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luka
28-01-2017, 09:31 AM
I prefer being straight I think. Us '90s people grew up thinking we had to be fucked up every day. It's hard for us to learn how to live straight. Mind you, I owe drugs a lot. They definitely make you more intelligent and cultivated.

Corpsey
28-01-2017, 12:01 PM
I often worry these days about whether or not I should give up weed. It's bad for me in all sorts of ways but it's also (and I know this sounds sort of pathetic) a religious experience for me being stoned sometimes. I see things differently stoned, both more childishly and more profoundly. When doing an MA I had most of my good ideas for essays and what have you when stoned. Visual art and music in particular become more vivid and miraculous to me when stoned. Finally, I write better when I'm stoned. To paraphrase Hemingway 'write stoned; edit sober'.

As for other drugs, I do cocaine a fair amount cos my friends do. It's okay. Pretty pointless though. I love a good hallucinogenic trip from time to time. MDMA is always fun but it's the comedowns that put me off. A nine to five is depressing enough without that to deal with.

I enjoy drinking but it quickly turns sour for me.

I can't imagine anything worse than being fucked up all the time.

luka
28-01-2017, 12:03 PM
dont give it up if its still a religious expereince. i gave it up cos our relationship broke down and became dysfunctional.
if it was still like that i would still do it.

Corpsey
28-01-2017, 12:11 PM
Oh our relationship certainly is dysfunctional, just as soon as I don't have a book or a film or music or whatever to contemplate. When I'm lying in the dark for example, trying to go to sleep.

I like getting a bit stoned and walking around London. Again, the huge buildings become miraculous and strange. The 'ordinary' becomes extraordinary. I'm being a bit over the top, I suppose, but it recently occurred to me that that I probably won't stop doing it for a long time. Although every night is too much. You've got to ration out the eternal.

yyaldrin
28-01-2017, 02:29 PM
I prefer being straight I think. Us '90s people grew up thinking we had to be fucked up every day. It's hard for us to learn how to live straight. Mind you, I owe drugs a lot. They definitely make you more intelligent and cultivated.

Isn't it boring?

yyaldrin
28-01-2017, 02:37 PM
I think i'll go with only drinking and taking drugs in the summer. I found it impossible in winter because of lack of daylight.

luka
28-01-2017, 02:47 PM
It can be boring. You have to cultivate good habits. Thats why it's difficult. I cope by never leaving the house, downloading Japanese percussion based albums and looking at memes.

luka
28-01-2017, 02:48 PM
I think i'll go with only drinking and taking drugs in the summer. I found it impossible in winter because of lack of daylight.

What do you mean only? What else is there?

luka
28-01-2017, 02:52 PM
I've downloaded about 40 gb of music in the last week. And I've seen every meme.

Benny B
28-01-2017, 02:56 PM
I've downloaded about 40 gb of music in the last week. And I've seen every meme.

...because you stopped smoking weed?

luka
28-01-2017, 03:06 PM
I stopped smoking weed years ago and replaced it with alcohol. I've stopped drinking

Benny B
28-01-2017, 03:29 PM
I stopped smoking weed years ago and replaced it with alcohol. I've stopped drinking

ah, that makes more sense. Did you find quitting smoking weed easy?

Barring the odd day off I smoke weed and drink every day, have done for the last 15 years or so. I can see myself giving up weed, at least, within the next couple of years or so - ie; when I've got a job with more regular hours and responsibilities. But for that to realistically happen I'll have to give up tobacco competely I think. Whenever I've had time off smoking weed I've felt more stoned than when I was smoking it! And I turn into an insufferably grumpy, hyper-sensitive bastard, though I guess (I hope) this wears off pretty quickly after a couple of weeks. The main 2 reasons why I want to give up in the near future are to set a better example to my son and a fear of lung cancer tbh - otherwise I'm fairly guilt free for the moment, lol!

I definitely strongly associated getting stoned with enjoying music from an early age, which is probably the main reason why I've never given up. Bit silly really...

One thing I'm much happier to have stopped is binge drinking, which fucks you up the most I reckon. Since I started living in Spain where there are 3-4 bars on every street and good weather, I'll go out and have 2 or three beers every night, or when I stay in I'll have a couple of glasses of red. but I definitely don't miss the days of not drinking during the week, then going out every weekend and drinking heavily 2 nights on the trot and feeling like shit for the rest of the week - much better to space it out.

Benny B
28-01-2017, 03:34 PM
I'm currently having a crafty bifter and a glass of rioja and listening to E2-E4 on headphones while my son's having a siesta. This is the life!

luka
28-01-2017, 03:36 PM
I only stopped because I stopped enjoying it, although I carried on for years after it had become a chore. I found I had to give up multiple times before it stuck. The first time was very difficult. Each time the withdrawal is easier. Everyone gets moody when they stop. You just have to stick with it. Hope you don't alienate the people around you permanently.

Benny B
28-01-2017, 03:44 PM
I only stopped because I stopped enjoying it, although I carried on for years after it had become a chore. I found I had to give up multiple times before it stuck. The first time was very difficult. Each time the withdrawal is easier. Everyone gets moody when they stop. You just have to stick with it. Hope you don't alienate the people around you permanently.

Well that's encouraging, thank you.

So much has to do with the context. When I went back to England last summer for a month I didn't smoke weed for the whole time and didn't even think about it because I was out of the daily routine, it was easy. Maybe next summer I'll do the same then just stop for good.

luka
28-01-2017, 04:17 PM
I'm being a bit over the top, I suppose

underplaying it if anything. it can be a profound and transformative experience.

Lichen
30-01-2017, 09:04 AM
[QUOTE fear of lung cancer.[/QUOTE]

Vape.

Corpsey
30-01-2017, 09:42 AM
One thing about weed is that I think people smoke too much (myself included).

If I have one or two tokes of a spliff I can be stoned for five/six hours afterwards. But ordinarily, of course, I smoke a whole spliff, and then I'm unable to sleep.

It's so powerful these days, perhaps that's the issue.

luka
30-01-2017, 09:46 AM
It's not too strong it's too moreish

Mr. Tea
30-01-2017, 09:57 AM
It can be pretty strong, that's not really arguable. Good hash is much nicer than skunk but of course you have to know someone who sells the stuff.

luka
30-01-2017, 10:25 AM
lol is it fuck. dirty hippy shit. munter drug. smoke skunk or dont smoke is my rule.

luka
30-01-2017, 10:28 AM
my point was if its strong it should be possible to smoke less and the strength isnt an issue, like with spirits. the problem is that its moreish partly because it tastes delicious and partly becasue the crash is quite full on so you want to keep topped up

Corpsey
30-01-2017, 10:31 AM
You're right about it being delicious. That's the problem, you wanna pack as much in as you can but then it knocks your head off.

I'd like it to taste the same but be cheaper and of around 25% the strength.

Benny B
30-01-2017, 10:46 AM
lol is it fuck. dirty hippy shit. munter drug. smoke skunk or dont smoke is my rule.

nah, much prefer hash me

andalucia is just across from morocco so the hash I get here is much better quality than the green. Dark and soft, you can roll it out with your fingers.

but even with top quality skunk, I still prefer nice hash. Like corpsey says, I can't sleep after smoking skunk and still feel stoned when I get up in the morning. Plus hash lasts me longer, which is a big factor when you're skint.

Benny B
30-01-2017, 10:48 AM
Vape.

NEVER!

Mr. Tea
30-01-2017, 11:14 AM
lol is it fuck. dirty hippy shit. munter drug. smoke skunk or dont smoke is my rule.

Rubbish. You've obviously never had the good stuff. It ain't all soapbar you know.



I'd like it to taste the same but be cheaper and of around 25% the strength.

At the risk of stating the obvious, have you tried just rolling spliffs with around less 75% weed in them?

Corpsey
30-01-2017, 11:33 AM
My eyes are bigger than my stomach/lungs.

Mr. Tea
30-01-2017, 11:40 AM
Be well lol if that were literally true.

luka
30-01-2017, 11:41 AM
Lol at never had the good stuff. Last time I saw you your hash stank of henna. Hash is a dirty drug. The fact that Spanish crusties love it is all the proof you need. Do you want to get a rats tail and start listening to acid tekno as well? Behave yourselves.

luka
30-01-2017, 11:45 AM
The Spanish have no standards.

Mr. Tea
30-01-2017, 11:57 AM
Lol at never had the good stuff. Last time I saw you your hash stank of henna. Hash is a dirty drug.

That wasn't great stuff. I used to get much better hash than that but it was years ago, when I still lived in London. I've smoked it in Lebanon too, and if it's going to be good anywhere it'll be good there.

Benny B
30-01-2017, 11:57 AM
Lol luka. I swear weve already had this convo on here before.

Fwiw i share ur contempt for rat-tailed crusties to a certain degree (not just spanish ones though), but morrocan hash is a quality product.

Corpsey
30-01-2017, 12:20 PM
Hash in Amsterdam is lovely. Nothing like the horrible stuff we used to smoke in school.

luka
31-01-2017, 08:02 AM
Ask yourself this question- how many rappers do hear obsessing over different varieties of hash? Yes exactly thank you

Mr. Tea
31-01-2017, 08:20 AM
Yeah but a lot of those guys drink 'malt liquor', whatever the fuck that is, and get high on cough syrup mixed with fizzy pop. So I dunno if they should be taken as the ultimate arbiters of the good things in life.

luka
31-01-2017, 08:22 AM
No one gets high more than rappers. Rappers are the authority in these matters.

sadmanbarty
31-01-2017, 10:10 AM
No one gets high more than rappers. Rappers are the authority in these matters.

Their pockets fatter. Fuck with them and your head gets splattered. They'll leave you in tatters.

Benny B
31-01-2017, 10:32 AM
Ask yourself this question- how many rappers do hear obsessing over different varieties of hash? Yes exactly thank you

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzx0HTCuydg

Corpsey
31-01-2017, 10:39 AM
I think Goldie Lookin Chain are still my favourite UK Hip-Hop act of all time.

Benny B
31-01-2017, 10:39 AM
actually, does soapbar even exist any more? Haven't seen or smoked any since like, the 90s.

luka
31-01-2017, 10:45 AM
theres basically no difference between goldie lookign chain and 90% of the high focus roster

Corpsey
22-02-2017, 04:44 PM
When did Britain stop being a nation of hedonists?

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/feb/22/when-did-britain-stop-being-a-nation-of-hedonists?

empty mirror
24-02-2017, 10:39 AM
i've pretty much stopped buying herb but nevertheless it finds me every now and again
my thing is, i never ration it, so when i have it, i smoke it till it is gone - like all day every day
if i could just have two puffs every now and again, that would be perfect

i shroom on major holidays, so only once every few months
increasingly less, i admit

microdosing is where it is at
just a bit to make the edges a little sparkly
and a touch of the HD vision

luka
24-02-2017, 10:47 AM
Microdosing is fine if you want to read a book or perhaps go to a gallery but it doesn't get you through the gate, just milling about in the courtyard, which can be frustrating. Depends what mood you're in.

empty mirror
24-02-2017, 12:50 PM
i don't always want a peek behind the curtain

Corpsey
24-02-2017, 12:59 PM
I had an intense ket trip at a festival last year (semi accidentally) and the best thing about the whole experience was waking up sober the next day. The experience gave me an intense sense of gratitude for sanity. I wonder if that's why it functions as an antidepressant?

empty mirror
24-02-2017, 01:32 PM
that's a big takeaway for me after an intenser than expected trip.
so happy that everything is back in its right place.

Corpsey
06-03-2017, 09:25 AM
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-03-02/the-case-for-eating-weed-at-work

'With recreational marijuana now legal in eight states and the District of Columbia, users have gravitated to low-dose edibles, such as brownies and mints with THC content of less than 5 milligrams—low enough for a manageable high for first-time users. Often, companies market these products to first-time users or those with low tolerances. But weed sellers have found another use case for low-dose edibles: microdosing.

Microdosing refers to regularly taking small amounts of drugs—generally, hard-to-get and illegal psychoactive ones, such as LSD or psychedelic mushrooms—throughout the day to boost creativity. Taken in such small quantities, the drugs don't make users trip. Rather, people claim the drugs improve their concentration, problem-solving abilities, creativity, and productivity and reduce their anxiety.'

Corpsey
06-03-2017, 09:27 AM
I'm really into this idea. One toke = a microdose of sorts and that's usually enough to keep me happily hazy for a few hours, rather than incapable of leaving the house for fear of stranger danger.

luka
06-03-2017, 09:35 AM
i read that recently too. i think the tendency is always for intake to take an upward trajectory over time regardless of good intentions. at least if youre like me anyway.

ive had two big booze and coke blowouts this year but otherwise keeping on the straight and narrow and feeling smug about it.

muser
06-03-2017, 11:17 AM
I'm pretty sure drugs have made me more stupid, or rather, doing way too many in my teens probably had long-term affects. There was some study about permanently impaired cognition the guardian wrote an article about recently. Although I doubt it was randomized double-blind.. it's probably quite likely that stupid people do more drugs when they should be getting history degrees or whatever. Regardless now i'm in my 30's I feel it's definitely time to give it a rest, still not sure how people socialize effectively without drugs though? playing Uno? all seems a bit weird.

catalog
06-03-2017, 11:46 AM
I've stopped on everything (alcohol, cigarettes, drugs) for about 7 months.
Gotta say I don't feel that much healthier.
Altho I have more leisure time now, so I'm getting into sport for the first time in what feels like years.
Main thing I've noticed is that I can save money.
I think that's the thing really - particularly the booze/fags thing, it just feels like a tax more than anything else.

HMGovt
06-03-2017, 04:37 PM
I've stopped on everything (alcohol, cigarettes, drugs) for about 7 months.
Gotta say I don't feel that much healthier.
Altho I have more leisure time now, so I'm getting into sport for the first time in what feels like years.
Main thing I've noticed is that I can save money.
I think that's the thing really - particularly the booze/fags thing, it just feels like a tax more than anything else.

Try knocking carbohydrates on the head too. That makes a big difference to health, weight, stamina, appetite, concentration, life expectancy.
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2016/09/26/nutritional-ketosis-benefits.aspx

Mr. Tea
06-03-2017, 09:00 PM
I'm really into this idea. One toke = a microdose of sorts and that's usually enough to keep me happily hazy for a few hours, rather than incapable of leaving the house for fear of stranger danger.

Call me crazy, but an occasional light dose of an opiate is a great way to get a steady buzz that's more like a general sense of ease and wellbeing (as opposed to an off-your-tits rush) and that leaves you compos mentis and functional. Of course you need to exercise self control so that the doses don't become un-light and un-occasional.

entertainment
22-03-2017, 11:31 PM
Has anyone here (or do anyone here know anyone) that has successfully kept a moderate coke habit for a longer period of time? I enjoy taking it at clubs or bars primarily because it gets me into situations, conversations and brief romantic relationships that I wouldn't have unlocked otherwise. However an upswing the amount I intake over a longer period will always make me recklessly susceptible of fierce mood swings while on it. This sort of event is usually followed by a downswing in the cycle until the next time someone or something provokes the appetite.

These mood swings, although constantly looming above me, need some sort of concrete trigger, and the fucked up thing is that this role is almost always played by the changing of the song that's playing. So there I am, coked up, talking to some hot girl in great detail about the new glass-jar ficus bonsai tree i just got, that has its own eco-system, totally oblivious to the fact that in about ten seconds the v-neck t-shirt wearing dj will fade in 50 Cent's 'Candy Shop' and the only thing I'll be going home with is a fucking kebab.

yyaldrin
25-04-2017, 09:08 AM
I stopped smoking weed years ago and replaced it with alcohol. I've stopped drinking

How long have you not had any alcohol by now? Is/was it difficult? I'm curious.

luka
25-04-2017, 09:19 AM
Haven't had a beer since 11pm last night.

yyaldrin
25-04-2017, 09:27 AM
Well, it's a start I guess.

luka
05-05-2017, 03:30 AM
I do remember a few spots along the road where I've become absolutely tired of myself. And this is a big one. These moments have always been a huge generator for change. And I'm quite grateful for it. But me, personally, I can't remember a day since I got out of college when I wasn't boozing or had a spliff, or something. Something. And you realize that a lot of it is, um—cigarettes, you know, pacifiers. And I'm running from feelings. I'm really, really happy to be done with all of that. I mean I stopped everything except boozing when I started my family. But even this last year, you know—things I wasn't dealing with. I was boozing too much. It's just become a problem. And I'm really happy it's been half a year now, which is bittersweet, but I've got my feelings in my fingertips again. I think that's part of the human challenge: You either deny them all of your life or you answer them and evolve.

baboon2004
05-05-2017, 06:04 AM
That's an interesting line of thought. It's at the same time very simple, in the sense that it can be expressed clearly and concisely, and one of the most profound personal realisations there is.

