PDA

View Full Version : Feminine Pressure



Pages : [1] 2

CORP$EY
08-03-2018, 11:10 AM
I've been thinking about starting a thread like this for a while but since it's International Women's Day today it seems apt to start it now.

The idea is a thread to highlight music written/performed by women, and also to discuss stuff relating to gender in music, such as representation in music, what differences (if any) there are between the music men produce and women create, and so on. And, as alluded to in the title, that notion (expounded upon by Simon Reynolds in e.g. the quote below) of music that women and men (generally) like/dislike, or that has 'masculine' and 'feminine' coding...


'Feminine Pressure is the name of an all-female Garage DJ crew. In a very real sense, UK Garage is organised around the pressure of feminine desire; a key factor in the scene’s emergence was when women defected en masse from the junglist dancefloor, fed up with the melody-and-vocal-devoid bombast of techstep. Two-step Garage bears the same relation to Jungle that lover’s rock did to dub reggae: it’s the feminised counterpart of a “serious” male genre. Like two-step, lover’s rock was a UK-spawned hybrid of silky US soul and Jamaican rhythm that restored treble to the bass-heavy frequency spectrum and replaced militant spirituality with romantic yearning. UK Garage pirate MCs send out shouts to couples cuddling at home (“or even engaged in horizontal activities”). The mic chat can get seriously lewd, in the beyond suggestive, explicit style of modern R&B; on one station I heard an MC rap “to the ladies, undo my zip/and you’ll find I’m well equipped”! There’s even a pirate station called Erotic FM.'

https://www.thewire.co.uk/in-writing/essays/the-wire-300_simon-reynolds-on-the-hardcore-continuum-series_6_two-step-garage_1999_

Obviously we're more or less a bunch of middle aged blokes so this could be an embarrassing failure - but it could also be an embarrassing success!

CORP$EY
08-03-2018, 11:28 AM
Found this interesting from a Gruniad article on the subject of female/male musical taste https://www.theguardian.com/music/2008/feb/20/popandrock.news

If we are to cautiously agree that women are more at ease with discussing emotions, and therefore more comfortable with the idea of embracing their emotional response to music, then it is logical to assume that the songs which aim for the emotional jugular might appeal more to women than to men. How else to explain James Blunt? This is not to say that men do not have an emotional response to music, rather that the emotion is expressed differently. In Nick Coleman's excellent article about how his partial hearing loss has affected his relationship with music, published in G2 yesterday, he wrote that he had always heard music three-dimensionally, architecturally: "I think music was the structure in which I learned to contain and then examine emotion." I would further suggest that the framework of music appreciation, the lists and the cataloguing, the trivia and the multiple copies of The Rise and Fall of Ziggy Stardust, gives men another kind of structure through which to examine their emotions.

The problem - and it is one exacerbated by Douglas's opposition of "emotional" and "intellectual" responses to music - is that there prevails a notion that to take anything other than a masculine, cataloguing approach to music is a weakness; that loving the way Bob Dylan sings the line "And I was standin' on the side of the road/ Rain fallin' on my shoes" in Tangled Up in Blue is somehow not as important as knowing where he recorded that song (his farm in Minnesota, in the winter of 1974) or countless other facts (that it was originally composed in the key of E, later changed to A, for example). I know these things, but they don't matter that much to me. Should a total recall of labels and recording studios and session musicians and chord changes really be described as "intellectual"? We might just as easily call it "clinical".

This rings true for me as a music nerd - it's a predominantly male word of knowledge acquisition and the competitive demonstration of superior taste. And in terms of how we talk about music, us nerds do tend to be more interested in structure and technique than emotion. Would also help explain the apparent female/male division on techstep, which aside from being extremely aggressive is also fairly monotonous, emotionally speaking. Or perhaps if women are more emotionally receptive, they feel the depressing bleakness of techstep's emotional register more vividly than men for whom it is simply quite a cool and aggressive sound.

john eden
08-03-2018, 12:00 PM
I think there's a risk of essentialising what women "are" and like... as if that is somehow innate.

Also a real risk of men talking about music which is made and DJed by men as if this is some kind of liberatory experience for women.

508

I went to this party and it was great. All the DJs were female. And they played the usual Dead by Dawn stuff like breakcore, speedcore and gabba. As usual there were a fair few women in the crowd also.

luka
08-03-2018, 12:06 PM
it's about a spectrum of experience stretched across the two poles of will and surrender with will coded as male and surrender coded as female.

luka
08-03-2018, 12:07 PM
"and please do remember,
people,
the inbreath is will
the outbreath,
surrender"

luka
08-03-2018, 12:08 PM
i wouldnt touch that guardian article with a bargepole.

CORP$EY
08-03-2018, 12:09 PM
Yes I agree - perhaps so risky that it's bound to shipwreck any such thread as this...

Wait til Jordan Peterson sees this thread. :eek:

CORP$EY
08-03-2018, 12:13 PM
I don't know what i was thinking creating this thread actually because its bound to turn into a 30 page argument like the its great when you're straight thread

I guess I was just interested in the recent shift I've noticed (perhaps illusory) towards female DJs in house/techno, and wondering if that will in terms of the music actually have an effect, or if it will be more or less the same music as before, only played by a healthy mix of men and women (which I'm all for before you feminazis get started)

luka
08-03-2018, 12:14 PM
no need to worry about eden's liberal palpitations if you adopt my objective schema.

luka
08-03-2018, 12:16 PM
also no need to use the terms male and female with my objective schema.

luka
08-03-2018, 12:17 PM
obviously both rely on the other. theres a biting point at the apex where the magic happens /\ that's like, the whole point of sex, and art and life and etc

john eden
08-03-2018, 12:18 PM
will coded as male and surrender coded as female.

Fuck's sake Luka. :crylarf:

luka
08-03-2018, 12:18 PM
too far towards either pole and its sterile, impotent

luka
08-03-2018, 12:20 PM
Fuck's sake Luka. :crylarf:

do you not understand? its not tricky i dont think? strictly about usage not about biology or ethics or anything else

CORP$EY
08-03-2018, 12:21 PM
Redemptive wordplay idea:

'FEMININE PRESSURE' = ALSO THE PRESSURE WOMEN FEEL TO BE FEMININE/MEN FEEL TO BE MASCULINE'

luka
08-03-2018, 12:22 PM
it's why you know perfectly well what is being implied by 'feminine pressure' or what is implied by any attempt to code music as masculine or feminine. becasue there are norms of usage.

luka
08-03-2018, 12:23 PM
im saving the thread from a very boring debate by providing poles which AVOID having to use male vs female.

luka
08-03-2018, 12:24 PM
a man can swoon after all. can sigh and flutter and enter into that domain of experience. and vice versa. it's about a geography of experience.

luka
08-03-2018, 12:25 PM
politics is boring. 'science' is boring.always better to return to the experience.

john eden
08-03-2018, 12:26 PM
do you not understand? its not tricky i dont think? strictly about usage not about biology or ethics or anything else

Except you fucked that up by coding active things male and submissive things female? :x:

luka
08-03-2018, 12:26 PM
if you take a generic hardcore tune there are alternating periods of will and surrender in a beautifully crude way. a stomping period and a hands in the air period where the beat falls out.

luka
08-03-2018, 12:27 PM
Except you fucked that up by coding active things male and submissive things female? :x:

i didnt. youre not paying attention.

john eden
08-03-2018, 12:28 PM
Carolyn Cooper's stuff on dancehall is better than all of this.

luka
08-03-2018, 12:29 PM
you could conceivably draw up a table of sounds and effects in two columns

john eden
08-03-2018, 12:29 PM
i didnt. youre not paying attention.

