Rap & US hardcore punk

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brotherjames

Member
Rap & US hardcore punk


I don’t know if this is an interesting discussion but as I’m reading Going Underground book (http://www.zuopress.com/) I find myself trying to find parallelisms, differences and similarities between to the genres and realities. As going through the book I wonder how rap develop in relation to white underground music. Where they two parallel and detached stories?
I know there are good books dedicated to urban black music but it would interesting to find out what made these to scenes developed in separated ways and with different results…
 
matt b

matt b

Indexing all opinion
brotherjames said:
Rap & US hardcore punk I wonder how rap develop in relation to white underground music. Where they two parallel and detached stories?
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rap took over from punk as the sound of 'disenfrancised' suburban white kids?
 
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brotherjames

Member
matt b said:
rap took over from punk as the sound of 'disenfrancised' suburban white kids?
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I don’t know enough to subscribe that, but for some time I guess the two realities developed at the same time. As for the suburban class white kids I think that their condition was a more complex one.
The punk-hardcore scene was a lot more diverse than people think: from the Austin scene to Beastie Boys in NY through Suicidal Tendencies going metal and flirting street gang aesthetics to Hüsker Dü with their existential doubts, there’s plenty to grasp.
What is interested though is to try to find moments or situations when the two genres realities showed some will to come closer.

Sorry for the english
 
matt b

matt b

Indexing all opinion
brotherjames said:
I don’t know enough to subscribe that, but for some time I guess the two realities developed at the same time. As for the suburban class white kids I think that their condition was a more complex one.
The punk-hardcore scene was a lot more diverse than people think: from the Austin scene to Beastie Boys in NY through Suicidal Tendencies going metal and flirting street gang aesthetics to Hüsker Dü with their existential doubts, there’s plenty to grasp.
What is interested though is to try to find moments or situations when the two genres realities showed some will to come closer.

Sorry for the english
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rap and punk/hardcore shared (up until the early 90s) a critique of mainstream society-as did reggae- so there are 'links'.
more specifically,anthrax incorporated hip hop into their sound, but it was shit, beastie boys started as a h/c band etc.....but i don't think there was any great 'sharing' until the awful 'rap-rock' genre took off, and even then it was the worse bits of both.
 
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brotherjames

Member
matt b said:
but i don't think there was any great 'sharing' until the awful 'rap-rock' genre took off, and even then it was the worse bits of both..
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I definitely agree with you. When speak about the "the worse bits of both..." what are you are you referring to?
And what can we say were best bits of the two?
 
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spotrusha

Well-known member
i started a hardcore/punk band called cold world that played traditional ny-style hc (for the most part) with hip-hop influence. we were instantly one of the most popular bands in the current hc scene, yet kids didn't know the influences or references made in our music. i found it pretty interesting.
people pay upwards to $100 for our t-shirts on e-bay and actually don't know what are on these shirts. for instance we made a bathing ape rip-off shirt, and i saw kids posting on the internet "hey, i got this cold world shirt with a blog on it, it might be a head. what is it?" why would this person buy a shirt not knowing what is on it?! haha
anyways, from being involved with the hc scene for about 11 years or so, the main similarity between it and hip-hop is they're both cut off from the rest of the music world. hc kids instantly write off any rock-based music as "fag shit" if it's not hardcore/punk/metal just like most hip-hop heads would write off any heavy guitar-oriented music as "headbangin whiteboy shit"
there's also the same cliques. kids who are only into the old-style, kids who are only into emotional stuff, and kids who are only into the new hot shit.
 
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believekevin

Well-known member
publicenemyminorthreat.jpg


Public Enemy / Minor Threat via Glen E. Friedman - sayin' !
 
M

Melchior

Taking History Too Far
I love US hardcore and love hip hop, but I've never heard anything that was any good that combined the two. Every MCs "hardcore" band has been bad hard rock and every hardcore "rapper" has sucked.

The styles just don't mix well in my experience.
 
matt b

matt b

Indexing all opinion
sapstra said:
Judgement Night OST (1993)
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i was trying to remember what would be the best single example of taking "the worse bits of both". this wins. truly awful.

in fact, the whole rap/rock thing takes the anger and aggression that make much of hip hop and h/c interesting and does something to it so it sounds incredibly trite. good work.


the PE/ minor threat link is glen . e friedman- its not musical, but does have some fashion similarities (with the trews moving from hop hop to h/c, rather than vice versa)
 
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spotrusha

Well-known member
Melchior said:
I love US hardcore and love hip hop, but I've never heard anything that was any good that combined the two. Every MCs "hardcore" band has been bad hard rock and every hardcore "rapper" has sucked.

