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sadmanbarty
06-03-2018, 12:05 PM
When did it die?

What killed it?

Who's responsible?

How did this happen?

(It'd also be nice if someone says that it's in fact not dead and then posts a few nondescript tracks that they wrongly feel signify it's continued health and vibrancy)

sadmanbarty
06-03-2018, 12:13 PM
We had a great couple of weeks on dissensus, but it's slowing down again. Let's pick the momentum up.

uk's declining jamaican population relative to african, the internet usurping traditional nuum infrastructure, the great recession, austerity, gentrification, the lack of new stimuli from jamaica and rap and other dance music, dizee's success, student nights, form 969.

remember dissensus only works when you staunchly defend the indefensible

sadmanbarty
06-03-2018, 12:17 PM
droid doesn't actually think dubstep was ever really part of the continuum. crowley doesn't really think that future swag was innovative. but they pretended to for the good of the forum. pluck up the courage people.

CORP$EY
06-03-2018, 12:48 PM
hardcore continuum = british (usually londoners) take foreign (often american) genres and twist them, either in order to give it a british stamp or just because they're british and so have different influences than the foreigners

atm it seems the dominant influences on the communities that have usually produced nuum genres are 1) american rap music 2) african dance music

perhaps road rap and 'afrotrap' (or whatever it's called) wouldn't fit the bill as nuum genres because they haven't sufficiently deviated from their source influence yet... deep tech was definitely heading in that direction with certain tunes, house tunes that (in a sense) only a UK producer with a natural immersion in garage/jungle etc. could make

also they haven't got the old apparatus of nuum genres e.g. pirate radio, dubplates, conspicuous MDMA consumption...

Slothrop
06-03-2018, 01:20 PM
The particular dynamism of the hardcore continuum came from the unstable squashing together of the different people / attitudes / traditions that got pulled into hardcore. Its history since then has basically been separation and stratification and gradual dispersal of potential energy - everyone pulling out the elements of hardcore / jungle that they liked and settling into smaller and more stable scenes, which might still be good, but lack the original constant what-the-fuck inventiveness.

sadmanbarty
06-03-2018, 01:39 PM
The particular dynamism of the hardcore continuum came from the unstable squashing together of the different people / attitudes / traditions that got pulled into hardcore. Its history since then has basically been separation and stratification and gradual dispersal of potential energy - everyone pulling out the elements of hardcore / jungle that they liked and settling into smaller and more stable scenes, which might still be good, but lack the original constant what-the-fuck inventiveness.

the coalition held til about 1994. then:

the blade runner/ nick land contingent- metalheadz, pre-wub dubstep, post-dubstep

mcing- ragga jungle, jump up? (riko, wiley etc.), garage rap, grime

soul/ populist/ pop- garage, bassline, funky, same punters for deep tech though musically it's actually more on the blade runner side of life

Benny B
06-03-2018, 02:48 PM
Ended in 2011 for me, live fm sets in 2010 being the last sets that had the true pirate vibe.

Example:

https://www.mixcloud.com/Classic_UK_Funky_Sets/dj-petchy-mcs-hot-s-shantie-topsee-dream-live-fm-march-20-2010/

:fire::fire::fire:

(I'm currently in the middle of uploading a ton of funky sets to this mixcloud btw so I can listen them on my mobile)

Will continue to rep for jacking and deep tech (for a short while at least) but things had changed too much by then.

luka
06-03-2018, 03:10 PM
The particular dynamism of the hardcore continuum came from the unstable squashing together of the different people / attitudes / traditions that got pulled into hardcore. Its history since then has basically been separation and stratification and gradual dispersal of potential energy - everyone pulling out the elements of hardcore / jungle that they liked and settling into smaller and more stable scenes, which might still be good, but lack the original constant what-the-fuck inventiveness.

yeah they are unstable and temporary coalitions pulled into being. not just in terms of race and class but just as importantly in terms of sensibility. i think we (me&slothrop) touched on this quite recently.

luka
06-03-2018, 03:12 PM
although im equally drawn to this notion of it being the history of a dialogue between west indian immigrants and cockneys, or a history of west indian immigration and intergration. it's a partial and exclusionary frame but it's an important one.

luka
06-03-2018, 03:13 PM
and although 'e' has an important role as catalyst it's important to remember its already marginalised by '93/'94 and jungle is not mdma music per se.

luka
06-03-2018, 03:15 PM
it's impossible to overstate the irresistible gravitational pull black culture, and more specifically, Jamaican culture had on everyone else here.

Slothrop
06-03-2018, 03:19 PM
the coalition held til about 1994. then:


Dunno exactly. Happy hardcore splits off from hardcore / jungle earlier, dubstep splits off from garage later. Bassline keeps a specific set of elements going for a specific audience, as does later drum and bass. The musical influence probably stays tangled for longer than the actual people, too. The East London strand that we identify as "the nuum" probably stays interesting for longer than most, but it's basically getting progressively closer to what you suspect East London would have sounded like anyway.

luka
06-03-2018, 03:19 PM
it's a love affair.

luka
06-03-2018, 03:22 PM
we're all obsessed with black music here. here's one example. the equivalent of heart and magic in the rest of the anglosphere play rock not chaka khan aint nobody and womack and womack teardrops

luka
06-03-2018, 03:23 PM
they play steve miller, they play boston, they play things you lot probably dont even know exist

Leo
06-03-2018, 03:32 PM
yet we spend a not-insignificant amount of time discussing drone and ambient.

john eden
06-03-2018, 03:33 PM
It all started to get a bit shaky when people decided Grime and Dubstep were over and UK Funky was the latest incarnation.

So, 2007/8: http://www.uncarved.org/blog/2008/01/rave-futures/

To be fair after that point a lot of the people who used to write about this stuff became emphatically too old to be going out raving too.

CORP$EY
06-03-2018, 03:36 PM
yet we spend a not-insignificant amount of time discussing drone and ambient.

i think he means Londoners in general

luka
06-03-2018, 03:37 PM
oh sorry yeah we being londoners but also probably the whole south-east of the country.

luka
06-03-2018, 03:42 PM
or if you think of soul-weekeneders

CORP$EY
06-03-2018, 03:44 PM
Northern Soul?

luka
06-03-2018, 03:45 PM
id prefer not to talk about the north. it's a differernt country. we have nothing in common whatsoever.

luka
06-03-2018, 03:46 PM
ive never been there and i never want to go there. they listen to steve lamaq all the time.

Leo
06-03-2018, 03:49 PM
oh sorry yeah we being londoners but also probably the whole south-east of the country.

ah, ok...thought "we" was dissensus discussion.

as an old foreigner, i've got nothing to contribute here really except to say that in general when talking about musical and cultural trends, people often think things start to suck/end as they get older (it was better back in the day!) but at the same time there's usually a young generation coming up who feel they've created their own thing and are glad that the older folks either dismiss it or sometimes don't even know of it exists.

CORP$EY
06-03-2018, 03:50 PM
cities like Liverpool Manchester Birmingham Bristol all have west indian communities

so it's interesting that London is hardcore continuum central - is this just because London is by its very nature a gravitational point for creativity? that it has a higher population? or that any narrative of british culture is probably going to focus on London, not least because a lot of journos live in London?

sadmanbarty
06-03-2018, 03:54 PM
it's important to remember that anywhere north of enfield is wales. real england is london and essex

Corpsey
06-03-2018, 03:55 PM
LoL

CORP$EY
06-03-2018, 03:57 PM
The ironic thing about London is its this huge cosmopolitan magnet for immigration and yet its inhabitants tend to be basically provincially minded

I can see why btw - since moving here only a few years ago I've basically forgotten the rest of the country exists

CORP$EY
06-03-2018, 03:59 PM
cities like Liverpool Manchester Birmingham Bristol all have west indian communities

so it's interesting that London is hardcore continuum central - is this just because London is by its very nature a gravitational point for creativity? that it has a higher population? or that any narrative of british culture is probably going to focus on London, not least because a lot of journos live in London?

the other thing to remember of course is that the media is in London so stuff that happens elsewhere tends to be off-radar

perhaps that's one of the reasons the nuum has died - in the internet era nothing in London can possibly happen without being corrupted by attention

'In physics, the observer effect is the theory that simply observing a situation or phenomenon necessarily changes that phenomenon.'

edit:

probably covered extensively in the 'if new york can die so can london' thread - but with the increasing marginalisation of working class and even middle class people in the capital, will the more exciting cultural innovations be happening in other cities in the future?

john eden
06-03-2018, 04:06 PM
These days it's much more interesting to find out about pirate radio in Hull, or reggae soundsystems in Huddersfield than London stuff.

Hackney Museum are planning an exhibition about black music in the borough and I am helping them with some bits.

I love London and don't want to live anywhere else, even now, but it's pretty dumb to ignore the contributions made to the culture by places like Bristol, Birmingham and Sheffield especially.

luka
06-03-2018, 04:11 PM
These days it's much more interesting to find out about pirate radio in Hull, or reggae soundsystems in Huddersfield than London stuff.

Hackney Museum are planning an exhibition about black music in the borough and I am helping them with some bits.

I love London and don't want to live anywhere else, even now, but it's pretty dumb to ignore the contributions made to the culture by places like Bristol, Birmingham and Sheffield especially.

they made some good records (some early roni size stuff for instance) but they contributed absolutely nothing beyond that and it would be patronising tokenism to suggest otherwise imo

luka
06-03-2018, 04:14 PM
whereas LA, Memphis, Atlanta, Houston, etc all made distinctive regional variations and mutations of rap music. you cant claim provinical centres in the UK did the same with hardcore continuum. if they didnt exist nothing would be different at all

sadmanbarty
06-03-2018, 04:15 PM
bassline= welsh garage

john eden
06-03-2018, 04:16 PM
they made some good records (some early roni size stuff for instance) but they contributed absolutely nothing beyond that and it would be patronising tokenism to suggest otherwise imo

Birmingham was number 2 city in the UK for reggae soundsystems in the 70s and 80s.

Also I don't think you can ignore the role of places like Milton Keynes in 'ardkore.

Sheffield's Bleep and Bass stuff has to count for something too.

luka
06-03-2018, 04:16 PM
donk=welsh jungle

luka
06-03-2018, 04:18 PM
Birmingham was number 2 city in the UK for reggae soundsystems in the 70s and 80s.

Also I don't think you can ignore the role of places like Milton Keynes in 'ardkore.

what im saying is those provinical centres dont change the direction. they're tributaries.

sadmanbarty
06-03-2018, 04:19 PM
ignore Milton Keynes

i always do

sadmanbarty
06-03-2018, 04:21 PM
benny b=welsh

Corpsey
06-03-2018, 04:42 PM
I guess fundamentally the UK is a small place. The big cities in the US are so far apart geographically that it isn't a surprise that their music is different. Even the farthest apart cities in the UK are about as removed from each other as two cities in the same American state might be.

sadmanbarty
06-03-2018, 04:49 PM
i think an under discussed reason for the decline is that the external musical stimuli feeding the hardcore continuum were in decline. i'd argue rap was in a bad way between 2004-2014, dancehall after 2010 or so, us and european dance music probably since the late 90's.

you could point to 2step emerging from the innovations of todd edwards and timbaland. or garage rap and grime owing something to ward 21-style dancehall and the popularisation of southern rap. but by 2010 these sources of inspiration weren't particularly fruitful.

Corpsey
06-03-2018, 04:51 PM
Yeah London is just a tributary of the US really

(That oughta piss Luka off teehee)

luka
06-03-2018, 04:53 PM
Yeah London is just a tributary of the US really

(That oughta piss Luka off teehee)

getting close to woebots epic trolling about jungle being just another kind of detroit techno and owing nothing to reggae

luka
06-03-2018, 04:54 PM
there was ths perpetually grumpy lad on here called mms once who always used to want to talk about belgium.
obsessed with belgium and how it invented hardcoer.

