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View Full Version : Why Do Millenials Hate Genre?



CrowleyHead
14-06-2017, 10:55 PM
"Genre doesn't exist maaaan" "I don't want to have to be bound by rules." "We get to do anything we want!"

I don't need nuance here. Blurt it out baby. I know some of you are the millenials, and some of y'all are not and hate us, and some of you do both. Let's make it happen baby.

CrowleyHead
14-06-2017, 10:56 PM
I wasn't millenial enough to incite rage.



bby.

baboon2004
14-06-2017, 11:00 PM
is the answer, dubstep?

luka
14-06-2017, 11:44 PM
Ipod

sadmanbarty
14-06-2017, 11:48 PM
Ironic detachment. They don't want to commit, or be sincere, or stand for anything. they don't want to be associated with anything. they want to be everything, which makes them nothing.

luka
14-06-2017, 11:51 PM
Maybe smb but i say itunes

sadmanbarty
14-06-2017, 11:56 PM
Maybe smb but i say itunes

it was that compulsory u2 album that fucked it for everyone.

CrowleyHead
15-06-2017, 03:21 AM
is the answer, dubstep?

Dubstep was something. The ultimate millenial saga is the post-dubstep saga. Everyone deciding rather than be stuck doing dubstep, running away in any direction "I'LL DO HOUSE!""I'LL DO TECHNO!""I'LL DO GRIME!" and leaving behind dubstep frantically. Only OLDS like Mala stay behind in Dubstep and dedicate themselves to the field. A bunch of white euros with no self-consciousness temporarily hijacking footwork, a black American genre, and tossing it away out of boredom after two years unless it becomes IDM (JLin) is emblematic of millennials fear of having to be stuck doing something for the rest of their lives.

The whine of the millenial is a feeble cry of 'why do I gotta be put in a BOX?'. Dedication implies confinement, subjugation, entrapment. Better to do anything you could want and anything you desire.

The irony is if you're a millenial who believes in investing in an aesthetic, its about orthodoxy, fulfilling the expectations to a letter that becomes a costume. J KOLL as The Rapper. Festival rock Bands who do soulless lifeless blues rock. House Purists trying to make songs that would've sounded redundant in 1991 but feels 'soulful and earnest' compared to the insidious evil of EDM's modernity which itself is parasitic and cannot stay in one mode/style as its a genre that doesn't actually exist.

CrowleyHead
15-06-2017, 03:22 AM
Maybe smb but i say itunes

I'm going to have to one up you and say, Napster.

john eden
15-06-2017, 10:45 AM
I think it's more that an absolute subcultural tribalism looks less attractive when there are more than simple binary choices.

In my first year at secondary school you could either like heavy metal or two tone. (Or pretend to like metal, but harbour a secret love for Soft Cell in my case).

When I was a teenager you were basically either a casual or a goth.

There was an intensity to this which was quite appealing at the time, but this intensity was policed by verbal and physical violence.

I think kids are just more accepting of each other, and difference, these days.

DannyL
15-06-2017, 11:03 AM
I think it's more that an absolute subcultural tribalism looks less attractive when there are more than simple binary choices.

In my first year at secondary school you could either like heavy metal or two tone. (Or pretend to like metal, but harbour a secret love for Soft Cell in my case).

When I was a teenager you were basically either a casual or a goth.

There was an intensity to this which was quite appealing at the time, but this intensity was policed by verbal and physical violence.

I think kids are just more accepting of each other, and difference, these days.

And social media and communications tech makes it virtually impossible for things to survive and grow in the dark or "underground" as it quaintly used to be called.

firefinga
15-06-2017, 11:38 AM
Millenials lead happy lives via their smartphones. There are two genres though, one is IOS, the other Android.

CrowleyHead
15-06-2017, 12:44 PM
I think kids are just more accepting of each other, and difference, these days.

Not to be rude but you probably think that because you're so much further from being an adolescent. (Also are you a father now or do I mis-imagine that detail? Without trying to be overly familiar.)

The whole franticness of identity politics in the modern age in my opinion comes out of voracious policing kids do of each other "If you like x you're y". It doesn't always translate into external violence like it would in say the last 50 years of the 1900s has an established history of, but in the absence of the physical violence even when it doesn't exist is the emotional/mental pressures by peers or even by adults. Which is why when millenials come into adulthood, they're often obsessively attempting to redeem what they liked beforehand that invoked scorn.

I can't compare the UK and the US because as similar as they are obviously there's loads of differences but even in a genre like rap there's so much loaded in selecting artists, liking music, social contexts, associations.

