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luka
23-08-2016, 09:55 PM
vims people.
http://www.breitbart.com/tech/2016/03/29/an-establishment-conservatives-guide-to-the-alt-right/
'The alt-right’s intellectuals would also argue that culture is inseparable from race. The alt-right believe that some degree of separation between peoples is necessary for a culture to be preserved. A Mosque next to an English street full of houses bearing the flag of St. George, according to alt-righters, is neither an English street nor a Muslim street — separation is necessary for distinctiveness.

Some alt-righters make a more subtle argument. They say that when different groups are brought together, the common culture starts to appeal to the lowest common denominator. Instead of mosques or English houses, you get atheism and stucco.'

Corpsey
24-08-2016, 09:54 AM
There are some left-leaning types (such as myself) who tend to accord a great deal of respect to the native cultures of other countries, while simultaneously scoffing at the notion that there is an 'English culture' that should, or indeed even CAN, be defended against dilution or destruction. I guess there's some sort of double standard operating there.

I've been reading part one of Peter Ackroyd's history of England and it really gets across how phony the notion of a 'native' English race is. First it was people from Iberia, then it was the Romans, then it was the Saxons, then it was the Danish, and so on.

This is interesting, though, Luka, I'll read when I get the chance.

I'm intrigued by the notion of traditional conservatives acting against the neo-liberal right who, as this article says, might happily bulldoze a historical building to build a strip mall, if it made them more money.

Mr. Tea
24-08-2016, 10:10 AM
I've been reading part one of Peter Ackroyd's history of England and it really gets across how phony the notion of a 'native' English race is. First it was people from Iberia, then it was the Romans, then it was the Saxons, then it was the Danish, and so on.


Right, but a race is not the same thing as a nation*. There's been a pretty well defined concept of England as a unitary political, legal and cultural entity for over a thousand years - compare that to some other European countries (Italy, Germany...countries hardly innocent to the impulse of nationalism!) that came into being as nation-states less than 150 years ago (or even, what, 26 years ago in Germany's case, if you count the division of the country during the Cold War). And new countries pop into existence all the time.

True, there are still some dolts who may insist that the English are primarily descended from Anglo-Saxons and there are Welsh, Scottish and Irish nationalists who cling to the equally fantastical notion that they descend from a well defined "Celtic" race - but I hope most people these days are aware that modern genetics and archaeology paints a vastly more subtle and ambiguous picture than this.

*Though that's not to say some countries don't have a far greater degree of ethnic homogeneity than others, in both the genetic and cultural senses - Japan springs to mind.

Mr. Tea
24-08-2016, 10:34 AM
Anyone else wondering what Pepe the Frog is doing in the header cartoon?!

Corpsey
24-08-2016, 11:17 AM
Like the alt-right, the frog's a 4chan thing.

Mr. Tea
24-08-2016, 11:26 AM
Like the alt-right, the frog's a 4chan thing.

Ah yeah, I got that when I read further down.

Nick Land's name keeps cropping up in this context. Wasn't he a darling of the lefty academic blogosphere in the last decade? I seem to recall him being quoted favourably by people (K-punk, Gek-opel...) who presumably would rather have died than be thought of as any kind of Rightist or reactionary, "alt" or otherwise.

luka
24-08-2016, 11:37 AM
nick land taught various people at warwick, k punk, kode 9, kodwo eshun. he was a bataille freak and speed addict and supposedly very charismatic. then he started fetishing capitalism and moved to china, inhuman data flows or something... you can track s0me of this in the comment threads at hyperstition. his turn rightwards is what intitally influeunced vimothys conversion to the right.

luka
24-08-2016, 11:40 AM
http://hyperstition.abstractdynamics.org/

reza, the iranian who wrote cyclonopedia was a contributor here too

Mr. Tea
24-08-2016, 11:43 AM
nick land taught various people at warwick, k punk, kode 9, kodwo eshun. he was a bataille freak and speed addict...