CORP$EY
06-03-2018, 04:54 PM
sad and weary I go back to you, my cold father, my cold mad
father, my cold mad feary father, till the near sight of the mere
size of him, the moyles and moyles of it, moananoaning, makes me
seasilt saltsick and I rush, my only, into your arms. I see them
rising! Save me from those therrble prongs! Two more. Onetwo
moremens more. So. Avelaval. My leaves have drifted from me.
All. But one clings still. I'll bear it on me. To remind me of. Lff!
So soft this morning, ours. Yes. Carry me along, taddy, like you
done through the toy fair! If I seen him bearing down on me now
under whitespread wings like he'd come from Arkangels, I sink
I'd die down over his feet, humbly dumbly, only to washup. Yes,
tid. There's where. First. We pass through grass behush the bush
to. Whish! A gull. Gulls. Far calls. Coming, far! End here. Us
then. Finn, again! Take. Bussoftlhee, mememormee! Till thous-
endsthee. Lps. The keys to. Given! A way a lone a last a loved a
long the

CORP$EY
06-03-2018, 04:57 PM
i do find the link between places and the art produced 'by' them quite fascinating

e.g. what was it about Ireland in the late 19th/early 20th century that produced joyce, yeats and beckett...

Sometimes it's just about where the money is, and the power (e.g. Rome/Florence in Renaissance Italy). Or the political/social conditions.

'Scenius'

CORP$EY
06-03-2018, 05:02 PM
why is the sky blue?

why is water wet?

CORP$EY
06-03-2018, 05:04 PM
K punk wrote

Jungleís heartland was London and the Midlands (Coventry, of all places, was a particularly significant node), and in many ways the music developed out of the disintegration of the rave dream.

http://www.factmag.com/2011/02/12/20-best-jungle/

luka
06-03-2018, 05:05 PM
why are paintings of the northern Renaissance different to those of Italy? (other than the people in the pictures being uglier and having doughy skin)

CORP$EY
06-03-2018, 05:06 PM
'By contrast with raveís Ecstasy-fuelled rural arcadia, jungleís feral geography seemed as if it was derived from dystopian science fiction. Films were a massive presence, both as the source of samples and as something that coloured the mood and theme of tracks. The Alien films, with their paranoid spaces and techno-fetishism, the crashed ecosphere and artificial humans of Blade Runner, the cyborg stalker and timebending of the Terminator films, and Predator 2, with its dreadlocked monster and voodoo posse, were frequently referenced. But by fusing elements of science fiction and horror, jungle constructed its own Afro-futurist and cyber-gothic sonic fiction, set in the derelict arcades of a near future populated by millenarian rastas, cyberspace cowboys, voodoo loa and malign shape-shifting entities.

CORP$EY
06-03-2018, 05:07 PM
why are paintings of the northern Renaissance different to those of Italy? (other than the people in the pictures being uglier and having doughy skin)

Yes, that's an interesting topic too

I believe I've read that it's something to do with Protestantism vs. Catholicism

Albrecht Durer was one of the first artists in Northern Europe to study classical form which you can see in his Adam and Eve etching for example... but as Kenneth Clarke argued in a book wot I read by him, even in this you can see that it wasn't Durer's natural subject - it has an awkwardness about it, like when Mancunians do grime :crylarf:

Also it's just a mixture of influences isn't it - the Gothic thing was big in the Northern scene and nonexistent in Italy

luka
06-03-2018, 05:08 PM
K punk wrote

Jungleís heartland was London and the Midlands (Coventry, of all places, was a particularly significant node), and in many ways the music developed out of the disintegration of the rave dream.

http://www.factmag.com/2011/02/12/20-best-jungle/

one for barty that

By contrast with raveís Ecstasy-fuelled rural arcadia, jungleís feral geography seemed as if it was derived from dystopian science fiction. Films were a massive presence, both as the source of samples and as something that coloured the mood and theme of tracks. The Alien films, with their paranoid spaces and techno-fetishism, the crashed ecosphere and artificial humans of Blade Runner, the cyborg stalker and timebending of the Terminator films, and Predator 2, with its dreadlocked monster and voodoo posse, were frequently referenced. But by fusing elements of science fiction and horror, jungle constructed its own Afro-futurist and cyber-gothic sonic fiction, set in the derelict arcades of a near future populated by millenarian rastas, cyberspace cowboys, voodoo loa and malign shape-shifting entities.

The jungle was a fictional space as much as a genre, a brutal Ď90s update of William Gibsonís cyberspace.

luka
06-03-2018, 05:09 PM
snap

CORP$EY
06-03-2018, 05:10 PM
I'm fascinated by the idea that your tastes are conditioned by where you come from, perhaps in part because I don't really come from anywhere

I'm from nowheresville in the home counties

Nothing to be proud of, nothing I feel intrinsically connected to

luka
06-03-2018, 05:13 PM
I'm fascinated by the idea that your tastes are conditioned by where you come from, perhaps in part because I don't really come from anywhere

I'm from nowheresville in the home counties

Nothing to be proud of, nothing I feel intrinsically connected to

that film robinson in space is partly about restablishing hereness to the kind of england that barely seems to exist.
places that seem so colourless they disappear.

luka
06-03-2018, 05:14 PM
craner talks about wales all the time but droid never talks about dublin. why?

CORP$EY
06-03-2018, 05:16 PM
idea for book: author goes on a journey of discovery by tracking down and interviewing the people he's traded words with for years on an obscure internet forum with dwindling membership

CORP$EY
06-03-2018, 05:17 PM
city pride is like football team pride to me, although it makes a bit more sense

but in both cases i'm at a remove from it, a one-man band, ruefully plucking myself

luka
06-03-2018, 05:20 PM
idea for book: author goes on a journey of discovery by tracking down and interviewing the people he's traded words with for years on an obscure internet forum with dwindling membership

author (corpsey) starts with a male encounter group in south-east london, meeting 'sadmanbarty' and 'luka' in greenwich wetherspoons on a friday afternoon where they drink pints of shipyard and discussion slows to a standstill and they break eye contact and slip into their own silent, wistful reveries.

CORP$EY
06-03-2018, 05:22 PM
tracking down the jungle producers origins

Dillinja : Clapham, South London
4Hero: Dollis Hill, North London
A Guy Called Gerald: Moss Side, Manchester
Alex Reece: Ealing, West London
Andy C: born Hornchurch, suburb of East London

BORED NOW

sadmanbarty
06-03-2018, 05:22 PM
spooning in wetherspoons

))))))):love:(((((((

luka
06-03-2018, 05:23 PM
hornchurch is essex

sadmanbarty
06-03-2018, 05:25 PM
one for barty that

my whole life is me discovering all the brilliant shit i've come up with has already been done by cleaver blokes 20 years ago.

sadmanbarty
06-03-2018, 05:27 PM
craner talks about wales all the time but droid never talks about dublin. why?

cause he's secretly from basildon

sadmanbarty
06-03-2018, 05:27 PM
pretends to be irish to give him a veneer of charm

version
06-03-2018, 05:35 PM
idea for book: author goes on a journey of discovery by tracking down and interviewing the people he's traded words with for years on an obscure internet forum with dwindling membership

Julian Cope's next book.

luka
06-03-2018, 05:48 PM
Julian Cope's next book.

do you remember corpsey from dubstepforum? he was one of the leading figures on that forum.

version
06-03-2018, 05:54 PM
do you remember corpsey from dubstepforum? he was one of the leading figures on that forum.

Yup.

luka
06-03-2018, 07:02 PM
VERSION WHY DID YOU DELETE YOUR ANSWER? IT WAS THE RIGHT ANSWER! ive just spent 5 minutes thinking i was going mad with 'mandela effect'

luka
06-03-2018, 07:36 PM
I believe I've read that it's something to do with Protestantism vs. Catholicism

i think its the other way round and protestantism and catholicism are a product of the same divergernce that also manifests in the different styles of the northern and italian rennassainces

luka
06-03-2018, 07:44 PM
if im honest i think it becomes an increasingly sketchy concept after 1999.

luka
06-03-2018, 07:45 PM
partly becasue of generational and demographic changes. partly, dunno, other stuff.

Corpsey
06-03-2018, 08:24 PM
All the clubs closing

Recession/austerity

Smartphones (black holes for attention and creativity)

Decline of record shops due to internet

Recent (so I've read) decline of drug and alcohol use among young people

Smoking ban

sadmanbarty
06-03-2018, 08:45 PM
in africa you don't have the wedding of 'urban' and dance music like you have in jamaica. where dancehall serves as both, you get naija/azonto for dancing and nigerian/ghanian rap. so as london's become more demographically african it's lost this jamaican tradition of wedding the two; hence drill and to a lesser extent grime not being dance music.

version
06-03-2018, 08:46 PM
VERSION WHY DID YOU DELETE YOUR ANSWER? IT WAS THE RIGHT ANSWER! ive just spent 5 minutes thinking i was going mad with 'mandela effect'

I get bored and delete stuff all the time. I'll type it out again just for you.

When did it die?

2011

What killed it?

The internet

How did this happen?

The 'scene' migrated online and gradually splintered due to no longer being bound by or requiring specific geographical points of reference or real world interaction. The physical locations that acted as hubs - Blue Note, FWD, DMZ etc - were replaced by sites like Dubstepforum and Dubplate.net which only really lasted for a few years before everything became so sprawling and unfocused that the centre just sort of collapsed and everyone floated off in different directions, engaging with outside influences. These days people are either making house and techno or they're just rehashing jungle, garage, grime and dubstep.

blissblogger
06-03-2018, 08:49 PM
i think "inquest" would be a more appropriate word for the thread title than "autopsy"

a phenomenon that is multi-determined in its genesis will have multiple causal strands involved in its de-genesis - and all that have been mentioned so far contributed to its fading away

but if there was a single pulse that you could track as the life-line, the vital sign, i'd argue that it's the vibrancy and the essential role of the pirates

there is something about real-time terrestrial broadcast to a geographically restricted audience that creates community and a sense of synchronisation - everyone within the same forward-surging temporality

as soon as it became about the internet and netradio, you are leaving behind analogue culture - you are into geographically scattered audiences whose identity is primarily through identification with genre (whereas with jungle, UKG, grime et al - the identity came from the genre-identification but also a host of social and racial factors).

you are also into desynchronisation - the ability to listen to shows when you feel like, when it's convenient, as podcasts or archived shows

this is just my experience, but living in NYC and then in LA i could never bring myself to listen to netradio of nuum-type music - it just felt wrong - i was listening too far away from the source, and at the wrong time of day

i think hardcore continuum is fundamentally an analogue-era culture - you can see that with the way it stuck with vinyl and with the dubplate long after other kinds of music had abandoned those for digital modes (there were still really shitty-sounding bassline 12 inches you could buy in 2008 - a phenomenon of persistence completely different from the vinyl revival going on elsewhere, which was the musical equivalent of artisanal cheese - almost literally, given that you could buy 40 dollar vinyl albums in Whole Foods here)

also feel like the broadcast nature of pirates contributed to a certain (delusional?) grandiosity - the DJs and MCs could actually say and feel, "this one goes out to the London massive" or whatever - the music is addressed to a whole city and its population (in potential, at least) - a lot more people were aware of the pirates than actually liked them (indeed they found them a nuisance)

in that sense it was a public culture

internet is narrowcast

CrowleyHead
06-03-2018, 08:58 PM
Also Continental (as in European, not UK) dance music essentially lobotomized both the US and UK scenes.

Trance won. We're all dead and in the balearic heaven.

craner
06-03-2018, 09:21 PM
Cardiff Bay has a community radio station that pumps out soul, R&B, reggae, ragga, house, hip hop etc; Birmingham has the same in multiple. Both have the appetite for that music, neither produced any series Nuum music to compare to London, or even Bristol, Sheffield or Leicester.

