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Woebot
20-09-2005, 12:57 PM
Got a ton of info to drop on this thread (examining them in detail recently!!!), but in the meantime thought I'd open up the discussion to see what you people thought.....

mms
20-09-2005, 02:01 PM
love them - they look fine to me - and they do the job in rural areas that require less electricity

Melchior
21-09-2005, 01:22 AM
If I could have one on my roof, I would. Love the hell out of them.

David Bellamy came to Australia and NZ earlier this year to rail against them, and Russle Brown did a radio interview with a engineer who explained why Bellamy was utterly, utterly wrong on just about everything as it related to the NZ case. I'll see if I can find the link.

Woebot
21-09-2005, 09:20 AM
love them - they look fine to me - and they do the job in rural areas that require less electricity

i totally agree mms.

Woebot
21-09-2005, 09:24 AM
but you know the tide is turning against them in scotland....

check this link:
http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=436522005

(you may to to log in but its worth it)

and have a look at this:

Woebot
21-09-2005, 09:35 AM
These people (who I think are fairly wretched, though they may have point....) are lobbying against them.

http://www.viewsofscotland.org/

and they've a library of stuff here:

http://www.viewsofscotland.org/library/

The main UK regulating body is these people:

http://www.bwea.com/index.html

and they've quite a cool map of operational farms here:

http://www.bwea.com/ukwed/map-operational.html

Which doesnt look anything like the other peoples map does it (scratches head)

This is a big lobbying organisation:

http://www.embracewind.com/

This is an interesting bloke whos been doing it at a home-scale for years (learn how to build your own)

http://www.scoraigwind.com/index.htm

(interesting the proximity of the loonies to the big organisations, you tell its "Wind-Rush" time, when the rough edges havent been airbrushed away by big corporations like these people:

http://www.vestas.com/uk/Home/index.asp

Who are the Danish people who are the largest Wind Turbine manufacturers in the world (the UK representative of which incidentally wont return my calls, though the Danish Office seem amenable!) Being the biggest didnt stop them from losing about $400 million last year....

Quite a cool company specialising in smaller Generators:

http://www.unlimited-power.co.uk/Aerogen_wind_turbines.html

A company specialising in Wind Farm investment (though you'll need at least quarter of a million UK sterling)

http://www.fimltd.co.uk/main.htm

Woebot
21-09-2005, 09:36 AM
If I could have one on my roof, I would. Love the hell out of them.

David Bellamy came to Australia and NZ earlier this year to rail against them, and Russle Brown did a radio interview with a engineer who explained why Bellamy was utterly, utterly wrong on just about everything as it related to the NZ case. I'll see if I can find the link.

bellamy is fucking weird. da-a-vid bell-ur-me.

matt b
21-09-2005, 10:06 AM
these ones are right near our house- its a pleasure to drive past them- low impact and beautiful

http://www.skiptonweb.co.uk/gallery/picture2.asp?id=3757

Lichen
21-09-2005, 11:52 AM
I quite agree, They look stunning. What is local sentiment about them?

matt b
21-09-2005, 12:55 PM
the ones in the picture are on the opposite side of the wharfe valley to ilkley moor, which is pretty much unspoilt (and will stay so). therefore they are liked because the rest of thr surrounding area has been left alone.

when there was talk of putting of having a large wind farm on ilkley moor, people were pretty angry and campaigned to get the moor protected (which happened last year).

to be honest, locals can't really complain about the odd windmill when we've got this fcuker on our doorstep:

mms
21-09-2005, 01:06 PM
here is a farmer frrom cornwall too
http://www.bbc.co.uk/videonation/articles/c/cornwall_windfarm.shtml

one of the first places to get them was on the bypass from truro to st austell
there was a report of country file a few months back about mad protests in the lake district as well
but i think that just because they change the view of the countryside they don't make it worse - they just make it different - the slowness and size of them is relaxing and rather that than some sheep wool blackning power station lumbering over the countryside and poisoning the air .
Off shore wind farms are the one though - the big project is getting the military to agree to them and developing them so that they don't affect radar and notions of national security etc and then it's all go !!

Grievous Angel
21-09-2005, 01:34 PM
Obviously I love wind farms.

It should be noted that Bernard Ingham is being paid by the nuclear industry to campaign against wind farms. I believe the Views of Scotland group is a front for his lobbying firm but I could be wrong. Certainly the anti-wind farm lobby is now much better funded than the pro-wind farm lobby.

However that is not to dismiss the local opposition to wind farms -- which is often a proxy for rural poverty and the diminishing power and livelihoods of smaller farmers. Which is itself a product of the large supermarkets stitching up the food business supply chain (they should all be done by the OFT but it's toothless) and large, rich farmers manipulating the food subsidy rules in their favour.

Mind you Matt is a fan of nuclear power so none of this will concern him :).

When we build our house I very much want to have a wind turbine on there but my wife suggests that its position at the foot of a hill will mean the wind velocity will make that uneconomic. Photovoltaic cells is probably what we will need to do instead.

There used to be moderately good grants for domestic renewable energy installations -- and better ones are planned. However, last time my wife checked, they'd cancelled the old grants, and hadn't introduced the new ones. I am pretty angry about that bit of bureaucratic incompetence. No doubt it's yet another Defra bun fight.

mms
21-09-2005, 01:45 PM
Obviously I love wind farms.



