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pattycakes_
07-11-2018, 05:50 PM
'Deep' means different things to different people. Let's have a thread where we post a piece of deep music and talk a bit about what makes it deep to you and why you like it.

I'll start with one of my favourite recordings of all time

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esuia43tJUI

Found this on a La Monte Young themed post back in the glory days of music blogs. It's the 2nd disc of a 2 cd set. Recorded in August '76 by La Monte and his wife Marian. The sound quality is definitely not high, but it's totally raw and intimate which only adds to the sense of depth imo. The resonant saw waves from the tamburas played by La Monte and Marian lightly buzz and flange across the surface of my brain. The minimal tabla playing acting like off kilter punctuation. Texture more than rhythm. The rich and ancient voice of Pran Nath, a practicioner of the Kirana gharana (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirana_gharana) singing style. Just totally focused and in the zone of raga Malkauns. They say it's one of the oldest ragas. Usually played late at night, and has dark connotations related to spirits and evil. I've read some people say it's for expelling bad spirits and others say it attracts them. Either way it's a heady ass brew. Something about the physicality of the recording makes this one special for me. The old 'you feel like you're in the room' thing applies. You can hear the frailty of his aged body combined with the sheer force of nature coming from his lungs being pushed up through his throat. Something you only earn with a lifetime of dedication to your craft.

Extra points for the included cough.

Edit: So aside from the above, which are mostly aesthetic points, I can say that this is one of the few recordings that has ever sent me into an altered state without any additional factors. So many recordings claim to do this. So few of them actually do. I've searched high and low for this effect in recorded music. Most of the time it either takes a live performance or a very loud soundsystem. In those situations it's obviously much easier to get carried away with whatevers going on. But much more rare for me is to find a recorded piece that manages to give the same effect. And ofc there's plenty of psychedelic music out there. Let's say, Spacemen 3 who spun those wonderful sheets of tripping electrical power, which I've drifted off to plenty of times. Repetition/droning often a common factor in deep music. But I don't know if I ever felt like I entered an altered state from SM3. Or Can, or Yahowa or whoever else in that higher plane of psyched out music. Those musics all imply the state, were clearly inspired by the state, and with the help of substances can certainly enhance and guide the state. But to take you there sober? Idk. It's rare.

I played the Pran Nath to this poet from Japan once. (not to brag that I have that kind of lifestyle.) She had this set of tuning forks hand-carved out of a specific metal only obtainable in one mountain in Japan, and she would play one of the forks and then recite her poetry to me in Japanese. One time she asked me to play the drums for her. Just a freestyle improv. At the end of it she said 'very good. now for the next week, only play snare'. The way she said it. Totally unpretentious, unjaded. She just knew that's what was needed to be done to progress. Not being precious or trying to be profound. Just an approach to music, performance and art in general that I feel we could do with a little bit more of. Kind of wish I'd kept in touch with her. Anyway, when I played the Nath to her I never saw anyone sit for a full hour with their eyes closed listening so intently to a piece of music from beginning to end like that. She had a spiritual moment with it. There's no other way to describe it. She wanted to listen to it again straight away when it had finished. I'm starting to be of the belief that you're either in tune with this shit or you're not. It either does this to you or it doesn't. I don't know what it takes to get there. But I think I'm a full blown season ticket holder when it comes to chasing moments of transcendence through various means and methods. Music is my favourite of all. Deep music. Deep for me is speaking to and from the human soul. It's about truth, knowledge and love. (yeah) Somehow Pandit Pran Nath's voice in combination with those shimmering drones from La Monte and Marian embody those three pillars of consciousness for me in a way that supercedes the kaleidoscope theatrics of substances. It's an earth sound. Pandit Pran Nath used to sit on a little island in the middle of a river practising his singing for days at a time. For years and years. Seeking within himself. Trying to master his instrument. I didn't know any of this before I listened to it, but when I started to research it I realized that it only made sense that this would have taken that kind of dedication to get to that point in your abilities. He went deep.

Corpsey
13-11-2018, 11:47 AM
I like your description of this but I don't know that it explains why it's 'deep.

Mind you I am so tired it feels like I'm drunk

Corpsey
13-11-2018, 12:05 PM
Is it deep because there's layers to this shit?

pattycakes_
14-11-2018, 04:13 AM
Right you are. Updated.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MK6pVP1sEI

DJ Sprinkles is a master in the dark arts of deep. Favouring long-form expression. Whether it be long, slow, subtle tracks, or her extended blend mixing where you're never quite sure when the last track ended and the next one began. Highly psychedelic. All appears to come so effortlessly. Never trying to grab your attention. Just laying the grounds for any heads who may be in tune and willing. Willing to get sucked into the bowels of her vortex. It's seductive, dark and somehow familiar. No new ground being trodden. Just an exploration of another angle on what is already well established. Naive as it may sound, the fact that the messages underneath it all are serious expressions of a person's struggle with her reality make it all the more substantial/deep for me. Honesty is rare in uber-cool club land. Contemplating among other things; gender, what happened to dance music, the club experience as an outsider, etc etc. With that all acknowledged she sounds extra purposeful in her seemingly casual approach to desconstructing the well known tropes and sounds of 90s New York house. The way the tracks are layered. Percussion loops fading in and out. Those vocal samples you've heard before but can't remember where. The dark, brooding piano chords. And those tantalizing basslines. I could have chosen so many other tracks as an example. But this one came on shuffle while I was walking through the city center of SP today and caught me off guard. The interplay of the basses, calling and responding to each other. Only to be echoed by some arabic sounding string instrument later on. These are the delicious hooks that keep me hanging on, waiting for the next hit. And it's that particular bass sound she uses so often that does it. That hollow squared bass. Ubiquitous throughout house. Totally over used in the 'deep house' you find on beatport nowadays. In more extreme forms, it's known as the donk. This is the sound I think of when I think of Sprinkles. At once sounding like a hollowed out log being struck, and at the same time totally digital and alien. I can't find many words to explain why this sound means so much and has such a strong effect on me after all these years. But it does. Often all I need is a dreamy, cosmic pad, a dab of slinking percussion, the occasional vocal and a hollowed out log square bass to get me in the zone. Sprinkles mastered this sound, and for me is the queen of deep house in the post-apocalyptic farce we're calling club land. With Sprinkles, context is as important as content.

padraig (u.s.)
14-11-2018, 06:50 AM
She had a spiritual moment with it. There's no other way to describe it. She wanted to listen to it again straight away when it had finished. I'm starting to be of the belief that you're either in tune with this shit or you're not. It either does this to you or it doesn't. I don't know what it takes to get there. But I think I'm a full blown season ticket holder when it comes to chasing moments of transcendence through various means and methods. Music is my favourite of all. Deep music. Deep for me is speaking to and from the human soul. It's about truth, knowledge and love. (yeah)
that is it - that whole passage is it - that is my central experiential kick in a sentence - chasing fleeting moments of transcendence

not everyone is seeking it in music, but everyone is seeking it in some way - it's another way of saying what gives life existential meaning beyond the material

pushing back against being swallowed up by the mundanities of day-to-day life

why as soon as people in culture have met their basic survival needs, they've invariably devoted some portion of their energy to cultural expression (art)

for me music, certain psychedelic drug experiences, and certain kinds of physical activity - previously martial arts, more recently weightlifting etc

when it comes to music I'm loosely looking for what you're looking for, insomuch as such a personal thing coincides

when it comes to physical activity it's more about striving for unattainable perfection of form or movement as an ideal - always competing against yourself

in all cases seeking those moments that transcend everything, including - especially - all vestiges of the self

padraig (u.s.)
14-11-2018, 06:59 AM
I thought that anecdote about the Japanese poet was very good. very Bjork - not precious or pretentious (tho easy to surface read that way, with probably a large nod to ingrained sexist notions about artist eccentricity etc) - but that kind of intentionality. she - Bjork - has a quote that has been very meaningful to me about making art influenced by real life, and how for art to be truly great it has to transcend art to become real life. it's - I have to disagree with her in part, because some people have to hold down the genre-structures so people like her can use them as launch ramps to the outer limits - but still, that way of expressing the ultimate goal of transcendence. I don't have that inherent gift of intentionality, it's something I have to work at it. one of those things unattainable ideals to strive toward.

padraig (u.s.)
14-11-2018, 07:00 AM
(also, let's just be honest, "I played Pandit Pran Nath to this poet from Japan once" is a pretty sick lifestyle humblebrag)

padraig (u.s.)
14-11-2018, 07:16 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CP5sMVLcpB0
right, anyway

this is in that Nath/LMY/Zazeela - Wada another of Nath's many, many NYC students - but equally in the post-Cage Fluxus tradition

so looser - in a way it feels to me like a very direct response to 4'33" - without that underlying depth of technical form mastery

but it feels to me just as deep in another way

reaching back to a tradition even more ancient than Nath's raga - a prehistoric tradition, maybe imprinted at a folk consciousness level

chthonic depths - literally as the name says the powers of the earth, of literal physical depths

as well as the rumbling depth of the sonic frequencies

the horns an even more primal - which isn't to say deeper, or better, or whatever, just more primal - mechanism of transportation than Nath's voice

to me a late night record not with connotations of evil, but to a time before the conception of good and evil

whereas raga - not keep counterposing them - is in a religious tradition of some kind, this dates back to a time before a religion

a time when there were nature gods in everything - animals, rivers, wind, etc including those chthonic deities of the earth

luka
14-11-2018, 10:19 AM
This thread is difficult for me cos I can't work out if I approve or if im horrified. The deep is not a word I particularly approve of and transcendence I tend to think of as a false ceiling,however what you are describing is important.