I agree with Luke though, London had the population mix, infrastructure, and crucial atmosphere to be the centre, the energy. The information centre

https://youtu.be/DLMz3PiL_98

and it was something unique and special.

version
06-03-2018, 09:22 PM
I don't listen to radio at all these days, but something I started to notice when I did was that there didn't seem to be as many "big" tunes or anthems. At one point you'd have specific tunes everyone was battering that people would pass around rips of, upload to Youtube and discuss. That doesn't seem to happen anymore and the last time it did - from what I can tell - was around 2010/2011 when stuff like Girl Unit's 'Wut' and Sicko Cell were doing the rounds on Rinse.

craner
06-03-2018, 09:44 PM
Also the geographical and media limitations were crucial for the mystery, flavor, sound, atmosphere, etc, so agree with Simon too.

Having said that: hardcore was around the country: via raves, illicit tape recordings of raves, Dreamscape etc tape packs (which persisted into the 2-step era), so the styles and energies were more media-fixed and influenced than UK geography. The Internet was the real killer.

sadmanbarty
06-03-2018, 09:57 PM
the incentive structures are all wrong too. the only way for a lot of nuum acts to make money is to cater to students (a good 10 years after the music they're making's innovative), which isn't really a breeding ground for the kind of innovations the hardcore continuum's supposed to produce.

blissblogger
06-03-2018, 10:00 PM
one of the ironies of the internet is that it is possible to immerse yourself in the past of pirate radio in a much more total, take-it-all-in way that you could at the time

i mean, unless you had more than one radio set (and i'm really not sure why it never occurred to me to do that - buy multiple cheap radio-recorders) you could only listen to one station at a time - and you were also limited to what you could pick up in your corner of London

now there's this overload of archived sets from all across the city (and elsewhere in the UK), almost to the point you could live "there/then" permanently as a listener and rarely listen to the same set twice.

incidentally in the brand new issue of the Wire, Michaelangelo Matos has done a Primer to UK Pirate Radio DJ Sets, starting around 1988 and going through to the end of the 2000s. He's done a good job framing the evolution and found a lot of gems, drawing on his formidable resources of obsessive-compulsiveness and sifting through what seems to have been an insane number of contenders

sadmanbarty
06-03-2018, 10:08 PM
corpse's touched on the fact that there isn't entirely vacuum left where the hardcore continuum is though. they aren't as multicultural as the hardcore continuum was, but drill and afroswing are filling the cultural space in many ways. pressplay, uk rap plug, leaks only etc. are the equivalent of pirates.

craner
06-03-2018, 10:33 PM
All I can say is that I plugged into the music quite quick via tapes and later scraps of vinyl you could pick up in mostly house and techno-dominated specialist dance record shops, and this was really circa 93-95. But I was also lucky in that I had access to London in those years as a teenager because my mother would regularly visit her friends there with me and as soon as we got near London on the M4 I would be feverishly fondling the car stereo dial for pirates

I also took lots of blank tapes when inside London and ask for access to 1) a radio 2) a radio with a tape recorder.

This was exactly the most exciting way to access the most exciting music on the planet at that time. I'm a boy from the real provinces - Swansea for fuck's sake - but I have no truck with that sad provincial
mentality. London in that era was the most amazing musical capital in X number of ways.

thirdform
06-03-2018, 10:40 PM
The ironic thing about London is its this huge cosmopolitan magnet for immigration and yet its inhabitants tend to be basically provincially minded

I can see why btw - since moving here only a few years ago I've basically forgotten the rest of the country exists

you lot were cool with this when selling us out to community and religious leaders and business magnates.

sell off social housing. rile up antiblack sentiment. pray on internal racism and ethnic tensions.

make the middle class dream palatable to immigrants. insulate them from mixing. keep the unions and political organisations white. white is right!

thirdform
06-03-2018, 10:45 PM
why didn't asian and north african influences ever seriously filter into the nuum? there must be material explanation for this.

thirdform
06-03-2018, 10:50 PM
it's an idea of the coloured acceptable to brits. acceptable black british. Keep it christian.

Death to the british!

thirdform
06-03-2018, 10:51 PM
entirely predictable it ended up whitening out into deep tech.

thirdform
06-03-2018, 10:56 PM
im sad it died because i liked the idea of depersonalised house music in contrast to the able-ised bravado bodies of rap (not that i have a problem with that its just that i can't relate to it as much from disabled poc experience.)

but fuck it. i'm also glad cos i've never felt fully welcome in a rave without having to drink or get pingered up.

thirdform
06-03-2018, 11:04 PM
id be happy with music dying as capitalism destroys the planet. let it all go to hell. allow serious musos. no liberating potential of technology. same kind of alienation, isolation. no room for organising. shite. the dream isn't just an E dream now. even the dream of the fortified psyche is over now. such a shame. fruitless consumption. desire you can't even own anymore.

craner
06-03-2018, 11:14 PM
Not sure that I'm racist for the reason that I loved all of this music.

thirdform
06-03-2018, 11:20 PM
Not sure that I'm racist for the reason that I loved all of this music.

lol where'd i say that? am talking about the smug white m/c eulogising of crap and alienating conditions.

i love hardcore. love it to death. but to pretend it was truly multicultural is doing a disservice to the british experience for most of us.

garage maybe. maybe. but even then it was just a top 40 flavour.

luka
06-03-2018, 11:53 PM
why didn't asian and north african influences ever seriously filter into the nuum? there must be material explanation for this.

why didnt other west indian influences enter into it? soca? calypso?

luka
06-03-2018, 11:55 PM
Black and British has never been reducible to Jamaican but those other influences never entered he equation even though many of the artists had family from St. Lucia, Trinidad, Barbados, so on and so forth.

thirdform
06-03-2018, 11:56 PM
good question.

luka
07-03-2018, 08:09 AM
threads gone quiet lol

continuum
07-03-2018, 10:06 AM
The hardcore continuum didnít go quiet with the introduction of the internet! After Acid House became Hardcore it didnít lose any of itís what the fuckness. Hardcore exacerbated it. Jungle was a different side but still as free. Maybe as time has progressed some of the shock of the sound of electronic beats has diminished as weíve become more used to them. You can probably pinpoint this to the point when indie guitar bands completely went off the radar and hip hop and EDM took over the mainstream completely. Grime is like the generation xenellial of the hardcore continuum in that is straddled both not being internet based and vice versa. Post Grime every new music genre has had the internet to support and spread it. Far more effective in terms of numbers than pirate radio. Now every white middle class person knows about Bass House, Drum n Bass etc instead of isolated London boroughs but that hasnít had a negative effect. The idolising of driving into London and tuning in to the pirates is all well and good and I know this experience but it doesnít compare to the same buzz now being available to anyone with an internet connection. Itís just taken a different form in terms of signal carrier. The physical scenes still exist in clubs and festivals. Record shops moved online and so did their clientele. The discussions that took place in those places now happen on forums etc. Todayís hardcore continuum is far more expansive.

CORP$EY
07-03-2018, 10:39 AM
Was it London as a magnet for immigration that I was smugly eulogising?

sadmanbarty
07-03-2018, 11:08 AM
you lot were cool with this when selling us out to community and religious leaders and business magnates.

sell off social housing. rile up antiblack sentiment. pray on internal racism and ethnic tensions.

make the middle class dream palatable to immigrants. insulate them from mixing. keep the unions and political organisations white. white is right!

i hated it when corpsey did that

sadmanbarty
07-03-2018, 11:20 AM
US Hip Hop / Road Rap / Dancehall all equals yawn. Bass House / Bassline / Deep Tech (maybe less so) / Grime all have lots of new interesting releases etc going on.

can you show us which tracks/sets you're talking about here? are you hearing innovation in those things? if so, can you explain what you're hearing?

continuum
07-03-2018, 11:57 AM
can you show us which tracks/sets you're talking about here? are you hearing innovation in those things? if so, can you explain what you're hearing?

Bassline / Bass House wise I've put some stuff up on my blog (link in signature). I'll post some other bits and explain those when I get a moment later on :)

CORP$EY
07-03-2018, 12:00 PM
I love that luka's insistence on barty providing evidence has now been taken up by barty when dealing with other people :crylarf:

sadmanbarty
07-03-2018, 12:14 PM
hope you explain what made you return to blogging after a seven year hiatus.

continuum
07-03-2018, 12:17 PM
hope you explain what made you return to blogging after a seven year hiatus.

I was still blogging just not on that blog!

continuum
07-03-2018, 12:18 PM
I've returned to it now as I think it's interesting to see the contrast between 20007 and now..

sadmanbarty
07-03-2018, 12:21 PM
I love that luka's insistence on barty providing evidence has now been taken up by barty when dealing with other people :crylarf:

luka tribute act

sadmanbarty
07-03-2018, 12:24 PM
I love that luka's insistence on barty providing evidence has now been taken up by barty when dealing with other people :crylarf:

my opinions are so commonsensically true that it's condescending for me to explain them.

john eden
07-03-2018, 12:52 PM
why didnt other west indian influences enter into it? soca? calypso?

Because reggae became the dominant caribbean music in the UK from the late 60s onwards. Both in terms of the mainstream charts and also in terms of the subculture.

Reggae soundsystems all over London http://uncarved.org/dub/splash/directory.html

Also reggae record shops.

Soca and calypso were around but a bit of a sideshow.

UK reggae artists:

Mad Professor (Guyana)
Dennis Bovell (Barbados)
Eddy Grant (Guyana)

Plus a bunch I've forgotten - didn't matter where you were from, rasta and reggae where the main thing for black youth in the 70s and onwards (then dancehall, then hip hop).

john eden
07-03-2018, 01:19 PM
As to WHY reggae became so dominant, I assume it's just because the majority of post war immigrants from the Caribbean were from Jamaica?

According to wikipedia: "As of June 2007, the black population of London is 802,300 or 10.6% of the population of London. 4.3% of Londoners are Caribbean, 5.5% of Londoners are African and a further 0.8% are from other black backgrounds including American and Latin American. There are also 117,400 people who are mixed black and white"

So there is a gradual increase in the proportion of black Londoners of (immediate) African origin and they then become the majority in 2007.

Which presumably ties in with the increased African influences on 'nuum music like UK funky etc?

Corpsey
07-03-2018, 02:23 PM
Presumably different areas of London are more Carribbean-British or African-British. Just thinking of how road rap is a South London thing, by and large - is South London predominantly Carribbean-British, and is road rap too? Since Carribbean-British population of London has been around longer than the African-British, perhaps there's more of a disconnect with their cultural roots, which might partly explain why road rap is more of an American influenced thing than Jamaican (not to forget of course that Jamaicans had a big hand in inventing hip hop).

Only was thinking this from reading an article in the Economist



Africans remain less integrated than Caribbeans. Eight out of ten Africans choose an African partner, whereas by comparison less than half of Caribbeans settle down with a fellow Caribbean. A child under ten who has a Caribbean parent is more than twice as likely as not to have a white parent.

Some believe that Africansí delay in integrating may actually help to explain their success. West Africans, in particular, have a ďseparateness and social distanceĒ in areas such as language, dress and religious worship

Corpsey
07-03-2018, 02:24 PM
Alternatively am I just an idiot?

Corpsey
07-03-2018, 02:27 PM
why didnt other west indian influences enter into it? soca? calypso?

Seem to recall reading in 'Bass Culture' years ago that ska/reggae was a Jamaican take on early rock n roll. Perhaps explains in part why it had more crossover appeal for white Europeans/Americans than soca and so on.

Corpsey
07-03-2018, 02:28 PM
Walking on eggshells now lol

sadmanbarty
07-03-2018, 02:44 PM
Presumably different areas of London are more Carribbean-British or African-British. Just thinking of how road rap is a South London thing, by and large - is South London predominantly Carribbean-British, and is road rap too? Since Carribbean-British population of London has been around longer than the African-British, perhaps there's more of a disconnect with their cultural roots, which might partly explain why road rap is more of an American influenced thing than Jamaican (not to forget of course that Jamaicans had a big hand in inventing hip hop).

