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View Full Version : I Hate The Film Canon: A Thread



CrowleyHead
24-05-2017, 03:12 PM
Get it out folks. Get those bad opinions you've had about filmmakers all your mates really cherish out with glee and relief.

I'll start.

If someone were to set David Lynch or John Carpenter on fire, I'd be immensely happy. I want nothing more than to be free of everyone's obsession with insisting a Surrealist with an obsession for proving that the old man who works in the soda shoppe jerks it to bestiality. I also want to stop being told a man is the voice of rebellion against dystopia because he makes shitty sci-fi and can badly play a synthesizer in a minor key.

Let's get it started.

craner
24-05-2017, 03:35 PM
The French.

luka
24-05-2017, 03:36 PM
Youve made a thread just for craner and his terrible opinions. That was charitable. You're a nice Boy crowleyhead

luka
24-05-2017, 03:37 PM
Lol speak of the devil! He even got in before me lol

craner
24-05-2017, 03:57 PM
This is the work of cretins, and Godard is the most cretinous of them all...
Guy Debord

Leo
24-05-2017, 05:30 PM
if i lived alone on a remote island with access to david lynch films but no access to the media, i'd probably think highly of him. but i don't live under those circumstances, and while my dislike isn't as strong as crowley's, i do lean in that direction. although i have to admit "blue velvet", "mulholland drive", the first season of "twin peaks" and even "eraserhead" are pretty good, if considered in a bubble apart from the fanboys.

luka
24-05-2017, 06:31 PM
Craner hates Kubrick. (and lynch too)

luka
24-05-2017, 06:34 PM
I seem to remember triggering people on here by slating Terry Malick.

craner
24-05-2017, 07:14 PM
I like The Elephant Man and the Hal section of 2001. That's about it, though, true.

firefinga
24-05-2017, 08:29 PM
"Down with Kurosawa!" *shakes fist*

firefinga
24-05-2017, 08:34 PM
Fuck off, Coen brothers.... do something worthwile with your life and become car salesmen or something.....

firefinga
24-05-2017, 08:36 PM
Haneke.... do us all a favor, and get your 80 year old ass into a retirement home already....:fire:

craner
24-05-2017, 08:42 PM
Yeah, Coen brothers are abysmal.

Corpsey
24-05-2017, 08:56 PM
I'm boring when it comes to canonical artists, I tend to think they deserve it. Even when I don't like them that much I assume I'm just not getting something that other people are.

firefinga
24-05-2017, 08:57 PM
Wes Anderson..... self explanatory really

Leo
24-05-2017, 09:00 PM
i still enjoy watching shit movies, tho.

craner
24-05-2017, 09:08 PM
My favorite Coppola film is One from the Heart.

craner
24-05-2017, 09:08 PM
My whole life seems to be telling people why films they think are shit are actually great.

Corpsey
24-05-2017, 09:12 PM
What are the most unfairly maligned movies craner?

luka
24-05-2017, 09:18 PM
Dont get him started. You can just read the eurotrash film thread. Itll be easier

luka
24-05-2017, 09:19 PM
I don't like the cohen brothers either although i like kurosawa very much and i like lynch too for that matter

luka
24-05-2017, 09:21 PM
http://www.dissensus.com/showthread.php?t=8324

Craners alternative canon

craner
24-05-2017, 09:21 PM
One from the Heart. New York, New York. Sorcerer. Goliath and the Vampires. Rabid Dogs. Danger: Diabolik. Planet of the Vampires. Cannibal Holocaust. Gone to Earth. Special Mission Lady Chaplin. Stage Fright. Stalag 17. Stromboli. Le Notti Blanche. Moonstruck. Big Wednesday. Hercules Unchained. Hitch-hike. Suspicion. Groundhog Day.

firefinga
24-05-2017, 09:21 PM
I like kurosawa very much and i like lynch too for that matter

I like Kurosawa and Lynch too, it's just I happen to dislike many of their fans :eek:

firefinga
24-05-2017, 09:24 PM
David Cronenberg was awesome until entering the 1990s. In fact it's shocking how he got the most recognition for his shittiest move "A History Of Violence"

droid
24-05-2017, 09:26 PM
Everyone mentioned here has done good work. Crowley is catastrophically wrong about Carpenter. Prince of Darkness rivals any of the great Italian horrors and the thing is one of the greatest monster films of all time. Halloween is massively overrated though.