You literally did.

"will coded as male and surrender coded as female."

luka
08-03-2018, 12:29 PM
Carolyn Cooper's stuff on dancehall is better than all of this.

no idea what this is but id be willing to bet it's tedious.

luka
08-03-2018, 12:30 PM
You literally did.

"will coded as male and surrender coded as female."

yes but youre not following the argument becasue youre in contentious radio 4 liberal mode.

luka
08-03-2018, 12:31 PM
youve become mr tea from a very slightly different angle of approach.

luka
08-03-2018, 12:32 PM
instead of being mr tea why not plug the concept in and see what follows.

john eden
08-03-2018, 12:32 PM
no idea what this is but id be willing to bet it's tedious.

Yes a Jamaican woman writing about dancehall is going to a load of rubbish compared to a bunch of middle aged white blokes embarrassing themselves about "female pressure".

luka
08-03-2018, 12:33 PM
you are still missing the point/being mr tea.

john eden
08-03-2018, 12:34 PM
it's why you know perfectly well what is being implied by 'feminine pressure' or what is implied by any attempt to code music as masculine or feminine. becasue there are norms of usage.

The point is that these norms (and gender/sex norms generally) are being resisted. By feminists.

luka
08-03-2018, 12:35 PM
jesus christ. ban eden from the thread please.

luka
08-03-2018, 12:36 PM
male and female are not necessary for this becasue every human being has experiences at either end of the spectrum. contains both poles.

john eden
08-03-2018, 12:36 PM
you are still missing the point/being mr tea.

I'll have another go later on.

ETA - don't let me stop you chaps cracking on with this in the meantime though. :D

luka
08-03-2018, 12:38 PM
obviosuly a man does not switch off during the euphoric swooning sections of a hardcore tune and vice versa. that's not what im getting at at all. just that in hardcore you can very clearly see these two poles of affect. and i will simply ignore you if you try and deny this.

luka
08-03-2018, 12:41 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4_t6IwfaDY

please someone who is not eden tell me what i am saying is in no way contentious/is so obvious it shouldnt need spelling out.

luka
08-03-2018, 12:42 PM
cant beleive we've managed to aquire a radio 4 liberal version of mr tea.
its mental.

luka
08-03-2018, 12:43 PM
Happy International Women's Day! Blessed to have so many inspiring female role models and leaders in my life. Let's work towards a future where women can be free from ceilings, obstacles and limits.

luka
08-03-2018, 12:44 PM
Think like a queen. A queen is not afraid to fail. Failure is another steppingstone to greatness. - Oprah Winfrey
Happy International Womenís day 💝

CORP$EY
08-03-2018, 12:45 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4_t6IwfaDY

please someone who is not eden tell me what i am saying is in no way contentious/is so obvious it shouldnt need spelling out.

I think what eden might be missing is that you described the poles as being 'coded masculine/feminine' not as 'masculine/feminine'. I think eden thinks YOU'RE coding them (as in assigning them) masculine/feminine.

luka
08-03-2018, 12:47 PM
yes of course thats what hes doing and its a mr tea move.

CORP$EY
08-03-2018, 12:47 PM
Nah I deeply regret starting this thread

It's going to spiral and become a circle of hell

luka
08-03-2018, 12:48 PM
it's a reactive response to terminology that prevents actually reading what's written. again, classic tea.

luka
08-03-2018, 12:48 PM
corpsey can you understand what i have written and apply it to your experience of listening. yes or no?

luka
08-03-2018, 12:49 PM
dont be scared just say yes.

CORP$EY
08-03-2018, 12:51 PM
I think you're suggesting that music allows people to experience or reconcile themselves to states of being that are socially coded as being 'inappropriate' to their gender (/sex).

In other words, music allows us to experience (ideally without shame) the full gamut of human experience and temporarily suspend our social identities.

luka
08-03-2018, 12:52 PM
youre still talking politics.

luka
08-03-2018, 12:53 PM
but it's close enough i supose

CORP$EY
08-03-2018, 12:53 PM
Do I get at least a B+

CORP$EY
08-03-2018, 12:55 PM
well aesthetically you're saying that if music is too much about the will or too much about surrender its as boring as a room full of blokey blokes or girly girls

luka
08-03-2018, 12:55 PM
we experience all these things anyway. with or without music. it is the very fabric of existence. we are these feelings we are this movement across this terrain.

luka
08-03-2018, 12:56 PM
Do I get at least a B+

b for comprehension a for effort. evens out as b+

luka
08-03-2018, 12:58 PM
i feel i should take an e right now and listen to hardcore and really do a phenomenological investigation for you lot.

Mr. Tea
08-03-2018, 12:58 PM
instead of being mr tea why not plug the concept in and see what follows.

On the contrary, imagine the novel epistemic geographies that could be opened by a process of Becoming-Tea!

(BTW, has anyone got a good explanation for why this forum is easily the biggest sausage-fest in the history of the internet?)

luka
08-03-2018, 12:59 PM
eden is becoming-tea but dont derail my thread pls

CORP$EY
08-03-2018, 01:00 PM
and to drag things back down to politics for a second, these things are coded as they are because 'surrender' (on the male side) and 'will' (on the female side) is a threat to masculine dominance

(apologies to everyone else having to witness a chimp being taught about feminism)

BY GEORGE I HOPE I'VE GOT IT!

See what you've done is responded to a boring question with a more interesting one. PRICK.

luka
08-03-2018, 01:00 PM
eden is becoming-tea

stare into the abyss long enough

Mr. Tea
08-03-2018, 01:00 PM
eden is becoming-tea but dont derail my thread pls

YOUR thread! The very CHEEK.

CORP$EY
08-03-2018, 01:02 PM
Luka is a Jordan Peterson-esque superman who doesn't surrender to other peoples' thread ideas ;)

CORP$EY
08-03-2018, 01:03 PM
what i've particularly liked about dissensus lately is how every thread careens on and off topic for pages at a time

its freeform modal jazz, not be-bop

luka
08-03-2018, 01:03 PM
i was trying to save it from the very thing eden was trying to make it into!

luka
08-03-2018, 01:04 PM
you could see him champing at the bit. he didnt care what i said he just wanted to do that thing. i could see it coming as soon as i saw the thread title.

luka
08-03-2018, 01:08 PM
if you look at the descriptors in the original article you can see what's going on

https://www.thewire.co.uk/in-writing/essays/the-wire-300_simon-reynolds-on-the-hardcore-continuum-series_6_two-step-garage_1999_

surrender is liquid, lotion, moist. will is dry.

luka
08-03-2018, 01:09 PM
surrender is to swoon, to sigh, to moan. will is to grunt with effort. to bark an order.

luka
08-03-2018, 01:10 PM
i mean ffs

Mr. Tea
08-03-2018, 02:10 PM
Bit harsh when 4chan and watmm exist.

Slight hyperbole - out of parts of the internet I'm familiar with, I mean. Obviously 4chan is the OG boys-club troll pit. No idea what watmm is.

Still, when was the last time we had a woman posting here with any regularity? Unless you're one yourself?