Yeah I remember you talking about the time you met him. "Self-aggrandising amphetamine nerd" was the phrase that stuck in my head.

luka
24-08-2016, 11:49 AM
i dont think i did meet him, although i remember that phrase now you mention it. pretty funny.

luka
24-08-2016, 11:50 AM
hes got a guru complex, has a need for acolytes. i dont disapprove of that particualry, just if i was him id want i better grade of disciple.

droid
24-08-2016, 04:40 PM
https://youtu.be/C7aG-VQYGhA

Benny B
25-08-2016, 12:23 AM
vims people.
http://www.breitbart.com/tech/2016/03/29/an-establishment-conservatives-guide-to-the-alt-right/


lol @ this jack donovan guy.

THE WAY OF MEN



What is masculinity?

When someone tells a man to be a man, they mean that there is a way to be a man. A man is not just a thing to be–it is also a way to be, a path to follow and a way to walk.

People are talking about “the end of men,” “the decline of males,” and the so-called “crisis of masculinity.” There are many diagnoses for the troubles men face today, but the chattering class is short on solutions. They refuse to deal honestly with the differences between men and women, and fail to entertain the possibility that their vision of the future offers little of value to average males.

The Way of Men answers the question “What is masculinity?”

Donovan concludes that The Way of Men is the way of the primal survival gang. The simple, amoral, tactical virtues of the gang define our most basic conception of manliness. The “crisis of masculinity” is really a timeless push-and-pull between masculinity and civilization. The world has changed more than men have, and the security and luxury of modernity have put us conflict with our own natures. The path back to honor for men may lead through a new dark age.

http://www.jack-donovan.com/axis/books/the-way-of-men/

luka
25-08-2016, 08:48 AM
There are plenty of groups operating outside of the law in America, relying on violence and blood feuds to settle disputes. The contemptible thing about Donovan is he'd rather role play it. Go and be a Sonny Barger, go and be a Big Meech if you want to test yourself in that world, but remember the stakes are high. People really get killed.
But don't dress up like Kaal Drogo and howl in the woods with your mates and then tell us that's the essence of masculinity.

luka
25-08-2016, 08:50 AM
The aesthetics of it give the game away. The Dothraki horde, Norwegian death metal, Irish-Canadian historical drama television series 'the Vikings'...

Corpsey
25-08-2016, 09:18 AM
There are plenty of groups operating outside of the law in America, relying on violence and blood feuds to settle disputes. The contemptible thing about Donovan is he'd rather role play it. Go and be a Sonny Barger, go and be a Big Meech if you want to test yourself in that world, but remember the stakes are high. People really get killed.
But don't dress up like Kaal Drogo and howl in the woods with your mates and then tell us that's the essence of masculinity.

LOL

I do think an awful lot of this stuff is about nerdy men who are scared of women and therefore resent them.

This Andrew O'Hagen piece about mass killers in the US addresses this issue: http://www.lrb.co.uk/v37/n20/andrew-ohagan/whos-the-alpha-male-now-bitches

And here's my old mucker Martin Amis, also in the LRB, writing on Robert Bly's masculinity-crisis tome 'Iron John': http://www.lrb.co.uk/v13/n23/martin-amis/return-of-the-male

Mr. Tea
25-08-2016, 09:18 AM
http://hyperstition.abstractdynamics.org/

reza, the iranian who wrote cyclonopedia was a contributor here too

I'm friends with Kristen Alvanson (artist/Mrs Reza) on Facebook. Just seen a photo she's posted of a bunch of people sitting on the floor in an apartment surrounded by big scribbled-on squares of card. The caption is


Party at my and reza's place for nick land a couple weeks ago. Talking about the diagrams each person made of how their mind works. That was fun, thanks [------] for the photo.

