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luka
22-08-2016, 10:11 AM
This has been my way of looking at it, particularly since I did some cursory research into the English sound system history and culture.

I said right from the start that grime was something new in that English kids of African descent played a prominent part. In that sense it was the end of one strand of history and the beginning of another.

john eden
22-08-2016, 12:09 PM
I think that's a better way of looking at it than most. Except ska, rocksteady, reggae etc don't count as part of the 'nuum?

So it's a truncated history which only really starts at a particular point.

The cultural history of west indian immigration would include lots of other things (Bus strikes, anti-racism, food, fiction, film, etc).

And I think the 'nuum is also about West Indian immigration and its interplay/assimilation with existing English/British culture. Like, it becomes something else - a hybrid.

luka
22-08-2016, 12:20 PM
And I think the 'nuum is also about West Indian immigration and its interplay/assimilation with existing English/British culture. Like, it becomes something else - a hybrid.

of course. thats the crux of my viewpoint.

luka
22-08-2016, 12:26 PM
so it doesnt include forms which are west indian. it begins at the point at which something becomes identifyiably both west indian and english and it stops at grime which is also roughly around the time west indians have become a comparatively priveleged group,(enlgish speaking, christian, well established, represented on eastenders etc) as opposed to, say, somalians.

luka
22-08-2016, 12:35 PM
The cultural history of west indian immigration would include lots of other things (Bus strikes, anti-racism, food, fiction, film, etc).

this too goes without saying. perhaps it would be better to say, a history.

luka
22-08-2016, 01:19 PM
It's a way of thinking about what it is, why it is, why it starts and ends when it starts and ends, why it's geographical strongholds were where they were etc etc

Corpsey
22-08-2016, 01:32 PM
What African influences were there in grime?

I listened to the Geeneus RA interview recently and he was saying that they created grime accidentally, because they were trying and failing to make garage.

luka
22-08-2016, 01:34 PM
i never said there were african influences in grime. i think thats too simplistic a way of looking at things. also wiley was perfectly adept at making garage so i dont buy that line of gs

luka
22-08-2016, 01:37 PM
i mean, its demonstrably bollocks.

Pearsall
22-08-2016, 01:40 PM
What African influences were there in grime?

I listened to the Geeneus RA interview recently and he was saying that they created grime accidentally, because they were trying and failing to make garage.

I think Luka means that grime was the first time that there were so many African British guys at the forefront of the music (Dizzee, JME, Skepta, Lethal B, Ruff Skwad, etc). I skipped UKG because it wasn't my thing, but in jungle/dnb I am pretty certain that almost all of the black British guys involved were from West Indian backgrounds, Mampi Swift is the only one I can think of otherwise (his parents are from Ghana).

luka
22-08-2016, 01:40 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmzv2iOqgXY
you already had these type of tunes which is what grime was building off. no one was trying to sound like dem 2 at that point and the mcs already were already going in a different direction and wanting a blanker canvas to work on.

luka
22-08-2016, 01:41 PM
I think Luka means that grime was the first time that there were so many African kids at the forefront of the music (Dizzee, JME, Skepta, Lethal B, Ruff Skwad, etc). I skipped UKG because it wasn't my thing, but in jungle/dnb I am pretty certain that almost all of the black British guys involved were from West Indian backgrounds, Mampi Swift is the only one I can think of otherwise (his parents are from Ghana).

exactly. im talking demographics not ethnomusicology.

luka
22-08-2016, 01:42 PM
not going to start talking about ancient african bongo patterns. my names not zhao.

john eden
22-08-2016, 02:39 PM
LOL.

Yeah that's all good, Luka. So the 'nuum is a particular hybrid (UK/JA) which then starts to collapse when other ingredients come into the mix.

Mind you, it excludes other JA/UK hybrids, like Two Tone and some of the postpunk stuff... :D

luka
22-08-2016, 02:42 PM
it excludes stuff i dont like thats true. its like any history. it clarifies by excluding and falsifying. like mcluhans reading of history through technological innovation or whatever. its not true but its not untrue either.

droid
22-08-2016, 02:45 PM
But this is the mirror image of Woebots anti-reggae theory of jungle. You just can't ignore the American influences - house music, and to a lesser extent, hip hop, techno.

luka
22-08-2016, 02:46 PM
i feel intuitively that africans coming to outnumber west indians in the uk was a fairly signigicant development and had fairly far reaching consequences.

luka
22-08-2016, 02:46 PM
But this is the mirror image of Woebots anti-reggae theory of jungle. You just can't ignore the American influences - house music, and to a lesser extent, hip hop, techno.

i dont want to ignore them but there were no african americans making jungle music, or garage or anything else

luka
22-08-2016, 02:48 PM
so those influences are important to the extent to which they were picked up on and assimiliated by uk west indians (and their peers of other ethnicities of course)

luka
22-08-2016, 02:51 PM
remember this is not enthnomusicology im talking about. its more about demographics and identity.

luka
22-08-2016, 03:08 PM
its also to do with what people of other ethnicites find in/project onto black, specifically west indian culture. why it becomes a kind of meeting place/common ground for hype, nicky blackmarket, uk apache, smurf, darren jay etc etc

droid
22-08-2016, 03:14 PM
Sure, but if influence is normally a gentle lapping of waves onto a beach, then house + ecstasy was a tsunami crashing into a coastline and drastically reshaping the landscape.

There was less assimilation and more being swept along in a churning torrent of phenomena.

luka
22-08-2016, 03:18 PM
i dunno droid, thats well before my time and yours. maybe it was. i have a similar view of the 60s. that it was about the eruption of black culture into the mainstream. but you could also ascribe the 60s more to drugs than black culture. thats what i mean about how history works.

luka
22-08-2016, 03:38 PM
in case its not obvious these are just talking points, for a discussion group, its not a dissertation im handing in to be marked. just the product of intuition, observation and speculation. its your job to help flesh it out.

droid
22-08-2016, 03:48 PM
4/10. Needs more work.

:D

luka
22-08-2016, 04:07 PM
better than what you could do though

droid
22-08-2016, 04:21 PM
Hey! I can repackage Kodwo as well as anyone else here.

luka
22-08-2016, 04:22 PM
its pretty much the antithesis of kodwo. abuse me by all means but do it accurately

droid
22-08-2016, 04:45 PM
Its a subset of Black Atlanticism surely?

luka
22-08-2016, 04:50 PM
thats gilroy

droid
22-08-2016, 05:00 PM
True. Think I first encountered Gilroy via 'Further Considerations on Afrofuturism'.

sadmanbarty
02-09-2016, 05:10 PM
Fast chat was a invented in the UK (right?), and appears throughout the 'nuum.

luka
02-09-2016, 05:13 PM
this is pretty much uncontroversial. a little bit of quibbling aside.

john eden
02-09-2016, 08:13 PM
Fast chat was a invented in the UK (right?), and appears throughout the 'nuum.

Wasn't fast chat nicked off Brigadier Jerry and that lot?

But uk fast chat did take it to new levels of dexterity.

rubberdingyrapids
05-09-2016, 03:10 PM
there was a good docu on 6 music about carribean music last weekend. youd expect it to not be very interesting as gemma cairney was presenting it but it was actually very interesting.

i like that people are still discussing the ownership of fast chat.