Benny B
08-03-2018, 02:15 PM
and to drag things back down to politics for a second, these things are coded as they are because 'surrender' (on the male side) and 'will' (on the female side) is a threat to masculine dominance

(apologies to everyone else having to witness a chimp being taught about feminism)

BY GEORGE I HOPE I'VE GOT IT!

See what you've done is responded to a boring question with a more interesting one. PRICK.

This is spot on, corpsey.

We need new words for what luka is talking about is the thing.

sadmanbarty
08-03-2018, 02:39 PM
craner'll have a drink in a bit and save this thread as he delights us with the oedipal oeuvre

Benny B
08-03-2018, 02:45 PM
if you take a generic hardcore tune there are alternating periods of will and surrender in a beautifully crude way. a stomping period and a hands in the air period where the beat falls out.

Speaking very very generally here, but I guess a notable difference between hardcore & (the best) 2step is garage was deft at employing both simultaneously, in contrast to the crude switches of hardcore, at least the sort of tune you just described.

Not saying one approach is better than the other, but maybe garage tended to integrate the 2 extremes throughout the whole tune more.

sadmanbarty
08-03-2018, 02:56 PM
politically correct one for john:

it defies gender expectations; she's boastful, she's the initiator, she's in charge, she's reactive to his need. i suspect it was written for a bloke, then they added 'guys' instead of girls when she got it. cassie's the sigourney weaver of rnb.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSOtIHUJbjk

choons made by women (that happen to very neatly fit into luka's paradigm):

i'm ideologically opposed to cooly g, but this is gorgeous

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIbkC1NMM1k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9uLmF_RARs

luka
08-03-2018, 03:03 PM
We need new words for what luka is talking about is the thing.

you can use any word under the sun. they are placeholders for two poles. i was just making a non-contentious point about how they have been labelled for thousands of years.


509

luka
08-03-2018, 03:05 PM
this is all very basic stuff about how music works.

luka
08-03-2018, 03:06 PM
if you use sex as a model will and surrender move back and forth across partners. it is not static.

luka
08-03-2018, 03:06 PM
what is tension? the held breath.
what is surrender? the exhalation.

luka
08-03-2018, 03:09 PM
what is the straight line what is the curve?
why is Anna Livia Plurabelle a river?

sadmanbarty
08-03-2018, 03:10 PM
Why did Judas rat to Romans while Jesus slept?

luka
08-03-2018, 03:10 PM
what is 'tone of voice'?
why can information be abstracted from tone of voice?

luka
08-03-2018, 03:11 PM
what is the sound of an army marching in lockstep?
what is the sound of metal splintering bone?

luka
08-03-2018, 03:11 PM
how would you sing a lullaby?

luka
08-03-2018, 03:12 PM
how is threat encoded in sound?
as volume-the lions roar
as tension-the snakes hiss

surrender to violence
violence under will

sadmanbarty
08-03-2018, 03:13 PM
me and luka consoling corpse on our girls get together

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIszesDaK9U

luka
08-03-2018, 03:13 PM
move with
or
resist

luka
08-03-2018, 03:14 PM
this is all happening at the level of the body.
which is why i use the breath to explain it
the inbreath is will
the out breath is surrender.

luka
08-03-2018, 03:16 PM
liquid or solid. why is ALP a river. why is HCE a rock?

CORP$EY
08-03-2018, 03:16 PM
now urinating - feels like will but is actually surrender

sadmanbarty
08-03-2018, 03:16 PM
https://youtu.be/LP7RolWKl7c

exhaltation- breathy vocals

https://youtu.be/mIvqhZQDf0o

luka
08-03-2018, 03:16 PM
move with or resist.

))))))):love:(((((((

luka
08-03-2018, 03:17 PM
now urinating - feels like will but is actually surrender

this is one of the best examples. at last youre starting to think!

luka
08-03-2018, 03:17 PM
what is death?
the ultimate voiding of the bladder.

sadmanbarty
08-03-2018, 03:18 PM
now urinating - feels like will but is actually surrender

that's genius

CORP$EY
08-03-2018, 03:18 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0MK7qz13bU

sadmanbarty
08-03-2018, 03:19 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5J2_PJoDtw

sadmanbarty
08-03-2018, 03:19 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxPqkwahxe0

luka
08-03-2018, 03:21 PM
exhaltation- breathy vocals

right. exactly. why do sounds effect us the way they do?

luka
08-03-2018, 03:24 PM
please help me out here lads.

sadmanbarty
08-03-2018, 03:24 PM
exhaltation- breathy vocals

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpqqjU7u5Yc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STugQ0X1NoI

big boys don't cry

sadmanbarty
08-03-2018, 03:26 PM
please help me out here lads.

we're not as visionary as you so it's difficult.

all i will say is that a thread about femininity as an aesthetic delineator is more fun than one about people with vaginas

sadmanbarty
08-03-2018, 03:28 PM
surrender

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=20&v=e97294weda4

luka
08-03-2018, 03:30 PM
510

the head thrown back. the eyes closed. what sounds correspond to this?

sadmanbarty
08-03-2018, 03:30 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyAHULpMXKQ

luka
08-03-2018, 03:33 PM
JOHN EDEN ARE YOU LISTENING?

sadmanbarty
08-03-2018, 03:34 PM
reynolds was a talking head on some sky arts things a few years back (before i knew of him i think) and said that in the 80's you'd have hyper-emotional women or gay men singing over very cold, synthetic music.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DU-yXAXz4DI

sadmanbarty
08-03-2018, 03:40 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3A1wgB0qPZI

sadmanbarty
08-03-2018, 03:45 PM
my plan is that at 11 tonight we can all dissect craner's sexuality together. it's very rich, very contradictory; dates younger women but fetishises women his mother's age, he's the welsh james bond but there's a submissive quality to him, a chauvinist that venerates carly simon and stevie nicks. luka, trawl the archives.

luka
08-03-2018, 03:49 PM
very astute.

luka
08-03-2018, 04:16 PM
if you look at the descriptors in the original article you can see what's going on

https://www.thewire.co.uk/in-writing/essays/the-wire-300_simon-reynolds-on-the-hardcore-continuum-series_6_two-step-garage_1999_

surrender is liquid, lotion, moist. will is dry.

jittery, irregular, lip smacking lusciousness, juice, oozed, succulent, , highly textured, skippy, languorous frenzy, ear-tantalising panoply of textures: crunchy, squelchy, spangly, woody, spongy, scratchy, seductively sleek and springheeled, passion-plasma, a body without organs fluid, hypergasmic, honeycomb of blissful hiccups, burstingly rapturous, plaintive, tremulous, voluptuous melancholy, a paroxysm of hair-trigger blurts and stuttered spasms of passion, mellifluous and diabetically ultra-sweet, gamelan-tinkling , undulant, sultry menace, creamy warble, splinters of yearning, melt-in-your-mouth, sensuous indulgence, warm, organic texture, thick, succulent,

Benny B
08-03-2018, 04:26 PM
I think if you want to avoid boring old sexual politics (:rolleyes:) then the elements might serve better as comparisons than will and surrender which are sort of unavoidably political.

The woman in the klimt painting looks...uncomfortable

Mr. Tea
08-03-2018, 04:29 PM
I think if you want to avoid boring old sexual politics (:rolleyes:) then the elements might serve better as comparisons than will and surrender which are sort of unavoidably political.

