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luka
24-05-2018, 04:53 PM
just heard Bob coming out a car. sounded joyful. reminded me he is the least fashionable artist and has been for as long as i can remember.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mm7muPjevik

legend.

luka
24-05-2018, 04:55 PM
in 1997-98 there were two reggae djs on 'community radio', bobo el numero uno and his mate whos name ive forgotten and their thing was "a Marley a day keeps the Dr away" so they started every show with a Marley record. it was great. i listened to them religiously.

luka
24-05-2018, 04:56 PM
dont even try to talk about those boring scratchy lee perry things on this thread


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHekNnySAfM

luka
24-05-2018, 04:56 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WQVb_nuKvs

personal favourite

luka
24-05-2018, 04:58 PM
great thread already.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWoDSGfSu6o

luka
24-05-2018, 05:00 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LanCLS_hIo4

DannyL
24-05-2018, 05:05 PM
A mate of mine did a Wailers special on his radio show last week. It's all killer: https://www.mixcloud.com/maharishi-hi-fi/musical-fever-presents-a-wailers-special-live-on-wwwback2backfmnet-13518/ I know for him Marley was the entry drug to lifetime's obsession.

luka
24-05-2018, 05:08 PM
do you remember when Sizzla kicked the living shit out of Beenie Man (i think it might have been in an airport in Germany) for saying he was bigger than Bob Marley?

DannyL
24-05-2018, 05:08 PM
His mixcloud is great btw, all the shows are fire - advanced reggae and rocksteady nerdery.

DannyL
24-05-2018, 05:09 PM
I didn't know that but totally appropriate

luka
24-05-2018, 05:10 PM
His mixcloud is great btw, all the shows are fire - advanced reggae and rocksteady nerdery.

listening now. name rings a bell for some reason. been around for ages has he? knocking about?

DannyL
24-05-2018, 05:12 PM
He's been around for a bit - maybe seen him on my Facebook? Him and a mate have been doing Revive nights for a few years, on and off.

DannyL
24-05-2018, 05:16 PM
What I like about this show is you can here the later Marley implicit in all the old stuff. It makes all kinda links, grounation drumming in the first track for instance. You read A Brief History of Seven Killings, Luka? I really enjoyed it. Seems somehow weird in terms of canon when Marley goes literary.

DannyL
24-05-2018, 05:19 PM
Having a work of "serious" literature produced about him (or around him) indicates a certain middle-classification which I am contributing to by mentioning it.

luka
24-05-2018, 05:30 PM
noooo. i heard the title before but had no idea what it was about.

DannyL
24-05-2018, 05:44 PM
It's a series of interwoven stories connected to the attempt on Marley's life in 1976 in a kinda weird David Peace style. It's good - I enjoyed the JA history and found it very readable though it's a bit hard to follow at times. There was some weird ghost rastas murdering someone at one stage and I had no idea what was happening.

yyaldrin
24-05-2018, 05:50 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9Mle0jBbic
bob marley age 17 :love:

version
24-05-2018, 06:02 PM
I find it difficult to get excited about him, some of it's pretty fun (Punky Reggae Party, Could You be Loved), but there's a lot of his stuff that I just find boring. I've always hated the intro of Redemption Song too.

Corpsey
24-05-2018, 06:51 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WQVb_nuKvs

personal favourite

This is one of my favourites. Could you be loved, Stir it up, Trench town rock

You're right, he is uncool - white crusties ruined his image

Corpsey
24-05-2018, 06:53 PM
And as you say - MOJO endorsed. BBC four.

luka
24-05-2018, 06:54 PM
not white crusties, posh white girls from north london called e.g.
Amelia and Xanthie.

Corpsey
24-05-2018, 06:54 PM
https://youtu.be/FL_BshgpNmo

CrowleyHead
24-05-2018, 07:09 PM
Well he isn't great because he's exciting to be honest. It's very much a wallow, but a good wallow. A wading, an immersion effect.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/gAFbYTvXXyY" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

luka
24-05-2018, 07:12 PM
100% warm bath. indulgent.

luka
24-05-2018, 07:18 PM
what a great thread. what great music that everyone likes even if they had forgotten

which reminds me of something. the first time i ever heard him my ear was so, so confused. ive never been so
discombobulated by music before or since. it was the rhythm. just sounded completely wrong.

Matthew
24-05-2018, 07:28 PM
just heard Bob coming out a car. sounded joyful. reminded me he is the least fashionable artist and has been for as long as i can remember.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mm7muPjevik

legend.

bob marley. massively underrated. "natty dread" up there with "heart of the congoes" and "right time" - wrongly hewn from the rest of reggae. super magic man.

Matthew
24-05-2018, 07:30 PM
https://www.discogs.com/Bob-Marley-The-Wailers-Natty-Dread/master/65908

luka
24-05-2018, 07:33 PM
culture hero

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=no5YWKY6eOs

luka
24-05-2018, 07:36 PM
Sellassie speech made into song

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XHEPoMNP0I

padraig (u.s.)
24-05-2018, 08:06 PM
Having a work of "serious" literature produced about him (or around him) indicates a certain middle-classification which I am contributing to by mentioning it.
really don't think it's possible for Bob Marley to undergo further middle-classification, and if it were it wouldn't be by a Jamaican author of Jamaican historical fiction.

it's always been the case that Bob Marley is great but part of his fanbase is so insufferable, and some his work so associated with them, as to make it unlistenable.

Like, I never, ever want to hear Three Little Birds, or fucking Buffalo Soldier, for the rest of my life.

it's not his fault but they're inextricably linked to the kinda frat boy assholes who like Dave Matthews. I mean it's absolutely brutal.

and One Love is basically the Sandals Resort national anthem. One of his sons recorded a version for a Virgin Airlines ad.

he suffers in that respect to an extent by comparison to for example Peter Tosh, tho tbf who knows what he would've gone on to do if he'd lived longer (both of them, really)

this is my favorite Bob Marley song, fwiw. unsurprisingly I prefer his work with Lee Perry, in general.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Yy29XUsceU

padraig (u.s.)
24-05-2018, 08:09 PM
A Brief History of Seven Killings is a fantastic novel also, that I recommend highly, especially to anyone with an interest in recent Jamaican history, i.e. most people here

luka
24-05-2018, 08:10 PM
unsurprisingly I prefer his work with Lee Perry, in general.

i specifically forbade anyone to express this inane and tediously contrarian opinion right at the very start of this thread! sometimes i honestly feel like you have been sent by god specifically to troll me. a kind of karmic avenger for all the people i have mercilessly trolled in life.

luka
24-05-2018, 08:10 PM
i deserve it. youre doing the lords work. i dont take it personally.

padraig (u.s.)
24-05-2018, 08:24 PM
i specifically forbade
ah I missed that

Plenty of the Island stuff is great, tbc. I'm not insane. War, for example.

You have to remember that U.S. - especially the Midwest - doesn't have a huge ingrained reggae element.

Not only is Bob Marley the only reggae most people know, Legends is the only Bob Marley they know.

Imagine hearing terrible people play those songs to death your entire life, hearing them in commercials, in terrible movies, as muzak in elevators.

It makes you shudder when you hear Jamming or Get Up Stand Up or No Woman No Cry or I Shot the fucking Sheriff.

version
24-05-2018, 08:24 PM
it's always been the case that Bob Marley is great but part of his fanbase is so insufferable, and some his work so associated with them, as to make it unlistenable.



I knew a guy who would get stoned, play the same three or four Bob Marley songs over and over and put on what he thought was a hilarious Jamaican accent. He also broke his collar bone attempting to do the Fosbury Flop over a washing line.

padraig (u.s.)
24-05-2018, 08:25 PM
Either way you should check out A Brief History of Seven Killing. I can see you not liking it for luka whatever contrarian reasons, but I think you would.

luka
24-05-2018, 08:26 PM
ah I missed that

Plenty of the Island stuff is great, tbc. I'm not insane. War, for example.

You have to remember that U.S. - especially the Midwest - doesn't have a huge ingrained reggae element.

Not only is Bob Marley the only reggae most people know, Legends is the only Bob Marley they know.

Imagine hearing terrible people play those songs to death your entire life, hearing them in commercials, in terrible movies, as muzak in elevators.