Its slowing the time pulse and the rate and intensity of stimuli so the anxious surface social self is stilled and other, older selves, the selves without faces, can shuffle onto the stage.

luka
14-11-2018, 06:09 PM
"They are gateways onto what heronbone used to call 'slowtime' a time of meditative detachment from the commotions of the current"

Thats my one mention in the published Mark Fisher ouevre. It's half right. Its not so much about detachment though as it is about changing the focal point of the attention. Moving it away from pachinko machines of constant distraction and dopamine hacking to access the slower, steadier pulse.

I do think this is vital even if the word 'deep' is freighted with so much bad luggage. Teenage psueds and dubstep producers.

droid
14-11-2018, 10:27 PM
https://youtu.be/HiCicAf8Vd4

pattycakes_
14-11-2018, 10:58 PM
tnx 4 the contributions padraig and droid. gonna listen to the full hour of padraig's later. droid, if you can find a few words to go with your track that would be welcome. am enjoying it muchly. dunno if it's the picture or the drum programming but it has a militaristic vibe to me.. anyway, why is it deep to you?

luka, nvm the misuse of words. let go of stigmas and fkn transcend the verbal cage to play along in whatever way you see fit. dare ya. slowing down is a good shout. that's definitely a bit part of the effect i get from the PPN in the OP.

is depth (or whatever noun works for you) something you actively seek in music?

padraig (u.s.)
15-11-2018, 03:12 AM
I can't work out
well like the man said, you're either in tune or you're not

entirely possible you're just tuned to a different wavelength, seeking your kick elsewhere

in fact after witnessing your kneejerk horror at Henry Flynt, one of the deepest cats ever to walk the earth (and another Nath student) I'm pretty much sure of it

which is fine, of course

I can't speak wholly for cakes but I'm not talking just talking about slowness or stillness, nor quietude or submersion

those are possible expressions of deepness but they don't equate to the whole deepness

there are other kinds of depth - the depth of crushing weight. the harsh depth of the abyss.

the unifying factor is transcendent change

and on transcendence - anything can be a false ceiling if you make it a false ceiling. it's just shorthand anyway.

padraig (u.s.)
15-11-2018, 03:13 AM
idc what luggage "deep" has either. deep predates styles. it predates recorded music. it predates "music".

this is a place where we talk about music so we happen to be discussing depth in music

but it's like the other threads where people get caught up in the psychedelic as a particular style, rather than a mode

padraig (u.s.)
15-11-2018, 03:57 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjkjF9OfMe0
continuing in the vein of the Wada piece above

similarly protean - in his original sense as the earliest god of the waters, unseeable, unknowable depths and immutability - raw unformed mater

the droning background - the earth without form, and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep

and as the other strings come in - the spirit of god moving upon the face of the waters

padraig (u.s.)
15-11-2018, 04:07 AM
a trve head like droid would scoff but to me that 4 minutes accomplishes what Eno spent his whole ambient career trying and failing to do

(tbf it also makes redundant people I actually rate like Riley and Glass. to be further fair, it is buried in the middle of hours of unlistenable bombast)

also relevant would be Nico's solo records, specifically the droning harmonium parts of the Marble Index-The End-Desertshore trilogy

both reaching back to harness the power of older European folk traditions

no mistake this Wagner piece comes from an opera cycle devoted to Germanic myth, the semihistorical period where myth was being captured and transmuted into history

also an object lesson of the dangers of reaching back to the protean, which can be shaped into anything

in this case obsession with purity, superiority - fetishization of a mythical prelapsarian Europe

but the weight of that and drive of those traditions also gives them immense power as art - I could listen to that Wagner piece 10,000 times in a row

padraig (u.s.)
15-11-2018, 04:08 AM
have a few more varied examples in mind, gonna try to do one a night - harder to do more cos of the thought they require

luka
15-11-2018, 08:40 AM
I like and listen to most of these records but again, I wouldn't associate them with depth but with surface. The exact opposite of depth.
Equally I don't associate them with transcendence but with immanence. There's no striving in them.

Again I experience them as slowness and stillness which allow us to key into what is here, not what lies beyond.

I might be misunderstanding the thrust of the discussion though. Explain it to me a bit more.

Corpsey
15-11-2018, 10:47 AM
'Depth' as mental/emotional sophistication vs. 'Depth' as a sort of spatial description of sound

luka
15-11-2018, 10:54 AM
'Depth' as mental/emotional sophistication vs. 'Depth' as a sort of spatial description of sound

Ah, right. Now we're getting somewhere. Important distinction.

Corpsey
15-11-2018, 12:16 PM
"Deep" in dance music is often synonymous with jazzy.

Jazzy chords that hover between happy and sad. There's emotional shading to that sort of suspended chord, which perhaps is where "depth" comes from, as a spatial descriptor.

Corpsey
15-11-2018, 12:19 PM
But it's also synonymous with reverb. The more echo there is, the more likely it is to be "deep". Because it gives the illusion of actual spatial depth in the music. A chord with no reverb will sound flat. Perhaps filtration also adds depth, because again it emphasizes sound as something physical.

Re: emotional sophistication, it can also mean not just emotions complicated, but also emotions that are relatively uncomplicated but are assigned a higher place on the "depth" totem. Melancholy is somewhere near the top. Joyfulness is somewhere near the bottom.

droid
15-11-2018, 01:12 PM
There must be depth for one to fall in.

luka
15-11-2018, 02:10 PM
The depth totem is a great phrase. Obviously the metaphor is spatial. Why? What's the topography heee?

luka
15-11-2018, 02:51 PM
As I said earlier for me it has to be about going beneath the surface, lifting the veil of maya, peeling back the face and finding what older principles and forces are in operation. The algorithms which generate the world of appearances.

Corpsey
15-11-2018, 02:52 PM
The depth totem is a great phrase. Obviously the metaphor is spatial. Why? What's the topography heee?

The standard assignment of certain emotions and states to "high" and others to "low" - perhaps this is where one notion of "depth" comes from - because being happy is considered somehow frivolous, naive, empty headed?

Emotions that are considered - have been produced by consideration, and produce consideration - nostalgia, wistfulness, cosmic awe... are deep emotions. Anger in response to stubbing your toe, or happy because you got a handjob, are powerful but so to speak shallow emotions.

luka
15-11-2018, 03:00 PM
What do you think the physiological basis of this is? There's a corresponding metaphor of weight here isnt there. The heavy vs the light. Sinking vs floating. Spring in the step vs heavy heart.

luka
15-11-2018, 03:02 PM
The substantial vs the lightweight. Also ties in to the melancholy and the notion of the humours. Thomas Burton and Durer. Saturn.

Corpsey
15-11-2018, 03:45 PM
The substantial vs the lightweight. Also ties in to the melancholy and the notion of the humours. Thomas Burton and Durer. Saturn.

'Deep' music will tend to be slower, too - slowness associated with weight, heft... But perhaps also with contemplativeness.

Leo
15-11-2018, 04:32 PM
when I think of deep dance tracks, I think of things like...

https://soundcloud.com/piga73/00-dj-sprinkles-sisters-i-dont

and

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fL7BrXTDet8

pattycakes_
15-11-2018, 04:38 PM
there's definitely a correlation between the sense of being underwater/underground and a sense of depth. just a guess but, i wonder if it has anything to do with us subconsciously associating it with being in the womb. the most immersive experience we ever lived. being totally covered by flesh and water. pressure from every angle. all the sounds we heard were muted and deep. the drone of the blood rushing around our mother's veins. the muffled beat of her heart. time was slow and we were probably feeling pretty good. maybe not happy. just secure (in a meditative way) in the squishy solidity of it all. keep meaning to look up what chemicals arebeing released when we're in there. wouldn't be surprised if there are some psychs involved.

luka
15-11-2018, 09:17 PM
Im wondering if I experience depth. I'm thinking probably not. What does it feel like? Can you describe it as a state?

blissblogger
15-11-2018, 09:28 PM
if all Wagner was like that or 'Valkyries', then i would love Wagner

unfortunately there's some bird shrieking at the top of her lungs most of the time

blissblogger
15-11-2018, 09:31 PM
the Wagner made me think of two things that feel 'deep' to me, suggestive of unfathomable mystery and immeasurable majesty


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKaOe3_sdOo

blissblogger
15-11-2018, 09:32 PM
and the other one


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSJub1A1aIk

luka
15-11-2018, 09:38 PM
Is it fair to say vagueness is an integral part of the deep? Something just on the brink of the perceivable? Suggestive of our own limits. The face of the god you can't look at without being destroyed? Something which resists language by being only imperfectly realised?

Corpsey
15-11-2018, 09:39 PM
the Wagner made me think of two things that feel 'deep' to me, suggestive of unfathomable mystery and immeasurable majesty


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKaOe3_sdOo

Koningforst is the perfect soundtrack to sitting outside in nature and dropping acid. In my experience. Which makes sense, as he made it to commemorate dropping acid in the black forest in Germany as a yoot.

pattycakes_
15-11-2018, 09:40 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CP5sMVLcpB0

gave this a proper listen today in an altered state. some virus has installed itself into my body and i'm a bit out of it. somehow this piece managed to work some soothing and i fell asleep half way through. can't tell if this is a victory? picked it up where i left off when i came back around. need to dig into more of these Pran Nath people's work. is it just me or do drones evoke some kind of sense of truth?

droid
15-11-2018, 09:51 PM
is it just me or do drones evoke some kind of sense of truth?

