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luka
01-03-2018, 10:42 AM
i rate some of this stuff. i just dont like the stupid campy vocals. david tibet wittering on about primal dread or something, coil doing a stage whisper about mystic owls. can do without that. basically talking about the music discussed in englands hidden reverse.
Nurse with wound records often sound really good but hes got a nerds sense of humour which can ruin them for me a bit. coil when theyre instrumental is good. i really like time machines. i really like all that tunnel of goats stuff. both groups create good immersive atmospheres.

luka
01-03-2018, 10:45 AM
491

etc etc

luka
01-03-2018, 10:46 AM
obviously they look awful as well which is off putting.

luka
01-03-2018, 10:52 AM
i like how you can listen to a youtube playlist of the entire nurse with wound list now. internet democracy. levels the playing field. love it.

luka
01-03-2018, 10:53 AM
stapleton disowned this record and called stereolab a bunch of lightweights so for that reason it's my favourite
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSychSVOSaI

luka
01-03-2018, 11:07 AM
in terms of cultural capital coil stocks are definitely highest from what i can tell. throbbing gristle too although porridge's reputation is probably soiled beyond redemption. just seems like a sad clown now.

Mr. Tea
01-03-2018, 11:20 AM
Musick by/for wrong-uns, or wrong un-musick?

I hear GPO has had a touch of the old leukaemia lately, hope s/he pulls through.

luka
01-03-2018, 11:30 AM
well what do you like tea and why do you like it? in this field. what do you think about it?

luka
01-03-2018, 11:30 AM
its not a trap

Mr. Tea
01-03-2018, 12:03 PM
I'm actually not very well versed in it. Got a bunch of TG albums (by no means all or most of them) and saw them at their last ever gig. It's interesting and challenging, not stuff to listen to casually or often, of course. I strongly suspect it's music you had to be around for at the time to really get just what was so revolutionary about it (though you can probably say the same about jazz or early hip-hop or any kind of music that's revolutionary in its own day). Having said that, plenty of it is still pretty shocking and arresting today - listen to Hamburger Lady and tell me it isn't the creepiest thing ever recorded.

I think this is why Gen pretty much packed in industrial music after TG split and concentrated on dance music and psych-y pop-rock, because as far as he was concerned industrial had run its course.

There's some cool Coil stuff but I've barely scratched the surface of their discography. Chris and Cosey did some good later stuff but from what I've heard it tends more towards slick synthpop so can't really be bracketed with what you're talking about here. No idea about Current 93 really. Cabaret Voltaire were good, if they belong here, also went off in a very acid house direction in the later 80s.

John Eden has surely forgotten more about this scene than I know about it, so don't set any great store by my words. I think I saw him at that TG gig and waved, but he ignored me because he thinks I'm a tiresome fool.

martin
01-03-2018, 12:07 PM
Current 93 are very silly, even by goth standards. Best thing they ever did was Side 2 of Nature Unveiled (or whichever side it is that has Annie Anxiety speaking in tongues at the start), but they pretty much ceased to be 'industrial' (or listenable) after 'In Menstrual Night', when Tibet apparently received the misguided revelation that he could sing, or that the world needed a Death In June MkII, albeit with cryptic lyrics about missing cats and Noddy.

To me, Coil were two separate groups: the urban 80s/early 90s in-your-face gay occult disco merchants, who ruled, and the bunch of knackered old rural fairies who sullied the early 2000s with a load of pre-Ghostbox crap about broccoli and night elves that excites dad bloggers so much. 'Scatology', 'Horse Rotorvator' and 'LSD' are all you really need. 'Time Machines' is OK but I'm very picky about drone since hearing 'Chaotica' by Tom Recchion. Sadly, they are proof that dabbling in the dark arts often leads to penury and death by misadventure.

NWW records are amazing just for the artwork alone, though I kind of went off him A BIT when listening to some of those 'NWW list' records and realising he ripped off huge chunks of them. Not just samples, but whole sections of music got lifted. That said, I'm glad he's still churning them out and frustrating record collectors with limited editions of 23 with silkscreen covers that go for £500 on Discogs.

Obviously only a complete loser would listen to Muslimgauze. Psychic TV were OK, sometimes, I guess, but as an ex-cat lick, I never really got into magick - been there, done that with real saints. Everything TG did between 1975-1981 was amazing and even that rubbish comeback album they made couldn't destroy that.