The actual reason that I brought this up was an article about a popular R&B singer in America where the author feels reluctance, frustration and almost resentment that he is a traditional R&B singer making R&B music in the tropes of soul/post-90s R&B rather than the sort of... pop everythingness of say modern artists like a Weeknd or Frank Ocean. I don't have a context that necessarily fits for anyone else's perspective but to me that reads of a weird punishing for someone who willingly accepts a cliched role based on his genre, the expectations placed upon him. He 'should' be as Barty said "Everything and Nothing", not Something Very Specific.

john eden
15-06-2017, 01:07 PM
Yeah I have 15 year old daughter, so my perspective is definitely skewed by that and it's hard to say how typical she is. But she has friends who span the typical North London ethnic and class matrix.

I think my point is that, sure, these things are policed, still. But they are policed a whole lot less than they used to be.

So my daughter seems pretty OK with kids being gay, vegan, trans, emo, into grime, gamers, those dudes who are into my little pony, etc.

Her own musical tastes are pretty much "urban" and actually seem to focus specifically on some artists rather than a general breadth of stuff. But I mean she is 15 so I wouldn't expect her to actively embrace a tonne of different things yet. She knows about drill and trap and all this stuff I'm only vaguely aware of.

I think that being able to be a black punk who is also gay, or a muslim skateboarder who supports Arsenal and likes grime is in some ways still quite confining but it's not as confining as not being able to be these things, which is what we had in the 70s and 80s.

sadmanbarty
15-06-2017, 02:34 PM
typical North London... dudes who are into my little pony, a black punk who is also gay, or a muslim skateboarder who supports Arsenal and likes grime

.

john eden
15-06-2017, 02:35 PM
.

Hey I don't make the rules here.

m99188868
15-06-2017, 02:49 PM
is the answer, dubstep?

The surprising thing about dubstep is not so much the exodus, but the fact that it managed to create a sense of belonging/identity to begin with.

I am not convinced that this is something exclusive to millenials either. True, I am one and I love nothing more than the moments before a new musical idea falls into institutionalised patterns. But at the same time, it seems a matter of a simple opposition between mainstream and countercultures based in music, which has been around for at least half a century. What changed is the speed by which that opposition loses its meaning and so degrades its potential as a means for distinction. It's hardly cool to like and identify with dubstep when your neighbour as well blasts it all day.

firefinga
15-06-2017, 03:07 PM
The surprising thing about dubstep is not so much the exodus, but the fact that it managed to create a sense of belonging/identity to begin with.

For what it's worth, Dubstep is probably the last time that template of a music-based "scene"/underground vs mainstream thing worked, at least in the western world.

CrowleyHead
15-06-2017, 04:27 PM
John, without trying to kiss up to you, that's possibly a reflection of you and not every kid is going to be as good as yours obviously. And not to sound like I'm baiting you but objectively there's no doubt people inflicting the expectations on your daughter as much as she might NOT do that.

But then again you're in London and maybe my American-ness influences that expectation though...

CrowleyHead
15-06-2017, 04:30 PM
For what it's worth, Dubstep is probably the last time that template of a music-based "scene"/underground vs mainstream thing worked, at least in the western world.

Dubstep was never underground if we're being honest with ourselves.

john eden
15-06-2017, 04:35 PM
John, without trying to kiss up to you, that's possibly a reflection of you and not every kid is going to be as good as yours obviously. And not to sound like I'm baiting you but objectively there's no doubt people inflicting the expectations on your daughter as much as she might NOT do that.

But then again you're in London and maybe my American-ness influences that expectation though...

Ha! No worries, she is a good kid so I dunno. I think a lot of this stuff is mainly about boys/blokes anyway, isn't it?

I make no claims for objectivity about the youth, just adding in my perspective really.

john eden
15-06-2017, 04:41 PM
Dubstep was never underground if we're being honest with ourselves.

I have some sympathy with that - I think by the time it was dubstep it was pretty easy to hear about. Loads of threads on dubstep forum about "protecting the scene" etc and the "wrong" people getting into it.

But people definitely were trying to will it into being underground or the next phase of the 'arkdore continuum, something like jungle but for their generation...

rubberdingyrapids
16-06-2017, 03:27 PM
not read any of the replies but youre all wrong.

rubberdingyrapids
16-06-2017, 03:32 PM
millenials dont have the luxury of genre wars - its easy to get all tribal about genre when there is an identifiable route to making money from said genre. when there isnt, you have to try a bit of everything. like in the early days of recorded music, where many/most musicians would do it all.
millennials are more into collaboration than conflict
their parents fought the genre wars so this generation didnt have to
genre wars were only fought cos people were blind/blinkered/shut off to/didnt know FA about other genres - now you get rock, rap, dance music, all being played side by side on things like the annie mac show

i think the death of genre is overstated. the idea that all young ppl now like everything is also kind of erroneous. the new tribes are hung together by other descriptors/aesthetics.