It's not just you.

pattycakes_
15-11-2018, 09:54 PM
Im wondering if I experience depth. I'm thinking probably not. What does it feel like? Can you describe it as a state?

i think what may be happening in your case is that the scales are tipped way toward your intellect vs your body/instincts. i think i remember you saying when you trip it's more about words and you don't get much in the way of visuals, right? it's possible to talk about 'deep', but it's another one of those subjective things where words end up falling short because it's a thing we instinctively feel in our bodies without any rationalisation. we just know it's happening. this is my own subjective viewpoint. deep can mean another thing to you, like joyce is incredibly deep and maybe you get a similar kind of buzz from getting lost in his wordplay. *shrug*

imo it's more in the realms of the mystic & magic than rational/science. certain deep musics take you into a trance like state. i wonder if there's any similarity between that state and the gurgling baby stuff you were talking about in the dematerialization thread?



Is it fair to say vagueness is an integral part of the deep? Something just on the brink of the perceivable? Suggestive of our own limits. The face of the god you can't look at without being destroyed? Something which resists language by being only imperfectly realised?

It's wordless. A state of solemnitude. Pure being in the moment. Distracted from your own ego and it's need to project extra shit onto the screen. Womb-like. Connection to the infinite.

pattycakes_
15-11-2018, 10:06 PM
It's not just you.

any ideas why they do?

luka
15-11-2018, 10:14 PM
Im not convinced by that because this doesnt strike me as body music. I like a lot of this music. But I dont think its body music. Out of body music perhaps.

droid
15-11-2018, 10:21 PM
any ideas why they do?

Ye-ah, dont want to impose my hackneyed theories on you all though.

luka
15-11-2018, 10:33 PM
Ye-ah, dont want to impose my hackneyed theories on you all though.

Wtf what do you think we're here for? Spit it out!

luka
15-11-2018, 10:40 PM
For my money the drone is the ground of being, the base note of existence. The continuity which endures even when the ego is... otherwise engaged. That other awareness behind the social self. Beyond the individual even.

luka
15-11-2018, 10:50 PM
I think I had a sense of the deep as a teenage stoner. I think '70s roots reggae and rza beats fed it. I think i gave it up in exchange for clarity. It wasn't a choice really. It was forced upon me. Weed stopped cooperating. The relationship broke down.

pattycakes_
15-11-2018, 11:06 PM
was this after lots of reading?

luka
15-11-2018, 11:09 PM
I dont think reading killed the relationship. I think it was overuse. I went to the well too often.

pattycakes_
15-11-2018, 11:13 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnYbYWxiX-4

How does this one strike you?

luka
15-11-2018, 11:14 PM
I don't read nearly enough. I dont have the patience for it. I like conversation the best. Thats always been my thing. Anyway, the deep. Interesting. Freud used archaeological metaphors which also operate on a vertical axis. The past is under our feet.

luka
15-11-2018, 11:16 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnYbYWxiX-4

How does this one strike you?

Cheery kitsch. Pleasant but not serious.

pattycakes_
15-11-2018, 11:18 PM
Lol

luka
15-11-2018, 11:30 PM
That stuff is always on the verge of kitsch. You have to be quite severe in where you draw the line or before you know it youre listening to lonnie liston smith or some undistinguished corner of the strata east catalogue. We must exercise vigilance and discernment. What about that heavy romanian gear? Is this deep? https://youtu.be/EIeI4Q-5CSk

pattycakes_
16-11-2018, 12:36 AM
Im not convinced by that because this doesnt strike me as body music. I like a lot of this music. But I dont think its body music. Out of body music perhaps.

Yeah OK, but definitely not intellect rooted.

The heavy Romanian gear is nice but like so much of this stuff, the depth is in the ear of the beholder. I dig the textures a lot. Very physical/visceral.

padraig (u.s.)
16-11-2018, 03:55 AM
'Depth' as mental/emotional sophistication vs. 'Depth' as a sort of spatial description of sound
both are possible - can be separate or together, they are not necessarily opposed or mutually exclusive

I see you qualified "sophistication" below but I would shy away further still

sophistication can produce depth, but depth can also be raw, primal - sometimes it can be both sophisticated and raw, all at once

complexity is better, but ambiguity is probably better yet - to me something which is deep generally cannot be resolved easily, if at all

this may be why the emotions you mentioned - melancholy, awe - lend themselves more to depth - they aren't easily resolved

it's possibly - I'm not totally sure - why I keep referring to change - I associate transcendence with uncertainty, going beyond oneself

the deep as a place beyond certain answers - idiomatically "in at the deep end"

and metaphorically - the murkiness of underwater that increases as one goes deeper, further from the light (clarity)

padraig (u.s.)
16-11-2018, 03:59 AM
droid mentioned "depths to fall into"

literally, sonically, yes

but also dynamics

the Genesis quote I used to describe Wagner above - the very next line is "And God said, let there be light"

without light there are no depths to fall into, no light to fall away from - just formless void

padraig (u.s.)
16-11-2018, 04:06 AM
also perspective and perception of depth

like two people - one atop a mountain, the other in a valley below

obviously their perspectives are completely different - from the mountaintop, the valley is depth

padraig (u.s.)
16-11-2018, 04:09 AM
I do appreciate Corpsey's attempts at qualitatively describing sound, rather than just handwaving "jazzy" or using adjective euphemisms for deep

and it's useful to think about how/why specific techniques of composition or production evoke depth

(suspended chords are a nice shout in re bit above difficulty of resolution)

tho I'm also wary of forest for trees - winding up with "deep" as empty signifiers of whatever genre-sound one is referring to

i.e. by the numbers "deep house", techno mimicking the jazz of Detroit, every type of prog band that ever mistook technical complexity for depth, etc

padraig (u.s.)
16-11-2018, 04:12 AM
sense of being underwater/underground and a sense of depth
see above on the chthonic, murkiness, distance from light, etc

weightiness is also a good look - both metaphysical and literal

again to return to the water metaphor, the increasing pressure as you go down further from the surface

padraig (u.s.)
16-11-2018, 04:13 AM
if all Wagner was like that or 'Valkyries', then i would love Wagner

unfortunately there's some bird shrieking at the top of her lungs most of the time
yep

padraig (u.s.)
16-11-2018, 04:24 AM
the Wagner made me think of two things that feel 'deep' to me, suggestive of unfathomable mystery and immeasurable majesty


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKaOe3_sdOo
yeah that's a great look

there as something I was going to say about the Wada piece that I forgot

about the cthonic nature of those horns - how universal they are to earliest human-made sound

but how I imagine them terrifying later civilized people who've crossed over into a less mysterious world

specifically viz. the terror Roman legionaries might feel listening to droning horns from the depths of misty German forests (as Teutoberg)

(the actual historical reality being as usual more complicated but that's still not entirely inaccurate)

obviously Gas is a much gentler evocation of the mystery of those German forests, but still

padraig (u.s.)
16-11-2018, 04:48 AM
something else kicking around my head - the increasing difficulty of capturing transcendent moments as one grows older, more experience

you have your mind blown in a certain way - not only is it harder to blow your mind that way again, but its initial power recedes as it fades into merely pleasant memory

a personal version of the way that radical art is gradually subsumed into the general cultural lexicon

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9thvHDskYvA
this is a record I'd assume most people here are familiar with

patty's initial post mentioned "drifting off" to Spacemen 3, and it made me think of hearing this for the first time

being a teenager, riding around in someone's older brother's car, late night, very high

early 00s - before the Internet was advanced/omnipresent enough for everyone to automatically to know everything

having never heard nor conceived of anything like it - how mindblowing it was

how it sounded literally impossible - like the apocalypse, but also the most beautiful thing ever - all the cliches you might imagine

I cannot conceive of a record, or really any art, that would blow my mind on that level if I heard it for the first time tomorrow

that naivety, to be not just young but unformed, and the outsized formative impact things can have which can never be recaptured

in this context of depth, of transcendence, of how perception shapes depth

padraig (u.s.)
16-11-2018, 04:59 AM
having not listened to it in years, it does still sound great - incredibly spacious

I'm actually surprised at how otherworldly it sounds, despite now knowing the general history of post-rock, where they copped some of their moves

that emergent property that is lightning in a bottle - as evidenced by their own inability to recapture it

that's a record - the whole LP - I'd call abyssal without being really heavy in any way, at least sonically

the emotions mostly in that contemplative/melancholic wheelhouse, tho also perhaps a large portion of its power is in the way it manages to mix-in emotions - righteous anger, bile, etc - usually outside the more glacial post-rock palette

ofc a million tons of digital ink have already been spilled (it's like a critic's hypnogogic dream given form), just trying to work out how it feels deep to me in some way

where Explosions in the Sky or whatever definitely wouldn't

padraig (u.s.)
16-11-2018, 05:14 AM
oh yes one last thing on depth - a technique note - tuning as means of creating depth

i.e. Iommi gradually got all the way down to I believe C#

Slayer after their first LP went down a half step to Eb (and then lower in the 90s but that's after their relevant period)

virtually all death metal bands tune down, be it to C, all the way to A# (i.e. Bolt Thrower) or whatever

idk exactly how low modern doom, drone, etc go but presumably low

luka
16-11-2018, 10:00 AM
Padraig what im getting from you is this sense of the deep as something currently a step on the ziggurat up from our current level of comprehension/functioning.