"I think nearly everyone in this genre or into it is fucked up or damaged in some way" - Kevin Tomkins, Sutcliffe Jugend

luka
01-03-2018, 12:11 PM
great, wise and very funny summary.

luka
01-03-2018, 12:53 PM
I kind of went off him A BIT when listening to some of those 'NWW list' records and realising he ripped off huge chunks of them. Not just samples, but whole sections of music got lifted.

a gateway drug in as much as it serves as introduction to particular techniques and conceptual approaches.

john eden
01-03-2018, 12:56 PM
I think you are right about the vocals, Luka. They were definitely a product of the "anyone can do it" punk ethos which was BAD.

The stuff that has aged the best was instrumental and also less wedded to overt philosophy/spookiness. These days I would listen to things like Organum and Nocturnal Emissions more than TG or Coil. All of them suffer from huge discographies though so you need to pick the best bits.

The Lemon Kittens remain worth a go and they have vocals...

I've only seen TG once (at Village Underground) and I don't remember Mr Tea waving at me. He's quite good IRL so I probably would have said hello. I ended up standing behind some twats in Death In June t-shirts so possibly wasn't in the best of moods.

I think most of what I got out of industrial music I no longer need or can get from elsewhere.

john eden
01-03-2018, 12:59 PM
Canon:

Throbbing Gristle: 2nd Annual Report, DOA, 20 Jazz Funk Greats, Heathen Earth

Psychic TV: Force The Hand of Chance, Dreams Less Sweet

Coil: Scatology, Horse Rotorvator, Loves Secret Domain

Current 93: Nature Unveiled

Nurse With Wound: Homotopy To Marie, Soliloquy For Lilith

Cabaret Voltaire - Red Mecca

john eden
01-03-2018, 01:03 PM
Other bits:

Nocturnal Emissions - Stoneface
Scraping Foetus Off The Wheel - Nail
Organum - Submission
Einsturzende Neubauten - Halber Mensch
Test Dept - The Unacceptable Face of Freedom
Whitehouse - Great White Death

martin
01-03-2018, 02:26 PM
a gateway drug in as much as it serves as introduction to particular techniques and conceptual approaches.

That's true, but there's always a thin line between that and becoming the DJ Shadow of the psychedelic underground.

IIRC, Woebot slated him for plundering some African record he (Woebot) was fond of (well I guess both of them were...)

CrowleyHead
01-03-2018, 02:49 PM
Coil is musically useless save for the novelty AIDS "Tainted Love" cover. Terrible group.

Admittedly I'm incredibly biased against the TG camp because I consider all of them except Chris Carter loathsome people (he mostly escapes my judgement because he's too much of a nerd. You get the feeling if he hadn't fallen in with them he'd be like a Special Effects Guru for movies who people regarded as 'odd but decent'. Truly built to live in a basement.)

Cabaret Voltaire were good. Einsturzende were good. Never got into NWW.

Admittedly a lot of my dalliances with this comes with "Second Wave" or whatever stuff like Ministry b/c y'know, born in 89 and what have you. Al Jourgenson admitting in his book that he stole all the techniques he learned from Adrian Sherwood and then proceeded to use them as A Producer in the proper sense and not just vapid delusions of being the white Lee Perry. I respect that more than the sea of COUM performances or what have you.

martin
01-03-2018, 02:49 PM
John's lists are good.

I'd definitely add:

SPK: Information Overload Unit / Leichenschrei /Auto Da Fe - adds the whole 'Videodrome'/K-Punk element to the 'scene'...dripping with Cold War paranoia, disgust at the human form, car-crash cadaver/porn star mash-ups - all while being as noisy, narky and alienating as possible. Ended up as a dreadful synthpop act and then scoring the theme to 'Nip and Tuck'.

Cabaret Voltaire: The Living Legends - the albums were good, but the short-burst single/EP tracks were brilliant. All the conspiracy weirdness of TG/PTV without the 'psychic youth' lifestyle crutch. If all white reggae was like 'Silent Command' I wouldn't have an issue.

Nocturnal Emissions: Drowning In A Sea Of Bliss / Befehlsnotstand - John chose a softer ambient one, so here's their two major noisy works. Like hurtling through a Bladerunner-style, undeveloped, early 80s Docklands, complete with US army propaganda, clanking robot rhythms based on shield/baton riot police taunts, lab monkey screams mangled into ungodly feedback - and then sudden bursts of early hip hop. Stunning pair of albums. God knows how many hours of grim documentaries these people had to sit through to get the range of samples of extreme right drill sargeants, Christian ex-junkies, emotionless surgeons.

Laughing Hands: Dog Photos - Australian obscurity that's criminally ignored in favour of 'shock jock', 2nd rate garbage. Totally bleak dystopian feel, but with real moments of beauty. No clue about the folks responsible.