CrowleyHead
16-06-2017, 06:44 PM
I said that they HATED genre, not that genre is actually dead.

But your points about the ambiguity of how to make money from that is probably very close to the matter.

rubberdingyrapids
16-06-2017, 07:14 PM
I said that they HATED genre, not that genre is actually dead.

But your points about the ambiguity of how to make money from that is probably very close to the matter.

well millenials are kinda hippy ish in their idealism so it's no surprise

plus who wants all that old boring genre war shit which must seem so old and ancient

CrowleyHead
17-06-2017, 01:43 PM
That's a misnomer, not every millenial is into social justice and identity politics. Plenty are nihilistic and apathetic, and some are incredibly traditionalist and conservative in numbers of ways. That there hasn't been a Millenial rebranding of the Hippie the way you could argue crusties or ravers embodied some of that spirit says a bit.

I gotta double back and argue Napster is what did it. Luka was right to say 'the deasthetication of music devalued it' w/ the iPod/iTunes but imho its rather 'the devaluing of music deastheticized it'. It's a chicken or egg type scenario, but iTunes really is the attempt to financially put your finger in the metaphorical dike of the fact that for the past 17 years, music has existed with the premise "Its not really worth money, is it?" lingering in the background. Obviously tape recording off the radio or even wholesale copying existed before then. But there was never services or communities built around the underlying principle of "Why should money stop me from enjoying music?"

As a result, music does not have power. The idea of the collector of a niche genre like say Northern Soul or whatever is not basing his interests around aesthetic value but rather on depreciation and scarcity. The records become either super cheap, or super overpriced, never what their value was at the time of living in the moment. They essentially become trading cards or exclusive sneakers, or stocks and bonds. The documents themselves rarely hold their value for their service (I say that while my own collection is winking at my fucking face and taunting me for serving a lot of similar goals).

So if the items themselves are useless, the indicators of style, of choice, are likewise made archaic. Instead music becomes a weird, smeary, glob effect of music for music's sake that is unwilling to limit itself. Every choice becomes no choice.

firefinga
17-06-2017, 02:27 PM
That "devaluation of music thing" is an interesting aspect, bc IMO it clearly began with the dance era. Before that you'd buy an album, or a single of a singer/group you'd like and go to the concerts - which also did only last for maybe 2 hours - you would pay quite some money for the product.

With dance all of a sudden you'd have a muscial experience more often, longer hours. As great as the music was, and also the collective experience on the dancefloor, the music as a thing you'd pay for got "devalued" in so far that you pay the entrance fee for the club and enjoyed 5 hrs of music for a bargain really.

m99188868
17-06-2017, 02:36 PM
it clearly began with the dance era.

I think you could quite easily argue that every technological invention relevant to music, from notation to reproduction media, has in a certain sense had the double outcome of both facilitating the growing omnipresence of music and, by a consequence, feedings its devaluation. To a point we'd now probably rather pay for silence than for music.

sadmanbarty
17-06-2017, 03:41 PM
That's a misnomer, not every millenial is into social justice and identity politics. Plenty are nihilistic and apathetic, and some are incredibly traditionalist and conservative in numbers of ways.

This reframes the question quite a bit. The term 'millennial' to my mind means white, middle class, university educated, politically correct, etc. and I'd agree that those people don't identify with genres. But if you're broadening the definition to anyone born between 1990 and 2000 then you can't really say they don't identify with genre. In London afrobeats is very much a symbol of identity. Bashment was until the last couple of years. UK drill. Mumble rap's evoked a bit of genre war. A couple of years ago weren't there tons of LA artists explicitly flying the flag for west coast hip hop; whether that be mustard-style beats or G-funk influenced things (this is more your expertise than mine)?

CrowleyHead
17-06-2017, 05:37 PM
barty;

I personally feel, as a reflection of how the industry compartmentalizes itself, that class affects how we view music. Streaming has become the current ecology of 'modernity' of music, and likewise artists are encouraged to not only make records that suit streaming (there's a big conspiracy that albums have over 22+ tracks these days to ensure the profits made from streaming to bolster the reputations of albums that will not be purchased) whereas records who sell a lot of units get very little to no recognition. In the US, Kevin Gates sold well in the 6 figure range in rap, and is one of the most popular artists in radio and occasionally in streaming... but in the deep rural south among mostly black listeners, who are not considered a desirable audience. Eminem is likewise as much in the rural west away from urban areas. And those are two rap artists who are mostly looked at with derision by 'young, hip, net savvy' kids on the internet.

