:40 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcnIGa1fnfY

aka the jaws tune, good call craner

sadmanbarty
16-08-2016, 06:09 PM
I'd like people to participate even if they are hardcore 'novices'. If you like you could pick your favourite tracks from other people's long lists and just rank those.

sadmanbarty
16-08-2016, 06:15 PM
By the way, this is poll includes Jungle tracks that predate the 1993-1995 of the Jungle poll. So Terminator, for example, is eligible in this poll, because its from 1992.

firefinga
16-08-2016, 06:31 PM
Here is my ballot for 1991:

4 Hero - Mr Kirks Nightmare
Eon - Spice
Nightmares on Wax - Aftermath
Quazar - The Seven Stars
Scientist, The - The Exorcist
Nomad - I wanna Give You Devotion (Original Mix)
KLF - 3 A.M. Eternal [Extended]
Moby - Go (Woodtick Mix)
A Homeboy A Hippie And A Funki Dredd - Total Confusion (Confusion Mix)
Bizarre Inc - Playing With Knives (Quadrant Mix)
Rebel MC - The Wickedest Sound (Soundclash Mix)
T99 - Anasthasia (Out Of History Mix)
Tuff Little Unit - Join The Future
Zero Zero - A Zeroxed
Hypnotist - Rainbows In The Sky (Original Mix)
N R G - The Terminator
Outlander - Vamp
Second Phase - Mentasm
Tricky Disco - House Fly
LFO - We Are Back
Zero Zero - The Sanity Clause
Messiah - There Is No Law
The Prodigy - Charly
The Scientist - The Bee
Messiah - 20.000 Hardcore Members

sadmanbarty
16-08-2016, 07:05 PM
Here's how I'll be distinguishing between Hardcore and Jungle for 1993 tracks (this doesn't apply for tracks from previous years). A hardcore track will contain one of the following qualities:

- Chipmunk vocals

- Staccato sample riffs

- Italo-house piano

- Mentasm

So for example this track is very Jungly, but the staccato sample riffs at 1.42 mean that I'll count it as Hardcore:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=105&v=4WU0txc2_Lg

Scrap that, you know it when you hear it ("hardcore, you know the score" and all that).

It would be interesting to see how many 1993 hardcore tracks don't fit this criteria.

Corpsey
17-08-2016, 09:44 AM
If i did vote, I'd probably put sweet harmony at number 1 for sentimental reasons

Sentimentality is one of the ace cards of hardcore IMO

Sentimentality meets brutality.

re: LFO, I think I agree with Reynolds in awarding 'Frequencies' the award for best electronic album EVS. Sounds so amazingly modern 25 years later. (Just realised that the 25th anniversary was on the 22nd of July this year!)

luka
17-08-2016, 10:10 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZnanvrPj2I

this is my sentimental pick. makes my cold heart melt.

droid
17-08-2016, 11:32 AM
Badly produced Lawyer-bait, but cant help but love it


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7r5e_SuO2RI

droid
17-08-2016, 11:33 AM
lol, this cannot be forsaken:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNme6IQJcpw

luka
17-08-2016, 11:38 AM
Badly produced Lawyer-bait, but cant help but love it


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7r5e_SuO2RI

can imagine that life is a mystery bit sounding so deep and profound while being off your nut on drugs. 'yeah, it is a mystery' spinning out on it

firefinga
17-08-2016, 11:58 AM
some Germans released Off-Nut material back then as well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bQ9VIsJm_k

luka
17-08-2016, 12:19 PM
That's as moronic and as fun as the original louie louie

sadmanbarty
17-08-2016, 12:41 PM
Saw this on a jungle ballot, sounds like hardcore to me. I can put it in my hardcore ballot right?

https://youtu.be/YHHHZ2pOhRU

luka
17-08-2016, 12:55 PM
It may well be the ultimate hardcore tune but given you make the rules dungeonmaster why ask us?

firefinga
17-08-2016, 01:00 PM
Thread needs even a little more cheese:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5adl9m3hew

sadmanbarty
17-08-2016, 01:05 PM
It may well be the ultimate hardcore tune but given you make the rules dungeonmaster why ask us?

You lot are much better informed about this stuff than me.