Consumer Electronics - Crowd Pleaser/Dollhouse Songs

Mr. Tea
01-03-2018, 03:24 PM
I've only seen TG once (at Village Underground) and I don't remember Mr Tea waving at me. He's quite good IRL so I probably would have said hello. I ended up standing behind some twats in Death In June t-shirts so possibly wasn't in the best of moods.


Phew! :)

Seconded on the Neubauten, they were great, very innovative. I like Drawings of Patient O.T. - all power tools, found objects being bashed together, skronky post-punk guitar/bass and Blixa B chanting and whispering like he hasn't slept in a few days. Though I dunno if they have any particular connection to the UK weirdo scene beyond the 'industrial' label.

Any love for Cabaret Voltaire's slightly later, dancier, (*gulp*) more commercial stuff? 'Sensoria', 'I Want You', 'James Brown' etc. Slick and pleasingly cynical-sounding.

john eden
01-03-2018, 03:39 PM
Phew! :)

Seconded on the Neubauten, they were great, very innovative. I like Drawings of Patient O.T. - all power tools, found objects being bashed together, skronky post-punk guitar/bass and Blixa B chanting and whispering like he hasn't slept in a few days. Though I dunno if they have any particular connection to the UK weirdo scene beyond the 'industrial' label.

Any love for Cabaret Voltaire's slightly later, dancier, (*gulp*) more commercial stuff? 'Sensoria', 'I Want You', 'James Brown' etc. Slick and pleasingly cynical-sounding.

Neubauten were signed to Some Bizzare and did a collab with Fad Gadget... who accompanied them with G-PO at their infamous ICA gig where they tried to piledrive a hole in the stage.

That mid 80s Cabs stuff was great too (and also on Some Bizzare).

This was a big compilation for me: https://www.discogs.com/Various-If-You-Cant-Please-Yourself-You-Cant-Please-Your-Soul/master/21529

martin
01-03-2018, 03:56 PM
John - would you recommend Irene's Cunt? Yet to sample it.

Mr. Tea
01-03-2018, 04:05 PM
Neubauten were signed to Some Bizzare and did a collab with Fad Gadget... who accompanied them with G-PO at their infamous ICA gig where they tried to piledrive a hole in the stage.


Ah, I'd forgotten about Collapsing New People, which is stupid because I will take any opportunity to play that tune at a party. Didn't know GPO was with them at the ICA gig, that is cool.

Wasn't there some sort of re-enactment of the ICA performance about a decade ago? Which strikes me as a bit pointless, I dunno.

luka
01-03-2018, 04:09 PM
I guess I'll be the one to fly the flag for The Ape of Naples

my mate jim loves coil and i saw him spunk about £50 on this at a record shop in cardiff. youre not alone.

john eden
01-03-2018, 04:11 PM
John - would you recommend Irene's Cunt? Yet to sample it.

Like many people, I have yet to experience Irene's Cunt but am expecting to soon.

luka
01-03-2018, 04:14 PM
i might be exagerrating. it was expensive enough that he felt guilty about it.

martin
01-03-2018, 04:15 PM
I consider all of them except Chris Carter loathsome people (he mostly escapes my judgement because he's too much of a nerd. You get the feeling if he hadn't fallen in with them he'd be like a Special Effects Guru for movies who people regarded as 'odd but decent'. Truly built to live in a basement.).

Funnily enough, I've heard from certain people 'in the know' that he's more than capable of matching GPO when it comes to temper tantrums and unethical behaviour.

CrowleyHead
01-03-2018, 04:24 PM
Funnily enough, I've heard from certain people 'in the know' that he's more than capable of matching GPO when it comes to temper tantrums and unethical behaviour.

That explains who ran the X-TG twitter account then.

Mr. Tea
01-03-2018, 05:12 PM
Funny, as he was always the most ostensibly 'normal' one of the group - certainly the most conventionally musical - and tends to look a bit like a teacher.

blissblogger
01-03-2018, 07:19 PM
always bit underwhelmed by Coil - w/o the heavy bolstering of all the ideas and references, as a purely sonic experience, does it really cut it?

this one though has a gorgeous shudder of sound as it's main melody-riff


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eo-X2VXSRHA

blissblogger
01-03-2018, 07:21 PM
this score they did for a Derek Jarman short also very nice


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2o2dahlxaZo

Mr. Tea
01-03-2018, 08:44 PM
This is one is cool (and has a *great* fan-made video):


https://youtu.be/az7NL1bpLEQ

I have a memory of mistersloane telling me he was a member of Coil for a day.

