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Corpsey
11-03-2017, 11:17 PM
Doesn't have to be a thousand FYI, I ain't Malcolm Gladwell. Any genre is acceptable. I was thinking of rap music, when a beat gets made and is either so good or used in such a successful tune that it gives birth to a thousand/million bedroom imitators.

I'm pretty sure this is a good example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bMQTU2iI1E

Examples, please, of this type of choon and also of its imitators, successful and unsuccessful.

BTW, this can extend to styles of singing/rapping as well as instrumentation.

PiLhead
11-03-2017, 11:25 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8VY5dxq5CU

thousands is no overstatement

Corpsey
11-03-2017, 11:34 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8VY5dxq5CU

thousands is no overstatement

Yessir!

Care to name/post some imitator tunes that did a good job?

It strikes me even this early that you're gonna get a lot of tunes on this thread where it's not so much the tune as A SOUND that got mimicked. Like to name another obvious one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCUPc9zVfyo

People mimicked this tune but the 303 allowed them to go anywhere they liked from this starting point. Although, as with MENTASM, ACID TRACKS is so fucking good that it might have been the quality of the tune which made the SOUND go over.

Corpsey
11-03-2017, 11:36 PM
On the MENTASM/HOOVER subject: https://techno-dads.com/2011/09/05/dad-noise-the-hoover/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgf2W3dmglo

human resource - dominator (JOEY BELTRAM remix) (1991)

Benny B
12-03-2017, 12:06 AM
Been listening to a lot of bo diddley recently so its a good excuse to post this foundational riddim

http://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLDeFoPmXoQkviC7U_fp1EGT_IPKjflsIq&v=b_qdQhenw0E

Not the very 1st example of that rhythm, but this is the one that got ripped off a million times by elvis, buddy holly, the stones etc and a million 60s garage rock bands. Still the best imo.

That incredible tremelo guitar sound too, i could listen to that one chord all day if bo's playing it.

PiLhead
12-03-2017, 12:42 AM
Dominator is the best Mentasm rip off, so good that it became ripped off itself and possibly even more influential than Mentasm

sadmanbarty
12-03-2017, 11:25 AM
Distortion+Power Chords+Staccato Riff=

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTTsY-oz6Go

Angus Young says the track was an influence on him. AC/DC repeated the formula several times:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEPmA3USJdI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lo2qQmj0_h4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAgnJDJN4VA

The Kinks copied You Really Got Me with their follow-up single:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOGMRnKl5co

Which was very directly ripped off on a couple of notable occasions:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8f1z-nHvt3c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UZ0bPaOdbQ

The Doors lost a a law suit and Lydon's also confessed that the riff was indeed borrowed.

Pete Townshend says Can't Explain was an attempt to copy All Day and All of the Night

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3h--K5928M

Corpsey
12-03-2017, 11:47 AM
That's interesting - it predated '(I Can't Get No) Satisfaction', which was the tune I somehow assumed gave birth to that whole riff-heavy rock sound. In fact, it looks to me like prior to 1965 the Stones were generally doing blues covers. (Someone will shout me down here I guess.)

An interesting idea for another thread would be 'Tunes that you WISH had been influential'.

Corpsey
12-03-2017, 11:49 AM
Always used to decry imitators but actually I'm quite into the idea of a sound or technique or whatever that is just so effective and appealing to people that they want to hear more of it, or create more of it. Shows you've really hit paydirt when that happens eh?

Benny B
12-03-2017, 12:28 PM
i was thinking of you really got me as well, good example. You could argue that the kingsmens version of louie louie is the real root of this, but the kinks is tighter, faster and punchier. Then later you've got troggs wild thing (covered by hendrix of course) taking it in the other direction by slowing it down sleazing it out.

sadmanbarty
12-03-2017, 12:51 PM
Always used to decry imitators but actually I'm quite into the idea of a sound or technique or whatever that is just so effective and appealing to people that they want to hear more of it, or create more of it. Shows you've really hit paydirt when that happens eh?

Arguably the difference between novelty and innovation is whether people copy it or not.

sadmanbarty
12-03-2017, 12:52 PM
An interesting idea for another thread would be 'Tunes that you WISH had been influential'.