I feel similarly, although not explicitly in terms of using physical substances (so maybe this is a bit of a thread derail). I've always kept myself away from those drugs that I know I would like too much, aside from ecstasy - I could handle that one just fine whilst really enjoying it. Alcohol I used to have issues with, but a health scare made me give up for three months (which I doubted I could achieve) and I never went back to boozing in the same way afterwards. I use patterns of behaviour, wasting time, in the same way - sometimes involving substances to dull unruly thought, sometimes not. I'm tired of yoking myself to the same old ways of avoiding difficult feelings - sometimes while at the same time deluding myself that I'm emotionally open, and that there aren't parts of me that I keep tightly locked away.

As you say, it's when you get tired and bored of yourself that change occurs. Doesn't really matter what anyone else urges you to do (although some people can have persuasive ways of phrasing the urge), it requires you to come to that point where you're a bit sick of yourself, and a bit sick of returning to making the same choices which don't really work.

Lichen
05-05-2017, 08:31 AM
I do remember a few spots along the road where I've become absolutely tired of myself. And this is a big one. These moments have always been a huge generator for change. And I'm quite grateful for it. But me, personally, I can't remember a day since I got out of college when I wasn't boozing or had a spliff, or something. Something. And you realize that a lot of it is, um—cigarettes, you know, pacifiers. And I'm running from feelings. I'm really, really happy to be done with all of that. I mean I stopped everything except boozing when I started my family. But even this last year, you know—things I wasn't dealing with. I was boozing too much. It's just become a problem. And I'm really happy it's been half a year now, which is bittersweet, but I've got my feelings in my fingertips again. I think that's part of the human challenge: You either deny them all of your life or you answer them and evolve.


I thought Brad's confessional was great.

luka
05-05-2017, 10:24 AM
Yep. Brad in GQ. Glad someone besides me keeps abreast of current affairs

Lichen
05-05-2017, 11:31 AM
He must of written a blank cheque to his therapist.
That kind of self-knowledge doesn't come cheap.

firefinga
05-05-2017, 12:12 PM
Millions of people in the western world on anti depressants. Me thinks, that's the most common drug(s) these days.

IdleRich
05-05-2017, 12:38 PM
As you say, it's when you get tired and bored of yourself that change occurs. Doesn't really matter what anyone else urges you to do (although some people can have persuasive ways of phrasing the urge), it requires you to come to that point where you're a bit sick of yourself, and a bit sick of returning to making the same choices which don't really work.
In Infinite Jest there is all that stuff about recovering drug addicts and they talk a lot about reaching the bottom. I guess that comes from some Twelve Step Programme or something but it's probably a universal thing and I reckon it's roughly what you're talking about here. Of course with seriously unhappy addicts (and especially in that book) the bottom is normally something much more dramatic like realising you've killed your family or whatever - whereas with someone generally healthier and more in control then hopefully that bottom which causes you to get a hold of yourself and turn things around is not gonna be so horrific. But it's the same idea right?

luka
05-05-2017, 01:19 PM
Yes, same thing although as lichen says that was Brad Pitt in GQ not me.

Mr. Tea
05-05-2017, 02:53 PM
We should have a thread where luka posts a paragraph at a time and we have to guess whether it's his own writing or he's quoting a Hollywood A-lister baring their soul in a glossy magazine.

baboon2004
05-05-2017, 05:39 PM
I thought Brad was spot on. Though the photoshoot was less so.

firefinga
28-05-2017, 10:24 AM
I grew up in the country,and after years living in a city I have gone back. Which made me aware of how much knowledge has gone lost regarding herbs and mushrooms as means for both healing and intoxication. A mate of mine is some sort of a specialist in these fields and knows tons about what herbs n mushrooms are edible and furthermore could give you a proper rush. Definitely a field I have an interest in and worth investing time n effort in.

Corpsey
13-11-2017, 05:51 PM
Wellness in dance music

https://www.residentadvisor.net/features/3095


Yoga, meditation and sober morning raves—as time goes on, healthy living becomes evermore present in club culture. Angus Finlayson considers the implications.

Mr. Tea
13-11-2017, 09:08 PM
I grew up in the country,and after years living in a city I have gone back. Which made me aware of how much knowledge has gone lost regarding herbs and mushrooms as means for both healing and intoxication. A mate of mine is some sort of a specialist in these fields and knows tons about what herbs n mushrooms are edible and furthermore could give you a proper rush. Definitely a field I have an interest in and worth investing time n effort in.

As an avid forager, this amuses me because there is a ton of 'traditional country wisdom' about mushrooms, nearly all of which is total horseshit and could potentially get you killed.

Edit: at least in the UK where wild mushrooms are not widely traditionally eaten - I daresay old wives in France or Poland or wherever may have more reliable myco-lore than exists here.

firefinga
14-11-2017, 02:57 PM
As an avid forager, this amuses me because there is a ton of 'traditional country wisdom' about mushrooms, nearly all of which is total horseshit and could potentially get you killed.

Edit: at least in the UK where wild mushrooms are not widely traditionally eaten - I daresay old wives in France or Poland or wherever may have more reliable myco-lore than exists here.

Don't worry, I am aware of the BS-"folk myths" regarding natural narcotics/poisons and the real deal knowledge some of those herb-nerds seem to have.

One of my fav from my own childhood: the hornet death-formula: three hornet stings kill a man, seven a horse :crylarf:

cwmbran-city
17-01-2018, 08:03 PM
Booze = no. 25yrs on the sauce ended in 2012, chef brother uses beer, stouts & porters for stew sauces, but anything intoxicating is cooked right out. If you're into slow cooking cuts of specific meats, it can be the magical ingredient, cos even the heartiest stock can always be jazzed up. Just start with the holy trinity of diced carrots, onions/leeks & celery.

Shrubberies = yes, but only 2/3 times a week and Volcano the samples, with a bi-monthly edible blow out &/or a piece of piss easy cannabis tea method (just lob cannabis tea into youlube to see)

Class A's = not since 2011, had a few bumps of gak in 2009 & got hammered on mdma @ friend's wedding in 2006.
1987 - 2003 are another matter, everything was fair game. Not proud of some cul-de sacs, but we live & learn.

Prescriptions for complex-PTSD = dozen diazepam each 7/8 weeks, just enough to cover flashbacks. Whats fucked up here is just how quick the NHS were/are to offer a cornucopia of potions, rather than evidence-based therapeutic interventions. Long story short - arm-barred & coerced into trialing Haloperidol, Olanzapine, Mirtazapine, Quetiapine (Seroquel) & Zopiclone. While Zopiclone is str8 up addictive, all the aforementioned were horrendous on starting - hallucinations, zero libido, plus time taken to wedge withdrawal. The worst were Haloperidol & Quetiapine, which were dribbling zombie mess makers par excellence. Nothing has put me on my arse so hard as Quetiapine, not even high-purity heroin.

Anti-depressants are entirely appropriate in a supervised care-plan when symptoms & declining personal circumstances justify their intake. Problem is because mental health provision here in Britain is so relentlessly fragmented, underfunded, understaffed & with waiting lists running from 1-3yrs, how successfully you get treated is a complete lottery compounded by institutional obfuscation. Without an advocate you can be led directly to an early grave thru suicide or lose your mind entirely & end up sectioned indefinitely. The ultimate labyrinth, where the Greeks and their Minotaur & Crowley's Choronzon all actually exist, it just depends which cultural or scientific lenses you view these experiences through.

Problems in Britain are all down to over-prescription of cheap medications for conditions which can be alleviated & cured by specific forms of psychological therapies, eg CBT & EMDR, but which cost a fk load more to provide. So its way too easy for someone vulnerable, with no knowledge of how community mental health teams are organized, to attend their GP & then be misdirected & palmed off with meds that half-work, which then often recoil back toward alcohol & substance abuse.

A system not fit for purpose, to put it mildly, so yeah its great when you're straight, thats if & when you have sufficient medical support to reach such a goal & maintain.

Disclaimer - scuse the mini-essay waffle, but mental health & "sobriety" are frequently inter-dependent & treatment plans are rarely fit for purpose outside of specialized detox units. If you're experiencing problems with health care providers (GP's, CMHT's & any medications), ffs source a local health advocate so they can attend & intervene during your appointments minimizing the risk of you getting mugged off. Advocacy services are one of the main reasons i'm somehow still alive, sane & receiving weekly EMDR (after lost 3yrs on a waiting list).

luka
17-01-2018, 08:20 PM
therapy is time consuming and expensive and results are impossible to quantify. it should be the basis for mental health provision but its so out of step with prevailing trends and priorities. this also explains the predominance of cbt.

this not drinking thing is really great. im so into it. you wouldnt beleive how much weight ive lost. its like turning back the clock.

only got a taste for psychedelics left now. hate booze. hate weed. hate banter.

cwmbran-city
17-01-2018, 09:55 PM
expensive if done privately, but i dont know where you are in the world or the extent/coverage of the health-care systems available to you.

time consuming, no doubt, but you cant rush healing, it can take time just like physiotherapy does with bone, muscle & freedom of movement.

there are many variables around CBT, it depends on the client & the symptoms they present with....in this respect qualitative & quantitative data analysis are the keystones in moving psychological therapies forward toward more nuanced approaches & new methodologies. Every client will have a unique set of life experiences when addressing their background profile.

I've seen CBT contain the fire of war trauma in refugees from Syria & Iraq while they wait for EMDR & the results are profound. Its the waiting for more advanced therapies that can undermine this work. It can draw out vital case history information & steady those whose war trauma isnt as extensive as more aggressive cases. Triage essentially, but still effective.

also & to play devil's advocate, my own experience with CBT can be summarized & highlighted by a few specific examples: carrying 2 blank playing cards in each back pocket of my trousers to be carried at all times for a period - 1 had "Morality of Violence" written on it & the other "Prison for GBH". These were set because my threshold for aggravation by pikey cunts was at an all time low 2 years ago, its quite summat to be on the cusp of smashing someone to a pulp cos they swore at your Ma in the street, only to reach into those pockets, read the "mantras", tell the offending parties to fuck off or get annihilated & then walk away.

there are degrees in any set of problematic circumstances & CBT is slowly being superseded by other therapies, but its not baseless & there are plenty of folks walking round today who would've gone down much darker alleys without it, myself included.

skills on the drinking, feeling the freshness is something you can mos def definitely qualify & its good not having the extra calorific intake.

respeck!

thirdform
17-01-2018, 11:17 PM
Weed is so subtly insidious imo.

You think you're less rigid, have greater associative thinking, better able to control your emotions/more conscious of how you act around others etc, but it's just the body dissociation giving you that feeling of immersion/things not lacking vitality/slight gnostic earthiness.

And here's the real deal breaker: its constantly declared to be a safer alternative to booze (and physically that is undeniably true) but that is until you're sectioned.

And NHS cbt is shit for people who overthink anyway, it forces you to go into that reflective mindset, at which point you can quite conceivably rationalise away your depression. Its all rooted in the neoliberal subject as the be all and end all.

sadmanbarty
18-01-2018, 12:18 AM
cwmbran-city is like a cross between james bond and travis bickle.

cwmbran-city
18-01-2018, 01:51 AM
Weed is so subtly insidious imo.

You think you're less rigid, have greater associative thinking, better able to control your emotions/more conscious of how you act around others etc, but it's just the body dissociation giving you that feeling of immersion/things not lacking vitality/slight gnostic earthiness.

And here's the real deal breaker: its constantly declared to be a safer alternative to booze (and physically that is undeniably true) but that is until you're sectioned.

And NHS cbt is shit for people who overthink anyway, it forces you to go into that reflective mindset, at which point you can quite conceivably rationalise away your depression. Its all rooted in the neoliberal subject as the be all and end all.


weed isnt for everyone & it isnt for every day, but for PTSD its a purge, an unknotting of tension that is hard to articulate, i'd rather that than benzo reliance

i've known 2 extreme weed casualties, 1 who lost everything, the other only a few years, but they both raped the stuff & if you did the same thing with vodka you could get a similar psychosis

choose your poisons, its a cliche but :shrugs:

context with CBT is everything, a friend who got stitched up by the NHS after an injury while working for them found it a buffer between the reality of half pay, a marriage that was taking too many hits & institutional foul play of the kind would crack some people

context & appropriate care plans for individual profiles should, in an ideal world, have the most up to date medicine & therapy available provided, seems a fair exchange for a life-time's tax, but the system is broken.

therapy has come a long way since CBT, so horses for courses, but then accessing it is another matter.




cwmbran-city is like a cross between james bond and travis bickle.


family & ancestors would disown me for going anywhere near the English establishment.

PTSD is the kind of insidious chaos that compared to weed is an 11/10 for savage & merciless cuntery. Trying to access any kind of support was impossible for long extensive periods. You think there's some kind of presence, structures, consultants, specialists, and there are.....but even a good CMHT is operating massively short of the real demand. So its funding, not efficiency.

Life is fkn random, some of the twists, the monstrous indifference, the western taboo of death which is undeniable (Game of Thrones?), but the mental health sector nationally is like something out of a Victorian nightmare & at the local level pray your health board has at least some of its shit together, or 1 dark stormy night you might bump into Edward & Tubbs.

thirdform
18-01-2018, 02:27 AM
hard not to sink into a self-absorbed skunk hole when you move about from place to place disabled and as a result are difficult to employ. But yeah, point taken. it's just all high ratio thc-to-cbd shit and most dealers don't know what they have anyway. what me man called/thought was amnesia triggered me getting fucked up, irony of ironies.

TBF the nervous tension around others should have been the red line for me, but you know, it's just in my head/if I'm more relaxed it will be alright etc...

i dunno if i have some form of trauma or complex ptsd (when you're brown/asian that shit is long) but i know what you mean about the loosening of tension (when alone.) That was why i was still smoking even when my therapist at the time pretty much implicitly told me not to mention it again as they don't like to give therapy to drug users.

sadmanbarty
18-01-2018, 10:28 PM
I read this on the bog at my dad's house. Might be of interest with regards to various therapies.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Essential-Research-Findings-Counselling-Psychotherapy/dp/1847870430

CORP$EY
19-01-2018, 10:30 AM
I definitely don't have better control of my emotions when stoned - I tried meditating stoned the other night just as an experiment and it was 10 minutes of anxiety hell

cwmbran-city
19-01-2018, 06:29 PM
You could be forgiven for thinking about knocking it on the 'ead, surely meditating stoned is just "stoned", non? If there's a chemical barrier, how can you transcend fully? Not lecturing, more an open & curious question for someone with an open mind.

In an ideal world cannabis would be available on prescription for trauma, its very difficult/borderline impossible trying to articulate how a volcano blast can create an interface where you can then genuinely see thru the murk & actualize daily/weekly goals, rather than face the constant folding in of a warped reality & the worst specifics of grinding psychological gears..... a wd40 comparison might read like self delusional bs, but life would be far far worse without the ability to micro-dose. Supermarkets and city centers are the worst. The noise generated, the zombie nations shuffling along streets & cake shelves. 2 hits off a volcano & S'burys will be soothed to a much more manageable level.

Some of the consultants i've met & talked to openly about this application have disagreed, some have kept an open mind, but when you self-chisel down & wedge the intake of "medications" they deem obligatory & still hold it together & self-regulate, slowly they can come round to this perspective. Right now, with EMDR ongoing, i hope that continues.

Thats why i'd trust cannabis over any benzo, used sparingly, but how many people know which strain they've got in an unregulated market? How many people have access to a strain thats suited to their psychology on a consistent basis? To do so involves closer association with more sketchy criminal elements unless a Cannabis Club has slowly taken you on-board, ahem. Likewise with the abortion that the UK's hash market became round the mid 90's. Clean, lower % but more varied cannabinoid spectrum hashes are pretty tricky to source consistently. It might be that folks who feel the the big friendly fear come on after ingesting flowers, would be better off with a small pipe & small doses of clean hashish/kif/live resin if yer v v lucky.

Music is the best medicine, personally speaking, both making mixes or just lazily drifting between turntables. It defines cathartic, like an audio tincture, after that its down to mood & taste. Thats another huge gap in CMHT's & mental health resources generally, how music poverty exists across society & its only really autism and palliative care that involve music therapists & engage with their skill-sets in the fullest sense of their remit.