It makes you shudder when you hear Jamming or Get Up Stand Up or No Woman No Cry or I Shot the fucking Sheriff.

i do understand. buffalo soldier is probably still going to bring up bad associations for me too.

luka
24-05-2018, 08:27 PM
it's not like we're all rastas living in the hills over here.

version
24-05-2018, 08:30 PM
At this point I just think of this when I hear Buffalo Soldier.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=un7QiXsnF_Y

luka
24-05-2018, 08:33 PM
Either way you should check out A Brief History of Seven Killing. I can see you not liking it for luka whatever contrarian reasons, but I think you would.

my contrarian reason is hating novels and refusing to ever read them.

padraig (u.s.)
24-05-2018, 08:34 PM
yeah but you all do have a huge Jamaican influence, especially in London, and tons of good reggae of many varieties

nothing like that ever existed here outside of maybe New York and maybe a few other East Coast cities and then not nearly to the same extent

here if you're lucky the Bob Marley fan you're dealing with likes Phish instead of Dave Matthews. if you're lucky.

it's just not comparable.

padraig (u.s.)
24-05-2018, 08:35 PM
I knew a guy who would get stoned, play the same three or four Bob Marley songs over and over and put on what he thought was a hilarious Jamaican accent
that sounds about right

padraig (u.s.)
24-05-2018, 08:36 PM
my contrarian reason is hating novels and refusing to ever read them.
luka gonna luka

Matthew
24-05-2018, 08:36 PM
ok - point taken about lee perry - but them guys are like the sun and the moon

AND

gotta love this comp
https://www.discogs.com/Bob-Marley-The-Wailers-Small-Axe-The-UK-Upsetter-Recordings-1970-To-1972/release/5336481

includes all the versions and mc stuff - amazing sanctuary ark-aology

luka
24-05-2018, 08:39 PM
ok - point taken about lee perry - but them guys are like the sun and the moon

AND

gotta love this comp
https://www.discogs.com/Bob-Marley-The-Wailers-Small-Axe-The-UK-Upsetter-Recordings-1970-To-1972/release/5336481

includes all the versions and mc stuff - amazing sanctuary ark-aology

lee perry is great but his work with marley is completly insiginicant in the light of what was to come from both
artists.

version
24-05-2018, 08:41 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_RpwBNloQw

droid
24-05-2018, 08:43 PM
i specifically forbade anyone to express this inane and tediously contrarian opinion right at the very start of this thread! sometimes i honestly feel like you have been sent by god specifically to troll me. a kind of karmic avenger for all the people i have mercilessly trolled in life.

Its not a contrarian opinion, its actually the right opinion. The Perry recordings are outstanding, soulful, dense, proper cosmic roots music from a brief moment when the wailers were perhaps the best band on Earth.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzmu0bRsWu0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxLlodvcGkk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5_e2FtMxHs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qf8_CI-hV5U

See also, the Wailers on studio one

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R91b5saK5z0

Matthew
24-05-2018, 08:49 PM
lee perry is great but his work with marley is completly insiginicant in the light of what was to come from both
artists.

i can accept that. and i don't cleave to this "bob marley isn't real reggae" nonsense - i mean anyway - so waht - BUT there is something pretty supernatural about things like "my cup" - listen to the way marley comes in - practically explodes with energy, desperation.

and you know the story about the track? lee perry didn't want ANYTHING to do with singers - he was sick to death with dealing with the bullshit - was set on instrumentals - but bob pleaded with him for an audition - begged - so perry said "cmon mon" and so the wailers sang acapella "my cup" and perry was rooted to the spot - it was a message he thought - this young man he thought - this young man's cup is overflowing and he doesn't know what to do - he has so much fucking talent he needs an outlet - and i must be that conduit. COSMIC.:poop:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljTBKmiU1Fw

luka
24-05-2018, 08:53 PM
very cosmic and Marley clearly had the force but those recording are very dry and thin and joyless in comparison with the real Marley records. I've never once heard one of those songs played on radio for instance. never heard them coming out the window of someones home or car. theres a reason for that.

padraig (u.s.)
24-05-2018, 08:53 PM
Its not a contrarian opinion, its actually the right opinion
excellent

I knew you'd dive in both fists flying. I don't care enough about reggae to passionately defend the position. I mean, I care some, just not enough.

luka
24-05-2018, 08:55 PM
when i started the thread i knew full well you two would go the perry route.
which is why i headed you off at the pass. youre both so predictable!

luka
24-05-2018, 08:56 PM
2 peas in a pod!

droid
24-05-2018, 08:56 PM
Long before I knew anything about reggae, the first Marley I heard was a bootleg CD of the Perry stuff and for years afterwards I wondered what was missing from the other records.

As for taking Marley out of reggae... he kind of did that himself to some extent, the rock stylings and marketing, partly divorcing himself from the Jamaican production scene, abandoning the riddim... ABANDONING THE RIDDIM!!!!

padraig (u.s.)
24-05-2018, 08:57 PM
i don't cleave to this "bob marley isn't real reggae" nonsense
100% agree with this

it kinda gets tied up with "Legends is completely unbearable" sometimes but the two arguments should be kept distinctly apart

padraig (u.s.)
24-05-2018, 08:58 PM
youre both so predictable!
pot calling kettle

droid
24-05-2018, 08:59 PM
One bit of advice though, if youre driving down Hope road on the way to Tuff Gong to buy a few hundred 7 inches and your Rasta guide asks you if youre going to visit the Marley Museum as you pass it, NEVER say 'Well... Im not such a huge Bob Marley fan'.

luka
24-05-2018, 09:00 PM
when i started the thread i knew full well you two would go the perry route.
which is why i headed you off at the pass. youre both so predictable!

i mean whats fascinating and infuriating is it is we're so close to agreeing but that hairbreadth of difference is night and day... like we like a lot of the same genres but totally differnt things in them

luka
24-05-2018, 09:00 PM
pot calling kettle

prove it.

padraig (u.s.)
24-05-2018, 09:06 PM
going counter-contrarian by preempting the contrarian opinion back to the populist opinion is a classic luka move

you're a legit contrarian when it comes to literature and a counter-countrarian populist when it comes to music

come on man this isn't bad but we've message board known each other for years I know your moves

padraig (u.s.)
24-05-2018, 09:09 PM
if there's a choice you'll almost always choose populist notion that snubs received hip music dude counter-populist received wisdom

in this case rubbishing Lee Perry in favor of does it get played on the radio

sometimes I agree with you, not this time tho, tho like I said this isn't an area where my expertise/feelings are comparatively strong

luka
24-05-2018, 09:10 PM
ok you catch me in the act next time. not after ive just done it!

padraig (u.s.)
24-05-2018, 09:12 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_RpwBNloQw
brutal

padraig (u.s.)
24-05-2018, 09:14 PM
ok you catch me in the act next time. not after ive just done it!
I'll keep it in mind

it's not a bad thing btw

droid is probably more of a straight contrarian, I'm somewhere in the middle, other people fall somewhere on the spectrum. a diversity of opinions is good.

luka
24-05-2018, 09:16 PM
the perry thing is not contrarianism to be fair. it's a critical commonplace but not one shared by 'The People'

i am the spokesman for and representative of The People. The Peoples Champ.

droid
24-05-2018, 09:17 PM
I just know what Im talking about, like Matt. :poop:

luka
24-05-2018, 09:22 PM
I just know what Im talking about, like Matt. :poop:

mate, we;re talking about bob marley... it aint exactly obscure looool

droid
24-05-2018, 09:25 PM
Come back to me when youve seen Jah in a yard dance, climbed the blue mountains, shopped at Rockers international... etc...

DannyL
24-05-2018, 09:26 PM
really don't think it's possible for Bob Marley to undergo further middle-classification, and if it were it wouldn't be by a Jamaican author of Jamaican historical fiction.



I see the thread has moved on at a rate of knots but for clarity, I meant in contrast to what I was hearing in the show I posted. Those guys are working class reggae fans who grew up listening to Marley, and are all huge fans and hear him in his context of reggae history.

I've always thought the absence of literature/novels as a form in JA was really interesting and put it down to class differentials. The creative energy of the island seemed to be in the music instead i.e. with working people. Marlon James is an anomaly in that way.

This may be bullshit, I'm not sure - googling "Jamaican novels" threw this up: https://lithub.com/marlon-james-five-jamaican-novels-you-should-read/

padraig (u.s.)
24-05-2018, 09:27 PM
i am the spokesman for and representative of The People. The Peoples Champ.
this is exactly what I said

"contrarianism" may be confusing it a bit. "critical commonplace" or received critical opinion is closer.

what I'm saying is your populism isn't pure populism, it specifically comes from an anti-critical opinion place, i.e. it's anti-anti-populism.

you've read Eshun, blissblogger, etc, so your arguments are informed by the critics views but against received critical wisdom.

otoh when it comes to literature you're a complete anti-populist snob (this is said with love).

luka
24-05-2018, 09:27 PM
are you having a laugh? that sounded so silly! im going to quote that back at you every day for the rest of your life now loooool

luka
24-05-2018, 09:27 PM
Come back to me when youve seen Jah in a yard dance, climbed the blue mountains, shopped at Rockers international... etc...

just have to get this in case it gets deleted.... too good!

luka
24-05-2018, 09:28 PM
this is exactly what I said

"contrarianism" may be confusing it a bit. "critical commonplace" or received critical opinion is closer.

what I'm saying is your populism isn't pure populism, it specifically comes from an anti-critical opinion place, i.e. it's anti-anti-populism.

you've read Eshun, blissblogger, etc, so your arguments are informed by the critics views but against received critical wisdom.

otoh when it comes to literature you're a complete anti-populist snob (this is said with love).

yeah this is true. very different relationship to lit than music. i understand literature but i love music.

luka
24-05-2018, 09:31 PM
i just started the thread becasue i heard that song coming out the car and it sounded great and then i thought about how hes been so hard done by by his fans and by associations we make with his records and it seems unfair cos like matt says he was a magic man, shaman-healer

it was just supposed to be a ray of uncomplicated sunshine!

padraig (u.s.)
24-05-2018, 09:33 PM
The creative energy of the island seemed to be in the music instead i.e. with working people[/url]
it'd be fair to say Jamaican literature has had nowhere near the global impact/footprint of Jamaican music

I don't know about "creative energy" but class differentials - specifically education (both for production and consumption), and access to/infrastructure for distribution seems like a reasonable hypothesis, or at least one major reason for the relative paucity of Jamaican literature compared to music.

luka
24-05-2018, 09:35 PM
it'd be fair to say Jamaican literature has had nowhere near the global impact/footprint of Jamaican music

I don't know about "creative energy" but class differentials - specifically education (both for production and consumption), and access to/infrastructure for distribution seems like a reasonable hypothesis, or at least one major reason for the relative paucity of Jamaican literature compared to music.

i dont think it matters especially. music is better than novels anyway. i dont think we need to have
novels from everyone and everywhere anymore than we need cricketers from every country in the world.

padraig (u.s.)
24-05-2018, 09:43 PM
i understand literature but i love music
and to be extra clear, that's a totally reasonable position to have

sometimes - with music - you wind up people up puncturing received critical wisdom with the informed poptimist style view

I don't think it's cynical or anything, I fully believe you love all these things, and it's good you're fighting for their legitimacy. I just know some of your moves.