That's a very good idea. On the other end of the spectrum you could have 'Music you love that left a terrible legacy'

Leo
12-03-2017, 02:47 PM
'Music you love that left a terrible legacy'

digital mystikz!

baboon2004
12-03-2017, 03:14 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wjw7m-BKmQ8

obvs. pulse x and acid tracks genre-creating equivalent, i suppose. (no idea if there is an even more foundational tune to digital dancehall in reality - but if you inspire king tubby to do something different, then odds on that you've created something pretty new)

Mr. Tea
12-03-2017, 04:01 PM
That's a very good idea. On the other end of the spectrum you could have 'Music you love that left a terrible legacy'

Sad to say that if Nirvana had never existed, the net impact on the total quality of music in the world would probably be positive, on the basis that Silverchair and Nickleback would presumably never have existed, either. :(

Corpsey
12-03-2017, 04:18 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wjw7m-BKmQ8

obvs. pulse x and acid tracks genre-creating equivalent, i suppose. (no idea if there is an even more foundational tune to digital dancehall in reality - but if you inspire king tubby to do something different, then odds on that you've created something pretty new)

http://www.clashmusic.com/features/under-mi-sleng-teng-the-birth-of-digital-dancehall

'Not the first digital track in JA history – Lee ‘Scratch’ Perry began those experiments in the early 70s – the astonishing success of ‘(Under Mi) Sleng Teng’ marked a line in the sand. The usual coteries of studio musicians were out, and digital technology was in.

It’s perhaps overstepping the mark to suggest that without the ‘Sleng Teng’ riddim digital dancehall wouldn’t exist. The movement was already in its primordial stage, and simply needed a spark, an ignition point – Wayne Smith supplied it, and in doing so lit a trail which extends beyond ragga, beyond jungle and into grime and dubstep.'

baboon2004
13-03-2017, 10:39 PM
interesting, thanks

Certainly can't have been popular among many session musicians in Jamaica. I remember reading all about the backlash at the time, but frustratingly I can't find the link now...

droid
13-03-2017, 11:05 PM
Tempo, is, arguably a more important tune.

baboon2004
13-03-2017, 11:22 PM
Actually I was gonna say that I always liked that one more. All-time classic, endlessly playable.

Corpsey
14-03-2017, 10:57 AM
I thought you were making a sort of philosophical point there, droid.

I can't imagine Sleng Ting ever losing its power to spark a dance.

droid
14-03-2017, 11:25 AM
Just in terms of it being the first really big digital tune.

owengriffiths
15-03-2017, 04:56 PM
DJ Zinc changed a lot in Garage after 138 trek and 'Hold On' came out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvVQ7Og-uAo

It has been said that Jesse's 'On & On' was influential because it was simplistic and encouraged people to make House because it wasn't that great a track and if it could be a hit it wouldn't be too hard to do better. 'Hold On' might not have been simple to produce but it was by no means Zincs best garage bassline. Running on the spot breakbeat eventually became obsolete after the likes of Pulse X and loads of other good tunes from Grime & Dubstep producers, but arguably without Zinc that wouldn't have happened. Ditto So Solid's Dilemma too come to think of it. Masterstepz 'melody' was one that was popular but didn't spawn overt immitators.

entertainment
16-03-2017, 04:58 PM
An obvious one. I'm new here by the way, so hello!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2qI6UDD2uQ

Corpsey
16-03-2017, 07:47 PM
That's another one of those first AND best examples.

IdleRich
17-03-2017, 02:15 AM
Another one based on You Really Got Me


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8x2vXZo6Jbk

IdleRich
17-03-2017, 02:27 AM
Think we discussed this before maybe but the following tunes follow a line starting from Immigrant Song (or whatever they nicked that from)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umQqSHYUGcw

IdleRich
17-03-2017, 02:27 AM
Slowed down a bit
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGME6jCwqw0

IdleRich
17-03-2017, 02:28 AM
And then sped back up
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgjNb-6EOYw

Corpsey
17-03-2017, 09:49 AM
That's interesting, never made the link between AssaultOnPrecict13 and Immigrant Song.

Nirvana's 'Scentless Apprentice' is pretty Immigrant Songy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GyxoQIQaogE

IdleRich
17-03-2017, 06:17 PM
That's interesting, never made the link between AssaultOnPrecict13 and Immigrant Song.
I don't think I would have noticed if JC himself hadn't said it... but when it's said it makes perfect sense right? As an aside what's with all this "x says thanks to y for this helpful post" business?

