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scarboi
15-10-2004, 04:53 PM
I'm curious what you people think of this whole thing.

Initially when I started listening to underground/indie hiphop I was pretty dismissive, since I've got my head adjusted I've become fairly interested.

One guy I took an about face on was Sage Francis.

The general consensus on ILM seems to be that he's either too serious,
or joking and not particualrly funny.

But the guy has this political side that I'm really enjoying.

Has anyone heard the song Hey Gandhi?

Its really good, some genuinely political music and in the current political climate here in US.

So he has a sense of humor, he's political and he is pretty poetic.

Thats pretty much all I'm looking for in a lyricist.

Anticon I liked initially and now I just can't listen to say, cLOUDDEAD anymore.

Def Jux I never really got into at all, Aesop Rock's first album I like though.

Recently I've been listening to Buck 65, he's got his moments.

So any suggestions, opinions?

How about the slightly surreal Lex label?

Hiphop as brought to you by Warp.


Overall I enjoy grime and mainstream crunk much more than undie
but what do you think?

scarboi
15-10-2004, 05:50 PM
I forgot a few things

Rhymesayers for me is a local thing, you know Atmosphere, Eyedea and Abilities, Brother Ali.

Brother Ali is everything I like about underground hiphop.

Shadows on the Sun reminds me a little of Solesides and a little bit of Killah Priest.


So yeah big up for Rhymesayers.


And I forgot Boombip

Seed to Sun is excellent, but it could be seen as IDM as much as anything.

DavidD
15-10-2004, 08:11 PM
I don't really dig the attitude towards underground hip-hop on ILM, although of course I understand the criticisms. Certainly a lot of it IS backward-looking, but i feel like that's about as worthless a criticism as "mainstream hip-hop is dumb music" etc. - sort of beside the point or wholly inaccurate.

Yeah Sage Francis is great, because he tempers his political side w/ humor, unlike a guy like Talib Kweli whose politics amount to laundry lists of the world's problems. I really like the Cannibal Ox and El-P albums from Def Jux, two of my favorite albums of the 00s. Aesop Rock's Labor Days has its moments, and I think Mr. Lif and Murs have done some great work too. Every year there are odd random indie hip-hop releases I like too that come from guys who most people wouldn't recognize - last year, Louis Logic's album was pretty terrific (check out his ode to alcoholism, "Dos Factotum," and my personal favorite track "Idiot Gear.")

This year I've heard good things about the J-Zone album but I haven't had a chance to check it.

I'm also all over MF Doom's releases...I haven't checked the second Viktor Vaughn album, but Madvillain is easily one of my favorite albums of the year - his little jokes and one-liners remind me of my dad's sense of humor, plus the absurdity of a guy like Sun Ra, playing with words ("Mystery, My Story," etc) and the production is easily the best work I've heard Madlib do. MM Food looks like it'll be hot too.

Rhymesayers - I like Brother Ali and Atmosphere, they've released some great music too.

scarboi
15-10-2004, 08:43 PM
I was thinking about this when I was driving around in my car today.

My major quibble with a lot of this is (undie), is that it is classicist hiphop, meaning two turntables and a microphone.

And then I'm thinking, "Wait you don't like something because its being true to its roots, thats a stupid reason to dislike anything"

So I'd say if you like hiphop from the early nineties, meaning A Tribe Called Quest or whatever,
you will probably like this.

But then I'm thinking, " This is all backwards, if you don't like commercial hippop because its materialistic, and dont like undie because its intellectual, you're just looking for reasons to dislike the music"

I guess my problem is this, the art of sampling is a varied and fascinating past time but I will always kind of see it as a limitation. Sampling can only take you so far.

Thats one of the many reasons I like grime so much. Yes it uses samples but they are just one of the many ways the musicians make the music.

Any comments on people buying vinyl on Ebay at exorbitant rates just so they can feel like they are part of hiphop?

It just feels screwed up, back in the day vinyl was the easiest way to make the music.

Now any kid with a ripped off copy of Fruityloops and Reason can make music, burn it to a disc, and bump it in his car. Thats demoing technology, same as dubplates.

Traditionalists and Progressives, can't live with em, can't live without them.

machine hugger
17-10-2004, 08:37 PM
Have y'all checked in to Lyrics Born yet? It's alot in vein of Lex but a bit more fun. It comes from the Latyrx crew out here in SF. It's worth the check especially for the Cut Chemist track on there! that one track alone can split atoms.
I was a bit amazed that "gangasta" boy here (work) went nuts on Prince Po. And the Viktor Vaughn is worth checking although when listening you feel a bit pressed to say his tracks are a bit contrived. He tries too hard to create something unique.

xero
17-10-2004, 11:19 PM
Antipop consortium live were not turntable based but still very much hip hop. All the members rapped and played electronic instruments, sometimes at the same time. I would definitely recommend the recent album by headset on stefan betke's scape records, which was made in germany I think, but with guest rappers including beans from antipop.