Plenty of "sane" people i know bosh 5-7 bottles of wine a week w/out too much self introspection about their habits, but if i mentioned or disclosed that 1.5g's a week keeps an even keel upstairs, they'd scoff at the apparent absurdity, nevermind the hypocrisy.

Know your poisons & know yourself. After that it should be apparent what does & doesnt work.

luka
19-01-2018, 06:37 PM
for large parts of my life music has been completely inert. flat. affectless. i loved weed in my teens but overdid it to such n extent it stopped working. i havent been able to get a weed high for about 15 years no matter what or how much i smoke. it's a great shame and i do miss that feeling but the relationship is wrecked beyond repair.

luka
19-01-2018, 07:19 PM
used to sometimes have to buy weed of an old boy that used to give it all this


“Cannabis is anathema to the dominator culture because it deconditions or decouples users from accepted values. Because of its subliminally psychedelic effect, cannabis, when pursued as a lifestyle, places a person in intuitive contact with less goal-oriented and less competitive behavior patterns. For these reasons marijuana is unwelcome in the modern office environment, while a drug such as coffee, which reinforces the values of industrial culture, is both welcomed and encouraged. Cannabis use is correctly sensed as heretical and deeply disloyal to the values of male dominance and stratified hierarchy. Legalization of marijuana is thus a complex issue, since it involves legitimating a social factor that might ameliorate or even modify ego-dominant values.”

“There is no doubt that cannabis is trivialized as a commodity and is degraded by the designation ‘recreational drug,’ but there is also no doubt that when used occasionally in a context of ritual and culturally reinforced expectation of a transformation of consciousness, cannabis is capable of nearly the full spectrum of psychedelic effects associated with hallucinogens.”

“It diminishes the power of ego, has a mitigating effect on competitiveness, causes one to question authority, and reinforces the notion of the merely relative importance of social values.”

luka
19-01-2018, 07:20 PM
not that i disagree necessarily. that pulling the ego out for under your feet aspect can be quite disconcerting when youre not habituated to it. not sure i like it any more.

Corpsey
19-01-2018, 07:42 PM
For me weed is all about sensory stimulation and intellectual stimulation too - it makes me mind go a mile a minute which can be a blessing and a curse. The main thing it screws me up with is sleep. So I'm trying to limit to wekends now.

I'm by no means an evangelist for weed but I think it does something for me that I'd feel somewhat deprived of if I quit. Definitely best to keep it an occasional treat though.

It's funny though - sobriety isn't necessarily a "clear" state of mind to be in. We're all half blinded by our thinking patterns, cognitive biases, ego, etc. Sanity is nothing to sniffed at, of course, but I think there's a good reason why drugs play a ritualistic part in most societies.

Definitely ethically dodgy to buy drugs of course and I don't feel comfortable with that, I suppose I'm being selfish. But I feel legalisation is the solution to a lot of these problems. Perhaps I'm just naive and selfish.

Corpsey
19-01-2018, 07:44 PM
Coming back to sanity after too much ketamine can be a modestly profound experience. It made me thankful for understanding what the fuck is going on around me.

luka
19-01-2018, 07:44 PM
sobriety isn't necessarily a "clear" state of mind to be in

important point. the biggest fugs ive been in have been totally sober. really lost my way at points without drugs to return me to some degree of clarity.

Corpsey
19-01-2018, 07:46 PM
I feel like I'm being a bit... I dunno. Clearly smoking weed when you have depression isn't a good idea. Clearly smoking it all day every day isn't a good idea.

Meditation for me is the opposite of being stoned. It's about emptying your mind as much as possible. Weed is about making the world more vivid, including my thoughts. If your thoughts are negative and you're stoned it's going to be a lot harder to ignore those thoughts, in my experience.

luka
19-01-2018, 08:05 PM
https://wiki.dmt-nexus.me/Hyperspace_lexicon

thirdform
19-01-2018, 08:42 PM
used to sometimes have to buy weed of an old boy that used to give it all this


“Cannabis is anathema to the dominator culture because it deconditions or decouples users from accepted values. Because of its subliminally psychedelic effect, cannabis, when pursued as a lifestyle, places a person in intuitive contact with less goal-oriented and less competitive behavior patterns. For these reasons marijuana is unwelcome in the modern office environment, while a drug such as coffee, which reinforces the values of industrial culture, is both welcomed and encouraged. Cannabis use is correctly sensed as heretical and deeply disloyal to the values of male dominance and stratified hierarchy. Legalization of marijuana is thus a complex issue, since it involves legitimating a social factor that might ameliorate or even modify ego-dominant values.”

“There is no doubt that cannabis is trivialized as a commodity and is degraded by the designation ‘recreational drug,’ but there is also no doubt that when used occasionally in a context of ritual and culturally reinforced expectation of a transformation of consciousness, cannabis is capable of nearly the full spectrum of psychedelic effects associated with hallucinogens.”

“It diminishes the power of ego, has a mitigating effect on competitiveness, causes one to question authority, and reinforces the notion of the merely relative importance of social values.”


dealers are basically petit-bourgeois ime. oh the irony...

i mean it is what it is but i hated that hippy twaddle, same with psychedelics/dissociatives, there's really nothing there that you can translate into non-drug experiences — politically i mean. loons like terence mckenna, just fucking ugh.

luka
19-01-2018, 08:47 PM
i quite like it tbh. but then perhaps i didnt get as badly burned as you did. just wasted years as a skunk addict, which is bad enough i suppose.

DannyL
20-01-2018, 03:53 AM
Re CBT research and the like - I've heard it said that you can prove anything with research, and also, the type of people who are into CBT are the type of people who are good at research, and that's one of the reasons for it's dominance. There's some person-centred therapists I know of who are kinda trying to fight a rearguard action here and put the research base together proving that other therapies are just as effective. Mick Cooper would be the most well known.

Cwnbran-city: My sympathies in dealing with the UK mental health system. I keep on getting annoyed at this anti-EU, decentralising conspiracy magick guy I can't stop reading (you'd dig him Luka), but when you read accounts like the above, I can't help but agree with him, centralised governance can ruin fucking anything it touches.
.
I had a lecture on CBT yesterday, it's cool enough, but it did feel to me very much like the product of an engineering culture. Was also struck by it's exclusion of some of the stranger areas of experiences - dreams, the Freudian "uncanny" - but I guess it's a tool not a complete map.

cwmbran-city
20-01-2018, 05:52 PM
Thats why i'd recommend EMDR over CBT, as dream interpretations & their symbolism are usually discussed in-depth each week, as it seems part of the reprocessing actually occurs during dreams & you know what Freud said about dreams being the royal road.....

The dreams themselves are so vivid & lucid, its almost akin to another state of consciousness entirely. It also incorporates the idea of & experience with pure unadulterated malevolence, but manages to reframe it, albeit slowly, plus it integrates the notion & significance of Jung's concept of "the shadow", which CBT can be a bit dismissive of.

Because of EMDR's mechanisms, it can resolve issues far more quickly & effectively than CBT, but for lower level issues CBT is still an effective remedy to a variety of situations & circumstances (like addiction) & can even act as the holding system for severe trauma (seen first hand with Syrian/Iraqi refugees assisting a music therapist). Note that thats not a cure, but even EMDR isnt always successful in resolving every case of PTSD 100% of the time. CBT has its place, but like any form of therapy, new research & nuances that tweak the practice & move things forward need to be taken on wholesale by the psychotherapy community. Theres a gulf of difference between cutting edge research and whats actually put into practice @ Ground Zero, cos it can take many years for groundbreaking research to filter down into a public health system's domain of practice.

In Britain without centralized govt you wouldnt have local govt, and without local govt you wouldnt have local health boards (a local health board for local people). Without local health boards you're left with a market place for therapies, which is all well n good until something entirely random leads you to losing your job/icome, home, ltr & force you into the benefits system. Most pvt therapy here could be averaged to approx £100 hourly, which is impossible to access successfully on £70 weekly Employment Support Allowance (for disability) & still eat. Its only thru centralized govt that tax revenue is allocated to the demands of the NHS, but the problems of underfunding are so utterly endemic and have been compounded to a huge degree by mental health consultants not collectively demanding change. So, without central govt, i wouldnt have been able to consolidate & build on the EMDR provided, which in & of itself took years to access. Without my family i would've lost my mind entirely.

The medical profession, at some level, has to accept responsibility in not being more confrontational with central & local govt over its continued underfunding. NHS strike action is justified, given 1 in 10 nurses are now leaving the profession due to stress. With CPN's (community psychiatric nurses) the burn out rate is astronomical, so no wonder increasing numbers seek out much better packages & options abroad. The US is currently recruiting NHS nurses with the option of assisted living, bursaries for MA/MSc post-grad study & Australia is v similar.

Suicide by men under 50 is now 1 of the leading causes of death for this demographic. If it was any other form of disease or disorder, it would be treated like an international crisis. But because of the all pervasive Guardian-obsessed "patriarchy" & the fact most men are disposable workhorses in the labour market, nothing is done. I can count 4 deaths by suicide in the last 18months by acquaintances, but until someone goes into their CMHT with guns or axes and NHS workers are taken out by the dozen, nothing will change. Thats not encouraging or supporting such actions, more the slow fragmentation of services, compliance in allowing underfunding to continue (consultants retire on insane pension levels), bad apples in key positions & bottle necks at every turn equating to one almighty clusterfuck.

Stay safe out there people & if you're facing any bs from healthcare providers in accessing services, source a reliable local health advocacy service asap. They're the only people a consultant will listen to and be weary of because every conversation will then be officially documented.

Rant over, its Saturday eve, its raining so def time to knock out a new mix, plus its been nearly a week since my last Volcano indulgence.

thirdform
22-01-2018, 11:24 PM
dream interpretation is weirdo shit i don't want to talk to a white guy about my recurring dream of fucking my secondary school teacher lmao.

luka
22-01-2018, 11:26 PM
lifes a bit weird though innit. i only did therapy for a bit but it was with an asian woman lol

baboon2004
23-01-2018, 01:03 AM
Suicide by men under 50 is now 1 of the leading causes of death for this demographic. If it was any other form of disease or disorder, it would be treated like an international crisis. But because of the all pervasive Guardian-obsessed "patriarchy" & the fact most men are disposable workhorses in the labour market, nothing is done. I can count 4 deaths by suicide in the last 18months by acquaintances, but until someone goes into their CMHT with guns or axes and NHS workers are taken out by the dozen, nothing will change. Thats not encouraging or supporting such actions, more the slow fragmentation of services, compliance in allowing underfunding to continue (consultants retire on insane pension levels), bad apples in key positions & bottle necks at every turn equating to one almighty clusterfuck.


Agree with everything else you say, but really, the undoubted male suicide crisis has nothing to do with ignoring this crisis to focus instead on patriarchal attitudes. It's almost the opposite - the continued fixation from men on maintaining fixed gender roles (which obviously disadvantages women massively; the less appreciated aspect being that men also suffer hugely from a system they in essence created) has to bear much of the responsibility, so that talking about one's feelings = a 'feminine' trait, rather than a human one, and stoicism in the face of any amount of emotional pain continues to be seen as 'male'. Men create this prison for themselves. Until men 'allow' other men to seek help for mental health issues by creating a more open culture of maleness (and not shaming them for it), then men will continue to kill themselves at alarming rates.

As you say, terrible underfunding and incompetence, as in so many areas, makes everything a lot worse.

baboon2004
23-01-2018, 01:07 AM
There's some person-centred therapists I know of who are kinda trying to fight a rearguard action here and put the research base together proving that other therapies are just as effective. Mick Cooper would be the most well known.


Do you have any links for the research, even if it's a work in progress? Trying to get psychotherapy funded (which is part of my job) is an epic battle due to the perception that 'there's no proof that it works', interested in any new weapons...

cwmbran-city
23-01-2018, 10:54 PM
Agree with everything else you say, but really, the undoubted male suicide crisis has nothing to do with ignoring this crisis to focus instead on patriarchal attitudes. It's almost the opposite - the continued fixation from men on maintaining fixed gender roles (which obviously disadvantages women massively; the less appreciated aspect being that men also suffer hugely from a system they in essence created) has to bear much of the responsibility, so that talking about one's feelings = a 'feminine' trait, rather than a human one, and stoicism in the face of any amount of emotional pain continues to be seen as 'male'. Men create this prison for themselves. Until men 'allow' other men to seek help for mental health issues by creating a more open culture of maleness (and not shaming them for it), then men will continue to kill themselves at alarming rates.

As you say, terrible underfunding and incompetence, as in so many areas, makes everything a lot worse.


patriarchal attitudes have been far more entrenched in the past, but there arent anywhere near the same the rates of correlation with suicide, not by a huge margin.

equally mental health services have never been so expansive (yet still sketchy as fuck).

yet essentially you're saying rates of male suicide are down to males suppressing emotions, that this is a patriarchal prison, stoically self-made & self-perpetuating = really?

in Britain the "system" isnt fit for purpose, its beyond broken, its shattered, so men dont know where to turn to and when they do their GP will default to low-level pharmacology/anti-depressants/benzos.

hence, one of the main fault-lines lies firmly within the remit of primary care - GP's are dismissive & prone to delaying referrals to CMHT's, even then if you DO get to see a primary care mental health counselor, chances are you wont see a consultant (maybe an inexperienced SHO straight out of uni if you're exceptionally lucky), you'll receive an inappropriately short course of CBT (10 one hr sessions is farcical) then get discharged, which begs the question who is diagnosing what & when?

the 4 suicides i've known were all trapped in a systemic labyrinth, all sought help repeatedly, all were rebuffed time & time again, NONE got thru to secondary care CMHT's & all were chemically coshed with inappropriate meds from various GP's compounded by never seeing the same GP twice....all 4 cases are now in some state or another under investigation by the Health Ombudsman....2 might give your argument some sense of cohesion, but 4?

mental health is a societal & political taboo, not simply a self-made male prison, because unless you experience the labyrinth that passes for "duty of care" personally & up-close as a "client" (or patient like McMurphy), you can never genuinely empathize with or recognize the scale of the problem.

to blame it on patriarchal attitudes is, from this human's perspective, naive at best &, sorry to say it, misguided identity-politics based "professional" misjudgement @ worst.

you need to pull your focus back, talk to mental health CPN's about why their burn-out rate is so high, study where the bottle-necks are & why they're so severe, the relationship these aspects have on the people who dont know the system they're seeking help from until they've spent years receiving inappropriate care & then reappraise how we can collectively save more souls from such a diabolical thicket of chaos.

scuse the tone, but the health-care system, its repeated under-funding by various political administrations & any semblance of workable reform, are the real culprits.

male traits? pull the other one.

baboon2004
24-01-2018, 10:05 AM
i'm just tired of men setting themselves up as the victim of some kind of conspiracy by liberals obsessed with the patriarchy (many of these liberals are presumably men - are they oppressing themselves? I don't understand), that's all. I have no idea why you're bringing gender identity politics into this, as though women get a better deal from the (terrible) mental health system?

I think I agree with you on most of your points about the awfulness of the mental health system, which I have seen in far too much close-up over the past 18 months. To add to your list of criticisms - in my experience, psychiatrists tend to be tunnel-vision buffoons, with no method/guiding principles beyond 'let's try drug B, since drug A didn't work'. But who do you think set up this system and allows it to continue - it wasn't created by a cabal of women!

Yet the system is not the only culprit. As I've seen throughout my life amongst family, friends and acquaintances, a major factor in male mental health problems is the shame associated with showing any kind of 'weakness'/inner emotional pain, stopping men from going to get help at an early stage. Obviously this doesn't apply to all men, but the generalisation has a lot of truth in it.

