Under what contexts are certain terms racist?

tryptych

waiting for a time
This stems from a piece of music, so it's in this forum, but really goes beyond just music...

I've been having an argument with a friend of mine about whether the lyrics to a particular song are racist or not.The song is basically a rant, a litany of disgust, where the singer reels of a list of things he's sick of... so we get "i'm sick of my dog, sick of all the popstars, sick of politicians, sick of the cunt who lives next door, sick of drinking beer... etc etc". It's sung by someone who I'm fairly sure is white (not that it makes much of a difference).

Within this list there are the following phrases:

"I'm sick of all the Arabs, sick of all the Jews"

which I didn't find offensive, just a bit bad taste..

and

"I'm sick of all the niggers..." and "I'm sick of all the pakis, sick of all the greys" and "sick of all the queers"

Which I did find offensive.

My immediate response was "that's racist (and sexual preference-ist)".

I've been discussing it with a friend of mine, who has offered the following arguments :

-it's ironic, which somehow makes it ok (which I flatly disagree with)

- It's a rant which lays into everything - which might be some kind of argument, except that the only negative racial epithets are "nigger" and "paki". I don't find the use of "Arab" and "Jew" offensive. He also says something about being "sick of the greys" - which as far as I know isn't a racial slur, except possibly against aliens with big bulbous black eyes and skinny little grey bodies.

- it's designed to shock, the singer is looking to generate a response. Which I think is a flimsy and cheap way to do so.

- the narrative voice could be taken as being someone else's, a nihilist or a racist.


So, is it ok to use terms and phrases like that? Are they inherently racist? Are there some contexts where it is acceptable and not others?

Obviously I have picked up a couple of phrases that I found offensive, so they are taken a little out of context here. If people want, I can post more of the lyrics..

Edit friday: Here's the link an mp3 of the track: http://s47.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=1G04E6LBEOQSV2BHXGE1S36JYS
 
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3underscore

Well-known member
I think your conclusion is pretty sensible. Arab & Jew are the correct name for their collective groups. The others aren't - they are words tied with racial aggression over many years. "Sick of the blacks" would not promote the same offence, nor "sick of the asians" or whatever (Pakistani's would not fit the rhyme).

It is that you are taking offence to the words tipifying hatred, not his being sick of that group of people.
 

john eden

male pale and stale
3underscore said:
I think your conclusion is pretty sensible. Arab & Jew are the correct name for their collective groups. The others aren't - they are words tied with racial aggression over many years. "Sick of the blacks" would not promote the same offence, nor "sick of the asians" or whatever (Pakistani's would not fit the rhyme).

It is that you are taking offence to the words tipifying hatred, not his being sick of that group of people.

Isn't being sick of an entire race of people racist in and of itself, or have I missed something?
 

stelfox

Beast of Burden
irony does not cancel out racism, just as racist jokes are still racist whether they make people laugh or not.
 

tryptych

waiting for a time
bleep said:
Just depends on intent and context.


I'm sick of your ism schism game...

Does it entirely depend on the intent and context? I can't see anything but negative intent in this situation. Is the user obligated to make clear their context and intent to avoid the charge of racism?

My opponant in this argument flatly denied that the song was racist, because of the ambiguous nature of the intent, and the context.

I don't really see how anyone (white) can use "nigger" and then say that their intent wasn't racist. Words like that seem to have meaning that goes beyond their context...
 
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john eden

male pale and stale
spackb0y said:
I don't really see how anyone (white) can use "nigger" and then say that their intent wasn't racist. Words like that seem to have meaning that goes beyond their context...

You just used the word "nigger" in that sentence but it's clear that your intent wasn't racist.
 

tryptych

waiting for a time
Ok, there are certain abstract uses that arn't racist then - describing someone else's speech, discussions of semantics.. etc. But I think one has to make fairly clear from the outset that's what's going on. Maybe they have certain meaning unless it's specified that they arn't being used in that way?

If i just put up a post that said "nigger" - never mind that I was sick of them, would that be racist? And, following on from that, does the particular context of lyrics etc that I explained above mean that the usage isn't racist?
 

matt b

Indexing all opinion
spackb0y said:
- It's a rant which lays into everything - which might be some kind of argument, except that the only negative racial epithets are "nigger" and "paki". I don't find the use of "Arab" and "Jew" offensive. He also says something about being "sick of the greys" - which as far as I know isn't a racial slur, except possibly against aliens with big bulbous black eyes and skinny little grey bodies...

as the author/ singer is stereotyping and suggesting that all 'arabs', 'jews', 'niggers' and 'paki's' are the same, the lyrics certainly wouldn't go down well with the CRE or the EOC (or age concern).


spackb0y said:
-So, is it ok to use terms and phrases like that? Are they inherently racist? Are there some contexts where it is acceptable and not others?

obviously context is important but using irony, comedy, subversion as cover for discriminatory bleatings is a weak argument as long as we live in a racist, sexist, homophobic, ageist society- power is still held, in the main by white middle class men: such lyrics only reinforce traditional power structures, so it is difficult to say they are subversive, for example.
 

matt b

Indexing all opinion
3underscore said:
It is that you are taking offence to the words tipifying hatred, not his being sick of that group of people.

because being sick of a whole group of people isn't offensive?
 

john eden

male pale and stale
spackb0y said:
If i just put up a post that said "nigger" - never mind that I was sick of them, would that be racist? And, following on from that, does the particular context of lyrics etc that I explained above mean that the usage isn't racist?

Most uses of the term "nigger" are racist, yes (the main exception being its reappropriation by black people).

I think that the lyrics quoted are racist, with attempted mitigation for being humourous, misanthropic, ironic, or playing the part of a racist for effect. But let's be clear about this, they are also racist againt arabs and jews, tho possibly less so because the actual descriptive terms for those races are not offensive ones.
 

3underscore

Well-known member
matt b / john eden said:
because being sick of a whole group of people isn't offensive?

Not necessarily so - it isn't particularly inflamatory, it is opinionated. But the use of inflamatory terms adds an extra element that results in offence.
 

john eden

male pale and stale
3underscore said:
Not necessarily so - it isn't particularly inflamatory, it is opinionated. But the use of inflamatory terms adds an extra element that results in offence.

Is racism about being prejudiced against an entire race, or is it about causing offense?

Does racism cease to exist in a group where everyone is prejudiced against another race (and therefore nobody is offended by it)?
 

CDPA

New member
mp3?

perhaps post the tune so we can hear the lyric in the context... there's no doubt that prima facie it appears to be potentially racist but we shouldnt be so quick to be politically correct in allegations without knowing more... its all a bit abstract at the moment. would it be different if the lyricist was asian? or black? or gray?
 

nonseq

Well-known member
john eden said:
Is racism about being prejudiced against an entire race, or is it about causing offense?

I think it is not necessarily about causing offense. Isn't the racism sometimes so ingrained in a society that victims agree with it, like Indian lower castes who truly believed that they were lower beings and hence did not feel offended but rather accepted it as a natural order?
 

tryptych

waiting for a time
I'll see about posting an mp3... my friend is involved with the production of said record, so I should OK it with him first...

Would it make a difference if the singer was asian or black? Maybe... but since he targets at least two groups - and lets not forget, the queers as well, I'm not sure.

Alternatively, if it did cover whites/heterosexuals, would that negate the racist aspect?
 

hint

party record with a siren
spackb0y said:
So, is it ok to use terms and phrases like that?

dunno spackboy... you seem to think it's OK.... is there a context in which your username isn't potentially offensive? you may well be disabled for all I know, so I'm not quite sure how to take it.
 
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