Kind of disappointed one of them isn't a big amphetamine molecule or an Adderall capsule.

droid
25-08-2016, 11:43 AM
https://youtu.be/C7aG-VQYGhA

I think this video is important, a high watermark of sorts. Once you realise its not a parody you can see it as a summary of the US alt-right and a vision of SS youtube circa 1937 - except worse. I particularly like the comments - the many open calls for genocide of European non-whites and debates on whether right wing Jews should be allowed in 'the movement'.

droid
25-08-2016, 11:46 AM
And, whilst not entirely germane, Ive now been sucked into an alt-right/Nazi pop pastiche Youtube rabbit hole.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhrYY3ocQ5o

Benny B
25-08-2016, 12:14 PM
LOL



And here's my old mucker Martin Amis, also in the LRB, writing on Robert Bly's masculinity-crisis tome 'Iron John': http://www.lrb.co.uk/v13/n23/martin-amis/return-of-the-male

surprise surprise, jack donovan has reviewed this book too. Verdict: quite good in places but needs more balls

http://www.jack-donovan.com/axis/2010/11/revisiting-iron-john/

a word of warning. this article contains the following words and phrases; 'men’s movement”, 'mancession', 'katabasis for men', 'inner warrior', 'male initiation', 'woundology', 'authentic, organic masculine experience' and 'a wounded male soul'.

:eek:

Mr. Tea
25-08-2016, 12:29 PM
...'inner warrior'...

Well if Naomi Wolf can have an 'inner goddess' then why not, eh?

Mr. Tea
25-08-2016, 12:31 PM
And, whilst not entirely germane, Ive now been sucked into an alt-right/Nazi pop pastiche Youtube rabbit hole.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhrYY3ocQ5o

Fourth from right - wow, that's a new direction for Simon Pegg, isn't it?

luka
25-08-2016, 01:03 PM
Breaking Bad is all about reclaiming masculinity

Mr. Tea
25-08-2016, 01:06 PM
Breaking Bad is all about reclaiming masculinity

And Fight Club before that, of course.

luka
25-08-2016, 01:09 PM
Yes but everybody understood that about fight club whereas for some reason a lot of people missed the point of breaking bad

droid
25-08-2016, 04:42 PM
"I am not much for the term 'alt-right" because it implies that neo-Nazis somehow become new, different, interesting and edgy when they get a Twitter account and express their support for Donald Trump,"

https://mic.com/articles/152233/the-disturbing-truth-about-trump-and-the-alt-right-why-white-nationalism-is-here-to-stay

droid
25-08-2016, 05:06 PM
Probably a distinction to be made between anarcho capitalist scum, rationalist fedora pricks, tea party nutbags and outright neo-nazi racists... though perhaps the genius of the alt-right is that it brings them all together?

luka
25-08-2016, 05:15 PM
Brings them all together under one banner, to wage righteous war on that woman from ghostbusters twitter account

Mr. Tea
25-08-2016, 07:09 PM
I want to know Vim's opinion on all of this!

vimothy
25-08-2016, 09:02 PM
My opinion is that these amateurs could certainly take a few lessons in trolling from Luka :D

firefinga
25-08-2016, 09:20 PM
Breaking Bad is all about reclaiming masculinity

Not to me, I thought it was rather about the betrayed (or the "we feel betrayed") and under pressure middle class. But then, I am old fashioned and regard "class" to be way more important than "gender" and all the other fancy modern mambo jambo.

luka
25-08-2016, 09:53 PM
My opinion is that these amateurs could certainly take a few lessons in trolling from Luka :D

Thanks mate!

Mr. Tea
25-08-2016, 10:00 PM
Not to me, I thought it was rather about the betrayed (or the "we feel betrayed") and under pressure middle class. But then, I am old fashioned and regard "class" to be way more important than "gender" and all the other fancy modern mambo jambo.