Well carbon/silicon makes a certain amount of sense as a polar dichotomy but beyond that I'm a bit stumped. What 'gender' (in the [edit: I mean 'metaphysical'] sense) is potassium?

Benny B
08-03-2018, 04:33 PM
Well carbon/silicon makes a certain amount of sense as a polar dichotomy but beyond that I'm a bit stumped. What 'gender' (in the metaphorical sense) is potassium?

No I meant air, rock, ice, fire, water stuff like that :rolleyes:

Mr. Tea
08-03-2018, 04:37 PM
No I meant air, rock, ice, fire, water stuff like that :rolleyes:

YES I KNOW oh for heaven's sake, you could at least play along for a bit.

Benny B
08-03-2018, 04:40 PM
YES I KNOW oh for heaven's sake, you could at least play along for a bit.

Lolll, sorry, you are quite a literal guy though

Mr. Tea
08-03-2018, 04:40 PM
Still though, I propose that C/Si *is* a useful model. Soul, disco, funk, dub: carbon. Techno, any harsh or tech-y kind of d'n'b, EBM etc.: silicon. Of course, some genres (acid house? r'n'b?) may combine the two, or vary from one pole to another.

blissblogger
08-03-2018, 04:41 PM
some years ago I did a sort of sequel to the Feminine Pressure piece - called Masculine Pressure (although the real antonym would have been something like Masculine Armour versus Feminine Pressure)

http://energyflashbysimonreynolds.blogspot.com/2009/06/nuum-and-its-discontents-5-masculine.html

the gist of it was that there is an appeal to all these dominating, blaring, bombastic sounds and bad-boy gangsta soldier etc imagery to your pale cerebral young and not-so-young men - even though they've probably never handled a gun and possibly never been in a fight

and that appeal has been undeniable and recurrent part of the hardcore continuum lineage (along with its sources and tributaries like hip hop and dancehall)

i suppose it was a call to be un-embarrassed by this element, while also acknowledging that it is a tricky and problematic thing

for instance, grime - grime is great, but where do we locate the non-will, the surrender aspect in it? it seems to be almost entirely shot through with testosterone.

perhaps the surrender is there as a ghostly wistful quality in some of the sino-grime or certain things by the Ruff Sqwad have a melancholy languid quality

But anyway this long blog post starts with the irony of the debates at that time (this is about 2010) where you had bloke after bloke after bloke complaining about the blokeiness of dubstep - the macho, steroid-driven bombast of brostep and wobble - about clubs full of guys with their shirts off etc... and invoking the "feminine" as a sort of irrigating corrective, usually pointing to something wishy-washy like Joy Orbison (i.e. a supposedly more feminine sound, albeit made as it almost always was by a bloke) and claiming this sound, this would bring the girls back into the clubs.

And it was always men making this quasi-feminist argument, i found dozens of examples and i think just one voiced by a women (Ikonika, saying that a wobble-heavy set felt to her like a bukkake scene)

Slothrop
08-03-2018, 04:41 PM
No I meant air, rock, ice, fire, water stuff like that :rolleyes:
MCing, DJing, breakdancing, graffti :rolleyes:

blissblogger
08-03-2018, 04:46 PM
i like Luka's binary between will and surrender (it's the kind of breakdown of opposed culturally-coded elements that Joy and I would have done in our gender + music book The Sex Revolts)

but for me "feminine pressure" was always more of a force than that - it's a counter-force within a field of energies, some of which are coded masculine

a diva is a pretty formidable potency within music - even in the throes of sonic orgasm, it's more like an explosion than a melting

and even the softest elements in music (lyrical piano, string orchestrations, lush textures) can be the cruelest because they knock down your defences and open up your heart

no industrial or hardcore punk or noise record has ever made me cry, but "There Is A Light That Never Goes Out" or John Barry's theme to Walkabout or fleetwood mac's "Beautiful Child" can make me sob - so who is to say which is the more formidable and powerful piece of music?

Benny B
08-03-2018, 04:46 PM
some years ago I did a sort of sequel to the Feminine Pressure piece - called Masculine Pressure (although the real antonym would have been something like Masculine Armour versus Feminine Pressure)

http://energyflashbysimonreynolds.blogspot.com/2009/06/nuum-and-its-discontents-5-masculine.html

the gist of it was that there is an appeal to all these dominating, blaring, bombastic sounds and bad-boy gangsta soldier etc imagery to your pale cerebral young and not-so-young men - even though they've probably never handled a gun and possibly never been in a fight

and that appeal has been undeniable and recurrent part of the hardcore continuum lineage (along with its sources and tributaries like hip hop and dancehall)

i suppose it was a call to be un-embarrassed by this element, while also acknowledging that it is a tricky and problematic thing

for instance, grime - grime is great, but where do we locate the non-will, the surrender aspect in it? it seems to be almost entirely shot through with testosterone.

perhaps the surrender is there as a ghostly wistful quality in some of the sino-grime or certain things by the Ruff Sqwad have a melancholy languid quality

But anyway this long blog post starts with the irony of the debates at that time (this is about 2010) where you bloke after bloke complaining about the blokeiness of dubstep - the macho, steroid-driven bombast of brostep and wobble - about clubs full of guys with their shirts off * etc... and invoking the feminine as a sort of irrigating corrective, usually pointing to something wishy-washy like Joy Orbison and claiming this sound, this would bring the girls back into the clubs.

And it was always men making this quasi-feminist argument, i found dozens of example and i think just one voiced by a women (Ikonika, saying that a wobble-heavy set felt to her like a bukkake scene)

Thankfully around that time uk funky was popping off so you didnt have to bother will all that wishy washy post dubstep stuff

luka
08-03-2018, 04:54 PM
you lot acting like i just invented the concept of active and passive poles and you have to fight against it before this dangerous idea takes hold

511

delibidinised me so badly i think im guna have to top myself

luka
08-03-2018, 05:01 PM
i like Luka's binary between will and surrender (it's the kind of breakdown of opposed culturally-coded elements that Joy and I would have done in our gender + music book The Sex Revolts)

but for me "feminine pressure" was always more of a force than that - it's a counter-force within a field of energies, some of which are coded masculine

a diva is a pretty formidable potency within music - even in the throes of sonic orgasm, it's more like an explosion than a melting

and even the softest elements in music (lyrical piano, string orchestrations, lush textures) can be the cruelest because they knock down your defences and open up your heart

no industrial or hardcore punk or noise record has ever made me cry, but "There Is A Light That Never Goes Out" or John Barry's theme to Walkabout or fleetwood mac's "Beautiful Child" can make me sob - so who is to say which is the more formidable and powerful piece of music?

i dont accept that this runs counter to my schema. what is a river? why is ALP a river?

Mr. Tea
08-03-2018, 05:04 PM
^nice subliminal Black Sun

luka
08-03-2018, 05:41 PM
i get it. you lot feel i am willing a way of thinking onto you and becasue of your stereotyped retrograde ideas of gender roles you feel it would be unmanly to surrender to it and are therefore resisting.

luka
08-03-2018, 05:42 PM
will and surrender which are sort of unavoidably political.

well clearly this maps onto politics as the ultimate political expression of will is fascism. it also maps onto the politics of the self.

luka
08-03-2018, 05:43 PM
think of the rhetoric of bodybuilding and how that applies to the politics of the self.

luka
08-03-2018, 05:46 PM
i dont accept that this runs counter to my schema. what is a river? why is ALP a river?

why did i post this? what is this?

