indie versus hip hop

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kennel_district

Active member
from http://blackdownsoundboy.blogspot.com

"Lots of people grew up to, and still listen to, indie. If you go to those gigs, ignoring the obvious issues with musical formulism and tediously safe rituals, even in this city they are tediously monocultural. A thin slice of people of the same class and race, each reinforcing their overwhelming similarities."

I was having a discussion with a friend the other day, and I was saying a similar thing about hip hop as this says about indie - that it has lead itself into several different aesthetic and cultural culd-de-sacs, comprised of excessive reverence for form, a far-too-particular form of wordplay, and certain frames, such as the 'guns and booty' which are at best limiting, or at worst 'aesthetically brutal'.

But reflecting on it I think we're both wrong. In the end you can have a transcendental aesthetic experience from any music - regardless of whether it's stuck in an aesthetic cul-de-sac, just as you could have architecture that moves you in a cul-de-sac. Music's intention isn't necessarily its effect.

I think the error Martin Clark makes is first of all using race as a category, a divider. It's not, or at least it shouldn't be. Anyone who decries racism while talking about how it's great that different races can have a dialogue is stuck on the same side of the coin. The only way we can celebrate race is if we accept it doesn't make us different as a group - that shared racial grouping is a defensive, aggressive act, that we are each different.

In response I'd like to make the point that I believe people at an indie gig are no more or less differentiated by class than those at grime nights - but being someone who now frequents far more indie than any other type of music events I wouldn't say that I'm best placed to report on this, but I get the impression that most types of music attract in the main a certain self-selected subsection of people, whose positions in the various fields that constitute everyday life are reasonably similar.
 
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baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
Really interesting topic - have been thinking much of late about how, at virtually every club night in London I go to, the audience is over 90 per cent white or over 90 per cent black. Music seems still to be quite divisive.

Only exception to this 'rule' I can think of is certain underground hip hop events.

Actually links in with a previous thread on Dissensus, concerning to what extent black British people listen to 'white' music, whether that be Coldplay or the Smiths or the Stones or whatever.

As for a transcendental moment in an aesthetic cul-de-sac, I agree that this is possible, but I am getting more and more frustrated by going out and hearing 'dead' musics such as rave and old skool dnb, however much I love them.
 
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brotherjames

Member
Funny…and a little off-the-topic:

Though reading this book (http://www.zuopress.com/books.htm) and also judging by the photos I discovered there, there were more black people in hardcore/punk concerts in the USA than I thought ( as thought there were none).
In that context the Bad Brains chapter is also very interesting.
 
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gumdrops

Well-known member
when i go to rock gigs in london, the audience is more often than not, 95% white. when i go to a soul/R&B or a hip hop gig, its usually quite a bit more racially mixed.

slightly related, im still waiting to hear how after copious hipster namedropping, whether franz ferdinand will ever make anything that sounds like they really HAVE been listening to lil jon.
 
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baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
Beta Band were the only group that I can think of who transferred name dropping into reality (with the prodcution by C-Swing on their 2nd/3rd album).

Maybe audience is mixed at hip hop gigs (esp semi-'conscious' stuff like Roots Manuva), but not at any hip-hop club I've ever been to. Maybe people are afraid, as I can't think of any other explanation.

Another exception (probably the classic): roots reggae.
 
K

kennel_district

Active member
gumdrops said:
when i go to rock gigs in london, the audience is more often than not, 95% white. when i go to a soul/R&B or a hip hop gig, its usually quite a bit more racially mixed. .
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Should it matter if the audience is racially mixed or not?
 
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kennel_district

Active member
baboon2004 said:
It shouldn't matter, but don't you find it weird?
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It's a bit utopian, but what I'm trying to say is we should try and ignore it, because I'm not sure anything good comes of focussing on people's racial identity.
 
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baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
kennel_district said:
It's a bit utopian, but what I'm trying to say is we should try and ignore it, because I'm not sure anything good comes of focussing on people's racial identity.
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I agree - had a similar conversation earlier this week. But I suppose I'm just intrigued, and a little disappointed if (and it's only an if) some people feel loath to come to certain events because of the colour of their skin (fear of standing out etc).
 
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treblekicker

True Faith
I think the number of died in the wool indie kids is slowly declining. I certainly see younger people lacking the intense musical tribalism that seemed to much commoner in my youth, and there are cultural reports that back this up.

However the few times in recent years I've been to an indie disco it's been a depressing experience musically. People only dance to the records they know and then leave the dance floor - WTF? This hardcore (and they're generally older) are the dying breed of cultural conservatism, I hope.

I think just as with food, a varied diet is a good thing and that people should mix things up more. One comment I will make though is that just about all of my white friends listen to 'black' music as well as indie rock or whatever. However, although Timbaland and Pharrell have both gone on the record about being Radiohead fans, Kanye West digs Franz Ferdinand and Timbaland worked with Beck, I don't see much crossover out there generally. I've read that in the 70s this was less true and that Led Zep for example were big with black communities in the states. Anyone had any other experience? It's a shame if crossover is becoming less prevalent with modern music (and its fans).
 
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baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
treblekicker said:
I think the number of died in the wool indie kids is slowly declining. I certainly see younger people lacking the intense musical tribalism that seemed to much commoner in my youth, and there are cultural reports that back this up.

However the few times in recent years I've been to an indie disco it's been a depressing experience musically. People only dance to the records they know and then leave the dance floor - WTF?

I think just as with food, a varied diet is a good thing and that people should mix things up more. One comment I will make though is that just about all of my white friends listen to 'black' music as well as indie rock or whatever. However, although Timbaland and Pharrell have both gone on the record about being Radiohead fans, Kanye West digs Franz Ferdinand and Timbaland worked with Beck, I don't see much crossover out there generally. I've read that in the 70s this was less true and that Led Zep for example were big with black communities in the states. Anyone had any other experience? It's a shame if crossover is becoming less prevalent with modern music (and its fans).
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Agree with all of that. Thank God for less indie tribalism. And last time I went to an indie disco, almost got into a big argument concerning the fact that not a single record by a black artist was ever played. Which, given the fact they were playing the Stones and Blondie, was ridiculous.

I too have seen little crossover in terms of white acts being massively popular with black fans. Only exception I can think of is Gwen Stefani, and, since she's produced by the Neptunes etc etc etc, that's kinda cheating.
 
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gumdrops

Well-known member
kennel_district said:
It's a bit utopian, but what I'm trying to say is we should try and ignore it, because I'm not sure anything good comes of focussing on people's racial identity.
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are you saying you would rather we didnt acknowledge each other's racial identity and more or less, just forgot about it?
 
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kennel_district

Active member
gumdrops said:
are you saying you would rather we didnt acknowledge each other's racial identity and more or less, just forgot about it?
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Well, what good comes of this acknowledgement? I don't believe there's any kind of music that can only be made by a person of a particular race. After all, even if racial experience or identity is a component of music, what's to stop someone using empathy, writing music in character, so to speak?
 
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gumdrops

Well-known member
kennel_district said:
Well, what good comes of this acknowledgement?
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sorry but its a bit late to wish we didnt have to recognise that not everyone is of the same race. rather than forget that, i think its good to embrace our differences as much as the similarities. how boring london would be if everyone was the same. cant people acknowledge ethnicity/cultural background without that itself being thought of as a blight on someone's individuality?
 
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don_quixote

Trent End
what really depresses me is that the best indie-club night in cambridge you have to turn up at half past fucking eight to hear anything decent and then they start playing shit and by the time it hits midnight it's fucking brown eyed girl, sweet fucking home alabama or the red hot christing chili peppers.
 
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