That and a lot of 'race-memory' stuff. Correct?
Patty, I agree. For me it is textures, dynamics etc rather than depth. Dramatic, serious, but not deep exactly

luka
16-11-2018, 10:28 AM
Sorry I shouldnt be mixing up my up and down metaphors. The race-memory stuf Padraig keeps referring back to fits in with the archaeological metaphor and also this sense I have of it being about those strata of the self which are no longer individual. Those ancient coal seams and fossil beds.

droid
16-11-2018, 10:55 AM
Wtf what do you think we're here for? Spit it out!

:o

it's a combination of things I think.

Firstly drone is the ultimate tabula rasa. Obviously the tone and the notes played affect your perception, but generally, the minimalism allows the listener to project their own thoughts. The lack of meaning is what gives it depth. Its an empty vessel waiting to be filled.

Secondly, the mode of listening lends itself to projection, thought and transcendence (of sorts). We've all (I hope) had the experience of going to a rave and dancing beyond the wall, when you breach the barrier between thought and action, physicality and the mind. It's a physiological reaction, well documented through ritual history. Drone does the same thing without dancing, without the physical. If you listen closely enough you, by necessity, become drawn into its flow. You step into a deep time field, conscious and aware of glacial microscopic changes whilst also experiencing the intensity of the gestalt. You become suspended in the amber of a hallucinatory, meditative neuro and physiological state. This can become a ritual experience of great significance.

We've spoken here before about the drum and the drone. The first two musics. The yin and yang, alpha and omega. Each has the capability to elevate us, to take us out of ourselves - but only one of them lets you do it while lying down.

droid
16-11-2018, 10:59 AM
I've been planning an 8 volume history of drone mix series, but dont think I can face it. Too intense.

luka
16-11-2018, 11:00 AM
Yay thanks droid.

Im deep listening to deep listening now in tribute to your post.

droid
16-11-2018, 11:04 AM
I was going to post some Radigue or Lucier here, but it seemed to obvious, but it seems to me that drone is the deepest music of all because it has no end. The closer you listen the further you fall, there is no resolution, nowhere to land, just you, falling forever into the void - and yet also, you suspended forever, out of time and space.

Corpsey
16-11-2018, 11:26 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sifOpECSOq0

vimothy
16-11-2018, 02:57 PM
767
me being deep

pattycakes_
16-11-2018, 04:24 PM
don't be afraid to post something you think might be too obvious, dudes. there's a chance some of us haven't heard it. and just post more examples in general... would love to hear more deep electronic cuts, hardcore etc.

pattycakes_
16-11-2018, 04:27 PM
@padraig - man, totally put GY!BE to the back of my mind. lift your skinny fists was my intro, loved it at 16. need to revisit. keep up the good work!

blissblogger
16-11-2018, 07:29 PM
767
me being deep

that is the very image that flashed into my head the first time I heard the Gas / Konigsforst track 5

i didn't know who the painter was, just knew it from one of the Penguin editions of Nietzsche

luka
16-11-2018, 07:34 PM
It is more a romantic mode than a classical mode isn't it. Classicism having a concern with lucidity and proportion. Something atavistic about the notion of the depths (at least in the way we've chosen to frame it.) Something you could potentially get lost in (like Padraigs teutonic primeval forest)

blissblogger
16-11-2018, 07:37 PM
another example of that phenomena, and the only thing i remember about the movie Clouds of Sils Maria

768



i suppose strictly speaking that would be a sensation of altitude (and transcendence) as opposed to depth

depth is more than just spectacular or humbling

it's numinous and unfathomable

goes deep into you, as much as you go deep into it

luka
16-11-2018, 08:35 PM
Must admit im more inclined towards this stuff in winter. London looked great dissolving into mist today. Its a whole different world

vimothy
16-11-2018, 10:40 PM
"deep" => understanding of the sublime
"deep" => understanding of the chthonic
"deep" => understanding of the human condition

droid
16-11-2018, 10:51 PM
This is the the deep Frederich tho.

https://redtreetimes.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/caspar-david-frederich-abbey-among-oak-trees.jpg

Corpsey
16-11-2018, 11:11 PM
This is the the deep Frederich tho.

https://redtreetimes.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/caspar-david-frederich-abbey-among-oak-trees.jpg

The prelude to

https://www.tate.org.uk/art/images/work/T/T01/T01031_10.jpg

I'm drunk right now, which is the shallows, the glorious shallows, where every thought bounces off the brittle surface of a teak-tough insouciance

luka
16-11-2018, 11:12 PM
Good spot.

Corpsey
16-11-2018, 11:46 PM
Good spot.

I don't think it lasts very long, unfortunately, but there's a certain period of being pissed during which your abilities are enhanced by +3

My art criticism abilities are boosted right now, I could very easily take down Raphael with the analytical version of a bar stool

pattycakes_
17-11-2018, 12:30 AM
I was always drawn to electro. It seemed to be one of the few genres that never quite got took over the way jungle, house and techno did. There were many offshoots, even ones with electro in their name, but they never quite stole the essence of it. It felt like a genre that couldn't help but stay underground. Was it because the sound was too niche/subtle?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VN5ffrlBPrA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QriJVyPPJ_o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqzipBBac9M

Whatever it was, the genre appears to be hardwired against commercialism and very much into subtly pushing it's agenda through aesthetics and mostly very minimal text. Themes of utopia, dystopia, science fiction, scorched earth, futurism, escapism, cyberpunk were all well explored. Unashamedly synthetic, one of the more forward thinking genres. Sound design is as important as composition. It feels like all of these factors make it a genre deep by default.

Earlier today I was watching an interview with a comedian and they were talking about some guy being a comedian's comedian. There's something about that label. A DJ's DJ or a producer's producer. this kind of ties into the good taste thread. What is it that makes someone a DJ's DJ? They know more? They play deeper cuts?

Anyway what I'm getting at is electro for me is like a genre's genre.

pattycakes_
17-11-2018, 12:53 AM
also, just want to throw in another thing that's been swirling around: David Foster Wallace's writing talks a lot about the curse of post modernity making people unable to be authentic because they are basically unwilling participants in this weird consumerist/individualist/shrouded in irony/self defense game. imo, this is antithetic to depth. so avoiding seeming too obvious, cliche or whatever even though that's where you instincts were taking you... idk just seems inauthentic. and that's no criticism, because we're all in this shit. i just feel like the depth thing, the real thing, requires us to not be so careful and tap into our instincts, which we should trust a lot more than we are trained to...

now this is a stoned and still ill from yesterday's virus thought, but whatever. it's friday.

:love:

pattycakes_
17-11-2018, 04:36 AM
without earnest expression, music like this would never have existed

Strata East i'm afraid, Luka.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPmwjMICsug

discovered on one of the realest blogs (https://ajbenjamin2beta.blogspot.com/2006/10/mtume-umoja-ensemble-alkebu-lan-land-of.html) that existed during the music blog golden period

this one covers the meditative and the thrashing in one 15 minute meal. Mtume's first 3 albums from the 70s are all full of nutritious goodness. quintessential deep jazz music. in this track you've got the ancestral memory, the chanting, the full bore drive, the realease of the tension, bass and percussion workouts. all very roots. all very real. played with total purpose and unflinching conviction. i want to know what happened to this attitude in music. i'm a big fan of his 80s work too. juicy fruit is undeniable. but i'd love to ask him about that transition, what went on? how he felt about it. had the time of black activism passed? did something happen in the 70s that felt like an end of an era? and people just went with it? in his redbull music academy lecture he talks about how when all the digital gear came along, synths, samplers and sequencers, he got into film soundtracks and this was his favourite thing to do. just go into the studio alone and come up with his own things. so maybe he felt like he'd done all he could in the 70s guise and he was just moving on. one of my favourite musicians of all time. his percussion work for miles davis' 70s electric shit is phenomenal. his solo work, some of my favourite spiritual/cosmic jazz ever. and the 80s shit is slicker than some kind of oily euphamism. a deeper than deep dude. very socially aware and it shows in his music.

baboon2004
17-11-2018, 08:13 AM
Top thread. Going back to the original post - the search for transcendent moments becomes ever more important in a cultural environment that privileges words stripped bare to their literal meaning role. Dogged, unholy literalism everywhere, a world where the pre-lingual and the subconscious are intellectual concepts not visceral truths.
So the search for transcendence becomes a direct response, claiming back an ostracised and core aspect of the human experience. And music is one of the best enablers.

Aka why militant atheists/Rationality addicts are even worse -and madder-than religious maniacs.

luka
17-11-2018, 09:21 AM
I don't think it lasts very long, unfortunately, but there's a certain period of being pissed during which your abilities are enhanced by +3

My art criticism abilities are boosted right now, I could very easily take down Raphael with the analytical version of a bar stool

The arc of attention is the problem though as you say. The sweet spot is barely an hour or two.

JWoulf
17-11-2018, 09:57 AM
I don't read nearly enough. I dont have the patience for it. I like conversation the best. Thats always been my thing. Anyway, the deep. Interesting. Freud used archaeological metaphors which also operate on a vertical axis. The past is under our feet.