^typical cisbourgeois

Benny B
26-08-2016, 09:58 AM
http://www.vice.com/read/actual-cuckolds-are-pissed-off-at-the-far-right-using-cuck-as-an-insult

:eek:

firefinga
26-08-2016, 11:46 AM
^typical cisbourgeois

A badge I wear with honour :)

Mr. Tea
26-08-2016, 12:17 PM
http://www.vice.com/read/actual-cuckolds-are-pissed-off-at-the-far-right-using-cuck-as-an-insult

:eek:

Pffft.

Surely it's only a matter of time before there's a Campaign to Destigmatize Self-Touch telling us we shouldn't be using 'wanker' and 'jerk-off' as insults, and a Parent-Child Love Acceptance League trying to discourage (or reclaim?) the word 'motherfucker', and...

firefinga
10-11-2016, 01:01 PM
And Fight Club before that, of course.

I interpreted Fightclub differently as well, as a take on the lost ability to feel your body "directly", a call back to experience "reality" instead of prefabricated "reality" in mass media. Of course today, when bilions of people subsitute their real life with their artifical existance on twitter and facebook, Fight Club appears to be even more radical (at least to me).

luka
23-01-2017, 09:18 PM
https://mobile.twitter.com/donswaynos/status/822806687207870464/video/1

luka
01-09-2017, 01:24 PM
http://groupnameforgrapejuice.blogspot.co.uk/2017/08/broke-and-woke.html

read this

Mr. Tea
01-09-2017, 05:12 PM
http://groupnameforgrapejuice.blogspot.co.uk/2017/08/broke-and-woke.html

read this

Some good stuff here, although a few howlers too; in particular, Russia isn't "the enemy" as far as the alt-right is concerned, more like a friendly rival at worst - they see Putin running 'his' country the way they want Trump to run theirs.

This line is OTM:


...any effective movement against corporate capitalism must completely sever any links that it has to the Democratic or any other neo-liberal party, to the corporate media or any "alternative" media that functions only as its mirror...

sufi
02-09-2017, 04:14 PM
903473298045992960

Mr. Tea
18-09-2017, 09:36 AM
Is 'cultural Marxism' a real thing? Does anyone described themselves as a cultural Marxist?

What I mean is: is there a real idea - perhaps an obscure concept of interest to a few left-wing philosophy professors - which the alt-right has blown up into this great existential threat to Western civilization, or have they conjured a bogeyman completely out of thin air?

firefinga
18-09-2017, 09:57 AM
Is 'cultural Marxism' a real thing? Does anyone described themselves as a cultural Marxist?

What I mean is: is there a real idea - perhaps an obscure concept of interest to a few left-wing philosophy professors - which the alt-right has blown up into this great existential threat to Western civilization, or have they conjured a bogeyman completely out of thin air?

Of course it's a "real thing" just as much as the "Alt-right" is a real thing, meaning those "concepts" are floating around and resonate within certain groups - and sometimes break into the mainstream/mass consciousness.

"Cultural Marxism" is actually quite an old concept dating back (at least in the German speaking world where I have some knowledge) to the aftermaths of WW1 (possibly even the second half of the 19th century) used by right wingers of different kinds to describe an assault on traditional values connected to ideas like Nation (race) and a connected culture (and religion), the arts etc. Things like modern art, atheism, the rejection of traditional marriage/sex-life, Jazz were seen as the "cultural" expression/branch of the communist assault on "the old world" basically.

Mr. Tea
18-09-2017, 10:26 AM
Yeah yeah yeah I get that, but I'm interested in whether anyone calls themselves a cultural Marxist, or says "I am involved in cultural Marxism and it is a good thing" (in the same way people identify as being part of the alt-right, for example). I'm well aware it's a term of abuse among the right.