SergDun
18-10-2004, 03:00 AM
well I'd recommend:

sage francis
sixtoo
mf doom (viktor vaugh 2 is weak though, don't bother)
Aesoprock's Float is one of my favorite albums
Company Flow and El-p's solo stuff...I wouldn't recommend cannibal ox though, most people love that album but I think it's stupid and a waste of el-p beats.
Bigg Jus
Them
Juggaknots
The Coup
Semi Official
Qwel
Bleubird
The Goods
Busdriver
Glue
Definetly the older Solesides/Quannum stuff, I'm not too crazy about the latest Blackalicious stuff.
5Deez
Diverse
AwolOne
Time Machine
Edan

I don't think indie hiphop is really about the whole 2 turntables and a microphone, I think the people that push that shit more are those kids who are still hanging on to their 4 elements dream and for the most part I think most of the underground has realized how dumb that shit is. But then I might be giving them too much credit because there are still lots of shitty kids preaching it. I think most of those kids are those entry level underground hiphop fans, like people who enjoy dilated peoples or kids who think heiro is making classic records.

One reason I like indie hiphop is just because its kids pushing their own ideas and experiences outside of the traditional structure and just trying to be themselves. It brings fresh ideas and breaks from the norm. Unfortunatly a lot times the results are horrible but everyonce in a while someone makes a record worth listening too.

I don't think indie hiphop is as intellectual as many would like to believe. I do think that it challenges conventional hiphop more but I'm bothered by the idea that some kids think you have to be smart to understand it or that if you don't like it then you aren't smart enough or some shit.

scarboi
18-10-2004, 04:28 AM
umm thanks, that should do me as far as suggestions goes

it'll take me awhile to just check these guys out

one thing I got to be careful about is confusing my mental filing system with reality

I tend to think of hip hop as the genre name in its entirety

like rock and roll was a genre

rock and roll can mean a lot of different things, but there is the music that started it all

Chuck Berry , Little Richard

thats rock and roll

Kool Herc, Run Dmc

thats hip hop

but you know reality has to get in the way of my pat little theories


I think of groups like the Jurassic Five as being a little bit like punk rock ( back to the basics)

but generally I don't like groups who take things back to the basics

what I love about hip hop is its openmindedness to try new things, new ideas

so it would be sad if you got this wave of musicians who idolized the old skool, back in the day

and completely missed the point of the music

which was experimental, and openminded

doesn't seem to likely though

Backjob
18-10-2004, 04:57 AM
I think part of the trouble with this whole criticism of undie is that it assumes that the whole of non-commercial hip hop sounds like Def Jux. For me, there is loads of "undie" that I love, but none of it is weirdy-beardy mcs spitting over heavy metal beats about something incomprehensible.

I'd hold up a producer like J Rawls, for example, as somebody that makes really nice hip hop records without some special agenda, but just not in a style or through a distribution channel that will ever lead to mainstream success. I still love the "Essence of J Rawls" comp he put out a few years back, especially "Great Live Caper" with J Live.

But that's kind of a product of its time - I don't think there are many people still making this kind of stuff. A few years back you'd get these kind of melodic, laid back sample-based tracks that weren't either nostalgia-fests like J5 or experimental tomfoolery like Prefuse 73. I personally haven't been in a hip hop vinyl shop for at least 2 years, so I dunno what's going on nowadays - anybody care to comment?

luka
19-10-2004, 10:08 AM
jean grae is the one though. look out for her.

originaldrum
19-10-2004, 10:35 AM
weirdy-beardy mcs spitting over heavy metal beats about something incomprehensible.

that is too funny.




do any you guys get aussie hip hop - certainly not about to let itself outside "undie" territory, and has come a long way from the early days......

try and check out

pegasus
mass mc
ken oath
lazy grey
bias b
lyrical commision
750 rebels
hospice crew

plus theres loads more so if you can search it down - give it a listen but remember the aussie accent isn't for everyone



p.s. croation hip hop rules - raw like old ntm

be.jazz
19-10-2004, 11:47 AM
jean grae is the one though. look out for her.
And, as a bonus, she's Abdullah Ibrahim's daughter, so maybe there'll be a Nas-Grae-Dara-Ibrahim quartet one day...