(I'll never understand your weird dismissal of disco, but we all have our blind spots. anyway, by all means back to your ray of sunshine.)

padraig (u.s.)
24-05-2018, 09:47 PM
i dont think it matters especially
I don't think it does either, Danny + I are just noting an interesting thing.

padraig (u.s.)
24-05-2018, 09:50 PM
Come back to me when youve seen Jah in a yard dance, climbed the blue mountains, shopped at Rockers international... etc...
I'm distancing myself as far as possible from this, btw

I mean, amazing quote - love droid just going for it - but yeah I can't co-sign that in any way

droid
24-05-2018, 09:53 PM
lol. Nearly 15 years on this site and Im still been taken seriously.

Cmon, If I wanted to flash my reggae creds Id be chatting about 12th gen riddim versions and rare digi drum machines.

padraig (u.s.)
24-05-2018, 09:56 PM
that quote really just makes me think of droid on the beach at Sandals Resort listening to a sick, highly authentic version of One Love

(he's the one in the chair with the maracas)
614

padraig (u.s.)
24-05-2018, 09:57 PM
come on droid you know it's all )))))):love:((((((((

padraig (u.s.)
24-05-2018, 09:58 PM
the wind up is you taking our wind up seriously

droid
24-05-2018, 10:01 PM
lol, Just wanted to nip it in the bud, just in case.

I never made it to the top of the blue mountains. It was too wet. Two people had died when a mudslide destroyed their shack the night before.

version
24-05-2018, 10:02 PM
Bill Orcutt put an album out a few years ago with a great Bob Marley themed cover.

https://img.discogs.com/qXAfcw0f0t7jx2qnaBlhXwFtzp4=/fit-in/600x602/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():qualit y(90)/discogs-images/R-7664738-1446250150-4314.jpeg.jpg

blissblogger
24-05-2018, 11:48 PM
617

his fans do make it harder to love Bob

that's Venice Beach, that is - with Bob subsumed within the kitschscape that is the beachside promenade - walk-in botox clinics, insta-prescriptions for medical marijuana, skateboarders, girls in daisy dukes etc (I love it actually, Venice is a trip)

bit further down there's a Deadhead stall

mistersloane
25-05-2018, 12:18 AM
Every year for 15 years, my next door neighbour, on the first sunny day of spring, the day when the little kids can go back out and play on the street and everyone opens their windows and plays lovers, my neighbour would put on Three Little Birds and I'd run to my records and open my windows and play this alongside it, from about 5 mins in.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/LEKuX8arORc" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Every year.

padraig (u.s.)
25-05-2018, 01:43 AM
619
I have no idea who controls his estate or has the final say signing off on these things but it's like come on

much worse than the middle-classification I think, it's this dilution and defanging

I think of the famous picture of him bring together Seaga + Manley, or playing Smile Jamaica two days after narrowly surviving an assassination atttempt

And sure, recuperation is inevitable, but whatever his flaws the man stood for something, meant (still means) something vast + real to a lot of people

I'm pretty sure at least part of the reason I find the Legends etc stuff so excruciating is knowing that it represents this towering figure being reduced to a neat, safe product almost completely removed, anesthetized, dislocated from whatever imparted that meaning.

padraig (u.s.)
25-05-2018, 01:44 AM
to see this towering figure reduced basically to shorthand for red-eyed college sophomores

padraig (u.s.)
25-05-2018, 01:45 AM
it is what it is but it still makes me fairly disgusted if I actually think about it

Matthew
25-05-2018, 06:25 AM
and not forgetting my favourite

brainwashing

ANYTHING with mr brown, the coffin and crows

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9sAJcLr3bA

Corpsey
25-05-2018, 06:46 AM
that quote really just makes me think of droid on the beach at Sandals Resort listening to a sick, highly authentic version of One Love

(he's the one in the chair with the maracas)
614

Luka on the far right

CrowleyHead
25-05-2018, 11:38 AM
I react more strongly to films being the college dorm staple than I do music so while say... Scarface is the Bob Marley Poster of films (which is an odd sort of yin-yang right there), I don't let my appreciation for Bob get tampered by the demystification and perverseness. If you want to say later stuff isn't 'Real Reggae' (which fine, god forbid) it's still some of the best soul/pop/rock or w/e of it's era.

That said the real take is that Lee Perry is bad with or without Bob.

droid
25-05-2018, 11:49 AM
Solo stuff aside, Perry produced AT LEAST 2 of the greatest reggae albums of all time, Heart of the Congos & War inna Babylon & the Black Ark is unimpeachable. He's the RZA of reggae.

baboon2004
25-05-2018, 12:52 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kY6OfoRF4R4

french very keen on him too. though sometimes even keener on jimmy cliff in my experience. world centre of jimmy cliff enthusiasts.

'bob marley isn't real reggae' argument - hard to think of any other genre, especially one so rich, where such a large percentage of people (still!) associate it almost solely with one artist, so the backlash is bound to be epic.

Matthew
25-05-2018, 07:37 PM
Solo stuff aside, Perry produced AT LEAST 2 of the greatest reggae albums of all time, Heart of the Congos & War inna Babylon & the Black Ark is unimpeachable. He's the RZA of reggae.

damn right. and the joseph beuys.

padraig (u.s.)
25-05-2018, 10:44 PM
the real take is that Lee Perry is bad with or without Bob
oh man totally love this

serious or not it immediately rises high into the glorious and storied pantheon of totally absurd Dissensus hot takes

see, luka - that's how you do it

kudos

padraig (u.s.)
25-05-2018, 10:50 PM
otoh I do fully understand choosing not let the grossness surrounding a thing ruin your appreciation of that thing

I can't myself in this case, but I fully admit if it was say Larry Levan instead of Bob I would 100% look past it

padraig (u.s.)
25-05-2018, 10:51 PM
Luka on the far right
"People's Champ"

luka
26-05-2018, 01:39 AM
oh man totally love this

serious or not it immediately rises high into the glorious and storied pantheon of totally absurd Dissensus hot takes

see, luka - that's how you do it

kudos

i dont ever say anything for the sake of it. i think youve got me confused with someone else.

luka
26-05-2018, 01:40 AM
not being bad but this is my message board. i make the rules. dont get cocky because i will throw you out the door.

i dont want to but i will if you dont behave.

luka
26-05-2018, 01:45 AM
we all like a laugh and a joke but lets respect the boundaries. there is a limit.

luka
26-05-2018, 01:49 AM
im a very tolerant person but i will draw a line in the sand when it's necessary. i want us all to have fun together but that depends on everyone adhering to certain standards.

sadmanbarty
26-05-2018, 01:52 AM
there's a nastiness here which i'm uncomfortable with.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0NentNBRlQ

sadmanbarty
26-05-2018, 01:53 AM
by the way, if the stuff on legend isn't your favourite marley you have to question your priorities in life.

sadmanbarty
26-05-2018, 01:56 AM
stunning

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3UqvWk8-uw

there's one on the old grey whistle test with too much reverb that's nice but in a whole different way

sadmanbarty
26-05-2018, 02:10 AM
i dont ever say anything for the sake of it. i think youve got me confused with someone else.

this is revealing. the animosity towards us on here is derived from a grossly profound misunderstanding of us.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WQVb_nuKvs

luka
26-05-2018, 08:55 AM
we are tarts with hearts of gold.

luka
26-05-2018, 08:56 AM
just want to sip a Rubicon guava based mocktail by a hotel swimming pool, chill out, listen to some bob marley.

sadmanbarty
26-05-2018, 10:55 AM
i'm going to be the marley to luke and padraig's manley and seaga.

john eden
26-05-2018, 11:01 AM
[/url]

there's one on the old grey whistle test with too much reverb that's nice but in a whole different way

The OGWT one is amazing. One of the best pieces of music ever seen on the BBC.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JE3WaSETf8k

john eden
26-05-2018, 11:02 AM
Marley is like the Beatles really. If you're into music you have to make a real effort to hear it properly again without all the cultural sediment that's grown over it.

john eden
26-05-2018, 11:03 AM
I've not actually heard all the albums. Maybe I should do that.