IdleRich
17-03-2017, 06:24 PM
Spekig of I Feel Love - the most blatant rip-off might be this one...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJP8gB9cNcQ Though I have bollywood version which is runs it pretty close.

IdleRich
17-03-2017, 06:36 PM
If we allow bollywood there are quite few - do you reckon these guys had possibly heard Rock-It?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCdawqGRwmo

entertainment
17-03-2017, 09:52 PM
The Immigrant Song groove makes me think of this tune from last year, too, but perhaps a bit of a reach.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZX7nXaEM2c

firefinga
18-04-2017, 06:13 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIGXGkzjAoc&spfreload=10

No comment

firefinga
22-04-2017, 12:33 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nm6DO_7px1I&spfreload=10

Resulted in gazillions of imitations, known as "Eurodance" on the continent. Defined the European charts (to be exact, the German charts) well into the late 90s. The recipe: keep it in the 115-130 BPM range, use some vocal samples from 60s/70s soul records (female singers), a mandatory Rap part (funnily enough often done by some black exGI hobby rapper stationed in Germany. I guess it was mainly done to give the whole thing some "street cred"), add somewhat cheesy synth melodies/strings.

Germany's charts were full of that stuff well into the late 1990s when it was being eclipsed by those drawing board boy- (and girl) bands and Puff Daddy style cheese-rap.

firefinga
28-04-2017, 01:44 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Uu3kCEEc98

Dear lovley miss Cher - thanx a bunch for bringing Autotune in the game :poop:

firefinga
28-04-2017, 02:11 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGh_5lL4z1Q&spfreload=10

Possibly not the first electro track but certainly the one that got the ball going

CORP$EY
16-02-2018, 03:01 PM
MORE PLEASE

padraig (u.s.)
16-02-2018, 03:09 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGWlDm3Jwss
New Orleans bounce

padraig (u.s.)
16-02-2018, 03:12 PM
the 1st Sabbath record, obviously

the 1st 4 Sabbath LPs actually, but I guess you'd accord the 1st one the most historical prominence in this sense

CORP$EY
16-02-2018, 03:12 PM
^ did it invent new orleans bounce or what? ^

CORP$EY
16-02-2018, 03:16 PM
Spotify has thrown on this 'Talk To Me You'll Understand' tune by 'Ross from Friends' (sigh) and in confluence with this thread I'm wondering -

Was 'Archangel' by Burial the tune that launched a thousand pitched down RNB vocals?

Obviously Burial's first album was an influence on ppl like James Blake but 'Archangel' was when he blew up in a big way.

p.s. the Ross from Friends tune isn't that bad actually (and it's got 3 million bloody views on youtube, i assumed it was FACT fodder and nothing more!)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tKKNV5sXUs

padraig (u.s.)
16-02-2018, 03:17 PM
a million indie bands have ripped off the Pixies quiet/loud/quiet thing

padraig (u.s.)
16-02-2018, 03:18 PM
^ did it invent new orleans bounce or what? ^

there's one bar in it that every track samples

like how Baltimore club is based on Think/It Takes Two + Sing Sing

CORP$EY
16-02-2018, 03:22 PM
The band's music incorporates extreme dynamic shifts; Francis explained in 1991, "Those are the two basic components of rock music ... the dreamy side and the rockin' side. It's always been either sweaty or laid back and cool. We do try to be dynamic, but it's dumbo dynamics, because we don't know how to do anything else. We can play loud or quiet—that's it".[108]

padraig (u.s.)
16-02-2018, 03:24 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCSeJHa4O70
idk if you can point to a single track but Pretty Tony from Freestyle is probably most responsible for creating the Miami bass sound? along with Maggotron, Amos Larkins, etc

padraig (u.s.)
16-02-2018, 03:27 PM
T La Rock - It's Yours is a big one too as far as influencing Miami bass (+ probably other bass-centric Southern rap scenes, I'd guess)

padraig (u.s.)
16-02-2018, 03:28 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMHNhJJnve4
and if you're talking about electro this has to go right up there w/Planet Rock, obv

padraig (u.s.)
16-02-2018, 03:34 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHgnWvkeW5c
this is the purest distillation of Discharge's important era (ca. 79-82). you wanna talk about something that has spawned literally thousands upon thousands of imitators.