Backjob
20-10-2004, 04:00 AM
originaldrum - does that come out of Sydney or Melbourne? Cos I'm in sydney next week and would love to see aussie hip hop if there's any on...

DavidD
20-10-2004, 06:41 AM
Def Jux isn't weirdy-beardy MCs over metal, so people know...

Backjob
20-10-2004, 07:05 AM
So how would you describe Co Flow then?

DavidD
20-10-2004, 07:34 AM
CoFlow doesn't sound like that either! Its more influenced by New York hardcore like Kool G Rap and Wu Tang and Mobb Deep. Minimalist, dirty, minor key.

Backjob
20-10-2004, 07:47 AM
I guess the confusion comes from my using the word "heavy metal" - I don't mean guitars, I mean that a lot of the beats have that dirty, grimy lo-fi sound, and are frequently deliberately atonal - all characteristics that I personally associate more with metal than with hip hop, hence "heavy metal". Get me?

DavidD
20-10-2004, 08:04 AM
I guess but you can say that about tons of early to mid 90s NYC hip-hop.

originaldrum
20-10-2004, 10:14 PM
originaldrum - does that come out of Sydney or Melbourne? Cos I'm in sydney next week and would love to see aussie hip hop if there's any on...


sydney, brisbane & melbourne - there should be somethin on i'll pm ya

Woebot
21-10-2004, 02:33 PM
<img alt="bongo.jpg" src="http://www.woebot.com/images/dissensus/bongo.jpg" width="640" height="480" border="0" />

Backjob
21-10-2004, 03:28 PM
If ever a record store deserved to die, it's that one...

I'll never forget the look the guy gave me when I asked if they had "Stankonia" in stock (did it just to wind him up).

Jamie S
22-10-2004, 12:53 PM
I loved that Bigg Jus ep a while ago, with Gaffling Whips and Plantation Rhymes on it. It seemed to have all the rhythmic inventiveness of Co Flow, but a lot sweeter. I love the way he keeps an even beat MCing while you get three or four different rhythms underneath.

Anyway, there was an album Black Mamba Serums that was withdrawn and then re-released with different versions this year. It's really underwhelming. Does anyone know the story behind why it get re-recorded/remixed whatever? Has anyone got the first one and is that any good?

As someone said upthread, APC are cool live. Stage in total darkness, just a few glowing bits of kit - and they kept telling the lighting guy to make it even darker.

Woebot
22-10-2004, 01:20 PM
If ever a record store deserved to die, it's that one...

I'll never forget the look the guy gave me when I asked if they had "Stankonia" in stock (did it just to wind him up).
i'm afraid i couldnt agree more.

scarboi
02-12-2004, 01:17 AM
Just wanted to revive this long dead thread to say.

The new Sage Francis album is killer.

A Healthy Distrust on Epitaph records



So far the highlights are the aforementioned Slow Down Gandhi

and Sea Lion featuring Will Oldham


Seriously some of the best stuff I've heard from this Paul Francis character.


I'm just glad he's not particulary hip anymore.

Sometimes being marginalized makes artists work harder.

DavidD
02-12-2004, 03:46 AM
I haven't heard the new one, but Sage is ridiculously consistent and hardworking, but much more importantly, his music is pretty awesome. His new album is distro'd on Epitaph so you should be able to find it anywherr.

scarboi
02-12-2004, 04:33 AM
More than anything He reminds me of underground rock in america in the eighties.

Not musically, just from the "influential for years" and "completely humbling" angles.


He's not hiphop's Bob Dylan, he's Husker Du, or the Replacements.


Nah he's the Minutemen

DavidD
02-12-2004, 06:58 AM
check this awesome 80s remix of "slow down ghandi" by this cat reanimator here. (http://www.soundclick.com/bands/3/reanimatormusic.htm)

ollee
12-12-2004, 01:32 AM
do any you guys get aussie hip hop - certainly not about to let itself outside "undie" territory, and has come a long way from the early days......


check Curse ov Dialect out of Melbourne... they're on Mush so obviously far more alligned with the wimpy American 'savant garde' than say, er, Bias B or Pegz. My pick is "All Cultures" off their last album which samples the theme from Profondo Rosso for chrissakes.

MBM
12-12-2004, 09:10 AM
I saw Cursed ov Dialect about 18 mths ago - and they seemed wilfully wacky. Not impressed.