However that is not to dismiss the local opposition to wind farms -- which is often a proxy for rural poverty and the diminishing power and livelihoods of smaller farmers. Which is itself a product of the large supermarkets stitching up the food business supply chain (they should all be done by the OFT but it's toothless) and large, rich farmers manipulating the food subsidy rules in their favour

Absolutley - supermarkets controlling what people can and cannot buy is a major issue - not just for farmers and livelihoods but alos for sustaining a healthy ecosystem on the whole , you'll end up with the crop equivalent of inbreds on tranquilizers soon. we need biodiversity and biodiversity creates wonderful food too.

matt b
21-09-2005, 01:52 PM
Absolutley - supermarkets controlling what people can and cannot buy is a major issue -

they don't control what you can buy if you don't use them- join a vegetable box scheme or use a local greengrocer (and butcher/fishmonger if that's your bag)

for small producers the nfu has failed badly, siding with large producers and the government (who have no interest in sustainable development- what happened to agenda 21 for example?)

mms
21-09-2005, 02:20 PM
they don't control what you can buy if you don't use them- join a vegetable box scheme or use a local greengrocer (and butcher/fishmonger if that's your bag)

for small producers the nfu has failed badly, siding with large producers and the government (who have no interest in sustainable development- what happened to agenda 21 for example?)

yep i know i was bought up on veggies from the W.I. market and meat from the local butchers :) . Gonna sort this sort of thing out up here - the other thing i want to do is get an allotment but there is a long waiting list

Grievous Angel
21-09-2005, 02:22 PM
they don't control what you can buy if you don't use them- join a vegetable box scheme or use a local greengrocer (and butcher/fishmonger if that's your bag)Not possible for most.


for small producers the nfu has failed badly, siding with large producers and the government (who have no interest in sustainable development- what happened to agenda 21 for example?)Food really isn't a competitive market -- but Terry Leahy et al repeat this like a mantra. Supermarkets use intimidation to reinforce their control of food value chain. The political quid pro quo is that they've delivered cheap food and obviously the big super markets aren't "all bad".

But...

... you can understand why some small farms are angry.

(Though lots more are whingeing their way to the bank.)

matt b
21-09-2005, 02:28 PM
Not possible for most.

most supermarkets are out of town, so people have to drive to them. i can't think of a single part of england (rural scotland and wales may be different), where you could not find a viable alternative to a supermarket for (at least) fresh vegetables- which are extortionate in supermarkets.


i have very little sympathy for farmers in general- they've been undercutting each other for years, trying to get supermarket contracts. such shortsightedness has led to their downfall- they should have stuck together (esp. dairy farmers)

mms
21-09-2005, 02:52 PM
i have very little sympathy for farmers in general- they've been undercutting each other for years, trying to get supermarket contracts. such shortsightedness has led to their downfall- they should have stuck together (esp. dairy farmers)

the situation is alot more complicated than this though -not all farmers own their land and not all 'farmers' work their land - they simply own farmland, it's as bad as any other situation.

ome
26-09-2005, 10:42 AM
http://www.good-energy.co.uk/

change your electricity supplier? support wind-power

Woebot
27-09-2005, 09:24 AM
Obviously I love wind farms.

It should be noted that Bernard Ingham is being paid by the nuclear industry to campaign against wind farms. I believe the Views of Scotland group is a front for his lobbying firm but I could be wrong. Certainly the anti-wind farm lobby is now much better funded than the pro-wind farm lobby.

Ha! :)

No I spent the last month researching them cos I was seriously considering setting one up! The bottom line however is that if you buy four farms in Scotland, slog through the extremely lengthy and expensive approval process to put wind-generators up you'll be lucky if you get permission for one of them. This directly to me from the man who the Scotsman ring up for quotes.

BTW Paul look at the web counter on that Views from Scotland page. It says about 2,000-3,000 hits in total. Thats probably less than Shards Fragments and Totems gets in one afternoon! ;)

Woebot
27-09-2005, 09:27 AM
http://www.good-energy.co.uk/

change your electricity supplier? support wind-power

Yes but did you see those people interviewed in The Guardian? Whingeing about how although theyre signed up to a Renewable energy power company their bills are still going up. Had to laugh (rather cruelly) Seems to show a fundamental failure to grasp the situation, that (forget the eco-dimension sharpish) the power is running out. Darwinian times....

Grievous Angel
27-09-2005, 09:48 AM
No I spent the last month researching them cos I was seriously considering setting one up!Big up. Insofar as I understand it, you need big money to get in the game and while there are subsidies available it's a slog to get them. Nevertheless there's a perception that wind power is subsidy-driven rather than being viable on its own -- a charge which is bound to be justifiable in some instances, because subsidies are never 100% efficient.

The bottom line however is that if you buy four farms in Scotland, slog through the extremely lengthy and expensive approval process to put wind-generators up you'll be lucky if you get permission for one of them. This directly to me from the man who the Scotsman ring up for quotes.Yes, the opposiition to wind farms is a powerful lobby and, Ingham aside, will become more and more popular. Just as (some) country dwellers objected to "their" land being inundated so hydro electric power could provide electricity for cities, so they will object when land is taken up with windmills -- and more pertinently, the vast power lines that need to go to and from the windmills. In other words I don't write off all opponents of wind power as being in the pay of the nuclear lobby -- even if most of the anti-wind groups are.

For me the big underlying issue is about technology adoption curves and research funding. Wind power technology is going through a phase of exponential growth in its generative efficiency. In other words, it's so immature even modest technical advances are having a big effect. Right now it's possible to argue that the net energy investment in wind power is negative -- i.e. the energy costs of making the technology outweigh the energy savings from generation. But that's largely because wind (and wave) have been chronically underfunded compared to nuclear, whose subsidies, R&D and capital investment have been mind-bogglingly vast. If that money were to be diverted to wind and wave, we'd have excellent sustainable power generation in 15 years.

But it would be a brave government that made that bet.

BTW Matt, piss-taking aside, I thought you were a nuclear fan?