Kubrick had one of the great runs of modern cinema - Strangelove/2001/Clockwork Orange/Barry Lyndon/Shining.

Not such of a fan of Lynch but he has his moments.

firefinga
24-05-2017, 09:28 PM
Is Carpenter in the "respectable Canon" at all?

I always thought of him as a very good genre director and can't really remember those typical "canon guys" (=the "respectable movie critics") bigging up Carpenter, either.

luka
24-05-2017, 09:32 PM
One from the Heart. New York, New York. Sorcerer. Goliath and the Vampires. Rabid Dogs. Danger: Diabolik. Planet of the Vampires. Cannibal Holocaust. Gone to Earth. Special Mission Lady Chaplin. Stage Fright. Stalag 17. Stromboli. Le Notti Blanche. Moonstruck. Big Wednesday. Hercules Unchained. Hitch-hike. Suspicion. Groundhog Day.

I've suffered the misfortune of being forcefed some of these and they are indescribably awful.

craner
24-05-2017, 09:33 PM
Lol, they're all amazing. He hasn't seen any of them. I made him watch Nightmare City once, maybe a bit of Rabid Dogs.

luka
24-05-2017, 09:37 PM
Lol, they're all amazing. He hasn't seen any of them. I made him watch Nightmare City once, maybe a bit of Rabid Dogs.

What about that sword and sandle thing you were watching when me and jim were round?

droid
24-05-2017, 09:42 PM
Some great picks from Craner there - though for a moment I thought he meant Lou Ferrigno's Cannon Hercules, and now Im underwhelmed.

craner
24-05-2017, 09:45 PM
Yeah, I like Carpenter too, even if just for The Fog, The Thing, Escape from New York and Big Trouble in Little China. Fantastic and original genre movies.

craner
24-05-2017, 09:47 PM
Nah, Hercules Unchained is a thrilling early Bava peplum entry. I will grant that this sort of thing is an acquired taste.

droid
24-05-2017, 09:53 PM
Yeah, I think I watched half of it at 4am on VHS in the late 90's.

But THIS!!!!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HX-gZX6zzgw

firefinga
24-05-2017, 09:54 PM
Cronenbergs only 1990s goodie was Crash

craner
24-05-2017, 09:55 PM
What about that sword and sandle thing you were watching when me and jim were round?

That was Giorgio Ferroni's The Trojan War. Yeah, that had a good reputation amongst the fans of this stuff but it was a bit static and overwhelmed by the budget for me. Had none of the cheap luxury, lurid sexuality, proto-psyhcedelic visyals, mad history and genre-hopping of the best of this kind. I ought to do a post on the Eurotrash thread about this stuff, as I've seen and loved so much of it.

droid
24-05-2017, 09:56 PM
I have a dissenting opinion on the fog, just cant get behind ghost pirates. Great OST though.

Corpsey
24-05-2017, 09:58 PM
Not seen a single one of those but for Groundhog Day, which I didn't realise was hated. I love it, in spite of Andi McDowell. (Who has to be a drip, really, for the mismatch to work, even if the romance ultimately doesn't.) Can't think of a conceit that better captures the feeling of depression. Not that the world is empty but that you are trapped in some tiny corner of it.

droid
24-05-2017, 10:02 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HX-gZX6zzgw

Thats prime 80's eurotrash dontchaknow. Directed by contamination creator Luigi Cozzi.

droid
24-05-2017, 10:02 PM
Not seen a single one of those but for Groundhog Day, which I didn't realise was hated. I love it, in spite of Andi McDowell. (Who has to be a drip, really, for the mismatch to work, even if the romance ultimately doesn't.) Can't think of a conceit that better captures the feeling of depression. Not that the world is empty but that you are trapped in some tiny corner of it.