"mental health is a societal & political taboo" - absolutely, couldn't agree more. But it does operate differently according to gender, and this is something men have the power to change. To do this, rigid conceptions of personality traits linked to gender will have to be loosened.


patriarchal attitudes have been far more entrenched in the past, but there arent anywhere near the same the rates of correlation with suicide, not by a huge margin.

equally mental health services have never been so expansive (yet still sketchy as fuck).

yet essentially you're saying rates of male suicide are down to males suppressing emotions, that this is a patriarchal prison, stoically self-made & self-perpetuating = really?

in Britain the "system" isnt fit for purpose, its beyond broken, its shattered, so men dont know where to turn to and when they do their GP will default to low-level pharmacology/anti-depressants/benzos.

hence, one of the main fault-lines lies firmly within the remit of primary care - GP's are dismissive & prone to delaying referrals to CMHT's, even then if you DO get to see a primary care mental health counselor, chances are you wont see a consultant (maybe an inexperienced SHO straight out of uni if you're exceptionally lucky), you'll receive an inappropriately short course of CBT (10 one hr sessions is farcical) then get discharged, which begs the question who is diagnosing what & when?

the 4 suicides i've known were all trapped in a systemic labyrinth, all sought help repeatedly, all were rebuffed time & time again, NONE got thru to secondary care CMHT's & all were chemically coshed with inappropriate meds from various GP's compounded by never seeing the same GP twice....all 4 cases are now in some state or another under investigation by the Health Ombudsman....2 might give your argument some sense of cohesion, but 4?

mental health is a societal & political taboo, not simply a self-made male prison, because unless you experience the labyrinth that passes for "duty of care" personally & up-close as a "client" (or patient like McMurphy), you can never genuinely empathize with or recognize the scale of the problem.

to blame it on patriarchal attitudes is, from this human's perspective, naive at best &, sorry to say it, misguided identity-politics based "professional" misjudgement @ worst.

you need to pull your focus back, talk to mental health CPN's about why their burn-out rate is so high, study where the bottle-necks are & why they're so severe, the relationship these aspects have on the people who dont know the system they're seeking help from until they've spent years receiving inappropriate care & then reappraise how we can collectively save more souls from such a diabolical thicket of chaos.

scuse the tone, but the health-care system, its repeated under-funding by various political administrations & any semblance of workable reform, are the real culprits.

male traits? pull the other one.

cwmbran-city
27-01-2018, 08:01 PM
we'll have to agree to disagree

male stoicism isnt the cause of male suicide levels in Britain today just as patriarchy isnt the root cause of the problem either, stoicism isnt even a recognized personality trait out of the big 5, although conscientiousness is

imho its because the NHS doesnt recognize, plan for or demand financial support for the scale of the problem....if every CMHT consultant threatened the Govt with strike action, more would have been done, but collectively they sit on their hands, take the very tasty pay packages & pension options & continue to allow this festering sore to remain untreated

its a national disgrace, compared to France & Germany, Maybot's lot have promised more for mental health services, which is hardly a guarantee

you're preaching to the converted about medication "options", they're cheaper than employing therapists after all, my bone of contention is how these are screened & administered by GP's @ primary care stages by professionals who arent specialized, who ignore key data, who seek to throw a blanket coverage over a client "presenting" certain symptoms (i fkn loathe the term "present", surely it should be "is"?) & then stall & stall & stall....primary care is one almighty bottle neck & only a very lucky few get referred on to secondary care services

the region i was born & semi-raised in currently has one of the highest levels of anti-depressant medications administered in the whole of Britain & it certainly isnt the sketchiest, part of the problem here again lies with GP's @ primary care level, because Aneurin Bevan Health Board has some of the better secondary care CMHT's in the country, its just not enough referrals are made for the appropriate support, a vicious feedback loop indeed

so whether you look at a regional case study or a national one, its the gulf in-between someone who knows they have problems & how the medical profession then choose to treat that person, it seems that men will (to make a generalization) put up with more incompetence because no-one outside of the NHS really knows the structures in place to improve mental health (outside of charities & advocacy groups), so they wait & they wait & they wait & then bang.....as women are more agreeable than men you might expect them to be the bias indicator for suicide demographics because they would possibly trust their GP more, but that isnt supported by suicide demographics

thats why i find the notion of some of the gender traits you included (which would defer to & include aspects of identity politics) as a tad problematic

if you're on the frontline, working in this sector, day in, day out, i tip my cap to you, because of the stresses these careers induce & the structural inefficiencies that everyone from Govt down seem to want to bury in the graves of victims, keep on keeping on

2 local clinicians who ARE pushing therapies & treatments forward in new & encouraging directions are listed below, Professor Jonathan Bisson @ Cardiff & Dr Ben Sessa @ Bristol (the former is a fuckin saint!):

http://www.ncmh.info/3mdr-treatment-resistant-ptsd/

https://www.google.co.uk/search?ei=hedsWtPmDMGugAbJpomIAw&q=3mdr+therapy&oq=3mdr+&gs_l=psy-ab.1.1.0l5j0i67k1j0l2.9619.9619.0.11980.1.1.0.0.0. 0.99.99.1.1.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..0.1.98....0.-xrcEp_bVvI

https://www.google.co.uk/search?source=hp&ei=UuZsWo7qGcG4kwWry4jQDQ&q=dr+ben+sessa&oq=dr+ben+se&gs_l=psy-ab.1.0.0l10.1297.10340.0.12903.10.8.0.0.0.0.327.97 0.4j3j0j1.8.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..2.8.959.0..46j0i131k1j0i10k1j0i46k1.0.7sbQRpP_ ey8

edit: blame the edible......both researchers have trialed MDMA & Psilocybin for ptsd, addiction & related traumas, with scope & range thats slowly building momentum

good to see these approaches explore such innovative paths in the face of so much institutional resistance

Bisson set up http://www.ukpts.co.uk/ ....indispensable, there are usually a raft of papers from a bi-annual conference archived, the scale & spectrum of submissions are recommended, couldnt do the wall of advocacy work piling up here w/out it

DannyL
29-01-2018, 09:59 PM
Sorry just seen this


Do you have any links for the research, even if it's a work in progress? Trying to get psychotherapy funded (which is part of my job) is an epic battle due to the perception that 'there's no proof that it works', interested in any new weapons...

Here you go, here's one of Cooper's PDFs

https://www.pccs-books.co.uk/downloads/PCCS_talkMIckCooper.pdf

Apparently the new (came out late last year) edition of his "Working at Relational Depth in Counselling & Psychotherapy" has up to date research in it. I'd drop him a line if I were you - based at Roehampton Uni (I think)

What's the job?

baboon2004
30-01-2018, 03:22 PM
@Cwmbran - I think we agree on a fair amount of things here - I just can't see men en masse as an ignored/powerless group of people who couldn't improve the conditions for their mental health through cultural changes in the way they relate to each other. Obviously that is a massive over-simplication of a difficult topic, but.

baboon2004
30-01-2018, 03:30 PM
Sorry just seen this

Here you go, here's one of Cooper's PDFs

https://www.pccs-books.co.uk/downloads/PCCS_talkMIckCooper.pdf

Apparently the new (came out late last year) edition of his "Working at Relational Depth in Counselling & Psychotherapy" has up to date research in it. I'd drop him a line if I were you - based at Roehampton Uni (I think)

What's the job?

Brilliant, thanks Danny. I'll take a look at that book too, and yeah, definitely worth dropping him a line, good point.

It's for an organisation that supports young people leaving care in a therapeutic setting. I've been sending out quite a few funding applications for the therapy itself recently, and these can struggle to meet the relentless appetite for quantitative stats. And evidently there are lots of problems even if stats are available, in that things can (seem to) get worse before they get better as a result of lowering defences, and that positive outcomes aren't always apparent to the person undertaking therapy until a long time afterwards.

cwmbran-city
30-01-2018, 06:17 PM
@Cwmbran - I think we agree on a fair amount of things here - I just can't see men en masse as an ignored/powerless group of people who couldn't improve the conditions for their mental health through cultural changes in the way they relate to each other. Obviously that is a massive over-simplication of a difficult topic, but.


theres a fundamental disagreement here because you're implying male stoicism, or pride, or ignorance, or belligerence, or male "culture" of avoidance (head-in-sand-burying or whichever way you seek to articulate it in general), are the inherent root causes of the problem.

they're not - its a broken system, in clear denial about the true extent of problems & the demands being made upon it, which raises fundamental questions about the ethics of our current health system, compounded by being a system which society as a whole truly needs.

if it was 1850, you'd have a point, but men have never been in a better position to talk openly about their emotions, express them honestly & have their concerns addressed, but the health system is merciless in dismissing these personal concerns, ruthless in prescribing poorly monitored medications & consistently negligent in referring men to the appropriate services available....there are no "sign-posts" & they're rarely provided in a crisis...further accentuated by pvt sector predators who feel £100 hourly is justifiable in the current market because demand is so high & they know the NHS can't cope.

the irony is such public services ARE available, but only a lucky few get anywhere close to being treated appropriately, because of the above factors, because of bottlenecks at every turn, which have already been discussed.

imho every school, at primary & secondary age levels, should have trained psychotherapists in place to flag up potential candidates for therapeutic intervention, because the warning signs are clear for a raft of people who are ignored presenting with various symptoms, but would that ever happen? would it fk.

another eg: how is any male of any age, whose talent has been overlooked by schools, whose psychological injuries can not be fully understood by said individual or evaluated thoroughly by the medical professionals he seeks support from, be in any position to change anything except to go to his GP, be given inadequate medication or receive the statutory 10 one hr CBT sessions thru primary care counselors, and then discharged & dismissed?

thru a hashtag, #ustoo style, social media campaign?

by petitioning MP's & a Govt who simply dont care?

every significant mental health charity is aware of the problem, but even they can not make up the difference in a grotesquely underfunded sector.

patriarchy might be a partial factor, but only a historical one - as for the present day situation, mental health service provision is in need of a full national audit, parliamentary review & a house select committee founded to begin to untangle this ungodly mess & even then very little would change because our political landlords are as inept as our snr clinical professionals...in denial, in servitude of self & ultimately incompetent.

if that hasnt put you off enough, ukpts have uploaded a batch of papers from their Dec '17 conference in Cardiff....some outstanding research, but how much of it is put into practice?

and therein lies the rub:

http://www.ukpts.co.uk/previous-ukpts-events.html

luka
30-01-2018, 06:26 PM
well the root cause is clearly not the NHS. the root cause is whatever is causing unbearable suffering in the first place. a fit for purpose NHS could and would save some of these people from suicide definitely, but the inadequate version we have is not the cause of severe depression and other mental problems. those casues lie elsewhere.

luka
30-01-2018, 06:32 PM
it doesnt sound any more crazy to me to locate the causes of todays plague of depression and anxiety in societal structures and attitudes than it would be to do the same for the Victorians pandemic of hysteria.

luka
30-01-2018, 06:35 PM
not that i would want to reduce it all down to the word 'patriarchy' that would be glib. but there's clearly a conglomeration of forces acting in today's western world that is at the bottom of this and even a fully functioning health service would only be in a better place to deal with it. it couldnt address the casues or prevent it from happening.

baboon2004
30-01-2018, 06:56 PM
I don't know who you think is running the NHS! It's not aliens - mainly men. To me, it seems as though you're talking about class as a fault line of who gets fucked by the NHS and who doesn't (which I would very much agree with), rather than gender, so I'm not sure why you insist upon writing in gender terms. And if that's not the case, then I'm completely confused as to how you think a broken system treats women.

That the system is undoubtedly broken, can and does co-exist with male stoicism (or indeed, whatever you want to call it). Many men feel shame over perceived weakness because it conflicts so jarringly with a perceived 'gender ideal' (and we certainly live in a world of rigidly enforced gender ideals), and shame is the number one thing that will stop someone from talking honestly.


theres a fundamental disagreement here because you're implying male stoicism, or pride, or ignorance, or belligerence, or male "culture" of avoidance (head-in-sand-burying or whichever way you seek to articulate it in general), are the inherent root causes of the problem.

they're not - its a broken system, in clear denial about the true extent of problems & the demands being made upon it, which raises fundamental questions about the ethics of our current health system, compounded by being a system which society as a whole truly needs.

if it was 1850, you'd have a point, but men have never been in a better position to talk openly about their emotions, express them honestly & have their concerns addressed, but the health system is merciless in dismissing these personal concerns, ruthless in prescribing poorly monitored medications & consistently negligent in referring men to the appropriate services available....there are no "sign-posts" & they're rarely provided in a crisis...further accentuated by pvt sector predators who feel £100 hourly is justifiable in the current market because demand is so high & they know the NHS can't cope.

the irony is such public services ARE available, but only a lucky few get anywhere close to being treated appropriately, because of the above factors, because of bottlenecks at every turn, which have already been discussed.

baboon2004
30-01-2018, 06:58 PM
not that i would want to reduce it all down to the word 'patriarchy' that would be glib. but there's clearly a conglomeration of forces acting in today's western world that is at the bottom of this and even a fully functioning health service would only be in a better place to deal with it. it couldnt address the casues or prevent it from happening.

race-to-the-bottom capitalism must be a front-runner

cwmbran-city
30-01-2018, 08:01 PM
for Luka:

causes & effects are very different but clearly interdependent subjects, prevention>cure, so i've tried to focus on the latter to highlight the dearth in what's available thru public health provision, the implications of these & because there's a clear lack in public knowledge of (rather than engagement with) where to go/who to ask to see/legal parameters etc, which greatly exacerbate said problems.

granted, this is a tad back to front, but the NHS has been around for approx 70years and yet no other area of healthcare is as overlooked, mismanaged or neglected as mental health care in this cuntry.

why?

snr consultants understand all too well the extent of the problems under their juristiction & have done for the last couple of decades, but there is no professional outcry, not at a level you might expect from hundreds of snr clinicians who are quite happy accepting significant financial benefits for overseeing an abortion of a system, a system than continues to hemorrhage & creak.

would this degree of incompetence be allowed to fester in cancer care, HIV treatment or palliative care? never in a million years, because those pathways are funded according to need &, partially, to maintain society's civilized veneer.

from what i've witnessed up close over 3 decades+ dealing with attempts to get ptsd diagnosed properly, treated appropriately + all that goes with that, but also from seeing friends lose their way in labyrinths underpinned and perpetuated by medical professionals deliberately & purposefully obfuscating (mis)information, which therapy options are available, various treatment and recovery plans lost thru institutional bs....at some juncture the NHS has to hold its hand up & say not only can it do better, is also needs a budget to match current & future projections.

the Mid-Staffordshire inquiry showed how a regional system, left to mismanage itself, could devastate thousands of lives, yet mental health care provision is a national, not regional, scandal.

this leads back to my point that mental health is one of the deepest rabbit holes in terms of societal taboos.

hence, where do you even begin with causes?

overwork, stress, divorce, childhood trauma, changes in employment structures/sectors, the astronomical (& geographic) wealth divide, depreciating levels of human agency in the face of all these.....the list is metaphorically endless....vast tracts of knowledge, books, phd's & research can do little to initiate change if the political AND medical will to reform the system doesnt exist.....and right now the medical will isnt there to the degree it should be.

the brutal truth is there ARE members of the NHS who could give less of a fk about who lives, or who dies, or who gets sectioned, or which care-plan should be initiated and at what stage, might sound harsh & a bit emotionally loaded, but its an evidence-based position.

those in positions to solve the effects of any causes dont have the stomach, appetite or vision to enact the changes necessary &, as society & leading clinicians dont have an operating system upgrade imminent or ready to initiate change wholesale, the causes & effects will only continue to grow.

the NHS is as responsible as its political masters here, if not more so, because while certain NHS strikes have focused debate in recent memory, nothing as drastic has occurred with the mental health sector, a sector we ultimately pay for in more ways than one.

cwmbran-city
30-01-2018, 08:10 PM
I don't know who you think is running the NHS! It's not aliens - mainly men. To me, it seems as though you're talking about class as a fault line of who gets fucked by the NHS and who doesn't (which I would very much agree with), rather than gender, so I'm not sure why you insist upon writing in gender terms. And if that's not the case, then I'm completely confused as to how you think a broken system treats women.

That the system is undoubtedly broken, can and does co-exist with male stoicism (or indeed, whatever you want to call it). Many men feel shame over perceived weakness because it conflicts so jarringly with a perceived 'gender ideal' (and we certainly live in a world of rigidly enforced gender ideals), and shame is the number one thing that will stop someone from talking honestly.

There have never been more women in the NHS, employed at all levels across all services. I'd re-evaluate your position on this front first & foremost

Secondly, males across society can & do talk about their mental health, never more so, the problem lies with who is (or isnt) listening and the social norms that underpin causes, eg Luka's astute note on race to the abyss capitalism.

To blame men for NHS mismanagement or unwillingness to reveal shaming traits or weakness, is naive in the extreme.

droid
30-01-2018, 08:17 PM
I wouldn't deny that mental health services (or lack thereof) are a major contributing factor in male suicide, but there's one inescapable fact that supports Baboon's argument, or at least points to other factors. Globally men are three times as likely to commit suicide than women. In Ireland, 80% of all suicides are men. The only country where female suicides outrank males is China, and thats marginal.