DannyL
01-03-2018, 10:07 PM
I really like the first two Coil albums - and the "How to destroy angels" 12". I think they were amazingly innovative for the time, they always make me think of Heaven - the club on Charing X Road, not the place in the sky. It seems like the iconic sleazy 80s space that they would've inhabited.

WebEschatology
01-03-2018, 10:09 PM
As far as Coil goes i like Ape of Naples, Music to play in the dark and their first 3 albums, Coil at their best always felt like being engulfed in quicksand for me


Nurse With Wound have always struck me as the group of that bunch that id like the most but i havent listen to much of although i did open for Sunn O))) once down Camden and i have to agree with Luka as far as vocals go cause i remember they had some weird Marc Almond lookin guy doing vocals and it kinda fucked with the vibe they were going for,that said Soliloquy for Lilith,A Sucked Lemon & Thunder Perfect Mind i all really like.

Never really messed with Current 93s earlier stuff but i am upfront in that in the wrong mindset their music can be the goofiest shit on Earth.

Im one of those weirdos who quite likes Foetus even that major label album he did that had "Mortgage" "Mighty Whitey" and that one song that sounded like a score out of a old Gladiator movie, i saw him do a gig once down the Cafe Oto some electro accoustic thing inspired by the hurricane that passed through New York wasnt bad and shook my mans Thirlwells hand afterwards seemed like a nice man.


is Englands Hidden Reverse really worth reading though? i ask because ive known about it and thought about reading it for ages but its always been slightly out of my reach for some reason.

also anybody here ever tried to listen to Legendary Pink Dots?

luka
01-03-2018, 10:12 PM
like i said at the start i like tunnel of goats
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzLbvcxTOVU

luka
01-03-2018, 10:14 PM
as i said on a different thread the book made me feel so grubby and contaminated i had to put it down but great if you want to know more about this lot and theyre personal histories.

luka
01-03-2018, 10:15 PM
keenan and simon reynolds have a personal rivalry and are always exchanging half-concealed barbs in print which i find very entertaining, having a taste for that sort of thing.

Mr. Tea
01-03-2018, 10:49 PM
On the Strange Attractor website the description of the book includes mention of "a house in Muswell Hill where David Tibet of Current 93 receives a vision of Noddy crucified in the sky", which just took me straight back to http://www.blrrrecords.com/

http://www.blrrrecords.com/index_files/cov_god.jpg http://www.blrrrecords.com/index_files/cov_meat.jpg http://www.blrrrecords.com/index_files/cov_wolf.jpg (etc.)

padraig (u.s.)
02-03-2018, 02:49 AM
great, my favorite kind of dissensus thread, people with deep knowledge holding forth on a subject!

thanks to martin, john, + others for the recs. industrial is one of those things where I know considerably more about it than I've actually listened to. impenetrably vast, spotty discographies are a big factor - who has time to sift through it all? also just never been interested into whole swathes of it - the shock rock power electronics side, neofolk etc, the whole Ministry/Skinny Puppy etc thing. I'm sure all those have at least a few hidden gems but I don't care enough to sift for them.

curious for expert thoughts on 2 things. first, anything beyond the usual TG/CV/NWW, Einsturzende, SPK, etc canon. the U.S. - Factrix, Monte Cazazza? lesser-known or slightly later British things - Zoviet France, Bourbonese Qualk, The New Blockaders, etc? anything from continental Europe besides Neubauten? Laibach? I would say Japanese noise too but seems like its whole own universe. again, just trying to cherrypick the best stuff.

2nd - any recs on the dancier side. intentionally dancy or not. I know obv stuff like Hot On the Heels + Nag Nag Nag, as well as Sensoria + the like. doesn't have to be strictly industrial - anything in Suicide Commando, Collapsing New People, Dead Eyes Opened, kinda territory. I have a decent grasp on EBM, and minimal synth (as much as a non-specialist can), more interested in any kinda leftfield dance records I guess.

padraig (u.s.)
02-03-2018, 02:57 AM
in general I get the vibe that a lotta the power of industrial was in the moment and it's mostly loss outside of that context

otoh there's definitely bleedover into the 70s avant-garde, most obv w/NWW but also Germany + France, like if you look around enough you start seeing connections/continuations from krautrock to NDW, or French avant/prog to coldwave and experimental synth things.

can see the huge appeal of something like the NWW list, or high-concept TG things, to a certain kind of young person in the pre-Internet age

john eden
02-03-2018, 11:28 AM
is Englands Hidden Reverse really worth reading though? i ask because ive known about it and thought about reading it for ages but its always been slightly out of my reach for some reason.

also anybody here ever tried to listen to Legendary Pink Dots?