Only was thinking this from reading an article in the Economist

I was going to make a somewhat similar argument yesterday; that the further away from the initial wave of migration a culture gets the more it'll be inclined to produce hybrid cultural expression. In the 70's and 80's british jamaican's were making reggae and dancehall, whereas by the 90's they were making jungle and whatever else.

thinking about my mates, they associate enough with afrobeats, they don't seem to particularly need a british take on it or to incorporate it into something else.


road rap is more of an American influenced thing than Jamaican

and just to hark on again about one of my pet theories, i'd argue that the drums in drill at the moment stem from dancehall, afrobeats, grime and folk memories of jungle.

version
07-03-2018, 02:47 PM
Seem to recall reading in 'Bass Culture' years ago that ska/reggae was a Jamaican take on early rock n roll.

That sample of Coxsone Dodd (?) at the start of Loefah's 'Root' seems to suggest that too.

"... then came the rock 'n' roll, but the rock 'n' roll didn't go over strongly so about that time we realised we had to really make some music of our own to keep the people happy..."

CORP$EY
07-03-2018, 02:49 PM
and just to hark on again about one of my pet theories, i'd argue that the drums in drill at the moment stem from dancehall, afrobeats, grime and folk memories of jungle.

Obviously I don't listen to enough drill or don't listen closely enough cos it just sounds like trap to me... (doubly confusing as chicago drill is being included in 'trap' there)

Slothrop
07-03-2018, 03:03 PM
Seem to recall reading in 'Bass Culture' years ago that ska/reggae was a Jamaican take on early rock n roll. Perhaps explains in part why it had more crossover appeal for white Europeans/Americans than soca and so on.

It was more jump-boogie (ISTR Louis Jordan was massive) than rock n roll proper, I think. Production in JA began in earnest when the US scene moved on to rhythm and blues and rock and roll but local audiences still wanted more boogie - that's what Coxsone was talking about.

droid
07-03-2018, 03:16 PM
New Orleans.

CrowleyHead
07-03-2018, 04:38 PM
UK Drill is just infinitely more British than the road rap that'd come before it.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/Smvkz9Qggs0" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

A record like this is just not happening in the US. No way, listen to those drums, the whole of the approach.

CORP$EY
07-03-2018, 04:52 PM
oh i see what you mean

i probably should actually listen to one of barty's youtube posts

CORP$EY
07-03-2018, 04:59 PM
I know I've asked this sort of thing a lot before but with road rap, say, where are the spaces/lines of communication?

Are there forums, magazines, hubs? Or is it all Youtube/Facebook/Twitter?

owengriffiths
07-03-2018, 05:50 PM
craner talks about wales all the time but droid never talks about dublin. why?

Droid is far too busy to be talking about his hometown, not like you Cockneys who are all on the dole and have got nothing better to do.

owengriffiths
07-03-2018, 05:58 PM
My trusted source (Hundred Million Lifetimes) has provided me with a photo of Droid hard at work on horseback

https://images.vice.com/vice/images/galleries/meta/2014/07/11/164741-1413261070805.jpeg

Corpsey
07-03-2018, 06:15 PM
I'm looking forward to seeing what russian billionaires contribute to the hardcore continuum

sadmanbarty
07-03-2018, 06:16 PM
I know I've asked this sort of thing a lot before but with road rap, say, where are the spaces/lines of communication?

Are there forums, magazines, hubs? Or is it all Youtube/Facebook/Twitter?

youtube is where the music's being heard, i guess the comments and twitter is where it's being discussed and snapchat's where artists post endless videos of themselves either driving through opp territory or using their own prison cell bed frame as a barbecue apparatus.

sadmanbarty
07-03-2018, 06:27 PM
Obviously I don't listen to enough drill or don't listen closely enough cos it just sounds like trap to me... (doubly confusing as chicago drill is being included in 'trap' there)

*boring rhythm talk ahead*

trap is ostensibly around 60-70 bpm and when counted at that tempo the drums are pretty generic (snare on the 2 and 4, etc.). however the hi hats and the other instrumentation often imply it's at double speed (meaning the snares are now on the 3). i think reynolds says that jungle does the same thing; implies two tempos.

what uk drill does is have the drums doing both tempos. with the kick/boom and clack sounds it'll map out a trap beat in the background, while the snares will play dancehall/afrobeats style tresillo rhythms at double the speed.

sadmanbarty
07-03-2018, 06:30 PM
oh and all the ghost notes make it sound jungly

luka
07-03-2018, 08:13 PM
incidentally in the brand new issue of the Wire, Michaelangelo Matos has done a Primer to UK Pirate Radio DJ Sets, starting around 1988 and going through to the end of the 2000s. He's done a good job framing the evolution and found a lot of gems, drawing on his formidable resources of obsessive-compulsiveness and sifting through what seems to have been an insane number of contenders

incidentally if youre as familiar with the reynolds oevre as i am youll understand this means
"lol wtf why are they getting this wierdo dweeb to write about my subject? hes not even english. and he only knows about this stuff from reading me anyway fucking sort it out derek"

luka
07-03-2018, 08:39 PM
Because reggae became the dominant caribbean music in the UK from the late 60s onwards. Both in terms of the mainstream charts and also in terms of the subculture.

Reggae soundsystems all over London http://uncarved.org/dub/splash/directory.html

Also reggae record shops.

Soca and calypso were around but a bit of a sideshow.

UK reggae artists:

Mad Professor (Guyana)
Dennis Bovell (Barbados)
Eddy Grant (Guyana)

Plus a bunch I've forgotten - didn't matter where you were from, rasta and reggae where the main thing for black youth in the 70s and onwards (then dancehall, then hip hop).


it was a largely rhetorical question but there's no harm in answering it.

luka
07-03-2018, 08:39 PM
Just thinking of how road rap is a South London thing, by and large - is South London predominantly Carribbean-British, and is road rap too?

no.

luka
07-03-2018, 08:41 PM
probably still fair to say south-east london is the heartland of african london, albeit not to the extent it was in the early 00s.

padraig (u.s.)
07-03-2018, 09:08 PM
*boring rhythm talk ahead*
fwiw I at least am infinitely more interested in nuts+bolts rhythm talk than rehashing is/isn't nuum for the nth time

my understanding is that the bassline in jungle usually runs halftime to the drums? or the drums run double-time to the bass, to put it the other way. I'm sure snare/hi-hat/kick placement also plays a role in implying two tempos tho I couldn't tell you how. I seem iirc something about a hallmark of 2-step being the hi-hat keeping time while the kick does syncopated patterns, triplets, whatever? actually, barty or droid or someone, what actually keeps time in jungle? is there even a central rhythmic element in jungle the way the kick marks time in disco/house, or no?

these are pretty basic question I guess. idk I play drums basically by feel, I can't really break down more complex rhythmic things.

would be happy to have a thread just devoted to rhythm/drums talk btw, if there was sufficient interest

thirdform
07-03-2018, 09:08 PM
i hated it when corpsey did that


i know. such a sweet boy. but i can't help but hold him entirely responsible.

Seriously tho i was a bit agitated last night, don't take it personal anyone. gotta release the demons sometimes. anger is the only therapy.

luka
07-03-2018, 09:09 PM
no harm done. i think everyone took it for what it was.

Sectionfive
07-03-2018, 09:10 PM
For me personally it will always come back to the DJs. The birth of any scene worth talking about ....before DJs in turn go on to fuck it up. Things are probably healthy as they have ever been in that regard but the old conditions and potential will probably never exist ways it once did.


The particular dynamism of the hardcore continuum came from the unstable squashing together of the different people / attitudes / traditions that got pulled into hardcore. Its history since then has basically been separation and stratification and gradual dispersal of potential energy - everyone pulling out the elements of hardcore / jungle that they liked and settling into smaller and more stable scenes, which might still be good, but lack the original constant what-the-fuck inventiveness.

It is interesting to think of this in terms of conversations happening either inward, outwardly or otherwise.

Jungle was an inward conversation about jazz, hiphop and techno through a reggae frame, while in itself sat alongside broad trends in hiphop and house as things got more siloed. On the sonic level it could even mirror a decline of overt sampling as the 90s progressed and that everything-in-the-pot nature slipped away. You could hear the same vocal hook across dozens of records in different scenes in 1994 but numm-wise everything after, with possibly the exception of broken beat (which incidentally did take other West Indian / African / South American influence) were having very different one way and only partial conversations with Detroit, Chicago and NYC.

Garage was house conversation with jungle before rnb and grime wasn't speaking about techno at all. North American influence in dubstep came through a European backdoor like the Belgian stuff had previously and in turn had an outward effect on European techno.

West Indian influence is running the US charts now in interesting ways it hasn't done since a couple of records from the nineties? Maybe there is a certain homogeneity in what gets heard but there is a feedback loop running there between US, London, Lagos and Kingston which seems to be the big conversion of these times.

padraig (u.s.)
07-03-2018, 09:11 PM
interested in this double/half-time idea/two tempos idea in general, seems to combine the functional, aesthetic + almost philosophical if that makes sense

luka
07-03-2018, 09:11 PM
fwiw I at least am infinitely more interested in nuts+bolts rhythm talk than rehashing is/isn't nuum for the nth time

my understanding is that the bassline in jungle usually runs halftime to the drums? or the drums run double-time to the bass, to put it the other way. I'm sure snare/hi-hat/kick placement also plays a role in implying two tempos tho I couldn't tell you how. I seem iirc something about a hallmark of 2-step being the hi-hat keeping time while the kick does syncopated patterns, triplets, whatever? actually, barty or droid or someone, what actually keeps time in jungle? is there even a central rhythmic element in jungle the way the kick marks time in disco/house, or no?

these are pretty basic question I guess. idk I play drums basically by feel, I can't really break down more complex rhythmic things.

would be happy to have a thread just devoted to rhythm/drums talk btw, if there was sufficient interest

i remember years ago dissensus tried to do with (with 2-step) and i showed it to one of my musician mates and said does this make any sense and he cracked up laughing and said, no, none whatsoever.

mind you we didnt have top sesion drummer barty in the fold then (has worked with the wombats, stereophonic and baby bird)

padraig (u.s.)
07-03-2018, 09:22 PM
Eddy Grant (Guyana)
bit of a stretch to call him reggae proper no? not disputing your main point, it's actually interesting cos he's a dude who was fusing multiple (largely) Black British things together - reggae, disco, jazz funk, etc - with white musics. usually nuum discussions focus on the techno meets reggae + breakbeats narrative, soundsystems, junglists with roots as breakdancing electro era bboys, etc but every so often someone mentions jazz-funk + rare groove, which clearly those dudes grew up listening to, from the proliferation of samples in jungle.

this absolutely great, full-on proto-house tune is from 1977! always been a v forward dude, from The Equals on down

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7cXYw8FkoA

padraig (u.s.)
07-03-2018, 09:36 PM
Trance won
btw, this. not surprising that the descendant of arena trance wound up victorious, especially in the U.S., which by + large fundamentally does not get dance music.

droid
07-03-2018, 09:39 PM
fwiw I at least am infinitely more interested in nuts+bolts rhythm talk than rehashing is/isn't nuum for the nth time

my understanding is that the bassline in jungle usually runs halftime to the drums? or the drums run double-time to the bass, to put it the other way. I'm sure snare/hi-hat/kick placement also plays a role in implying two tempos tho I couldn't tell you how. I seem iirc something about a hallmark of 2-step being the hi-hat keeping time while the kick does syncopated patterns, triplets, whatever? actually, barty or droid or someone, what actually keeps time in jungle? is there even a central rhythmic element in jungle the way the kick marks time in disco/house, or no?

these are pretty basic question I guess. idk I play drums basically by feel, I can't really break down more complex rhythmic things.

would be happy to have a thread just devoted to rhythm/drums talk btw, if there was sufficient interest

Ive been banging the double tempo drum for about a decade now, a unique innovation in jungle, made possible by the jump in tempo from the 130's-140's from hardcore to the 160's of jungle. I dont think there's anything else like it dance music. You really start to hear it once things begin to hit 150 or so as there's a ton of dub and reggae at this tempo (70's).