Corpsey
17-08-2016, 01:20 PM
Saw this on a jungle ballot, sounds like hardcore to me. I can put it in my hardcore ballot right?

https://youtu.be/YHHHZ2pOhRU

Wow not heard this for a while

Does this have a connection with Baby D? I swear this is on one of their albums.

edit: I was right

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=niTutacKPoM

luka
17-08-2016, 01:40 PM
http://www.theransomnote.com/music/gone-rave/gone-to-a-rave-9-production-house-part-1/

Production House.

droid
17-08-2016, 01:43 PM
Baby D was married to the owner of PH, as documented in the jungle poll thread.

Corpsey
17-08-2016, 04:02 PM
Was there a Prodg' / Prod House connection? Only cos they used Baby D's vocal on 'Break and Enter'

Also, was Liam Howlett a break-out genius of hardcore, or did Prodigy just get more props cos they want all rock-y on MFTJGeneration?

luka
17-08-2016, 04:53 PM
They were always with xl

sadmanbarty
17-08-2016, 05:14 PM
There's a version of this, with a vocal on that goes "come with me, time to get ready, take me higher to the party zone" at around 1.35 and elsewhere in the track.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Zeh5H8YunE

On spotify it's called Dub War (Chapter 2), but this is the real chapter 2.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCE5-00z3u0

Anyone know what the one with the vocal is called?

firefinga
18-08-2016, 09:56 AM
My Ballot for '92:

Roughly chronological according to release dates, the oldest at the top:

Top 30 '92:

Kicks Like A Mule - The Bouncer (Original Mix)
Liquid - Sweet Harmony
House Crew, The - We Are Hardcore
Kid Unknown - Nightmare
SL2 - On A Ragga Tip
Shut Up & Dance - The Green Man
Urban Shakedown - Some Justice (Original Mix)
The Criminal Minds - Baptised By Dub
Sonz Of A Loop Da Loop Era - Far Out (Orig Scratchadelic Mix)
Rachel Wallace - Tell Me Why
2 Bad Mice - Hold It Down
Dance Conspiracy - Dub War (Chapter 1)
Foul Play - Ragatere
Johny L - Hurt you so
Barrington Levy feat. Rebel MC - Under Me Sensi
Sonz of a Loop Da Loop Era - Peace n Loveism (4Hero Mix).
Acen Trip II the Moon 1,2,3
Kaotic Chemistry - Drum Trip II
Rufige Cru - Darkrider
Bay B Kane - Ravin' In The Twilight
Egyptian Empire - The Horn Track
Jungle House Crew - Let Me Take You
Urban shakedown - Bass Shake
4 Hero - Journey From The Light
Acen - Close your Eyes (Optikonfusion Mix)
Nino - The Gun
Tek 9 - Del de Go Go
Wot's My Code - Dubplate

luka
18-08-2016, 10:15 AM
Wow what a year eh

baboon2004
18-08-2016, 05:15 PM
ridiculously good. what always strikes me about hardcore is the breadth of the sampling, makes it incredibly diverse and interesting (prince far i for 'baptized in dub', which would be my own #1 pick, as well as cannibalising playing with knives). and the total lack of care for 'good taste', as was said about Jamaican music culture on another thread here.

it's far from a radical tune, but i always loved this one for the unabashed bittersweet melodrama:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdL_PTvtfYE

and looking thru the Production House discogs page, i spotted somewhat of an anomaly at the end of 1991... https://www.discogs.com/label/296-Production-House?sort=year&sort_order=

luka
18-08-2016, 05:41 PM
Lol wtf

baboon2004
18-08-2016, 06:20 PM
yeah i know...it looks like Nino remixed the Levellers under an alias...

firefinga
18-08-2016, 08:12 PM
Wow what a year eh

Yes, great year. But the ball really got rollin' after the summer imo. Had to leave out lots of tunes to trim my list down to 30.

93 will be even tougher regarding those trimming tasks

firefinga
18-08-2016, 08:37 PM
For instance, this one didn't make the cut....

Absolutely great stuff....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d17V7HeiIdE

Corpsey
19-08-2016, 10:39 AM
ridiculously good. what always strikes me about hardcore is the breadth of the sampling, makes it incredibly diverse and interesting (prince far i for 'baptized in dub', which would be my own #1 pick, as well as cannibalising playing with knives). and the total lack of care for 'good taste', as was said about Jamaican music culture on another thread here.