Undie Hip? Cannibal Ox - The Cold Vein. Wonderful, wonderful album...

puretokyo
12-12-2004, 02:12 PM
Can Ox, starvin' harlem. The greatest. Funny thing is, I would never think of Ox as being undie hiphop; to me the Cold Vein LP just sounds like a 2002 reimagining of Enter the 36 Chambers - a long way from clouddead.

I have unconsciously reserved 'undie' for generally wimpy, faux-intellectual Mush-Anticon-etc wankery, an axis into which Def Jux really doesn't fit (beside maybe Lif and Aesop, neither of whom rock my boat).

MF Doom seems to offer something decent but I haven't delved yet.

Would people call Madlib undie? Because he definately sits closer to that stuff than Can Ox.

Finally, who else agrees that Vordul's new LP shits on Vast's LP?

mms
12-12-2004, 03:52 PM
cold vein was excellent, but it's the most proper hip hop record to come out on def jux.
mike ladd's welcome to the afterfuture was good too but some of the mc's ruined it for me with their blank verse clever cleverness. he's sort of been forgotten now hasn't he? he does all those concept albums. i bought the instrumentals again.
the new one on def jux hangar 18 is pretty good as well.
is jay dee undie hip hop? he's done track with mad lib, i really enjoy jay dee's music.
mf doom, never really dug his stuff, but he releases so much he's got a collectors following, some people are obsessed tho.
next prefuse lp has ghostface on etc, it's alright, next daelius is alright too.

question tho: is undie hip hop underground hip hop, i'd have thought not really, surely thats reserved for hip hop that's sort of locally based. undie hip hop is world wide and pretty big in comparison.

also undie hip hop generally just seems to intellectualise hip hop in a slightly indulgent way. Attempts at obscure poetry, Dylanisms and geetars, a sort of vegan sexlessness.
It also seems to fetishise hip hop's past in an indulgent way, the same kinda aging white b-boy thing you get with uk dj's like greenpiece etc.
It's as if they do this so they don't have to involve themselves with hip hop's politics and constant shifts forwards.

hint
12-12-2004, 04:56 PM
I rinsed cold vein when it came out... but haven't felt the need to go back to it for quite a while. as far as a sit down all-at-once listening experience goes, it's up there with the finest hip hop albums, definitely.

I haven't even thought about def jux for ages, it seems. funcrusher plus is one of my favourite ever LPs in any style and other one-off company flow-related releases have been great (juvenile technique and patriotism in particular). but def jux didn't really head where I was hoping it would head. some of el p's solo singles were strong, but the LP was too thick for me. if everything's distorted the brain eventually just interprets it as white noise and you go from edgy, dark and oppressive to background noise.... fantastic damage crossed that lne, I think.

MF doom is pretty much untouchable in my opinion. he's funny, but not childish (the beastie boys). he's experimental, but not obtuse (countless undie heads) . he's witty with his wordplay but not in a smartarse / ironic way (edan or paul barman). everyone should at least check 3rd bass' gas face, KMD's Mr. Hood and doom's own operation doomsday and vaudeville villain. I think the only reason his fans might come across as "collectors" is because he seems to change his name for each release - so simply looking for MF Doom releases will only turn up half a dozen records at most.

I never really got the hardcore praise jaydee seems to get from some circles, although he can certainly build a strong beat (I don't know and fuck the police spring to mind). I always assumed that slum village was precisely the kind of jazz-ish, smooth hip hop that more experimental types would despise, yet jaydee somehow became flavour of the month amongst electronica types. or, at least, that's how it seemed to me.

madlib just churns 'em out - some of it is inspirational and unique, some of it is forgettable and frustratingly vague. but I guess his strength is that before you have time to take stock, there's something new on the shelves that may well contain some of the good stuff. it's one hell of a tactic and it's paid off. I've always been more of a lootpack-style madlib fan rather than a quasimoto-style madlib fan.

I picked up on anticon from their first compilation mini LP onwards... got stuff like deep puddle dynamics, sole and them LPs... but after buying a few of those releases I started to feel like each new release that came along didn't really bring anything new to the table - it was like it had already come and gone in my life and I had all I needed from "that lot". I even have a few albums by the likes of sage francis and themselves that I swear I haven't even listened to past skipping through in the record shop and deciding it seemed "interesting".

I guess, for me, funcrusher plus represents that sweet spot between abandoning the boom bap and disappearing up your own arse.

I might even go as far as to say that funcrusher plus and operation doomsday are my favourite pair of undies. (someone had to do it) ;)

DavidD
12-12-2004, 05:58 PM
Madlib has dropped enough singles that made me go "whoa" for me to love him.