I cant help but watch it whenever its on TV (yeah I know).

craner
24-05-2017, 10:08 PM
Thats prime 80's eurotrash dontchaknow. Directed by contamination creator Luigi Cozzi.

I remember you loved this. Cozzi also made a cracking giallo called The Killer Must Kill Again. Worth tracking down.

craner
24-05-2017, 10:17 PM
Yeah it is loved by lots of normal people, but:

1) Isn't taken at all seriously by you lot or the people I discourse with in a sophisticated way (who can even accept my unconditional adoration of Ghostbusters) because of its mushy and moral elements. (Same applies Moonstruck which is greater than any Woody Allen movies apart from Hannah and Her Sisters and Zelig, but never gets recognised as such. See also The Goodbye Girl.)

2) In the Harold Ramis obituaries it barely seemed to get a mention, despite being the second best thing he ever did, the best being Ghostbusters.

3) It has mush, but also serious hard edges, like the repeated attempts at suicide. Lots of people take endless and different lessons from it, to this day. It is a repeatable and profound classic.

Corpsey
24-05-2017, 10:27 PM
Yeah, it's quite amazing really how Groundhog Day has this reputation as a warm, fuzzy, mushy feelgood movie but has all the suicides and crimes and callous seductions in it. And the fact of the matter is that selfish hedonism, while a lot of fun to a point, is ultimately unsatisfying for the non psychopathic.

Reminds me of one of Kurosawa's films, actually, the wonderful Ikiru. (Though I presume Ramis's model was It's A Wonderful Life.)

craner
24-05-2017, 10:35 PM
Also, I'm not anti-mush, in much the same way I'm not anti-gore. Film is an emotional and physical medium. Feel first, then think.

craner
24-05-2017, 10:37 PM
This is why the French have no idea how to make good movies, and Godard is a cretin.

sadmanbarty
24-05-2017, 10:38 PM
Halloween's great

Cohen brothers- shite

kubrick- the shining's great, the rest is awful

lynch- blue velvet's good, the rest is shite

copolla- godfather 1 & 2 and apocalypse now are great

scorsese- all the classics are great

sadmanbarty
24-05-2017, 10:38 PM
anything not in english is rubbish

sadmanbarty
24-05-2017, 10:39 PM
bill murry's awful

Corpsey
24-05-2017, 10:58 PM
Also, I'm not anti-mush, in much the same way I'm not anti-gore. Film is an emotional and physical medium. Feel first, then think.

This explains your aversion to Kubrick and the Cohens I suppose.

I wonder if those who hate the Cohens hate "No Country for Old Men", which to me seemed the least Cohen-y thing they ever made. And probably the best.

(I'm a fan, though I can totally see why people dislike their movies. The irony, the smugness, the condescension, and so on. I didn't care for Hail, Caesar, really, in spite of Channing Tatum. But "Fargo", "The Big Lebowski", "A Serious Man", "Burn After Reading"...)

Corpsey
24-05-2017, 11:02 PM
Just been reading a book about Lucien Freud, who hated Leonardo Da Vinci and Raphael. One look at his paintings would probably tell you why. He wanted paintings to be true to life, uncomposed, with a sense of mortality to them. I think artists tend to hold the most extreme of iconoclastic opinions because they also tend to be the ones who hold the extremity of preferences necessary to spur them on to create things. Whereas the art historian or cinema historian are more inclined to subscribe to canons, and to identify things they like, or that others like, in stuff they feel no personal sympathy for.

droid
24-05-2017, 11:31 PM
Barry Lyndon is breathtakingly beautiful. Massively underrated.