Guess you could say this is why jungle became stultified, ultimately, as it was so reggae/dancehall focused. But then, Bukem and Goldie et al brought jazz and techno influences into it, which for many was pretty much the death-blow as far as jungle goes.

And ultimately you end up with stuff like this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bYDXQfVcRY

Where there seems to be no influence beyond DNB itself.

To me something has really been lost with the rise of soft synths and pristine engineering. You've lost that patchwork quality, that willingness to play around with ideas, that breadth of influences that is found in hardcore. Everything seems remorselessly linear and snapped-to-grid.

luka
19-08-2016, 01:57 PM
Once software took over the grid took over. I actually enjoyed the blatant rigid grid in grime but usually it's a bit of a downer. Everywhere in modern life you see the software. In architecture and music and graphic design especially

baboon2004
19-08-2016, 10:13 PM
Guess you could say this is why jungle became stultified, ultimately, as it was so reggae/dancehall focused. But then, Bukem and Goldie et al brought jazz and techno influences into it, which for many was pretty much the death-blow as far as jungle goes.


I have a blind spot about 90s dancehall, so tons of jungle leaves me a bit cold for that reason. I liked the stuff that reminded me of hardcore I suppose, that didn't fall squarely into either the dancehall or 'serious music' camps

Slothrop
19-08-2016, 11:27 PM
To me something has really been lost with the rise of soft synths and pristine engineering. You've lost that patchwork quality, that willingness to play around with ideas, that breadth of influences that is found in hardcore. Everything seems remorselessly linear and snapped-to-grid.
I'm never sure about the technological determinism thing, particularly as regards software. There's no reason people running Cubase can't turn off snap-to-grid, bung in a load of samples, and resist the temptation to compress and EQ and layer the shit out of everything if they prefer the results they get that way.

Also, a bit of an aside, but I'd guess that for drum and bass the change in what was possible was probably less about the rise of software and more about people having the time / money to assemble a bigger and more capable hardware setup. VST instruments weren't even introduced until 99 for instance...

Corpsey
20-08-2016, 01:38 AM
I'm never sure about the technological determinism thing, particularly as regards software. There's no reason people running Cubase can't turn off snap-to-grid, bung in a load of samples, and resist the temptation to compress and EQ and layer the shit out of everything if they prefer the results they get that way.
...

You're right, but then the question is why DON'T they? I guess cos most people, justifiably enough, want things to sound as good as possible. I'm sure a lot of people see old skool hardcore as being 'lacking' in terms of sonics.

As for linearity of structure, I think it's fascinating that it came to dominate most genres, in European dance music, anyway.

sadmanbarty
20-08-2016, 10:51 AM
Where there seems to be no influence beyond DNB itself.

That's genius.

baboon2004
20-08-2016, 11:42 AM
You're right, but then the question is why DON'T they? I guess cos most people, justifiably enough, want things to sound as good as possible. I'm sure a lot of people see old skool hardcore as being 'lacking' in terms of sonics.


Give someone a high-tech toy to use in the process of creating art, and it's arguably human nature that they will insist upon using it (maybe because people cleave towards being seen as 'professionals' and not clueless amateurs - could be a status thing?). But the opposite idea of restricting possibilities in order to create good art has been around for aeons in all fields.

sadmanbarty
21-08-2016, 09:30 PM
Just letting everyone know I'm away with no internet for a couple of weeks.

If anything comes up, I'll respond when I get back.

Slothrop
22-08-2016, 01:16 PM
Give someone a high-tech toy to use in the process of creating art, and it's arguably human nature that they will insist upon using it (maybe because people cleave towards being seen as 'professionals' and not clueless amateurs - could be a status thing?). But the opposite idea of restricting possibilities in order to create good art has been around for aeons in all fields.