The most clearly outstanding difference between regions was reflected in the male-female rate ratio of suicide—in the European Region it was 4 and in the Americas 3.6 while in the Eastern Mediterranean region it was 1.1 and in the Western Pacific region 1.3. Among males in the 15–29 age-group the suicide rate was the highest in the SE Asian region. The lead was tied in the 30–44 age-group but in the 45–59 age-group European males had the highest suicide rate. For ages above 60 males from the Western Pacific region had the highest suicide rate. Females from SE Asia had a remarkably high suicide rate among 15–29-year-olds and they led also in the next age group. From age 45 the highest female suicide rates were in the Western Pacific region.

Data about latest available suicide rates, which have been measured in individual countries and compiled by the WHO are in Table 3. The leading country was Lithuania with a suicide rate of 34.1 per 100,000 inhabitants. Also among males the suicide rate was the highest in Lithuania at 61.2 but in Russia and Belarus it was also prominent. Among females South Korea with a suicide rate of 22.1 was clearly at the top. Male-female rate ratio was the highest in Puerto Rico (6.6), Slovakia (6.6) and Poland (6.4), while it was the lowest in China (0.9), which is currently the only country where the rate for females is higher than for males.

The countries, which contributed most to the number of suicides in the world, were China, India, Russia, USA, Japan, and South Korea

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3367275/

So, seems to be a complex situation where economics, social roles & cultural differences all play a part.

baboon2004
30-01-2018, 08:51 PM
There have never been more women in the NHS, employed at all levels across all services. I'd re-evaluate your position on this front first & foremost

Secondly, males across society can & do talk about their mental health, never more so, the problem lies with who is (or isnt) listening and the social norms that underpin causes, eg Luka's astute note on race to the abyss capitalism.

To blame men for NHS mismanagement or unwillingness to reveal shaming traits or weakness, is naive in the extreme.

http://www.publicfinance.co.uk/news/2017/03/women-underrepresented-nhs-roles No need to re-evaluate, but cheers anyway.

I don't think what I'm saying is naive - in my view what's naive is rather to blame a nebulous 'system' that somehow mysteriously is targeting men as a group. Of course I'm not blaming all men for NHS mismanagement, just saying it makes zero sense to paint men as a group as victims when they are disproportionately represented at decision-making level, as they always have been. Put in class terms, as said, the thrust of your argument makes much more sense.
And I'm certainly not blaming individual men for unwillingness to reveal shaming traits or weakness - but there is something in the ossification of gender 'roles' that makes male suicide more prevalent. I don't think avoiding this fact by blaming the system, as shitty as it is, is going to lead to much progress.

And that's my astute note about race to the bottom capitalism, thank you very much! Although Luka did make some astute points too.

Anyways, I'm going to bow out there because this is going nowhere.

Benny B
30-01-2018, 09:15 PM
not that i would want to reduce it all down to the word 'patriarchy' that would be glib. but there's clearly a conglomeration of forces acting in today's western world that is at the bottom of this and even a fully functioning health service would only be in a better place to deal with it. it couldnt address the casues or prevent it from happening.

Don't think its glib really. You might refine it and say 'masculinity' (and 'femininity' since this is also a male construction).

Like, people talk about "toxic" masculinity, when thats really a redundancy - the very idea of masculinity is toxic because its a set of stereotypical roles and behaviours assigned to a sex class. Those who do not fulfill these roles are punished very harshly and made to suffer.

thirdform
31-01-2018, 12:45 AM
do people still subscribe to sex class feminism? i thought it was irredeemable when compared with transfeminism...

im no expert tho.

cwmbran-city
31-01-2018, 01:01 AM
http://www.publicfinance.co.uk/news/2017/03/women-underrepresented-nhs-roles No need to re-evaluate, but cheers anyway.

I don't think what I'm saying is naive - in my view what's naive is rather to blame a nebulous 'system' that somehow mysteriously is targeting men as a group. Of course I'm not blaming all men for NHS mismanagement, just saying it makes zero sense to paint men as a group as victims when they are disproportionately represented at decision-making level, as they always have been. Put in class terms, as said, the thrust of your argument makes much more sense.
And I'm certainly not blaming individual men for unwillingness to reveal shaming traits or weakness - but there is something in the ossification of gender 'roles' that makes male suicide more prevalent. I don't think avoiding this fact by blaming the system, as shitty as it is, is going to lead to much progress.

And that's my astute note about race to the bottom capitalism, thank you very much! Although Luka did make some astute points too.

Anyways, I'm going to bow out there because this is going nowhere.

I dont think the system is targeting men as a group, where did you get that from? If anything the system is failing to recognize & address the demographics, i'd go as far as to say ignoring the suicide demographics. This has been derailed partially through your own insistence on the significance of patriarchy, which i'll do my best to dispel below & as politely as possible

As males do make up the majority of suicides & within a specific age range......

https://www.google.co.uk/search?source=hp&ei=KBJxWpaAFoWsU6arpLgN&q=male+uk+suicide+rate&oq=male+uk+suicide+rate&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0j0i22i30k1l4.1153.9628.0.11395.21.19.0.1.1. 0.139.1350.17j2.19.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..1.15.1115.0..0i131k1j0i131i46k1j46i131k1.0.Tad 3sls483s

.....why would the sex of their care co-coordinators have any bearing on the quality of their care & why would that lessen the impact of institutional incompetence & neglect on those people who suffer, who choose to end their lives & the impact of that upon their families & friends?

Do men look out for men because they're men, or do they fuck it up because they're men? This patriarchal, Neo-Marxist foundation paradigm is ideological claptrap.

The structural problems within the mental health sector are nothing to do with the sex or gender of its practitioners. Its broad, embedded institutional incompetence thats been going on for years.

You seem to be placing the burden of responsibility of male suicides on male traits compounded by patriarchal health structures, which i whole-heartedly disagree with on a range of issues, primarily because of institutional neglect, professional self-interest & profound incompetence.

Yes men may be more emotionally introspective, but the causes of suicide are far more complex than wanting to avoid showing weakness.....
when healthcare failures are repeated throughout an individual's journey through life & mental health services available are so poor or inadequately managed that a suicide results, a fair degree of accountability & the overall burden of responsibility are fixed on the role of a patient's care provider. I'd rather see someone sectioned, than dead. The frequency & disproportionate distribution of men in this category is irrefutable & to blame patriarchal care structures is not only missing the point entirely, it reads like the worst elements of Guardian hocus-pocus.

Class may impact on a client's ability to pay for pvt treatment, it may improve an individual's chances to draw on financial resources from unemployment during relapses, it might mean more fundamentally that growing up in a deprived area increases your chances of deterioration in mental health during key life moments due to deprivation, but this notion of patriarchy as the cause of NHS bs & that there arent victims of suicide because of their sex/gender is absurd. The numbers are a national disgrace, but you appear to dismiss that as a male problem caused by men & perpetuated by a male-dominated care system. I can dredge up the numbers of clinical psychologists, psychiatrists, therapists, counselors & GP's which might take a week, but the sex-differential for snr clinicians down to SHO's & CPN's in mental health has never been lower.

I work in mental health advocacy & archaeology, 2 very different fields. The onslaught of cases for clients with mental health issues receiving unethical, inappropriate & negligent standards of care, are astronomical & while the work we do doesnt pick up where suicides leave off, we are at the thin end of the wedge in terms of picking up the pieces of people who cant even trust a consultant, SHO or CPN to tell them the truth without an independent advocate present. Gender has nothing to do with the care-plan co-coordinators we meet, its entirely irrelevant in mental health, because so many are women & we're talking about the dozen or so consultants who direct mental health services within the health boards under our remit.

We are seeing increasing numbers of men within the suicide age group demographic. Many have sought help, repeatedly, over many years. The cases are complex & somewhere between 3/5 to 3/4 go on to the health ombudsman.

Men are seeking help, but the structural incapacitates are compounded by recovery programs informed by professionals rather than by survivors views.

Its a fkn shit-storm of behemoth proportions & will only get worse in the short term because of Brexit & NHS staff leaving in ever increasing numbers.

This paper gives one of a very limited number of appraisals of an adult mental health service in south Wales, the problems it faces, the challenges it identifies & prioritizes, put my rant aside & you'll see how refining one tiny slither of a nation's mental health care provision can be a model for a broader national review of ALL CMHT's:

(Elanor Maybury and Lucy Johnstone – Introducing Trauma-Informed Care in an AMH Service in South Wales - Challenges and Successes)

http://www.ukpts.co.uk/previous-ukpts-events_36_3109208224.pdf

To get all pretentious, i'll quote Burroughs - "Control is controlled by its need to control". This is hegemony, not patriarchy.

Benny B
31-01-2018, 08:37 AM
cwmbran, are you saying that men are just naturally more inclined to commit suicide than women? Like, there's a male-suicide gene or something? It's just you seem keen on pointing out that men commit suicide more than women, yet the possible causes you suggest (overwork, stress, economic inequality) affect women more than men.

Mr. Tea
31-01-2018, 09:26 AM
If society expects more of men than of women, then it also punishes them harder when they don't succeed, perhaps?

Men may make up 68% of MPs in the Commons, but they also make up 84% of rough sleepers, for example.

luka
31-01-2018, 09:59 AM
Don't think its glib really. You might refine it and say 'masculinity' (and 'femininity' since this is also a male construction).

Like, people talk about "toxic" masculinity, when thats really a redundancy - the very idea of masculinity is toxic because its a set of stereotypical roles and behaviours assigned to a sex class. Those who do not fulfill these roles are punished very harshly and made to suffer.

i think it's glib because, well, imagine someone coming to you, well Benny I actually want to end it all I'm sufffering so much in this world i can no longer bear it nad i don't understand, it's all beyond my capacity to understand, i can't take it any more

and you go

oh yeah right. that's just patriarchy mate.

it's just maybe not that helpful

Benny B
31-01-2018, 10:26 AM
and you go

oh yeah right. that's just patriarchy mate.

it's just maybe not that helpful

Yeah, but who actually said this though? Not you, not me, not babboon. Of course it would be glib if that was all you said. And nobody is recommending saying that as an intervention in an individual suicide risk case, that would be absurd.

What I see happening quite a lot (not just here) is male suicide statistics getting bandied around with a lot of seriously unexamined assumptions as to how they are to be interpreted. And, unfortunately, they are often employed very cynically to shore up some very dodgy beliefs.

So, you get stuff like this, from guys like Warren Farrell

"The subtitle of the book is "Why Men are the Disposable Sex." Farrell argues that historically both sexes were disposable in the service of survival: women risked death in childbirth; men risked death in war. However, Farrell notes, there is a key difference: women's disposability emanated more from biology; men's expendability required socialization.[5]

Farrell observes various characteristics of modern US society, such as the tendency to assign higher-risk jobs - soldier, firefighter, coal miner, and so on - to men: almost all of the most hazardous professions are all-male, and segments within professions have higher percentages of men as their level of hazard increases. Other statistics, in conjunction with the lack of public outcry or mobilization around them, point in the same direction of male expendability. Men are victims of violent crime twice as often as women and are "three times more likely to be murder victims". Suicide rates are much higher for men than for women. While the death rates for breast cancer and prostate cancer are comparable, the US spends six times as much on breast cancer.[6]

These statistics, Farrell suggests, can only be explained if US society places greater value on the lives of women than of men."

Now, I'm not saying anyone here is taking it that far, but suicide figures are being used to demonstrate that the patriarchy is just a thing of the past, invented by the guardian, totally dismissed at the outset. Dodgy assumptions.

luka
31-01-2018, 10:32 AM
yeah those statistics are enlisted in bad arguments. that's true.

sadmanbarty
31-01-2018, 10:40 AM
I actually want to end it all I'm sufffering so much in this world i can no longer bear it nad i don't understand, it's all beyond my capacity to understand, i can't take it any more

corpsey dm'd you too?

luka
31-01-2018, 10:51 AM
ah poor corpsey! get well soon corpsey we love you and are sending a thousand rays of healing cosmic love and compassion directly into your gullet.

luka
31-01-2018, 10:53 AM
patriarchy is one of those words that are incredibly useful in terms of elucidating structural inequality but are liable to become blunt instruments and one word answers for all the world's woes. that's the point at which it becomes glib. the point at which it becomes an excuse for not thinking.

Benny B
31-01-2018, 11:03 AM
patriarchy is one of those words that are incredibly useful in terms of elucidating structural inequality but are liable to become blunt instruments and one word answers for all the world's woes. that's the point at which it becomes glib. the point at which it becomes an excuse for not thinking.

Sure, but I think the bigger problem is men hear that one word and just switch off, dont listen to the explanation, deny it exists. I think we need to keep using it though.

Benny B
31-01-2018, 11:08 AM
I mean I dont really see anyone using it as a one word answer to all the worlds woes.

luka
31-01-2018, 11:09 AM
im not proposing we throw it in the bin. just pointing out the problem with these grand, big picture, diagnostic words. capitalism is another good one. there's a tendency for their definitions (always vague and ill-defined at the best of times) to elide into 'everything' or 'the way things are'

luka
31-01-2018, 11:11 AM
https://www.boston.com/culture/lifestyle/2018/01/17/2-new-ax-throwing-bars-are-coming-to-the-boston-area-in-2018?s_campaign=bcom:socialflow:facebook&utm_content=buffer70a02&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer


A business dedicated to ax-throwing and drinking beer sounds like something you’d find in a remote Midwestern town, a rural curiosity run by guys who look like Paul Bunyan. But ax-throwing venues are a growing trend, and the Boston area will soon have two of them.

One of the places arriving in the area, Urban Axes, is part of a larger chain based in Philadelphia that has plans to open in Somerville’s Union Square sometime this summer. Courtney Osgood, a representative for the company, wouldn’t confirm the space’s address, but she said that it will have a capacity of 80 to 100 people. She said the spot will be less focused on the bar aspect and more on the ax throwing, with three to four arenas, each holding four targets.

Mr. Tea
31-01-2018, 11:35 AM
Now, I'm not saying anyone here is taking it that far, but suicide figures are being used to demonstrate that the patriarchy is just a thing of the past, invented by the guardian, totally dismissed at the outset. Dodgy assumptions.

I don't think that's true at all - it looks to me like cwmbran_city is just saying your invocation of patriarchy as a sufficient explanation for the male suicide epidemic and the failure of the NHS to contain it is inadequate, which I think is reasonable.

sadmanbarty
31-01-2018, 11:41 AM
I'll see if I can just avoid getting into any heavy political discussions because that's always when the aggro starts.
.

luka
31-01-2018, 11:43 AM
i was just killing myself laughing at the same thing haha lol

luka
31-01-2018, 11:43 AM
sucked in

Mr. Tea
31-01-2018, 11:46 AM
.

Yeah. I know.

Benny B
31-01-2018, 11:50 AM
it looks to me like cwmbran_city is just saying your invocation of patriarchy as a sufficient explanation ...

Lol when did I ever say this?

Mr. Tea
31-01-2018, 11:50 AM
454

luka
31-01-2018, 11:57 AM
lool that's your finest moment. you'll never top that. might as well retire for real now.

Mr. Tea
31-01-2018, 12:06 PM
nice knowing you guys!

(edit: jk, I'm obviously going to be here until the heat-death of the universe)

Mr. Tea
31-01-2018, 12:22 PM
Lol when did I ever say this?

Well baboon articulated it most explicitly in this thread, though you've been heading in a similar direction:


...the undoubted male suicide crisis has nothing to do with ignoring this crisis to focus instead on patriarchal attitudes. It's almost the opposite - the continued fixation from men on maintaining fixed gender roles (which obviously disadvantages women massively; the less appreciated aspect being that men also suffer hugely from a system they in essence created)...

Sounds like there's been a mutual misunderstanding because c_c only said he doesn't think patriarchal attitudes have that big an effect in the male suicide phenomenon or in the present mismanagement of the NHS, and not - as you said - that it's "a thing of that past" in general.

Benny B
31-01-2018, 02:20 PM
Well baboon articulated it most explicitly in this thread, though you've been heading in a similar direction:

.

Nobody said or articulated anything of the sort

Benny B
31-01-2018, 02:22 PM
Sounds like there's been a mutual misunderstanding because c_c only said he doesn't think patriarchal attitudes have that big an effect in the male suicide phenomenon or in the present mismanagement of the NHS, and not - as you said - that it's "a thing of that past" in general.