CrowleyHead
26-05-2018, 06:40 PM
For the record that's two good LPs for Scratch in which, there's a whole team of people responsible. This is Auteurism. It's like how Mark Romanek zoomed off the strength of having Escoffier as a cinematographer and stealing good ideas from other directors for his music videos but then when asked to have his own ideas? Crickets! Wasteland! Which is the answer of why everything once Scratch becomes solo is pure carny hucksterism rubbish. Return of the Super Ape or whatever its called? Boring nonsense. "OH THE BLACK ARK". Listen to yourselves!

At least with Bob there have been proper assaults on his integrity, a la "The stuff with Perry is the best" or "It all falls apart once Tosh and Bunny leave" or "Island made him into a rock artist, it's not proper reggae".

Where's that Sacred Cow thread here? Should've put Perry at the top of the list for you boys.

droid
26-05-2018, 09:15 PM
Yeah, sorry, but thats nonsense. Reggae is a genre in which producers and even engineers have been hugely important and have left indelible marks on the sound, the style and the history & progression of the music. Not simply because of their technical skills but due to their personalities and the fact that studios acted as de facto meeting places, hostels and a community focus for activities. Bunny Lee, Duke Reid, Joe Hoo-Kim, Tubby, Scientist, Errol Thompson, Herman Chin-loy, Jammy, Leslie Kong, Clive Chin, Junjo... These are towering figures who had massive influence.

In Perry's case his impact is perhaps even more pronounced, both because of the pool of talent he was able to attract and also because his sound was genuinely unique. There really is no one else who had the same sensibility, who exploited and marshalled artists in the same way or produced records that sound quite like his. In that sense he is similar to Augustus Pablo, an anomalous figure who approached things from a different perspective and elevated the genre in the process.

luka
26-05-2018, 09:31 PM
siezing this opportunity to agree with droid.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTsUb2vbRRE

luka
26-05-2018, 09:32 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxVkSwX_EKw

luka
26-05-2018, 09:37 PM
the guy had heavy powers. magic powers and carni-ness/huckerism are not mutually exclusive. quite the opposite
they almost always go together.

droid
26-05-2018, 10:03 PM
Glimpses

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y651C7aNXRc

john eden
27-05-2018, 09:32 AM
I think the general consensus is that the last good thing Perry did was the albums with Adrian Sherwood in the eighties. Some would argue that he lost it before then.

He’s had less scrutiny because he’s mainly a producer and not a singer in his heyday. And so less visible.

His “madman” schtick is still amusing occasionally though - it was cool when he was the Lindt Chocolate ambassador briefly recently.

padraig (u.s.)
27-05-2018, 10:47 AM
1 - to clarify, again, luka I think all your positions are sincere. even the windups - especially the windups.

2 - that crowley post is glorious madness. I do respect the double down tho. go big or go home.

(and droid can carry that water far better than I can but - no one said Lee Perry is infallible. clearly there's plenty of garbage in his back catalog, he's never (afaik) been able to recreate the magic of Black Ark, probably his reputation is inflated by the legends surrounding him. you didn't say he's overrated - which is maybe true - or whatever tho, you said he was bad, and then that he was devoid of creative ideas, which is contradicted by mountains of historical evidence. there's puncturing sacred cows and then there's wild shots off the bow)

3 - barty there is absolutely no way you're casting me as Seaga tho. a CIA front man who initiated structural adjustment programs for the IMF? low blow.

padraig (u.s.)
27-05-2018, 10:51 AM
Marley is like the Beatles really. If you're into music you have to make a real effort to hear it properly again
John you know I always have a lot of respect for your opinion but come on now. absolutely not.

the idea that one is obliged to make some special effort to "hear" them if "you're into music" is exactly the problem in the first place

if someone loves Legends or whatever more power to them. why do I or anyone also need try to like that thing?

I'm not out here telling people they need to make a special effort to reevaluate disco (even tho it is one million times more culturally interesting than The Beatles)

what is going on these days? first the Doors, now this. someone fire up the Bob Dylan appreciation thread + get it over with.

(tbc I fully support the I suppose inevitable, Dissensus turn to Boomer dad rock - more power to you all)

padraig (u.s.)
27-05-2018, 10:56 AM
for me personally, to be clear

Steppin' Razor, and Blackheart Man > every Bob Marley song from the post-Tosh/Bunny era

and while I'm at it, might as well

Yoko Ono >>>>>>>>>> The Beatles

and now I'll let luka go back to sipping mocktails by the pool and listen to something that brings uncomplicated joy, a pursuit I fully support

padraig (u.s.)
27-05-2018, 11:02 AM
also, One Love )))))):love:((((((

CrowleyHead
27-05-2018, 03:23 PM
John you know I always have a lot of respect for your opinion but come on now. absolutely not.

the idea that one is obliged to make some special effort to "hear" them if "you're into music" is exactly the problem in the first place

if someone loves Legends or whatever more power to them. why do I or anyone also need try to like that thing?

I'm not out here telling people they need to make a special effort to reevaluate disco (even tho it is one million times more culturally interesting than The Beatles)

what is going on these days? first the Doors, now this. someone fire up the Bob Dylan appreciation thread + get it over with.

(tbc I fully support the I suppose inevitable, Dissensus turn to Boomer dad rock - more power to you all)

There was a Bob Dylan thread here already eons ago.

For the record, my perspective was that John said because there is a sort of cultural inflation of Bob and The Beatles similarly that kind of tokenizes them into a personality accessory, it takes a conscious effort to go back and reappraise and appreciate them sometimes, which is entirely fair. Like I enjoy The Beatles but the perception of Loving The Beatles comes with such a weird irritating banality I wouldn't want to announce it to strangers.

john eden
27-05-2018, 03:33 PM
John you know I always have a lot of respect for your opinion but come on now. absolutely not.

the idea that one is obliged to make some special effort to "hear" them if "you're into music" is exactly the problem in the first place

if someone loves Legends or whatever more power to them. why do I or anyone also need try to like that thing?

I'm not out here telling people they need to make a special effort to reevaluate disco (even tho it is one million times more culturally interesting than The Beatles)

what is going on these days? first the Doors, now this. someone fire up the Bob Dylan appreciation thread + get it over with.

(tbc I fully support the I suppose inevitable, Dissensus turn to Boomer dad rock - more power to you all)

Well :)

What I mean by that is that after your initial discovery you just hear Bob Marley all over the place so it becomes like wallpaper. Literally everywhere you go in the world you will hear Bob Marley. Which is a fine testament.

If people just like Legend then good for them, that's great. I think a lot of music geeks kind of got sick of Marley for a while though, and can then maybe rediscover it. Which is what I am doing right now, not having heard the Wailing Wailers LP or Soul Rebels in the entirety previously. (Spoiler - they have some amazing tracks but a lot of it isn't that great compared to other things coming out of JA at the time).

Much of the criticism of BMW on this thread has been "the sort of people who like it" which obviously isn't a reason not to like anything. But there are a lot of them, which means that the music can get over exposed.

There is probably an inverted snobbery going on at the moment, which is I think the hipsters of Dissensus trying to rebalance the cultural snobbery of their youth - Bob Marley not being "real" reggae for example, or reggae for people who cant handle Burning Spear or Ward 21.

luka
27-05-2018, 08:33 PM
There is probably an inverted snobbery going on at the moment, which is I think the hipsters of Dissensus trying to rebalance the cultural snobbery of their youth - Bob Marley not being "real" reggae for example

that was basically the point of the thread yeah. it seems a worthwhile thing to do to me.

padraig (u.s.)
27-05-2018, 09:21 PM
inverted snobbery
yes that's what I was getting at above, tho I wouldn't have used the word snobbery which implies a disdain I think absent

of course going back and reevaluating things with some distance, fresher ears, a more open mind (somewhat) freed from the hangups of youth, can be very fruitful

what I object to really is this presumed universality of The Beatles, Marley, etc, that there's some obligation to reevaluate them because I guess of their omnipresence

I've heard enough to know it's not for me, plus there's a million far more interesting things to try to cram into a very brief window

if other people want to that's fantastic

luka
27-05-2018, 09:25 PM
well im the same

i dont like the beatles and would never make the effort to 'hear them'

ive always like bob marley but have basically ignored him recently becasue ubiquity.

john eden
27-05-2018, 09:41 PM
There’s certainly no *obligation* to re-evaluate anything. It’s just a fun thing to do.

luka
27-05-2018, 09:43 PM
the way taste covers and uncovers things with time, like a rising and ebbing tide, is one of the most fascinating things about being into music. the way it sounds changes depending on the historical moment you are in.

padraig (u.s.)
27-05-2018, 09:56 PM
of course, that's why I was surprised when you made it sound like anyone who's into music owes it themselves to go back and try like these things

I don't like the Beatles (basically ambivalent about Marley) in the first place so why make the effort


I wouldn't want to announce it to strangers
sure. disco - I'll just stick with it as an example - similarly has a large amount of cultural baggage, if not quite the same, was massively commercially popular and almost universally hated/disdained by critics, and is something I never in a million years would've given any amount of time to as a kid, yet here I am semi-regularly proselytizing for it and that's an effort I'm happy to make, to hear past the cultural baggage.

padraig (u.s.)
27-05-2018, 09:58 PM
the way taste covers and uncovers things with time, like a rising and ebbing tide, is one of the most fascinating things about being into music
it surely is

with the internet and the immediately available of all things I do think taste has come somewhat unhinged from time but the cultural metanarrative is still massive

luka
27-05-2018, 10:07 PM
why does a genre become ripe for reappraisal? why does a particular aspect, or particular aspects, of the music of the past suddenly start resonating in the present? i dont think it's easy to say.

corsepy was saying recently that the '8-s used to be the most unfashionable decade and now it is the most fashionable. but it's more than that. it's that the unfashionable aspects of the '80s became fashionable.
not marshall jefferson, egyptian lover and juan atkins.

luka
27-05-2018, 10:34 PM
there's a certain amount of swing from pole to pole. reacting to a sensibility which has held sway for long enough to become stifling. but a lot of it is much more nuanced and interesting than that.

