Before you post yet another, ask yourself
- Thread starter k-punk
- Start date
k-punk said:
this is true.
anyone for a blue-eyed soul thread - just for a change, like?
hey k-punk, loved your cure and souxie pieces... looking forward to the next area of investigation.
forgive me when I bring up an old topic:
you said you hated hiphop because it is "an ugly reaction to an ugly situation". because the music reflects the violence and negativity of the world at large.
but you also love Skinny Puppy. which to me is precisely "an ugly reaction to an ugly situation". where the music reflects the violence and negativity of the world at large - themes SP loved to write songs about: animal torture, nuclear holocaust, etc.
for that matter, those early Cure albums you were talking about, Pornography for example, can also be called "an ugly reaction to an ugly situation". the "situation" being, in this case, a bit more existential.
do you see why I'm confused?
forgive me when I bring up an old topic:
you said you hated hiphop because it is "an ugly reaction to an ugly situation". because the music reflects the violence and negativity of the world at large.
but you also love Skinny Puppy. which to me is precisely "an ugly reaction to an ugly situation". where the music reflects the violence and negativity of the world at large - themes SP loved to write songs about: animal torture, nuclear holocaust, etc.
for that matter, those early Cure albums you were talking about, Pornography for example, can also be called "an ugly reaction to an ugly situation". the "situation" being, in this case, a bit more existential.
do you see why I'm confused?
k-punk
Spectres of Mark
Sure but I think maybe it's to do with worldliness ---- neither The Cure nor Skinnny Puppy have the same centrality in culture that hip hop now occupies ---- Put simply hip hop IS mainstream culture IS capitalism in a way that neither The Cure (not at the time of Pornography anyhow) nor S P were ----
It is to do with traps --- hip hop is a double trap, a trap at the level of the 'street' but also, and perhaps more desperately, at the level of desire and fantasy: all those cheap crib dreams ---- The Cure and Skinny Puppy disconnect with the world, are disgusted with it, to the point of pathology, sickness ---- but hip hop IS the world, is engaged in selling the world back to us, libidinally and commercially --- there is no disconnect ---
In any case, Skinny Puppy and The Cure are significantly different, in that the former have a politics --- yes, it is a politics of 'ugliness' or rather a politics of confronting the world with its ugliness, of rubbing people's face in the viscera of the discarded animals we so lightly consume, but that precisely presupposes a disconnection from the world, the worldly...
It is to do with traps --- hip hop is a double trap, a trap at the level of the 'street' but also, and perhaps more desperately, at the level of desire and fantasy: all those cheap crib dreams ---- The Cure and Skinny Puppy disconnect with the world, are disgusted with it, to the point of pathology, sickness ---- but hip hop IS the world, is engaged in selling the world back to us, libidinally and commercially --- there is no disconnect ---
In any case, Skinny Puppy and The Cure are significantly different, in that the former have a politics --- yes, it is a politics of 'ugliness' or rather a politics of confronting the world with its ugliness, of rubbing people's face in the viscera of the discarded animals we so lightly consume, but that precisely presupposes a disconnection from the world, the worldly...
what about grandmaster flash? he spat positivety pon mic
'White Lines (Don't Don't Do It)'
"(Don't let it blow your mind away) Baby!"
"Rang dang diggedy dang di-dang
Rang dang diggedy dang di-dang
Rang dang diggedy dang di-dang
Diggedy dang di-dang diggedy dang di-dang"
how can you not like that?
'White Lines (Don't Don't Do It)'
"(Don't let it blow your mind away) Baby!"
