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mr tom
15-08-2005, 10:48 PM
Evening Dissensus crew - been lurking for a while but thought I'd stick my head above the parapet and bring something to your attention.

Compare and contrast...

A: New Black Dog on Dust Science (released today)
http://mp3.juno.co.uk/MP3/SF189035-01-01-01.mp3
http://www.juno.co.uk/ppps/products/189035-01.htm

B: CiM - Shift (from Service Pack EP, first released on Delsin in 1999)
http://mp3.juno.co.uk/MP3/SF137860-01-01-04.mp3

It's fairly obvious that the Black Dog record has lifted a substantial chunk from the CiM record, then added new beats and some new melodies. Nothing particularly outrageous so far, although surprising than an artist of The Black Dog's, erm, pedigree (sorry) would resort to sampling a fellow electronic artist to form such a big part of his tune. But what makes this case slightly more disturbing for me is a couple of posts on this thread:

http://www.discogs.com/forums/topic?topic_id=69615

Martin Dust (who is now apparently one third of The Black Dog) says: "I can confirm the album contains no samples of other artists and none of are us aware of CiM or any of their/his tunes - none of us have ever heard of CiM until a couple of weeks ago - although please feel free to
point me a the tune [...] all I can say is we certain haven't sampled CiM or anyone else on the album - although CiM must have a couple of Oberheims, as that's what made the sound in the first place."

There's a bit more discussion going on at http://www.littledetroit.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=11919 but I'm interested to know what peeps on here think. Out of order or par for the course?

jed_
16-08-2005, 12:12 AM
It's fairly obvious that the Black Dog record has lifted a substantial chunk from the CiM record, then added new beats and some new melodies


i don't think its "fairly obvious" at all - it sounds like a fairly typical synth wash. i admit it is possible though.

Woebot
16-08-2005, 07:34 AM
I don't know what your connection top CIM is Mr Tom, I'm presuming you're a member of the group, a part of their "entourage" or maybe perhaps you're trolling at The Black Dog's expense? I know Ken's quite outspoken and entrenchant!

There's no way on earth TBD would so blatantly sample another artist. It'd be artistic suicide! More than that I just don't think it'd occur to them to do it. This is obviously some kind of coincidence, as Dust puts it, they've clearly got an Oberheim too.

Maybe you haven't used synths yourself? Maybe you don't know how simply this kind of thing can happen? Haven't people been complaining for nearly twenty years how all Techno sounds the same? Ha!

That said "Trojan Horus" is by the far the superior track. Big up TBD.

mr tom
16-08-2005, 09:41 AM
My connection to CiM is that I'm a mate of his, and I run the label that released his first music (prior to the track in question, which was released on Amsterdam's Delsin label).

I've been a fan of The Black Dog in its various incarnations since day one, which is what makes it so surprising to me that Ken should have done what it appears he has done, and I'm willing to listen to other theories.

But I know plenty about synths and production, and having listened to the two tracks side-by-side and receiving a detailed description of how the track was made from CiM (who, incidentally, has never owned an Oberheim), I'm 99% convinced it is a sample - though I agree with you that it's unlikely Ken would ever use a sample of someone else's work *deliberately*.

Here's what CiM himself had to say on LD this morning:

"To make it clear, I have no problem with any artist sampling any other artist. I have done it before (by accident and on purpose) and no doubt will do it again. And if asked, I will admit to what I have sampled, where I am aware of it. What I find odd in this instance is that The Black Dog are denying that they used the sample. As Carl Craig has been mentioned, this is a good example - if he had denied that he'd used the E2-E4 sample it would've been well, a rather odd thing to say.

I find it easier to believe that the sample was used accidentally i.e. TBD used it without knowing its origin. Why? I believe Ken (I don't know of Martin) is aware of me and my work - we were both on the Neoouija message board at one point and again on the short-lived Nort Route web radio chat board. He became friendly with my partner and in fact she visited Ken in Devon on one occasion. This makes it a bit trickier for me to understand why he would knowingly sample it (other than perhaps the fact that he just liked it?) - or if, as claimed he did not, why it was replicated almost note for note. This is conjecture on my part but maybe TBD did not know the origin of the sample.

I have disks full of unnamed samples from many sources. If I use a sample from there and someone points out to me that is actually a sample of someone, I would be happy (if slightly embarrassed perhaps) to admit my accident.

Whether accidental or on purpose, I see no real problem other than its use is being denied. I have no interest in extracting any kind of monetary gain from this (it would be hyprocritical of me given my stance on sampling the work of others) - I welcome an honest reply from TDB which will put all of this to bed.

For the techies - the chords were created using an Creative AWE32 soundcard for my old PC using its built-in waveforms. The higher pitched 'cry' chord sound is a similar patch using the same 'voice' waveform sound a few octaves up. The bassline is from my CS-15 synth - there is a subtle LFO sweeping the cut-off on the sound (you can hear me tweak this at the end of 'Shift' to emphasise the effect). It is the subtle sweeping of this as well as the fact that the bassline starts at the same time as the high string 'cry' also sounds. The strings were smothered in reverb from a Zoom 1202 effects unit giving it that 'wash' sound. I believe all those parts are present and audible in TBD track.

md's side by side comparison on page three of this thread makes this fairly clear I believe. I also did some comparisons below but md's is a better example.
http://nomorewords.net/shift.mp3
http://nomorewords.net/blackdogtrack.mp3

I agree with other posters that it is an easy sample to replicate. However, looking and hearing the detail of it and knowing how it was made, it is clear to me that - accidential or otherwise - it is a sample."

adverb
16-08-2005, 01:35 PM
i haven't given this much attention to the black dog since ed and andy left :p

oh, and i promise to never lurk again.

DigitalDjigit
16-08-2005, 01:53 PM
Yeah...the synth wash is pretty generic but the sound of them is clearly different even if they are playing the same chord. The only real suspicious part is the bassline figure. It is only 4 notes on the other hand. If the Black Dog guys were familiar with the guys music then it could have stuck in their head and they unknowingly reproduced it when they picked the same preset for a bass sound. I figure the tracks are different enough that it doesn't really matter.