I don't think it's entirely unfair that, because of circumstances of their environment that makes them less self-conscious... A lot of those persons don't fall into the expectations of the millenial you outlined. Not to say that it's because they're from parts of america that makes them less of anything than those who do. But these artists have no media power. They exist within the music industry and do significantly well, but have nothing that makes them feel aesthetic value. The active process of that traditional source of income within music, sales, is getting moved past so aggressively thanks to technology that the music industry is literally cutting itself away from turning back. And I don't think it's entirely coincidental that those artists are such codified genre artists as well.

I should actually clarify... I think that rather than establish a financial class, the internet has been establishing classes of technological familiarity that almost work along social class lines. You can be from any educational, social, racial, etc. backgrounds and the connection to yourself and your identity along these 'networked' lines makes it hard to unplug once you've had access to this sense of connectivity. To the point now artists have separate careers outside of traditional media based solely around internet fame where if you're not the person who's plugged in, none of it makes any sense because they don't have that 'real world' fame.

The thing is, for almost a full decade, Road Rap existed outside of the internet's eye. It was there, it racked up huge numbers, it was big but the internet didn't touch it primarily. That changes at a certain point over the last few years with Drill which is in itself a hijacking of a Real World rap culture from America. The reality of the road rap identity dissolves with acts like 67 or Section Boyz, talking about trapping, drillers, stolen catchphrases from Chief Keef and Drake. That isn't an American identity per se, its an internet identity an identity formed by the homogenity. And like that, we're seeing much much more of the media acknowledging and liking Road Rap, especially now that grime's nostalgia value was oversaturated in the wake of grime in the 2010s being less about people mixing mutual genre baggage into conforming into an acceptable identity of an MC.

CrowleyHead
17-06-2017, 05:45 PM
I think you could quite easily argue that every technological invention relevant to music, from notation to reproduction media, has in a certain sense had the double outcome of both facilitating the growing omnipresence of music and, by a consequence, feedings its devaluation. To a point we'd now probably rather pay for silence than for music.

Funny thing that touches on everything you say: https://www.jacobinmag.com/2014/07/all-power-to-the-pack-rats/

m99188868
17-06-2017, 06:51 PM
Funny thing that touches on everything you say: https://www.jacobinmag.com/2014/07/all-power-to-the-pack-rats/

Seems an interesting read, thank you.

rubberdingyrapids
19-06-2017, 01:06 PM
obv if youre poor, spotify, and whatever other streaming services arent going to mean anything to you. thats the internet in general. the problem of everything going online assumes everyone has easy access to the internet, and that they know how to use it. but most genres today are on the net, on youtube, whether youre in the favelas or on a peckham housing estate. its the cheapest way to get heard and distribute your music. i would say yeah theres prob plenty kids in south london who arent really that interested in much outside rap (i cant imagine there are many only into road rap however.... though who knows), but the idea of it being like the 90s where youd get people ferociously defending their genre, or attacking other genres, is pretty much moot. even today with grime, as its become something more mainstream, no one is really getting into any genre wars. its more 'grime is good' rather than 'grime is good... your genre is shit'. that defensive posture isnt there. or needed maybe. cos if youre into grime, youre prob seeking it out and theres enough outlets all on the web for you to feel youre being catered to. the attitude is more about 'i want my place' rather than 'fuck your place.. im taking your place'.

mistersloane
19-06-2017, 04:54 PM
barty;

I personally feel, as a reflection of how the industry compartmentalizes itself, that class affects how we view music. Streaming has become the current ecology of 'modernity' of music, and likewise artists are encouraged to not only make records that suit streaming (there's a big conspiracy that albums have over 22+ tracks these days to ensure the profits made from streaming to bolster the reputations of albums that will not be purchased) whereas records who sell a lot of units get very little to no recognition. In the US, Kevin Gates sold well in the 6 figure range in rap, and is one of the most popular artists in radio and occasionally in streaming... but in the deep rural south among mostly black listeners, who are not considered a desirable audience. Eminem is likewise as much in the rural west away from urban areas. And those are two rap artists who are mostly looked at with derision by 'young, hip, net savvy' kids on the internet.

I don't think it's entirely unfair that, because of circumstances of their environment that makes them less self-conscious... A lot of those persons don't fall into the expectations of the millenial you outlined. Not to say that it's because they're from parts of america that makes them less of anything than those who do. But these artists have no media power. They exist within the music industry and do significantly well, but have nothing that makes them feel aesthetic value. The active process of that traditional source of income within music, sales, is getting moved past so aggressively thanks to technology that the music industry is literally cutting itself away from turning back. And I don't think it's entirely coincidental that those artists are such codified genre artists as well.