512

sadmanbarty
08-03-2018, 05:58 PM
appropriately this thread is divided between, on the one hand, the rigid, boundaried, literalist, inflexible and on the other hand the open, fluid, abstract, subjective, interpreting, etc.

luka
08-03-2018, 05:59 PM
:fire::fire::fire::fire:gunshot emoji

sadmanbarty
08-03-2018, 06:02 PM
in the intro jungle exhales. the masculine music; built on harsh, angular, shrill, propulsive breaks is transformed. the drums evaporate. surrender into vaporous echoes. the low pass filter- jungle through the womb.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSu5nAQ7uZw

sadmanbarty
08-03-2018, 06:07 PM
nerds vs aesthetes

luka
08-03-2018, 06:08 PM
law vs love

luka
08-03-2018, 06:09 PM
boring people vs us lot

sadmanbarty
08-03-2018, 06:12 PM
two competing ideas of the future. one clinical, one with humanity. one about how sex and violence and love and dancing and sentimentality interact with increased technological advancement, the other is, at its heart, music about touchscreen worktops and floating cars.

,

luka
08-03-2018, 06:14 PM
you cant pick sides. its the way you're born. a lover or a boring grey cunt.

sadmanbarty
08-03-2018, 06:15 PM
you either like d beat or don't know what it is

sadmanbarty
08-03-2018, 06:18 PM
my plan is that at 11 tonight we can all dissect craner's sexuality together. it's very rich, very contradictory; dates younger women but fetishises women his mother's age, he's the welsh james bond but there's a submissive quality to him, a chauvinist that venerates carly simon and stevie nicks. luka, trawl the archives.


Excellent comparison, I love Soubry! Massive pro-EU warrior, big supporter of Citizens Advice, foreign policy internationalist, and has sexy eyes.


258

oliver, oliver, never before has a boy wanted more

luka
08-03-2018, 06:21 PM
philsophy (losers) vs poets

Benny B
08-03-2018, 06:24 PM
Ftr luka, i'm not even disagreeing with you. I just think will and surrender suggest (maybe just to me, not you, but I also get this vibe off the klimt painting) dominance and submission between two essentially seperate entities. The yin yang thing I think describes what I think you're on about perfectly though. The undivided one.

Its good stuff anyway, carry on :)

luka
08-03-2018, 06:40 PM
between two essentially seperate entities

i thought id been very clear, deliberately so, that this happens at the level of the individual body and when it's interpersonal it plays back and forth between partners.

luka
08-03-2018, 06:41 PM
you cant pick sides. its the way you're born. a lover or a boring grey cunt.

corpsey is one of us but he doesnt know it yet. hes like the librarian romantic lead who hasnt taken off his glasses and unpinned his hair yet.

Benny B
08-03-2018, 06:53 PM
i thought id been very clear, deliberately so, that this happens at the level of the individual body and when it's interpersonal it plays back and forth between partners.

Yeah you were and I reckon understand exactly what you were on about, I was just commenting on why confusion creeps in through some of the examples/language you used. Don't worry, i'm not about to derail your thread with politics

luka
08-03-2018, 06:54 PM
513

sadmanbarty
08-03-2018, 07:01 PM
droid's sex playlist

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kO6BtpIzIiM

sadmanbarty
08-03-2018, 07:04 PM
benny after a few drinks

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7q3PxD__VA

sadmanbarty
08-03-2018, 07:21 PM
))))))):love:(((((((

514

luka
08-03-2018, 07:23 PM
fucking hell!

Mr. Tea
08-03-2018, 07:25 PM
I don't think this flimsy material world was made for expressions of the primal Erotic that raw and pure.

PHWOOAAAAR!!!!

Corpsey
08-03-2018, 07:33 PM
LOL

sadmanbarty
08-03-2018, 07:34 PM
https://youtu.be/4SaHeKqkC6c

515

luka
08-03-2018, 10:36 PM
oh well at least i had a crack at it
:confused:

sadmanbarty
08-03-2018, 11:04 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6fHTyVmYp4

sadmanbarty
09-03-2018, 01:27 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdJyLJMaQMY

CrowleyHead
09-03-2018, 02:17 AM
corpsey is one of us but he doesnt know it yet. hes like the librarian romantic lead who hasnt taken off his glasses and unpinned his hair yet.

If Corpsey is Susan Sarandon in Witches of Eastwick, does this make you Nicholson?

CrowleyHead
09-03-2018, 02:23 AM
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/4IKddfxkDWk" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/ZI7KVV13PTY" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

:*

CrowleyHead
09-03-2018, 02:40 AM
The inherent problem here is what is deemed masculine/feminine in binaries is often enforced to be gendered and has often followed such logistics. Cinematically the motion is the phallic action thrust and the background is the passive recipient. Cue that one scene from Nosferatu w/ the ship coming in and disrupting the still image with its front, a giant "SUP LADIES" of intent. Its however inconvenient to simply affiliate these attributes to the Gender, as much as they've been coralled into the Genders. The language is a bunch of bundles that have in many ways been weaponized, which is why Luka and Eden are having their row. Hell, fucking Dissensus is sadly a hypermasculine place of ideas so we'd never get to a better position either.

But yes, how do you determine to whom the behaviors of the wilt and of the force belong to? Because exceptions exist.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/VyAHULpMXKQ" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/mZM-d2qD15E" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I'm coming up with a lot of examples of this disparity that sonically go away from the material that inspires it within Garage b/c we're dealing with a lot of inhuman sounds and the problem there is that what is the gendering of sound. Duke Ellington said "The Drum is a Woman", but people presume the melodic is the feminine, so where is the reality? How many great male rave vocalists were there, or samples? And by that right how many great MASCULINE vocal performances were used.

A rap writer on twitter recently whined about "All the men are singers now and all the women are rappers" w/r/t rap in 2018 which is funny because

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/5eixJgD0OLU" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/W-yxA-ODrFE" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

in certain respects its true.

So we really can't say what in say, garage is inherently feminine. Those drums might be masculine presences to some but feminine presences to others, and likewise for bass or for samples or whatever.

john eden
09-03-2018, 07:21 AM
Yeah you were and I reckon understand exactly what you were on about, I was just commenting on why confusion creeps in through some of the examples/language you used. Don't worry, i'm not about to derail your thread with politics

Yeah thatís good. Also dialectics where opposites combine to make a new better thing.

luka
09-03-2018, 10:11 AM
So we really can't say what in say, garage is inherently feminine. Those drums might be masculine presences to some but feminine presences to others, and likewise for bass or for samples or whatever.

it's hard to escape from the subjective yes. as i have kept saying and saying and saying masculine and feminine is how these binaries have traditionally been coded for obvious reasons but to take that too literally will get you into trouble.

it's why i was very eager to avoid the discussion slipping into those areas. because it's idiotic.

however, we usually think of hard as being the opposite of soft. we think of dry as the opposite of wet. we think of loud as the opposite of quiet. rough as the opposite of smooth. the curve as the opposite of the straight line. and so on and so forth.

i'm not dreaming up some mad idea out of thin air.

luka
09-03-2018, 10:14 AM
and that when people talk about tunes being girly, or to coin a phrase, about feminine pressure, these are the kinds of ways they are thinking about it. not all binaries fit into this structure. for instance fast and slow do not.

luka
09-03-2018, 10:16 AM
and although reynolds was eager to distance himself from his own construct ("but but i meant females are fierce. like warriors!")
a look at the descriptors in the article will show you what is going on. but he didnt make it up either. its been around for thousands of years and across cultural and geographic boundaries.

luka
09-03-2018, 10:19 AM
which is hardly suprising given the amount of dualities we see naturally occuring. our own bodies are roughly symmetrical for instance. an arm and a leg and an eye on each side. of course not everything falls into twos and im not claiming it does.

