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Woebot
15-11-2004, 08:02 AM
Been thoroughly enjoying the Rough Trade "IndiePop" Compilation. If you havent scored a copy of this do. It'll be the freshest most invigorating thing you pick up this year, and easily the best compilation theyve put out IMHO. Actually considering a) they couldnt get even half the tracks they wanted (the list of bands whose stuff they couldnt get is as long as your arm) and that b) much of the stuff comes from the 90s (when you had to be a leper to still be listening to indie http://www.dissensus.com/images/smilies/wink.gif ) its quite surprisingly excellent.

This weekend i finally picked up Stereolab's "Emperor Tomato Ketchup". I've a copy of "Space Age Batchelor Pad" and that rather dampened my ardour (its not that great) and my only other foray into the groop is the (awesome) "Simple Headphone Mind" (but I rather churlishly attributed thats success to its collaborator Steve NWW Stapleton). Side one of ETK left me a bit cold, ready to dismiss them as drinking from the right brews, but failing to do their own thing successfully, but POW the other three sides are excellent. "Le Yper Sound" i especially liked. Actually when I first went into Rough Trade to ask for Neu! in the early nineties (the dawn of my realisation that they were going to be a lot more difficult to track down that i'd thought) the bloke at the counter told me i should just buy the stereolab record... that was the lazy comparison early on wasnt it?

One of the best tracks on the Rough Trade comp sounds just like Stereolab. The June Brides "Every Conversation" with its funny tootling trumpet, supposedly a big influence on Belle and Sebastian (another band I have to look inot one of these days). A track like this in the late eighties, mate, I would have dismissed it out of hand as twee, pointlessly lacking in ambition etc. The sort of things I liked were Sonic Youth, Big Black, The Buttholes, AR Kane, Loop, MBV (wonder what journalist i was tailing?)- quite portentous music that seemed sort of lofty and other, tuned into a superior frequency range. MBV's early stuff still has this homemade atmosphere, "Paint a Rainbow" for instance off this comp is cut from this cloth. And it got me thinking that the whole C86-vibed scene must have crashed headlong into the kind of expectations that teenager like me had at the time. "We dont want twee music like The Pooh Sticks!"

If there was one band which, almost singlehandedly collected all that was C86-ish in Indie and "re-branded" it, if you like, but simultaneously gave "proper uk indie" a more glamorous spin. It had to be Stereolab. If you once were an indie fan , then you probably became a Stereolab fan demographically speaking. It seems like the rest of indie went forever buzzcock-power-pop at this same point. In that sense, in this (typically) hastily assembled theory, I reckon Stereolab killed indie. Either that or they ate it alive.

sammy garraluga
15-11-2004, 10:04 AM
Stereolab replicates The Shaggs.

Rambler
15-11-2004, 10:39 AM
Space Age Bachelor Pad Music is pants: a much better route into Stereolab is Transient Random Noise Bursts I reckon.

Diggedy Derek
15-11-2004, 10:44 AM
I think Yo La Tengo killed indie. Decent, bland, mildly spiky songs, they seem to provide a one-stop shop for that indie vibe- at the same time never bringing anything new to the table.

xero
15-11-2004, 10:56 AM
surely acid house killed indie in 88 when it paved the way for the heinous indie-dance

polystyle desu
15-11-2004, 03:22 PM
[QUOTE=WOEBOT] Actually when I first went into Rough Trade to ask for Neu! in the early nineties (the dawn of my realisation that they were going to be a lot more difficult to track down that i'd thought) the bloke at the counter told me i should just buy the stereolab record... that was the lazy comparison early on wasnt it?

Jeez , that was more then lazy ...

hint
15-11-2004, 05:37 PM
mmmm... the indiepop comp is indeed a real treat. I'm too young to have experienced much of that movement first hand, so I'm really enjoying discovering this stuff.

I think the two things that killed off the scene were:

bands like stereolab proving that you can be fey and whimsical but also have high production standards... the public started to be attracted to the more "shiny" schmindie stuff recorded in "proper" studios and the kids with a hissy 4 track could no longer compete.

and

as indie moved into the nightclub scene (as the whole music-driven club scene took off in the UK in general) the likes of baggy took over. cos until then there were only a few big uptempo indie tracks ("this charming man" for example) that you could actually dance to. ;)

blissblogger
15-11-2004, 05:45 PM
Tim Gane used to be in McCarthy, who i think actually had a track on the C86 cassette. They were an anomaly, an overtly political, leftwing shambling band

the really great Stereolab album for me is the one they did in tandem with an exhibition in New York, i'm blanking on the title, something like Amorphous Body Music. You went in and looked at these kitschadelic sculptures and put headphones on and each sculpture had a 'Lab track assigned to it. The CD got a proper release at some point. it's the lab at their softest and most French sounding.

I don't know about killing indie but one of the nicest, coolest swerves out of C86 was Saint Etienne. Their second single was a cover of a Field Mice tune and i think they took a certain anti-rock/ anti-rock'n'roll (not the same thing, actually) sensibility within C86 and developed into this neo-mod/proto-Popist aesthetic. In a certain sense, they were the antithesis of Primal Scream (who also killed indie) although both SE and PS embraced house, sampladelia etc.

Didn't Oasis kill indie by making Sixties revivalism mainstream?

i can't believe you bought that comp, matt! have you really exhausted every other form of music on the planet?

Rambler
15-11-2004, 05:54 PM
Yeah, Music for the Amorphous Body Study Center, with the artist Charles Long.

McCarthy were great - any band with tracks called 'The Drinking Song of the Merchant Bankers', 'Write to your MP Today' and 'Use a Bank I'd Rather Die' is good fun in my book.

uncannydan
15-11-2004, 06:06 PM
if you're looking to explore some of the finer moments in indie-pop history i recommend searching out a few key labels:

sarah records - home to some of the finest british indie pop of the 90s. field mice, 14 iced bears, boyracer, the orchids, the sea urchins, st. christopher, the wake (after they went totally twee)

all the sarah 7" singles are highly collectible and can be a pain to track down. ltm is reissuing the entire field mice backcatalog in early 2005, so i recommend picking those up, especially "snowball" which should include their "emma's house" 7" which is choice.

elefant - some overlooked gems on this spanish label. the first le mans album is a joy. they also released singles on colored vinyl by the pop race, union wireless, st. christopher, trembling blue stars, bootby (members of figurine), the lovelies, and countless others.

little teddy - the bartlebees, who've done work with jowe head of television personalites fame, tullycraft (who've i've never really like, and other lesser known german pop bands were and are active on this label.

creation - check out early jesus and mary chain singles (upside down, for example) for some brutal pop feedback. primal scream, bif bang pow!, oasis, and a number of other influential indies made their mark here.

that rough trade comp is a long overdue tribute to a bygone era. there still are a few crucial bands out there. the bartlebees, the legends, the monochrome set...but most of them are long gone. :(

xero
15-11-2004, 06:18 PM
The sort of things I liked were Sonic Youth, Big Black, The Buttholes, AR Kane, Loop, MBV (wonder what journalist i was tailing?)