I think it's a great book even if you don't like the music.

LPD are OK but I don't really understand why someone would listen to them over some other psychedelic rock band.

john eden
02-03-2018, 11:48 AM
curious for expert thoughts on 2 things. first, anything beyond the usual TG/CV/NWW, Einsturzende, SPK, etc canon. the U.S. - Factrix, Monte Cazazza? lesser-known or slightly later British things - Zoviet France, Bourbonese Qualk, The New Blockaders, etc? anything from continental Europe besides Neubauten? Laibach? I would say Japanese noise too but seems like its whole own universe. again, just trying to cherrypick the best stuff.


Monte Cazazza is an interesting figure but someone I always thought was more interesting interviews than on record. "To Mom On Mothers Day" is probably a classic early industrial single. People seem to rate his 2010 album "The Cynic" but I've not heard it.

I saw Zoviet France recently and they were amazing. Also like the radio show they do (on Mixcloud) which is called "A Duck In A Tree" - very good industrial ambient. Intend to explore more but they were another one whose records I'd pick up in a shop and then put back because I had no idea where to start.

Bourbonese Qualk, Clock DVA, The Box, Hula etc - All have good stuff but generally filed in my head as "like Cabaret Voltaire but not as good".

Laibach - early stuff is a bit like Test Dept. "Opus Dei" is probably the classic LP though, with the totalitarian cover versions of disco hits. They now seem to be in a weird hinterland where a large section of their fans uncritically like the irony of the totalitarian aesthetic which I have misgivings about. They are nowhere near as dodgy as Death In June but there is an overlap with people who like wearing leather trousers and insignia.

The New Blockaders - very influential "free noise" but I don't think you need much of it. That said their classic "Changez Les Blockeurs" is about the be re-released and there is going to be a whole remix album by Nurse With Wound of it which I am excited about. Will be forever cherished by me purely for this great quote "my Dad went all the way to Bristol to pay and see a man take a cabbage to pieces"

Never really checked out much US stuff like Factrix, Tuxedomoon, Chrome etc (if they even count).

Boyd Rice's two 80s albums as NON are superb but he is a dick so I am reluctant to recommend them.

martin
02-03-2018, 12:25 PM
I really like the two Monte Cazazza 7"s on Industrial Records ('To Mom On Mother's Day /Something for Nobody'). In some ways "Rabid Rats", "Candy Man" and "Mary Bell" epitomise that industrial ethos: media outrage, real life horror, etc, turned irreverently (and knowingly) into 'entertainment' - and riddled with black humour. He seems to have an interesting life, but yeah, never heard 'The Nihilist' either. I would recommend those two anyway, though probably via download as the vinyl's sadly entered collector prices hell. Speaking of Industrial Records, massive props to Slow Death by The Leather Nun - Motorhead meets TG with some pricelessly poor-taste lyrics.


Bourbonese Qualk, Clock DVA, The Box, Hula etc - All have good stuff but generally filed in my head as "like Cabaret Voltaire but not as good". - a spot-on assessment, although Clock DVA did have flashes of genius.

Boyd Rice's 'Mode of Infection' and 'Rise' EPs are well worth a listen. I like the concept of 'Pagan Muzak' too, even if I never want to listen to the damn thing! After that, it was all soundtracks for Saturday afternoon rallies in Charlottesville (though, must admit, 'People' makes me laugh - dock me 300 Antifa points).

In terms of dancey industrial, would recommend most stuff by Severed Heads - esp. Blubberknife, Since The Accident and City Slab Horror. If you like Chris & Cosey, you should dig SH, though they could easily turn on the noise/skree with the best of early SPK when they felt like it.

Do Die Form (France) count as dancey industrial? Straddling electro/industrial, with a focus on kinky sex and black magic that seems a bit juvenile in retrospect. Trying to be edgy with titles like "Sex By Force", etc. Though the bloke behind them did do this really eerie tape as Krylon Hertz in 1978, which is all over the blogs and which hits the spot for me.

Italy had this 'ritual industrial' scene, with scores of weirdos making music using Korgs and thigh bones, with endless references to Crowley and the 93rd Aeon, or whatever. John E will surely know more about this- to be honest, a lot of it sounded like the same person. This was a bit later though, when PTV were making acid records and sub-Happy Mondays indie, and Grey Wolves were being the 'new Whitehouse'.