This year alone was the "Madvillainy" release which is easily one of the best albums of the year.
He also did the De La song "Shopping Bags" and the Vast Aire song "Look Mom No Hands" and I think the production on those is ace. Also keep an eye out for his remix of the Beastie's "Shake Your Rump."

I still love Cold Vein, Fantastic Damage and Funcrusher Plus. And I've always found the criticism of El-P's album to be overblown, but I love it and I like the way he raps and I like the dense production style.
Mr. Lif, Murs, hell even Aesop Rock have released some cool shit too, although I wouldn't say I love their albums like I do the above.

fldsfslmn
12-12-2004, 06:36 PM
I'm wondering if anyone on here has heard Vordul Mega's The Revolution of Yung Havoks yet? The press that I've read so far has been unanimous in finding it somewhat underwhelming, but I'm more interested in hearing a review straight from someone who loves Cannibal Ox as much as I do.

arcaNa
12-12-2004, 06:45 PM
...the cold vein is probably my favourite def jux album from the last 3 years...!could anyone on here maybe point me in the direction of other good alternative(?undie?hehe what a weird word)hiphop labels? ('cause where i am it's not exactly easy to find out about new shit,it takes years before record stores catch on... :( sigh.)
...love "Oxtrumentals" too...!

DavidD
12-12-2004, 08:07 PM
http://www.pitchforkmedia.com/record-reviews/comp/stones-throw/101.shtml

buddah baboons
12-12-2004, 09:13 PM
I'm wondering if anyone on here has heard Vordul Mega's The Revolution of Yung Havoks yet? The press that I've read so far has been unanimous in finding it somewhat underwhelming, but I'm more interested in hearing a review straight from someone who loves Cannibal Ox as much as I do.

The production is a lot straighter than the cold vein, it's got that heavy drums mid-nineties NYC thing going on. It's a very grounded record with no Vast, just hardship stories. C-Rayz and Jean Grae tracks are nice, rest I did find a bit underwhelming...

fldsfslmn
13-12-2004, 01:55 AM
The production is a lot straighter than the cold vein, it's got that heavy drums mid-nineties NYC thing going on. It's a very grounded record with no Vast, just hardship stories. C-Rayz and Jean Grae tracks are nice, rest I did find a bit underwhelming...

Hmmm... So maybe not worth purchasing?

hint
13-12-2004, 09:57 AM
Madlib has dropped enough singles that made me go "whoa" for me to love him.

This year alone was the "Madvillainy" release which is easily one of the best albums of the year.
He also did the De La song "Shopping Bags" and the Vast Aire song "Look Mom No Hands" and I think the production on those is ace. Also keep an eye out for his remix of the Beastie's "Shake Your Rump."

sure - madlib's one of the greats

madvillainy and shopping bags are very strong (although I think vaudeville villain is a better album than madvillainy). his beat for living legends that has just come out is also fresh, as are the beats he did for wildchild on his the jackal EP... but this year also saw the DJ rels album - pretty disappointing after the two 12"s, which I loved.

puretokyo
13-12-2004, 12:29 PM
re vordul - yung havoks


Hmmm... So maybe not worth purchasing?

to give a diff perspective, i found it amazing. the main singles are ill - handle that, with vast, and never gonna hurt again and spitamatic - really good shit and a lot closer to can ox than vast's solo. again, as mentioned above, its definitely more low-key, grounded, traditional, but done with such nice style and with that unique ox mentality.

try to download those couple of tracks and if they float, buy it - if you can't find the tracks then i'd say buy it anyway. i'm waiting for can ox to get back, but this was a very nice filler.


the LP was too thick for me. if everything's distorted the brain eventually just interprets it as white noise and you go from edgy, dark and oppressive to background noise.... fantastic damage crossed that lne, I think.

hmm, i agree that i find fandam hard to listen to, it doesn't appeal nearly as much as cold vein to me, but i find it makes a lot more sense given that el-p explained afterward that it was his attempt to do a bomb-squad/public enemy style of production. personally, i'm enjoying his current 'jiggy' style, but cold vein will always stand up, production-wise.

while we're on the subject, anyone else adore the 'weathermen' track they put together just after cold vein - it seemed to point to more in the 'vein', but we haven't been given anything similar since...

luka
24-12-2004, 04:26 AM
i endorse immortal technique. the beats are so-so but he'#s pretty compelling as a performer/lyricist.

#edit. I was on drugs at this time in my life.

luka
04-02-2016, 05:01 PM
Yo

Corpsey
04-02-2016, 06:44 PM
LoL