I'm guessing you were reading 'the maker'? For me it was the blissblogger's review of Husker Du's 'Warehouse' that pretty much kicked things off, musically - something about 'soulboys & tasselled loafers fluttering in the wind - the return of ROCK' if I remember rightly

Diggedy Derek
15-11-2004, 06:21 PM
a much better route into Stereolab is Transient Random Noise Bursts

Yeah, totally agree with that, love love love that album. They'd made serious progress from the excitable indie naivity of Peng- Jenny Ondioline is almost indie-pop remixed by The Orb, new layers emerging from nowhere, the near edible sound-textures becoming a content in themselves.

Got 2/5 in Q when released, they said it was long and confusing, which was obviously the point.

mms
15-11-2004, 06:44 PM
Didn't Oasis kill indie by making Sixties revivalism mainstream?


yes although there was a lack of quality in alot of what the baggy boys did, there was still a continuation of the spirit of experimentation that alot of indie proper had.

i think some people from that kind of stereolab world reshuffled in the face of baggy and also us rawk and took up the mantle of indie proper to a more significant extent though, the shoegazers and the seefeels and post rockers of the world.

but jesus, oasis, i was a student while oasis were big and i felt like a total outcast as a non fan of retro rock music, and without that whole desire to be a swaggering bowl haircutted replicant for cool britannia.
Any notion of music making you cool in that situation was completley out of the window, if it wasn't oasis no one cared, or they thought you total freak
i tended to hang out with the locals.

Rambler
15-11-2004, 07:02 PM
Tony Blair and New Labour killed indie. That whole cool Britannia rubbish. Making friends with Blur and Oasis, people trying to pretend this was like the Stones vs the Beatles, all that crap - everything surrounding that part of history when indie became mainstream and we were all doomed to Travis for the rest of our lives. When the whole point of indie, that it was underground, awkward, anti-establishment, got turned around - the Tories lost, for a couple of years people lost something to resist, the underground became the establishment, spin took charge (find me better spin doctors than the Gallaghers!). You could feel it happening at the time when the records you were buying started to creep into the top 10 - for a while it felt like victory, but it soon turned to ashes.

Indie kids, be careful what you wish for.

Or summat like that ...

Woebot
15-11-2004, 07:51 PM
surely acid house killed indie in 88 when it paved the way for the heinous indie-dance
that must lie at the heart of the matter

Woebot
15-11-2004, 07:59 PM
Tim Gane used to be in McCarthy, who i think actually had a track on the C86 cassette. They were an anomaly, an overtly political, leftwing shambling band
ah ha! its all falling into place!


the really great Stereolab album for me is the one they did in tandem with an exhibition in New York, i'm blanking on the title, something like Amorphous Body Music.
right. will see if i can get this and Random Noise Bursts. The french thing of theirs appears on the suface to be a stylish sidestep, but there are loads of precedents for them. Obv someone like Brigitte Fontaine, the detente between Gainsbourg and Birkin (I have that Birkin solo LP somewhere) also "Melody Nelson" was recorded in the UK with a bunch of library musicians like Alan Hawkshaw. Also stuff like Nini Raviolette and Dr.Mix.


I don't know about killing indie but one of the nicest, coolest swerves out of C86 was Saint Etienne. Their second single was a cover of a Field Mice tune and i think they took a certain anti-rock/ anti-rock'n'roll (not the same thing, actually) sensibility within C86 and developed into this neo-mod/proto-Popist aesthetic. In a certain sense, they were the antithesis of Primal Scream (who also killed indie) although both SE and PS embraced house, sampladelia etc.
There certainly was alot of indie-slaying!!! Escape routes wasnt it? Bob Stanley is def a very indie character. Real collector too, remember him lauding Lori and The Chameleons


Didn't Oasis kill indie by making Sixties revivalism mainstream?
harumph. wasnt it long-dead before they arrived?

Matos_W.K.
15-11-2004, 08:09 PM
I like the Indiepop comp too, and I've run hot and cold on Stereolab for years; my two favorites of the handful I've heard all of, for what it's worth, are ETK (go "Motoroller Scalatron") and, uh, the new one, which I played a lot earlier this year.

problem w/question (a good ?, btw, just a technical glitch): "indie" means so many things in so many places, not unlike "hardcore." but I'll bow to the UK-centricity of the massive. (feels odd to be referring to anything to do w/Sarah Records as a "massive," dunnit?)

Woebot
15-11-2004, 08:33 PM
problem w/question (a good ?, btw, just a technical glitch): "indie" means so many things in so many places, not unlike "hardcore." but I'll bow to the UK-centricity of the massive. (feels odd to be referring to anything to do w/Sarah Records as a "massive," dunnit?)
your quite right matos. i should have specified UK indie. though i wonder if indie meant anything so specific in the US?