Barty is clearly trolling.

baboon2004
24-05-2017, 11:37 PM
This is why the French have no idea how to make good movies, and Godard is a cretin.

There have been some lovely French films, but I nonetheless support this sentiment. The worst French films are execrable.

Lars von Trier is probably the worst filmmaker alive, in terms of how far his renown outstrips his talent.

21Grams probably the worst film Ive seen that is allegedly 'good'. Only a lunatic would hire both Sean Penn and Charlotte Gainsbourg.

droid
24-05-2017, 11:43 PM
Still annoyed that I didnt manage to trick anyone into watching 'Tout les matins du monde'.

sufi
24-05-2017, 11:51 PM
Herzog - a vague bullshitter

baboon2004
24-05-2017, 11:51 PM
Scorsese veers between the excellent - King of Comedy, Goodfellas - and the unwatchably dull - Mean Streets, Raging Bull.

Kubrick and Lynch both made missteps but seem essential to me. Both widened the posdibilities of cinema.

luka
25-05-2017, 07:34 AM
Well summed up sufi. His films also look bad. No visual sense.

firefinga
25-05-2017, 08:25 AM
Spike Lee (Inside Man was somewhat good, though)

Emir Kusturica

and the worst of em all: Wim Wenders


Herzog & Kinski = epiphanical experience :love:

CrowleyHead
25-05-2017, 01:45 PM
Craner hating Kubrick but defending Moonstruck and One From the Heart makes him a man after my own heart (pun not intended) AND Bill Murray is a disease so barty's right as well.

Carpenter's totally in the canon, at least on this end of the ocean. Every fucking film nerd wants to cry about how Robert Rodriguez remaking a shitty sci-fi dystopia film with bad acting, no real plot and no sense of cinematography shouldn't be touched by a fellow genre-film dweeb. Bullshit. Look at "Vampires" and tell me John Carpenter is SO VASTLY SUPERIOR a director than Rodriguez. Furthermore all these mouth-breathers with their clammy handed fawning of his synth soundtracks make me wretch. I want to club these people to death with their VHS collections.

I like a few French directors so I can't cosign Craner but there is something about their insistent need to be stilted that's insufferable. That's why Carax is actually better than Godard, you get the idea he's someone who goes through emotional reactions but doesn't know how to place what his sensations are making him do it. Also most of the 60s French Culture all fell in love with Bridget Bardot, who has racist teeth so... I don't have to say much.

I should say, the majority of Lynch's movies require you to understand the American Rural Suburb to a degree (of which I have no fucking time for) so I get why everyone here would have more or less muted responses. Its just in America people lose their fucking mind for an old man who's overly obsessed with the 50s and girls crying. Dune was a classic though, leave it to a man with a Bunuel fetish to make an esoteric book like that still feel that way, let alone how he got to play with design with all that money. Shame people would rather fawn over tripe like Blue Velvet.

droid
25-05-2017, 01:50 PM
Look at "Vampires" and tell me John Carpenter is SO VASTLY SUPERIOR a director than Rodriguez. Furthermore all these mouth-breathers with their clammy handed fawning of his synth soundtracks make me wretch. I want to club these people to death with their VHS collections.


False narrative. Vampires is his nadir. Came after the awful escape from LA. laughably bad and universally derided. Its like judging Tobe Hooper on 'Crocodile'.

CrowleyHead
25-05-2017, 01:50 PM
Droid actually found me on twitter, called me out! Tried to list the classics of Carpenter! I cut them all down, reduce them to ash. Rubbish. He has no classics. He's a man for people who still want to hang onto their Saturday Morning Cartoons. And that's why Rob Zombie's second Halloween is a better movie than the old man could ever manage.

droid
25-05-2017, 01:51 PM
Dune was a classic though.