CORP$EY
09-03-2018, 10:22 AM
at the risk of stumbling headfirst back into the cringe pit

i still wonder

why did women leave the jungle dancefloors and flock to the garage dancefloors? (i've seen this said quite a lot by ppl who were there at the time, i'm taking it on pure faith cos i wasn't there)

social conformity (vs. repressed taste)? an aggressive/threatening atmosphere?

did the hard/dark techstep drum n bass help men feel more like 'men' and make women feel less like 'women'?

luka
09-03-2018, 10:23 AM
at the risk of stumbling headfirst back into the cringe pit

i still wonder

why did women leave the jungle dancefloors and flock to the garage dancefloors? (i've seen this said quite a lot by ppl who were there at the time, i'm taking it on pure faith cos i wasn't there)

social conformity (vs. repressed taste)? an aggressive/threatening atmosphere?

did the hard/dark techstep drum n bass help men feel more like 'men' and make women feel less like 'women'?

yes because it was shit is probably the right answer.

luka
09-03-2018, 10:24 AM
bartys just deleted his reply but that's what it said. "becasue it was shit"

CORP$EY
09-03-2018, 10:25 AM
so more women have good taste than men?

sadmanbarty
09-03-2018, 10:26 AM
oi corpse, me saying 'cause it's shit' doesn't warrant an anthropological dissertation.

luka
09-03-2018, 10:30 AM
i remember in 98 or 99 going, on consecutive days, to a drum and bass, and then a garage night, round the corner from one another
and the difference in crowd was enormous. world dance was at stratford rex and it was almost entirely a suburban shipped in crowd and almost 100% white. it was very mechanical in its responses and all excitement was situated around the drop at which point lighters went up and shouts rang out in a very pavlovian way.

(there was garage in the basement luckily)

sheek 'n sexy was a short walk away on at what was then either club space or club eq and that crowd was seemed a little younger and was almost 100% black and mostly local. the music was better.

sadmanbarty
09-03-2018, 10:32 AM
that 'when we make love, come in to me' is archetypal feminine pressure to me. sonically it's actually very tough; angular rhythm, buzzy bass, but there's something so immersive about it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgwEPoku17k

CORP$EY
09-03-2018, 10:34 AM
actually it occurs to me that when i went to frequency for the deep tech night it was a similar crowd to what you're describing with the garage night - and there were loads of girls there

and deep tech around that time (radford, lance morgan, carnao beats et al) 'on paper' was coded very masculine - dark, stripped-back, spartan, even...

sadmanbarty
09-03-2018, 10:35 AM
it was very mechanical in its responses and all excitement was situated around the drop at which point lighters went up and shouts rang out in a very pavlovian way.

has anyone paralleled the fetishisation of the drop as a proxy of men's climax driven sexuality compared to women's whole journey sexuality?

luka
09-03-2018, 10:35 AM
social conformity (vs. repressed taste)? an aggressive/threatening atmosphere?

did the hard/dark techstep drum n bass help men feel more like 'men' and make women feel less like 'women'?

i do think these things are far too reductive/boring. it's like how a guardian journalist would frame it.

luka
09-03-2018, 10:35 AM
has anyone paralleled the fetishisation of the drop as a proxy of men's climax driven sexuality compared to women's whole journey sexuality?

you just have!

sadmanbarty
09-03-2018, 10:37 AM
actually it occurs to me that when i went to frequency for the deep tech night it was a similar crowd to what you're describing with the garage night - and there were loads of girls there

and deep tech around that time (radford, lance morgan, carnao beats et al) 'on paper' was coded very masculine - dark, stripped-back, spartan, even...

i wasn't surprised so much by the girls, but at how black deep tech was. and also how ubiquitous it was for a bit.

sadmanbarty
09-03-2018, 10:38 AM
you just have!


my whole life is me discovering all the brilliant shit i've come up with has already been done by cleaver blokes 20 years ago.

that's why i proceed with caution

CORP$EY
09-03-2018, 10:40 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-xi3KHf1pU

luka
09-03-2018, 10:40 AM
one of the things reynolds points out in the original article is that its all boys complaining the music is too male. this doesnt map onto the actual taste and desires of male and female in any reductive 1 to 1 way. stop trying to do it corpsey!

luka
09-03-2018, 10:41 AM
you dont have to worry about ideas being original you just want ones which work and the drop as cum shot obviously works.

sadmanbarty
09-03-2018, 10:43 AM
luka your concept of 'masculine' and 'feminine' being proxies for a set of aesthetic qualities and not about boys and girls is a novel and incomprehensible one. nobody has ever spoke in those terms before. it is literally beyond our cognitive capacities to understand.

sadmanbarty
09-03-2018, 10:43 AM
you dont have to worry about ideas being original you just want ones which work and the drop as cum shot obviously works.

10 years after it was relevant, but i'll take it. delayed gratification.

luka
09-03-2018, 10:44 AM
id love for that to be true barty, you know i would. but sadly, its not. :(

CORP$EY
09-03-2018, 10:56 AM
"Our continuous effort to keep ourselves balanced upright on our legs affects every judgment on design. The disposition of areas in the torso is related to our most vivid experiences, so that abstract shapes, the square and the circle, seem to us male and female, and that the old endeavor of magical mathematics to square the circle is like the symbol of physical union."

sadmanbarty
09-03-2018, 10:56 AM
there we go

sadmanbarty
09-03-2018, 10:57 AM
although points have to be taken away for googling it and quoting someone.

CORP$EY
09-03-2018, 11:00 AM
I remembered it from a book wot I read and I looked up a quote from said book online

The book in question is 'The Nude' by Kenneth Clark and it's a treasure trove

sadmanbarty
09-03-2018, 11:03 AM
516

CORP$EY
09-03-2018, 11:05 AM
Big jazz man isn't he

luka
09-03-2018, 11:06 AM
jazz and pints. exemplifies the ideal craner aspires to

luka
09-03-2018, 11:07 AM
albeit craner has his eurotrash dimension

sadmanbarty
09-03-2018, 11:09 AM
the thread before and after luka saved it

517

518

Mr. Tea
09-03-2018, 11:10 AM
has anyone paralleled the fetishisation of the drop as a proxy of men's climax driven sexuality compared to women's whole journey sexuality?

This seems deeply suspicious - women, IME, are just as keen on having an orgasm as an end in itself as men are (or at least, as I am). In any case, this whole ridiculous ersatz-rave 'EDM' scene that's blown up in the states in the last howevermany years seems to be centred rather obsessively around 'the drop', to the extent of it becoming a bit of a joke (
https://youtu.be/XCawU6BE8P8), and it seems to be pretty popular with women, at least as far as I can tell.

luka
09-03-2018, 11:10 AM
CORP$EY

"Our continuous effort to keep ourselves balanced upright on our legs affects every judgment on design. The disposition of areas in the torso is related to our most vivid experiences, so that abstract shapes, the square and the circle, seem to us male and female, and that the old endeavor of magical mathematics to square the circle is like the symbol of physical union."