Depth as contemplation, memory, history. But the literary exploration seems to have turned sideways lately; from the vertical to the horizontal. Width instead of depth, the horizon and the landscape. Handke, Sebald, Gername. Also scale.

luka
17-11-2018, 10:14 AM
Depth as contemplation, memory, history. But the literary exploration seems to have turned sideways lately; from the vertical to the horizontal. Width instead of depth, the horizon and the landscape. Handke, Sebald, Gername. Also scale.

This is part of what makes me slightly squeamish about this thread. Ive also switched to a horizontal axis. Away from transcendence and depth. I always think of Coltrane/Davis here.

"The shells are adjacent not stacked vertically. They tell you you can move upwards to conceal the fact you can move sideways. "

luka
17-11-2018, 10:27 AM
The depths can be understood(and explored) horizontally though. I don't think it necessarily goes hand in glove with transcendence

luka
17-11-2018, 10:31 AM
Needless to say the music im most committed to and in love with is not generally considered deep. Its what the deep positions itself against. So again, this is why I squirm.

pattycakes_
17-11-2018, 06:26 PM
Which is?

luka
17-11-2018, 06:35 PM
NORMAL MUSIC FOR NORMAL PEOPLE. PROPER TUNES FOR PROPER GEEZERS. NO WIERDOS ALLOWED.

luka
17-11-2018, 06:40 PM
So for instance dubstep consciously and tendentiously positioned itself as the 'deep' answer to grime.

luka
17-11-2018, 06:43 PM
Typically the deep is in opposition to sensation, to instinct,to excitement and the rush.

pattycakes_
17-11-2018, 06:53 PM
Well I'd say the mtume track is exciting. And for me dubstep is 90% dull as fkn dishwater. Pseudo deep. Was cool in its early stages when the parameters weren't fully mapped.

pattycakes_
17-11-2018, 06:57 PM
NORMAL MUSIC FOR NORMAL PEOPLE. PROPER TUNES FOR PROPER GEEZERS. NO WIERDOS ALLOWED.

Sounds like a closet Phil Collins fan

luka
17-11-2018, 07:12 PM
Well I'd say the mtume track is exciting. And for me dubstep is 90% dull as fkn dishwater. Pseudo deep. Was cool in its early stages when the parameters weren't fully mapped.

Sure and I'm not making an attack on your taste. It's just an issue with the rhetoric which has typically surrounded the word and the work it's been asked to do.

pattycakes_
17-11-2018, 07:20 PM
And no offense would be taken if you were tbh. I don't get people being territorial with their tastes (well I do but it's daft) Like it's not in my interest to convert anyone to what I like. Always nice to share things you agree on, but also really stimulating to share things you disagree on and talk about the whys and the hows, as we've been doing a bit of on here lately. And I get your stigma problem with the word, but if anything I'm surprised you are letting that get in the way of anything. Because you seem to be committed to breaking free of so many of the social restraints imposed on us via superficial mechanisms

pattycakes_
17-11-2018, 07:22 PM
And I'd still like to know what you're most committed to

luka
17-11-2018, 07:32 PM
You're right. I should defining the deeps I can get behind. I accept that.

The music that means the most to me is rap, r&b and 'the hardcore continuum' to coin a phrase.

luka
17-11-2018, 07:43 PM
I'll stop squirming and cooperate later this evening. I just wanted to explain the reasons behind the squirming. It seemed important to get that out the wsy first

pattycakes_
17-11-2018, 08:17 PM
All good. Do you :cool:

luka
17-11-2018, 10:38 PM
I am basically antagonistic towards the deep. Particularly when it seems to be acting as a synonym for the tasteful. the mature, restrained expression of refined feelings. That I consider to be anti-life. Where notions of the deep can be useful for me, is, as I keep coming back to, as slowness and deliberation and careful considered attention. I enjoy speed. I enjoy operating at speed, mentally. I like formulating and articulating thought and impressions at speed but the danger lies in snatching at things. In coming to too sudden a conclusion. In being superficial. Everything opens up with time and space and attention. Gives more of itself. Reveals other layers. More detail. More granularity. It's that other mode of life. The rural. The pastoral. Rooted. Under the big skies.

It's useful to me to step out of the social game and social self and trance out a bit. Not relying on an instant take but letting things settle and reveal those aspects of themselves that need that time and space and patience. Landscapes do this too. You need to sit in them or move through them very quietly before they open out and you start to see the patterns and the rhythms. The forces that moulded it. The way the light and shadows model it. The way the birds and animals use it and travel within it. In fact landscapes, nature, the outdoors tends to be where I look for this experience. Music for me is something else. As a city boy the country completely reprograms my nervous system. The effects are very profound. I think that is my version of listening to dj sprinkles. It's not depth though, it's space and time and tranquillity. Something falls into sync. The mind stops racing. The breath slows down. I'm a different person.

droid
17-11-2018, 11:00 PM
There's no contradiction there. When you work at speed you are drawing on you unconscious, by definition, tapping into the deep, the unseen, removing the ego & super-ego from the process, disabling the filter. The key in creative work is to allow this to happen, to let it spout, and only then to analyse and edit.

When I'm deep in the mix, images of the next record sometimes appear in my mind, unbidden. Sometimes I get stuck on a tune and then dream of the next record to play. One of the great unsung disasters of MP3's and digital DJ'ng is the severing of these visual shortcuts to the unconscious.

luka
17-11-2018, 11:16 PM
Sounds like a closet Phil Collins fan

Notorious thread.
http://www.dissensus.com/showthread.php?t=2134&highlight=Phil+collins

pattycakes_
18-11-2018, 02:41 AM
Typically the deep is in opposition to sensation, to instinct,to excitement and the rush.

but there are such things as deep sensations. imo instincts are deep by nature. buried within the code, as droid eloquently put it above. and it definitely doesn't have to be slow. think of DMT, the speed of the information unravelling. faster than we're able to comprehend and pretty much as deep as it gets. and so to be able to attain a level of high velocity flow irl, i think most of us have to have 'gone deep' first in order to have that access to that side of abilities. trite as it may be, i think martial arts is a fine example of this. or playing a musical instrument, or even chopping vegetables. muscle/mind memory.



I am basically antagonistic towards the deep. Particularly when it seems to be acting as a synonym for the tasteful. the mature, restrained expression of refined feelings. That I consider to be anti-life.

couldn't agree more on anything fitting into those types of bougie, dignified discernments. i feel the same way about most elitist thinking/academia and general high society bourgeois shit. totally anti-life. if by life we mean actual living, experiencing. a human being vs a human doing. turning off autopilot and putting yourself into challenging situations. it's easier said than done though for most. the routine is just far too comfortable. even when it's miserable. but like padraig said on the first page re: seeking depth & transcendence:


it's another way of saying what gives life existential meaning beyond the material

pushing back against being swallowed up by the mundanities of day-to-day life

it's like a form of empowerment. another word loaded with stigma, but also conveniently explains a multitude of tangents from where we are. doesn't even have to be dramatic. and deep definitely does not have to have any connection to anything bourgeois. those people need signifiers and validation of their status. i don't think either of us are anywhere near as concerned with that as they are. so we can reclaim the word and use it however we like.



Where notions of the deep can be useful for me, is, as I keep coming back to, as slowness and deliberation and careful considered attention.

absolutely, that slow form thinking/acting is important for all of us.



I enjoy speed. I enjoy operating at speed, mentally. I like formulating and articulating thought and impressions at speed but the danger lies in snatching at things. In coming to too sudden a conclusion. In being superficial.

one thing i've realized recently is that writing is difficult for me because it's too fkn slow. i'm saying the words in my head as i type them. obviously, i normally talk much faster than i type. i've even considered trying a speech to text thing because the way my brain works is kinda rapid fire reacting to whatever's going on. like i love to jam with musicians, love to have long meandering conversations with plenty of room for playing around, love to dance because it's so direct and freeing. but typing is a strain. my words end up coming out weird compared to when i'm just talking. i wish it was as simple as just slowing down my thoughts, but when it comes to words i find it hard to do that unless there are substances involved. i proofread a lot of what i post and then end up editing it again after noticing weird flow or pacing. it's probably way too pedantic, but i have that type of personality. whatever. anyway, yeah operating at speed is a lot of fun when you have the tools and abilities to play with. but you need to put in the time to get to the point where you can do it on a satisfying level without snatching and being superficial, and i guess that's where your point about the slowness/deliberation comes in.

what i think i'm getting at is that i think we're basically in agreement here. the word is loaded is all. padraig is doing a better job than me at explaining it. but i think we could go further on this shit. hopefully more people post examples of their idea of deep music and a bit of explaination as to why.

btw, nice blog name

pattycakes_
18-11-2018, 03:20 AM
In fact landscapes, nature, the outdoors tends to be where I look for this experience. Music for me is something else. As a city boy the country completely reprograms my nervous system. The effects are very profound. I think that is my version of listening to dj sprinkles. It's not depth though, it's space and time and tranquillity. Something falls into sync. The mind stops racing. The breath slows down. I'm a different person.

i grew up in the Lake District and totally relate with what you're saying. like being surrounded by all those different shades of colours and the way the landscape changes over the day in relation to the natural light is mystifying. i personally would use deep to describe this experience. but hey, semantics.

a few years ago i was living in berlin and the concrete there was straight up oppressive. it was changing how i felt inside to such an extent that it made living there difficult. i get that plenty of people are totally fine living there. i'm just over sensitive to my environment. luckily there are some nice parks to decompress, but somehow there was always some reminder that the concrete is never far away. after that i moved to leipzig which is this quaint, compact, green city with lot's of parks and even some nice lakes only a short bike ride from the center. the effects of moving there were stark. i slowly regained some sense of self which had been scrambled by berlin's soviet landscapes. yeah i guess i'm a snowflake. but interestingly, right now i'm in the 11th biggest city in the world. and there aren't many parks around at all. london, berlin, leipizig all had way more than here but, what they do have is a fuck load of trees all over the city. and i swear, this place doesn't feel anywhere near as heavy as london or berlin to me. the trees make such a difference.