Youve just invalidated every aesthetic opinion youve ever expressed AGAIN!

droid
25-05-2017, 01:53 PM
Droid actually found me on twitter, called me out! Tried to list the classics of Carpenter! I cut them all down, reduce them to ash. Rubbish. He has no classics. He's a man for people who still want to hang onto their Saturday Morning Cartoons. And that's why Rob Zombie's second Halloween is a better movie than the old man could ever manage.

lol. Like I said, you should...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iY-QBvy3lR8

CrowleyHead
25-05-2017, 01:53 PM
False narrative. Vampires is his nadir. Came after the awful escape from LA. laughably bad and universally derided. Its like judging Tobe Hooper on 'Crocodile'.

"Vampires" is good. Sense of humor, takes the genre and applies it to the foreign (the desert); its a superior extension of the Omega Man fantasy. James Woods pre-maniacal conspiracy theory mode finally having the dialog that Roddy Piper and Kurt Russell would smother to oblivion with their obsessive jaw clenching. Five stars. Also not good, but also great.

CrowleyHead
25-05-2017, 01:57 PM
Youve just invalidated every aesthetic opinion youve ever expressed AGAIN!

I can and will die on that hill. Lynch's Dune is superior to every Star Wars, Holy Mountain and its only closest rival which would be Jupiter Ascending.

droid
25-05-2017, 01:58 PM
Crowley, are you from the bizarro world?

firefinga
25-05-2017, 01:59 PM
Lynch's Dune is superior to every Star Wars,

That's not a big achivement, though. Personal opinion on Dune: masterpiece

droid
25-05-2017, 02:01 PM
Have either of you... watched it recently?

firefinga
25-05-2017, 02:03 PM
Have either of you... watched it recently?

You gotta put it into perpective.... If you imagine yourself being in the mid80s Reagen/Thatcher times, then Lynch's Dune is excellent.

firefinga
25-05-2017, 02:05 PM
Plus CrowleyHead brings up a very important point: how lame Star Wars really was.

droid
25-05-2017, 02:06 PM
I have defended it in the past, but its a mess. The narrative is all over the place, the visual effects, especially the mattes, are laughably bad and the editing is catastrophic. This is why Lynch himself disowned it.

That said, costumes and sets are magnificent and Baron Harkonnen is great. Ill give it that.

firefinga
25-05-2017, 02:10 PM
Carpenter's classics is a long list of course with Escape From New york as the pinnacle. The cast alone for that is gold.

sufi
25-05-2017, 03:39 PM
Emir Kusturica
has apparently become a right nasty piece of work having defected to Belgrade

Herzog :love::love::love:
I actually still love him and crave his attentions whenever he deigns to show up in UK< but as luka confirms we see thru his shtick by now

CrowleyHead
25-05-2017, 03:43 PM
Like 5 months ago.

Dune is ultimately a failure as a Space Opera Money Maker because few if any people understand what Lynch recognized in the book... Much of Science Fiction loves to play with messianic protagonists, and so the film itself is a post-Bunuel (go watch Bunuel's version of "Robinson Crusoe" and then watch Dune right after that, you'll see) take on the mindset of someone becoming a prophet and leading a religious war. Lynch characterizes the families in a symbolic sense to define their culture; the Atredies become Greco-Romans and the Harkonnens Scandinavian/Germanic, but makes them redheaded rather than blonde to avoid blatantly falling into expected stereotypes with the Fremen naturally falling into the sufi/moor-like position Herbert already had them in. (The Corrinos inevitably are the British, with the particular line of "This Is Genocide" by the Emperor

He knows that in the x amount of minutes you can't communicate the ideas of these people and the lore because ffs, you have to constantly make everything a semiotic device. When De Laurentis figures Dune is going to be his Star Wars he lets Lynch spend eons making all these unnecessary visual devices but then he's also thinking its going to be his Star Wars and rather than get a hodge-podge of standard American Cinema tropes (the Red Baron dogfight, the swordfight, the wild west bar shootout) he's getting A FUCKING JIHAD. HOW DO YOU SELL THE WESTERN WORLD A JIHAD? This is all stuff from the book that is being transmitted in a way that isn't the easy kitsch of Besson or the hamming overtones of a Jodorowsky.