CrowleyHead
28-05-2018, 12:51 PM
I mean genre reappraisal doesn't exist in the 'normal world' to a degree. Disco just conventionally sucks, rock is essentially good, etc. etc. I get what padraig is saying about how these aren't necessities to go about living and thinking for individuals but at the same time there's sort of conventional cultural expectations placed around certain music. Which we're all guilty of, how many times is Corpse gonna presume Beethoven is smart people music when by Classical Music Standards (as opposed to Classical Period or whatever) that's basically saying a Clash song is the peak of music. Not his fault (and not that I just want to tease Corpsey here to illustrate a point), it's just what's in the air. It's not about just baggage about the listeners sometimes, certain music gets weaponized into society and used to stratify people culturally, and that can devalue the music so viciously for someone that it's unfair to the music's strengths and possibilities.

Leo
28-05-2018, 02:27 PM
been said before and not rocket science but sometimes people who lived through particular eras and trends have a negative perception of them for whatever reasons, whereas a younger person might embrace them because they didn't live through the time and don't have the same exposure to all the associated baggage.

some "older" people have no interest in disco (or yacht rock, or bellbottoms, or square-toed shoes, or shag haircuts, or whatever) because they still carry negative associations from the time but a 22-year old bushwick hipster who's disconnected from all those associations sees the the era/trend through a different cultural lens. in some cases, the young ones might like it on its face, or in the annoyingly ironic "so uncool that it's cool" way, the informed contrarian, etc.

at the risk of getting all retromania (and going further off topic), it's interesting to consider why and when things cycle back to coolness. i used to think the action-reaction pendulum swing was pretty much just time based (20 years seems to be a reliable timeframe) but maybe it's also got to do with people's longing for their youth as mortality encroaches.

in contrast to my theory above, some people who for example currently fetishize the 80s could very well be those who lived through it, have recently entered their 40s or 50s and, questioning what they've done with their lives and their approaching twilight years, pine for signifiers of their youth.

Leo
28-05-2018, 02:28 PM
i also never thought i'd read a 10-page thread on bob marley.

Corpsey
29-05-2018, 11:46 AM
edit: too tired today to debate

luka
29-05-2018, 02:39 PM
edit: too tired today to debate

boring. and also paranoid. we werent guna debate you we were guna applaud you.

Corpsey
29-05-2018, 02:50 PM
to be clearer, I'm on a drugs hangover, so its a terminal tiredness

i just going to query what crowley said about me and my friend beethoven (who can't even defend himself, god rest his soul)

luka
29-05-2018, 02:59 PM
to be clearer, I'm on a drugs hangover, so its a terminal tiredness

i just going to query what crowley said about me and my friend beethoven (who can't even defend himself, god rest his soul)

oh yeah that. i was i the british museum this afternoon thinking
'i hope he sticks up for himself'

what drugs did you do? snout in the trough?

Corpsey
29-05-2018, 03:02 PM
was also going to say that, while there are doubtless many political/cultural/'external' mechanisms going on in canonisation, to some extent the cream rises to the top over time - no, that's not the metaphor for the process whereby whatever is good will be rescued from erosion and oblivion by its evident goodness

paging professor harold bloom

Corpsey
29-05-2018, 03:04 PM
oh yeah that. i was i the british museum this afternoon thinking
'i hope he sticks up for himself'

what drugs did you do? snout in the trough?

no good ones really, just didn't sleep properly two nights in a row

british musuem - rodin and the greeks?

luka
29-05-2018, 03:13 PM
no good ones really, just didn't sleep properly two nights in a row

british musuem - rodin and the greeks?

no. there was a silk scarf with a Thoth print on it I needed to buy.

also had to check in on the pink temple lady.
https://twitter.com/Ray_Cappuccino/status/1001394097851109376
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anahita
and also, at the same time
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aphrodite

i will go to the rodin thing but i was too hungry to concentrate this time round.

luka
29-05-2018, 04:07 PM
was also going to say that, while there are doubtless many political/cultural/'external' mechanisms going on in canonisation, to some extent the cream rises to the top over time - no, that's not the metaphor for the process whereby whatever is good will be rescued from erosion and oblivion by its evident goodness

paging professor harold bloom

im not really talking about the good. im talking about what resonates at a particular point in time.
why all those bands wanted to excavate post-punk at that particular point (in the mid-'00s or whenever it was that happened) for example.

Corpsey
29-05-2018, 04:17 PM
corsepy was saying recently that the '8-s used to be the most unfashionable decade and now it is the most fashionable. but it's more than that. it's that the unfashionable aspects of the '80s became fashionable.
not marshall jefferson, egyptian lover and juan atkins.

This is interesting - is this because the conditions are similar to those of the 80s, or because they are dissimilar - or nothing of the sort? Is it simply that the unfashionable music is so long gone that it has left the zone of derision?

Also, that we might now think of things as being similar to the 80s, and that that 'we' might not have been ALIVE in the 80s, and even the ones who were might only know the 80s by some increasingly faint memories and by the version of the 80s that has been memorialised, mythologised, etc.

This is the essence of everything isn't it, what was once charged with meaning becomes meaningless or meaningful in a different way

Beethoven the revolutionary becomes Beethoven the can I put you on hold jingle

Corpsey
29-05-2018, 04:20 PM
no. there was a silk scarf with a Thoth print on it I needed to buy.



Coincidentally (perhaps not as we've been talking about yeats and all that) I've been coveting a scarab necklace lately

Realistically I'm not a jewellery kinda guy but I like the scarab myth

'In ancient Egyptian religion, the sun god Ra is seen to roll across the sky each day, transforming bodies and souls. Beetles of the Scarabaeidae family (dung beetle) roll dung into a ball as food and as a brood chamber in which to lay eggs; this way, the larvae hatch and are immediately surrounded by food. For these reasons the scarab was seen as a symbol of this heavenly cycle and of the idea of rebirth or regeneration. The Egyptian god Khepri, Ra as the rising sun, was often depicted as a scarab beetle or as a scarab beetle-headed man. The ancient Egyptians believed that Khepri renewed the sun every day before rolling it above the horizon, then carried it through the other world after sunset, only to renew it, again, the next day. A golden scarab of Nefertiti was discovered in the Uluburun wreck.[1]'

Corpsey
29-05-2018, 04:22 PM
All of this, btw, might not be too tangential, given the religious significance of much reggae music (but not for atheists, or even for pot-head christians in midwestern frat houses)

luka
29-05-2018, 04:26 PM
the good thing about the necklace is you can take it off
you couldnt do that if you tattooed it on your arse.

john eden
04-06-2018, 07:11 PM
649

So Burning is the first Island album. Which is basically what this thread is about if we use Luka's caveat.

I heard it for the first time on Sunday. It's a good album with some amazing songs but also some complete duds like Hallelujah Time, One Foundation and Pass It On which are just cheesy. The production across the board is quite grating for me but I can see how it fits into the rock schtick of the time. You can't argue with this lot:

Get Up, Stand Up,
I Shot The Sheriff
Burnin' And Lootin'
Small Axe
Duppy Conqueror

I was also surprised by how much enunciation Bob does and how clearly the lyrics are expressed. I guess that's obvious but it really stood out.

"Put It On" is a pretty great example of why Island-isaton was inevitable at the time but looks like an awful idea in retrospect. It's an amazing song rendered simply OK by the arrangement here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdlZWQ-J92U

The demo version IS objectively better, less fuss and no lyrics about "I feel like toasting" either:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLNoPwLS-FU

Studio One version from late 60s is also great.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOrLMoyUIgU

For me there is just no contest - these are great songs played by great players but just messed up in the studio in a way that wouldn't have been except for Island. But Island had to happen and these albums changed the world basically.

john eden
04-06-2018, 07:18 PM
1973 was when it started happening for Bob and the gang (Burning, Catch A Fire, African Herbsman).