I should actually clarify... I think that rather than establish a financial class, the internet has been establishing classes of technological familiarity that almost work along social class lines. You can be from any educational, social, racial, etc. backgrounds and the connection to yourself and your identity along these 'networked' lines makes it hard to unplug once you've had access to this sense of connectivity. To the point now artists have separate careers outside of traditional media based solely around internet fame where if you're not the person who's plugged in, none of it makes any sense because they don't have that 'real world' fame.

The thing is, for almost a full decade, Road Rap existed outside of the internet's eye. It was there, it racked up huge numbers, it was big but the internet didn't touch it primarily. That changes at a certain point over the last few years with Drill which is in itself a hijacking of a Real World rap culture from America. The reality of the road rap identity dissolves with acts like 67 or Section Boyz, talking about trapping, drillers, stolen catchphrases from Chief Keef and Drake. That isn't an American identity per se, its an internet identity an identity formed by the homogenity. And like that, we're seeing much much more of the media acknowledging and liking Road Rap, especially now that grime's nostalgia value was oversaturated in the wake of grime in the 2010s being less about people mixing mutual genre baggage into conforming into an acceptable identity of an MC.

Hahaha (Frankie Boyle voice) you actually wrote that crap

mistersloane
19-06-2017, 04:55 PM
Hahaha (Frankie Boyle voice) you actually wrote that crap

Fuckin hell man

mistersloane
19-06-2017, 04:56 PM
Well done yo​u.

mistersloane
19-06-2017, 04:59 PM
I don't think it's entirely unfair that, because of circumstances of their environment that makes them less self-conscious... A lot of those persons don't fall into the expectations of the millenial you outlined.

Explain your cock fucking explanations you cock

No, really. Go on.

mistersloane
19-06-2017, 05:04 PM
xxx

mistersloane
19-06-2017, 05:13 PM
Come now

CrowleyHead
20-06-2017, 12:34 AM
I probably wrote myself into a hole at least twice tbf so if you think there's an argument you'd like to make against me I'll hear it. More than likely I fucked up whatever I meant to say.

firefinga
20-06-2017, 04:05 PM
@genre wars .... I was a teenager through the 1990s and frankly, can't even remember much genre warfare going on back then. There was the indie-rock crowd though who would be somewhat hostile towards dance and Hip Hop, mostly motivated by the very conservative notion of those two genres being sample based/done with synths and computers it wasn't "honest" music bc they didn't play "real instruments".

martin
21-06-2017, 11:58 PM
Think people are mixing up 'genres' with 'subcultures', though. The fashion element was also important. You could have a zillion Trojan and Blue Beat records but if you turned up to a skinhead bash with the wrong size turn-ups, or a pair of winkle-pickers, you'd be exposed as a dilletante or - even worse - a POSER (and probably given a kick up the arse).

Similarly, one of the most strikingly goth-looking people I've ever met was far more interested in stuff like Michelle Shocked, 10,000 Maniacs, etc, than anything that'd make a Quietus 'Top 20 Goth Records Ever' list. And I doubt townies hated emos purely on musical grounds.

It did all fizzle out by the 1990s, though. Or at least became more simple. Where I lived, it was kids in flattop cuts, fluorescent ski jackets, Mr Byrite jeans or shellsuits vs. anyone who looked remotely different (or dressed in black).



here was the indie-rock crowd though who would be somewhat hostile towards dance and Hip Hop

Agree about dance though, in my personal experience, almost everyone I knew in the early '90s, even the indie crowd, were pretty familiar with PE and NWA at least, if only for the notoriety. 'Black Sunday' seemed as much a staple platter as 'Nevermind'.

martin
22-06-2017, 12:21 AM
skateboarder who supports Arsenal

Can't think of anything that screams out 'wanker' more

rubberdingyrapids
22-06-2017, 02:41 PM
There was the indie-rock crowd though who would be somewhat hostile towards dance and Hip Hop, mostly motivated by the very conservative notion of those two genres being sample based/done with synths and computers it wasn't "honest" music bc they didn't play "real instruments".

thats a genre war
i remember my 6th form in the 90s and indie kids would not touch r&b or rap or garage.
unless it was a gorillaz remix.
doesnt mean they wanted to fight you. but genre wars can include derision, dismissal, rather than outright aggression.

john eden
22-06-2017, 05:01 PM
Can't think of anything that screams out 'wanker' more

The folly of youth.