A mutual misunderstanding, huh? Well, maybe...

cwmbran-city
31-01-2018, 02:37 PM
cwmbran, are you saying that men are just naturally more inclined to commit suicide than women? Like, there's a male-suicide gene or something? It's just you seem keen on pointing out that men commit suicide more than women, yet the possible causes you suggest (overwork, stress, economic inequality) affect women more than men.

its clear what i'm saying, read between the lines & then all will "seem" as it should be, seem?

there's enough there for you to excavate thru, if you can be arsed, or you could spend a small portion of your day googling around various sources who will all unreservedly confirm the same thing......that death by suicide is in the majority of case samples reviewed indicative of a male demographic around a certain age bracket

if you'd like it spelled for you, i'd check Luka's point about race to the infested chancre sore pit of capitalism, compounded by a health service unfit for purpose

fkn genes? come come Sir, you're better than that



i think it's glib because, well, imagine someone coming to you, well Benny I actually want to end it all I'm sufffering so much in this world i can no longer bear it nad i don't understand, it's all beyond my capacity to understand, i can't take it any more

and you go

oh yeah right. that's just patriarchy mate.

it's just maybe not that helpful


exactly

patriarchy is the latest buzz word of an increasingly angry left-wing agitation group who misrepresent key social problems by blanketing them with this catch-all terminology

it doesnt get to the core of this specific issue & serves to misrepresent already muddy waters....the fact its spouted by someone who works in directing funding for new innovative therapeutic research methods is mind boggling

patriarchy?

ffs

if you work on as many cases of medical negligence & have to pick up the pieces of as much professional incompetence & mess as i do, the bigger picture would start to seep thru, but until people turn for help with their mental health society as a whole has no idea just how fragmented Britain's mental health services really are

so, if someone, anyone, male or female, goes to their GP and says, as above "i'm thinking of ending it all Dr Benny", chances are that GP will dose them with an inadequate anti-depressant, delay referral to a CMHT because of waiting lists, which may just be the start of said patient's problems, and from there suicide risks become elevated, because theres a galaxy sized gap between what a GP can or will do & being sectioned.....that is the real abyss & until you're forced to navigate it nothing else compares

capitalism is the main culprit, vast swathes of post-industrial service sector industries, people looking for help from a heath service that simply doesnt want to know (as an institution)

parenthesis - some of society's purest form of angels work in the health sector & there are angels in CMHT's, but they are leaving the service at record levels due to stress, because of structural incapacity, because of a management culture that preaches "do more with less and delay, delay, delay, just look at the waiting lists...." & now the capstone of Brexit

if anyone here wants to help or raise their levels of understanding, try volunteering for 1hr a week at your local MIND and record what you see

only empathy can generate real understanding & i see little of that here

Benny B
31-01-2018, 03:56 PM
death by suicide is in the majority of case samples reviewed indicative of a male demographic around a certain age bracket



Wtf, man? literally nobody is disputing this

Benny B
31-01-2018, 04:35 PM
if you'd like it spelled for you, i'd check Luka's point about race to the infested chancre sore pit of capitalism,

Actually it was bboon who said this, so who are you beefing with exactly? You're the one who's going off on one without reading what other people are saying properly

cwmbran-city
31-01-2018, 11:01 PM
to imply with comedic tongue in cheek irony or whether your motivation to drop a genetic misnomer in was to rile, thats what i was replying to, hence the repetition.

if that riles you, address it like an adult, because its an adult subject & its just possible, just, that other people commenting know what they're talking about.

if you work on the frontline in mental health, respect, if you dont & throw genetic bs into such a discussion followed by ridiculing someone, dont expect to be taken seriously as an adult on this specific subject subsequently.

over to you Dr B.

thirdform
31-01-2018, 11:32 PM
im not proposing we throw it in the bin. just pointing out the problem with these grand, big picture, diagnostic words. capitalism is another good one. there's a tendency for their definitions (always vague and ill-defined at the best of times) to elide into 'everything' or 'the way things are'


Reserve army of labour, surplus value and impersonal domination by the commodity form can explain a lot though re a political economy of mh. and social reproduction can help in the understanding of how patriarchy is able to sustain itself — to decouple the two is wrongheaded tho ime.

But for most people leftists included, capitalism is either an antipathy to consumerist culture or dissatisfaction with management rather than a set of social relations.

luka
01-02-2018, 12:13 AM
agree with all that

cwmbran-city
01-02-2018, 01:47 AM
hitting the Volcano helps

never in the field of special-fx consumption was so little expended on so stoned

Benny B
01-02-2018, 06:50 AM
to imply with comedic tongue in cheek irony or whether your motivation to drop a genetic misnomer in was to rile, thats what i was replying to, hence the repetition.

if that riles you, address it like an adult, because its an adult subject & its just possible, just, that other people commenting know what they're talking about.

if you work on the frontline in mental health, respect, if you dont & throw genetic bs into such a discussion followed by ridiculing someone, dont expect to be taken seriously as an adult on this specific subject subsequently.

over to you Dr B.

I didn't ask you intending to rile, and I'm not riled. Slightly exasperated maybe.

Lots of people do have biological determinist assumptions, so I guess it's good to know that you think the genetic thing is bs. However, if you read what I said, your explanations regartding lack of funding, interest, capitalism et etc are all well and good, nobody was disputing them, but they don't explain the disparity between male and female suicide numbers. Baboon offered some good ideas as to why that might be (and shone a light on some important contributing factors to poor mental health in general) and you couldn't have been more dismissive.

baboon2004
01-02-2018, 10:48 AM
Lol this thread has been well and truly derailed. I was responding initially to this comment by Cwmbran, who was the person who introduced 'patriarchy' into this discussion (I never mentioned the word except in quoting him), but now seems to have completely forgotten this and is railing against its use!:

"Suicide by men under 50 is now 1 of the leading causes of death for this demographic. If it was any other form of disease or disorder, it would be treated like an international crisis. But because of the all pervasive Guardian-obsessed "patriarchy" & the fact most men are disposable workhorses in the labour market, nothing is done."

It's very well established that men are considerably less likely to seek help from mental health services (look it up). This was then distorted as suggesting that I was appealing to some kind of natural 'gender traits', whereas my point was the opposite - that gender is socialised, and therefore the traits associated with it are only contingent and can be changed. By men.

I never said - obviously - that there aren't many other factors that contribute towards high incidences of male suicide. But in invoking male suicide in the first place as a special case, we are talking about the differences between men and women, and not about factors that equally affect them, such as a broken mental health system.

Tea, genuinely good to see you back here! (but please read what I actually said)

baboon2004
01-02-2018, 10:52 AM
so, if someone, anyone, male or female, goes to their GP and says, as above "i'm thinking of ending it all Dr Benny", chances are that GP will dose them with an inadequate anti-depressant, delay referral to a CMHT because of waiting lists, which may just be the start of said patient's problems, and from there suicide risks become elevated, because theres a galaxy sized gap between what a GP can or will do & being sectioned.....that is the real abyss & until you're forced to navigate it nothing else compares

capitalism is the main culprit, vast swathes of post-industrial service sector industries, people looking for help from a heath service that simply doesnt want to know (as an institution)


and as I've pointed out to you before - and been rebuffed for the purposes of continuing an argument - we agree on a lot of things, such as the above. Obviously so because we've both had experience of the same screwed-up system.

You hit it on the head there - 'male or female' - the system treats both badly. So we have to look elsewhere to see why men are killing themselves at a greater rate than women.

Mr. Tea
01-02-2018, 11:08 AM
Tea, genuinely good to see you back here!


Cheers man, good to be back.



(but please read what I actually said)

(but why break the habit of a lifetime? ;))

entertainment
01-02-2018, 02:29 PM
Capitalism has become synonym with unbridled capitalism. Capitalism and strong, effective social programs are by no means mutually exclusive.

luka
01-02-2018, 03:08 PM
Lol this thread has been well and truly derailed.

yeah ultimately the thread was just for me to boast about how much weight ive lost and act all self-righteous but never mind


Snickers4ever
5h ago
76 77

I have tried to write this several times but it keeps coming out wrong so forgive me if it sounds bad.

But I am sick of the 'Black' or 'female' issues being rammed down my throat. It feels like an attempt to make me and other white men feel guilty about ...something...Racism, sexism, wage disparity....when the vast majority of us are nothing of the sort. I refuse to be made to feel like some sort of creep or racist.

I see only a Marvel film here. However I think in its attempt to 'be black' it has gone too far the other way and seems exclusively black down to the romanticized view of an African country and with faux 'African' accents (which is just insulting to everyone).
I also had an issue with (in comprehensively) Oscar nominated film Get Out where the whole White people exploiting Black people seemed shoe-horned in with no actual relevance to the over-all story - unless it was being racist against white people.

I'm sorry but all of these labels and separation do nothing to further the cause of racial harmony. All it does is further divide people and this article and many other like it don't help one jot.

As I said, all I see is a Marvel film here and I'd like to hope that it wouldn't further the seemingly increasing divide between people. But I think it has and will.

luka
01-02-2018, 03:18 PM
ProbablyOnTopic MattB242
5h ago
20 21

It's funny that you're criticising my reading skills, as you apparently didn't read my post that you replied to originally.

Again, then: I have never heard a non-white person use the term in the flesh. It seems to be the preserve of painfully right-on journalists and social media commenters. You're not asking me to respect non-white people's wishes, you're asking me to respect your wishes.

And I won't, because it's homogenising. It suggests that all non-white people fit into a natural category other than 'human beings'. Just like 'ethnic' and 'coloured'. I won't use a term that implies there's something special about being white.
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Mark Tyler MattB242
5h ago
10 11

I would refer you to Jordan Petersons take on enforced language. I'm happy to oblige anyone as long as enforced language isn't a necessity.
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Mark Tyler MattB242
5h ago
14 15

My good friends Jag and Devi are Punjabi. They are old school and worked like hell to create the best possible outcomes for their kids They have no doubt received some abuse along the way. My friend Jed is from a Muslim background. My friends Chanel and Basil are black. Not one of them is asking me to change the way that I address them. "Use my pronouns" seems as ridiculous to them as it does to me.

luka
01-02-2018, 03:20 PM
-
Mark Tyler MattB242
3h ago
4 5

I have no privelige.I have no privelige.I have no privelige.I have no privelige.I have no privelige.I have no privelige.I have no privelige.I have no privelige.I have no privelige.I have no privelige.I have no privelige.I have no privelige.I have no privelige.I have no privelige.I have no privelige.

Is that enough? I have no privelige. I'm a poor sod, a single parent and I'm trying to get from month to month. I have no privelige. What somebody elses ancestors did has nothing to do with me.

My ancestors? My mum was too young to be evacuated from the Blitz. I can tell you that Londeners were pretty fu**ed up by that. My dad was evacuated, but had to come home to his neglectful mother. My grandfather was blown off a factory roof whilst on fire watch, and died in hospital of his injuries. On the other side my grandfather was blinded in an accident and died young because of neglect. My grandmother lost all of her family in Polish death camps.

What privelige?

Mr. Tea
01-02-2018, 04:30 PM
Where are you going with this, exactly?

luka
01-02-2018, 04:35 PM
what do you think?

Mr. Tea
01-02-2018, 04:39 PM
Well I've got an idea but I don't think it's helping the thread move forward.

cwmbran-city
01-02-2018, 06:20 PM
life is too short to have to sift thru past posts just to clarify a specific point, but here it is, i'm not repeating the process because a couple of you appear to take more delight in poking fun @ de-legitimizing someone else's point of view by claiming they're the culprit at derailing discussion & confusing the issue, when they should be looking closer to home...

soooo, heads up heathens, here it is, zero memes included:


Suicide by men under 50 is now 1 of the leading causes of death for this demographic. If it was any other form of disease or disorder, it would be treated like an international crisis. But because of the all pervasive Guardian-obsessed "patriarchy" & the fact most men are disposable workhorses in the labour market, nothing is done.

the context for patriarchy was posited as the reason why certain national press agencies continue to ignore a vast national public health crisis of ungodly proportions, if all this attention is on the latest Weinstein, Spacey, *insert celebrity sex predator here scandal, ie: that men are the root of all society's ills, when right under their noses thousands of preventable male deaths are occurring week week out, then the subject is never going to attain the degree of analysis it deserves to reverse problem.

no wonder then that the general public, society, our health care system & our political representatives continue to ignore the problem, when the gulf between left wing & right wing ideological polarities has never appeared so high.

all of us need to find some form of consensus on the matter in hand, to meet each other on some form of public platform to try to understand the problem in its fullest context, because only then can anything change.

do we see this discussion anywhere in the media, via NHS professionals or via our political representatives?

do we fk, because the Tory hordes want to partially dismantle & privatize the NHS on ideological grounds as best it can and the opposite side is fixated on patriarchy as the root of all evil.



really, the undoubted male suicide crisis has nothing to do with ignoring this crisis to focus instead on patriarchal attitudes. It's almost the opposite - the continued fixation from men on maintaining fixed gender roles (which obviously disadvantages women massively; the less appreciated aspect being that men also suffer hugely from a system they in essence created) has to bear much of the responsibility, so that talking about one's feelings = a 'feminine' trait, rather than a human one, and stoicism in the face of any amount of emotional pain continues to be seen as 'male'. Men create this prison for themselves. Until men 'allow' other men to seek help for mental health issues by creating a more open culture of maleness (and not shaming them for it), then men will continue to kill themselves at alarming rates.
.


you managed to take one observation & run with it to another level by taking it completely out of context, thats why my own reply was so derisive.

it reeks of the worst aspects of the current fixation on patriarchy as the definitive cause of societal ills (see the Guardian allusion above), is misinformed, poorly thought through and completely irrelevant & inappropriate when it comes to the modern NHS crisis and your generalization that men are so terrified of shaming themselves that suicide is a better resolution.

this is fundamentally wrong, because it ignores the complexity of causes & effects....which is why this reply conveyed my exacerbation at such a degraded understanding of the matter in hand =


patriarchal attitudes have been far more entrenched in the past, but there arent anywhere near the same the rates of correlation with suicide, not by a huge margin.

equally mental health services have never been so expansive (yet still sketchy as fuck).

yet essentially you're saying rates of male suicide are down to males suppressing emotions, that this is a patriarchal prison, stoically self-made & self-perpetuating = really?



baboon2004
as I've pointed out to you before - and been rebuffed for the purposes of continuing an argument.


rebuffed not for the sake of continuing an argument, more the critical lack of awareness in your own approach in explaining patriarchal roles as one of the main causes of male suicide.... its not rocket science but it is indicative of someone who doesnt have a survivors view of the problem.

by pinpointing why, how & where your position lacked insight, empathy & a fuller understanding of the problem, i'm accused of derailing the thread.

so be it.

its the default option of immature minds to accuse someone of derailing a subject because you dont agree with their criticism of the weaknesses in your own understanding of the subject....a "debate" can not develop if individuals fail to see or engage with the flaws in their own ideological scaffolding.

this is why you've become increasingly defensive & lobbed the derailing euphemism as soon as you encountered a counter-point to your own false logic & to de-legitimize anything i expressed (except very broad consensus that there is a problem, thank the gods), its something i deal with week in/week out with MH services, consultants, SHO's & CPN's, which is why i'm not surprised to see a MH worker spout the "P-word" (sorry i just couldnt type that word out one more time)

whether trying to cut thru the complexities of defining capitalism, its role in creating so much pressure on MH services which cant cope with the demands being placed upon them, through to institutional obfuscation where clinicians serve to preserve their own careers & self-interest over the greater public interest.....thats not just a problem, its a national disgrace because the outcome for patients can be so severe it beggars belief just how endemic the fault-lines are & it isnt going to go away anytime soon.

part of the problem identified from my own advocacy work, is that GP's tend to be more empathetic/sympathetic with women expressing concerns over their mental health than they are with men, if the women concerned are mothers even more so because their anxieties will then generally be higher still & a GP will usually interpret such behaviour as a probable cause & a direct influence on their ability to manage their parenting roles. Younger women, particularly students, who tend to be more agreeable than men, face a greater problem here, but university services are slowly beginning to recognize the problem & every higher education facility now has its own internal counseling service, Cardiff has even started doing EMDR sessions for social anxiety for all sexes & genders, which is making a significant difference to the mental health of students. Once they leave university the problems are then greatly amplified due to state of the current MH sector.

to focus back on the main theme here, men are clearly currently facing some kind of sex-identity crisis, for minor but illuminating proof just look at the number of weight training clones & the range of tattoos & beards currently doing the rounds compared to 20-30yrs ago.....this isnt just fashion, its one area where masculinity can be expressed albeit in a very limited & confined field....equally the weight training/body image aesthetic rarely has little to do with fitness, health or self-defense awareness/capability & is all about image projection in a world where individual agency has never faced more influence from marketing imagery about how a man should look (rather than behave) & institutional bs from a post-post-industrial world. Very very few male gym clones will take up Jujitsu or Krav Maga as a way to purge the mind & improve their health, so the expression of beards, tattoos & muscle bulk are for public display. The question again loops back to why?