There's nothing mysterious about 2 step, the snare is almost always on the 2, with a some slight variation on the 4. The kick is almost always at the start of the bar (though you may have some variation, delay or repeats in the second half - the magic is all in the swing of the hats.

There isnt really a common rhythmic element in jungle, sometimes tunes lead with the snares, others with the kicks, but one thing thats noticeable if you listen for it is that the majority of jungle tunes tend to have a kick (or sometimes a snare) on the first beat and/or a snare on the 2 & the 4, its the stuff around it that breaks up and transforms the rhythm. Obv the later you get the shorter the phrases get, so where you might once have a had a drum pattern that took 4 or more bars to resolve only takes 1 or 2.

padraig (u.s.)
07-03-2018, 09:47 PM
the 130's-140's from hardcore to the 160's of jungle
I assume this is why hardcore can actually feel considerably more frenetic despite being slower - the bass running at the same time as the drums

(one of the reasons anyway, aside from chipmunk vox, rave stabs, anything goes sampling/production, general e'd up vibes, etc)

"swing" seems like one of those abstract rhythmic concepts no one can actually properly explain, tho I'm sure that's wrong + I've just heard never anyone properly explain it

droid
07-03-2018, 09:48 PM
I cant find my comments on the double tempo thing, but one important thing is that grounding the rhythms in half time bass allowed the beats to slide into top gear tempo wise - which meant people could still dance to it despite the accelerated tempo. If you check out a happy hardcore or deathchant type tune at 160+, there's no space, no groove, fast 4x4 obliterates nuance with its relentlessness, yet with jungle you can have these variations in pressure and gorgeously spacious rhythmscapes at the same tempo.

Incidentally, thats what got lost once the BPMs hit 180. there's a sweet spot there, roughly between 156 & 170.

padraig (u.s.)
07-03-2018, 09:50 PM
I am 100% sure I have read you + other people say exactly that before, half-time bass, 155-170ish sweet spot, etc

john eden
07-03-2018, 09:59 PM
bit of a stretch to call him reggae proper no?

Yeah my reggae nerd powers are diminished so I couldnít remember many more names lol.

Heís an interesting figure for sure - good bits about Coach House Studios in the Lloyd Bradley Sounds Like London. Apparently a terrible landlord tho.

padraig (u.s.)
07-03-2018, 10:05 PM
one of the interesting (to me) things in jungle is how much the more skilled producers constantly modify the main break with fills, flourishes, variations

obviously this gets more complex the later you get until at a certain point it swings back hard the other way

or idk Photek even, so clinically precise that it's completely stripped of any of the frenetic, clattering, etc

padraig (u.s.)
07-03-2018, 10:13 PM
I am interested in general in how any musician, arranger, producer maintains interest in a groove of any kind

use of percussion beyond a trap set, syncopation, elements from dub (echo, delay, use of space), constant introduction/removal of elements

really listening to so much disco, disco not disco, post-disco, etc as well as electro, all the tricks you start recognizing if you hear them enough times

padraig (u.s.)
07-03-2018, 10:15 PM
that's a bit far afield from any continuum talk so I'll just leave off, but yes

but also quickly Eddy Grant also pops up as a producer etc of other people's things, talking about percussion. or in this case percussion + fuzz.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkRrdmItB50

droid
07-03-2018, 10:16 PM
Oh no, Photek was the master of creative break slicing, almost unparalleled. Check out his EZ rollers remix. You can have complexity and groove without frenetics. Even something rhythmically simple like Rings around Saturn is beautifully done, and those little apache drops in UFO... like lightning illuminating a dark thicket of breaks. Pure genius.

padraig (u.s.)
07-03-2018, 10:41 PM
Pure genius
not disputing it, just a different thing. v Blade Runner.

droid
07-03-2018, 10:44 PM
Dont!

Check out this lad, all those little micro rolls around a simple pattern after the bass comes in. Wonderfully spacious and still a great groove.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HiCicAf8Vd4

thirdform
07-03-2018, 11:21 PM
yeah 170+ is too fast unless it's gabba.

i do miss those 150-160 tempos in modern music tho, excluding juke obviously.

id like 2 say im down with the whole autonomic/halftime thing but these days (2018) it ain't doing it for me.

thirdform
07-03-2018, 11:22 PM
i might not be looking hard enough granted.

sadmanbarty
08-03-2018, 02:03 AM
one thing thats noticeable if you listen for it is that the majority of jungle tunes tend to have a snare on the 2 & the 4

not in 94, probably not by late 93 either. the snare emphasis moving away from the 2 and 4 is one of the things that delineates jungle from hardcore. jungle's physicality; the way it tugs you sideways, the way it pulls you off balance, is all dependant on it not landing on both the 2 and 4 in the same bar.

sadmanbarty
08-03-2018, 02:08 AM
"swing" seems like one of those abstract rhythmic concepts no one can actually properly explain, tho I'm sure that's wrong + I've just heard never anyone properly explain it

people do say 'swing' in the same as they'd say 'that rocks', 'it's funky', 'it's groovy', but it's also a real, measurable thing as well.

padraig (u.s.)
08-03-2018, 03:56 AM
real, measurable thing as well
is there a relatively clear way to explain it technically? especially in terms of, say, 2-step?

I get that it has to do with changing the duration or placement of eighth (or sixteenth) notes on the hi-hat (tho you can also do it on guitar, piano, etc)? moving from a straight eighth note, 1-e-AND-a, closer to the first note of the next measure, i.e. between "and" and the 2 of 2-e-and-a, and the closer it gets to the 2 the greater the degree of swing? implying but not necessarily playing triplets? that may be wrong/a dumb way of saying it.

while we're it at I think I basically also get clave, tresillo, etc 3:2. is this a sped up tresillo of sorts? especially at the very beginning, sounds like 3:2 to me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_l1bjtjzZFo

padraig (u.s.)
08-03-2018, 04:03 AM
also I get that you can break down/explain things like swing, shuffle, etc but it seems like at some level it always comes down to feel when you're actually playing drums

in a different way in drum programming - producers + would be producers often seem to get metaphysical when talking about things like creating the swing in 2-step

I'm sure it's cos I'm not really a drummer but I've always been interested with that kinda abstract side of drums

also v interested in all functional rhythmic tricks tho

Slothrop
08-03-2018, 09:59 AM
I get that it has to do with changing the duration or placement of eighth (or sixteenth) notes on the hi-hat (tho you can also do it on guitar, piano, etc)? moving from a straight eighth note, 1-e-AND-a, closer to the first note of the next measure, i.e. between "and" and the 2 of 2-e-and-a, and the closer it gets to the 2 the greater the degree of swing? implying but not necessarily playing triplets?

That's roughly how I'd understand it - sixteenth notes delayed slightly. Although I suspect that people who are really good at it are doing smarter stuff with timing and velocity than just applying a consistent X% delay to every off-beat sixteenth. And yeah, you get swing on any instrument that's playing sixteenth notes, basically. Listen to old boogie woogie and (derp) swing piano, for instance.

droid
08-03-2018, 10:06 AM
not in 94, probably not by late 93 either. the snare emphasis moving away from the 2 and 4 is one of the things that delineates jungle from hardcore. jungle's physicality; the way it tugs you sideways, the way it pulls you off balance, is all dependant on it not landing on both the 2 and 4 in the same bar.


A few random samples of 2/4 from 94/95:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZU_jg3e7Lso
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxTltrwuV2Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaWmjJNG9o0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2ek5nZAjVk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MC4yCPbdbT4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWxkXcn2riE

And even when you dont have the snare on the 2 & 4 you still have it on the 2 of every bar, or they have a second or third break that comes in and adds it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nbVsorrCEg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uj7EO2uVfDQ

Of course it depends on the break, tunes that use say... hotpants and helicopter tend to have a more prominent 2/4 snare. Whereas Soul Pride and Amen rollers tend to have longer bar phrases ala:


https://youtu.be/rviK7nWV-Vo

Like I said, there's plenty of tunes that have much longer phrases but it is surprising how many tunes have the snare on 2/4, or have it implied. Whats important though is all the other stuff around it.

Slothrop
08-03-2018, 10:26 AM
Like I said, there's plenty of tunes that have much longer phrases but it is surprising how many tunes have the snare on 2/4, or have it implied. Whats important though is all the other stuff around it.
The 2/4 snare is normally there, but it feels like part of the technique of jungle is trying to disrupt that pattern to tweak the dancers' expectations. Sometimes it's just in the last half bar at the end of a phrase, sometimes they really see how far out they can push it without entirely losing sight of the implicit pulse, but either way it seems to be where a lot of the tension and forward movement comes from.

sadmanbarty
08-03-2018, 10:57 AM
Helicopter tune and special dedication don’t have the snare on 2 and 4. Null lines has an emphasis on the off beat of three as well as the 4, which gives it an angularity.

Just skimming through these:

I think this has one 2 & 4 tune (Levitcus-Burial):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SglxnkPNUk

This has 3 (one was Levitcus- Burial, one was Alex Reece so not exactly proper Jungle, also Bukem's Horizons which was released in 95)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QWYc71Giag

Didn’t hear any in this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TPv3cfo5mI

CORP$EY
08-03-2018, 11:06 AM
FYI the hardcore continuum died when jazzy bastards invaded it and started talking about snare patterns

sadmanbarty
08-03-2018, 11:06 AM
a lot of truth in that

CORP$EY
08-03-2018, 11:13 AM
one might say it was the... logical progression

ba-dum-tsch-tsch-tsch-ba-dum-dum-tsch-tsch-tsch-ba-dum-ba-ba-b-ba-ba-dum-tsch

*saxophone note*

luka
08-03-2018, 01:04 PM
ive seen enough of these desultory arguments to assume that once you reach a certain order of complexity no definitive answer iss possible/multiple interpretations become valid.

if you can't agree on ways to count to 4 then what hope is there?

CORP$EY
08-03-2018, 01:10 PM
FYI the hardcore continuum died when jazzy bastards invaded it and started talking about snare patterns

OTOH without the jazzy bastards there'd be no drum breaks to pilfer in the first place

sadmanbarty
08-03-2018, 03:38 PM
ive seen enough of these desultory arguments to assume that once you reach a certain order of complexity no definitive answer iss possible/multiple interpretations become valid.

if you can't agree on ways to count to 4 then what hope is there?

i can see why you say that, but it genuinely is a concrete, binary thing. if you tap your foot at 160 bpm or whatever the snare's either when you tap or it's not.

luka
08-03-2018, 03:57 PM
youd think so wouldnt you.

thirdform
08-03-2018, 08:23 PM
lol @ alex reece and bukem not being proper jungle.

Admit it lads jungle had a jazzy side to it since day 1. Did that get insufferable by 96? absolutely

By barty's revisionist logic dillinja ain't proper jungle either.. ur restricting it to what was in dj ron's crate - oh wait he played roni size tunes.

sadmanbarty
08-03-2018, 08:40 PM
i'm probably the biggest bukem fan on dissensus, i didn't say he's not jungle. as far as the alex reece goes, i wouldn't say it's a typical jungle track. i wouldn't point to it to show someone what jungle was.