Special shout out's due to Controlled Bleeding from the US - their 'Knees and Bones' album is tuneless, irritating noise, and pretty much the equivalent of a baby throwing shit around to infuriate its parents, but has a gleeful "look, I'm making a record!" charm to it that makes it quite loveable - from the cover art of a badly drawn scientist destroying his own face with rats, to the bit 10 mins in where his little sister gatecrashes the recording session to complain about the noise while she's trying to study. "I don't wanna go down the library!"

martin
02-03-2018, 12:48 PM
in general I get the vibe that a lotta the power of industrial was in the moment and it's mostly loss outside of that context

can see the huge appeal of something like the NWW list, or high-concept TG things, to a certain kind of young person in the pre-Internet age

I kind of agree. Seems almost ludicrous now that 'taboo' subjects like S&M, etc, were ever that shocking - especially post-tumblr.

Things in the UK were a lot more regimented then - much more illiberal, and with a much wider gulf between young and old people. I get the whole punk/industrial thing about delving into dark areas, to expose the filth behind the veneer of 'respectable society' - Denis Nilsen vs state-sanctioned slaughter in Northern Ireland and the Falklands, etc etc. I think people were just more shockable then, anyway. You can spend an hour on YouTube and find way more offensive stuff than TG ever covered.

Industrial just seemed to go that much further than punk. The Sex Pistols caused an outrage but were basically playing rock and roll - SPK and TG actually wanted to sound like factory floors. The anarcho-punks might have looked weird, used bad language and wanted the end of government, but at least their goals were somewhat utopian - not idolising some hippy banged up for allegedly inciting mass slayings. The problem I (personally) found is that you can end up staring into the abyss a bit too long - these people were dedicated to exposing THEE LIE but also creating numerous fictions themselves. Next thing you know, you're unwrapping a tape or LP with a totenkopf or AWB symbol and can't help wonder where it's all heading - the symbols started to become the point, as the music/originality invariable deteriorated.



Should also add that Facebook makes it very hard to maintain 'cult outsider mystique' - especially when you have members of Ramleh arguing over who can eat the hottest chilli, and suddenly get Philip Best's mum as a friend recommendation.

martin
02-03-2018, 12:53 PM
Then again, with drone tech, dole claimants setting themselves on fire, military policing, fake news, etc etc etc, industrial's tendencies to narky paranoia and fascination with urban apocalypse make it a fitting soundtrack for now too.

luka
02-03-2018, 12:56 PM
was just saying today (in relation to nick land and to conspiracy-freaks turning nazi but it doesnt matter)
there are certain ideas, beliefs, desires
that operate as a kind of black hole. people get
too close and are sucked in.
495

luka
02-03-2018, 12:57 PM
and part of it is a kind of machismo and look how close i can get to the edge without falling in
then you fall in.

john eden
02-03-2018, 01:11 PM
and part of it is a kind of machismo and look how close i can get to the edge without falling in
then you fall in.

Yes there is definitely that aspect to it. I think a lot of this also ties in with the public school education of the originators - initiation rituals, one upmanship, veneration of obscure books and artists, a very intellectual take on the Power Ov Sexuality which is a bit creepy, etc.

Also this focus on extremity is very limiting. If you walked around the extreme edges of a country you would find out something about it I'm sure but if you said you had uncovered "deep truths" because of it people would look at you a bit funny. Same as having a shelf full of books about serial killers and sex magick.

padraig (u.s.)
02-03-2018, 05:33 PM
thanks again to Martin + John for the thorough answers


US stuff like Factrix, Tuxedomoon, Chrome etc (if they even count)
Chrome is p cool, like a more (acid) rocked out, American Neu!, filtered through West Coast garage rock/psychedelia instead of Stockhausen, experimental LSD punk basically, v much my kinda thing. they exist in a weird liminal prepostpunk territory with things like Simply Saucer, the Cleveland bands, and so on. Half Machine Lip Moves is probably their best record but everything ca. 1977-82 is worth checking. interestingly Damon Edge was hugely influenced by Arabic/North African (shades of Reich, Riley etc) music he heard on a trip to Morocco in the mid-70s. Tuxedomoon is more avant/RIO kinda thing, i.e. they spent most of the 80s on Crammed Discs. Their discography I'm not as up on. No Tears is obv a canonical jam but they don't mostly sound like that I think.

most early U.S. punk scenes were v arty, queer-influenced, those kinds of sensibilities, blurred lines between punk and experimental things, i.e. Suicide, The Screamers, early Pere Ubu. the SF scene in particular tho was all jumbled up. the punk bands were noisy and weird (Negative Trend, Flipper), the weirdos were punk (Chrome, Nervous Gender), and so on. hardcore unfortunately eradicated nearly all the queer/arty influences in punk - they did eventually filter back in, but it took awhile - by like 1981 or so, tho SF managed to avoid that a bit unlike say, LA or NY.

weirdo punk not punk I know v well, less up on the noisier, power tools, factory floor etc industrial side.