Its Lynch at his finest as a visualist, but without his constant sense of transference that plagues his more beloved work with his over-infatuation with Americana or the blatant "I don't deserve this" self-pity trip about his first marriage that was Eraserhead. The film is a constantly austere, unrelenting and frigid because he's disconnected to the material.

And look he actually makes Irulan relevant which the book never bothered to accomplish so fucking hell he got one over on Herbert. I imagine that if he got to Round 2 he'd actually try to be more sympathetic to her character for Dune Messiah, an irony because Dune Messiah is the folly of the escapist wayward husband with delusions of grandeur.

https://68.media.tumblr.com/d4a99fd410d86888972ab62ac875518d/tumblr_oi7gp4d8Dt1qdr6nio9_540.png

https://68.media.tumblr.com/b2cc5a0c6cea9429fc437a8ea74e4e5c/tumblr_nk3mr2sG8m1qdr6nio3_540.png

https://68.media.tumblr.com/37ca38fc2b4c46cb70eb5b0a19e8a8e7/tumblr_nk3mr2sG8m1qdr6nio2_540.png

https://68.media.tumblr.com/ed1561546d5bc4fa5c24713d31ea787d/tumblr_nvkdwznXFL1qdr6nio9_540.png

https://68.media.tumblr.com/d5f9a302665e522e270f5d219e369693/tumblr_nmvfo4zDUM1qdr6nio4_540.png

https://68.media.tumblr.com/de22fbec089d53cd0ee39eaeac02df87/tumblr_nmvfo4zDUM1qdr6nio5_540.png

droid
25-05-2017, 03:50 PM
http://www.jewmalt.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/dune2.jpg

firefinga
25-05-2017, 03:59 PM
http://www.jewmalt.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/dune2.jpg

another supreme Lynchian move - highlighting the ridiculousness that was/is Sting :D

droid
25-05-2017, 04:27 PM
lol. I cant believe Ive found two people willing to double down on Sting in the same day.

Dune has given us this spectacle at least.

CrowleyHead
25-05-2017, 04:51 PM
Luka's about to make it a triple down and we bout to take the Dissensus Triple Crown baybeeeee

droid
25-05-2017, 05:03 PM
Perfect!

http://i.imgur.com/ppMtAtG.png?1

Corpsey
25-05-2017, 05:06 PM
I think I might have done that in Egypt once.

Mr. Tea
25-05-2017, 05:11 PM
I have defended it in the past, but its a mess. The narrative is all over the place, the visual effects, especially the mattes, are laughably bad and the editing is catastrophic. This is why Lynch himself disowned it.

That said, costumes and sets are magnificent and Baron Harkonnen is great. Ill give it that.

And let's not forget Francesca Annis as Lady Jessica:

http://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/b9/df/c9/b9dfc928057c6290555125c01564793a.jpg

Or Freddie Jones's eyebrows!

luka
25-05-2017, 06:07 PM
Stings opening scene is one of the best in all of cinema

luka
25-05-2017, 06:11 PM
Hes resplendent

CrowleyHead
25-05-2017, 09:51 PM
THREE-PEAT. THROW IN THE TOWEL DROID.

Mr. Tea
25-05-2017, 10:10 PM
Hes resplendent

Great word. Yes, he is that.

I like how you can instantly tell the Harkonnens are evil because they're all ginger.

luka
25-05-2017, 10:15 PM
250

droid
25-05-2017, 11:07 PM
I've had the Dune argument too many times and Im so tired. Currently arguing the other side again on whatsapp. I think I might just pit you against each other.

craner
25-05-2017, 11:29 PM
I agree with Droid, even though I've never seen the film. The combination of David Lynch, Sting and sci-fi is a repulsive proposition on its face. Who needs to watch that, ffs?

droid
25-05-2017, 11:40 PM
Oh, you should totally watch it - but youd have to get REALLY stoned first.