For context, this lot also came out and are certainly better than Burning:

I Roy - Presenting I Roy
Tappa Zukie ‎– Man Ah Warrior
Burning Spear ‎– Studio One Presents Burning Spear
Cornell Campbell ‎– Cornell Campbell
Count Ossie And The Mystic Revelation Of Rastafari ‎– Grounation

Instrumental + Dub '73:

Impact All Stars ‎– Java Java Java Java
The Upsetters ‎– Upsetters 14 Dub Black Board Jungle

To be continued...

droid
04-06-2018, 07:31 PM
Larry Marshall ‎– Presenting Larry Marshall
The Heptones ‎– Book Of Rules
Horace Andy ‎– You Are My Angel

Matthew
05-06-2018, 07:42 AM
For me there is just no contest - these are great songs played by great players but just messed up in the studio in a way that wouldn't have been except for Island. But Island had to happen and these albums changed the world basically.

island's thing was obviously fusion. right back to wayne perkins guitar on catch a fire.

musos have a big problem with fusion because of the (*kinda* erroneous) idea of the authentic.

but just because something isn't aspiring for authenticity - or in that place - doesn't make it invalid in my book.

certainly that's how i come at later bob. it's next level stuff. big international studios etc. sometimes a bit hollower but equally gains some mystique from that scale of cultural ambition.

luka
05-06-2018, 08:18 AM
this conversation lends itself to discussing fetishisation. it's something we all do, unavoidably. i don't buy the notion that it is an unalloyed evil. quite the opposite in fact (up to a point)

reggae collectors (from all backgrounds besides west indian) are probably the most notorious for this, even going as far as to adopt patois and wearing crocheted rasta tams as Eden and Droid have been known to do!

irie mon!

Corpsey
05-06-2018, 08:43 AM
Was listening to a bit of LIVE! the other day and was surprised by how genuinely thrilling it is

Corpsey
05-06-2018, 08:44 AM
even going as far as to adopt patois and wearing crocheted rasta tams as Eden and Droid have been known to do!

irie mon!

is this true? lolll

https://media.giphy.com/media/YfPhlO1q8chUc/giphy.gif

droid
05-06-2018, 08:56 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcK0MYgnHjo

luka
05-06-2018, 09:15 AM
a lot of these terms (fetishisation, othering, exoticisim, etc) often get used to justify staying in a given cultural cul-de-sac, to justify a lack of curiosity and essentially, to justify a fear of the other which is more pernicious than any naive impulse to exoticise...

not to say this cant become PROBLEMATIC (to use one of those words), but as an initial impulse to reach out and understand and identify with what is different and unfamiliar i think it's a positive force on the whole.

john eden
05-06-2018, 09:32 AM
I think Matt is right about fusion.

What I'm hoping is that as I get through to the later Marley albums that this fusion becomes more successful.

I think for me it's sonic fetishism rather than some kind of cultural insistence on authenticity. I mean I've championed UK Dub and steppas which is about as inauthentic as you can get. The Bug stuff also, breakcore, you name it.

What's funny though, is Luka et al insisting in one thread that Jungle is terrible after 1993 and that "Timeless" is an abomination which shouldn't exist. Whereas on this thread the opposite is true.

luka
05-06-2018, 06:19 PM
What's funny though, is Luka et al insisting in one thread that Jungle is terrible after 1993 and that "Timeless" is an abomination which shouldn't exist. Whereas on this thread the opposite is true.

im not sure im following you here. could you elaborate a little?

Corpsey
05-06-2018, 06:20 PM
Bob Marley = Goldie

craner
05-06-2018, 06:26 PM
I'm sure Matt made the same claim too. In fact they did it together once, in The Palm Tree to me, but it was 1994, not 93.

john eden
05-06-2018, 08:15 PM
im not sure im following you here. could you elaborate a little?

Well just that in terms of both sonics and authenticity the argument has been made that Jungle was all about the sound of raves and pirates and white label 12”. And that Goldie’s ascent and acceptance by a major label with a more polished album concept was a completely different thing from that, and also bad.

Also a shift in fan base from ravers (and music geeks) to coffee table student stoners.

Which is the same as the Marley trajectory?

Admittedly Goldie didn’t set the world on fire in quite the same way.

droid
05-06-2018, 09:24 PM
I had a dream the other night that Goldie was dead. Not that he'd just died, but that he'd been dead for years and it was common knowledge.

Matthew
06-06-2018, 08:15 AM
I think Matt is right about fusion.

What I'm hoping is that as I get through to the later Marley albums that this fusion becomes more successful.

I think for me it's sonic fetishism rather than some kind of cultural insistence on authenticity. I mean I've championed UK Dub and steppas which is about as inauthentic as you can get. The Bug stuff also, breakcore, you name it.

What's funny though, is Luka et al insisting in one thread that Jungle is terrible after 1993 and that "Timeless" is an abomination which shouldn't exist. Whereas on this thread the opposite is true.

two three of my favourite dub lps are fusions. planet mars dub (recorded at compass point), blackbeard's "i wah dub" (packed full of moogy and jazzy touches) and prince far i's "cry tuff dub chapter 3"

i suppose there's that spiel about dub as a viral agency "infecting" other genres (lol :rolleyes:) but still it's basically an example of how reggae fusion isnt necessarily a bad thing

ALSO if you're looking at theee most "hardkore" uncompromising rastafarian roots music that's yabby you (aka jesus dread) and IMHO yabby you is often fecking orrible to listen to. way too earnest and dry to the point of silliness.

by the same token give me rebel mc's fun early stuff like x project or conquering lion over the ridiculously earnest rasta jungle he ends up concocting.

john eden
06-06-2018, 11:46 AM
Well I won't hear a word against Yabby You but I am from earnest stock.

It's an obvious point to make but reggae was of course a fusion itself of US r&b and nyabinghi and pocomania business.

Matthew
06-06-2018, 02:13 PM
It's an obvious point to make but reggae was of course a fusion itself of US r&b and nyabinghi and pocomania business.

you only went and bloody nailed it mate

john eden
10-06-2018, 07:37 PM
645

Catch A Fire (1973)

OK maybe this was the first one for Island, I dunno.

Burning is a better album, mainly. Concrete Jungle, Slave Driver and 400 Years are a good opener, but not really amazing. Stir It Up is the only one people really know, isn't it? (I like that there are two tracks with vocals by Peter Tosh though, that's good).

I was excited about the "Jamaican version" of Catch A Fire which Island put out in 2001, but it mainly just sounds like unfinished versions of the released one, with louder bass. (I.e. not as "yard" as I had been lead to believe). The only exception is Stir It Up which has that incredible synth sound on it like with the Old Grey Whistle Test version mentioned upthread.

Kinky Reggae is particularly shite, I mean if you're gonna do lewd you might as well go for the full Max Romeo "Wet Dream" experience and not this:

Uh, ah-oh-oh! I went downtown, (I went downtown)
I saw Miss Brown; (said, I saw Miss Brown)
She had brown sugar (had brown sugar)
All over her booga-wooga. (over her booga-wooga)


Also intrigued by the reference to Piccadilly Circus in a later verse:

I went down to Piccadilly Circus; (ooh-ooh-ooh)
Down there I saw Marcus: (oo-oo-oo-ooh)
He had a candy tar (ooh-ooh-ooh)
All over his chocolate bar. (oo-oo-oo-ooh)

Not sure if Bob knew about the "meat rack" at Piccadilly Circus in those days? The "Take It Or Leave It" tolerance of Kinky Reggae is out of kilter with apocalyptic Midnight Ravers which starts with:

Do-do-do. Do-do-do. Do-do-do.
(You can't tell the woman from the man)
No, I say you can't, 'cause they're dressed in the same pollution;
(dressed in the same pollution)
Their mind is confused with confusion

As with Burning this rawer version of "Slave Driver" (live from the same period) is better:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qmOazWheq4

And just to continue my riff on "good songs mangled by Island" there is this 1980 version done proper by Gregory alongside Sly and Robbie:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvkR_zIMm4w

Also this (relick, earlier version?) of 400 Years by Peter Tosh is better:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-wBWZm3quQ

Next up: Natty Dread.

john eden
11-06-2018, 07:36 PM
Feel free to join in, by the way (and feel free not to).

646

Natty Dread (1974) is a superb album. So screw you, hipsters.

Full fat sound with Sylvan Morris (Harry J and Studio One) on the desk.

The I-Threes are sensational. Whatever the merits of Tosh and Bunny's later work, the I-Threes are good swap.

Some great little touches - I like the early drum machine stuff biz on No Woman No Cry and So Jah Sey. (The latter is basically a take on the drums on Lee Perry's "Dub Revolution", no?). No Woman No Cry sounds a bit more urgent here than the more famous live version.

Bend Down Low is actually an improvement to my mind on the older "classic" pre-Island version.

So, blimey, this is the one that they got right, eh?

Next up: Rastaman Vibration

droid
11-06-2018, 08:15 PM
Interested to see where this goes next. I reckon you could make a pretty good album from Vibration, Kaya, Exodus and Uprising if you took out all the chaff.