padraig (u.s.)
16-02-2018, 03:35 PM
there are so many Discharge imitations that some of the imitations have hundreds if not thousands of imitations. Anti Cimex, some of the Japanese bands, etc

padraig (u.s.)
16-02-2018, 03:44 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCz8Kunyjlk
this isn't even my favorite of his Double Exposure remixes (that'd be "My Love Is Free") but it is the one on which he essentially invented the template for modern dance music. definitely building on Tom Moulton, but Gibbons went way further - not just extending the track but recreating in one song what DJs had previously done by juggling records, extending breaks, etc. Obviously Moulton is still important, and Moroder is huge as well, but Gibbons is important because he basically decided what the building blocks would be. this article (http://daily.redbullmusicacademy.com/2016/05/walter-gibbons-the-first-dj-s-dj) explains it way better than I can.

padraig (u.s.)
16-02-2018, 03:48 PM
Cold Sweat by James Brown has to go in this thread too ya? Or Papa's Got a Brand New Bag I guess, depending on how you wanna define the beginning of funk.

padraig (u.s.)
16-02-2018, 03:57 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSOCg9lEMg0
this definitely, for freestyle

Leo
16-02-2018, 04:29 PM
a million indie bands have ripped off the Pixies quiet/loud/quiet thing

could be argued that slint were there too around the same time, although the pixies album came out a little before. unlike pixies, who were more slick pop/rock "indie mainstream", slint also influenced most of the constellation bands (godspeed, etc.).

padraig (u.s.)
16-02-2018, 09:51 PM
slint also influenced most of the constellation bands (godspeed, etc.)

if you're just talking the GY!BE etc of post-rock (as opposed to the jazzier math rockier side) then ya def Slint is the prototype

Pixies tho, better known much wider influence, plus they influenced many influential bands (Nirvana, Pavement, etc)

Good Morning Captain is a definitely a fucking jam tho

#2 all-time greatest American weirdo deconstructed guitar epic after Marquee Moon

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuqEpjcBfaU

padraig (u.s.)
16-02-2018, 09:59 PM
actually drum question for Barty if u read this

what makes the drums interesting here? weird arty time signature I know. syncopation with the bassline? kinda post-postpunk vibe, like a half-speed Gang of Four or Killing Joke

I know what's going on in the more rock-out sections, I'm wondering about the quieter parts. I find them rhythmically compelling but I couldn't explain why.

Corpsey
16-02-2018, 10:09 PM
Is Barty actually a drummer lol

padraig (u.s.)
16-02-2018, 10:17 PM
Is Barty actually a drummer lol

idk man he not only uses words like "septuplets", he uses them in cogent sentences + cites examples

whereas I can play drums but wouldn't call myself a drummer

luka
17-02-2018, 12:58 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHgnWvkeW5c
this is the purest distillation of Discharge's important era (ca. 79-82). you wanna talk about something that has spawned literally thousands upon thousands of imitators.

that aint music mate

luka
17-02-2018, 01:00 AM
Is Barty actually a drummer lol

yeah hes a session drummer. plays with baby bird, did some work with stereophonic, the wombats etc. makes good money.

padraig (u.s.)
17-02-2018, 04:40 PM
that aint music mate
their own motto (+ the rallying cry of 1000s of d-beat bands since) was "Noise Not Music"

so yeah

padraig (u.s.)
17-02-2018, 04:42 PM
but tbh Why is the greatest, most important record the English have ever produced.

better than Sabbath, better than every cool post-punk band, every jungle 12", all the 80s jazz-funk, every grime record.

better than Shakespeare, Chaucer, and the Magna Carta.

padraig (u.s.)
17-02-2018, 04:43 PM
+ Cal is definitely a better/more influential lyricist than Rakim

padraig (u.s.)
17-02-2018, 04:49 PM
seriously tho the beauty of d-beat + diy hardcore is the same as grime. young people making a racket. drilling right down to the raw.

leave aside any latter veneers of respectability, and tell me how the first Discharge 7" isn't the same exact thing as Pulse X

Mr. Tea
17-02-2018, 09:27 PM
but tbh Why is the greatest, most important record the English have ever produced.

better than Sabbath

I'm sorry but this simply WILL NOT STAND.

thirdform
17-02-2018, 09:56 PM
I went through a bit of a grind and d-beat phase a while back (and trust me, there's shitloads of it) so I'm tempted to agree w padraig re sabbath. + discharge fucking rule. see the thing about metal is that a lot of time it's actually (whispers) prog (rock)s bastard child, hence why musicality and technical dexterity is valued so much in the scene, apart from the vocals yer average metalhead is pretty uninterested in heavy dissonance and atonality, some jazzier stuff like gorguts, cynic and meshuggah excluded. The critics won't admit it, of course. Whereas grind doesn't have any of those operatic classical pretensions.