I dunno, this still seems pat and reductionist to me. It's not enough just to have some producers getting carried away with the fact that they can now afford a Virus or a JV-1080 and a whole rack full of EQ and compression, you also need DJs to play their stuff and, ultimately, audiences to respond to it. You need a whole scene full of people saying "yeah, great tune mate, sounds brutal, really futuristic, so much better than all that cheesy breaks and samples shit that people used to do." You've got to have a massive contingent of people who actually prefer stuff this way.

luka
22-08-2016, 01:31 PM
i dont entirely agree with you slothrop. yes you need an audience but to have a scene you need uniformity. you need a largish group of musicians making music that sounds exactly the same. djs dont have total freedom. they can only play whats there and whats there needs to be easily replicable by a large group of people.

luka
22-08-2016, 01:32 PM
the fact is you can hear the grid and the grid is imposed by software. that's not a figment of anyone's imagination.

baboon2004
22-08-2016, 02:03 PM
I dunno, this still seems pat and reductionist to me. It's not enough just to have some producers getting carried away with the fact that they can now afford a Virus or a JV-1080 and a whole rack full of EQ and compression, you also need DJs to play their stuff and, ultimately, audiences to respond to it. You need a whole scene full of people saying "yeah, great tune mate, sounds brutal, really futuristic, so much better than all that cheesy breaks and samples shit that people used to do." You've got to have a massive contingent of people who actually prefer stuff this way.

Audiences tend to follow the lead of artists and DJs, sooner or later. You don't need a massive contingent of people who prefer stuff that way in the beginning, just a small hardcore who are evangelising about it. I think you're underestimating how much audiences are obsessed with music that sounds up to date and 'modern', but also that the process of turning from the 'old' to the 'new' is usually gradual. At a certain stage you get the tipping point where ardkore stopping sounding like the cutting edge to the majority of its audience, and that was directly connected to the new and innovative ways in which artists making jungle were using technology. eg once timestretching started being used extensively, helium vocals went out of fashion/seemed passe to many people.

(Presumably ardkore's point of least credibility coincided with the peak of popularity for 'serious' drum n bass. Then years afterwards it got 'rehabilitated')

droid
22-08-2016, 02:16 PM
the fact is you can hear the grid and the grid is imposed by software. that's not a figment of anyone's imagination.

Technology had a lot to do with changes in the music, but 'the grid' is not the culprit. The vast majority of producers were using grids in Cubase 2.0 on the Atari ST and sequencing software has been (more or less) unchanged ever since.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPXAVGizQSY

droid
22-08-2016, 02:17 PM
The exception was the likes of Aphrodite who used tracker software on the Amiga - Octamed, which looked like this, but he was in the minority:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSj92M0N65M

luka
22-08-2016, 02:20 PM
exaplin why you can hear it now so rigid and linear please

luka
22-08-2016, 02:21 PM
i just know that first time i saw playstation and then fruity software i was like, oh, thats why grime sounds thats way

droid
22-08-2016, 02:22 PM
So basically, the grid has been around since day one. Cubase 2.0 came out in 1990 There was never a mythical 'non-grid' era in UK dance music. If you had an atari or a mac you used cubase, if you had an amiga you used Octamed and the trackers lost the battle early.

luka
22-08-2016, 02:24 PM
fair enough. but still need an explanation

droid
22-08-2016, 02:25 PM
Grime is 'griddy' because it was explicitly built around 8 bar loops... probably fairer to say its 'loopy'. Software had an influence, but the demands of MC's a much greater one.

droid
22-08-2016, 02:28 PM
Jungle went down the tubes because producers became obsessed with production rather than content, there is a feedback loop between DJ's, ravers, punters and producers, and, all things being equal, its easier to get a tune with 4 or 5 noises and one or 2 breaks sounding good than it is to get a tunes with 5 breaks and a dozen samples sounding good.

Things get simplified, speed increases a bit, rinse and repeat.

The essence of consolidation.

luka
22-08-2016, 02:28 PM
i agree mostly which is what i said on the other thread ten minutes ago

Slothrop
22-08-2016, 03:06 PM
Grime is 'griddy' because it was explicitly built around 8 bar loops... probably fairer to say its 'loopy'. Software had an influence, but the demands of MC's a much greater one.
Also, I'm not that much of a grime scholar, but a lot of it seems to deliberately use short, clipped sounds and jerky stop-start rhythms to emphasize the griddyness of the sequencer. Presumably at least partly to make the tunes sound weird and alien next to the live keys and soulful vocals that were all over "proper" house and garage.