519

sadmanbarty
09-03-2018, 11:11 AM
This seems deeply suspicious - women, IME, are just as keen on having an orgasm as an end in itself as men are (or at least, as I am).

sid viscous

luka
09-03-2018, 11:11 AM
no offence tea but i dont think youve quite figured out the rules of this game yet.

CORP$EY
09-03-2018, 11:15 AM
kick drums = pelvic thrusts
snare drums = sweaty shoulder flexing
hi hats = cunnulinguial flicking of the tongue

discuss

luka
09-03-2018, 11:16 AM
520

i bring you flowers-sweet female attitude

CORP$EY
09-03-2018, 11:16 AM
'one for the sexy foxy ladies'

CORP$EY
09-03-2018, 11:17 AM
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/XZDFm7bdT5E/hqdefault.jpg

sadmanbarty
09-03-2018, 11:23 AM
keen on having an orgasm

,

sadmanbarty
09-03-2018, 11:25 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oextk-If8HQ

Mr. Tea
09-03-2018, 11:25 AM
sid viscous

Can you expand on that?

I mean, I assume that by 'men' you meant men and by 'women' you meant women, as opposed to an arbitrary shorthand for some abstract binary opposites.

luka
09-03-2018, 11:27 AM
think he was alluding to the viscosity of cum. its a joke.

droid
09-03-2018, 11:30 AM
That page of swamp thing is the only good thing in this thread.

luka
09-03-2018, 11:31 AM
its a bit over your head droid. but theres other threads you can contribute to.

mistersloane
09-03-2018, 11:32 AM
obviosuly a man does not switch off during the euphoric swooning sections of a hardcore tune

i do

luka
09-03-2018, 11:33 AM
i do

theres always a contrarian in every room.

luka
09-03-2018, 11:33 AM
do you though? they just dont work on you?

luka
09-03-2018, 11:34 AM
it's really just a button most people have that gets pressed.

sadmanbarty
09-03-2018, 11:35 AM
That page of swamp thing is the only good thing in this thread.

what about my thing about dido and jungle?

CORP$EY
09-03-2018, 11:35 AM
weird how all these recent threads are converging in my mind cos i'm now thinking of slothrop's comment on hardcore how everything was for a brief time held in a sort of balance - and i think that's true, that the 'masculine' and 'feminine' were both there in almost equal measure

droid
09-03-2018, 11:37 AM
I dont think Ive ever felt such despair about the future of Dissensus.

luka
09-03-2018, 11:38 AM
That page of swamp thing/ is the only good thing/ in this thread.

14 syllables in this sentence. falling into three phases. the first with 5 beats, the second is 6, the final is 3. what time signature is that?

mistersloane
09-03-2018, 11:39 AM
510

the head thrown back. the eyes closed. what sounds correspond to this?

Easy. Next.<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/746uWZseUTk" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

luka
09-03-2018, 11:40 AM
That page of swamp thing/ is the only good thing/ in this thread.

14 syllables in this sentence. falling into three phases. the first with 5 beats, the second is 6, the final is 3. what time signature is that?

some kind of tresillo?

mistersloane
09-03-2018, 11:41 AM
515

Genius, and kinda hot

droid
09-03-2018, 11:44 AM
That page of swamp thing/ is the only good thing/ in this thread.

14 syllables in this sentence. falling into three phases. the first with 5 beats, the second is 6, the final is 3. what time signature is that?

Oddly enough its precisely the same time signature of this ongoing all consuming self-referential circle jerk. You can set your watch to it - if you could keep your hand still long enough.

luka
09-03-2018, 11:46 AM
:gun::cool:
someones got up on the wrong side of bed! what direction would you like to see the forum moving in? lets have a positive contribution and perhaps we can accomodate your suggestions.

sadmanbarty
09-03-2018, 11:46 AM
Oddly enough its precisely the same time signature of this ongoing all consuming self-referential circle jerk. You can set your watch to it - if you could keep your hand still long enough.

zing

sadmanbarty
09-03-2018, 11:47 AM
:gun::cool:
someones got up on the wrong side of bed! what direction would you like to see the forum moving in? lets have a positive contribution and perhaps we can accomodate your suggestions.

that's genuinely an interesting question. go on droid answer it properly

droid
09-03-2018, 11:53 AM
I dont think I need to spell it out.

Ive been here since the beginning, through thick and thin, Ive seen every shade of trolling, bullying, hissyfit, condescension and nonsense so if even Im losing patience then I would suggest there's an issue here.

luka
09-03-2018, 11:55 AM
we all do our best to accomodate you. its not always easy. but we do.

sadmanbarty
09-03-2018, 11:57 AM
trolling, bullying, hissyfit, condescension and nonsense

you're the only one on this thread doing any of those things. we were all having a nice time till you showed up.

luka
09-03-2018, 11:57 AM
and it's interesting that for most contributors this is the most engaging the forum has been in many years.
so your dissension is interesting. we've got new members. old members coming back. a far greater
frequency of posts. its a revival.

mistersloane
09-03-2018, 11:59 AM
do you though? they just dont work on you?

They bore me. I understand them and obviously like ...stuff...but I always saw the need for "euphoric" breaks as just aesthetic weakness. I like being pummelled by sound, I like genuinely being fucked by sound, by cinema, aesthsexuality, the ability to be fucked by an aesthetic experience. I always saw all the "breakdown" stuff as just people not being able to take it, stupid straight people who couldn't deal with an hour of anything being full on without glassing people (men and women equally guilty). Then that got translated into culture as a whole. I remember taking my nephew to Papa Roach gigs and seeing bouncers in the crowd, people being unable to police their damn selves in their damn entertainment. It's about not being able to give yourselves over. Not being able to be well and truly fucked. I don't blame you for it. It's not your fault. I suggest all of you get fucked.

Irigaray I think is the person who would be good to call to this thread, or for people to read, she always seemed like she was well into bass music, and the internalised phallus and comics probably.

luka
09-03-2018, 12:01 PM
They bore me. I understand them and obviously like ...stuff...but I always saw the need for "euphoric" breaks as just aesthetic weakness. I like being pummelled by sound, I like genuinely being fucked by sound, by cinema, aesthsexuality, the ability to be fucked by an aesthetic experience. I always saw all the "breakdown" stuff as just people not being able to take it, stupid straight people who couldn't deal with an hour of anything being full on without glassing people (men and women equally guilty). Then that got translated into culture as a whole. I remember taking my nephew to Papa Roach gigs and seeing bouncers in the crowd, people being unable to police their damn selves in their damn entertainment. It's about not being able to give yourselves over. Not being able to be well and truly fucked. I don't blame you for it. It's not your fault. I suggest all of you get fucked.

Irigaray I think is the person who would be good to call to this thread, or for people to read, she always seemed like she was well into bass music, and the internalised phallus and comics probably.

that does seem a little one dimensional though? just the same level of intensity and the same range of affect without end?

luka
09-03-2018, 12:02 PM
that does seem a little one dimensional though? just the same level of intensity and the same range of affect without end?

i mean arent you just describing gabba as your ideal music? which is fair enough.

luka
09-03-2018, 12:07 PM
but for most people i think it quickly reaches what reynolds called the zone of fruitless intensification.

luka
09-03-2018, 12:10 PM
at a certain point numbness kicks in. like drinking till you black out. there's a limit.

droid
09-03-2018, 12:12 PM
and it's interesting that for most contributors this is the most engaging the forum has been in many years.
so your dissension is interesting. we've got new members. old members coming back. a far greater
frequency of posts. its a revival.