CORP$EY
09-03-2018, 09:59 AM
i mean what slothrop said earlier about hardcore applies to jungle too

started out being a healthy mixture of things and then certain people liked the jazzy bits too much or the jump-uppy bits too much and invented entire sub genres out of them

this actually is what happened to dubstep too imo, it was perfectly balanced for a year or two max and then it split into overly aggressive wobble and slightly/actually boring dub-techno/post-dubstep stuff. the odd coki mash-up tune at DMZ in a set would be a moment of peak energy but then it quickly became 20 coki/coki-a-like tunes in a row and even more than 2 in a row is pushing the boredom levels IMO

CORP$EY
09-03-2018, 10:07 AM
i don't think in dubstep's case we're dealing with the will/surrender thing luka talks about in fempressure thread but we're definitely dealing with increasingly stale polarities

whereas to me loefah/dmz/skream tunes circa 2006 are like the singularity

sadmanbarty
09-03-2018, 10:27 AM
the polarity within masculinity. cold, reserved, taxonimical at one end and brash, shrill, aggressive at the other.

CORP$EY
09-03-2018, 10:31 AM
maybe a wanky way to look at it as well as reductive but at one point it was about aggression with restraints on it, then it split into unrestrained aggression and aggression neutered...

mind you there was some great stuff in the initial 'post-dubstep' phase... the further things went from the singlarity the more diluted and diffuse it became

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDo0cCtUulE

sadmanbarty
09-03-2018, 10:40 AM
there was a noble effort over a couple of years between funky and some of that post-dubstep to try and redeem broken beat. make it seem like it'd been worthwhile. just about worked i'd say.

sadmanbarty
09-03-2018, 10:48 AM
actually when benny posted that mixcloud he's doing collecting old funky sets i was a bit taken aback by how housey it all was (to be fair there are sets where i don't get that feeling). funky was at it's best (or at least most vital) when it was broken-beat-that's-not-shit. that strand of it should have been bigger really.

Corpsey
09-03-2018, 10:49 AM
https://youtu.be/yU3VKscXeM0

This could work in a funky set

Bit slick but some of funky was like that

sadmanbarty
09-03-2018, 10:52 AM
no, funky was tacky slick. an idea of sophistication by people who weren't aloud in those circles. a pastiche.

droid
09-03-2018, 10:56 AM
When El-B played here around I dunno, 2010 or so he played an amazing UK funky set, bits of ragga, ruffneck bass, stuttery beats, so there was definitely more than one strain.

CORP$EY
09-03-2018, 11:04 AM
no, funky was tacky slick. an idea of sophistication by people who weren't aloud in those circles. a pastiche.

yeah but they did play tunes like this in sets

personally although funky obviously got really interesting when it went all grimey, I liked listening to funky sets when they'd intersperse hard house banton and roska with dennis ferrer and stuff like that

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LiLqssyAiv8

sadmanbarty
09-03-2018, 11:06 AM
i liked all the girl choons. dissensus put too much emphasis on it going hard or grimey back in the day.

CORP$EY
09-03-2018, 11:13 AM
tbf to us I don't think it was like that entirely, there was a mixture of interests

ppl like Tim F and Benny B e.g. would have championed the girly tunes

since i've been here this forum has erred more towards hardcore continuum line on that sort of question i.e. drum n bass/techstep/dubstep is boring and garage/grime/hardcore are the gold standard

sadmanbarty
09-03-2018, 11:15 AM
get funky, get bumpy

<iframe width="100%" height="60" src="https://www.mixcloud.com/widget/iframe/?hide_cover=1&mini=1&feed=%2Fdjpioneer%2Fdj-pioneer-bushkin-live-old-skool-sundays-2007%2F" frameborder="0" ></iframe>

sadmanbarty
09-03-2018, 11:22 AM
a more nuanced thing to say is that there were people on dissensus who rightly said there was something missing in funky, but they misidentified the problem. funky didn't need to get darker, harder or more grimey. it needed to create it's own, less derivative rhythmic idiom.

CORP$EY
09-03-2018, 11:24 AM
i'm sure some ppl thought that cos they came from the perspective of being into grime/jungle etc. (me included, i should think)

but from where i sit now i don't think funky was missing anything really - crazy cousinz tunes from that time are basically perfect...

mind you i do wonder if there was a pathway that might have been headed down based on the energy of the MCs on Petchy's sets

sadmanbarty
09-03-2018, 11:49 AM
https://www.juno.co.uk/products/marcus-ayia-urban-exposure-at-gatecrasher-seven/378651-01/

CORP$EY
09-03-2018, 11:51 AM
reminds me of what blissblogger said about analogue/digital

funky was one of the last scenes where analogue stuff was still applicable - although obviously a lot of djs were using CD-Js by that point, you still had white labels, pirate radio (though more internet radio by that point), tape packs (albeit DVD packs), etc. there was a sense that it was taking place somewhere IRL

sadmanbarty
09-03-2018, 11:56 AM
in the uk the internet's ushered in a hyper-localisation because you can broadcast your own little tower block or whatever to the whole world. drills far more place oriented than the nuum stuff isn't it?

CORP$EY
09-03-2018, 12:19 PM
having typed a few responses...

i'm not going to talk about drill anymore cos i don't really listen to it or know anything about it

sadmanbarty
09-03-2018, 12:21 PM
for fuck's sake corpse, write your responses anyway. without timidness or self-depreciation

luka
09-03-2018, 12:22 PM
it's very important from a therapeutic standpoint that you do this corpsey. its how you heal.

sadmanbarty
09-03-2018, 12:26 PM
)))))))):love:((((((((

CORP$EY
09-03-2018, 12:32 PM
all i was going to say was that drill seems almost TOO place specific to be as popular as previous nuum genres were outside of its locale (south london but also similar areas across the UK and who knows maybe even elsewhere)

as you say its very place specific - most of the comments underneath youtube videos at least appear to be by people who know about the gang wars going on (barely) behind the scenes... and of course names like 67 (as i had explained to me on here) are literally about place

and it's not just the culture that is place specific, but the music itself - this is where i'm on shaky ground, but what i've heard of drill doesn't seem to be as imaginatively removed from the streets as grime was - the aesthetic of the beats is sometimes dramatic, but in a quite restrained way (Actually, I don't get a sense of place from American trap production, either, as opposed to say houston rap from the mike jones/paul wall era - this goes back to the atlanta thread, talking about how a brits vague picture of what LA 'is' matches up or doesn't match up with what LA rap sounds like)... it's a bit like comparing mobb deep to wu tang - in that mobb deep's music SOUNDS LIKE queensbridge streets, like rain-drenched (cliche cliche cliche), whereas Wu Tang's sounds like kung fu meets noir...

i mean i can't help self-depreciate here cos i feel like i am very likely talking a load of old bollocks - which is what happens when you use something you're not that familiar with as a launching pad for theories

sadmanbarty
09-03-2018, 12:46 PM
there's loads of genius stuff in there that i'll properly attend to after i get home.

continuum
14-03-2018, 04:02 PM
(It'd also be nice if someone says that it's in fact not dead and then posts a few nondescript tracks that they wrongly feel signify it's continued health and vibrancy)

Following up on the above:

Where does the hardcore continuum head next?

So weíve reached Deep Tech, or we did in about 2013, so what happens or has happened next? I think last time I wrote about this I said that we had gone full circle and were basically back at Acid House again with Deep Tech. Since this statement Iíve done a bit of research and discovered that this may not be entirely the case. Deep Tech seems to be moving slowly towards a a harder more hardcore vibe in some areas with DJs like Jack n Danny and Aaron Vybe and Perch MC (who have handily just released a new mix which is well worth a listen):

Aaron Vybe & Perch MC - Devastation Mix (https://soundcloud.com/perchmc/aaron-vybe-perch-mc-devastation-mix)

Having said that, I still hear less hardcorey and more stripped down sets from Deep Tech DJs like Majesty and Lee Edwards that are also interesting in the paths they are exploring. More trad house but still with a that darker hardcore edge in there. Perhaps where Majesty and Lee Edwards might fail is perhaps an over reliance on darkness. Jack n Danny and Aaron Vybe are not quite as dark and therefore more appealing I think.

Another development seems to be the Bassline / Bass House area which from a few bits Iíve read and listened to say it started getting interesting again around 2015 (please correct me if Iím wrong on the date). Bassline appears to have gotten slower bpm wise while still sounding roughly the same albeit with a bit more Skrillex / maximalism thrown in. It sounds a bit more professional now and not quite so underground and this seems to be reflected in the videos of raves where this is being played and that Iíve been to. Girls are into it for one thing and not just working class girls (which seems to be more true of girls at Deep Tech events - again correct me if Iím wrong - but also middle class white girls. Importantly the music is really good if you ignore some of the more soulless EDM bits. Itís like Bassline has looked at EDM and its success and gone Ďwe can do that but actually make the music good at the same timeí. What you are also seeing in the Bassline scene is a merging of Bass House and other similarly named sub genres circling around the same sweet spot. Jamie Duggan mentions it in THIS (https://thetab.com/uk/sheffield/2018/03/07/when-doing-the-line-ups-we-listen-to-what-people-want-bassline-legend-jamie-duggan-on-the-biggest-springfest-to-date-30664?utm_campaign=post_published_0&utm_source=transactional&utm_medium=email) recent interview:


In your capacity as a DJ, you are one of the originators of bassline as it is known. How has the sound grown up over the years?

It's definitely changed a lot but the vibe of it still remains. People still love to hear a big dirty wobbler dropped no matter what!

I think the difference today is that there's a lot of bass and bassline sub-genres this time around, and a lot of different and new producers / sounds from up and down the UK, which are all merging together in each otherís sets. Which in turn is gathering huge fan bases from everywhere and spreading like wildfire!

The genre is branching out to Lost & Found, Reading & Leeds and Parklife Festivals, as well as traditionally house based clubs like Fabric. Where do you see it heading next?

Honestly, you never know. It's huge at the minute and forever growing with no signs of slowing or hitting a brick wall anytime soon, so the sky's the limit!

Similarly Holy Goof touches on the subject in THIS (https://www.fabriclondon.com/blog/view/introducing-holy-goof-and-his-fabriclive-promo-mix) interview:


In a nutshell then, how would you best describe your sound?

A sound people can party to! There's so many elements within my music: garage, bassline, grime, house and more! I don't really think there's a label as of yet that people call this sound. I guess it gets branded under the 'UK bass' umbrella which is so wide at the moment.

The Holy Goof interview is from 2016 so maybe this has changed but he seems to infer that the sound they are developing is or was in itís what do you call it moment.

For me then there are currently two or maybe three strands that show potential as becoming or having become the next stop on the hardcore continuum. Personally I believe that Deep Tech will go the same way as Bassline and Bass House and get more hardcorey ŗ la Aaron Vybe and Jack n Danny and maybe meet up with the Bassline / Bass House strand at some point. The more trad house orientated Deep Tech DJs such as Majesty and Lee Edwards I see being subsumed into trad house. Does anyone else have any thoughts on this?

Benny B
14-03-2018, 05:49 PM
i liked all the girl choons. dissensus put too much emphasis on it going hard or grimey back in the day.

:x:

https://www.mixcloud.com/Classic_UK_Funky_Sets/marcus-nasty-ladies-special-rinse-fm-30-march-2011/

"fingering your emotions"

Benny B
14-03-2018, 06:03 PM
actually when benny posted that mixcloud he's doing collecting old funky sets i was a bit taken aback by how housey it all was (to be fair there are sets where i don't get that feeling). funky was at it's best (or at least most vital) when it was broken-beat-that's-not-shit. that strand of it should have been bigger really.

which ones did you think were too housey? When you say 'housey', do you just mean 4x4 kicks, cos I think one thing thing funky proved is that you can do really interesting polyrhythmic stuff and still have a 4x4 undertow - there wasn't much funky that had that monolithic untz untz thing that you generally associate with straight house. The 4x4 kick pattern, when it was there, tended to be lower in the mix to give space to the percussion.