-------

further thought thats been niggling me all day. the thing about "UK indie proper" was that it demanded from it's audience a very similar affection for the "unglamorous" , "raw" and "homegrown" that grime does. at least to say grime fans in the UK. everywhere else its quite exotic!!!

francesco
15-11-2004, 09:23 PM
Music for the Amorphous Body Study Center is for me, toghether with Simple Headphone Mind, the Stereolab masterwork. The limited minilp/cd is absolutely impossible to find, but is been collected (actually on the first side) on the Aluminium Tunes album, on Warp; that should be much easier to find on vinyl and still in print on cd. The rest of the album had also other very fine moments, expecially Golden Atom, a sort of Eno of Another Green World meet the Velvet Underground.

francesco

blissblogger
15-11-2004, 11:30 PM
strange how you run into the most unlikely one-time C86/shambling veterans

most recently, i was surprised to discover that Tim Goldsworthy of DFA -- and before that, of Mo Wax and UNKLE -- had been heavily into C86 type music. And in a recent issue of Index magazine, he and James Murphy both interview Morrissey

another one was Todd Hyman who runs Carpark, the IDM/idyllictronica label, also does Acute as in the postpunk reissues (metal urbain, prefects etc), and if that weren't enough, runs Paw Tracks w/ the animal collective. I remember having a long conversation with him about C86 in which i could swear he uttered the words "Shop Assistants box set". weirder still he's way too young to have been into the stuff at the time

jon dale is all up in that shit, or at least, he's really into the Pastels.

i have a large number of c86 cassettes which i found in a closet at IPC Towers and have been clinging onto in the hope they'd be worth something on day. but Jon disabused me of that dream by revealing he bought his copy for 2 dollars. In australian, so i dunno, worth about 82 p or something.

despite loving stereolab i've always been slightly offput/suspicious on acocunt of Tim Gane's extreme scholarly knowledge of music and esoterrorist angle -- with that sort, i tend to think "probably should have gone into writing about music, not making it" (cf recent kieran hebden invis jukebox in the wire). in both cases, fantastic people to talk to about music (well i'm assuming that in hebden's case).

but when i saw stereolab at irving plaza back in must have been 96 or so, it was one of the most transcendent gigs i've ever experienced -- with the band impassive and workmanlike throughout. so go figure. like saint et, i think they manage to transcend the over-knowingness

sufi
16-11-2004, 12:34 AM
strange how you run into the most unlikely one-time C86/shambling veterans
bonk, oops, scuse me

ecstacy killed indie if i remember rightly...

but it had a nice analog diy ethic somehow, with kids in snorkels putting out fotocopied fanzines & then whacking out bubblegum pop unrecognizable under layers of feedback, i'm thinking primitives, pastels, j&mc... haha fucking flexidiscs!!!

Woebot
16-11-2004, 09:55 AM
despite loving stereolab i've always been slightly offput/suspicious on acocunt of Tim Gane's extreme scholarly knowledge of music and esoterrorist angle -- with that sort, i tend to think "probably should have gone into writing about music, not making it" (cf recent kieran hebden invis jukebox in the wire). in both cases, fantastic people to talk to about music (well i'm assuming that in hebden's case). tha must be one thing which separates the true indie band from those that consolidated the scene afterwards (Etienne, PS, Stereolab etc) knowing too much music history. those earlier bands pretty much "went straight at it" with a smattering of vu and the byrds. its really horrible for people who write about music to view music as just and index of influences (i'm atrociously guilty of this), BUT, BUT its even worse when bands are compiling those same indexes themselves. remember when the wire interviewed stereolab and they had a little page afterwards boxed-in of "stereolabs influences" i guess it doesnt necessarily mean the music is going to be weak, but put it this way, i dont imagine you'd hear neu! going into great depth about their influences.

Jim Daze
16-11-2004, 10:06 AM
I always thought that 'grunge' (the mainstream stuff) killed of the secret world of indie, also the whole e-thing. Even the Shamen had a shambling indie past. Oasis came on the scene way after it was dead I agree. I'm only just old enough to have enjoyed the dying embers of c-86 but am still fixated by it's now golden age vibe of nostalgia. I only really discovered Felt, who are the ultimate Sarah band that were never on Sarah, about five years ago.

Also agree about Simple headphone Mind, it's a cover version of some kraut tune I can't remember, of course Stapletons mix takes it to da next level.

jenks
16-11-2004, 10:43 AM
first posting, excuse slight nervousness.
the two 'lab moments that still remain for me - french disco as heard on evening session when i still listened to radio one (anyone else watch that dreadful self regarding doc. on channel 5?) and the Flouresences ep - them at their locked groove best.
as to what killed indie it could be argued that whole high llamas/ tortoise/ lab axis put the brain back in rock leaving the indie constituency looking for more (amorphous) body music - oasis et al. But what probably really killed it off was record companies buying up indie labels and putting profit margins above wilful experimentation and loopy collectives - if you think the indie pop rough trade thingy is good check out their post punk collection - now that's what i call indie!

stelfox
16-11-2004, 10:45 AM
those links aren't so surprising, really. i've always pretty much taken it as read that many of the guys like greg davis (carpark) and the animal collective are carrying on this C-86 tradition. i'd be interested to see just how many electronic musicians were big into dc hardcore, though. i'm betting it would be a lot of them and mostly ones i like, too.

dannyDMX
16-11-2004, 12:35 PM
"most recently, i was surprised to discover that Tim Goldsworthy of DFA -- and before that, of Mo Wax and UNKLE -- had been heavily into C86"

I'm trying to remember, Tim has an older brother or something who was a real scenester, was in some band. Back when I did Plant Bar on mondays my friend Kevin dj'd happy hour, he's always been a standard bearer of that type of stuff, he put out the Love Is All single recently, anyway, he had Tim's brother DJ once when he was in town, it was all that stuff.

As an aside, regarding all the talk of baggie killing indie, when I think of indie rock in america I think of the 90s and stuff that was post-baggie. When I was in high school/college and stuff like Stereolab, Polvo, Pavement, the whole Louisville/Chicao axis, Bastro, Shellac, K records, Kill Rock Stars etc. Stereolab was always my favorite because they tied into my then also new krautrock obsession(as well as Silver Apples, United States of America etc) and I liked the songs. Most of the rest of "indie-rock" at the time bored me. Except for New Zealand for some reason, anyway.

jwd
16-11-2004, 12:36 PM
Oh thanks for 'outing me' Simon ;)

Couple of points:

* Surely the 'index of influences' is just as much a function of access/increased knowledge base/sheer amount of music to draw from/listen to? Not that I'm going to say something like 'you know, now with the internet and downloading'. I thought one of the BEST things about Stereolab was that they pointed to their influences, because it led a lot of us lot, who were getting into music during the same timeframe, down some very interesting paths. Krautrock I knew about before Stereolab but they really pulled me up sharp with NEU! I wouldn't have caught Brazilian pop nearly as much without Stereolab shouting about it. Also their links with film and art (sorry Matt - I know I already sent you an email about this), referencing American underground cinema ("Brakhage", "Off/On"), pre-situationist collectives ("Cobra and Phases Group..."), Japanese cinema ("Emperor Tomato Ketchup") and so on. It's a fantastic web to untangle. Same with St Etienne, I was so happy to see the promo image from the film adaptation of "A Taste of Honey" in the photo on the inner sleev of "Foxbase Alpha". The continued Beach Boys references in 90s St Et album titles. The Pastels naming a song "Thomson Color" after a film processing technique favoured by French new wave film makers (I'm going on memory here.)