"Rang dang diggedy dang di-dang
Rang dang diggedy dang di-dang
Rang dang diggedy dang di-dang
Diggedy dang di-dang diggedy dang di-dang"
how can you not like that?
k-punk said:
Hiphop is wiser than Post Punk or Goth or Industrial angst because it realizes that unless you are really going to off yourself, you have to make this life liveable. thus there is a vitality in the music which is as much about the ugliness of the world as it is about the will to fight on, for the things that make it all worth while.
there is humor, there is life giving energy, it's FUN, it gives pleasure, it makes people have a good time, and it properly rocks a party.
this is why it is so popular around the world. and this is why capitalism jumps on it.
the same thing happened with Jazz 100 years ago. it was a music of the underclass, Robert Smith did not in his worst LSD crash have it as bad as people who have been beaten and worked to death their entire lives. YET there is celebration, there is fucking JOY in the music. as much as it expresses abject suffering. and it became so popular and commercialized that gradually it lost most of it's original meaning.
the same thing happened with Tango. it was originally a music of the slaves, a dance black men danced together. and gradually it became the music and dance preferred by bourgeois high society. (and the slaves who started it were not even allowed in the clubs)
So sure today you see the Republican party joining forces with the Source (or was it Vibe?), sure you see hiphop representing some of the worst aspects of this culture, but this is just the effect that Capitalism has on ANYTHING this popular.
I understand what you are saying and where you are coming from, K-Punk, but It is a mistake to not distinguish the music from the forces that exploit it; and it is short-sighted and shallow to blame hiphop for the world's sickness.
first, there's hip hop on mtv and commercial radio -- often rhythmically and sonically undeniable, and just as often politically and culturally retrograde == enslaved to material fantasies
then there's hip hop in all its diversity in nyc and throughout the country
i'm especially keen on the Real Live Show at the moment -- a live hip hop band that avoids all the sins associated with live hip hop bands
(btw real live show website is from a while back, i think, so tracks don't really reflect their current sound -- i.e., no upright bass or any such sound in today's show -- which is "funky, dancey, freaky + serious power")
and they're "conscious" w/o losing their edge
they have a back to africa bambataa feel to them, at least in my mind
basic point is that hip hop is not monolithic
though in the main, i agree with k-punk's take
then there's hip hop in all its diversity in nyc and throughout the country
i'm especially keen on the Real Live Show at the moment -- a live hip hop band that avoids all the sins associated with live hip hop bands
(btw real live show website is from a while back, i think, so tracks don't really reflect their current sound -- i.e., no upright bass or any such sound in today's show -- which is "funky, dancey, freaky + serious power")
and they're "conscious" w/o losing their edge
they have a back to africa bambataa feel to them, at least in my mind
basic point is that hip hop is not monolithic
though in the main, i agree with k-punk's take
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Grievous Angel
Beast of Burden
Yes we do need more Grime threads, and no, Mark is not wrong about hiphop.
Pay attention: he's not saying all hiphop is awful or that he likes no hiphop, though he's pretty disenchanted with it all. No, he's looking hiphop in the face, and loking at which it is and what it does. He has a pretty unarguable critical position IMO.
Still, that Skream mix... woo hoo!
Pay attention: he's not saying all hiphop is awful or that he likes no hiphop, though he's pretty disenchanted with it all. No, he's looking hiphop in the face, and loking at which it is and what it does. He has a pretty unarguable critical position IMO.
Still, that Skream mix... woo hoo!
Logan Sama
BestThereIsAtWhatIDo
Is it cos I is black?
i think less, longer, more intricate and thought-provoking grime threads would be better.
recently, people have said to me: "dissensus, that's that grime board, innit?"
i've tried to refute this, to little avail.
the problem is that most of the grime threads are about 5 posts long, full of smartarsery or say ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.
i disagree with mark about hip-hop. it is the most positive, unifying and vital cultural force of the last century, has blurred the boundaries of race in previously polarised areas of both the US, the uk and europe, provided a relevant means of expression for a lot of people who might not have had one otherwise, has only been overshadowed by jamaican dancehall and reggae in terms of sonic innovation and is a lot more fun to listen to that dodgy old industrial/plastic goth nonsense
recently, people have said to me: "dissensus, that's that grime board, innit?"
i've tried to refute this, to little avail.
the problem is that most of the grime threads are about 5 posts long, full of smartarsery or say ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.