If youīre looking for a set that illustrates this well, I can recommend this all instrumental special from marcus nasty :fire::fire::fire:

https://www.mixcloud.com/Classic_UK_Funky_Sets/marcus-nasty-mcs-rankin-shantie-all-instrumental-special-rinse-fm-22-september-2010/

Benny B
14-03-2018, 06:11 PM
a more nuanced thing to say is that there were people on dissensus who rightly said there was something missing in funky, but they misidentified the problem. funky didn't need to get darker, harder or more grimey. it needed to create it's own, less derivative rhythmic idiom.

there were people on here arguing for 'dark funky' at the time, which is fine but the real problem on the funky thread for a while was refugees from dubstepforum posting loads of watery post dubstep until luka made an interventionīto save the thread iirc :cool:

don't agree that funky 'needed to create it's own, less derivative rhythmic idiom' though.

sadmanbarty
14-03-2018, 06:36 PM
there was a noble effort over a couple of years between funky and some of that post-dubstep to try and redeem broken beat. make it seem like it'd been worthwhile. just about worked i'd say.

any rhythmic innovation is only going to make sense in it's relation to the body. broken beat was actually a rhythmic innovation but it was unremarkable because it played down it's physiological potency (through mixing, through the drum timbres, through the other instrumentation, probably it was too slow). it was so keen to come across as 'cleaver' and cerebral that it ended up being completely delibidinized; completely devoid of physicality. the one way i think you can put funky on the pedestal with other nuum genres was the fact that it was the genre to fully realise this new rhythmic idiom.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uENOY2cSRcA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j96FnnxVVWQ

the insturmental breaks in this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GM21wzdediI

sadmanbarty
14-03-2018, 06:37 PM
should've been more of that type of thing i think,

sadmanbarty
14-03-2018, 06:40 PM
another excuse to post htis

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgwEPoku17k

Benny B
14-03-2018, 06:46 PM
Well there were some connections with broken beat (that signature apple clattery beat was ripped off wholesale from a bugz in the attic tune iirc, but it was originally built as a grime tune though) but I think its a mistake it frame it as funky making some kind of conscious effort to try and 'redeem' broken beat.

According to Marcus Nasty uk funky really became its own thing and got interesting when he went round a load of ex grime producers and badgered them into making house.

Benny B
14-03-2018, 06:46 PM
should've been more of that type of thing i think,

There was! Tons of it.

luka
14-03-2018, 06:47 PM
that's right. there's a kind of politesse encoded into broken beat. a notting hill idea of cool.
a restraint and a complacent suavity

Benny B
14-03-2018, 07:20 PM
that's right. there's a kind of politesse encoded into broken beat. a notting hill idea of cool.
a restraint and a complacent suavity

Yeah, i know next to nothing about broken beat tbh but I always got that impression. That plus the beats seem too wonky and awkward to dance to. But apart from a handful of isolated examples that worked in funky sets (Altered natives 'rass out' got battered by all the djs for one) broken beat basically had sweet FA to do with funky.

That said, I think it was owen griffiths posted a broken beat set live from forward years ago and I remember that being pretty vibey with a really lively crowd, so maybe its not totally irredeemable. Don't have it any more unfortunately.

luka
14-03-2018, 07:22 PM
ach! (lee fagan) plays a lot of it on his show.
http://www.dissensus.com/showthread.php?t=14126

Benny B
14-03-2018, 08:12 PM
ach! (lee fagan) plays a lot of it on his show.
http://www.dissensus.com/showthread.php?t=14126

was gonna stick this on but all the soundcloud links are dead

sadmanbarty
14-03-2018, 08:32 PM
Well there were some connections with broken beat (that signature apple clattery beat was ripped off wholesale from a bugz in the attic tune iirc, but it was originally built as a grime tune though) but I think its a mistake it frame it as funky making some kind of conscious effort to try and 'redeem' broken beat.

didn't actually think it was a conscious thing, i was just being poetic.


There was! Tons of it.

fair enough. now i can hold funky in the esteem my nostalgia's always wanted me to.

sadmanbarty
14-03-2018, 08:43 PM
and of course names like 67 (as i had explained to me on here) are literally about place

i had a mate caught up in all the gang stuff who said that the telephone code for tulse hill was 0208 67 etc. and that's where the name comes from. don't know if that's an urban legend.


drill doesn't seem to be as imaginatively removed from the streets as grime was - the aesthetic of the beats is sometimes dramatic, but in a quite restrained way ... it's a bit like comparing mobb deep to wu tang - in that mobb deep's music SOUNDS LIKE queensbridge streets, like rain-drenched (cliche cliche cliche), whereas Wu Tang's sounds like kung fu meets noir...

very cleaver comparison. wu tang and grime are cartoonish a lot of the time, musically and lyrically. tom and jerry style violence. all the bleak pianos in drill probably have a linage to mobb deep somewhere down the line.

trilliam
14-03-2018, 09:10 PM
https://soundcloud.com/perchmc/aaron-vybe-perch-mc-devastation-mix

bassbeyondreason
14-03-2018, 09:25 PM
all the bleak pianos in drill probably have a linage to mobb deep somewhere down the line.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3afuRKSqFCs

luka
14-03-2018, 09:32 PM
was gonna stick this on but all the soundcloud links are dead

oh yeah good point.
https://www.mixcloud.com/199Radio/170218-things-disappear-w-lkf/

trilliam
15-03-2018, 12:11 AM
https://soundcloud.com/deejay-b3/be-free-promo-mix-by-lee-b3-edwards-for-aqua-reunion-part-2-sun-6th-may-scala-kings-cross

owengriffiths
16-03-2018, 05:45 PM
The Co-Op live mix is still up
https://soundcloud.com/lost-tapes-from-the-attic/co-op-at-plastic-people-london

Hrdbldbbsnddrkchclt
16-03-2018, 06:38 PM
Well there were some connections with broken beat (that signature apple clattery beat was ripped off wholesale from a bugz in the attic tune iirc, but it was originally built as a grime tune though) but I think its a mistake it frame it as funky making some kind of conscious effort to try and 'redeem' broken beat.


Apple clatter was taken from this DKD track

https://youtu.be/fVS09se27Is





I always saw funky as the melding of broken beat and the grime demographic tbh

firefinga
20-03-2018, 07:35 PM
Also Continental (as in European, not UK) dance music essentially lobotomized both the US and UK scenes.

Trance won. We're all dead and in the balearic heaven.

As a "European" I gotta say that's an interesting take. In Europe however the - semi hip - dance people (those who still run clubs, throw parties, run labels etc) , or to be precise Germany, are still pushing minimal techno for over 20 years now. It's the stuff that clutters the dj-charts. So, from a continental point of view, minimal techno won. Although it's a pyrrhic victory.

firefinga
20-03-2018, 07:59 PM
I get bored and delete stuff all the time. I'll type it out again just for you.

When did it die?

2011

What killed it?

The internet

How did this happen?

The 'scene' migrated online and gradually splintered due to no longer being bound by or requiring specific geographical points of reference or real world interaction. The physical locations that acted as hubs - Blue Note, FWD, DMZ etc - were replaced by sites like Dubstepforum and Dubplate.net which only really lasted for a few years before everything became so sprawling and unfocused that the centre just sort of collapsed and everyone floated off in different directions, engaging with outside influences. These days people are either making house and techno or they're just rehashing jungle, garage, grime and dubstep.

The forums worked very well for roughly a decade as a centre of attraction - from ca 2003 - 2013, when people got on the net via broadband on their PCs/Laptops. Then you had a quick decline bc people moved over to social media on their smartphones. And you simply can't interact that well in such an environment regarding listening to music and/or exchange ideas about it. You have those forum producer folx still putting out music, but advertising it all on their social media accounts to nano audiences. "hardcore continuum" like scenes need a certain critical mass to work and I am very doubtful that the post 2012/13 environment of social media on your smartphone works that way.

thirdform
21-03-2018, 07:27 AM
As a "European" I gotta say that's an interesting take. In Europe however the - semi hip - dance people (those who still run clubs, throw parties, run labels etc) , or to be precise Germany, are still pushing minimal techno for over 20 years now. It's the stuff that clutters the dj-charts. So, from a continental point of view, minimal techno won. Although it's a pyrrhic victory.

dude maybe in hip circles but that dutch cheese merchant armin van buuren is playing saudi lmao.

+that huge dead mouse twat is basically flattened out trance for the 00s generation.

isn't prog house (posh trance) popular in india and south america among other places?

what about 00s kompakt, traum? indie trance that one!

then you have psy trance. another shade of revolting scene tho they have some interesting production ideas.

even roll deep did pop trance at the beginning of the 10s.

trance trap? experimental club? It's everywhere!

there was a hip label in house and techno to add to the list of trance tedium but i can't remember their name.

It's a crime. we will not be remembered fondly henceforth.

thirdform
21-03-2018, 07:32 AM
i still wanna quadruple drop and listen to cosmic gate exploration of space push strange world etc.

thirdform
21-03-2018, 07:36 AM
scary darkcore trance never happened did it.

firefinga
21-03-2018, 09:25 AM
dude maybe in hip circles but that dutch cheese merchant armin van buuren is playing saudi lmao.

+that huge dead mouse twat is basically flattened out trance for the 00s generation.

isn't prog house (posh trance) popular in india and south america among other places?

what about 00s kompakt, traum? indie trance that one!

then you have psy trance. another shade of revolting scene tho they have some interesting production ideas.

even roll deep did pop trance at the beginning of the 10s.

trance trap? experimental club? It's everywhere!

there was a hip label in house and techno to add to the list of trance tedium but i can't remember their name.

It's a crime. we will not be remembered fondly henceforth.

You are correct, I was referring to the "tasteful" hip circles (The "Bergheim" fraternity if you will). But then, Trance never was being covered by "serious" dance/music media. Which is kinda interesting bc it seems to be successful for 25 years now, even jumped on the "EDM" bandwagon. It's a bit like Gabba/HC-techno which still marches on and seems to gain popularity again even.

owengriffiths
21-03-2018, 10:47 AM
But then, Trance never was being covered by "serious" dance/music media

I would dispute that. 15 years ago Britain had around five dance music magazines and they all covered trance, some of the big superclubs like Gatecrasher or Cream played a lot of it so it would have been commercial suicide for journalists to ignore it. Nowadays there are only two magazines left and they cover trance, though the pendulum has swung and it is very much a distant junior partner of House. One thing the media pretended never existed was commercial dance, things like the clubland cds, Love Inc- Superstar. It's a bit of an irony how something commercial sounding and with the ability to do well financially was for some reason marginalized to an underground of sorts, and how something as underground and as much of a commercial no-hoper like early grime still managed to have a tv channel devoted to it when there were only five or so shops in the world where you could actually buy the product.

firefinga
21-03-2018, 11:12 AM
@owengriffiths,

I am referring to the situation in Germany (and austria) of course, there the "serious" media definitley totally ignored Trance. There was a little bit of coverage in the early 1990s with the success of the Frankfurt label "Harthouse" (run by still-jet-setting DJ Sven Všth). But generally the tone was (and still is), this ir rubbish, let's not touch it with a ten foot pole.

luka
28-04-2018, 01:04 PM
im sure this has been remarked on many times before but i was just thinking about how you could trace the changing concerns and priorities, the shifting gestalt, of the continuum, even with the sound muted, could trace it through fashion alone, and along all sorts of axes. most obviously perhaps the Blake Innocence-Experience axis with can be identified, to some extent with, variously,
Pleasure Principle/Reality Principle, per-pubescence/sexual maturity, Eden/the Fall, communion/separation, and so on and on ad infinitum.

or the way that what can be loosely referred to as 'hip-hop fashion' is virtually invisible, at best highly peripheral, until grime.

can zoom in on eras such as the casual revival at the tail end of the '90s, the reebok classics, designer jeans and polo shirts, that became a uniform for boys across all ethnic, though not all class, lines, and ask what they represent.

someone must have done a project on this in some way that goes beyond look at this wicked moschino retro-cool.