* Simon OTM re: Four Tet, bright guy but the music is shite, he's a perfect example of how this kinda thing CAN lead to dross. (Alright, a few nice tracks on "Pause".)

* Indie vs INDEPENDENT. I know that The Pastels would be quite fierce about being INDEPENDENT but don't really see themselves as indie, it being such a sad tag. St Etienne also I assume. One's become a genre identification, one is a mode of engaging with the world.

* Awright Stelfox, how you doing, yeah you know Glenn Donaldson, one of the Jewelled Antler guys, was a big 80s US hardcore fan (we emailed briefly about early Redd Kross and Circle Jerks), I think you'd find a lot of the u/g folks have that as an essential part of their make-up.

Diggedy Derek
16-11-2004, 12:47 PM
Okay, Fourtet aren't quite as impressive as the sum of their influences. But that Thirtysixtwentyfive one (pre- dialogue single that's 36:25 long) was wonderful- Pharaoh Sanders cruising in the back of Neu!'s car.

A Jenny Ondioline for the new millenium, it was.

Woebot
16-11-2004, 12:56 PM
* Simon OTM re: Four Tet, bright guy but the music is shite, he's a perfect example of how this kinda thing CAN lead to dross. (Alright, a few nice tracks on "Pause".)
Gonna pile in here. Thanks so much to John "He's Shameless" Eden for making me a tape of his Four Tet CD (didnt you get it for XMas or summat John) but Four Tet are COMPLETE rubbish. Actually, salivating, wrenched the cassette from the deck and wrapped myself up in its spools. The most unbeleivably grating directionless drivel ive ever heard. And that's toning down my true reaction....... which was more like plain dejectedness.

Woebot
16-11-2004, 01:09 PM
Thanks so much to John "He's Shameless" Eden for making me a tape of his Four Tet CD (didnt you get it for XMas or summat John) but Four Tet are COMPLETE rubbish.
Yeah sorry John, that was well cheeky of me :-( However, if you hadnt sent it, and i'm glad u did, then i'd never of heard it would i!

baboon2004
16-11-2004, 01:58 PM
Very interesting thread, given that I barely listen to 'indie' artists these days (outside certain 'alt-country' stuff that might be conceived of in this way), and wonder why I just have no interest in the whole concept anymore, whereas the Pastels, J+MC, Trembling Blue Stars, Teenage Fanclub etc used to charm me with their shambling.

UK-centric, personal answer: it seems to me to be a conflation of several factors around the early 90s, and most of it has been mentioned upthread. Shoegazing made indie at once nerdy and faceless, and also kind of redundant due to the sonic maximalism of MBV; the commercialism of mid-late grunge kind of stripped off hordes of potential indie converts; and of course, rave culture made indie charms appear a little outdated (tho TB Stars had a house tune, I seem to remember). Then Britpop killed it stone dead when it coopted the very term such that it ceased to be distinguishable fromt he mainstream.

jwd
16-11-2004, 02:20 PM
Re: FourTet


The most unbeleivably grating directionless drivel ive ever heard. And that's toning down my true reaction....... which was more like plain dejectedness.

Matt! But what would you do if you saw Kieran Hebden busking 14th century ballads on London Bridge? ;)

Come on now Derek, you praise Four Tet and diss Yo La Tengo? Hmmm. (Both of whom have done their "look mah we can dabble in jazz no hands!" records.)

Diggedy Derek
16-11-2004, 03:18 PM
Well for Four Tet jazz = a good natured, very occasionally succesful attempt to integrate kosmigroove and sampledelia. It's lounge, but it's lush. For Yo La Tengo jazz means nicking Ornette Coleman album covers and not having to learni proper chord shapes. It's indie rock with attractively frayed bits around the edges, like pre-aged jeans.

I'm cursed with a myopia where Yo La Tengo are concerned, where everything they do makes me hate them more.

stelfox
16-11-2004, 04:18 PM
i like four tet

blissblogger
16-11-2004, 05:31 PM
so is "kosmigroove" now an official genre name? who came up with it? i stumbled across the site while in my prog-roaming phase last year. it's a good name, cos it has a slightly vomitous quality. Suits the slightly comic, can't-quite-take-it-seriously quality of the music it designates, or a lot of it.

C86 veterans -- i'm looking for confirmation that Rob Young was actually in the Field Mice.

i'm coming around to the idea that, at least in the UK, Ecstasy killed indie
-- tim goldsworthy said he went from being into the Bodines 'n shit to dancing in fields off his tits
-- a guy i know who was majorly into the cutie anorak scene (in fact he was photo-ed for a piece i did on Cutie fashion) went totally nuts for house, all of sudden he was giving me tapes with Landlord and 808 State on them
-- shamen as was said upthread (i must have seen them about four times in their pre-acid house phase, playing alongside mighty lemon drops and such. even then they were into acid, though --Op art slide projections, Electric Prunes type guitar sounds)
-- all that cockiness in Madchester that then led into Britpop, the Stone Roses>>Oasis thing, part of it is imbibed from the water supply up there , but a lot of it came from E. Noel Gallagher had a whole phase when he was trying to make acid house didn't he. i think of the whole Oasis phenom as an attempt to have the massiveness and anthemness and unity vibe of rave without any of the actual sonic radicalism of rave muzik. in that Live Forever doc Gallagher said something about the E wearing off and suddenly you realised the acid house and techno was tuneless din and then rediscovering songs and "proper music".
-- Primal scream was actually the conduit for so many ex-indie types into rave. in fact the friend who dragged me off to my first rave, she'd started going to them cos of Primal scream gigs when they had djs like weatherall as support instead of bands.

Woebot
16-11-2004, 05:57 PM
so is "kosmigroove" now an official genre name? who came up with it? i stumbled across the site while in my prog-roaming phase last year. it's a good name, cos it has a slightly vomitous quality. Suits the slightly comic, can't-quite-take-it-seriously quality of the music it designates, or a lot of it. that came up here:
http://www.dissensus.com/showthread.php?t=117&highlight=meditative

and one of the original architects of it showed up. weird that you use the word "vomitous" that was precisely my word for it.