i disagree with mark about hip-hop. it is the most positive, unifying and vital cultural force of the last century, has blurred the boundaries of race in previously polarised areas of both the US, the uk and europe, provided a relevant means of expression for a lot of people who might not have had one otherwise, has only been overshadowed by jamaican dancehall and reggae in terms of sonic innovation and is a lot more fun to listen to that dodgy old industrial/plastic goth nonsense
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Grievous Angel
Beast of Burden
I think one of the strengths of Dissensus is that on the one hand there is a large, international body of older music fans / writers with a lot of knowledge and analytical abaility, and they write about a vast range of different music, and on the other there's a strong contingent of grime fans, DJs and producers here who write with deep knowledge and expertise about that part of the musical spectrum. Dissenus wouldn't be nearly as interesting if either side disappeared. I actually find some of the "saying nothing" fan posts about Grime here pretty refreshing!stelfox said:
k-punk
Spectres of Mark
yes, exactlystelfox said:
Yep, quite. Surely it's a discussion board, which requires sustained discussion, not a blizzard of quips and disconnected facts.... Does Paul M really think that we need MORE grime threads, rather than fewer, better quality, more sustained threads?
i disagree with mark about hip-hop. it is the most positive, unifying and vital cultural force of the last century, has blurred the boundaries of race in previously polarised areas of both the US, the uk and europe, provided a relevant means of expression for a lot of people who might not have had one otherwise, has only been overshadowed by jamaican dancehall and reggae in terms of sonic innovation and is a lot more fun to listen to that dodgy old industrial/plastic goth nonsense
Yes, hip hop WAS sonically innovative --- up to about the turn of the millennium I think. But its sonic palette, like its fashions and its cartoon nihilistic anti-ethics, is now as well-established and well-entrenched as were those of hair metal in the mid 80s. (Marcello was right about that comparison). And yes, yes, I know that there are some exceptions, the odd 'conscious' crew here and there, but they are bucking the overwhelming trend for sonic conservatism and reactionary anti-politics.
The effect on teenagers that I see is largely disastrous btw - totally divisive, aggression-fueling, uniting white and black kids only in the conviction that it looking surly and menacing is the way forward, encouraging the idea that you can become as rich and successful as Jay-Z with very little effort. Hip hop now - it hasn't always been thus obv - is responsible for the depoliticization of mainstream black culture, the reduction of black aspiration to crass acquisitiveness and empty hedonism. Whatever happened to black nobility, black power? They were traded in for a new, admittedly highly lucrative, form of blackface, with artists taking on the role of stereotypes for $$$$$.
So Confucius, I just don't see any convincing distinction to be made between 'the music' and 'the forces that exploit it'.... in what way can capitalism be construed of as external to hip hop? On the contrary, hip hop is the face of capitalism now.
k-punk said:
Clark Derbes floats as strong winds from the Mississippi River fill a sheet tucked into his shoes. Moments later, hip hop fans killed him and ate his liver.
as the last hip-hop thread we had here got totally trashed, i'm gonna start a new one where myself and mark can talk about this stuff properly. i'm at work right now and can't really do the topic justice until i get home, so will do this later tonight. i think it could be interesting and useful. needless to say, i'm not buying that last post, mark. as usual you have some valid points, but more unusually, some of it's very sloppily considered and inches away from polemic.
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Grievous Angel
Beast of Burden
I'm always interested in more sustained threads. But the shape of the distribution curve of the grime-related thread lengths seems OK to me -- you can just skip over the tiddlers if you want to. And I think there's value in allowing a few different voices in who may not always be comfortable with the cut and thrust of set-piece threads...k-punk said:
... and I'm very much looking forward to a set-piece thread on hiphop. Stelfox vs K-Punk -- ding ding, seconds out...
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k-punk said:
Totally, totally agree with all of this- the idea of something that has always been rapaciously capitalist ('paid in full', anyone?) being 'co-opted' is just risible. Hip Hop now is an incredible example of capitalism's sleight of hand- absolutely everything concievably wrong with the world (hypercapitalism, violence, misogyny, ridiculously big cars) being celebrated again and again. But erm this is off topic somewhat
About the grime threads- I kind of like what ILM does with these things- when a pointless thread is posted one of their gargoyles appears with 'we've discussed this' and links to the requisite threads...