Again, the technology has an impact, but people have a choice of whether to work against the limitations of the technology or to make a virtue of them.

firefinga
22-08-2016, 03:22 PM
Jungle went down the tubes because producers became obsessed with production rather than content, there is a feedback loop between DJ's, ravers, punters and producers, and, all things being equal, its easier to get a tune with 4 or 5 noises and one or 2 breaks sounding good than it is to get a tunes with 5 breaks and a dozen samples sounding good.

Things get simplified, speed increases a bit, rinse and repeat.

The essence of consolidation.

Certain Blogs and Forums were discussing the reasons/explanations why mainstream DnB began to sound a certain way to great lengths between 2003 and 2007 and Droid condensed that quite well. Add to the given facts some of the original junglists got older and either left/changed their musical direction. The younger producers might indeed have had a narrower musical background.

Some of the prime movers wanted (or were forced to) stay in the scene/rave circus and followed the sure things rather than taking risks. By the time, sampling of cheesy/catchy melodies from sales-charts hits (as typical for uk Hardcore) became a risky business also.

droid
22-08-2016, 03:28 PM
Certain Blogs and Forums were discussing the reasons/explanations why mainstream DnB began to sound a certain way to great lengths between 2003 and 2007 and Droid condensed that quite well. Add to the given facts some of the original junglists got older and either left/changed their musical direction. The younger producers might indeed have had a narrower musical background.

Some of the prime movers wanted (or were forced to) stay in the scene/rave circus and followed the sure things rather than taking risks. By the time, sampling of cheesy/catchy melodies from sales-charts hits (as typical for uk Hardcore) became a risky business also.

Condensed is an understatement! Slothrop and myself participated in many of those discussions alongside many other disillusioned junglists and it is, of course, more complex, but as a brief guide to the role technology played I think its at least partially accurate.

luka
22-08-2016, 03:37 PM
rhythmically it became impoverished from 1995 and the birth of jump up.

Corpsey
22-08-2016, 04:01 PM
I suppose arguably DNB adapted with MCs in mind too. By the late 90s a lot of tunes were essentially as loopy as hip hop beats, and perfect for Skiba Shabba et al to bibbidy bibbidy over.

Also you can't underestimate the appeal of faster, straighter beats to ravers. A lot of people love that continuous flow of 2+4 snare beats. It's 170bpm techno with more bass.

I think the beats got faster and faster to outmatch the ravers' tolerance for fast beats, the basslines got gnarlier and gnarlier, the MCs got shoutier, the DJs double dropped tunes, triple dropped tunes, teased tunes in, mixed with three decks, etc. And LO! PENDULUM!

droid
22-08-2016, 04:18 PM
Yeah, its all interrelated. Faster BPM means less space for breaks, simpler rhythms, then even faster BPM and so on. Next thing you know its, as you say, techno with breakbeats and the next stop is hard rock cafe.

luka
22-08-2016, 04:21 PM
i remember going world dance in '99 just to do a mate a favour and thinking never ever ever am i going to a d&b night again. it was all about 'the drop' as moronic as any american 'edm' ritual

firefinga
22-08-2016, 04:27 PM
rhythmically it became impoverished from 1995 and the birth of jump up.

Hmmm... Many of the early Metalheadz plates were rhytmically much simpler than most of the other stuff around. But also Good Looking and lots of the Moving Shadow stuff in '95. All the "artcore" / "Intelligent" material (as much as I loved big chunks of that...)

chimpybits
23-08-2016, 02:11 AM
What no love for this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpKYoiEuAXs

Pearsall
23-08-2016, 04:34 AM
can we include happy hardcore or is that strictly verboten? I just did a new 94/95 happycore mix (https://soundcloud.com/sonicrampage/hardcore-summer-bash-2016-pearsalls-old-skool-happy-hardcore-mix), so ...

anyways, here's a quick list from my own collection (thanks Discogs!) that excludes the later stuff. it's mostly '93 as that's my favorite year. This is far from definitive!