Mr. Tea
18-09-2017, 10:29 AM
No-one says "I am an Islamofascist", but it's a derogatory term for militant Salafism/Wahhabism, and people (whole states, even) do identify as Salafist.

firefinga
18-09-2017, 10:34 AM
Yeah yeah yeah I get that, but I'm interested in whether anyone calls themselves a cultural Marxist, or says "I am involved in cultural Marxism and it is a good thing" (in the same way people identify as being part of the alt-right, for example). I'm well aware it's a term of abuse among the right.

No of course not. Except for a few odd (or not so odd) individuals nobody calls themselves Marxist today either.

But then, what is being ment by "Cultural Marxism" today to begin with? Who is being assaulted by being called that way?

Usually it's being political activists/artists/leftist college professors being called "Cultural Marxists". "Cultural Marxism" is being understood by the right-wingers as a basic rejection of "Western" ideas (usually not defined properly/in a sloppy way).

There are people born/raised/educated in the West rejecting those vague values. They are the right wingers targets in that regard, and usually call themselves "progressives", but not "Cultural Marxists". So, a self-designation as "Cultural Marxists" doesn't exist, at least not to my knowledge.

Mr. Tea
18-09-2017, 10:55 AM
Except for a few odd (or not so odd) individuals nobody calls themselves Marxist today either.


More than you might think!



I mean, I am a boring marxist...

Mr. Tea
18-09-2017, 11:05 AM
There are people born/raised/educated in the West rejecting those vague values. They are the right wingers targets in that regard, and usually call themselves "progressives", but not "Cultural Marxists". So, a self-designation as "Cultural Marxists" doesn't exist, at least not to my knowledge.

OK, that's more or less what I thought.

john eden
18-09-2017, 01:33 PM
People might not call themselves "cultural marxists" but that is basically what Gramsci was on about, no?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonio_Gramsci#Hegemony

Mr. Tea
18-09-2017, 04:32 PM
Interesting, thanks.

john eden
18-09-2017, 04:50 PM
Thing is, some of the stuff that these right wing conspiracists are on about is real.

There was a "long march through the institutions" which aimed at a left wing cultural hegemony. If you pick a university lecturer at random they are quite likely to be left wing or liberal.

LGBT+ people have engaged in campaigning around normalising homosexuality etc.

And to some extent these have been victories. (In other areas less so - why was higher education such fertile ground for this stuff in a way that factories, warehouses and call centres don't seem to have been?)

But obviously conspiracy theory is the wrong way to look at this (perhaps with the exception of things like the Living Marxism/Spiked cult: http://www.lobbywatch.org/profile1.asp?PrId=78 )

What these things are, are social movements. In the same way that the alt-right is a social movement which is trying to establish its own cultural hegemony.

Mr. Tea
18-09-2017, 05:16 PM
Ha, Spiked! If ever there was a case to be made for the horseshoe theory...

john eden
18-09-2017, 05:37 PM
Ha, Spiked! If ever there was a case to be made for the horseshoe theory...

Well there is a more marxist explanation, which is that the RCP was always prone to contrarianism (headlines like "World War Two - who won?"), was always elitist and based in universities (you had to pass an exam to join) etc. And class will out.

Mr. Tea
18-09-2017, 06:45 PM
Well there is a more marxist explanation, which is that the RCP was always prone to contrarianism (headlines like "World War Two - who won?"), was always elitist and based in universities (you had to pass an exam to join) etc. And class will out.

They're kind of an irrelevant group, though - I mean, everything they've done since Blood Sugar Sex Magic has been shite, let's face it.

sadmanbarty
19-09-2017, 06:22 PM
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/a-chilling-study-shows-how-hostile-college-students-are-toward-free-speech/2017/09/18/cbb1a234-9ca8-11e7-9083-fbfddf6804c2_story.html?tid=ss_tw&utm_term=.524b47b81162

droid
21-09-2017, 12:21 PM
A lot of info here.

https://alternativeright.hopenothate.com/my-year-inside-the-international-alt-right

Its as tawdry and repulsive as you'd expect.