Numbers
11-06-2018, 08:32 PM
Yes, very interesting. Never thought so actually.

padraig (u.s.)
12-06-2018, 12:10 AM
Add me to the list of people very much enjoying John Eden Rethinks the Classics

don't have much interest in joining in on Marley, but if you wanna do U.S. hardcore at some point - as you mentioned having gone thru some of that canon - sign me up 110%

actually, and perhaps this is only b/c I've recently finally surrendered to podcasts, I think there's the makings of a pretty good Dissensus podcast there

at the point in life of being able to appreciate/evaluate things (mostly) without their subcultural detritus, but still lots of strong, highly dissimilar opinions

idk how that would work technically but I'm sure it could be sorted out pretty easily

padraig (u.s.)
12-06-2018, 12:17 AM
I reckon you could make a pretty good album from Vibration, Kaya, Exodus and Uprising if you took out all the chaff.
this is interesting in re: Island-era Wailers as basically the reggae version of classic rock, b/c that's exactly how I feel about Zeppelin, for example

like, you'd never want to listen a full LP all the way thru but you could make a killer mixtape from their first 6 albums - all the funk, crunch, proto-heavy sludge, none of the embarrassing interludes about hobbits, acoustic guitar filler, extended drum solos, etc. and that's probably how I feel about most of the big classic rock bands. I think maybe the era just lent itself to self-indulgence and filler.

luka
12-06-2018, 06:54 AM
"Retrieval is not simply a matter of the hauling the old thing back onto stage, holus-bolus. Some transformation or metamorphosis is necessary to place it into relation with the new ground... the old thing is brought up-to-date as it were."

that's Mcluhan talking about Balearic and whatever

john eden
14-06-2018, 08:18 PM
647

Rastaman Vibration (1976)

A step backwards from the peaks of Natty Dread.

Apparently there is some meta light/dark concept going on with this one, but frankly it's half great and half shite.

Awesome:

Positive Vibration -
Roots, Rock, Reggae -
Crazy Baldhead - not as good as this (https://tinyurl.com/yco5cuft), obviously, but what is?
Night Shift - shout out to all warehouse crew! Apparently inspired by his brief stint in a car factory in the US.
War - again, it's great to hear this as a studio version rather than the overplayed live one. IMO.
Rat Race

Rubbish:

Johnny Was
Cry To Me
Want More
Who The Cap Fit (I know people rate this, but I think it's dreary)

I will challenge anyone who disagrees with me to a fight* outside the where Centerprise** used to be in Dalston.

I was trying to figure out WTF was happening with the writing credits for these songs and apparently Bob credited a bunch of his mates or people he owed stuff to, possibly because he hated his publishing company.

Tosh and Bunny released their classic LPs in 1976 also, which I will get to eventually.

Also some of my favourite ever reggae vocal LPs:

The Gladiators - Trenchtown Mix Up (including two superb Marley covers - Bellyful and Soul Rebel)
The Mighty Diamonds - Right Time
Max Romeo - War Inna Babylon

Plus deejay business from Big Youth, Tappa Zukie and dubwise you have King Tubby Meets Rockers Uptown AND Super Ape.

An amazing year for music, but really Rastaman Vibration is a junior partner, unless you see it in its correct context. Which is that Bob was a gateway drug for a lot of people which allowed them to explore and find those other albums.

Next up: Exodus!

*Not really. Be interested to know if people really like the tracks I hate, actually.
**Andy Martin of The Apostles once used a fanzine to challenge a whole bunch of people he didn't like (including former teachers) to a fight outside Centerprise

Matthew
15-06-2018, 07:20 AM
Feel free to join in, by the way (and feel free not to).

Natty Dread (1974) is a superb album. So screw you, hipsters.


YEAH BABY! it's a brilliant LP.

looking forward to your thoughts on *exodus* which (from memory at least) is some very kosmic shit. fabulous production.

i first heard it in morocco in a funny little record store. i think they taped a copy for me - that kinda scene where you buy a recording of the LP

and LIVE is very good. a live reggae recording - in itself that's ^wrong^ but such a great atmosphere.

will dig out lloyd bradley's reminiscence of meeting marley as a door manager - very powerful.

droid
15-06-2018, 08:45 AM
Not too keen on live myself, dunno if its even in the top 5 of live reggae albums, which includes:

https://resources.wimpmusic.com/images/d81711fd/e661/4d98/a65e/da193e012207/320x320.jpg
https://www.reggaerecord.com/rc/shared_img/item/246476/246476_01_360.jpg

john eden
19-06-2018, 07:34 PM
648

Exodus (1977)

Maybe it's my ears but this is the album where you can hear Bob from Trenchtown becoming Bob Marley the international superstar. Also worth noting that this is the mid point of the Island studio albums (5th out of 9).

The title track is a flippin' juggernaut of a tune which rightly deserves the "classic" label.

Natural Mystic and So Much Things To Say are great openers. Solid. I mean I won't be busting them out through the car window but it's hard to deny their appeal.

I'd never heard Guiltiness or The Heathen before and have no desire to again forgettable filler.

Can't really unhear / have never liked / unforgiveable: Jamming, Turn Your Lights Down Low, One Love/People Get Ready

Three Little Birds - just a great piano riff and stupidly positive message, nursery rhyme style. Undeniable.

Waiting In Vain was the real surprise here - I love it despite myself. I don't think Bob is convincing as a balladeer but this just got to me - I had to play it several times over to figure out whether or not I really liked it. But even the cheesy guitar solo is great. The three "knocks" that go with those lyrics are awesomely silly.

Overall - better than most but not as good as "Natty Dread".

Back a yard:

Culture - Two Sevens Clash (obviously)
Heart of the Congos
Yabby You - Deliver Me From My Enemies
Prince Far I - Under Heavy Manners
Dennis Brown - Wolf & Leopards
Horace Andy - In The Light

and

Junior Murvin - Police and Thieves, which came out on Upsetter in JA and Island in the UK...

Next up: Kaya!

baboon2004
19-06-2018, 08:38 PM
Rubbish:

Johnny Was
Cry To Me
Want More
Who The Cap Fit (I know people rate this, but I think it's dreary)

I will challenge anyone who disagrees with me to a fight* outside the where Centerprise** used to be in Dalston.


I love Johnny Was - backing vocals! I even loved the remix with Guru on it. Violence it is then.

(Gladiator's Soul Rebel is one of my favourites too)

An interesting aside about the album from Wikipedia that I wasn't aware of: "Although the album's liner notes list multiple songwriters, including family friends and band members, all songs were written by Marley. Marley was involved in a contractual dispute at the time with his former publishing company, Cayman music. Marley had not wanted his new songs to be associated with Cayman and it was speculated, including in his obituary in The Independent, that he had put them in the names of his friends and family members as a means of avoiding the contractual restrictions and to provide lasting help to family and close friends."

version
19-06-2018, 08:39 PM
This thread is encouraging me to reevaluate Bob Marley. I still hate Redemption Song though.

baboon2004
19-06-2018, 08:49 PM
can't stand that one either. the terror of someone busting out the acoustic guitar and 'covering' it haunts many.

Corpsey
19-06-2018, 09:24 PM
I rate all the cheese songs except turn your lights down low

Jamming is forever pleasantly associated for me with Chief Wiggum getting stoned

john eden
21-06-2018, 06:33 PM
644

Kaya 1978

Girls and Ganja are some of the finest things in life, so why is this album about them utter rubbish?

I've listened to it about 5 times now and I have very little to say about it I'm afraid. It's blandly mellow in ways which just irritate me. There is a baneful blues/rock influence which I hate.

The big tunes "Is This Love" and "Satisfy My Soul" are as meh as I remember them.

"Sun Is Shining" is just about OK here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQQpkll5aoA

But this Lee Perry cut from 1971 is like going up 3 gears at once:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_L-zMnn7sA

That lowkey skank and the harmonica slay, whereas the Kaya version is just warm and fuggy (in a bad way). I'd go as far to as to say that I'd prefer to listen to the dodgy garage remix from 1999 than the Kaya version again.

The rest of the album just seems like filler to me. If others disagree then speak up!

Back a yard in 1978:

Hugh Mundell - Africa Must Be Free by 1983
Gregory Isaacs - Cool Ruler
Gregory Isaacs - Mr Isaacs
Dennis Brown - Visions
Sugar Minott - Black Roots
Prince Alla - Heaven Is My Roof

Also East of the River Nile, African Dub Ch 3 and Return of the Super Ape.

Next up: Survival

droid
21-06-2018, 08:07 PM
Sun is shining was my first adolescent inkling that there was something up with Marley. Id heard the Perry version on a mix tape I was lent and it blew me away and when I sought it out later I could only find the Kaya version and was left wondering if I'd imagined the wickedness of the original.

john eden
21-06-2018, 10:25 PM
Part of the hunt, that! Those early days when you dunno what you’re doing. Frustrating but good times. I always ended up with odd digital do-overs of tunes I was after.

droid
21-06-2018, 10:35 PM
But also, so fucking difficult back in the day. Taping LP's from your best friend's big brother. Listening to radio religiously, desperate for hints. It was like groping in the dark back then. We didnt even have Peel.

droid
21-06-2018, 10:37 PM
I bought a digital tuner in 1996 so I could get BBC and record Goldfinger shows onto minidisc. It was the only way i could hear dancehall.

john eden
21-06-2018, 11:12 PM
To be fair, you have made up for it since.

john eden
24-06-2018, 02:10 PM
643

Survival (1979)

In JA "the dances were changing" and one criticism levelled against BMW by reggae nerds is that their music was completely detached from what was happening back a yard.

It's not as simple as that though. I mean, for starters most of these LPs are recorded at Tuff Gong, 56 Hope Road, Kingston. This one was mixed there as well.