769

the view from my window in the barra funda (which translates to 'deep bar' lol) area. it's pretty central. and this is normal here. i don't think people appreciate it because they mostly laugh when i bring up the trees. but man, if you took them away. it'd be a different place all together.

pattycakes_
18-11-2018, 04:51 AM
but generally, the minimalism allows the listener to project their own thoughts. The lack of meaning is what gives it depth. Its an empty vessel waiting to be filled.

Interested to know what kinds of things you project listening to drones. For me it's like a mind cleanser. If I close my eyes it's pretty much blank visually with very occasional textures in very darkened colors. But I think that has more to do with having seen so many visualizers in winamp n shit. I try to wipe the screen clean when I don't want them there though. Works most of the time

pattycakes_
18-11-2018, 07:12 AM
Top thread. Going back to the original post - the search for transcendent moments becomes ever more important in a cultural environment that privileges words stripped bare to their literal meaning role. Dogged, unholy literalism everywhere, a world where the pre-lingual and the subconscious are intellectual concepts not visceral truths.
So the search for transcendence becomes a direct response, claiming back an ostracised and core aspect of the human experience. And music is one of the best enablers.

Aka why militant atheists/Rationality addicts are even worse -and madder-than religious maniacs.

This post slipped under the radar. Bang on. Depth is like an antidote to the current condition. And people are seeking it in lots of ways. Like the retromania thing and artisan cheese and fancy beards. All of those things represent a time when things were much more meaningful. I don't think it's just about reclaiming innocence. This is why I started this thread. And now it's blending into dematerialisation

pattycakes_
18-11-2018, 07:15 AM
and it's useful to think about how/why specific techniques of composition or production evoke depth

Anyone care to chime in on this?

luka
18-11-2018, 08:37 AM
I went to Berlin once, just for a few days and I had them same violent reaction. That place is hell. The worst environment on earth. It's not just the concrete, it's the uniform height of the buildings, the unbroken regularity of form and mass and tone and texture. It's the very wide roads and all that dead and deadening space. It's brutalising. It does violence to the psyche.

luka
18-11-2018, 08:53 AM
it is also the stultifying effect of being hemmed in by all the weight of Europe. Without the clarity and hygiene of the sea. Just this mass of heavy fruitcake and marizipan around you. A lifeless, heavy weight. No energy, no vitality, no puckishness, no cheek.

luka
18-11-2018, 09:01 AM
As regards writing and speed it's a learned discipline. You have to hold on to the thought you are articulating and not let it get away. You have to hold it there as you type, not chase after all the other pretty things it suggests or you'll lose your thread. It's a kind of muscular effort of focus. It feels like exerting physical strength, because you're preventing something from flying away.

luka
18-11-2018, 09:28 AM
You do the thinking as you type. You don't stop and mull things over. You weigh words as you move along the sentence, through that line of force, so the time you spend typing is active, there are multiple decisions to be made. You want the energy to be transmitted through the sentence so take out what slows it down and muzzes it up. The inaccuracies and fudges, the breath markers and verbal shrugs.

I guess. And shit. Pretty much. Man. Like.

Those slacknesses and flabby parts. Ideally every word should be working, a load bearing structural necessity.

padraig (u.s.)
18-11-2018, 10:04 AM
what im getting from you is this sense of the deep as something currently a step on the ziggurat up from our current level of comprehension/functioning.

That and a lot of 'race-memory' stuff. Correct?
kind of

definitely about going beyond i.e. transcendence - doesn't necessarily have to be knowing (comprehension), can also be feeling

atavistic is a good word, but it doesn't have to be literally primal, as wordless drones in mist-shrouded forest depths

it can be any means of reaching out for universal points of human experience, emotion, etc - that sense of "race memory"

not just a literal folk consciousness sense tho there is undoubtedly overlap, as in the case of the drone

it's related to some of our (or at least my) recurring themes - i.e. the space between known and unknowable which is the realm of psychedelic potentiality

luka
18-11-2018, 10:10 AM
Betwixt the in-between
Of is and might have been!

Yes, that's where it happens. No argument from me on that score.
That hermaphroditic space of pure potentiality. The impossible space
Of deep magic. Right there in the centre of it is not a frightening place
But there's terrors on either side, if you're just a hair out of alignment.

padraig (u.s.)
18-11-2018, 10:12 AM
Classicism having a concern with lucidity and proportion
it's really about the tension between lucidity and mystery

logic and oracles, the Parthenon and mystery cults, Pythagoras the original science-magic liminal figure, The Bacchae

Alexander, Aristotle's student and employer of engineers, who built his myth on oracular prophecy and slept every night with a copy of Homer

the Romans for their materialism, also retained some of their earlier, chthonic religion - read the story of Publius Decius Mus and devotio

that known/unknowable tension is one of the oldest recorded human dynamics, likely tied to the rise of civilization

I wouldn't say deepness is necessarily about reaching past the former to the latter, but possibly about trying to resolve that tension, knowing that it cannot be resolved

padraig (u.s.)
18-11-2018, 10:13 AM
But there's terrors on either side, if you're just a hair out of alignment.
that's certainly true

stare into the abyss and all that

leviathans lurking in the protean depths

padraig (u.s.)
18-11-2018, 10:15 AM
btw, hopefully not coming across too woolly or cryptic anywhere in this thread

it can veer dangerously close to "everything is everything man", inspirational quotes, etc kind of waffling - that profound/bullshit precipice

luka
18-11-2018, 10:18 AM
When you don't at least try to articulate it you collude with the conspiracy to pretend it doesn't exist. I think it's far better to acknowledge it.

padraig (u.s.)
18-11-2018, 10:19 AM
when you breach the barrier between thought and action
this is important

in my first post I mentioned also chasing these moments in physical activity

a large part/the ultimate goal of that is trying to attain action without thought, i.e. "simplicity is the last step of art and the beginning of nature"

in that case you're trying to attain it thru repetition, concentration - a focus so intense you no longer need to focus as it becomes clear (resolution again)

it's less clear with music, or art in general, because art is subjective

whereas with movement there's always a particular biomechanically efficient (i.e. "correct") way to do it

but still - trying to reach a place of intentionality without intention

padraig (u.s.)
18-11-2018, 10:21 AM
I think it's far better to acknowledge it.
right but important to also acknowledge the nonsense potential as you're doing it

padraig (u.s.)
18-11-2018, 10:23 AM
i suppose strictly speaking that would be a sensation of altitude (and transcendence) as opposed to depth
depth can also be about looking down from high places (altitude) tho

that's what I was trying to get it with my brief, possibly not very good, mountain-valley parable

luka
18-11-2018, 10:23 AM
I guess I see that as part of the fun. That it is all prone to disappear in a puff of smoke.

padraig (u.s.)
18-11-2018, 10:25 AM
sure

padraig (u.s.)
18-11-2018, 10:26 AM
can't hit homeruns unless you risk striking out

padraig (u.s.)
18-11-2018, 10:27 AM
but you still try to have some plate discipline while you're swinging

padraig (u.s.)
18-11-2018, 10:31 AM
The depths can be understood(and explored) horizontally though. I don't think it necessarily goes hand in glove with transcendence
this is probably true btw

this thread is kind of about 2 related but not exactly the same things

possibly we should have been clearer

any kind of art that is transcendent will necessarily be deep, and probably vice versa (tho I'm not as sure going that way)

patty mentioned chasing transcendent moments thru deep music, and then I picked it up, is how we originally got onto it

padraig (u.s.)
18-11-2018, 10:34 AM
Typically the deep is in opposition to sensation, to instinct,to excitement and the rush
I would distinguish between deep and self-consciously "deep", as dubstep

tbf they could coincide, tho usually self-conscious deepness makes attaining true depth difficult if not impossible

no one is ever going to admit to being tasteful, or however it was you put it a couple pages back, in that way that is anti-life

that kind of self-conscious depth can indeed only be formed in opposition to something else

whereas La Monte Young (or whatever) doesn't need to be opposed to anything - it just is, as it is

padraig (u.s.)
18-11-2018, 10:34 AM
that drone is the deepest music of all because it has no end. The closer you listen the further you fall, there is no resolution, nowhere to land, just you, falling forever into the void
and here's droid, deconstructing the drone better than I ever could

padraig (u.s.)
18-11-2018, 10:47 AM
@cakes - authenticity + postmodernism is a good shout

it's another that came up in one of the other "there's only one thread" threads - possibly dematerialization but I don't remember

people have always sought what we're calling transcendent moments, in guises as multiple as the human search for meaning

I think there's something in seeking them now as a means of psychic defense, among other things