Mr. Tea
21-09-2017, 12:55 PM
A lot of info here.

https://alternativeright.hopenothate.com/my-year-inside-the-international-alt-right

Its as tawdry and repulsive as you'd expect.

Pfffft.

https://storage.googleapis.com/hnh-alt-right-report/imager/storage_googleapis_com/hnh-alt-right-report/section-3-Hitler-Teapot-by-Charles-Krafft_56555520e45474a010a92b213f3afc65.jpg

sadmanbarty
25-09-2017, 11:45 AM
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/a-chilling-study-shows-how-hostile-college-students-are-toward-free-speech/2017/09/18/cbb1a234-9ca8-11e7-9083-fbfddf6804c2_story.html?tid=ss_tw&utm_term=.524b47b81162

oh...

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/sep/22/college-free-speech-violence-survey-junk-science

Mr. Tea
25-09-2017, 01:13 PM
Not 'alt right' exactly - although I appreciate the irony that 'alt' is German for 'old' - but AfD got 13% over the weekend.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2017/sep/24/german-elections-2017-latest-results-live-merkel-bundestag-afd

Doesn't sound like a huge percentage, but it makes them the third-biggest party. Notable that their core vote is in the old DDR, although I dunno whether that has more to do with the partition of the country or simply because that's where most immigrants are entering.

vimothy
06-10-2017, 09:18 PM
Yiannopoulos, doxxed: https://www.buzzfeed.com/josephbernstein/heres-how-breitbart-and-milo-smuggled-white-nationalism

luka
06-10-2017, 11:10 PM
Yiannopoulos, doxxed: https://www.buzzfeed.com/josephbernstein/heres-how-breitbart-and-milo-smuggled-white-nationalism

“It’s no secret that North America contains many distinct cultural/ethnic communities. This is not optimal, but with a competent king it’s not a huge problem either” :crylarf::crylarf::crylarf:

Corpsey
10-10-2017, 07:34 PM
An interesting remark made in a thread about alleged alt-righter Anthony Fantano on ILX:

this stuff keeps making me turn over something I brought up on the Bill Hicks thread, which is how the alt-right/gamergate/whatever free speech steez is like a weaponized zombie political philosophy that's a reconstituted and repurposed leftover from the left's fights against the puritanical religious right in the 20th century. Except the internet basically rendered the religious right completely irrelevant and largely mute in the face of the overwhelming evidence that the general populace of America loves pornography, graphic violence, saying whatever-the-fuck, etc. That enemy is gone, rendered impotent in terms of culture wars - but the tactics and arguments and views developed to fight them (incl the "pushing the envelope"/"let's see how offensive we can be" styles of standup comedians, rappers/musicians, and various other cultural players) have hung around and been kept alive. But there is no Moral Majority or PMRC to fight against now. The only ones attempting to place limits (and these aren't even gov't-mandated limits, as in the past!) on what's acceptable cultural discourse are on the left, and so the fire gets turned on them. It's a weird ahistorical inversion

Mr. Tea
12-10-2017, 08:42 PM
Yiannopoulos, doxxed: https://www.buzzfeed.com/josephbernstein/heres-how-breitbart-and-milo-smuggled-white-nationalism

What struck me about this piece is just how personally unpleasant all these men are. I mean yes, like duh, of course they are, but it's amazing to see how much bitchiness, spite, double-dealing and childish competitiveness there is going between colleagues, business partners and supposed friends and allies, never mind how they treat their ideological enemies.

Yiannopoulos in particular is clearly not just a racist and misogynist but also a contemptible coward and an idiot, advancing his career by aligning himself with the likes of Mike Pence, the exact Christian analogue of the Muslim homophobic he constantly rails against. And I wonder what he (and Thiel, for that matter) make of "Daddy's" latest public engagement date:
Trump to address anti-gay hate group (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/donald-trump-anti-lgbt-address-hate-group-summit-meeting-first-president-us-homphobia-a7997401.html).