Woebot
16-11-2004, 05:59 PM
Re: FourTet

Matt! But what would you do if you saw Kieran Hebden busking 14th century ballads on London Bridge? ;)
knowing my luck heb***'ll show up and whup my sorry ass. john on the other hand will wait till my guards down and murk me. maybe a few months down the line.

Diggedy Derek
16-11-2004, 06:12 PM
Kosmigroove is just above "braindance" in the vomit stakes. Mind you, I do find it a useful word to use for that jazz/not-jazz stuff like Pharoah Sanders, Alice Coltrane etc.

It's amazingly not jazzy, that stuff, isn't it? The whole notion of interogating the chords, of playing the scales as an artistic technique, is gone. Instead they just swim around the same chord sequences, waiting for nuggets of poetry to happen naturally. A totally different mindset.

Woebot
16-11-2004, 06:30 PM
-- shamen as was said upthread (i must have seen them about four times in their pre-acid house phase, playing alongside mighty lemon drops and such. even then they were into acid, though --Op art slide projections, Electric Prunes type guitar sounds)
dissensus member iueke dj-ed techno with mixmaster morris to the indie hordes on one of their uk tours.

xero
16-11-2004, 06:32 PM
-- Primal scream was actually the conduit for so many ex-indie types into rave. in fact the friend who dragged me off to my first rave, she'd started going to them cos of Primal scream gigs when they had djs like weatherall as support instead of bands.

I think this is bang on the money and Brighton was the ground zero of this phenomenon I reckon. It was probably the first place the London acid house scene spread to. I remember weirdos in brightly coloured dungarees & bandanas running amok around the town drawn by Boys Own all-dayers and the like. Primal Scream were living there at the time and rather than hanging out in indie gigs & nights (like the afore-mentioned 14 iced bears, Brighton's indie heros of the time) they were regulars at the zap club's early house nights & beach after-parties.

blissblogger
16-11-2004, 06:56 PM
"vomitous"
ha! that's bizarre. great minds, eh!

actually having said that, i'd probably prefer to listen to what's designated by kosmigroove (kablewurggh) than yer actual Fire Music/free music

weather report, jan garbarek, jon abercrombie etc etc mean more to me than all the screechers, and even starting to get into roy ayers (having used him as a lazy anti-reference throughout the jungle chapters in energy flash!)

but i'm wandering off topic: what killed indie?

erm it's innately un-rocking timidity and tepidity? its modesty of ambition and spirit?

there's some piece by Greil Marcus or perhaps Lester Bangs where he talks about how a certain great piece of music would deserve the word "virile" if only that word had no gender-coding or loadedness. and that's the trouble with indie. that largeness of spirit that you get equally in the Slits or PJ Harvey as much as in the Pistols or the Doors (or any rap or grime you care to mention) is just not in hardly ever. not that that's the only thing music can be about, but....

the ultimate indiepop song in some ways might be this thing that Looper, the belle & sebastian offshoot, did, a song whose title i forgot, but it's about some long-drawn relationship that drags on for years and years before the boy and girl finally.... hold hands. it's very sweet actually but it sort of distils that whole essence of cutiepop in re. not grabbing life by the jugular

mind you someone told me the C86 lot were at its like rabbits, so perhaps i'm talkign out of my arse.

dubplatestyle
16-11-2004, 07:45 PM
well yeah i think the secret subtext of indie rock/pop (maybe indie pop is better because it's closer to what i think we're talking about here, rather than, say, world domination enterprises or killdozer) is that these scenes are practically swingers clubs. (think of the beat happening chapter in "our band could be your life" where olympia is portrayed as this kind of granny glasses melrose place where everyone is swapping partners and constantly screwing. and let me tell you, little has changed in the intervening 20 or so years.) i can only guess that the feebleness extends to the rutting itself.

xero
16-11-2004, 08:18 PM
i can only guess that the feebleness extends to the rutting itself.

laughing out loud at the idea of feeble rutting ensuing once threadbare cardigans have been divested of

dominic
16-11-2004, 09:37 PM
I think this is bang on the money and Brighton was the ground zero of this phenomenon I reckon. It was probably the first place the London acid house scene spread to. I remember weirdos in brightly coloured dungarees & bandanas running amok around the town drawn by Boys Own all-dayers and the like. Primal Scream were living there at the time and rather than hanging out in indie gigs & nights (like the afore-mentioned 14 iced bears, Brighton's indie heros of the time) they were regulars at the zap club's early house nights & beach after-parties.

Was there a connection between the Zap Club in Brighton and the Shark Club, which I believe was located beneath the boardwalk?

Also, I'd be interested in reading about this era in Brighton nightlife. Has there been anything written on the subject? What kind of music was played at the Zap Club?

dominic
16-11-2004, 09:44 PM
"I'm trying to remember, Tim has an older brother or something who was a real scenester, was in some band. Back when I did Plant Bar on mondays my friend Kevin dj'd happy hour, he's always been a standard bearer of that type of stuff, he put out the Love Is All single recently, anyway, he had Tim's brother DJ once when he was in town, it was all that stuff."

Yeah, his name is Andrew Goldsworthy. He used to play at Lotus on the LES on Tuesdays. He's also the man behind the music on VH1's "Behind the Music." Supposedly has one of the largest record collections known to mankind. A friend of mine reports that his apartment is wall to wall records, i.e., one must move carefully to avoid stepping on records. So, while I don't doubt that Andrew Goldsworthy has lots of shambling bands stuff, he's got a lot of everything. Prog rock, punk rock, 80s electro, 60s Nuggets stuff. On and on and on . . . . However, so far as I know, he doesn't have an English accent.

xero
16-11-2004, 10:34 PM
Was there a connection between the Zap Club in Brighton and the Shark Club, which I believe was located beneath the boardwalk?

Also, I'd be interested in reading about this era in Brighton nightlife. Has there been anything written on the subject? What kind of music was played at the Zap Club?

The shark bar opened some time in the early nineties - not much of interest there musically except that I remember Damien Harris, now boss of Skint records & presumably somewhat wealthy, used to dj there before anyone cared.