I need to think about it more

random, possibly unrelated note of interest: authenticity as - ironically, possibly inauthentic - cottage industry, Etsy etc

padraig (u.s.)
18-11-2018, 11:02 AM
here's a couple more records I think of as deep

these ones in ways less directly/obviously connected to ego death in a primeval mist-shrouded northern forest

(not that they couldn't soundtrack ego death in said mist-shrouded forest, mind)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LPzt3kGmNE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xe3Q7uajzYM
the boundless eternal depths of love

this is what I think of when I think "deep house", in the sense of deep house as any record/the type of record Theo Parrish etc would play at 4 am

if you want to see a contrast listen to this Gibbons mix of "My Love Is Free" and then listen to Tom Moulton's mix of same

they're both great tunes but this is the only one I'd refer to as deep

Levan deservedly gets a huge amount of credit for bring depth to dance tracks - thru his use of dub techniques and space in remixes, as well as emotional resonance

but Gibbons deserves equal credit if not more - he was the one who took what DJs were doing with mixing, beat-juggling, etc and made it the template of a dance record

meaning peaks and valleys (depths), addition and removal of individual sonic elements in service of/to propel the groove

and that to me is at least part of the depth here, the feeling of endlessness, that if you open the door and step into it is an entire universe

put it on b2b repeat with the Prelude to Das Rheingold from now until the fucking end of time until every sun in the universe burns itself out of existence

that's deep

you might not feel the same way

but like when D. Boon said "Mr. Narrator this is Bob Dylan to me", that Gibbons mix is Wagner to me

padraig (u.s.)
18-11-2018, 11:04 AM
and Love Is the Message

I mean, well

love is the message, is the message of Love Is the Message

it doesn't get any deeper than that, in a simplicity is the last step of art and beginning of nature, kind of way

padraig (u.s.)
18-11-2018, 11:19 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6l-xMnnEAeA
and then this, which is first off one of the greatest techno records ever made by anyone ever

and to give you all your national due, one of the finest works of art ever produced by an English person

lightning in bottle but what lightning - shot directly from the fingertips of some luminous eldritch god

one of the ultimate limitations impose creativity situations, combined with everything going wrong to produce emergent property magic

like, there are some great techno records - mostly Detroit, or people trying to tastefully echo Detroit

but how many are fucking magical? and mysterious? (Drexciya, OK, some deep, ambiguous cats for sure)

the soundtrack of a spice caravan 1000 years ago but without a shred of Orientalism, and also everyone is on drugs

kiss you're beautiful these are truly the last days but without any of the angst

there's only like 3 things happening but again somehow they evoke a sense of the infinite, a whole universe in a two-bar bassline

you and I will die and our bones will wither to dust, and that echoing 808/909 percussion will go clattering on, perpetual motion machine

padraig (u.s.)
18-11-2018, 11:21 AM
next up at some point in the next few days - the depths of crushing weight

someone else should post something they think is deep and talk about it

I mean people put them Friedrich paintings (I love that dude btw) but come on now

just cakes and I carrying yall

padraig (u.s.)
18-11-2018, 11:27 AM
770
this is the only truly deep painting btw

or it makes all others redundant, anyway

stare into it and it most definitely stares back into you

white on white translucent black capes back back on the rack etc

luka
18-11-2018, 06:09 PM
I

The further spiritual/cosmic jazz gets from this source, this fountainhead, the closer it comes to kitsch
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ll3CMgiUPuU

luka
18-11-2018, 06:15 PM
next up at some point in the next few days - the depths of crushing weight

someone else should post something they think is deep and talk about it

I mean people put them Friedrich paintings (I love that dude btw) but come on now

just cakes and I carrying yall

Vim posted the Friedrich partly to poke fun at the pomposity and bathos of the deep and partly to point to its roots in German Sturm und Drang.

luka
18-11-2018, 06:42 PM
I know you're being deliberately hyperbolic for effect but even so the idea that white on white negates or supersedes the mystery and perfect calm of Piero della Frecesco, the fresh, spring light of Bottecelli, the multiple vantages and fractured space of Cezanne, Picasso, Braque, the interior silence and stopped time of Vermeer, the sensitivity and compassion of Rembrant, the electric atmospheres of Giorgione, the mocking symbolism of Poussin, the startling aliveness of Daumier, the gravitas and scope of Titian, the grace and ease of Degas is absolutely fucking mental mate!

luka
18-11-2018, 06:45 PM
This is deep. It's geological. It's tectonic. It's continental plates colliding and shearing apart.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FCIvJmIilgg

pattycakes_
18-11-2018, 07:40 PM
Vim posted the Friedrich partly to poke fun at the pomposity and bathos of the deep and partly to point to its roots in German Sturm und Drang.

which is funny, but also a shame that this word is loaded in that way and provokes that instant reaction. who are we trying to appease? i feel like this ties into the DFW post modern ironic distance self defense shit too well. how did we become post-deep? as we became more and more rational, scientific, modern? but people still like to read dostoyevsky, listen to john coltrane, no? are we not recieving the same pleasure and awe as people who lived in less jaded times did when they read and listened to those works? is it not the depth that makes those creators the greats that they are? what's the deal?

i want to learn.

pattycakes_
18-11-2018, 07:41 PM
you and I will die and our bones will wither to dust, and that echoing 808/909 percussion will go clattering on, perpetual motion machine

padraig for thread mvp.

luka
18-11-2018, 08:12 PM
which is funny, but also a shame that this word is loaded in that way and provokes that instant reaction. who are we trying to appease? i feel like this ties into the DFW post modern ironic distance self defense shit too well. how did we become post-deep? as we became more and more rational, scientific, modern? but people still like to read dostoyevsky, listen to john coltrane, no? are we not recieving the same pleasure and awe as people who lived in less jaded times did when they read and listened to those works? is it not the depth that makes those creators the greats that they are?what's the deal?

Who are we trying to appease is a good question. Mark k Punk used to invoke the Big Other a great deal. Policing of the self in the name of something which doesn't in fact exist. Not at all easy to undo, or even to recognise the full scope of its actions and effects..

Post-deep is I guess partly the infantilisation process we'Ve discussed a little bit before. Partly the recognition of human frailty and human evil in the wake of two world wars, two atom bombs and the holocaust. Even, on a smaller scale, the kind of abuses commonplace in the psychedelic sixties (as documented, for example, in Adam Curtis' 'The Century of the Self') Puppy brought back to its own vomit, time and time again.

A sense of childhood as sanctuary. This far and no further.

luka
18-11-2018, 08:24 PM
You also have the influence of Nietzchean/Freudian 'unmasking' to factor in.

luka
18-11-2018, 08:25 PM
The recognition that the lofty and high flown, the profound and the weighty are
just the basest drives in fancy dress.

padraig (u.s.)
18-11-2018, 08:27 PM
Vim posted the Friedrich partly to poke fun at the pomposity and bathos of the deep and partly to point to its roots in German Sturm und Drang.
yes, I mean I had understood that

Wanderer Above the Sea of Fog has been a meme since days. it was a meme before memes existed, functional shorthand for pompous solipsism.

I mean look at this fucking guy
771

but also like cakes said, who are/would we be trying to impress with our cool, winking detachment?

I'm not even saying it's wrong, that it's not pompous solipsism

but also, what do you want? it's the risk of trying to engage here - exactly what I made a point of acknowledging on the very last page of this thread

idk man it's the easiest thing to smirk at sincerity "me being deep lol" (not saying that's what vimothy was doing)

padraig (u.s.)
18-11-2018, 08:30 PM
right I didn't see your post addressing same

but also you keep asking me to explain what I mean by deep and I keep making an honest attempt at it

not that I - or Friedrich or whatever - am above ridicule

just saying you can't have it both ways

padraig (u.s.)
18-11-2018, 08:32 PM
and while I'm not quite with cakes - asking did rational, post-modern or whatever, ruin doestoevksy or whatever

I also don't agree with you all about the Romantic element, or that this is particularly a Romantic interpretation

I think you've been led astray by all the misty German forests talk

which is partly my fault for not being clearer that they're a particular (and particularly obvious) iteration of deepness, rather than synonymous with deepness

it's more about the tension between known/unknowable (mystery) that exists in some form in all things

padraig (u.s.)
18-11-2018, 08:33 PM
as I noted above in a few examples concerning Classicism and the classical world

but could be done for (probably) anything

luka
18-11-2018, 08:35 PM
right I didn't see your post addressing same

but also you keep asking me to explain what I mean by deep and I keep making an honest attempt at it

not that I - or Friedrich or whatever - am above ridicule

just saying you can't have it both ways

I literally spend my days writing poetry by a river and when I'm not doing that I'm on here fomenting a psychedelic revolution and hastening a new religious revelation. I'm not anti sincerity.

luka
18-11-2018, 08:37 PM
I appreciate your efforts to fathom the depths. Perhaps we could sum up what we've got so far?

padraig (u.s.)
18-11-2018, 08:42 PM
I know you're being deliberately hyperbolic for effect
am I?

flippant maybe, but that's different from hyperbolic - I believe what I said, in the way I said it

I didn't say negates, I said makes redundant and only in the sense of deepness, not in any other other sense of aesthetics, or meaning

and when I say redundant, I mean it's the ultimate expression of that avenue of exploration

even more than 4'33" because while it still has incidental elements it's closer to a purity of form

which is not to negate the power of Chagall, or drifting further afield any of the painters you named

it's just such a weird argument to me - what does any of that, those other painters, have to do what what I said about Malevich, at all?

padraig (u.s.)
18-11-2018, 08:42 PM
I'm not anti sincerity.
I'm certainly not trying to say you are

padraig (u.s.)
18-11-2018, 08:45 PM
I just think this isn't one of your preferred avenues of exploration - I mean you've (admirably) admitted as much

which is good actually - we all have different strengths - I'm not as adept at some of the other games around here but this is fully my wheelhouse

luka
18-11-2018, 08:48 PM
am I?

flippant maybe, but that's different from hyperbolic - I believe what I said, in the way I said it

I didn't say negates, I said makes redundant and only in the sense of deepness, not in any other other sense of aesthetics, or meaning

and when I say redundant, I mean it's the ultimate expression of that avenue of exploration

even more than 4'33" because while it still has incidental elements it's closer to a purity of form

which is not to negate the power of Chagall, or drifting further afield any of the painters you named

it's just such a weird argument to me - what does any of that, those other painters, have to do what what I said about Malevich, at all?