Dr Venom
30-04-2018, 11:34 AM
Regarding UK Drill.

What I find interesting about it is that it feels like, for the first time a local London scene incubation. Place and provenance is intrinsic to pre-internet subculture (possibly also class lines to a certain extent*) and the advent of the internet gave birth to the first truly post-subcultural forms of uk dance music i.e US/UK brostep.

Here is the thing, I feel like we might be returning to localised versions oddly. I think there is something to do with the re-localisation of networks. The internet has gotten so big, people are returning to small again. Drill is forming on closed social networks that are fast replacing Twitter etc for the gen Z:: Snapchat/ Whatsapp 'dark social'. You are more likely to converse with people from your local community than strangers on an open network.

This is parring with DSPs and streaming lacking that sense of broader community (piracy/file sharing is nothing without something similar to a music forum) makes me feel like these networks are closing off interaction and once again helping that incubation factor that the pirate/dubplate infrastructure that grime ukg etc used to thrive on. This is potentially exciting if you like London-centric music scenes. Also a side note on this, this dark social disconnect probably transposes to the generational/ community disconnect with Tory Brexit Britain blah blah blah.

For me I feel like you could draw a tenuous link from drill to grime, but I feel like the dial has been reset more than ever on the so called continuum, I'm not mainly into it for the cultural theory anyway.

I know this much, when I watch a Harlem Spartans video it makes those grime MCs dressed like beatniks, getting sucked off by gucci PRs all in bed with Apple Music look like embarrassing jungle uncles. I feel like the banality of the sonics and signalling reflects the stark reality of the MCs, but importantly the wordplay and lyricism is sharp as ever, and it is not akin to the banality of the US xanax rappers which I struggle to digest bar a few. I am aware majors are reluctant to touch it at the moment because of the knife crime/gang association but mark my words there is a future diamond in the rough of it all currently. Hearing Loski Cool Kid for the first time gave me similar chills to the first time I heard Wicked Skengman (not saying he is the guy).

I also love a video shot in a chicken shop.

*Note the Vice/hipster/chin-stroker's obsession with Liverpool donk house/then blackpool grime, localised subcultures that seemed to form in spite of internet 2.0.

luka
30-04-2018, 01:50 PM
it makes those grime MCs dressed like beatniks, getting sucked off by gucci PRs all in bed with Apple Music look like embarrassing jungle uncles.

the truth is the music industry has taught grime to sit up and beg.

luka
30-04-2018, 01:51 PM
it's a textbook case of how it happens.

luka
30-04-2018, 01:54 PM
broadly speaking there's 2 types of success
you either beg, make yourself in some way amenable to the powerful,
or you create something outside of that structure which is so big it cant be ignored.

luka
30-04-2018, 01:56 PM
(one reason ive never pursued publication is a ((possibly self0defeating)) ideological commitment that 2nd way of
breaking through.)

luka
30-04-2018, 01:57 PM
as ive said here before top-down culture is not culture, it's propaganda.

luka
30-04-2018, 01:58 PM
the new can only take shape outside of that power structure. that is the lesson of the hardcore continuum. it's also interesting to compare England and the US in this respect.

luka
30-04-2018, 02:12 PM
Here is the thing, I feel like we might be returning to localised versions oddly. I think there is something to do with the re-localisation of networks. The internet has gotten so big, people are returning to small again.

i agree and what i think (or perhaps just what i would like to believe) is that we are moving to a post-star firmament and a rejection of the entire celebrity edifice (which is sinister and bloated and decadent beyond all redemption). a return to people being involved in creating and not just consuming. microscenes.

luka
30-04-2018, 03:01 PM
although of course im sure we will always pay tribute to and enjoy
individuals of remarkable ability.

luka
30-04-2018, 03:02 PM
basically the prising away of culture from capitalism is what i think the endgame is
(woebot considers capitalism to be the main motor and driver of culture.)

luka
30-04-2018, 03:04 PM
so you recover the sense of culture as an exploration and an investigation and a quest, a shared and urgent enterprise,
our collective questioning of what exactly is going on here. our databank. everything. we wrestle that back from the bankrupt model of culture as product. that's finished. it's done.

luka
30-04-2018, 05:41 PM
given we need neither manufacture nor distribution it seems the obvious path to take.

trilliam
01-05-2018, 03:41 PM
hardcore continuum never dies, it's black music from ends, you lot didnt get it with deep tech either, ima type some shit when i get back but for now co-sign luka, lol @ at the drill posts

Corpsey
01-05-2018, 04:10 PM
This is the limitation of dissensus, a disastrous limitation - we're (by and large) so far removed as people from these cultures and movements, we have absolutely no understanding of them, we can only theorise

Reading that book about Southern Hip Hope wot Crowley recommended Shone light on this for me

CrowleyHead
04-05-2018, 04:12 PM
The interesting thing about Drill is that its obviously borrowed from American DNA which is the first time this has happened since y'all getting house/techno and hip-hop before that as imports.

I think that because a lot of hip-hop in the UK was traditionally absorbed through East Coast-centric sensibilities, there was never a genuine connection with southern-style (using real broadstroke terms here) production until this last generation of the Grime Nostalgia kida and the Drill movement. Its allowed for production to allow for slow pushes into these other directions that the US artists simply don't think of.

The other big movements were first funky and then eventually afrobeats which has now occasionally dovetailed with drill and you have a generation that has just an absolute comfort with this style and using it as a reference point. So I think perhaps the big issue as to why the nuum was dead for so long is that it requires the insertion of new concepts to cycle into the UK and then gestate into something more. That said it has to be organic because when Dissensian-like organisms such as the bloggers or the press try to insert something as The Obvious New Sound... it doesn't really work. For all the admirable musical qualities of say gqom or whichever, it can't be implemented from a position before the grassroots.

luka
04-05-2018, 04:24 PM
The interesting thing about Drill is that its obviously borrowed from American DNA which is the first time this has happened since y'all getting house/techno and hip-hop before that as imports.

I think that because a lot of hip-hop in the UK was traditionally absorbed through East Coast-centric sensibilities, there was never a genuine connection with southern-style (using real broadstroke terms here) production until this last generation of the Grime Nostalgia kida and the Drill movement. Its allowed for production to allow for slow pushes into these other directions that the US artists simply don't think of.

The other big movements were first funky and then eventually afrobeats which has now occasionally dovetailed with drill and you have a generation that has just an absolute comfort with this style and using it as a reference point. So I think perhaps the big issue as to why the nuum was dead for so long is that it requires the insertion of new concepts to cycle into the UK and then gestate into something more. That said it has to be organic because when Dissensian-like organisms such as the bloggers or the press try to insert something as The Obvious New Sound... it doesn't really work. For all the admirable musical qualities of say gqom or whichever, it can't be implemented from a position before the grassroots.

if you can loosely describe everything up until grime as a kind of opening up of dialogue with Jamacians on one hand and cockneys on the other then i think you can say everything after that is a dialogue between the West Indies and Africa. the music definitely codes more black than ever to put it as crassly and bluntly as possible.

and absolutely it has to be organic or its just novelty. it has to be the working out of real issues. whether social, formal or anything else

luka
04-05-2018, 04:28 PM
what i was saying, very tentatively and speculatively, about america when grime started is that it represents a 3rd blackness, a neutral zone and common point of reference.

CrowleyHead
04-05-2018, 08:12 PM
what i was saying, very tentatively and speculatively, about america when grime started is that it represents a 3rd blackness, a neutral zone and common point of reference.

It's true. It's essentially a several century old 'national identity' and as you can see from discourses and activity between those 3 groups, it's an uneasy umbrella to insist upon the shared bond sometimes. Which is ofc. the fault of non-black forces in the world but yeah.

There's also a thing where.... I don't want to be presumptive about the African influences on the nuum, and it's lofty of me to say it being non-black. BUT.... There were a lot of baggages for black people in the US to fully embrace House/Techno as their personal culture, based on maybe class lines? Does that exist in afrobeats? I don't know, nor is it my place to start scouring, but it'd be interesting to learn if its stauntly differing in this next wave we're indicating.

luka
04-05-2018, 08:26 PM
i dont know a thing about afrobeats. way out of my field. too old, too not african.
i cant overstate how much the landscape has shifted since i was young.
anything after 2004ish and I'm done as a first hand source really and truly.
trilliam and barty grew up in a different and vastly more cosmopolitan London.
Turks, Viets, Somalis, Eritreans, Gambians, Poles... when i grew up you were black,
white or asian pretty much and all three groups were roughly balanced in terms of
numbers in Newham.

sadmanbarty
04-05-2018, 08:58 PM
There were a lot of baggages for black people in the US to fully embrace House/Techno as their personal culture, based on maybe class lines? Does that exist in afrobeats?

the punters for afrobeats are more middle-class than drill. afrobeats was/is far more of an explicit cultural signifier than drill. it's functional in that sense; to a lot of people it's consciously a source of ethnic pride or at least a deliberate expression of ethnic identity, drill's a lot more organic than that.. also the music and the listeners are aspirational where drill is nihilistic and defeatist.

CrowleyHead
04-05-2018, 09:08 PM
I meant more of the people kind of exporting the music to the scene like... If you go to Ghana, is there a kind of perception of a person for listening to artists who have crossed over to the UK in any way? Like does Wizkid get you the :rolleyes:, I wouldn't know obv.

version
18-01-2019, 05:04 AM
https://blackdownsoundboy.blogspot.com/2018/12/roots-of-reflections.html

thirdform
18-01-2019, 05:25 PM
"I've written about this before but it's worth re-stating: what people think of "dubstep" right now is merely what became the most dominant of the many strains and style of music played at FWD."

Yeah well that's cultural nomadism in it. it's a journalistic consensus but it doesn't correspond to EG Spooky on Mode or Slimzee's new darkside sets or even Trends and Grandmixxer. Like you can jst say it's regurgitating past trends but that's a different debate. not to mention antisocial/deep medi/sicaria sound crews and on and on.

thirdform
18-01-2019, 05:34 PM
hardcore continuum never dies, it's black music from ends, you lot didnt get it with deep tech either, ima type some shit when i get back but for now co-sign luka, lol @ at the drill posts

Absolute fucking tosh, the nuum started in sheffield, the merger of reggae with house music. i say that as a proud londoner. this is not getting into all the midlands and Bristolian jungle, manchester grime and bassline/bass house.

And actually deep tech connects back to Sheffield. I hate that adage of things going round in circles but in this case its true. I just prefer the cavernous 3d design of Rob Gordon's engineered records though.

But go on, if we didn't get it with deep tech, ever so enlightened home counties man trying to pretend he's from ends, what happened to deep tech after 2014? It became identical to bait euro tech house.

Really the continuum as ontology was dead by 2007 anyway. Not that that is a bad thing just the way it is. now you have derivations and recombinations. whether that is good or bad is another debate.
As for drill, it kind of doesn't really occupy the same space because it is not premised on that initial merger. there are echoes of grime and jungle but those are an influence, not a driving force.

thirdform
18-01-2019, 05:47 PM
this is nuum. most of our people were still in hip hop or ragga. so-called 'acid house' was more properly balearic house for white leather trousers boys. hype plays quite a few of these records on old fantasy FM tapes.

https://www.mixcloud.com/sellbydave/bass-ment-jacks-bleep-history-mix-for-hivemindfm/

CrowleyHead
18-01-2019, 10:46 PM
You didn't even let man make his points lol. Had to rush in with the character assailment.

luka
19-01-2019, 08:16 PM
It's proto nuum in the way you could label any number of authors proto modernist in as much as they anticipate one or more aspect of modernism proper. Nuum beginning with the breakbeat in any meaningful sense.

luka
19-01-2019, 08:18 PM
I've met Trilliam and he's not from the home counties tbf. He's from Woolwich