The zap club used to be a great live venue as well as a small club. It was the only thing under the arches on the seafront in the late eighties other than fishermen's lock-ups & an irish club. It had strong links with Brighton festival and hosted performance art stuff as well as club nights, arty cabaret etc. Some of Brighton's first acid house nights happened there as well as electro nights that got taken over by jackin' freaks. Then in about '89, I think, they more than doubled it in size by knocking through to the next arch and excavating. It really took off as it was the only 'proper' club in the town. The only other place was the escape which at that time was still a dingy pub basement venue where Norman Cook played hip hop on Saturday nights (must have been just after the housemartins split), it took a while to succumb to house fever.

The zap's resident on saturday was Chris Coco, who has now gone all ibiza ambient but used to play a wide range of early house & techno stuff but there were a lot of one off parties or things like Tonka (DJ Harvey's first crew) which was on once a month. In those days the club used to shut at 2 so quite often a sound system would be set up under the cliff at black rock, up the seafront or at shoreham beach and people would party well into the next day

Dunno if anything has been written about the era - it was certainly pretty exciting at the time from my perspective although I guess similar things were going on all over the country. Brighton just got the virus from London pretty early on

jwd
16-11-2004, 11:02 PM
C86 veterans -- i'm looking for confirmation that Rob Young was actually in the Field Mice.

Young was in the Poppyheads, who released one of the early Sarah Records 7"'s ("Cremation Town") so I guess that's the connection. Also put out a zine called It All Sounded the Same. Oh, the irony. I remember a great story in his review of that Cavanagh Creation book where he talks about going to Weather Prophets or House Of Love gigs and pretending to be Robert Young of Primal Scream so as to get in on the door list.

Matos_W.K.
17-11-2004, 09:13 AM
I always thought that 'grunge' (the mainstream stuff) killed of the secret world of indie, also the whole e-thing.

to get America-centric on your asses once again (har!), this is almost exactly what happened in the U.S. I don't think it's at all a coincidence that Pavement became the indie band du jour in the months after Nirvana got big; a lot of indie kids wanted something that didn't belong to all those stupid fucking mallrats (like me! I worked at the Mall of America selling holograms!) but weren't quite ready to give up scruffiness or guitars. it would take a few years--and, not a coincidence by my lights either, after Cobain killed himself--for a lot of U.S. indie-ists to get into beats, DJing, samples, etc. Stereolab, Tortoise The Wire, post-rock, Thrill Jockey putting out Mouse on Mars albums in America, etc.

kek-w
20-11-2004, 10:33 AM
strange how you run into the most unlikely one-time C86/shambling veterans

most recently, i was surprised to discover that Tim Goldsworthy of DFA -- and before that, of Mo Wax and UNKLE -- had been heavily into C86 type music. And in a recent issue of Index magazine, he and James Murphy both interview Morrissey




Tim G is the (much) younger brother of Chesterfields mainman the late great Dave Goldsworthy - big up Yeovil C86 Cru! Tim was raised on a diet of C86 music at gigs round Yeovil & Sherborne indie scene via his big bro' ... Dave also had a love of old school hip-hop, so that may have also been an influence in the Mo Wax thing....Tim moved up to Oxford from Yeovil when his parents moved house; he met James Lavelle and the rest is history. From a provincial point of view, Acid killed C86 down in somerset, or rather factionated the scene...Acid was sneered at by Indie fans in the same way that Punk was reviled by Prog fans...it was seen as being unmusical. Our friend Flinty used to DJ at the local Indie nights and we used to smuggle in Acid and early Detroit 12"s just to piss off the Sarah Records fans. (Tim would have been present at some of these gigs.) Acid polarised opinions down our way, but within 2 years the indie kids were all monging out at the free partie scene...

kek-w
20-11-2004, 10:37 AM
"I'm trying to remember, Tim has an older brother or something who was a real scenester, was in some band. Back when I did Plant Bar on mondays my friend Kevin dj'd happy hour, he's always been a standard bearer of that type of stuff, he put out the Love Is All single recently, anyway, he had Tim's brother DJ once when he was in town, it was all that stuff."

Yeah, his name is Andrew Goldsworthy. He used to play at Lotus on the LES on Tuesdays. He's also the man behind the music on VH1's "Behind the Music." .


Nah, wrong guy....Tim's brother was Dave (see above)

kek-w
20-11-2004, 11:54 AM
Glenn Donaldson, one of the Jewelled Antler guys, was a big 80s US hardcore fan, I think you'd find a lot of the u/g folks have that as an essential part of their make-up.

Yeah, that's very true of quite a few US bands (was there ever a 'fey' US scene equivalent to UK C86?)...Black Dice and Sunburned Hand have both owned up to coming from a Hardcore/Heavy Noise background...not a particularly obvious influence if you haven't heard their really early stuff.

carlos
20-11-2004, 02:24 PM
was there ever a 'fey' US scene equivalent to UK C86?

there was K-Records / Beat Happening and TeenBeat / Unrest lo-fi pop scenes around the same time (or maybe a little after) as the uk fey pop thing.

i was around back then- but too busy buying psych-rock/garage punk reissues and stooges/mc5 revivalist records to notice... :o

blissblogger
20-11-2004, 03:48 PM
>Tim Goldsworthy's brother in the Chesterfields

blimey, i think i slagged them off in MM. Wonder if Tim remembered. they were an example of the secret Haircut 100 influence in C86, if memory serves

>American C86 equivalents

Beat Happening's first album with the cat drawing on the front beats everything that C86 produced, a really magical record

there's also a cluster of bands around the Darla label that draw all the sonic dots between C86, Saint Etienne, Stereolab, and the "Lost Generation" (ie. Seefeel who used to be a blissy indiepop group before going Aphex; Disco Inferno, etc etc). incidentally Darla did a whole numbered series of ambient releases, by outfits like Piano Magic, called Blissout, last time i checked they'd got up to number 11 or something

Lamplighter
21-11-2004, 10:46 AM
Man, Indie's not dead. Ned's Atomic Dustbin are on a comeback tour RIGHT NOW, you know.
See, it's true. (http://www.nedsatomicdustbin.com/home.asp)

grimly fiendish
21-11-2004, 02:49 PM
I know that The Pastels would be quite fierce about being INDEPENDENT but don't really see themselves as indie, it being such a sad tag.