Anyway the three things that eventually turned me off were:
1) excessive reliance on the blast beat — I really like drums and an interesting rhythm section.
2) after you've heard the canon the vocals just end up being really uninteresting.
3) lack of engagement with black and non-western musics.

padraig (u.s.)
18-02-2018, 11:05 PM
grind and d-beat phase

basically agree w/everything you said w/1 big caveat - can't just lump those things together. lotta grind bands utilize some d-beats, and there's a blurry crust/grind edge esp in the early wot do u call it days, but they're not the same. in short, grindcore is death metal by + for the punx, d-beat is one of the two main hardcore blueprints (the other is American: Minor Threat via Bad Brains, + optional Greg Ginn guitar breaks). Discharge are broadly an influence on Napalm Death etc but there's a whole different lineage of hardcore + metal kids around the globe playing faster + faster (Deep Wound, D.R.I., Larm, etc) that culminates in ND/Repulsion etc ca. 1985.

your critiques are all valid. hardcore in virtually every iteration is about execution rather than innovation. such innovation as there is, is usually finding ways to slightly tweak existing formulas. having said that, the punk side of extreme guitar musics in general is full of fucking amazing drummers. + tbf there is a long history of flirtation with noise, esp on the powerviolence side (Man Is the Bastard/The Bastard Is Man, etc), and some grindcore too.

big thing I think is if you tweak those formulas too much in certain directions, it's no longer hardcore (or pv, grind, whatever). not only that, but you lose the power which is its main strength. this isn't a tempo thing, you can play slow - Flipper, latter Black Flag, etc - but it precludes engagement with dancier, non-gtr band things in general. there have been instances - The Big Boys are a good example but their later punk-funk stuff while good isn't really hardcore by any stretch.

padraig (u.s.)
18-02-2018, 11:08 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78SDAYiiy9w
highly enjoyable Big Boys cover of Hollywood Swinging, very disco not disco

thirdform
18-02-2018, 11:32 PM
basically agree w/everything you said w/1 big caveat - can't just lump those things together. lotta grind bands utilize some d-beats, and there's a blurry crust/grind edge esp in the early wot do u call it days, but they're not the same.



True, it was more the crowd i was hanging out with at the time, predominantly metalheads with a couple of punks. i naturally gravitated to anything that wasn't symphonic or overly technical.

Could never quite get them into jungle and hard/jackin/loop techno on my end tho. and I guess I'd have to give it back to them as I hardly listen to white gtrs anymore. (although breakcore appealed to em... hmm...)

minikomi
19-02-2018, 02:46 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_URFoqkwWLY

CORP$EY
19-02-2018, 10:14 AM
This 'd beat' thing has come up again and I've no idea what it is

It's like when I browse OKCUPID and girls list 'electro swing' as their favourite genre

CORP$EY
19-02-2018, 10:16 AM
A rival thread 'SUI GENERIS' ('CHOON GENERIS'?)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uENOY2cSRcA

Apart from Apple's other choons, no other choons ever sounded like this

sadmanbarty
19-02-2018, 01:10 PM
This 'd beat' thing has come up again and I've no idea what it is

It's like when I browse OKCUPID and girls list 'electro swing' as their favourite genre

post a screenshot of your okcupid account. or at least dm it to me.

sadmanbarty
19-02-2018, 01:18 PM
actually drum question for Barty if u read this

what makes the drums interesting here? weird arty time signature I know. syncopation with the bassline? kinda post-postpunk vibe, like a half-speed Gang of Four or Killing Joke

I know what's going on in the more rock-out sections, I'm wondering about the quieter parts. I find them rhythmically compelling but I couldn't explain why.

can't hear anything interesting in the drum. didn't hear any odd time signatures either.

sadmanbarty
19-02-2018, 01:19 PM
yeah hes a session drummer. plays with baby bird, did some work with stereophonic, the wombats etc. makes good money.

no i'm not, although that's a good idea. i'm going to be minted