007 - Your Love Is All I Need
Acen - Trip II The Moon (The Darkside...)
DJ Hype - Shot In The Dark (Gunshot Mix)
DJ Slam - Looking Into The Light
DJ Red Alert & Mike Slammer - Ganja Man
Doc Scott - Street Knowledge
Electronic Experienced - No. 303
Elevation - Make It Right
Foul Play - Open Your Mind (Tango Remix)
Fourth Dimension - Infection
Grooverider - Sinister (Influence Remix)
Harmony & Xtreme - Love In My Heart
Jim Polo & Neil Vass - Rolling Energy (2 Sinister Remix)
Krome & Time - The Slammer
Nookie - Give A Little Love '94
Nut-E-1 - Underwater Fireworks
Peshay - Warning
Rufige Kru - Darkrider
Skanna - This Way
Tango & Ratty - Tales From The Darkside
Tango & Fallout - Further Intrigue

luka
23-08-2016, 08:58 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=340l_dYt0rs

one i missed. pitch it up cunt

luka
23-08-2016, 10:22 PM
https://www.mixcloud.com/basicrhythm/basic-rhythm-1991-part-2/
mix. via energyflash

firefinga
03-09-2016, 03:13 PM
in no particular order - my top 35 tracks of '93. Over and out. Rougly chronological according to release dates.

Metalheads - Kemistry
Nasty Habits - Here Come the Drumz
Utomica - Rok A Bye
Nookie - Shining In Da Darkness
Johnny Jungle - Johnny
Q-Project - Champion Sound
BizzyB and Peshay - Merder Style
D.O.P.E. - When I Was young (DannyBreaks Mix)
DJ Hype - Weird energy (Hell's Bells Mix)
Omni Trio - Feel Good
DJ Solo - Darkage
Foul Play - Finest Illusion (Original Mix) = Illegal mix
Sonz Of A Loop Da Loop Era - Style Warz
Bizzy B - Slow Jam
FBD Project - The Core
Hyper On Experience - Thunder Grip
Foul Play - Open Your Mind
DJ Crystl - The Dark Crystl
Rufige Cru - Ghosts Of My Life
Sound Of The Future - Fearless Wonder
4 Horsemen Of The Apocalypse - Drowning In Her
The Invisible Man - The End (Alternative Mix)
Ed Rush - Bludclot Artattack
DJ Gwange - Vinyl Paradise
Swift and Zinc - Other Side of the Moon
Tango and Ratty - The Killer
Peshay - Gangster
Omni Trio - Renegade snares
From The Man Like Pennywise - Suspension Of Disbelieve
Doc Scott - Rage
DJ Crystl - Warpdrive
Jungle Buddha - Drug Me
Hyper On Experience - Monarch Of The Glen
Bounty Killaz - Voices
Uncle 22 - 6 Million Ways To Die (DJ Hype Remix)

sadmanbarty
04-09-2016, 12:30 PM
Long List (part 1, probably)

DMS- Love Overdose (The Haps Mix)

The House Crew- Keep The Fire Burning (Steel Works Remix)

Euphoria (Ninoís Dream Remix)

D- Force- Original Bad Boy

Krome & Time- This Sound Is For The Underground

Payback- Dope

Criminal Minds VS D.O.T- Drums of Doom
Drums of Doom (Sound Systems At Dawn)


Princess of the Posse- Armed and Dangerous

The Criminal Minds- Mind Bombing
Comminí It To Ya (Autonomy Theme)

The Prodigy- Charly (Alley Cat Mix)
Out of Space
Fire (Sunrise Version)

Liquid- Sweet Harmony

SL2- DJís Take Control
On A Ragga Tip
Way In My Brain

Nu Matic- All Over Me-
In A Dream
Hard Times

Dance Conspiracy- Dub War (Chapter One)
Dub War (Chapter Three)
Dub War (Chapter Four)
Dub War (Chapter Five)

Nookie- Give A Little Love

Doc Scott- N.H.S (Disco Remix)

4 Mega- Drop This

N Joi- Jah Heaven

Rhythm Quest- Closer To All Your Dreams (Hybrid Mix)
Wishdokta- The Accused (Possesed By The Devil Mix)
Wasted (Out of Skins Mix)
Joy (No Bogle Mix)

Egyptian Empire- The Horn Track

Code 071- A London Sumtiní

USI- King of Dubrock

Dream Frequency- Take Me (Anthem Mix)
Free My Mind

Awesome 3- Donít Go (Kicks Like A Mule)