The styles just don't mix well in my experience.
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for the most part you're right, but you might wanna check what we did out. there isn't any actual rapping, it's straight up hc with a scratch part/sample here or there and interludes. we got jim jones on that shit, too haha.
www.lockinout.com
 
S

SIZZLE

gasoline for haters
Rage Against The Machine, supposedly Zach De La Rocha was gonna have a solo hiphop record on def jux at some point, but it never came out.

Kool Keith is supposed to have some undcredited vocals on a hardcore tune along with Godfather Don. Supposedly Godfather Don was involved with a hardcore band for a while but I never managed to find out which.

Rick Rubin is definitely worth spending some time on as well, kind of the prototypical headbanging hiphop producer. Last I heard he was producing Slipknot and telling them they needed to study Lil Jon. His tune on Jay-Z's last LP 99 Problems is a great reminder of that sound, which I still love.

There are definitely some intersection points, young angry urban music made for dancing. There's a big hardcore presence within the graffiti scene as well, although the connection between hiphop music and graffiti could definitely be questioned in 2005.

Also, don't be dissing Onyx man. When they came out that was my shit.
 
P

petergunn

plywood violin
Lil Jon did a track that used "reignition" by bad brains... i heard it's pretty good, but i haven't heard it...
 
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treblekicker

True Faith
I think both of them have a lot of cultural similarities even if they sound different . they're both overwhelmingly male musics, they are both obsessed with ideas of purity - of not selling it out or keeping it real and they both appealed to white suburban teens in the America. Lets not forget the oft quoted factoid that 90% of hip hop sells to this demographic. At the beginning of both genres in NY at clubs like the Roxy, there was supposed to be a lot of crossover.

Finally as an ex-skater, the two genres that were all on the videos and popular with us were either hip hop or punk.

However, have to say most crossover doesn't work for me - it's like the Red Hot Chilli Peppers - I like funk, I like rock. Doesn't mean I want them to breed.
 
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Buick6

too punk to drunk
It's funny coz Public enemy were described as 'hardcore rap' in their early days..

It's interesting because with improved production techniques RAP has become the HEAVIEST music sonically, on a recorded level, no doubt. It's interesting as it perfectly follows the continuum that afro-american music is always the HEAVIEST (or most soulful or feeling) and the lame-ass whiteys are always trying to catch up (stamps no return!!)

RAP & HARDCORE were defintely the most influential new music forms of the 80s, but would they be pegged under post-punk? (Actually rap is a weird blend of post-funk and post-punk!!)
 
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Melchior

Taking History Too Far
spotrusha said:
for the most part you're right, but you might wanna check what we did out. there isn't any actual rapping, it's straight up hc with a scratch part/sample here or there and interludes. we got jim jones on that shit, too haha.
www.lockinout.com
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I d/led the mp3 sample and you guys sound good but the hip hop part in the track I heard (can it all be so simple?) was, no offence, completely redundant.

But I'll be honest here - I'm not interested in progression in HC. I pretty much like what I like (straight up, fast hc punk and youth crew). I'm not a part of the scene any more and while I like some bands that are doing different stuff (blood brothers etc) I most tell hc kids I meet/friends with etc that I wish that HC would stick to what it is good at.
 
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Melchior

Taking History Too Far
Octopus? said:
Nobody's mentioned The Roots' "!!!!!!!” from Phrenology...but that's pretty understandable.
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That's actually one of the better examples of the genre. Didn't their guitarist from that record go on to tour with a nu-metal band? They name checked decent HC bands in the notes as well.
 
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Octopus?

Well-known member
Actually, after digging the album out I realize I jumped the gun in making fun of "!!!!!!"...it actually does hold up well (and flows really nicely into "Sacrifice").

Their guitarist Ben Kenny seems to have toured with Incubus (!?) and was the catalyst for the track. There's the expected Minor Threat and Bad Brains mentions, but I wasn't familiar with Zach De La Rocha's work in Inside Out before at all.
 
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