what? come on: stephen pastel is the definition of the shambling indie mook. you see him shuffling about at little gigs in glasgow, with his bloody ripped domino records bag and the same haircut his mum gave him in 1982, and you think, jesus wept, talk about wasted potential. the pastels can be a MIGHTY band when they try, but their entire image is inexctricably bound up with the "sadness" of indie. indeed, they've become a byword for it.

other thoughts: i'm not sure about E killing indie - there was a lot of very interesting E-influenced guitar music in the early 1990s (and not just the mondays/roses: terry bickers was, IIRC, rather keen, as were a lot of other shoegazing types). but all that noisy grunge stuff, with its instant "image" and air of american cool, was a big lure for the disaffected teen - especially, at my school anyway, for the kids who'd been into grebo/stourbridge stuff and already had long hair. all they needed to do was grow out their undercuts. heh.

but then i also remember how my mate eyres went from being a die-hard smiths/kitchens of distinction/mondays kinda boy into wearing plaid shirts and listening to fucking primus almost overnight. never underestimate the effect grunge had.

when i went to university (1993) i remember buying things like passion fruit and holy bread and swimmer (boxes! woah, i'm off to dig that out RIGHT NOW) and feeling that there was still all this interesting, unusual music being talked about by lamacq and the nme; stuff that wasn't mainstream, but wasn't hard to find either. then, by easter 1994, the only thing anybody cared about was fucking, fucking, fucking oasis and bloody britpop. britpop should have been a subset/spinoff of indie (cf baggy), but it span out of control and killed it off completely.

(boxes isn't quite as good as i remember, now that it's coming to an end. and the flipside sounds like pavement v oasis. good in parts.)

kek-w
21-11-2004, 07:45 PM
They were an example of the secret Haircut 100 influence in C86, Ha! Dave would've dug that. His big influence were Edwyn Collins and Josef K...so you can draw a firm line from Postcard Records thru to C86. Andy Gill of G04 was a huge influence too...If Dave was still around he'd be well pissed off about them reforming.



Seefeel who used to be a blissy indiepop group before going Aphex Ah, yeah, the "shoegazers" like Slow Dive, etc...a half-forgotten strand of Indie Evolution...were they Indie's response to Ambient, I wonder; an attempt to carve out a new ecological niche? St. Etienne also had their own 'shambient' side-project: Cola Boy...

dominic
30-11-2004, 02:28 AM
St. Etienne also had their own 'shambient' side-project: Cola Boy...

I have the Cola Boy "7 Ways to Love" record. St Etienne did production, but the track was actually by a person named Jesse Chin . . . . And not sure if I'd call Cola Boy "shambient." I think they were straight-up pop rave . . . . Great record, in any case

dominic
30-11-2004, 02:44 AM
Nah, wrong guy....Tim's brother was Dave (see above)

I'll have to investigate. Sounds like "Dave" is the person everyone else has in mind. However, I've been told by numerous people, including "Andrew" himself, that he's Tim "DFA" Goldsworthy's older brother . . . . Is it possible that there are more than two sons in the family?

xero
30-11-2004, 12:09 PM
I have the Cola Boy "7 Ways to Love" record. St Etienne did production, but the track was actually by a person named Jesse Chin . . . . And not sure if I'd call Cola Boy "shambient." I think they were straight-up pop rave . . . . Great record, in any case

and a massive tune at the coco era zap!

BSquires
01-12-2004, 12:59 PM
Tim Gane used to be in McCarthy, who i think actually had a track on the C86 cassette. They were an anomaly, an overtly political, leftwing shambling band

From memory, before McCarthy Tim Gane was 'Unkommunity' who were a minor entry in the Come Organisation/Broken Flag early eighties UK Power Electronics scene. Some of their tracks turn up on various the Broken Flag compilations and I think he/they even put out a 7" on their own Black Dwarf label. Not sure if too many Stereolab fans would be that keen though...

blissblogger
01-12-2004, 03:07 PM
i remember when i interviewed stereolab years ago, tim talked about how as part of some career guidance type thing at school he applied for a job at Industrial Records and also the Fall's label at that time

Broken Flag -- i was reading that Wolf Eyes piece in the Wire (my, but they're some inarticulate fellows, or should I say "dudes" aren't they?) and they start going on about how it's no good thinking you're on top of the late 70s/early 80s UK scene if you've downloaded a few Broken Flag tapes off the net, you have to dig deeper and get into the flexis, the really obscure noise tapes. And I'm thinking "Broken Flag are like the middlebrow option, then? I've never fucking heard of them. " Alarming given that i've spent three years on a massively over-researched postpunk book! still something tells me that it's not going to be worth my while chasing 'em down. Esoterrorists, doncha just love 'em?

carlos
01-12-2004, 06:24 PM
Broken Flag

don't know much about broken flag tapes- but they came up in another forum so i remember a discography page:

http://www.monotremata.com/skull/flag.html

there was also a page by a japanese collector who has tons of these but i don't remember the url

just fyi- in case you decide to go after these...

mms
01-12-2004, 09:29 PM
don't know much about broken flag tapes- but they came up in another forum so i remember a discography page:

http://www.monotremata.com/skull/flag.html

there was also a page by a japanese collector who has tons of these but i don't remember the url

just fyi- in case you decide to go after these...

that's an interesting site, broken flag had rameleh and skullflower on em which philip best from whitehouse was in blah blah.

redcrescent
01-12-2004, 11:01 PM
Ramleh, Consumer Electronics, Sutcliffe Jugend, Con-Dom, MB... some beyond shit (http://www.noise-online.com/extreme.html).

sufi
24-07-2005, 09:11 PM
original c86 blogged here (http://mockingmusic.blogspot.com/2005/07/nme-c86-profile.html) :

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y48/mockingmusic/nmec86.jpg

oh the apathy, the ennui, the humanity!

dominic
24-07-2005, 09:37 PM
because Sufi just now resurrected this thread, I thought I'd clarify this very minor DFA issue, which comes perilously close to name-dropping, at least on my part . . . .


i was surprised to discover that Tim Goldsworthy of DFA -- and before that, of Mo Wax and UNKLE -- had been heavily into C86 type music. And in a recent issue of Index magazine, he and James Murphy both interview Morrissey

which lead to this comment =


I'm trying to remember, Tim has an older brother or something who was a real scenester, was in some band. Back when I did Plant Bar on mondays my friend Kevin dj'd happy hour, he's always been a standard bearer of that type of stuff, he put out the Love Is All single recently, anyway, he had Tim's brother DJ once when he was in town, it was all that stuff.