Blame- Music Takes You
Music Takes You (Kaotic Chemistry Remix)

2 Bad Mice- Bomb Scare

Suspicious Minds- Some Harmony (Hard Mix)
Sittin Low (Bass Trip Mix)

Timelapse- Sunshine Choir

Kev Bird- This Is A Trip

Lemon D- Flashback

Insomnia- Nostalgia

Jonny L- Hurt You So (S&M Mix)

Urban Shakedown- Some Justice

T.H.C- Love My Dub

Origination- Breakdown

Dub Two- Badman (Tuffness Mix)

Menace Makes 3- Do You Feel What Iím Feeling

Under D Influence- Fatty Boom

Noise Factory- Urban Music

Urban Distress- La Bamba

Noise Factory- Warning (Dub Mix)

sadmanbarty
16-09-2016, 10:48 AM
Previously I said ballots should be between 30-100 tracks. I've changed that to 10-100 tracks.

As I said before, even if you don't know much about hardcore I'd like you to vote; the more ballots there are, the better the results.

sadmanbarty
26-09-2016, 09:39 AM
TWO WEEKS LEFT

sadmanbarty
03-10-2016, 09:50 AM
Friday Deadline!!!

Don't sit this one out

sadmanbarty
09-10-2016, 08:40 PM
Results

Only two ballots were ranked, so I had to go by frequency, which didn't yield a very nuanced ranking.

Appeared in 3 ballots:

House Crew- Euphoria (Ninoís Dream)

Acen- Trip II the Moon part 2

Nightmares On Wax- Aftermath

Foul Play- Finest Illusion

Krome Time- Slammer

Edge- Compounded

Sonz of da loop era- bust that groove

Bizzaree Inc- Playing with knives

House Crew- Keep the fire burning

Krome and Time- This Sound if for the underground

Jem 77- Never Felt This Way

Zero B- Lock Up

DJ Solo- Darkage

Egyptian Empire- Horn Track

4 mega- drop this

Sonz of da loop era-far out

Noise factory- I bring you the future

Nookie- Sound of Music

Sl2 djís take control

Doc Scott- NHS (disco mix)

Criminal minds- baptized by dub

--------------------------

Appeared in 4 ballots:

Blame- Music Takes You (2 Bad Mice Mix)

Prodigy- Charly

Acen- Close Your Eyes

Manix- Feel Real Goo

2 bad mice- Hold it down

Liquid- Sweet Harmony

Dance Conspiracy- Dub War chapter

-----------

Appeared in 5 ballots:

Urban Shakedown- Some Justice

2 Bad Mice- Bomb Scare

SL2- On a ragga tip

Jonny L- Hurt You So

droid
21-10-2016, 02:38 PM
Completely blanked on this and pulled a Padraig. Sorry.

sadmanbarty
21-10-2016, 05:00 PM
Completely blanked on this and pulled a Padraig. Sorry.

No worries.

firefinga
22-10-2016, 08:56 AM
Completely blanked on this and pulled a Padraig. Sorry.

What does "To pull a Padraig" mean? I stumbled across a forum member named "Padraig" here while reading a couple of old threads - so my guess is, it got something to do with him (her)?

padraig (u.s.)
23-10-2016, 07:57 PM
Completely blanked on this and pulled a Padraig. Sorry.

Harsh, dude. Fair, but harsh. What can I say, full-time school and full-time work doesn't leave as much leisure time as I might like to revisit the world of breakbeats, chipmunk vocals, mentasms and euphoric piano breakdowns. Glad to have helped coin a phrase, tho!

firefinga
23-10-2016, 10:22 PM
Ah riddle solved, then...

droid
24-10-2016, 12:29 PM
There was also THE OTHER Padraig... but we dont talk about the war.

luka
05-11-2016, 02:20 PM
apologies to anyone who already knew this but i just stumbled on the we are ie sample!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PerfaQC5aI

firefinga
06-01-2017, 09:40 PM
Late '93 release by Alec Empire on the German force Inc label - somewhat hardcore-ish

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1Ph_9wm8kA&spfreload=10

firefinga
22-09-2017, 08:52 PM
Damn, I only stumbled across this recently....

What a tune!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9enumCIhik8