(I thought about putting a "besides Boyd Rice, cos fuck him" disclaimer, but figured everyone already knows)


Next thing you know, you're unwrapping a tape or LP with a totenkopf or AWB symbol and can't help wonder where it's all heading
this has always been a big factor in my not delving into industrial etc

also the only person I've ever heard talk about magick + not have it sound just hugely embarrassing is Alan Moore (and even then it was kind of embarrassing)

black metal has the same problem with demystification in the social media age

padraig (u.s.)
02-03-2018, 05:49 PM
Italy had this 'ritual industrial' scene
yes I am somewhat aware of this. just a few bits + pieces. this is one of my favorite ambient things of all time by anyone. if anyone knows more like it, by all means.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hkrtS4vFpk
one of the guys involved was in Pankow, the Italian Front 242. Another was in I Refuse It!, who were at the weirder end of the (super awesome) 80s Italian hardcore scene.

as ever I bet if you clicked around enough on YT/discogs you'd start finding more similar connections.

fun fact: the guitar player of legendary, and great, Italian Oi band Nabat later went on to be one of the authors in Luther Blissett aka Wu Ming.

padraig (u.s.)
02-03-2018, 05:56 PM
also agree w/Martin about anarcho-punk, v strait-laced musically. punks in general are (speaking from lengthy) personally repressed + conservative, even w/radical politics.

and ofc when Crass did more experimental stuff people hated it, tho tbf it sucked. there are some pretty terrible Crass Records things (D+V, ffs).

Rudimentary Peni's a bit of an exception, cos of Nick Blinko I'd imagine, tho still really just a weirder version of rock + roll.

luka
02-03-2018, 10:40 PM
https://www.instagram.com/p/BW3_d9qAuaY/?taken-by=cursed_images

Mr. Tea
03-03-2018, 12:28 PM
Did Liaisons Dangereuses ever do anything else half as awesome as this?


https://youtu.be/S3tR__Kbqmg

Edit: not a rhetorical question, I'd love to know if so. Or anything from the same era with the same sort of sound.

Mr. Tea
03-03-2018, 01:26 PM
But speaking of 'camp', I guess it's inevitable that Laibach would come up here. I saw them in London a couple of years ago without much knowledge of their catalogue beyond some of their campy covers and I have to say it was a lot of fun. On the coach back to Oxford there was this guy maybe a decade younger than me, perhaps a postgrad student, who was on the phone to his mate or girlfriend and was, like, horrified! by the spinning axe-swastika thing (a work from 1934 by the anti-Nazi artist John Heartfield) and that he'd never seen anything so awful. After he'd hung up I tapped him on the shoulder and tried to explain that these guys are completely tongue-in-cheek and have been taking the piss out of both fascism and communism from day 1, but I don't think he was having any of it so I dropped it. At any rate he was in the same boat as the supposedly perspicacious John Oliver, whose take on their famous statement that "Laibach are fascists as much as Hitler was a painter" was "So they are fascists, they're just really bad at it".

I guess the flipside of that is the people John mentions who don't get the subversion either but actually just love the jackboots-and-armbands aspect of it.

I'm still not sure what to make of their recent 'Sound Of Music' tour in North Korea (which I'm sure is largely the point). Act of complicity with an abhorrent regime on a par with playing apartheid-era South Africa, or ingenious piece of postmodern culture-jamming that must've made Bill Drummond mad with envy? Who knows?

padraig (u.s.)
03-03-2018, 07:51 PM
anything from the same era with the same sort of sound
I personally could do without the sub-no wave skronk sax, but this is still p danged tite. El Macho y La Nena is another good one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7bdJ8IyZeE

the obvious answer for similar sound is DAF - Der Mussolini, Verschwende Deine Jugend, Ein Bisschen Krieg, etc

and to varying extents all the (mostly Belgian) early/proto-EBM types - Absolute Body Control, early Front 242, Neon Judgment, etc

padraig (u.s.)
03-03-2018, 07:52 PM
another, lesser-known German EBM pioneer is Tommi Stumpf