which lead to this comment by moi =


Yeah, his name is Andrew Goldsworthy. He used to play at Lotus on the LES on Tuesdays. He's also the man behind the music on VH1's "Behind the Music." Supposedly has one of the largest record collections known to mankind. A friend of mine reports that his apartment is wall to wall records, i.e., one must move carefully to avoid stepping on records. So, while I don't doubt that Andrew Goldsworthy has lots of shambling bands stuff, he's got a lot of everything. Prog rock, punk rock, 80s electro, 60s Nuggets stuff. On and on and on . . . . However, so far as I know, he doesn't have an English accent.

which lead to this correction =


Tim G is the (much) younger brother of Chesterfields mainman the late great Dave Goldsworthy - big up Yeovil C86 Cru! Tim was raised on a diet of C86 music at gigs round Yeovil & Sherborne indie scene via his big bro' ... Dave also had a love of old school hip-hop, so that may have also been an influence in the Mo Wax thing....Tim moved up to Oxford from Yeovil when his parents moved house; he met James Lavelle and the rest is history.

and so now finally this clarification =

I was thinking of Andy Galkin -- the man with the truly enormous record collection -- and so far as i know one of his brothers (or half brothers) runs DFA, and for whatever reason I think it's Tim G, not James M

hint
24-07-2005, 09:45 PM
I was thinking of Andy Galkin -- the man with the truly enormous record collection -- and so far as i know one of his brothers (or half brothers) runs DFA, and for whatever reason I think it's Tim G, not James M

The DFA label manager is Jonathan Galkin - http://www.junkmedia.org/?i=1063

dominic
24-07-2005, 09:48 PM
original c86 blogged here (http://mockingmusic.blogspot.com/2005/07/nme-c86-profile.html)

hah! -- this "mocking music" blogger mentions the American band Velocity Girl -- one of the few American bands that I actually liked in the early 90s!!! saw them play live several times -- imitators of MBV, i reckon -- washed-out guitar feedback, w/ girl pop vocals -- think they were from Washington, DC -- all the guys in the band seemed oh-so-sensitive in proto-emo kinda way -- but the girl singer seemed cool

dominic
24-07-2005, 09:54 PM
The DFA label manager is Jonathan Galkin

and so this controversy has reached its end

with me on the losing side

(or if you're kind, close but no cigar)

sufi
24-07-2005, 11:11 PM
http://bassnation.uk.net/images/zombie.jpg


thx bassnation!

shykitten
25-07-2005, 02:11 AM
hi i am new here. i know i've come in a bit late on this but it is a thread i can hold onto...!

who killed indie? good question.

1. Oasis (the obvious culprits, as stated above).

2. the loss of an indie-friendly music press in favour of an NME bland-out monopoly and corporate retro-monthlies.

3. indie's not dead, its just evolved... electro is indie, Warp is the leading indie label (unless EMI's bought them and i didn't know about it).

4. all/none of the above, etc.

Buick6
25-07-2005, 03:10 AM
I think the fact that is became even easier to do DIY stuff in the early-mid90s that killed indie.

Once it moved away from labels building up an 'indetity' or 'sound' and you had all these jocks and shmuckos making their own sub REM/Smiths type sounds in their bedroom for 40 bucks, that killed indie.

I think it also got found out when they got bigger budgets and their music was found to be shit.

Tim F
25-07-2005, 06:13 AM
Does anyone remember The Space Monkeys' "Acid House Killed Rock & Roll"?

The Space Monkeys were this late 90s Tony Wilson-approved band who appeared to base their entire sound on the space between "Setting Sun", the first Oasis single from <i>Be Here Now</i> and the dancier parts of The Charlatans - ie. it was this weirdly meta experience to hear them sing this song.

I think the difference between grime and indie (and I don't say this to bury indie and exhume grime) is that grime's lo-fi-ness is matched with a paradoxical but essential/complementary hi-fi-ness - grimey future electronics innit. Whereas indie's "death" as such is that for most practitioners this paradox has basically been resolved into two options, with bands either choosing a slick studio rock sound (ie. neither future nor past, just the never ending now of a non-signifying burnished rock sound. Think Manic Street Preachers' <i>This Is My Truth Tell Me Yours</i> or of course the Coldplay/Travis axis) or a determinedly lo-fi sound - there's no tense negotiations, nothing to be <i>worked</i> out in the music as it's being played. The vocabulary itself has been reduced, with "raw", "live" and "stripped back" now all considered to be basically synonymous.

Most of my favourite 90s indie artefacts (Saint Etienne and "the lost generation" yeah, but also stuff like The Happy Mondays, the last Auteurs album, The Beta Band, Piano Magic, Position Normal etc. etc.) escape these competing traps to some extent. They don't sound as high-tech and shiny as Timbaland of course, but there's an acknowledgment that high-tech has a role to play, that the negotiation between ambition and useful limitation has to be worked out on a case by case basis.

Obv. all of the current vaguely "indie" "great white hopes" (as Matt would have it) are similarly resistant to following a straightforwardly "lofi" approach.

dannyDMX
28-07-2005, 08:53 PM
bored at work and looking at old threads I posted on...

Andy Galkin was a regular at my party as well, probably there when Tim's brother DJ'd, it's a small world. Andy DJ'd with me at the last friday at Plant Bar before they shut down for remodeling and the removal of the DJ booth. Fun times.

But regarded what Wolf Eyes said, man, that's just totally ridiculous. Oh, anybody can download a Broken Flag cassette so that's not cool you have to get the flexi? Whatever. Most of it's pretty much unlistenable and totally boring anyway. I'm only somewhat aware of that because I spent my college years as a huge fan of what the people in that scene became when they moved out of power electronics and into metal, psych, rock etc. Stuff like Ramleh's Be Careful What You Wish For got me very excited. As part of the UK noise scene, this would all be tangentially related to Simon Wickham-Smith and Richard Youngs later on, who I still love.

On the other side, and i guess this is probably all another thread, the Broken Flag scene had crossover with a weird sort of UK Hardcore scene that maybe you all know more then me about. I know that one sometime member of Ramleh and/or Skullflower recorded as JFK, and that and Matthew Bower both appear on this UK comp I bought years ago that also featured God I think. anyway, back to the topic at hand...