No, we dont have new members showing up - in fact when the last new members left, one of the reasons he gave was the increasingly incestuous nature of this place - granted he didnt cover himself in glory, but he had a point.

Pretty much every single thread now instantly descends into some kind of group therapy/agony aunt/in joke meta wank fest. Its been that way to a degree for a few years but it's really getting out of hand now, instead of asides every few pages and at the bottom of posts its now the dominant theme. Perhaps this is engaging, but I would suggest its mainly engaging to the instigators.

This is not a revival, its the increased scrabbling of fingernails on the porcelain during the slide down the drain. New members (a slim hope to begin with) are not going to be attracted by 10 pages of gnomic in-jokes and gifs for every 2 posts of content. There is a balance to be struck.

Corpsey does try though, bless him.

droid
09-03-2018, 12:13 PM
Not that I don't see what you've been trying to do, and its been successful up to a point, but:


i think it quickly reaches what reynolds called the zone of fruitless intensification.

luka
09-03-2018, 12:16 PM
No, we dont have new members showing up - in fact when the last new members left, one of the reasons he gave was the increasingly incestuous nature of this place - granted he didnt cover himself in glory, but he had a point.

Pretty much every single thread now instantly descends into some kind of group therapy/agony aunt/in joke meta wank fest. Its been that way to a degree for a few years but it's really getting out of hand now, instead of asides every few pages and at the bottom of posts its now the dominant theme. Perhaps this is engaging, but I would suggest its mainly engaging to the instigators.

This is not a revival, its the increased scrabbling of fingernails on the porcelain during the slide down the drain. New members (a slim hope to begin with) are not going to be attracted by 10 pages of gnomic in-jokes and gifs for every 2 posts of content. There is a balance to be struck.

Corpsey does try though, bless him.

the personalisation has probably gone a bit far and i agree we should maybe rein it in a bit but that old welsh man was a psycho.
thridform and version are new arent they? or old people in new clothes?

droid
09-03-2018, 12:18 PM
Verison is a newbie, Third Form has been around a couple of years.

luka
09-03-2018, 12:22 PM
i still dont know why youre attacking this thread though when i made a concerted effort over several pages to explicate an idea. you might think it's a stupid idea but it's still an idea rather than being mean to craner/tea/droid whatever.

luka
09-03-2018, 12:23 PM
it wasnt in-jokey or incestuous in the slightest.

Mr. Tea
09-03-2018, 12:25 PM
i mean arent you just describing gabba as your ideal music? which is fair enough.

Were you not paying attention in the questionnaire thread? He likes METAL.

luka
09-03-2018, 12:33 PM
like if you were to say we need to call a moratorium on all this personalisation stop teasing corpsey and craner theyre gentle souls and they dont fight back and its a bit over the top and can you stop calling me an affectless robot i would say ok yeah its getting in the way we should rein it in but i dont get why im not allowed to talk about the yin and the yang and like, the universal duality of life?

luka
09-03-2018, 12:34 PM
or is it cos i got annoyed with john eden for trying to pounce on me?
THATS WHERE YOU FUCKED UP
i think was the phrase.

john eden
09-03-2018, 12:35 PM
like if you were to say we need to call a moratorium on all this personalisation stop teasing corpsey and craner theyre gentle souls and they dont fight back and its a bit over the top and can you stop calling me an affectless robot i would say ok yeah its getting in the way we should rein it in but i dont get why im not allowed to talk about the yin and the yang and like, the universal duality of life?

Nobody is telling anyone else to do anything. But Droid is right.

Mr. Tea
09-03-2018, 12:36 PM
the personalisation has probably gone a bit far and i agree we should maybe rein it in a bit but that old welsh man was a psycho.


Hey come on, Craner is a cherished long-serving member of this community!

Mr. Tea
09-03-2018, 12:37 PM
Oh...


in joke meta wank fest.

:o

luka
09-03-2018, 12:39 PM
Nobody is telling anyone else to do anything. But Droid is right.

and yet you called mr tea a cunt just the other day.

john eden
09-03-2018, 12:40 PM
or is it cos i got annoyed with john eden for trying to pounce on me?
THATS WHERE YOU FUCKED UP
i think was the phrase.

Also LOL at this.

I've been in actual rooms filled with people shouting at me.

The idea that Droid would wade in to defend my honour whilst I cowered in the corner is very very funny.

From my perspective there is a trade off, a duality, if you will of good discussion vs boorish in jokes. There is increasingly more of the latter than the former here but I have to give credit to Barty and Luka for starting some good threads too.

luka
09-03-2018, 12:41 PM
there's obviously a danger with all these old people with increasingly conservative opinions and staid habits that the forum becomes boring. so as droid says there's a balance to be struck. you lot need to be aware of what you contribute as well.

john eden
09-03-2018, 12:41 PM
and yet you called mr tea a cunt just the other day.

No I didn't.

luka
09-03-2018, 12:42 PM
you lot can really kill the atmosphere stone dead sometimes. like just suck all the air out of the room completely.

luka
09-03-2018, 12:44 PM
you openly called him a cunt. it was funny. but you still called him a cunt.

john eden
09-03-2018, 12:44 PM
you lot can really kill the atmosphere stone dead sometimes. like just suck all the air out of the room completely.

Sorry to spoil all the fun in Luka's Treehouse.

john eden
09-03-2018, 12:46 PM
you openly called him a cunt. it was funny. but you still called him a cunt.

It was what I believe middle aged grime fans call "an indirect".

And I was referring to a particular behaviour, not the totality of someone's being.

luka
09-03-2018, 12:46 PM
im sorry i lost my patience with you in this thread eden. i didnt want to hurt your feelings. but can you see why i felt i had to do it?

droid
09-03-2018, 12:47 PM
There's no problem with meaness per se, I have no issues with tea being called a cunt, in fact, I encourage it.

luka
09-03-2018, 12:48 PM
Sorry to spoil the all fun in Luka's Treehouse.

i mean, im trying to help make you lot happy. im engaging. but if you wont accept that no one wants daddy wagging their finger at them then i wont bother trying to accomodate your sensibilities. its give and take.

Mr. Tea
09-03-2018, 12:48 PM
and yet you called mr tea a cunt just the other day.

In John's defence I can be a bit of a cunt. But then so can nudge nudge most of the rest of us.

luka
09-03-2018, 12:51 PM
this is a great thread but eden had to be defeated before it could become great. that's all. it wasnt personal.

john eden
09-03-2018, 12:52 PM
im sorry i lost my patience with you in this thread eden. i didnt want to hurt your feelings. but can you see why i felt i had to do it?

You haven't hurt my feelings as I don't mind a good discussion. :)

However I am going to draw a line here and say that I don't want to become another jokey character in the Luka soap opera like Barty, Corpsey and Craner.

That might be because I have no sense of humour or emotions. And of course there is nothing to stop you cracking on with all this.

Dissensus is what we make it and I've not exactly been prolific myself recently.