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyw9yT2mZ9s

padraig (u.s.)
03-03-2018, 07:52 PM
this is another Stumpf production, kinda the EBM version of a disco diva studio project

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdxMHopkMH0

padraig (u.s.)
03-03-2018, 07:58 PM
EBM is v interesting. much harder to pin down because outside of a small core, DAF + the Belgians basically, there's not really a canon like in industrial, and "EBM" bleeds into, depending on what part of the 80s you're in, so many different things, so you're retroactively assembling it out of other things, kinda like cosmic/balearic. when done well it is SUCH a great sound but it also such a short distance to abomination - terrible 90s industrial rock, grown men dressing like cybergoths, etc. there's a healthy amount of EBM in the DNA of Rammstein + (via Ministry etc) Marilyn Manson. my personal EBM canon would include some things that are more properly minimal wave, industrial or whatever and would exclude a lotta things - Skinny Puppy, Front Line Assembly, Ministry + Wax Trax in general.

not surprised EBM influence is a big trend in hip techno (L.I.E.S. etc) rn. strip out the embarrassing grown man angst and kick out the dark, pulsing, sexy jams.

btw the tl;dr answer is that nothing gets near Los Niños Del Parque. like Eisbaer, Camino Del Sol, etc it exists on a pedestal outside of normal space-time.

padraig (u.s.)
03-03-2018, 08:01 PM
for example, here is a mindblowing French electroacoustic record from 1973 that sounds like DAF crossed with mid 90s hard minimal techno

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNcTePruv3Y&t=0s

thirdform
03-03-2018, 08:15 PM
yeh that Igor Wakhevitch record is killer, sounds like something cristian vogel would put out. madly ahead of its time.

i really want to get into muslimgauze (in theory it should appeal to me, industrial w middle east percussion) but in practice it all falls flat. doesn't help that he was a crude orientalising oh let's be an edgelord and flirt with political islamism, as well as having a kneejerk unprincipled absolutely anti-anything is good anti-israel stance. bleeding into antisemitism. *sigh* white people sometimes.

I guess I'm sensitive towards this shitt what with being a turkish kurd and liberals supporting the power grab of the political islamists in the 00s, and remaining quiet when the left was decimated two decades before. so i really don't find it transgressive in any shape or form.

But thats for another time i suppose.

Mr. Tea
03-03-2018, 08:50 PM
Yeah MG is certainly, uh, divisive. You may find this thread interesting: http://www.dissensus.com/showthread.php?t=13294&highlight=muslimgauze

And this: http://www.dissensus.com/showthread.php?t=12924&highlight=Muslim gauze (at least until it degenerates into a slightly tiresome argument about authenticity and the meaning of 'good' vs 'bad' taste.)

WebEschatology
03-03-2018, 09:27 PM
i really want to get into muslimgauze (in theory it should appeal to me, industrial w middle east percussion) but in practice it all falls flat. doesn't help that he was a crude orientalising oh let's be an edgelord and flirt with political islamism, as well as having a kneejerk unprincipled absolutely anti-anything is good anti-israel stance. bleeding into antisemitism. *sigh* white people sometimes.

I guess I'm sensitive towards this shitt what with being a turkish kurd and liberals supporting the power grab of the political islamists in the 00s, and remaining quiet when the left was decimated two decades before. so i really don't find it transgressive in any shape or form.

But thats for another time i suppose.[/QUOTE]


This doesnt surprise me considering i often do wonder how people from other cultures feel about this attempt at trying to be transgressive by white brehs like Muslimgauze and Dominic Fernow who thinks flirting with political islamism,naming songs after military operations and expecting people to read their rambling essays about their interest in this kinda thing makes them "dangerous"

thirdform
03-03-2018, 09:46 PM
i appreciate the idea of puncturing western sensibilities about the monolithic portrayal of islam and muslims but mg doesn't do that at all. so i guess there could be some avenue for further investigating there.

I have the feeling that he would be pro-assad on dodgy eurasian nationalist grounds were he alive today. Then again i could see him sympathising with the islamist rebels like HTS and jabhat (not to be confused with the syrian civilian resistance...)

he would probably see the demonstrators in maraat misreen as scum.

trash tbh.

thirdform
03-03-2018, 09:50 PM
ppl say he sounds like shackleton 20 years before but i don't here it. so monotonous.

With shackleton's percussion you can here that he's engaged with the rhythmic ideas of middle eastern music and tried to orientate them to his lancashire perspective. he knows how to make the rhythms dynamic. mg doesn't.

Barty give us a drum analysis plz.