Survival opens with two belters: "Wake Up And Live" & "Africa Unite". Quality tunes laid on a rock solid foundation of spongy bubbling bass etc which could be straight out of the Sly and Robbie playbook. The drums still have a way to go - clearly Island would have had no truck with fashionable syndrum "peeooow peeoow" biznis. But there is a tinge of early dancehall vibes here. Wake Up and Live is also presumably the lyrical inspiration for Tenor Saw's "Lots of Signs".

Side one also includes "One Drop" & "Ride Natty Ride" which have good lyrics but are a bit schmaltzy in comparison. (The former has a half decent dub version which isn't on the album.)

"Ambush In The Night" has a great chorus and must be one of the few tunes ever made about an actual attempted political assassination of the artist. It's impossible to disentangle the music from the man, really - I know I'm trying to be all objective about it but when they overlap like this you have to just sit down and shut up.

The same is true of the track "Zimbabwe". Other reggae artists had lyrically supported Rhodesia's struggle for independence but it was Bob Marley and the Wailers who performed their song at the independence celebration in 1980. (Apparently Survival's message of black struggle and African unity was censored in South Africa...)

"So Much Trouble In The World" is the big hit here I guess? I am fine with that - it's lovely and timeless - and also the only Bob Marley tune to feature on a mix I've done (with Paul Meme - Grimey Reggae - c/w the Mercston version).

The rest is... alright.

Overall - pretty great actually.

Back a yard in 1979:

Barrington Levy - Shaolin Temple / Bounty Hunter / Englishman
Freddie McGregor - Bobby Bobylon
Johnny Osbourne - Truth and Rights
Black Uhuru - Showcase
Sugar Minott - Showcase
Wailing Souls - Wild Suspense
Gregory Isaacs - Soon Forward

and much deejay business.

Next up: Uprising

john eden
24-06-2018, 02:27 PM
can't stand that one either. the terror of someone busting out the acoustic guitar and 'covering' it haunts many.

I couldn't even get to the end of this 12 minute acoustic medley by the man himself:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iYh49zq_F8

luka
24-06-2018, 05:49 PM
saw a woman in a Bob Marley onesie going to (Baptist) church today.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMtiGLffVm4

baboon2004
24-06-2018, 05:50 PM
That is awful.

I like the first side of Kaya though. It's rock-reggae for sure, but sometimes that's ok

luka
24-06-2018, 05:55 PM
whats awful? sacrilegious? or you just dont like that tune? i thought she looked great btw

baboon2004
25-06-2018, 07:38 PM
Sacrilege in the House of the Lord.

Nah I meant the acoustic medley was awful.

Does make one ponder what the worst music related onesie would be though.

john eden
27-06-2018, 06:42 PM
654

Uprising (1980)

Island must have loved Marley. Sure, he was cantankerous and a womaniser and demanded all kinds of bonkers cancer treatments that didn't work, but he delivered them at least one platinum selling album per year from 1973 to 1980.

"Coming In From The Cold" and "Bad Card" are both excellent and I am glad I have them in my life. Solid.

"Real Situation" is probably only worthy of comment because of the "total destruction the only solution" lyric. A nice phrase which is a good 'nuum signifier: referenced by Mad Cobra on a soundclash tape and then sampled by DJ Scud for his "Total Destruction" anthem on Maschinenbau. (Repress soon come).

"We And Dem", "Work", and "Zion Train" are just average.

"Pimpers Paradise" does that awful 70s rock thing where the lyrics are some middle aged man perving over a fallen woman with a thin veneer of social concern. It reminds me of something Rod Stewart would do in his later years. The I-Threes singing "Every Need Got An Ego To Feed" is great though and I like imagining that they are sending Bob daggers at the same time because they have had enough of his bullshit for one day.

Let's not fuck around though. There are actually only two tracks on the this album:

1. "Could You Be Loved" is possibly one of the most incredibly joyous tunes ever recorded - it's so good I think it actually stands outside of the Marley oeuvre in some weird space disco utopia that doubles up as the ultimate wedding party you're every going to go to. I mean, I'm sure your latest post-garage avant dance underground banger is great and all, but it's not as good as this, is it? The 12" is also excellent.

2. "Redemption Song" is exactly what is wrong with Marley in one song isn't it? THIS is where the irritating white dread with terrible tattoos gets the idea of busting out the acoustic guitar and fake patois. I mean, yes, there is that Saxon soundtape where Tippa does a riff on the "pirates rob I" line to tear into people ripping off lyrics and YES it probably is quite heart rending and inspiring the first time you hear it as an impressionable youth. But that was a long time ago. And I can't unhear the crimes committed against music in its name by buskers now.

I tell you what though - there's a "band" version of "Redemption Song" at the end of some CDs and it sounds EVEN WORSE, like an awful covers band doing their one reggae tune.

Overall - excellent if you can prune the hell out of it in a playlist.

Back a yard in 1980:

Barrington Levy - Robin Hood
Black Uhuru - Sinsemilla
Gregory Isaacs - Lonely Lover
Johnny Osborne - Fally Lover
Michael Prophet - Righteous Are The Conqueror

The first Scientist LPs...

Next up: Confrontation

Corpsey
27-06-2018, 10:42 PM
Could You Be Loved is 5 stars

I'd pick that or Waiting in Vain as my favourite Marley choon

Honourable mention to Trenchtown Rock

And many others waiting in the wings

Corpsey
27-06-2018, 10:43 PM
This thread confirms that white blokes with accoustic guitars destroyed Marley's legacy for white blokes without accoustic guitars :crylarf:

john eden
28-06-2018, 07:11 AM
This thread confirms that white blokes with accoustic guitars destroyed Marley's legacy for white blokes without accoustic guitars :crylarf:

Heh!

droid
28-06-2018, 09:31 AM
Could You Be Loved is 5 stars

I'd pick that or Waiting in Vain as my favourite Marley choon

Honourable mention to Trenchtown Rock

And many others waiting in the wings

Trenchtown rock! Perhaps the greatest opening lyric in all of music.

john eden
01-07-2018, 08:04 PM
655

Confrontation (1983)

The posthumous album. A quick read of the wiki page suggests that a fair bit of work had to be done on this without Bob to finish it off.

Clearly the "confrontation" in mind is something weighter than a dubwise battle at a soundclash. The front cover is some weird Revelations-level stuff and apparently the inside cover depicts a military battle between Ethiopia and Italy in 1896.

"Chant Down Babylon" is okaaaaaay. It does weirdly sound like a rock band doing reggae though? Not quite sure why that is because I am rubbish at musicological analysis.

"Buffalo Soldier" is the single and I actually remember this coming out and being on Top of The Pops with a moody black and white montage video. It's not great, really. A lot of the album works reasonably well as jaunty stadium rock reggae. If you were hitching back in the day and someone put this on you'd be quite happy compared to some of the other nonsense you might have to pretend to enjoy.

"Mix Up Mix Up" is terrible - cheesy dated synth sounds and Bob's voice sounds all strangulated.

"Rastaman Live Up!" jogs along in an appealing way - but nothing much happens.

Not a great way to finish, but hey.

Back a yard in 1983:

Yellowman ‎– Zungguzungguguzungguzeng
John Holt - Police In Helicopter
Johnny Osbourne ‎– Water Pumping

Dancehall in full swing. If you look at the Dub Vendor charts for 1983 there are a bunch of live dancehall session LPs in there:
https://tapirs.home.xs4all.nl/1983.htm (and Dub LPs by Scientist, Mad Professor...)

Also some serious non-Bob commercial reggae on Island:

Black Uhuru - Anthem
Gregory Isaacs - Out Deh! ("Night Nurse" has been released in 1982)

On A&M:

Dennis Brown ‎– The Prophet Rides Again (largely terrible iirc?)
UB40 - Labour of Love

I think in the UK at least there is an argument that UB40 became the one reggae act a lot of people liked after that...

Next up: a quick summing up!

Benny B
01-07-2018, 10:30 PM
Thoroughly enjoyed these round ups, John, but no Live! ? That was my intro to bob and reggae and I reckon it still sounds great, so vibey.

john eden
02-07-2018, 11:56 AM
Thoroughly enjoyed these round ups, John, but no Live! ? That was my intro to bob and reggae and I reckon it still sounds great, so vibey.

Thanks! I just wanted to get through all the studio albums first, but I think you are right about "Live!" - some of the Live tracks are the definitive ones for people.

Probably "Babylon By Bus" should be squeezed in somehow too.

Matthew
04-07-2018, 08:05 AM
Thanks! I just wanted to get through all the studio albums first, but I think you are right about "Live!" - some of the Live tracks are the definitive ones for people.

Probably "Babylon By Bus" should be squeezed in somehow too.

thanks john. really enjoyed this. can you make a spotify playlist of your faves?

luka
04-07-2018, 07:41 PM
https://twitter.com/bobmarley/statuses/488746510771712000?tw_i=488746510771712000&tw_e=details&tw_p=archive

droid
29-07-2018, 10:04 PM
Was at a dance last night and one of the selectors snuck in 'So much trouble' - version first, and it sounded great.

It's easy to forget what these tunes are supposed to sound like. Completely different animal with sound system bass.