You said White on white was the only deep painting. I disagreed. I gave examples of other painters I consider deep, and thumbnail sketches of where (partially) their various deepnesses are located! I think all of those painters painted wonderfully, unplummably deep paintings. I suppose you could define deep in such a limited and jealous way that it excludes everything but white on white but what would be the point of that?

Anyway, I'm not in an argumentative mood. I'm feeling very gentle, almost sensitive, I just couldn't let that comment pass without a splutter or two

padraig (u.s.)
18-11-2018, 09:03 PM
such a limited and jealous way
there's nothing limited or jealous about it

it's the ultimate expression of a thing, no more and no less

this is so fundamental that idk it's hard for me to imagine you're not being willfully obtuse and/or provocative

your argument is like saying Pandit Pran Nath (or whatever) isn't deep because what about John Coltrane or whatever

but whatever man I'm not gonna rise to it - it's fine

padraig (u.s.)
18-11-2018, 09:07 PM
you do keep surprising me with your extremely traditional aesthetic tastes but I should probably stop being surprised

after all you have always been very clear about liking "normal art for normal geezers", which is as perfectly laudable a taste as any

I assume poetry and literature is where all the weird esoteric etc is evident

I don't mean any of that in a backhanded way at all tbc

as a theme here I'm not advocating for "deep" as superior in any way - that that which isn't deep must therefore be shallow, and thus less meaningful

just deep as deep

luka
18-11-2018, 09:07 PM
Like I say I'm not in an argumentative mood. More misty mellow and fruitful. Very gentle and tolerant, but flinching from contact.

padraig (u.s.)
18-11-2018, 09:08 PM
Perhaps we could sum up what we've got so far?
I need to think on it, which I will

luka
18-11-2018, 09:10 PM
My tastes in literature are extremely traditional and canonical. I don't go in for the obscure or outré in any sphere. Not cultural or in any other sense. That is true. I'm not interested in the extremes at all. I think they're barren.

pattycakes_
18-11-2018, 09:17 PM
...in the wake of two world wars, two atom bombs and the holocaust. Even, on a smaller scale, the kind of abuses commonplace in the psychedelic sixties...

but even beyond then there were great works provoking us to question things. eg the 70s is unarguably the greatest decade for film. it feels like the 90s/00s were the beginning of the true end of provocative art. and the seeds were sown in the 80s.



I mean look at this fucking guy

germans...


and while I'm not quite with cakes - asking did rational, post-modern or whatever, ruin doestoevksy or whatever

that's not what i was saying there. i meant that the 'acknowledged' deep creators from the past still hold their weight today. and probably will for the rest of time. my point is, even though we seem to be existing in a time where when that kind of expression is made today, its met by nudges and winks... yet those guys are still held up high. so what happened? it's not like we're unable to percieve and appreciate, or feel in awe of depth. we still revere it as much as ever. but we play ourselves down by not allowing each other to go there anymore. crabs in the bucket. and i'm already feeling the pull internally just writing this. because it's ingrained on that level. but why?

padraig (u.s.)
18-11-2018, 09:18 PM
@luka - fair enough

I disagree of course, but it's a coherent position to hold

it may be part of why you don't get on with depth, which is usually (maybe always) in some way about manipulation of extremes to produce dynamics

creating the depths to fall into/stare down into/submerge/etc

I have less of a grasp on what's canonical - or more to the point, what does or doesn't make something canonical - in literature than in music or visual art

padraig (u.s.)
18-11-2018, 09:34 PM
my point is, even though we seem to be existing in a time where when that kind of expression is made today
right, OK

part of it is the passage of time that always happens with art - it's exceedingly rare for things to acknowledged like that in the moment

see above comment in GY!BE post about gradual subsuming of radical artistic ideas into general cultural lexicon (recuperation being the capitalist version of this)

I don't think you're wrong tho

one thing that comes to mind is the omnipresence of art and culture - things are no longer discrete events

think of any open-ended film series (i.e. "Marvel Cinematic Universe") with solely market-dictated logic - the individual films have no beginning and end, they just loiter on screen for approximately 2 hours, part of a neverending corridor of revenue-generating exposition/plot points - that is culture in general - not wholly negative but it's very "for better and worse", and one effect is robbing discrete events of their power, mystique. your question is a manifestation of the time barrier as well - things which were created before the omnipresence of cultural creation, tho possibly hard to separate from above noted usual artistic passage of time. surely there is some element of inherent post-modernist sneering but I think it might be overrated.

it's a complicated question either way, that kind of thing I imagine academia/the higher end of culture industry has/is producing articles, books, etc about.

pattycakes_
18-11-2018, 10:28 PM
my own theory is that the military industrial complex used the 80s as the incubator decade for what we're now living. regan/thatcher - king/queen. trashy media, music videos, action films, cartoons and computer games were used to desensitize us against all kinds of horrors. even mario is a mass murderer when you think about it. with exposure to that 80s style of genetically modified, carefully curated aesthetic acting like drugs on the eyes of kids, they programmed us to think nothing of killing. and essentially be turned on by it. no doubt the taste for blood lies deep within us and goes back before history began. they know this and exploited it, sensationalized it and made it into mindless fun.

it's on record that the CIA had influential authors like hemingway on their payroll - using them as propaganda agents. and that's just the basic level. knowing that these are the types of things they get up to, and that'sjust the literary world, you begin to realize that if they wanted, they could basically tend the strings of reality whichever way they chose. and maybe everything we look back at with dewey eyed nostalgia about our childhoods now, could have been a control construct designed to covertly shape us into whatever form they chose at an age where we would have no chance of defending ourselves against it, let alone percieving it.

there's a book i don't remember the name of written about running colonies in s.e asia from back in the day. one thing that stuck out in it basically said it takes 2 generations of control to make a people forget who they are. their names, their language, their culture can all be wiped away. 2 generations. it listed the methods which resembled the brainwashing techniques of the military and cults. all pretty standard manipulation stuff, and all totally usable on a mass scale. rearranging language was a big part of it. creating a sense of subtle unrest by rearranging words in a way that is lingually recognisable/understandable, but unsettling. not unlike gaslighting.

what i'm getting at is that i believe there's been seeds of ideological subversion/demoralization sown into the our reality which have shaped us into a people who no longer believe in anything, and essentially feel hopeless. we're being mass managed on a global scale. and the things which used to give us a sense of connection like religion (not saying i want to go back) were slowly but surely dismantled to the point where we're left with little other than a sense of total detatchment from it all.

i'm struggling to get all the ideas together to make this coherent, but hopefully you get the point. i think the nudges and winks are partly crabs in the bucket and partly very well designed control techniques that don't allow us to reach our potential anymore. and yeah this is a gnat's chuff away from the 'hey let's all move to a big house in the country, drop acid and fuck' cult leader mentality. but it feels real to me god damn it.

think i posted this in the dematerialization thread:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bX3EZCVj2XA

luka
18-11-2018, 10:36 PM
I'm not at all unsympathetic to that point of view. My paranoia meter swings to and fro. At the very least I think there's much more truth in that than would or could ever be publicly admitted.

pattycakes_
19-11-2018, 12:42 AM
on another note,,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJ1KZEX46LA

this hit me hard when i first heard it a few years ago on a 2cb & e sesh. chills. still manages to blow me away almost every listen.

luka
19-11-2018, 11:23 AM
[QUOTE=luka;360031]I appreciate your efforts to fathom the depths. Perhaps we could sum up what we've got so far?[/The stress sectors displaying friction about turn the next alignment for seasons regimental folder essay align the several sequence indefinitely wear tells are nice inclement shading seasonal lets with older to assembly date transifix reorder and realign radial symmetry orb is there is no point of origin for this fractal universe it is everywhere already

pattycakes_
21-11-2018, 07:19 PM
I swear I get spam emails from you trying to get me to click dodgy links

pattycakes_
01-12-2018, 01:08 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MP6BODZTRU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u49AtRoa70A

2 of the deepest house cuts ever.

Trillhouse
03-12-2018, 03:20 PM
Interesting.

an easy one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEFrNP-BLcI

self expression + openness + space = deep?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3Uz6bM7G28

is 'deep' just 'soulful' without religious connotations?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MULexjqrYww

deep. deep. deep. deep. repetitious constant = deep?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUpt_f3b8z0

deep + twee = magical ??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBCdn4-bn4w