No doubt women face an even more aggressive & ageist marketing onslaught about how to look, which can spiral into eating disorders, fat shaming anxiety driven horror, compounded by the corrosive influence of social media (instagram users beware), facebook's habit of falsely framing & validating the multitude of "look at what a happy families &/or individuals we all are, heres 150photos of our last holiday...." etc

If i've repeated myself on the odd occasion in previous posts, it was because repeated misunderstandings were being re-presented, from the P-word to the comment about a male suicide gene....the latter of which i'm not averse to seeing the humour in, but the former :face-palm:

Nonetheless, if we were sat around a pub table, chewing the fat face to face (pork scratchins and a diet coke please!), the communication here would have been clearer & more streamlined, but when folks lob "derailing" terms in to de-legitimize someone else's point of view, that particularly strategy of provocation & making them appear irrelevant aswell as disregarding what their evidence-based experiences are, will get the short shrift deserved.

sorry i couldnt be more brief, a couple of lines for answers usually suffice on forums, but some of the posts here barely justify a response, maybe thats the best policy from now on.

*edit - caught this on the way home in the car last night, highly recommended & very well put together program on an " investigation of how and why individuals and organisations learn from their mistakes or fail to do so. In this episode he explores how government could get better at experimenting and adapting from when things go wrong." (no dload sory)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08xxfz7

Benny B
01-02-2018, 09:31 PM
" if all this attention is on the latest Weinstein, Spacey, *insert celebrity sex predator here scandal, ie: that men are the root of all society's ills, when right under their noses thousands of preventable male deaths are occurring week week out, then the subject is never going to attain the degree of analysis it deserves to reverse problem."

Quite simply one of the worst opinions ive ever read on dissensus, ever. Blaming focus on a global movement of women speaking out about endemic sexual abuse for men committing suicide.
:eek:

sadmanbarty
01-02-2018, 10:34 PM
yeah ultimately the thread was just for me to boast about how much weight ive lost and act all self-righteous but never mind

i can confirm that you do indeed have the physique of a bloke that girls from art school fancy.

cwabrn, you've been through enough. go post betty davis eyes on choon of the day. skim through the meme thread. add some insights on the counting crows one. reassure corpsey about his poetry comprehension. have you got an opinion about dominic datwun you could tag on the deep tech thread?

baboon2004
02-02-2018, 11:53 AM
rebuffed not for the sake of continuing an argument, more the critical lack of awareness in your own approach in explaining patriarchal roles as one of the main causes of male suicide.... its not rocket science but it is indicative of someone who doesnt have a survivors view of the problem.

by pinpointing why, how & where your position lacked insight, empathy & a fuller understanding of the problem, i'm accused of derailing the thread.

so be it.

its the default option of immature minds to accuse someone of derailing a subject because you dont agree with their criticism of the weaknesses in your own understanding of the subject....a "debate" can not develop if individuals fail to see or engage with the flaws in their own ideological scaffolding.


'Derailing the thread' didn't relate to you at all, for what it's worth. I was talking about the deviation from Luka's original post.

You're making yourself look petty by resorting to completely unsubstantiated ad hominem criticisms of someone you don't know. I don't know whether to be annoyed or bemused. Particularly accusing someone whose father died in a mental health ward last year after being sectioned, of 'lacking empathy and a fuller understanding of the problem' - no it wasn't suicide, but believe me the issues of constant attacks on the self and wanting to die were/are very similar. To use your own phrasing, it's not rocket science to understand that other people have lived experience too.

I just read that comment that Benny picked out - pretty much confirms my original criticism. "You managed to take one observation & run with it to another level by taking it completely out of context" - seems not, and that you actually are invested in a narrative about how oppressed men are. Maturity consists - among other things - in being able to recognise other forms of oppression that do not relate directly to you, and respecting that tackling these is not a danger to your own concerns. Elsewhere in your posts though you do allude to the issues that women face (seemingly tacitly agreeing with all I've said about the socialisation of gender being an important factor in mental health), so I think it's just joining the dots.

droid
02-02-2018, 12:25 PM
Very sorry to hear about your dad Baboon. Condolences.

baboon2004
02-02-2018, 12:53 PM
thanks mate, appreciate it. i don't really want to make this about validity of personal experience, but sometimes i guess it's best to share where you're coming from

Mr. Tea
02-02-2018, 01:06 PM
Jesus, yeah, that's awful. Please accept condolences, for whatever they're worth.

cwmbran-city
02-02-2018, 07:30 PM
" if all this attention is on the latest Weinstein, Spacey, *insert celebrity sex predator here scandal, ie: that men are the root of all society's ills, when right under their noses thousands of preventable male deaths are occurring week week out, then the subject is never going to attain the degree of analysis it deserves to reverse problem."

Quite simply one of the worst opinions ive ever read on dissensus, ever. Blaming focus on a global movement of women speaking out about endemic sexual abuse for men committing suicide.
:eek:

cool, yet again some supreme worshipful master of the internet fails to grasp their own confirmation bias, so i take some pride from that Dr Benny of the Anti-Patriarchy Pioneers

overall your inability to grasp the point is on you yoof, the complaint was focused on reporters who wont go anywhere near the issue of male suicide when people are dying

thats not invalidating sexual predators or the damage they do, but my humble opinion is that the Guardian & many of its readers would rather hashtag an issue than actually resolve it....typical of today's McDonalds-esque focus & Socialist-Worker-Lite world-views

Dr Benny, King of Dissensus, bequeath lesser intellects the right to articulate their poorly understood life experiences......


i can confirm that you do indeed have the physique of a bloke that girls from art school fancy.

cwabrn, you've been through enough. go post betty davis eyes on choon of the day. skim through the meme thread. add some insights on the counting crows one. reassure corpsey about his poetry comprehension. have you got an opinion about dominic datwun you could tag on the deep tech thread?


how mature, keyboard warrior, whatever age-landmark you may have reached, your ability to shoot lowest common denominator "jog on, son" speaks volumes

your parents must be very proud

5mins in a locked room together wouldnt leave you with much else to say, do or think, if that appeals to you?

come & have a coffee & a chat some time, i'll pay for your transport, cos i'm polite like that

agreeable?

maybe you could recommend some tunes? actually probably better that you dont:


What they all have in common - and it's almost a generic global-ghetto-beatz gloss that covers the surface of all music now - is the crinkled sheen of grievously over-done AutoTune. Standardized bizniz seen. AutoTune and similar devices / apps (e.g Melodyne) have established global dominion, audio hegemony. They're inescapable, and seemingly even more so in the non-West such as Middle East and North Africa.

Found it a bit wearing on the dancehall to be honest (even though there's quite extreme and inventive things being done here and there by the singers who doubtless record in the studio with AutoTune in their headphones affecting their vocals in real-time, so they work out how to push the effect). Similarly with the Chicago bop (liked the MBE stuff marginally more than Sicko Mob for some reason).

Partly the finding-it-wearing has to do with how rhythmically I can't hear anything really new going on in the dancehall - just that bashment big-beat style, often with a kind of digital smear to the drums. Perhaps that's the overall maxed-out sound quality. The end result is that everything in the tracks feels like it's made out of the same denatured stuff, it's like there's this flat plane of hypergloss. The tracks are so toppy that they feel imbalanced (one wonders how they sound in the dance).


were you listening to this crap on laptop speakers or summat....inquiring minds would love to know



'Derailing the thread' didn't relate to you at all, for what it's worth. I was talking about the deviation from Luka's original post.

You're making yourself look petty by resorting to completely unsubstantiated ad hominem criticisms of someone you don't know. I don't know whether to be annoyed or bemused. Particularly accusing someone whose father died in a mental health ward last year after being sectioned, of 'lacking empathy and a fuller understanding of the problem' - no it wasn't suicide, but believe me the issues of constant attacks on the self and wanting to die were/are very similar. To use your own phrasing, it's not rocket science to understand that other people have lived experience too.

I just read that comment that Benny picked out - pretty much confirms my original criticism. "You managed to take one observation & run with it to another level by taking it completely out of context" - seems not, and that you actually are invested in a narrative about how oppressed men are. Maturity consists - among other things - in being able to recognise other forms of oppression that do not relate directly to you, and respecting that tackling these is not a danger to your own concerns. Elsewhere in your posts though you do allude to the issues that women face (seemingly tacitly agreeing with all I've said about the socialisation of gender being an important factor in mental health), so I think it's just joining the dots.


condolences for losing your Father in such horrendous circumstances, but other people have had far more monstrous lives, lost friends & relatives through medical negligence, i'll spare you and the fucko gimps who troll here the details because stooping to that is unnecessary due to the levels of bs from previous members

there is tacit agreement with differences in how men & women are treated by the care system, not on broader socialization reasons for the discrepancy in suicide rates....

am i "invested" in male suicide rates? very much yes, personally & professionally, but does that mean that i see the problem as oppression of males or that i ignore the oppression of others?

i wont credit that with a fuller explanation, there's enough for you to misinterpret from previous posts, as per

thought raising the issue of male suicide in Britain would draw in what i thought were open minds on this forum, considering its a sausage-fest

clearly not, things are far too incestuous here for their own good

seriously doe, if Sadcuntbarfy wants to meet up for a chinwag any time, it would be an honour to look you in the eye & hear you repeat those lines in person

cue hive mind lols & whateverthefuck else passes for discussion on this forum

my mistake, thought there was some music to share & learn about, but only the more quiet souls here seem to have any musical chops.......nuff said

bunch of fkn kids

luka
02-02-2018, 08:39 PM
the temper tantrums were one reason i stopped smoking skunk. all smokers get them.

droid
02-02-2018, 09:05 PM
Lock thread.

luka
02-02-2018, 09:09 PM
the thread's fine it's just one person misbehaving.

luka
02-02-2018, 09:10 PM
and he'll either leave the forum or wind his neck in. it's not like we've never seen it before lol

padraig (u.s.)
03-02-2018, 07:52 AM
seriously doe, if Sadcuntbarfy wants to meet up for a chinwag any time, it would be an honour to look you in the eye & hear you repeat those lines in person

dude aren't you like a nearing middle age mental health professional? did you really feeling good about typing and posting that? I can't imagine you did

obv the issue is near/dear to your heart but come on now

from your prior posts you seem like a smart/interesting cat I'm sure people would be happy to see stick around but if not yunno whatever

stirring up the ol dissensus hive mind is very much encouraged btw just don't be a jerk about it

padraig (u.s.)
03-02-2018, 07:54 AM
while I'm here, hello + welcome back mr. tea!

and deepest condolences to baboon about your dad, sorry for your loss

luka
03-02-2018, 08:45 AM
Sadcuntbarfy gets a free trip to Wales though which is pretty sweet. the autotune quote is reynolds. "Standardized bizniz seen" gives it away.
http://energyflashbysimonreynolds.blogspot.co.uk/2017/07/paradigm-shifty.html

sadmanbarty
03-02-2018, 09:16 AM
Ayatollah reynolds shall not be used to besmirch my good name

“sadmanbarty was eye opening-what an interesting cat, dedicated seeker of music”

455

martin
07-02-2018, 02:20 PM
You're all wrong. It grates when you're straight. Read The Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam.

I gave up fags in June 2016. For what? To buy extra timein the dementia ward, rocking back and forth in a wet patch, screaming for the nurse like a baby? Cleaner lungs, brain torn to shreds.

Here's a photo of Heaven.

464

CORP$EY
07-02-2018, 02:33 PM
lolz as always martin but don't forget that smoking is linked with an increase chance of dementi (https://www.alzheimers.org.uk/info/20010/risk_factors_and_prevention/1198/smoking_and_dementia_risk)a so by quitting you might have ensured that you'll be rocking back and forth in an old person's home, surrounded by the demented, completely clear of mind, which might even be worse :)

anyway, I think by the time we're old VR will have come along leaps and bounds and it'll be the best time of our whole lives :poop:

luka
07-02-2018, 08:00 PM
You're all wrong. It grates when you're straight. Read The Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam.

I gave up fags in June 2016. For what? To buy extra timein the dementia ward, rocking back and forth in a wet patch, screaming for the nurse like a baby? Cleaner lungs, brain torn to shreds.

Here's a photo of Heaven.

464

lovely photo but who wants to go back to that before drugs had been invented and you just drank 6 pints of warm piss weak beer smoked 60 roll ups shit yourself and went home to bed at 11.30pm

Mr. Tea
07-02-2018, 08:06 PM
lovely photo but who wants to go back to that before drugs had been invented and you just drank 6 pints of warm piss weak beer smoked 60 roll ups shit yourself and went home to bed at 11.30pm

^there speaks a man who can no longer drink six pints without shitting himself

luka
07-02-2018, 08:10 PM
it's no suprise you nurture fantasies of returning to the 1950s tea!

luka
07-02-2018, 08:11 PM
eating food like toad in the hole and beef wellington at 5pm. smoking woodbines. listening to the wireless.

Mr. Tea
07-02-2018, 09:56 PM
You say that like those are bad things!

luka
07-02-2018, 10:51 PM
beating your wife and eating pork scratchings. washing the dishes in the bathwater cos of austerity.

luka
07-02-2018, 10:52 PM
but at least you could could smoke snouts in pubs

HMGovt
08-02-2018, 08:16 AM
Everything was better 60 years ago. Everything. Who wouldn't swap fun-free, debased, impoverished, small-thinking, smokeless, hand-to-mouth, neo-Communist 2018 for free-wheeling, jet-age, atmospheric nuclear testing, acid-experimenting, Dolce Vita 1958 in a minute, really?

luka
08-02-2018, 08:31 AM
i sometimes call craner 1950s man for his single minded dedication to booze and fags.
465

Mr. Tea
08-02-2018, 08:48 AM
I think the one thing that's unarguable is that everyone was much better dressed back then. Cars looked awesome too.

martin
08-02-2018, 12:31 PM
Don't want to piss on this detour into '50s aesthetics, but it was the first nice image of 'booze and fags' I could find on Google Search.

Corpsey is probably right. A whole generation of zonked-out OAPs with VR headsets, grinning inanely while virtual-hang gliding, is what we've got coming to us. Pass the smack.

Mr. Tea
08-02-2018, 01:16 PM
i sometimes call craner 1950s man for his single minded dedication to booze and fags.
465

Well that's fair enough, I mean white people wouldn't even take drugs were it not for the nefarious Chinaman using opium to enslave innocent white girls in the dens of Limehouse and Liverpool or the negro jazz player with his seductive marijuana cigarettes.

john eden
08-02-2018, 01:23 PM
There's nothing to stop anyone wearing a suit and tie in a pub in 2018, with or without facial hair?

I think both of these things are best avoided personally.

luka
08-02-2018, 01:25 PM
pubs are best avoided theyre full of cunts

john eden
08-02-2018, 04:02 PM
pubs are best avoided theyre full of cunts

This is not the correct position on pubs.

luka
08-02-2018, 04:13 PM
im a puritan now i dont approve of them. gross behaviour. worst tendencies of angloid society.

Mr. Tea
08-02-2018, 04:30 PM
im a puritan now i dont approve of them.

Fits with the sudden Milton obsession. You should have kids and call them things like Take-Not-The-Lord's-Name-In-Vain Davis.

john eden
08-02-2018, 05:26 PM
Pubs are better than Pizza Express Jazz Club.

luka
08-02-2018, 05:44 PM
heresy.

Mr. Tea
08-02-2018, 06:13 PM
Pubs are better than Pizza Express Jazz Club.

But less fun than singles night at Zizzi's.

Leo
08-02-2018, 10:27 PM
Girl Scout sells 300 boxes of cookies outside a California marijuana dispensary

https://mashable.com/2018/02/05/girl-scout-sells-cookies-outside-marijuana-weed-pot-store/#T5.a.1glnOqA

CORP$EY
09-02-2018, 09:07 AM
I wonder if there'll be a puritan/straight-edge movement in rap soon, as a reaction to the Xanax feeding frenzy that's going on ATM

Bow-ties and mineral water in the club

luka
09-02-2018, 09:08 AM
i hope so.

luka
09-02-2018, 09:09 AM
ive done nearly 6 months off the booze and mobile phones now. it's getting to thepoint where i might even start a blog again just for something to do.i want that jordan peterson money.

CORP$EY
09-02-2018, 09:11 AM
Aha! Peterson has blipped onto your radar eh?

He's on everyone's radar now of course

I read an article about him that got me really riled up against him and then I listened to his latest appearance on Bro Rogan's podcast and I thought oh he actually sounds fairly reasonable aside from pronouncing the word 'out' 'oot'

CORP$EY
09-02-2018, 09:11 AM
I missed the most important thing there

PLEASE START A BLOG AGAIN

Easier to read at work than Paradise Lost

luka
09-02-2018, 09:16 AM
Peterson was one of those things that once i'd first heard of him i coudnt stop hearing about him. hes like a canary in a coalmine. an early warning system. if someone one facebook you know starts sharing peterson stuff just block them now and save yourself some hassle. in a couple of weeks they'll be sharing 'feminism is cancer' memes.

Mr. Tea
09-02-2018, 09:18 AM
I read an article about him that got me really riled up against him and then I listened to his latest appearance on Bro Rogan's podcast and I thought oh he actually sounds fairly reasonable aside from pronouncing the word 'out' 'oot'

So you're saying he's 100% correct about everything and anyone who disagrees should be put in an internment camp?

luka
09-02-2018, 09:19 AM
tea, needless to say, has been posting peterson videos on facebook lol

luka
09-02-2018, 09:19 AM
but i actually had in mind another mutual facebook friend of ours who followed that trajectory, to a tea ahm
and even tea will have to admit this is true.

Mr. Tea
09-02-2018, 09:23 AM
but i actually had in mind another mutual facebook friend of ours who followed that trajectory, to a tea ahm
and even tea will have to admit this is true.

Yes but (with respect to the guy) he is kind of nuts, and I'm not.

luka
09-02-2018, 09:33 AM
no being nuts is not something i could ever accuse you of thats true.

CORP$EY
09-02-2018, 10:11 AM
I know private eye is probably written by an office full of tittering public schoolboys but I quite enjoyed their snarky review of peterson's book

https://i.redd.it/znssvmhm6ze01.png

Mr. Tea
09-02-2018, 10:24 AM
Luka the neo-puritan should dress like this:

466

and style himself LUKA HOPKINS, NERDFINDER GENERAL.

luka
09-02-2018, 10:30 AM
disrupting theatre performances in islington. upsetting card tables at casinos in knightsbridge.

Mr. Tea
09-02-2018, 10:46 AM
Actually Peterson sounds pretty puritanical. A good solid sober upright hard-working Anglo-Saxon like yourself! I dunno why you have such a beef with him TBH.

droid
09-02-2018, 10:47 AM
Speaking of Peterson:

https://twitter.com/classiclib3ral/status/961461529555210240

droid
09-02-2018, 10:47 AM
The intellectual saviour of the right in full flow.

Mr. Tea
09-02-2018, 10:48 AM
Actually Peterson sounds pretty puritanical. A good solid sober upright hard-working Anglo-Saxon like yourself! I dunno why you have such a beef with him TBH.

Narcissism of small differences?

luka
09-02-2018, 11:03 AM
Speaking of Peterson:

https://twitter.com/classiclib3ral/status/961461529555210240

lmao this is the first time ive actually seen this guy talk :crylarf::crylarf::crylarf: it's way funnier than i could ever have imagined. thats a comedy routine i dont care who tries to claim hes being sincere.

luka
09-02-2018, 11:04 AM
Actually Peterson sounds pretty puritanical. A good solid sober upright hard-working Anglo-Saxon like yourself! I dunno why you have such a beef with him TBH.

it's possible to agree on all sorts of things with your ideological enemies. in fact its inevitable.

luka
09-02-2018, 11:05 AM
that neo-nazi just said he loves his mum dont you love your mum? oh you must be a nazi then you love your mum too

Benny B
09-02-2018, 11:42 AM
lmao this is the first time ive actually seen this guy talk :crylarf::crylarf::crylarf: it's way funnier than i could ever have imagined. thats a comedy routine i dont care who tries to claim hes being sincere.

Lol you've seen nothing yet, check this:

https://youtu.be/G1YtJZOTDbQ

Mr. Tea
09-02-2018, 11:43 AM
that neo-nazi just said he loves his mum dont you love your mum? oh you must be a nazi then you love your mum too

By the same token, while Peterson is clearly very conservative he seems to have had the alt-right label thrust on him because some frog-worshipping loonies on 4chan have decided he's the best thing ever.

droid
09-02-2018, 11:51 AM
Ive been ignoring him, because who needs to listen to another of these cretins? Seems I was missing out on some quality entertainment.

luka
09-02-2018, 11:53 AM
Ive been ignoring him, because who needs to listen to another of these cretins? Seems I was missing out on some quality entertainment.

me too. thatll teach me for being a snob.

Corpsey
09-02-2018, 11:54 AM
I was shocked listening to him speak that Canadians use the word "bloody"

Hands off our swearwords you bloody Mounties

Benny B
09-02-2018, 11:55 AM
Maybe tea can give us some recommendations. Mr tea, whats your fave JP video?

luka
09-02-2018, 11:58 AM
where would dissensus be without some good old tea baiting!

Mr. Tea
09-02-2018, 12:00 PM
Maybe tea can give us some recommendations. Mr tea, whats your fave JP video?

I've only seen the interview where he demolishes Cathy Newman. God's honest truth.

And in all honesty a lot of what he says is obviously crazy, but in that particular interview he's on point.

luka
09-02-2018, 12:01 PM
teas entire facebook wall atm is just jordan peterson videos and comments from tea underneath going
"you have to admit, he does have a point"

CORP$EY
09-02-2018, 12:03 PM
He comes across quite well on Brogan but that might be cos he's talking to Brogan and almost anyone comes off as super intelligent compared to Brogan

droid
09-02-2018, 12:06 PM
He'll definitely have to be added to this wall of fame.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_ctl9oXcAACliF.jpg

luka
09-02-2018, 12:22 PM
theres something so foppish about Dawkins, as if he should be wearing a Tudor ruff. It's those rouged cheeks and Lady Diana eyes

Mr. Tea
09-02-2018, 12:25 PM
teas entire facebook wall atm is just jordan peterson videos and comments from tea underneath going
"you have to admit, he does have a point"

467

Mr. Tea
09-02-2018, 12:26 PM
theres something so foppish about Dawkins, as if he should be wearing a Tudor ruff. It's those rouged cheeks and Lady Diana eyes

brb, writing luka/Dawkins erotic fanfic.

CORP$EY
09-02-2018, 12:36 PM
i remember what he was saying now, at least one of the things - it was that marxism is a murderous ideology and what starts with gender pronouns ends with the gulag

Mr. Tea
09-02-2018, 12:40 PM
Yeah, that's what I had in mind when I said some of it was crazy. As if the NKVD started out enforcing campus safe spaces and next thing you know, it's ten years in a Siberian salt mine for not saluting a portrait of Stalin with sufficient enthusiasm.

CORP$EY
09-02-2018, 12:46 PM
one of his fans on the gruniad comments section said that he'd read the gulag achipellathingy on jordan pettysatanist's recommendation and it had changed his life - 'read that book if you're a socialist and when you're finished you'll be a capitalist'

i thought - well, yes, communism was disastrous but couldn't you find (theoretically) a bajillion books about the horrors of life under capitalism?'

i suppose the counter argument = at least under capitalism you can publish books about how shit capitalism is

droid
09-02-2018, 12:49 PM
Huh, go figure, Ive read nearly all of Solzhenitsyn and it just made me think that totalitarianism was bad.

Benny B
09-02-2018, 12:53 PM
I've only seen the interview where he demolishes Cathy Newman. God's honest truth.

And in all honesty a lot of what he says is obviously crazy, but in that particular interview he's on point.

I've already seen this one and he's just as awful as he is every other time i've seen him. In fact, that particular vid appears to be one of his biggest hits with his MRA fanboys.

Mr. Tea
09-02-2018, 01:15 PM
I've already seen this one and he's just as awful as he is every other time i've seen him. In fact, that particular vid appears to be one of his biggest hits with his MRA fanboys.

Whether you even agree with anything he says in that interview is pretty irrelevant. Newman spends half an hour mangling every single thing he says into something totally different. It's pathetic. It's not that he comes out of it looking like a genius, it's that she makes herself look like a complete arse.

If C4 had wanted to debunk his ideas, they should at least have put him up against someone able and willing to engage with him instead of going "So what you're saying is" for 30 minutes.

Also, lol at "every other time I've seen him". I've watched this one interview - if anyone here is obsessed with him it would appear to be you.

HMGovt
09-02-2018, 02:45 PM
Peter Hitchens remains unconvinced by Jordan Peterson

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/02/jordan-peterson-doesnt-go-nearly-far-enough/

CORP$EY
09-02-2018, 03:23 PM
I can't imagine why it's never occurred to me how being a conservative and being a christian aligns. Peterson's a bible basher, and so apparently is Hitchens.

Interesting that he, like his brother, is an ex-commie.

Reminds me of Orwell's essay on nationalism http://orwell.ru/library/essays/nationalism/english/e_nat

The nationalist 'type', able to transfer a zealous belief in one ideology entirely to an opposing ideology.


Instability. The intensity with which they are held does not prevent nationalist loyalties from being transferable. To begin with, as I have pointed out already, they can be and often are fastened up on some foreign country. One quite commonly finds that great national leaders, or the founders of nationalist movements, do not even belong to the country they have glorified. Sometimes they are outright foreigners, or more often they come from peripheral areas where nationality is doubtful. Examples are Stalin, Hitler, Napoleon, de Valera, Disraeli, Poincare, Beaverbrook. The Pan-German movement was in part the creation of an Englishman, Houston Chamberlain. For the past fifty or a hundred years, transferred nationalism has been a common phenomenon among literary intellectuals. With Lafcadio Hearne the transference was to Japan, with Carlyle and many others of his time to Germany, and in our own age it is usually to Russia. But the peculiarly interesting fact is that re-transference is also possible. A country or other unit which has been worshipped for years may suddenly become detestable, and some other object of affection may take its place with almost no interval. In the first version of H. G. Wells's Outline of History, and others of his writings about that time, one finds the United States praised almost as extravagantly as Russia is praised by Communists today: yet within a few years this uncritical admiration had turned into hostility. The bigoted Communist who changes in a space of weeks, or even days, into an equally bigoted Trotskyist is a common spectacle. In continental Europe Fascist movements were largely recruited from among Communists, and the opposite process may well happen within the next few years. What remains constant in the nationalist is his state of mind: the object of his feelings is changeable, and may be imaginary.

Whereas I'm the type that never really believes in anything.

droid
09-02-2018, 03:25 PM
lol, so much wrong with that, but telling that even his fellow travellers think he's vacuous.

Mr. Tea
09-02-2018, 04:35 PM
If the summary of his book in that Private Eye piece is anything to go by, Peterson's importance has probably been greatly overstated by both his detractors and his fanboys. Clearly a lot of young men on 4chan and Reddit, who have bad facial hair and anime T-shirts and say "actually" too much, are going to treat him like a god while a lot of young women on Tumblr, with blue hair and lip rings and a penchant for the word "literally", are going to make him the object of their Two Minutes Hate. And I strongly suspect everyone else will have forgotten about him in a couple of years.

entertainment
09-02-2018, 09:16 PM
Jordan Peterson is not really an intellectual. That much must be certain from how generalizing and misinformed his criticism of post-modernism thought is. It's basically just a cartoonish and slightly off-track diluted version of what Chomsky said about them. I'm pretty sure the main difference is that Chomsky only decided that he didn't understand a word of Derrida (hence the obsurification claims) after he actually read him, whereas Peterson most likely hasn't opened up a book and at least not without heavy preconceptions.

I think Peterson's main fault in this tyrade against his cultural marxist boogeymen is that he got too riled up by the tension and strayed off course from what he's knowledgable about (and actually pretty insightful about too), which is the psychological motivations behind the individual's and collective's adoptation of certain philosophies and schools of thought. In this regard, his arguments about the deceiving appeal to young people by both the radical left and right (and nihilism for that matter) is actually worth taking notes on.

Instead, he started to criticize the actual philosophies that he sees as underpinning, most prominently, the radical left movement of today. In this field, he's not that insightful and far from the first thinker to even raise the critique that he puts forward.

The labelling of him as alt-right is so fucking pathetic and embarrassing, though. The fact that he (a self-proclaimed liberal) has become the intellectual saviour of the right says a great deal more about the lack of nuance in public discourse than it does about him.

droid
09-02-2018, 09:28 PM
But they're ALL self proclaimed liberals, Pinker, Dawkins, Harris etc... 'rationalists' with some specialist background who somehow end up regurgitating and amplifying right wing talking points with metronymic regularity.

Mr. Tea
09-02-2018, 09:57 PM
Left and Right are subjective terms though, and are defined relatively to your own position on the spectrum. Dawkins gets called 'right-wing' mainly because he doesn't subscribe to the leftist orthodoxy that Islam is above criticism, for example. Ditto Harris, from what I know of him (very little, admittedly).

So if you're somewhat to the left of Karl Marx then of course liberals are going to seem right-wing. By exactly the same token, hardline American conservatives use the words "liberal" and "socialist" interchangeably.

Benny B
09-02-2018, 10:45 PM
Jordan Peterson is not really an intellectual. That much must be certain from how generalizing and misinformed his criticism of post-modernism thought is. It's basically just a cartoonish and slightly off-track diluted version of what Chomsky said about them. I'm pretty sure the main difference is that Chomsky only decided that he didn't understand a word of Derrida (hence the obsurification claims) after he actually read him, whereas Peterson most likely hasn't opened up a book and at least not without heavy preconceptions.

I think Peterson's main fault in this tyrade against his cultural marxist boogeymen is that he got too riled up by the tension and strayed off course from what he's knowledgable about (and actually pretty insightful about too), which is the psychological motivations behind the individual's and collective's adoptation of certain philosophies and schools of thought. In this regard, his arguments about the deceiving appeal to young people by both the radical left and right (and nihilism for that matter) is actually worth taking notes on.

Instead, he started to criticize the actual philosophies that he sees as underpinning, most prominently, the radical left movement of today. In this field, he's not that insightful and far from the first thinker to even raise the critique that he puts forward.

The labelling of him as alt-right is so fucking pathetic and embarrassing, though. The fact that he (a self-proclaimed liberal) has become the intellectual saviour of the right says a great deal more about the lack of nuance in public discourse than it does about him.

I agree with a lot of what you're saying here, but that last paragraph; I couldnt really care less about labelling him altright or not, but I hardly think its pathetic and embarrassing to point out some very obvious parallels, namely their anti-feminism.

I dont know that much about him but I certainly wont be taking any notes from the fucker about anything from what I have seen. He's just so awful, worse than milo really.

entertainment
09-02-2018, 10:59 PM
But they're ALL self proclaimed liberals, Pinker, Dawkins, Harris etc... 'rationalists' with some specialist background who somehow end up regurgitating and amplifying right wing talking points with metronymic regularity.

That's still the guilt by association argument. We're talking about a guy who has spent over three decades of his life lecturing against the dangers of the radical right and people are calling him a fascist because he took a picture with some guys that had a flag with a meme frog on it.

Benny B
09-02-2018, 11:05 PM
[QUOTE=Mr. Tea;344141]Whether you even agree with anything he says in that interview is pretty irrelevant. Newman spends half an hour mangling every single thing he says into something totally different. It's pathetic. It's not that he comes out of it looking like a genius, it's that she makes herself look like a complete arse.

If C4 had wanted to debunk his ideas, they should at least have put him up against someone able and willing to engage with him instead of going "So what you're saying is" for 30 minutes.

Also, lol at "every other time I've seen him". I've watched this one interview - if anyone here is obsessed with him it would appear to be

Why is what he says in the video irrelevant? Why put all the focus on her?

the appeal of the video is him supposedly "destroying", "demolishing" and even "raping" a "radical feminist" apparently, from a casual glance at youtube. This guy fuels this type of stuff. Certainly wouldnt post it on my fb wall, unless it was to point out he's a cock..

entertainment
09-02-2018, 11:11 PM
I agree with a lot of what you're saying here, but that last paragraph; I couldnt really care less about labelling him altright or not, but I hardly think its pathetic and embarrassing to point out some very obvious parallels, namely their anti-feminism.

I dont know that much about him but I certainly wont be taking any notes from the fucker about anything from what I have seen. He's just so awful, worse than milo really.

I think the name-calling thing is especially important. He obviously has a strong animosity towards anything related to his notion of what post-modernism is, which includes social constructs, but in the grand scheme of things he is still quite nuanced. A lot of people who aren't remotely right-wing clearly see him as a voice of reason and if figures like him are dismissed by default, it's just going to fuel the polarisation. I disagree with him on most of his stuff atm, too, but I think supporting the credibility of people like him isimportant to establishing stable middle ground in the political spectrum for young people to navigate.